2026-07-15

Lex Fridman 速读：罗马帝国没有真正「分裂」，它只是一直在变

Lex Fridman 与 Anthony Kaldellis 从罗马王政讲到 1453 年，拆解拜占庭为何仍是东罗马、帝国如何靠制度适应危机并延续两千多年。

这期在回答什么问题

Lex Fridman 与芝加哥大学古典学教授 Anthony Kaldellis 的第 498 期长谈，表面上是在讲罗马帝国和拜占庭帝国的兴衰，核心却是在追问：一个政治共同体经历王政、共和国、帝制、东西分治、宗教转向和多次征服之后，什么时候才算「结束」？Kaldellis 的出发点很明确：所谓拜占庭帝国，在当时人的法律、身份和政治记忆里仍然是罗马帝国的延续。1

先给结论

这期节目最重要的变化，是把「罗马帝国灭亡」从一个单一日期改成一条两千多年的连续过程。西罗马在五世纪失去政治控制，并不等于罗马国家、罗马公民身份或东部帝国同时消失；东罗马在君士坦丁堡继续以 Roman Empire 的名义运作，直到 1453 年君士坦丁堡陷落。Kaldellis 也不把这种连续性讲成静止不变：帝国之所以能活这么久，恰恰因为它不断改造税制、行政、军队、宗教和身份。

1. 「拜占庭」首先是一个后来的命名

Kaldellis 认为，要求东部帝国证明自己不是罗马帝国的人，才负有举证责任。东部居民称自己为 Romans，国家的法律和政治机构也把自身理解为罗马国家；「Byzantine Empire」更多是后来的历史学命名。这个争论并不是术语洁癖，因为叫法会影响我们理解历史连续性：如果把 476 年当作罗马的终点，之后一千年的东部国家就会被误读为另一个文明的附录。

嘉宾的研究背景解释了他为什么有资格从这个角度谈论问题。芝加哥大学资料显示，他是古典学教授，研究方向包括罗马帝国、拜占庭、希腊史学和古典传统传承；他的代表作是 2023 年出版的《The New Roman Empire: A History of Byzantium》。2

2. 2200 年不是一条直线，而是三次制度转型

节目用一个非常大的时间尺度来组织材料：从传统上认为的罗马建城时间 753 BC，到 1453 年君士坦丁堡陷落，罗马政治共同体延续超过两千年。Kaldellis 把它粗略分为王政、共和国和帝制三大阶段，再说明帝制内部的权力中心从罗马逐渐转向君士坦丁堡。

他同时提醒，转型通常不是某一天突然发生。共和国结束与奥古斯都建立帝制之间有内战和权力重组；东西部的差异也在很长时间里形成；「晚期罗马帝国」则常用来描述戴克里先和君士坦丁改革后，更依赖税收、行政和官僚系统的国家。1

3. 内战频繁，不等于军事独裁

访谈最有张力的部分之一，是对三世纪危机的讨论。节目开头就给出一个惊人的事实：大约五十年里有 26 位皇帝被杀，许多皇帝是将军，而且死于自己的军队之手；内战、通货膨胀、经济崩溃和瘟疫叠加在一起，看起来像国家随时会失控。3

但 Kaldellis 不愿因此把东罗马简单定义为军事独裁。他的理由是，军队虽然经常参与皇帝更替，却极少被用作日常社会控制工具。帝国的统治还要依靠法律、税收、行政、地方精英和公民对国家的预期。军队能决定谁坐上皇位，不代表它可以替代整个社会的治理机制。

这一区分很重要：政治暴力的频率和国家治理的性质不是同一个变量。一个政权可能拥有频繁的宫廷和军事斗争，同时仍然通过法制和行政程序维持普通人的生活秩序。

4. 卡拉卡拉敕令与「公民」的扩大

节目把卡拉卡拉敕令作为理解帝国身份的入口。把公民身份扩大到帝国范围，不只是象征性的普惠，也会改变税收、法律保护和国家对居民的定义。罗马帝国不是靠一种单一民族身份维持，而是不断把不同地区、语言和传统的人纳入一个可征税、可诉讼、可服役、可参与政治记忆的共同体。

因此，罗马化不能只理解成文化同化。它也包括制度进入日常生活：一个人是否被承认为 Roman citizen，影响他和国家的关系；国家是否能够在地方征税、处理争议和提供保护，影响这种身份是否有实际内容。

5. 三世纪危机之后，国家靠行政能力重组

戴克里先和君士坦丁的改革，是节目中连接危机与新帝国形态的桥梁。更复杂的税制、更强的行政机构、更明确的官僚层级和新的权力中心，帮助帝国在严重危机后重新组织资源。代价是国家变得更重、更深入地方生活，也更依赖持续征税。

这条因果链不能被简化为「改革救活了帝国」。改革同时制造了新的负担和新的权力竞争，但它说明帝国的韧性来自组织能力，而不只是某个皇帝的个人魅力。君士坦丁的宗教选择又把基督教带进帝国权力中心，使国家的合法性、教会组织和社会身份出现新的组合。

6. 西罗马的「灭亡」是失去控制，不是所有东西同时消失

节目把 476 年放回更长的过程里。西部的皇帝和中央政府逐渐失去对税收、军队和地方政治的控制，日耳曼军事集团和地方权力接管了部分职能；但罗马法律、城市、宗教组织和政治语言并没有在一个夜晚全部消失。

东部帝国后来也经历了领土缩小、宗教冲突和军事失败，却没有因为失去某一块地就停止称自己为罗马。把「西部中央权力结束」和「罗马文明结束」分开，能避免一种过于整齐的历史叙事：先有辉煌，再在一个日期坠落。

7. 宦官、税收与权力：帝国为什么没有只剩皇帝和军队

节目专门谈到宦官和行政权力。宦官并不只是宫廷里的附属角色，在某些时期，他们可以成为非常有能力的官员和将领。Kaldellis 举到 Narses 的例子：这位年长的宦官将领在查士丁尼时代击败哥特人，说明能力、网络和政治信任未必遵循现代人对身份的直觉。

税收则是帝国持续存在的硬底座。军队、官僚和城市秩序都要靠资源维持；税制过重会制造反抗和逃亡，税制崩坏又会让国家失去行动能力。罗马的长期生存不是因为它找到了一种永远正确的制度，而是因为它在不同危机中不断调整抽取资源和分配权力的方式。

8. 查士丁尼、阿拉伯征服与「活得久」的代价

查士丁尼重新征服西部部分领土，节目把它放在一个更复杂的判断里：军事成功可以恢复旧疆域的象征，却也会消耗税收、军队和政治注意力。随后发生的阿拉伯征服，又让东部帝国失去大片领土。帝国缩小之后，反而形成了更集中、更易防守、组织方式不同的国家。

Kaldellis 对帝国长寿的解释不是「它一直强大」，而是它能在失败后换一种形态继续存在。国家边界、宗教语言、军队结构、财政重心和身份叙事都可以改变，只要核心政治共同体仍然能重新组织资源并让人相信它值得延续。

9. 这期最值得带走的历史方法

第一，不要把后来的分类当成当时人的自我理解。第二，不要用一个日期替代制度、身份和权力逐步变化的过程。第三，国家的延续不等于疆域不变；失去领土、改换首都和更换宗教语言，都可能发生在同一个政治共同体内部。

对今天的读者来说，这不是把罗马帝国硬套到当代，而是提醒我们区分「名称」「机构」「身份」「领土」和「控制能力」。一个组织什么时候结束，取决于你问的是哪一层问题。

术语小词典

东罗马帝国 / 拜占庭帝国：现代历史学常用「拜占庭帝国」指称以君士坦丁堡为中心的东部罗马国家；本期嘉宾强调，当时人长期把它视为罗马帝国本身。
晚期罗马帝国：通常指三世纪危机后到七世纪初前后，税制、官僚行政和皇权结构显著重组的时期。
三世纪危机：三世纪中后期的皇帝频繁更替、内战、经济危机和外部压力的复合危机，节目提到约五十年内有 26 位皇帝被杀。
卡拉卡拉敕令：皇帝卡拉卡拉时期扩大罗马公民身份的法令，节目用它讨论公民、税收和帝国共同体的关系。
世界帝国 / 政治共同体：文中使用「政治共同体」是为了强调制度、身份和共同记忆的延续，不把帝国只等同于一张固定疆域地图。

人物背景

Anthony Kaldellis 是芝加哥大学古典学教授，拥有密歇根大学历史学博士学位，研究罗马帝国、拜占庭、希腊史学和古典传统传承。他的《The New Roman Empire: A History of Byzantium》是本期讨论东罗马连续性的主要学术背景之一。2

值不值得完整收听

值得。它不是把古罗马历史压成一份皇帝名单，而是用「为什么一个国家能在不断改变后仍被认为是同一个国家」这个问题串起政治暴力、税收、宗教、军队、身份和历史命名。对不熟悉拜占庭的读者，前半小时的术语澄清尤其重要；对熟悉罗马史的人，后半段关于国家韧性和历史叙事的讨论更有回味。

完整中英双语逐字转录稿

以下内容来自 Lex Fridman 官方提供的完整人工转录稿。每段先保留英文原文，紧跟中文译文；原稿注明人工转录可能存在错误。讲话人姓名保留官方标注，时间轴按每 10 分钟增加章节标记，同时保留原稿更精确的段落时间戳。官方原稿：3。

Episode highlight

[00:00]

Anthony Kaldellis 00:00:00

英文原文：We’re talking about a society that was right in the middle of one of the main corridors of empire building and new religions in the world. This is the most dangerous neighborhood that you can possibly live in.

中文译文：我们谈论的是一个位于帝国建设和世界新宗教主要走廊之一中间的社会。这是您可能居住的最危险的社区。

Lex Fridman 00:00:13

英文原文：26 emperors were murdered in a period of 50 years.

中文译文：50 年间有 26 位皇帝被谋杀。

Anthony Kaldellis 00:00:18

英文原文：Yes. It’s tremendous instability.

中文译文：是的。这是巨大的不稳定。

Lex Fridman 00:00:21

英文原文：Almost all were—of these emperors—were generals, and almost all were murdered by their men. So civil war was the norm, hyperinflation, economic crash, plus there’s a plague. There’s just a lot of chaos.

中文译文：这些皇帝几乎都是将军，而且几乎都被手下谋杀了。所以内战是常态，恶性通货膨胀，经济崩溃，再加上瘟疫。只是有很多混乱。

Anthony Kaldellis 00:00:34

英文原文：Here’s why I don’t think the Eastern Roman Empire is a military dictatorship. Even though, again, the emperors control the armies and the armies themselves will often have a say in who becomes emperor, like through the civil wars that we mentioned. The reason why I don’t think it’s a military dictatorship is because they almost never, very, very, very rarely use the army as an instrument of social control. Sometimes these eunuchs were extremely competent like Narses, Justinian’s general, who defeated the Goths in Italy in this massive battle. Like, this guy was a total hardass. And he’s this little old man. He was very old, and he was tiny, and he was a eunuch, and the Goths laughed at him, but he had the last laugh.

中文译文：这就是为什么我不认为东罗马帝国是一个军事独裁国家。尽管皇帝控制着军队，而军队本身通常对谁成为皇帝有发言权，就像我们提到的内战一样。我之所以不认为这是军事独裁，是因为他们几乎从不、非常、非常、很少使用军队作为社会控制的工具。有时这些太监非常能干，就像查士丁尼的将军纳尔塞斯一样，他在意大利的这场大规模战役中击败了哥特人。就像，这家伙是个十足的硬汉。他就是这个小老头。他年纪很大，个子很小，而且还是个太监，哥特人都嘲笑他，但他笑到了最后。

Introduction

Lex Fridman 00:01:24

英文原文：The following is a conversation with Anthony Kaldellis, a historian of the Eastern Roman Empire, also known as the Byzantine Empire. This is a Lex Fridman podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description, where you can also find links to contact me, ask questions, give feedback, and so on. And now, dear friends, here’s Anthony Kaldellis.

中文译文：以下是与东罗马帝国（又称拜占庭帝国）历史学家安东尼·卡德里斯的对话。这是莱克斯·弗里德曼的播客。为了支持它，请在描述中查看我们的赞助商，您还可以在其中找到联系我、提出问题、提供反馈等的链接。现在，亲爱的朋友们，这是安东尼·卡德里斯。

The Roman Empire and the Byzantine Empire

Lex Fridman 00:01:51

英文原文：You’ve described that the Byzantine Empire is the Roman Empire, that calling it the Byzantine Empire is an invention of historians writing long after the empire has collapsed, that the people of that time considered themselves Romans, and that the so-called Byzantine Empire never actually existed, that it was, in every legal and cultural sense, the Roman Empire continuing unbroken.

中文译文：您描述过，拜占庭帝国就是罗马帝国，称其为拜占庭帝国是帝国崩溃很久之后历史学家的发明，当时的人们认为自己是罗马人，所谓的拜占庭帝国实际上从未存在过，从所有法律和文化意义上来说，它都是罗马帝国，从未被打破。

Lex Fridman 00:02:18

英文原文：So let’s get our terms right in the grand historical context. What is the Byzantine Empire, and why should we just call it the Roman Empire?

中文译文：因此，让我们在宏大的历史背景下正确理解我们的术语。什么是拜占庭帝国，为什么我们称其为罗马帝国？

Anthony Kaldellis 00:02:28

英文原文：So Lex, the burden of proof is on those who would assert that what we’ve been calling the Byzantine Empire is something other- … than the Roman Empire, because all of our sources are very clear about this. And we’ve known about this. We’ve always known about it. It’s almost a form of cognitive dissonance, right? It’s like when you know something is the case, but you carry on as if it’s not.

中文译文：所以莱克斯，举证责任在于那些断言我们所说的拜占庭帝国是……而不是罗马帝国的人，因为我们所有的消息来源都非常清楚这一点。我们已经知道这一点。我们一直都知道这一点。这几乎是一种认知失调，对吧？这就像当你知道某件事是这样的，但你却继续说，好像事实并非如此。

Anthony Kaldellis 00:02:47

英文原文：So the Eastern Roman Empire, this is the direct continuation of the ancient Roman Empire in the East, right? Everybody knows the Western Empire fell in the fifth century. And for many conceptions of Western history, that was sufficient. Like, that’s when we just called it. The Roman Empire fell in the fifth century. And we kind of, yeah, we kind of know that the eastern half survived, but we don’t want to include that in our cultural genealogy. And so we kind of pretend that it became something else. But in fact, it called itself the Roman Empire. Its subjects were Roman citizens. They called themselves Romans all the way down through to the end and beyond.

中文译文：那么东罗马帝国，这就是东方古罗马帝国的直接延续吧？大家都知道西方帝国在五世纪灭亡了。对于西方历史的许多概念来说，这就足够了。就像，那就是我们刚刚打电话的时候。罗马帝国于五世纪灭亡。是的，我们知道东半部幸存下来，但我们不想将其纳入我们的文化谱系中。所以我们假装它变成了别的东西。但事实上，它自称为罗马帝国。它的臣民是罗马公民。他们自始至终都称自己为罗马人。

Anthony Kaldellis 00:03:22

英文原文：So there are a number of reasons why Western Europeans wanted to think that the Eastern Empire is something different, and those reasons have created these models where they called it the Empire of the Greeks for 1,000 years, then they switched to Byzantine Empire for very political reasons. Now that’s collapsing. So we’re now moving into a phase where we have the long Roman Empire. We recognize that the history of the Roman state, the Roman polity, is something that lasts an extraordinarily long time. Very unique, almost, in history, from antiquity, like the archaic period, down to the 15th century.

中文译文：因此，西欧人想要认为东帝国是不同的东西有很多原因，这些原因创造了这些模型，他们称其为希腊帝国一千年，然后出于政治原因转向拜占庭帝国。现在这种情况正在崩溃。所以我们现在正进入一个拥有悠久罗马帝国的阶段。我们认识到，罗马国家、罗马政体的历史持续了非常长的时间。从古代（如古代时期）一直到 15 世纪，几乎在历史上都是非常独特的。

Lex Fridman 00:03:59

英文原文：I think it would be really nice to actually look just for a brief moment at the grand scale of the full Roman state as it lasted for over 2,200 years. So its founding, 753 BC, to let’s say the fall of Constantinople in 1453 AD. So can we try to give a big picture overview of everything that happened?

中文译文：我认为，如果能够短暂地参观一下整个罗马国家的宏伟规模，因为它持续了 2,200 多年，那就太好了。所以它的成立时间是公元前 753 年，比方说君士坦丁堡的陷落是在公元 1453 年。那么我们是否可以尝试对所发生的一切进行总体概述？

Anthony Kaldellis 00:04:25

英文原文：Okay, so first we have a period of the kings. This is almost legendary, from like the eighth century BC down to around 510 BC. So this is when Rome is ruled by a series of local kings. The kings are expelled, and the republic, or what we call the republic is instituted, and this is a regime that’s governed by mostly an aristocracy, but with cooperation from the people of Rome. In various ways, the arrangements change over the centuries. So that lasts for about five centuries. And then we have the end of the republic in the era of Julius Caesar and Augustus Caesar, when the civil wars lead to the creation of an imperial monarchy-

中文译文：好的，首先我们有一个国王时期。这几乎是传奇，从公元前 8 世纪一直到公元前 510 年左右。这就是罗马由一系列当地国王统治的时期。国王被驱逐，共和国成立，或者我们所说的共和国成立，这是一个主要由贵族统治的政权，但也得到罗马人民的合作。几个世纪以来，这些安排以各种方式发生了变化。所以这持续了大约五个世纪。然后，在朱利叶斯·凯撒和奥古斯都·凯撒时代，共和国结束了，内战导致了帝国君主制的建立——

Anthony Kaldellis 00:05:05

英文原文：… right, under Augustus. So that’s, we date that roughly either, yeah, 27 BC, something like that. And thereafter, it is an imperial monarchy for the next millennium and a half. Very broadly, we can divide that into two phases, one where the center of power is in Rome, and one where it’s in Constantinople. And, you know, we can debate the dates of when that transition takes place. These big transitions usually take place over long periods of time. They’re not, like, very sudden. So that’s the big picture. Kings, republic, imperial monarchy.

中文译文：……对，在奥古斯都统治下。所以，我们大致确定了日期，是的，公元前 27 年，类似的事情。此后，它在接下来的一个半世纪里都是帝国君主制。从广义上讲，我们可以将其分为两个阶段，一个阶段是权力中心在罗马，另一个阶段是在君士坦丁堡。而且，你知道，我们可以讨论过渡发生的日期。这些重大转变通常会持续很长一段时间。它们并不是非常突然。这就是大局。国王、共和制、君主制。

Lex Fridman 00:05:42

英文原文：The Roman Kingdom, the Roman Republic, the Roman Empire.

中文译文：罗马王国、罗马共和国、罗马帝国。

Anthony Kaldellis 00:05:46

英文原文：Yes.

中文译文：是的。

Lex Fridman 00:05:46

英文原文：And then the West and East Roman Empire.

中文译文：然后是西罗马帝国和东罗马帝国。

2,200 Years of Roman History

Anthony Kaldellis 00:05:49

英文原文：Yes.

中文译文：是的。

Lex Fridman 00:05:50

英文原文：And then maybe what are the different terms that we could be using for the Byzantine Empire, including Byzantium? Is it also fair to say the Late Roman Empire?

中文译文：那么，也许我们可以对拜占庭帝国（包括拜占庭）使用哪些不同的术语？说晚期罗马帝国也公平吗？

Anthony Kaldellis 00:06:03

英文原文：So Late Roman Empire we use for both east and west, starting around the reign of Diocletian maybe, even a bit earlier, so during the third century AD. And that goes down to maybe the early seventh century. So that period we call Late Roman Empire. And if you ask me to define its principal characteristics, it would probably be the tax system and the administration, the bureaucracy— … of the later Roman Empire is that that comes from mostly Diocletian and Constantine’s reforms.

中文译文：因此，我们在东方和西方都使用晚期罗马帝国，可能是从戴克里先统治时期开始的，甚至更早一些，所以是在公元三世纪。这可能可以追溯到七世纪初。所以那个时期我们称之为晚期罗马帝国。如果你让我定义它的主要特征，它可能是税收制度和行政管理、官僚机构……后来的罗马帝国的大部分来自戴克里先和君士坦丁的改革。

Lex Fridman 00:06:32

英文原文：And Diocletian was in the 3rd century.

中文译文：戴克里先是在三世纪。

Anthony Kaldellis 00:06:35

英文原文：Yes, 284 to 305 AD. Yes. A very important reformer.

中文译文：是的，公元 284 年到 305 年。是的。一位非常重要的改革家。

Lex Fridman 00:06:39

英文原文：And we’ll talk about it, but let’s just do this whirlwind, and hopefully there’ll be automagical images somewhere overlaid, but—

中文译文：我们会讨论它，但让我们来一下旋风，希望在某处重叠有自动魔法图像，但是——

Anthony Kaldellis 00:06:46

英文原文：Okay.

中文译文：好的。

Lex Fridman 00:06:46

英文原文：So in 753 BC, Rome, a small city state, is founded, and in 509 BC, the kings are overthrown, and the Roman Republic is born. 390 BC, the Gauls sack Rome, and this, I believe, among other events throughout its history, is a formative trauma that hardens Rome’s security obsession. It turns out, throughout its history, people want to attack from different directions, and so you have to defend. So there’s two wars, as we’re actually saying off mic. There’s two kinds of military operations. One is wars of conquest and expansion, and one is more defensive. And we’ll talk about how the military changes throughout its history to allocate more effort to one versus the other.

中文译文：于是公元前 753 年，小城邦罗马成立，公元前 509 年，诸王被推翻，罗马共和国诞生。公元前 390 年，高卢人洗劫了罗马，我相信，除了罗马历史上的其他事件之外，这也是一个形成性的创伤，强化了罗马对安全的痴迷。事实证明，纵观其历史，人们想要从不同的方向进攻，所以你必须防守。所以有两场战争，正如我们实际上关掉麦克风所说的那样。军事行动有两种。一种是征服和扩张战争，一种是防御性战争。我们将讨论军队在其历史上如何变化，以便为一方分配更多的精力。

Lex Fridman 00:07:40

英文原文：In 264 to 146 BC, the Punic Wars and the survival against Hannibal transform Rome into a Mediterranean superpower. Then, like you mentioned, Caesar in 49 to 31 BC, Caesar’s crossing of the Rubicon to assassination of Caesar to the Battle of Actium, and then the Civil War dismantles the Republic and concentrates power in a single ruler, Octavian, AKA Augustus, the first Roman emperor, let’s say. Then 27 BC, Augustus founds the Principate, really low-key monarchy. And so officially, that ends the Republic, and then that begins 27 BC to 180 AD, the Pax Romana, which is a period of relative peace and stability. And a lot of the emperors we know of, the sexy, popular emperors all come from that period.

中文译文：公元前 264 至 146 年，布匿战争和战胜汉尼拔的胜利将罗马转变为地中海超级大国。然后，就像你提到的，公元前 49 至 31 年的凯撒，凯撒越过卢比孔河，刺杀凯撒，然后是亚克兴战役，然后内战瓦解了共和国，将权力集中在一个统治者身上，屋大维，又名奥古斯都，罗马第一位皇帝，比方说。然后公元前 27 年，奥古斯都建立了元首制，真正低调的君主制。正式地，共和国结束了，然后从公元前 27 年到公元 180 年开始，即罗马和平时期，这是一个相对和平与稳定的时期。而我们认识的很多皇帝，那些性感、受欢迎的皇帝都来自那个时期。

Lex Fridman 00:08:36

英文原文：Marcus Aurelius, who I’m a big fan of, from that period. Then that takes us to 284 AD, the guy we mentioned, Diocletian, who rebuilds the state. Emperors drop the first citizen mask, this perception of the way, and we’ll talk about this, the, the persona that’s presented by the state. 312 AD, Constantine defeats Maxentius at the Milvian Bridge to become the sole ruler of the western half of the empire, and then founds Constantinople in 330 AD. East and West are split in 395 AD. Visigoths sack Rome in 410 AD. The West falls in 476 AD as the last Western emperor is deposed. And then we sort of focus more on the East Roman Empire with 527. In the 6th century, Justinian’s reign. In the 7th century, Heraclius defeats Persia and then loses against the Arabs.

中文译文：我是那个时期的马库斯·奥勒留（Marcus Aurelius）的忠实粉丝。然后我们就到了公元 284 年，就是我们提到的戴克里先，他重建了国家。皇帝们摘下了第一个公民面具，这种对方式的看法，我们将讨论这个，这个，国家所呈现的角色。公元 312 年，君士坦丁在米尔维安桥击败马克森提乌斯，成为帝国西半部的唯一统治者，并于公元 330 年建立君士坦丁堡。公元 395 年，东西方分裂。西哥特人于公元 410 年洗劫了罗马。公元 476 年，西方最后一位皇帝被废黜，西方陷落。然后我们更多地关注公元 527 年的东罗马帝国。公元 6 世纪，查士丁尼统治时期。 7 世纪，希拉克略击败波斯，又败给阿拉伯人。

Lex Fridman 00:09:36

英文原文：There’s the Arab conquest continuing in the 7th century. In the 8th, the Arab siege of Constantinople fails. There’s the Macedonian dynasty that you have an excellent book about. And then the Crusades, and then eventually leading to Constantinople falling in 1453 AD. As a person who understands the full journey of it with a focus on East Roman history, is there obvious glaring holes or incorrect things in what I just said?

中文译文：公元七世纪，阿拉伯人的征服仍在继续。 8 日，阿拉伯人围攻君士坦丁堡失败。你有一本关于马其顿王朝的好书。然后是十字军东征，最终导致君士坦丁堡于公元 1453 年陷落。作为一个了解整个历史、关注东罗马历史的人，我刚才说的有没有明显的漏洞或者不正确的地方？

[10:00]

Anthony Kaldellis 00:10:14

英文原文：No, nothing incorrect. I would say if you wanted to produce a sort of very swift timeline of its history, it’s obviously important to focus on the moments when lots of territory was lost to foreign invaders, and these are actually three main moments. There’s the Arab conquests in the 630s. This is a decade. In a decade, that war was lost. It is the Seljuk Turk conquest of Asia Minor, modern Turkey, in the 1070s, and that was very swift and partly reversed afterwards, but only partly. And then there’s the Fourth Crusade, 1204, when the armies from mostly France sack, conquer Constantinople, and dismember the empire as much as they could. It didn’t last that long. The Romans managed to regroup and recover, but those are the three main crisis points.

中文译文：不，没有什么不正确的。我想说，如果你想制作一个非常快速的历史时间表，那么显然重要的是要关注大量领土被外国入侵者占领的时刻，而这实际上是三个主要时刻。 630 年代有阿拉伯人的征服。这是十年。十年后，那场战争失败了。这是塞尔柱土耳其人在 1070 年代对小亚细亚（现代土耳其）的征服，这一过程非常迅速，后来部分逆转，但只是部分逆转。然后是 1204 年第四次十字军东征，当时主要来自法国的军队洗劫、征服君士坦丁堡，并尽可能地肢解帝国。它并没有持续那么久。罗马人设法重新集结并恢复元气，但这是三个主要的危机点。

Anthony Kaldellis 00:11:16

英文原文：They are very swift, but they cause incredible damage. For all the rest of its history, it is a state and society that is generally sort of consolidating, you know, regrouping, and generally engaged in slow but steady economic growth, territorial expansion on a small scale, but steady. So we can talk about this. It’s… I think it’s an important thing to keep in mind about the big picture, that the defeats were swift and kind of, you know, terrible but most of its history is one of slow growth.

中文译文：它们速度非常快，但造成的伤害却令人难以置信。在其余下的历史中，这个国家和社会总体上在某种程度的巩固、重组，总体上进行缓慢但稳定的经济增长，小规模但稳定的领土扩张。所以我们可以谈谈这个。这是......我认为从大局来看，记住这一点很重要，失败是迅速的，而且有点，你知道，可怕，但它的大部分历史都是缓慢增长的。

Lex Fridman 00:12:00

英文原文：There’s some traumatic events that have a big impact, but a lot of the developments we’ll talk about it might seem or feel like there’s a particular moment when those developments or changes in the way the government or the military is structured arise, but really it’s a gradual process.

中文译文：有一些创伤性事件会产生重大影响，但我们将讨论的许多事态发展可能看起来或感觉像是在某个特定时刻，政府或军队的结构方式出现了这些发展或变化，但实际上这是一个渐进的过程。

Anthony Kaldellis 00:12:18

英文原文：Exactly.

中文译文：确切地。

Lex Fridman 00:12:19

英文原文：And so that’s the tension we have to be constantly dancing with.

中文译文：这就是我们必须不断应对的紧张气氛。

Anthony Kaldellis 00:12:21

英文原文：Yeah, so as historians, this is a point of method, and it’s very important. There are moments when, like, individuals with a great deal of power make choices that impact everybody else and have, you know, long-term consequences downstream. Constantine’s conversion to Christianity, for example, right? Not something that anybody could have or did predict. Okay. Otherwise, most of the developments that we identify by specific dates, like you mentioned 395, the division of the eastern and the western empires, those are conventional dates that we use to actually capture what is in fact a much longer process. There was no split between the two halves. It was one among many allocations of jurisdiction to, like, one son and another son in the east and the west.

中文译文：是的，所以作为历史学家，这是一个方法点，而且非常重要。有时，拥有巨大权力的个人会做出影响其他所有人的选择，并且对下游产生长期影响。例如，君士坦丁皈依基督教，对吧？不是任何人都可以拥有或预测到的。好的。除此之外，我们通过具体日期确定的大多数发展，就像你提到的 395 年，东西方帝国的分裂，这些都是传统的日期，我们用它们来实际捕捉实际上是一个更长的过程。两半之间没有分裂。这是对东部和西部的一个儿子和另一个儿子的众多管辖权分配之一。

Anthony Kaldellis 00:13:09

英文原文：The two halves were subsequently reunited, then they kind of divided again among different emperors. It’s just a process, and so we sometimes use fixed dates for what is in fact a process. Or for 476, the fall of the Western Empire, that’s just the last date. It’s actually a very long process that took decades. Right? So that’s just something to keep in mind, that sometimes we’re talking about processes, sometimes we’re talking about very discrete events with long-term consequences. Yeah.

中文译文：这两部分随后重新结合，然后又在不同的皇帝手中再次分裂。这只是一个过程，因此我们有时会使用固定日期来表示实际上是一个过程。或者对于 476 年，即西罗马帝国的灭亡，这只是最后一个日期。这实际上是一个非常漫长的过程，需要几十年的时间。正确的？所以要记住这一点，有时我们谈论的是流程，有时我们谈论的是具有长期后果的非常离散的事件。是的。

Lex Fridman 00:13:37

英文原文：Maybe an impossible question for a Roman state that lasted over 2,200 years, but is there a kind of through line, a thread, a soul that runs through the entire history of the Roman Empire? As you said, it’s a slow transformation and evolution. But if we dare call the whole thing Roman, Rome, the Roman state—

中文译文：对于一个延续了 2200 多年的罗马国家来说，这也许是一个不可能的问题，但是否有一种贯穿整个罗马帝国历史的主线、一根线、一个灵魂呢？正如你所说，这是一个缓慢的转变和演变。但如果我们敢称整个事物为罗马、罗马、罗马国家——

Anthony Kaldellis 00:14:00

英文原文：Yes

中文译文：是的

Lex Fridman 00:14:00

英文原文：… is there some aspect, some characteristics that run through the whole thing?

中文译文：……是否有某些方面、某些特征贯穿整个事情？

Anthony Kaldellis 00:14:05

英文原文：I think so, yes. By the way, you know the metaphor of the Ship of Theseus? Okay. So in case the audience doesn’t know it, this is when there’s a ship, and it’s, you know, at sea, and over time, like, every component of that ship is replaced with some other component, so that by the end of the story, it has none of the original parts. But it’s, like, in a certain sense still that ship because of the story, right? The… Okay. So Roman history is different from, let’s say, Greek history or Christian history, right? Christian history is the story of a religion. It can be in any country, among any ethnic group. It’s here, there, right? It’s everywhere. But you still have histories of Christianity. It’s the same with, say, Greek culture—

中文译文：我想是的，是的。顺便问一下，你知道忒修斯之船的比喻吗？好的。所以，以防万一观众不知道，这是有一艘船的时候，你知道，它在海上，随着时间的推移，那艘船的每个部件都被其他部件取代，所以到故事结束时，它已经没有原来的部件了。但从某种意义上说，这艘船仍然是因为这个故事，对吧？那个……好吧。那么罗马历史不同于希腊历史或基督教历史，对吗？基督教历史是宗教的故事。它可以在任何国家、任何种族群体中。在这里，那里，对吗？它无处不在。但你仍然有基督教的历史。比如说，希腊文化也是如此——

Anthony Kaldellis 00:14:48

英文原文：… or your Greek literature, right? It’s not a function of a particular state. Ancient Greeks were famously never united in a state. But it’s people who culturally accept that tradition as their kind of elite prestige culture and engage with Homer and Philo- and Plato and so forth. And they can be anywhere. Roman history is not like that. Roman history is very specifically the history of a state or a political community. And so this is the community of the Roman people, the Roman citizens. And it is in gradual evolution, but at no point is there a rupture in that history such that its members would ever think that something dramatic had changed, and that they’re no longer part of that story.

中文译文：......或者你的希腊文学，对吗？它不是特定状态的函数。众所周知，古希腊人从来没有统一过一个国家。但人们在文化上接受这种传统作为他们的精英声望文化，并与荷马、斐罗和柏拉图等人交往。他们可以在任何地方。罗马历史并非如此。罗马历史非常具体地是一个国家或一个政治共同体的历史。这就是罗马人民、罗马公民的共同体。它是在逐渐演变的，但历史上从来没有出现过断裂，以至于其成员会认为发生了戏剧性的变化，并且他们不再是那个故事的一部分。

Anthony Kaldellis 00:15:33

英文原文：So in the same way as the, as the ship I just mentioned, in other words, it’s the narrative that you tell about it where the changes that take place to it make sense only when you see them within the context of that story. It’s the same with Roman history. Yes, there are changes. Like, eventually everything changes. But it happens so gradually that it doesn’t seem that way to anyone living in it. And so the narrative of the history of the Roman people is what holds all of this together.

中文译文：因此，就像我刚才提到的那艘船一样，换句话说，它是你讲述的故事，只有当你在故事的背景下看到它们时，它所发生的变化才有意义。罗马历史也是如此。是的，有变化。就像，最终一切都会改变。但它发生得如此缓慢，以至于生活在其中的人似乎都不是这样的。因此，罗马人民的历史叙述将这一切联系在一起。

Lex Fridman 00:16:02

英文原文：How important is it that, so you mentioned Greek culture. So a lot of my friends who are Greek are extremely proud of being Greek. There’s certain cultures that are proud.

中文译文：这有多重要，所以你提到了希腊文化。所以我的很多希腊朋友都为自己是希腊人而感到非常自豪。有些文化是令人自豪的。

Anthony Kaldellis 00:16:12

英文原文：Sure.

中文译文：当然。

Lex Fridman 00:16:13

英文原文：And it’s not a momentary ephemeral thing. It feels like a thing that has lasted for many generations. And so that is an engine that propagates through time that carries that culture forward. And so does a similar thing apply for the Roman Empire in a different way? Maybe ’cause you say it’s a political kind of community, that means a set of ideals. And we’ll talk about, because those ideals become even more concretized and explicit, I think, through the East Roman Empire, because one of the things you talk about is that the citizens of the empire are kind of all connected, that they are-

中文译文：这不是一个短暂的事情。感觉就像是一件已经持续了好几代人的事情。因此，这是一个随着时间传播、推动文化前进的引擎。那么类似的事情是否以不同的方式适用于罗马帝国呢？也许因为你说这是一个政治类型的社区，这意味着一套理想。我们会谈论，因为我认为，通过东罗马帝国，这些理想变得更加具体和明确，因为你谈论的一件事是帝国的公民都是相互联系的，他们是——

Lex Fridman 00:16:53

英文原文：… engaged in this whole sort of machinery. Anyway, that’s a complicated way of asking, is, is there some elements that Greek pride, dare I speak, is there some kind of Roman pride that propagates the thing?

中文译文：……从事这整类机械工作。不管怎样，这是一个复杂的问题，我敢说，是否有一些希腊自豪感的元素，是否有某种罗马自豪感在传播这种东西？

Anthony Kaldellis 00:17:06

英文原文：Oh, there totally is. You can find authors and historical agents who definitely display this or talk about it. But we don’t wanna make that the center of the story or the basis for any analysis because… So what you’re observing in your Greek friends is also the result of modern nation building, is it’s the result of modern systems education, and sort of national identities, and these are fostered and created through all kinds of media and institutions. It’s, it’s just a different situation altogether. What you find in ancient republics or medieval states is more something like a consensus to be ruled, to be, to rule and to be ruled in this particular political community. Now, some members of it may definitely, and in fact did have this kind of pride.

中文译文：噢，完全有。你可以找到明确展示或谈论这一点的作者和历史代理人。但我们不想把它作为故事的中心或任何分析的基础，因为……所以你在希腊朋友身上观察到的也是现代国家建设的结果，是现代系统教育和某种民族认同的结果，而这些是通过各种媒体和机构培育和创造的。是的，这只是完全不同的情况。你在古代共和国或中世纪国家中发现的更像是在这个特定的政治共同体中被统治、存在、统治和被统治的共识。现在，它的一些成员肯定也确实有这样的骄傲。

Anthony Kaldellis 00:17:54

英文原文：I’ll give you an example. So there’s an ambassador in the sixth century, and he’s concluding a deal with the Persians. And you know, the Persians are skeptical ’cause, you know, Romans can’t always be trusted. But this guy says to them, he says, “And let me just tell you, you’re making a deal here with the Romans. The Romans. The name should say it all.” Like, you, okay, and you get a sense that this is, he’s expressing a certain pride in, like, being a bearer of the Roman tradition and speaking for the emperors and the Roman Empire. I mean, that’s, for him, this was something very, very momentous. You find these kinds of examples, so these people exist. But I wouldn’t wanna make that the basis for like an analysis of how the society works as a whole.

中文译文：我给你举个例子。六世纪有一位大使，他正在与波斯人达成协议。你知道，波斯人持怀疑态度，因为罗马人并不总是值得信任。但这个人对他们说，“让我告诉你们，你们正在与罗马人达成协议。罗马人。这个名字应该说明一切。”就像，你，好吧，你会感觉到，他表达了某种自豪感，比如，作为罗马传统的承载者，为皇帝和罗马帝国说话。我的意思是，对他来说，这是非常非常重要的事情。你会发现这类例子，所以这些人是存在的。但我不想以此为基础来分析整个社会如何运作。

Anthony Kaldellis 00:18:34

英文原文：For the most part, it was something like a consensus where, you know, subjects or citizens, however you wanna call them, they agree to, um- Let’s say be taxed and be ruled by political authorities because of what they get in return, and there’s this kind of understanding of a mutual set of responsibilities. And my concern, among other things, is to try to explain how this society held together for so long. Pride, yes, among some people, definitely. You find it in the sources. But sources are, texts are written by literate, usually elites. So this is a small part of the population. We can’t automatically extend their attitudes to everybody else.

中文译文：在很大程度上，这就像一种共识，你知道，臣民或公民，无论你想怎么称呼他们，他们都同意，嗯-比方说，因为他们得到的回报而被征税并受到政治当局的统治，并且对一系列相互责任有这种理解。除其他事项外，我关心的是试图解释这个社会是如何长期团结在一起的。骄傲，是的，在某些人中，绝对如此。您可以在来源中找到它。但消息来源称，文本是由有文化的人（通常是精英）撰写的。所以这只是人口的一小部分。我们不能自动将他们的态度延伸到其他人。

Anthony Kaldellis 00:19:18

英文原文：So in dealing with everyone else, we have to work with different kinds of materials, different kinds of assumptions. We can’t just posit that they’re just proud of being Roman. They could have been. We don’t know that, though. We can see other sorts of things about them. Like, for example, did they pay their taxes? Did they try to rebel and leave the empire? So those are the kinds of things that, that, that I look for.

中文译文：因此，在与其他人打交道时，我们必须使用不同种类的材料、不同种类的假设。我们不能简单地假设他们只是为自己是罗马人而感到自豪。他们本来可以的。但我们不知道这一点。我们还可以看到关于他们的其他事情。例如，他们缴税了吗？他们是否试图叛乱并离开帝国？这些就是我所寻找的东西。

Lex Fridman 00:19:37

英文原文：Pride is one component, but there could be other explanations and factors that explain what motivates a soldier to defend the capital, for example. Like, what motivates a particular person to pay the taxes. And then this is, this is something that we’ll definitely talk about. But just to linger at the big picture, if the Romans from the different periods met, how different would they be from each other? Like, if I, if I brought to you… This is one of those, you know, there’s like- … blind taste tests you can do with food.

中文译文：例如，自豪感是一个组成部分，但可能还有其他解释和因素来解释士兵保卫首都的动机。比如，是什么促使特定的人纳税。然后，这是我们肯定会谈论的事情。但从大局来看，如果不同时期的罗马人相遇，他们之间会有多大的不同呢？就像，如果我，如果我给你带来......这是其中之一，你知道，有像......你可以对食物进行盲味测试。

[20:00]

Anthony Kaldellis 00:20:15

英文原文：Pepsi and Coke.

中文译文：百事可乐和可口可乐。

Lex Fridman 00:20:16

英文原文：Pepsi and Coke. If I brought you a Roman from the kingdom period, the republic period, the early imperial period-

中文译文：百事可乐和可口可乐。如果我给你带来一个来自王国时期、共和时期、早期帝国时期的罗马人——

Anthony Kaldellis 00:20:27

英文原文：I mean, I get asked this in a, in a, in a much more radical form, which is like if you take someone from, like, around 1453 who’s a Roman and a subject of this Roman, and compare, and, and, you know, compare him or have him meet, you know, in your imagination with someone from the ancient republic. Like, how-

中文译文：我的意思是，我被以一种更激进的形式问到，这就像你把一个来自 1453 年左右的罗马人和这个罗马的臣民进行比较，并且，你知道，比较他或者让他在你的想象中与来自古代共和国的人见面。就像，如何——

Anthony Kaldellis 00:20:42

英文原文：… could they find any kind of agreement on, on what it means to be Roman and recognize each other as belonging to that polity? This, this is a very difficult thing to… Like, now, I can point to a number of things that they would find eventually. And, you know, if you told them, “Yo, you’re both Romans, you’re both from this long history, now you have to find, you know, what you have in common,” I think they could find things. But before we talk about those, if, if you wanna get into it, let’s just say that the question can even be posed about Romans who live at the same time.

中文译文：……他们能否就身为罗马人的意义达成任何共识，并承认彼此属于该政体？这，这是一件非常困难的事情……就像，现在，我可以指出他们最终会发现的一些东西。而且，你知道，如果你告诉他们，“哟，你们都是罗马人，你们都来自这段悠久的历史，现在你必须找到，你知道，你们的共同点，”我认为他们可以找到一些东西。但在我们讨论这些之前，如果你想深入探讨的话，我们可以说这个问题甚至可以针对生活在同一时期的罗马人提出。

Anthony Kaldellis 00:21:16

英文原文：I mean, if you take a senator from the age of Cicero and someone from the slums of Rome, who’s maybe the son of a slave who was brought from the East by some general a generation ago, and put them in a room and say, “Now, you discuss. You, you’re both Romans. What do you have in common?” They might have trouble in coming up with something.

中文译文：我的意思是，如果你把一位西塞罗时代的参议员和一位来自罗马贫民窟的人（可能是上一代将军从东方带来的奴隶的儿子）放在一个房间里，然后说：“现在，你们讨论一下。你们都是罗马人。你们有什么共同点？”他们可能很难想出一些办法。

Anthony Kaldellis 00:21:38

英文原文：Right? So let’s not minimize the sheer diversity of experiences and sort of life experiences of Romans who are living at the same time. The important thing is that a change is always happening, and from my standpoint this change is sort of cumulative, so it results in Greek-speaking Orthodox Christian Romans in Constantinople who at first sight might have little to do with Latin-speaking, you know, non-Christians or worshiping the ancient gods, Romans from a republic in Rome. And those are very, very different situations, and no doubt they would, they would look and seem foreign to each other, right?

中文译文：正确的？因此，我们不要低估同时生活的罗马人的经历和生活经历的多样性。重要的是，变化总是在发生，从我的角度来看，这种变化是累积性的，所以它导致君士坦丁堡讲希腊语的东正教基督教罗马人乍一看可能与讲拉丁语的非基督徒或崇拜古神的罗马人，即来自罗马共和国的罗马人没有什么关系。这些都是非常非常不同的情况，毫无疑问，他们看起来彼此陌生，对吧？

Anthony Kaldellis 00:22:20

英文原文：The question is, why do we assume that someone like Hadrian, right, an emperor from the second century sort of a very cosmopolitan figure who travels around the empire with his Greek lover and, you know, writes poems and is, has a Greek beard and, you know, loves Greek culture and has much to do with someone from the Middle Republic who’s, you know, some warrior who’s chasing down cattle from the Samnites. I mean, and yet the way we understand history is that, oh no, those belong together. Hadrian and this ancient Roman from the fourth century BC. But not Hadrian and someone, you know, an emperor a few centuries later who’s just like him, bilingual in Greek and Latin, who’s-

中文译文：问题是，为什么我们会假设像哈德良这样的人，对吧，一位来自二世纪的皇帝，是一个非常国际化的人物，他和他的希腊情人一起环游帝国，写诗，留着希腊胡须，热爱希腊文化，并且与来自中共和国的某个人有很大关系，他是一个追赶萨姆尼特人牛群的战士。我的意思是，但我们理解历史的方式是，哦不，这些是一体的。哈德良和这位公元前四世纪的古罗马人。但哈德良和某人，你知道，几个世纪后的一位皇帝，他和他一样，会说希腊语和拉丁语，他是——

Anthony Kaldellis 00:23:06

英文原文：… kinda cosmopolitan, who, you know, reads the same stuff, because we posit this rupture between Roman and Byzantine.

中文译文：……有点国际化，你知道，他读同样的东西，因为我们假设罗马和拜占庭之间存在这种断裂。

Lex Fridman 00:23:15

英文原文：One of the ways we can try to analyze this is, for example, looking at a very specific role in society across time. So we can look at soldiers, how they solve violence, for example. That’s one way. So you’re making me realize that we can just take 1,000 different professions and positions in society and really specifically look at what the experience of the world was like. And so one of them is the view on violence across time. And, and then the other is the view on the role of the government- … across time.

中文译文：例如，我们可以尝试分析这一点的方法之一是，研究不同时期社会中非常具体的角色。例如，我们可以看看士兵，他们如何解决暴力问题。这是一种方式。所以你让我意识到，我们可以选择社会上 1000 种不同的职业和职位，真正具体地观察世界的经历是什么样的。其中之一就是对跨时间暴力的看法。然后，另一个是对政府角色的看法——……跨越时间。

Anthony Kaldellis 00:23:57

英文原文：That’s an excellent way of putting it. So take soldiers, for example. They swear an oath. Right? Now, we don’t have the oath for every given period. We have some approximations of it, some hints of what it contained, but we know that Roman soldiers swore an oath, like, throughout all of the centuries of the empire. Sometimes they might add, like, a Christian formula to it. Sometime before that, not. But they swore basically to protect the republic or depending on what term they used or the empire or the emperor. And this is something that they would have recognized very quickly. Like, if, if they met each other over time and said, “Hey, what was your oath like?” And they recited it, this would have made much sense to them, right?

中文译文：这是一个很好的表达方式。以士兵为例。他们立下誓言。正确的？现在，我们没有针对每个特定时期的宣誓。我们对它有一些近似，对它所包含的内容有一些暗示，但我们知道罗马士兵在帝国的各个世纪里都宣誓过。有时他们可能会添加基督教公式之类的东西。在那之前的某个时候，不是。但他们基本上发誓要保护共和国，或者取决于他们使用什么术语，或者帝国或皇帝。他们很快就会认识到这一点。就像，如果，如果他们随着时间的推移见面并说，“嘿，你的誓言是什么样的？”他们背诵了这句话，这对他们来说很有意义，对吗？

Anthony Kaldellis 00:24:41

英文原文：Or take, for example, a woman who runs a business, right? From any century of the empire. It, it would have been, especially the later you go, the, the more so, that this woman is enabled to do this by virtue of Roman law. Of certain, you know, Roman law of property and inheritance and, and marriage, but also regulations regarding who can do what and what kinds of properties women can handle and under what circumstances. This is something that Roman women had in common that many other cultures did not. So I’ll give you an example. So for example, in the 10th, 11th century, there are Jewish women who live in the Eastern Roman Empire-

中文译文：或者以一位经营企业的女性为例，对吧？来自帝国的任何一个世纪。尤其是越晚，根据罗马法，这个女人就越有能力这样做。当然，你知道，罗马法关于财产、继承和婚姻，而且还有关于谁可以做什么、女性可以处理哪些财产以及在什么情况下的规定。这是罗马女性所具有的许多其他文化所没有的共同点。所以我给你举个例子。比如说，在 10、11 世纪，有一些犹太妇女生活在东罗马帝国——

Anthony Kaldellis 00:25:26

英文原文：… who realize that they have more rights in Roman courts than in rabbinical ones, and they take their disputes to the Roman courts. Now, the thing is that for the Romans, these are property matters- … not religious matters. But for the rabbis, these are religious matters. But the Roman courts trump the Jewish courts- … in the empire, right? And so you end up with a situation where Jewish women have more rights- … than Jewish women do elsewhere, because there Roman law is not operative. And there you go. Right? Like, these things matter, right? And that’s a function of imperial law.

中文译文：......他们意识到他们在罗马法庭比在拉比法庭拥有更多的权利，并且他们将争议提交给罗马法庭。现在，问题是，对于罗马人来说，这些是财产问题……而不是宗教问题。但对于拉比来说，这些都是宗教问题。但罗马法庭胜过犹太法庭——……在帝国里，对吧？因此，最终会出现这样的情况：犹太妇女比其他地方的犹太妇女拥有更多的权利，因为罗马法在那里不起作用。就这样吧。正确的？就像，这些事情很重要，对吧？这是帝国法律的职能。

Power, violence, and civil war

Lex Fridman 00:26:02

英文原文：And this, this would be an interesting actually interplay between the law and religious institutions- … Throughout the East- … Roman Empire. So you argue that even though the personality of the various emperors varied, as we’ll talk about, and as they’re often venerated, celebrated, criticized, talked about, the late Roman Empire was projecting a persona to its citizens that was consistent throughout its history. Can you describe what you mean by this and describe the different detailed characteristics of this persona?

中文译文：这实际上是法律和宗教机构之间有趣的相互作用——……整个东罗马帝国。所以你认为，尽管正如我们将要讨论的那样，各个皇帝的个性各不相同，而且他们经常受到尊敬、庆祝、批评和谈论，但晚期罗马帝国向其公民投射了一个贯穿其整个历史的一致形象。您能描述一下您的意思并描述这个角色的不同详细特征吗？

Anthony Kaldellis 00:26:36

英文原文：Yes. So this persona, it’s what the governments or the emperor, the court, and the spokesman, the bureaucracy want their subjects to think this whole thing is about. Like, how is power being used, why, and for whom, right? And they do so in laws that they promulgate throughout the empire. Sometimes they have these laws read in church, for example, or posted publicly. They’re definitely eager to have them communicated to as many people as possible. But they’re also a function of imperial rhetoric so the way you praise an emperor, the way you talk about an emperor. You find this language in petitions, so this is a hugely important glue for this society, is that anyone could basically petition the authorities for let’s just say just about anything.

中文译文：是的。所以这个角色，就是政府或皇帝、法庭、发言人、官僚机构希望他们的臣民认为这整件事的原因。比如，如何使用权力、为什么使用权力以及为谁使用权力，对吗？他们通过在整个帝国颁布的法律来做到这一点。例如，有时他们会在教堂宣读这些法律，或公开发布这些法律。他们肯定渴望将这些想法传达给尽可能多的人。但它们也是帝国修辞的一个功能，所以你赞美皇帝的方式，你谈论皇帝的方式。你可以在请愿书中找到这种语言，所以这对这个社会来说是非常重要的粘合剂，任何人基本上都可以向当局请愿，让我们随便说任何事情。

Anthony Kaldellis 00:27:30

英文原文：That’s not technically true, but there’s a lot of petitioning going on. So, you know, if you think something’s wrong or you’ve been treated unjustly, you can petition local officials, even imperial officials. You can petition the emperor, you can… Right? And the expectation is that that petition will be read, addressed, and answered. It might not be answered in the way that you want, but it will be answered. And those responses contain this language also, right? So these are the different media through which the emperors are broadcasting this persona, and that persona is what? Basically, that the authorities are responsive to the needs of their subjects, that they are often accountable.

中文译文：这在技术上是不正确的，但有很多请愿活动正在进行。所以，你知道，如果你觉得有什么问题或者你受到了不公正的对待，你可以向地方官员，甚至朝廷官员请愿。你可以向皇帝请愿，你可以……对吗？我们期望该请愿书能够被阅读、处理和答复。它可能不会以你想要的方式得到答复，但它会得到答复。这些回复也包含这种语言，对吧？那么这些就是皇帝们传播这个人物形象的不同媒体，那个人物形象是什么？基本上，当局对其臣民的需求做出回应，他们往往负有责任。

Anthony Kaldellis 00:28:10

英文原文：In other words, they understand that they are exercising public power, and that their mandate is to exercise it solely for the benefit of their subjects. They keep saying this. So renouncing any kind of private interest. In other words, “We’re not doing this for our benefit,” say the authorities. “We’re doing this for your benefit.” Also that they’re proactive. So the emperors are constantly saying that, “We’re planning ahead. We, we’re trying to foresee what problems you might have, and we are solving them before you experience them.”

中文译文：换句话说，他们明白自己正在行使公共权力，并且他们的任务是仅为其臣民的利益而行使权力。他们一直这么说。因此放弃任何形式的私人利益。换句话说，“我们这样做并不是为了我们自己的利益”，当局表示。 “我们这样做是为了你的利益。”而且他们很主动。所以皇帝们经常说，“我们正在提前计划。我们，我们正在努力预见你们可能遇到的问题，并在你们遇到问题之前解决它们。”

Anthony Kaldellis 00:28:46

英文原文：And that they are also working very hard. So hardworking. In fact, one of the cliches that they keep using is sleepless. The emperors keep saying that, “I’m losing sleep over this. I’m not sleeping at night because I’m just worrying so much about your problems and how to solve them.” Justinian, for example, was publicly known as the sleepless emperor, and not because he was a demon whose head floated around in the palace on its own, which some people

中文译文：他们也非常努力地工作。这么勤奋。事实上，他们一直使用的陈词滥调之一就是失眠。皇帝们一直说：“我为此失眠。我晚上睡不着觉，因为我太担心你们的问题以及如何解决它们。”例如，查士丁尼被公认为不眠皇帝，并不是因为他是一个头在宫殿里自行漂浮的恶魔，有些人认为他是一个恶魔。

Lex Fridman 00:29:12

英文原文：That’s the thing?

中文译文：是这样的吗？

Anthony Kaldellis 00:29:12

英文原文：It was a thing, yes.

中文译文：是的，这是一件事。

Lex Fridman 00:29:14

英文原文：Okay.

中文译文：好的。

Anthony Kaldellis 00:29:14

英文原文：That’s a whole thing.

中文译文：这是一整件事。

Lex Fridman 00:29:15

英文原文：But sleepless in terms of worked so hard- … there’s no time to sleep.

中文译文：但工作这么辛苦，却睡不着觉——……没有时间睡觉。

Anthony Kaldellis 00:29:19

英文原文：He was a workaholic. That is conceded by even his enemies. All night he was up just, just hauling officials in at any old hour to talk about whatever, you know, wars and architecture and laws and religion and theology and whatever. So the emperors are projecting this image, right? So that’s what I call the persona. Tireless effort to work on behalf of subjects, to do so responsibly, to be responsive and accountable. In other words, if some of my officials breaks the law or oppresses you, I’m giving you instruments, like legal instruments, by which to hold them to account.

中文译文：他是一个工作狂。甚至他的敌人也承认这一点。整个晚上他都没有睡，只是在任何时候把官员拉进来谈论任何事情，你知道，战争、建筑、法律、宗教和神学等等。所以皇帝们正在投射这个形象，对吗？这就是我所说的人物角色。坚持不懈地努力代表主体开展工作，负责任地开展工作，积极响应并负责。换句话说，如果我的一些官员违法或压迫你，我会给你工具，比如法律工具，让你追究他们的责任。

Anthony Kaldellis 00:29:59

英文原文：So that’s the persona. It’s very consistent and I think it’s part of the mechanism of tying the society together. In other words, if subjects think that their emperors are like this, right, they’re more likely to agree to the consensus of essentially paying taxes.

中文译文：这就是人物。这是非常一致的，我认为这是将社会联系在一起的机制的一部分。换句话说，如果臣民认为他们的皇帝是这样的，对吧，他们更有可能同意本质上纳税的共识。

[30:00]

Lex Fridman 00:30:17

英文原文：And you draw this distinction between rhetoric and action, what the authorities say and what they actually do. So when you say persona in the modern times, some of that could be reframed as propaganda- … for example. And propaganda implies that the rhetoric, that there’s a big gap between the rhetoric and the action. And one of the things you said you took away from reading Machiavelli is that we should judge people not by what they say, but by what they do. So how much of the Roman Empire’s government of what they espoused was merely rhetoric, and how much was true in how they acted?

中文译文：你可以区分言辞和行动、当局所说的和他们实际做的。因此，当你说到现代的人物角色时，其中一些可以被重新定义为宣传——例如。宣传意味着言辞，言辞和行动之间存在很大差距。你说你从阅读马基雅维利中学到的一件事是，我们应该根据人们所做的而不是他们所说的来判断他们。那么，罗马帝国政府所拥护的政策有多少只是说说而已，而他们的行动又有多少是真实的呢？

Anthony Kaldellis 00:30:56

英文原文：Yes. This is a key lesson I took from reading Machiavelli, and I found this a very insightful way of thinking about politics, and I would recommend that anybody kind of practice this way of looking at the world, right? People and states and, you know, powerful people can say anything they want to. At the end of the day what matters is what they actually do. And this doesn’t mean that what they say is irrelevant, even if it’s discordant with what they do. But nevertheless in the case of the East Roman state, my research suggests that the emperors and the authorities were generally sincere in what they said. In other words, I have found that they generally did what they said they were going to do overall. Not perfectly, obviously.

中文译文：是的。这是我从阅读马基雅维利中学到的一个重要教训，我发现这是一种非常有洞察力的政治思考方式，我建议任何人都练习这种看待世界的方式，对吗？人民、国家以及有权势的人可以说任何他们想说的话。归根结底，重要的是他们实际做了什么。这并不意味着他们所说的无关紧要，即使这与他们所做的不一致。但尽管如此，就东罗马国家而言，我的研究表明，皇帝和当局的言论总体上是真诚的。换句话说，我发现他们总体上都会按照他们所说的去做。显然，并不完美。

Anthony Kaldellis 00:31:48

英文原文：And of course, these are human beings we’re talking about. The, right, the human societies, there was a lot of, you know, corruption, and you name it. Abuse— … of course. Of course there is. But overall, I think that there was a sufficient level of understanding that the emperors are in fact doing this, and they were actually incentivized to do this. We can talk about how. Because they were also in a pretty vulnerable situation too, so they needed their subjects to be relatively content on this front.

中文译文：当然，我们谈论的是人类。对，人类社会，有很多，你知道的，腐败，凡是你能想到的。虐待——……当然。当然有。但总的来说，我认为人们对皇帝实际上正在这样做有足够的了解，并且他们实际上受到激励这样做。我们可以谈谈如何做。因为他们也处于相当脆弱的境地，所以他们需要他们的对象在这方面相对满意。

Lex Fridman 00:32:18

英文原文：Isn’t this surprising to you? So, you know, from the outsider point of view, Roman emperors, even in the East Roman Empire, technically have a lot of power. You can even say in some cases absolute power, and yet they seem to be awfully worried … … To make everybody in the empire happy. What explains that? Like what, what explains the small gap between rhetoric and action in the East Roman Empire?

中文译文：这对你来说不奇怪吗？所以，你知道，从外人的角度来看，罗马皇帝，即使是在东罗马帝国，技术上也拥有很大的权力。甚至有些时候可以说是绝对的权力，但他们却似乎很担心……为了让帝国的所有人都高兴。这怎么解释呢？比如，如何解释东罗马帝国言辞与行动之间的微小差距？

Anthony Kaldellis 00:32:52

英文原文：A number of things, but ultimately it is that there is no right to the throne. And this is a function of the Roman matrix of politics here. In other words, so here’s a bit of a paradox. What we call the Roman Republic was the most imperialistic phase of Roman history. Like this is when the Romans did most of their conquering. What we call the empire is much less imperialistic in this way. That’s much more defensive in its approach, right? And yet our terms are a little mismatched in that way. The empire is more a function of that it has an emperor rather than it is engaged in imperialism. And that emperor emerged out of the republic.

中文译文：有很多事情，但最终是没有王位的权利。这是罗马政治矩阵的一个功能。换句话说，这有点悖论。我们所说的罗马共和国是罗马历史上最帝国主义的阶段。就像罗马人完成大部分征服的时候一样。这样一来，我们所说的帝国就不再是帝国主义的了。这在方法上更具防御性，对吧？然而我们的条款在这方面有点不匹配。帝国更多地是因为它有一个皇帝，而不是它从事帝国主义。这位皇帝是从共和国中诞生的。

Anthony Kaldellis 00:33:40

英文原文：But emerged out of the republic in a very strange way. In other words, not as a dynasty that created the state. So for example, if you think of the Ottoman Empire, many other empires, they… The whole thing existed because this dynasty engaged in conquest and- … was successful in creating the state, and so the dynasty was like at the heart of the state. But that’s not at all the case in the Roman Empire. The emperor is a figure who emerged within a republic, and in order to create peace after the civil wars, those emperors had to, for a long time, kind of pretend that they were not what they really were.

中文译文：但以一种非常奇怪的方式脱离了共和国。换句话说，不是作为一个创建国家的王朝。举例来说，如果你想到奥斯曼帝国和许多其他帝国，他们……整个事情的存在是因为这个王朝从事征服，并且——……成功地创建了国家，所以王朝就像是国家的核心。但在罗马帝国，情况却并非如此。皇帝是一个在共和国内出现的人物，为了在内战后创造和平，这些皇帝不得不在很长一段时间内假装自己不是真实的自己。

Anthony Kaldellis 00:34:19

英文原文：By basically, you know, continuing to flatter the idea of a republic that is, you know, that has a first citizen maybe. “Oh, no, no, I’m not a king. I’m just, I have this office and that office and that office.” “Whatever the Senate has given me.” Now, we understand that’s a facade, but the fact that they had to create this facade at all is very important.

中文译文：基本上，你知道，继续奉承共和国的想法，你知道，也许有第一公民。 “哦，不，不，我不是国王。我只是，我有这个办公室、那个办公室和那个办公室。” “无论参议院给我什么。”现在，我们知道这是一个外观，但事实上他们必须创建这个外观，这一点非常重要。

Lex Fridman 00:34:40

英文原文：Can we actually just linger on that? I mean, how much of this… ‘Cause you said they had to create this facade. Did Augustus, who started the whole thing, the first emperor of Rome, did he have to act that way? ‘Cause he kept acting like he’s not an absolute- … monarch, and he could have gone hardcore, destroy the Senate, just full hardcore rule, dictatorship.

中文译文：我们真的可以就此徘徊吗？我的意思是，其中有多少……因为你说他们必须创造这个外观。整个事情的始作俑者、罗马第一位皇帝奥古斯都必须这样做吗？因为他一直表现得好像他不是一个绝对的……君主，他本可以变得铁杆，摧毁参议院，只是完全铁杆统治，独裁。

Anthony Kaldellis 00:35:09

英文原文：Well, then how, how does he govern then?

中文译文：那他怎么治呢？

Lex Fridman 00:35:11

英文原文：So, so he wants to be an effective governor, And he also wants to not be overthrown.

中文译文：所以，所以他想成为一个有效的统治者，而且他也不想被推翻。

Anthony Kaldellis 00:35:16

英文原文：Exactly. Because, you know, just because you ended one civil war doesn’t mean that there’s not going to be another. You have to create a consensus such that people don’t want to have another civil war. If he did what you said, which he in theory could have done, but that would’ve just led to more wars, right? So the problem is that the emperors, even those who come to power through violence, they can’t prevent other people from trying to come to power through violence because like I said, no one has a right to the throne.

中文译文：确切地。因为，你知道，仅仅因为你结束了一场内战并不意味着不会再有另一场内战。你必须达成共识，让人们不想再发生内战。如果他按照你说的去做，理论上他也可以这么做，但这只会导致更多的战争，对吗？所以问题是，皇帝，即使是那些通过暴力上台的皇帝，他们也无法阻止其他人试图通过暴力上台，因为就像我说的，没有人有权利登上王位。

Lex Fridman 00:35:45

英文原文：We should also say one more thing where, dare I carefully say this, but it seems like riots and civil wars is a feature, not a bug of the system. This is a different thing that we have to the modern day, is because the threat of a civil war, a violent civil war where you overthrow the government and there’s just a lot of- … death and struggle for power is always a threat. That’s another incentive that, I guess the stick, not the carrot, but the stick for the emperor to behave.

中文译文：我们还应该多说一件事，我敢说，但似乎骚乱和内战是系统的一个功能，而不是一个错误。这与现代的情况有所不同，因为内战的威胁，一场暴力内战，你推翻政府，并且有很多……死亡和权力斗争始终是一种威胁。这是另一个激励因素，我猜是大棒，不是胡萝卜，而是皇帝行为的大棒。

Anthony Kaldellis 00:36:22

英文原文：Yes. It’s the main one. In other words, just take the thousand years that I study. There’s something like 120 civil wars. Now, these are usually very swift. They’re over quickly, and they’re never about ideology. So they’re not like modern civil wars. Right? It’s not about slavery or the rights of kings or whatever. No, no, no. They’re solely about who has the power. All sides have the same ideology. They talk about, you know, the responsibility of government in the same way, right? They’re just competing over who’s the best man to do the job. Right? And so once you have that situation… And it might not be a civil war, it could be a palace coup, it could be a kind of fighting in the capital-

中文译文：是的。这是主要的。换句话说，就拿我研究的千年来说吧。大约有 120 场内战。现在，这些通常非常快。它们很快就结束了，而且从来都与意识形态无关。所以它们不像现代内战。正确的？这与奴隶制或国王的权利或其他什么无关。不，不，不。他们只关心谁拥有权力。各方都有相同的意识形态。他们以同样的方式谈论政府的责任，对吗？他们只是在竞争谁是最适合这项工作的人。正确的？所以一旦出现这种情况……这可能不是内战，也可能是宫廷政变，也可能是首都的某种战斗——

Anthony Kaldellis 00:37:06

英文原文：… something like that. Once everyone’s taken their side and you have a winner, that’s the emperor and you often overthrow the previous regime. I’ll give you some statistics. Something like 46% of the emperors of Constantinople are overthrown through violence. 46%. And that’s almost half.

中文译文：……类似的事情。一旦每个人都站在自己一边，你就有了胜利者，那就是皇帝，你经常会推翻以前的政权。我会给你一些统计数据。君士坦丁堡大约有 46% 的皇帝是通过暴力推翻的。 46%。这几乎是一半。

Anthony Kaldellis 00:37:25

英文原文：Right? So that’s a huge, that’s a huge number, which means that every emperor is vulnerable and insecure, and they know it, right? So what they have to do is make sure that that doesn’t happen to them, and the way to do that is not by arresting and executing everybody you think might be a threat or just generally behaving like a, you know, a Caligula or a Nero. That will just get you killed. Like, they know this. So the best way to avoid that fate is to actually do the things that will make people happy so that they don’t support a rebel if a rebel decides to appear. And sometimes rebels would appear. There’s a kind of convention in Constantinople, like if you…

中文译文：正确的？所以这是一个巨大的数字，这意味着每个皇帝都是脆弱和不安全的，他们知道这一点，对吗？因此，他们必须做的是确保这种情况不会发生在他们身上，而做到这一点的方法不是逮捕并处决所有你认为可能构成威胁的人，或者只是表现得像卡利古拉或尼禄。那只会害死你。就像，他们知道这一点。因此，避免这种命运的最好方法是实际做一些能让人们高兴的事情，这样，如果叛乱分子决定出现，他们就不会支持叛乱分子。有时还会出现叛逆者。君士坦丁堡有一种惯例，就像如果你……

Anthony Kaldellis 00:38:06

英文原文：Sometimes you think, “Hmm, that emperor’s pretty unpopular and I think I can overthrow him.” What you would do is you would march down the center boulevard- … And, you know, you’d have your people just call the populace of Constantinople out to rally, to you know, maybe go to Hagia Sophia, the church, and just create a big crowd and call for the deposition of the emperor and, you know, maybe that would- And sometimes it did, and sometimes it didn’t, and the rebel or wannabe rebel would sort of proceed down the, the Mese, the boulevard, and people would just gradually just disappear, and then he’d be left alone- … and go up to Hagia Sophia as, as seeking asylum. Right? So that’s a bid.

中文译文：有时你会想，“嗯，那个皇帝很不受欢迎，我想我可以推翻他。”你要做的就是沿着中央大道游行——……而且，你知道，你会让你的人民号召君士坦丁堡的民众集会，你知道，也许去圣索菲亚大教堂，然后聚集一大群人，要求罢黜皇帝，你知道，也许会——有时确实如此，有时却没有，叛乱者或想要叛乱的人会沿着梅塞大道前进，人们会逐渐消失，然后他会独自一人……并前往圣索菲亚大教堂寻求庇护。正确的？这就是一个出价。

Anthony Kaldellis 00:38:49

英文原文：That’s someone making a bid for the throne, and it just goes disastrously bad. Other times, the people come out ’cause they hate the emperor, and they drag the emperor out and cut his nose off or whatever. So emperors are constantly trying to prevent that from happening, and the best way to do that is through goodwill.

中文译文：那是有人在争夺王位，而结果却是灾难性的。其他时候，人们出来是因为他们讨厌皇帝，他们把皇帝拖出去，割掉他的鼻子或者其他什么。因此，皇帝们不断地试图阻止这种情况的发生，而做到这一点的最好方法就是通过善意。

Lex Fridman 00:39:07

英文原文：I’m trying to load in that kind of world ’cause it’s a different world than we live in today.

中文译文：我试图进入那种世界，因为它与我们今天生活的世界不同。

Anthony Kaldellis 00:39:13

英文原文：Yes.

中文译文：是的。

Lex Fridman 00:39:14

英文原文：There’s a constant inner workings of policy development inside government.

中文译文：政府内部不断有政策制定的内部运作。

Anthony Kaldellis 00:39:20

英文原文：Yes.

中文译文：是的。

Lex Fridman 00:39:21

英文原文：But the check on power is, like, literal, like, “We will murder you.”

中文译文：但对权力的制衡，就像字面上的意思一样，“我们会谋杀你。”

Anthony Kaldellis 00:39:27

英文原文：Yes, it depends on the period. Sometimes murder you, sometimes blind you, sometimes cut your nose off, but there were periods-

中文译文：是的，这取决于时期。有时会谋杀你，有时会弄瞎你，有时会割掉你的鼻子，但也有一些时期——

Lex Fridman 00:39:33

英文原文：Thank you for the nuance.

中文译文：谢谢你的细微差别。

Anthony Kaldellis 00:39:35

英文原文：… No, there were periods that were more civilized. We’ll just basically, you’ll get retired to a monastery.

中文译文：……不，有过更文明的时期。基本上，你会退休到修道院。

Lex Fridman 00:39:39

英文原文：Right.

中文译文：正确的。

Anthony Kaldellis 00:39:40

英文原文：Okay. You’re right. So here’s what elections do. Elections give a government a mandate for, I don’t know, four or five years, and during that period, you may be unpopular, but you’re legitimate, right, because of the institutions. Whereas in Constantinople, we don’t have those kinds of institutions. We have instead an ongoing referendum. We just call it a perpetual referendum, right?

中文译文：好的。你说得对。这就是选举的作用。选举赋予政府为期四五年的授权，我不知道，在此期间，你可能不受欢迎，但由于制度的原因，你是合法的，对吧。而在君士坦丁堡，我们没有这样的机构。相反，我们正在进行一场全民公投。我们称之为永久公投，对吗？

[40:00]

Anthony Kaldellis 00:40:07

英文原文：And in fact, the emperors are, are, they’re conducting opinion polls in a sense because they appear in public. When they appear in public, everyone is expected to cheer and chant acclamations, right, like slogans. Right? So you have 100,000 people in the Hippodrome all chanting, you know, “Worthy” or “Many years for you, Augustus” or something like this. And if that happens, it’s great. But if you appear in the Hippodrome and people are, like, sullen or if the chanting is a bit tepid or if they’re booing, then you know something’s wrong, right? So you gotta find out what’s wrong. It could be something like the grain supply is, is, you know, not working or whatever. And so emperors are desperate to fix those problems.

中文译文：事实上，皇帝们在某种意义上是在进行民意调查，因为他们出现在公共场合。当他们出现在公共场合时，每个人都应该欢呼并高喊口号，对吧，就像口号一样。正确的？所以竞技场里有 100,000 个人都在高喊“值得”或“为你而战，奥古斯都”之类的口号。如果这种情况发生，那就太好了。但如果你出现在竞技场，人们闷闷不乐，或者口号有点不温不火，或者发出嘘声，那么你就知道出了什么问题，对吧？所以你必须找出问题所在。可能是粮食供应不正常或其他什么原因。因此，皇帝们迫切希望解决这些问题。

Lex Fridman 00:40:49

英文原文：And the Hippodrome is this big gathering place in Constantinople, which I guess a lot of people gathered at and did this kind of cheering or not cheering based on policy and—

中文译文：竞技场是君士坦丁堡的一个大型聚会场所，我猜很多人都聚集在那里，根据政策进行这种欢呼或不欢呼——

Anthony Kaldellis 00:41:01

英文原文：Yeah

中文译文：是的

Lex Fridman 00:41:01

英文原文：… and whether the emperor is popular or not. This was democracy. I apologize to use that term, but-

中文译文：……以及皇帝是否受欢迎。这就是民主。我很抱歉使用这个词，但是-

Anthony Kaldellis 00:41:08

英文原文：Yeah, yeah

中文译文：是啊是啊

Lex Fridman 00:41:09

英文原文：… in our conception of what that means, because what do we mean by democracy in the modern day is that the people somehow have a connection to who leads and how they lead, and this is—the Hippodrome was that connection between the people and the leaders.

中文译文：……在我们对其含义的理解中，因为现代民主的含义是，人民在某种程度上与谁领导以及他们如何领导有联系，而这就是——竞技场就是人民和领导人之间的联系。

Anthony Kaldellis 00:41:26

英文原文：Yes. Now, we can talk about modern democracy if you want. That’s a, I have my own views about- … modern democracy and, you know, how it works and how it doesn’t and, anyway, whether it is democracy, in fact, ’cause there are other models of democracy, like-

中文译文：是的。如果你愿意的话，现在我们可以谈论现代民主。那是，我对……现代民主有自己的看法，你知道，它是如何运作的，如何不运作的，无论如何，它是否是民主，事实上，因为还有其他民主模式，比如——

Anthony Kaldellis 00:41:41

英文原文：… ancient Athenian democracy, which is a whole other thing. But you’re right. So it’s not just in the Hippodrome. It’s wherever people assemble in large numbers. So this could be military mustering grounds, right? So the army. The army is also the Roman people in a way, and in some cases, the most decisive part of it, right? So if an army gathers together and they decide they want a different emperor, that’s serious, and that can happen out in the provinces too. That doesn’t necessarily have to happen in Constantinople. There’s also Hagia Sophia, so the people gather in the church, or they gather in public spaces like the Forum of Constantine.

中文译文：……古代雅典的民主，这完全是另一回事。但你是对的。所以这不仅仅是在竞技场。这是人们大量聚集的地方。所以这可能是军事集结地，对吗？所以军队。军队在某种程度上也是罗马人民，在某些情况下，也是罗马人民中最决定性的部分，对吧？因此，如果一支军队聚集在一起，他们决定想要一位不同的皇帝，那就很严重了，这种情况也可能发生在各省。这不一定必须发生在君士坦丁堡。还有圣索菲亚大教堂，所以人们聚集在教堂里，或者聚集在君士坦丁论坛这样的公共场所。

Anthony Kaldellis 00:42:19

英文原文：So this can happen anywhere where a large number of people can gather, and it’s, I don’t know if you wanna call it a democracy as such, but it is definitely a form of popular, let’s say, consultation and a testing of consensus. I’ll give you another example. So in the 1190s, the emperor—and it’s Alexius III—he’s being threatened by the German emperor. German emperor’s basically, “You, you, you pay me a bunch of money or I’ll invade.” Just straight up extortion. And Alexius decides, “Okay, I’m gonna, I’m gonna gather this money. I’m gonna impose these taxes.” And he gathers the people in the Hippodrome, and he says, “You know, we’re gonna have the German tax.”

中文译文：因此，这种情况可能发生在任何有大量人员聚集的地方，我不知道你是否想称其为民主，但这绝对是一种大众的形式，比如说协商和共识的检验。我再举一个例子。因此，在 1190 年代，皇帝——亚历克修斯三世——受到了德国皇帝的威胁。德国皇帝基本上是，“你，你，你付我一大笔钱，否则我就入侵。”简直就是直接敲诈勒索。亚历克修斯决定，“好吧，我要，我要收集这笔钱。我要征收这些税。”他把人们聚集到竞技场，说道：“你知道，我们要缴纳德国税。”

Anthony Kaldellis 00:43:00

英文原文：He called it the German tax. And there’s such an uproar in the Hippodrome against this that he was like, “Uh, that wasn’t my idea. I don’t know where that came from. No, never mind. We’re not gonna have the German tax.” Fortunately, the German emperor died and, and nothing ever happened, but it gives you a sense of how emperors, like, literally can backtrack when they see that the people are against something in a matter of policy, right— … like tax policy. So yeah, there was this give and take. So institutionally, the emperor might look absolute, as you called him earlier. In practice, no. No. The ones that did that didn’t end well.

中文译文：他称之为德国税。竞技场里对此引起了强烈的反对，他说：“呃，这不是我的主意。我不知道那是从哪里来的。不，没关系。我们不会征收德国税。”幸运的是，德国皇帝去世了，什么也没发生，但这让你感觉到，当皇帝看到人民反对某些政策问题时，比如税收政策，他们实际上可以撤回。所以，是的，有这种给予和索取。因此，从制度上来说，皇帝可能看起来是绝对的，正如你之前所说的那样。实际上，没有。不，那些这样做的人结局并不好。

Lex Fridman 00:43:40

英文原文：And we should say, going to Perplexity here, the Hippodrome of Constantinople was the main stadium and social center of the Byzantine capital, used primarily for chariot racing and imperial ceremony, and today survives in Istanbul’s Sultanahmet district. And the reason I looked this up, I wanted to see how many people. Shaped as a long U-shaped race course with a central barrier and tiered seating, it may have held from roughly thirty thousand up to a hundred thousand spectators, though exact capacity’s debated because archeological remains are limited. That’s a lot of people.

中文译文：我们应该说，说到这里的困惑，君士坦丁堡竞技场是拜占庭首都的主要体育场和社交中心，主要用于战车比赛和帝国仪式，今天仍然存在于伊斯坦布尔的苏丹艾哈迈德区。我之所以查这个，是想看看有多少人。它的形状是一个长长的 U 形赛马场，有一个中央屏障和分层座位，可以容纳大约三万到十万名观众，但由于考古遗迹有限，确切的容量存在争议。那是很多人。

Anthony Kaldellis 00:44:19

英文原文：Thirty thousand is definitely a pretty un-underestimate. The Hippodrome is still there. I mean, you can see it from, it’s like satellite photos. The shape of it is still there.

中文译文：三万绝对是一个不容小觑的数字。竞技场仍然在那里。我的意思是，你可以看到它，就像卫星照片一样。它的形状还在那里。

Anthony Kaldellis 00:44:28

英文原文：And actually some parts of the build, the, the Sphendone, the, the sling around the southern side is still there. You can walk around it. And it’s right next to the palace. In other words, emperors didn’t have to go far. Now, sometimes there are events for replacing an emperor. So say the emperor dies in his sleep, and there’s no heir. This happens in 491, for example. And so the people gather in the Hippodrome in order to have a discussion with the court about whom to appoint. Now, in those kinds of contexts, it’s entirely possible that there are people also in the arena, like not just in the stands. I think some military units might have just been arrayed there rather than in the stands.

中文译文：事实上，建筑的某些部分，Sphendone，南侧的吊索仍然在那里。你可以绕着它走一圈。而且就在皇宫旁边。换句话说，皇帝不必走太远。现在，有时会发生更换皇帝的事件。所以说皇帝在睡梦中去世，没有继承人。例如，这发生在 491。于是，人们聚集在竞技场，与朝廷讨论任命谁。现在，在这种情况下，完全有可能有人在竞技场中，不仅仅是看台上。我认为一些军事单位可能只是排列在那里而不是在看台上。

Anthony Kaldellis 00:45:10

英文原文：So you can get more people than what we project might fit in the stands, ’cause they’re not having the races on that day.

中文译文：因此，看台上容纳的人数可能会超出我们预计的人数，因为他们当天没有比赛。

Lex Fridman 00:45:16

英文原文：We should say, so like, I think the thing that was emphasized in the first paragraph is the, the athletic events and the entertainment events, right? Like the imperial ceremony. But there is a, a sort of a political gathering was also popular. The Hippodrome was not just for sport. It was where emperors appeared before the people, where acclamations, public punishments, and political demonstrations took place, and where the rival circus factions, blues, greens, reds, whites, became powerful social and sometimes paramilitary forces. And this goes on and on and on. So this was a place—

中文译文：我们应该说，所以，我认为第一段强调的是体育赛事和娱乐赛事，对吗？就像皇家的仪式一样。但有一种，一种政治聚会也很受欢迎。竞技场不仅仅是为了运动。在这里，皇帝出现在人民面前，举行欢呼、公开惩罚和政治示威，马戏团的敌对派别，蓝、绿、红、白，成为强大的社会力量，有时甚至是准军事力量。这种情况一直持续下去。所以这是一个地方——

Anthony Kaldellis 00:45:51

英文原文：Oh, it’s a very important place. Yeah

中文译文：哦，这是一个非常重要的地方。是的

Lex Fridman 00:45:52

英文原文：… for people to speak to the leader.

中文译文：……让人们能够与领导者交谈。

Anthony Kaldellis 00:45:55

英文原文：Yeah. Vent sometimes. Even insult them.

中文译文：是的。有时发泄一下。甚至辱骂他们。

Lex Fridman 00:45:58

英文原文：Yeah. This is fascinating. I mean, it’s human civilization. It’s converged towards a mechanism that has clearly worked, because for the empire in the East stood for a thousand years. So it’s, it’s fascinating. We as humans, throughout our history, we try to figure out, okay, how do we figure out how to govern large collections of humans in a way that they’re represented, in the way that they don’t riot, they don’t rebel. In the way that we flourish together as a people, all this, all this kind of stuff. So this is a real… The East Roman Empire is a real study of something that seemed to have worked. There’s lessons there even for the modern times, I think. And modern times, again, is very early human civilization.

中文译文：是的。这很有趣。我的意思是，这就是人类文明。它趋向于一种显然有效的机制，因为东方帝国已经存在了一千年。就是这样，这很有趣。作为人类，在我们的整个历史中，我们试图弄清楚，好吧，我们如何弄清楚如何以他们所代表的方式来管理大量的人类，以他们不骚乱、不叛逆的方式。以我们作为一个民族共同繁荣的方式，所有这些，所有这些事情。所以这是一个真实的……东罗马帝国是对似乎有效的东西的真实研究。我认为，即使是对于现代来说，也有一些教训。而现代又是人类文明的早期阶段。

Anthony Kaldellis 00:46:54

英文原文：From a certain standpoint, yes, we are still early in—

中文译文：从某种角度来看，是的，我们还处于早期阶段——

Lex Fridman 00:46:57

英文原文：Trying to figure it out

中文译文：试图弄清楚

Anthony Kaldellis 00:46:58

英文原文：… trying to figure it out. Yes. Now, mind you, I’m not advocating for this type of social organization and government. What I’m trying to do as a historian is understand how and why it survived and also to find the ways that it worked, because it did work. We know that much. We have to start from that. It survived. It was resilient. There was a lot of, you know, give and take in the exercise of power, and I want to understand the mechanisms of that.

中文译文：……试图弄清楚。是的。现在，请注意，我并不是提倡这种类型的社会组织和政府。作为一名历史学家，我想做的就是了解它如何以及为何幸存下来，并找到它发挥作用的方式，因为它确实发挥了作用。我们知道的就这么多。我们必须从那开始。它活了下来。它很有弹性。你知道，在行使权力时有很多付出和索取，我想了解其中的机制。

Edict of Caracalla

Lex Fridman 00:47:27

英文原文：So if we can, before we go to Emperor Constantine the First and the founding of Constantinople, can we look at some maybe seminal events that led up to some of the topics we’ll be talking about? So one of them, maybe tell me if this is not as interesting as I think it is, but the Edict of Caracalla in 212 AD. So this is where you described that starting with Augustus in the early imperial period, government saw itself as a protector of the Roman citizens, which is a minority of the people living in the Roman Empire. It doesn’t consider the provincials. And then you described that the Edict of Caracalla extended full Roman citizenships to basically all free inhabitants of the Roman Empire. So what is it? Why was it done? Why is it important? And how did it change the Roman Empire?

中文译文：因此，如果可以的话，在我们了解君士坦丁一世皇帝和君士坦丁堡的建立之前，我们是否可以看看一些可能具有开创性的事件，这些事件导致了我们将要讨论的一些主题？那么其中之一，也许可以告诉我，这是否不像我想象的那么有趣，而是公元 212 年的卡拉卡拉法令。所以这就是你所描述的，从帝国早期的奥古斯都开始，政府将自己视为罗马公民的保护者，罗马公民是生活在罗马帝国的少数人。它不考虑省级。然后你描述了卡拉卡拉法令将完全的罗马公民身份扩展到罗马帝国的基本上所有自由居民。那么它是什么？为什么这样做？为什么它很重要？它如何改变了罗马帝国？

Anthony Kaldellis 00:48:30

英文原文：Right. I agree with you that this is, in fact, a very important… It’s a, it’s a real turning point in a sense, but it also is part of a process. So for various reasons, the Roman polity tended to bestow its metropolitan citizenship, that is, Roman citizenship on its allies, and eventually in time, on many people that it had conquered. And it had various mechanisms for doing so. It could bestow block grants. Sometimes it allowed its generals to bestow citizenship on people they thought would, you know, would be necessary players for controlling local societies. Sometimes they even allowed foreign cities to, like non-Roman cities, to decide who would get Roman citizenship by basically electing them to certain kinds of offices.

中文译文：正确的。我同意你的观点，事实上，这是一个非常重要的……从某种意义上说，这是一个真正的转折点，但它也是一个过程的一部分。因此，出于各种原因，罗马政体倾向于将其宗主国公民身份，即罗马公民身份授予其盟友，并最终授予许多它所征服的人民。它有多种机制可以做到这一点。它可以提供整笔拨款。有时，它允许将军们向他们认为是控制当地社会的必要角色的人授予公民身份。有时他们甚至允许外国城市像非罗马城市一样，通过选举他们担任某些类型的职位来决定谁将获得罗马公民身份。

Anthony Kaldellis 00:49:23

英文原文：Like they, they outsourced a lot of this. And so you have over time the steady growth of a Roman community of citizens who are not all in Rome, and who are not all of Roman origin, whatever that means, but they, they were not descended from people who were from Rome. And this proceeds, you know, it expands, it expands, it expands. By Caracalla’s time, so early third century AD, we can estimate that maybe at, at most a third of the free citizens of the empire are Roman citizens. Everyone else has local citizenship, like you’re Alexandrian or Athenian or, or whatever. And with… You’re subject to those laws. This emperor, Caracalla, now that’s his nickname. His reigning name is Marcus Aurelius Antoninus. So just like Marcus Aurelius, it’s the same name two generations later.

中文译文：像他们一样，他们外包了很多这样的事情。因此，随着时间的推移，罗马公民社区稳步增长，他们并不都是罗马人，也不都是罗马血统，无论这意味着什么，但他们并不是来自罗马的人的后裔。你知道，这种情况会继续下去，它会扩展，它会扩展，它会扩展。到了卡拉卡拉时代，即公元三世纪初，我们可以估计，帝国的自由公民中最多有三分之一是罗马公民。其他人都有当地公民身份，就像你是亚历山大人或雅典人或其他什么人一样。并且……您必须遵守这些法律。这位皇帝，卡拉卡拉，现在这是他的绰号。他的在位名是马库斯·奥勒留·安东尼。所以就像马库斯·奥勒留一样，两代人之后仍然是同一个名字。

[50:00]

Lex Fridman 00:50:15

英文原文：Some badass names for emperors, by the way. I don’t know if it’s the chicken or the egg, but just- … some epic names.

中文译文：顺便说一下，一些皇帝的坏名字。我不知道是先有鸡还是先有蛋，但只是……一些史诗般的名字。

Anthony Kaldellis 00:50:22

英文原文：They’ve been remembered that way, and so we read that back into the name-

中文译文：他们就是这样被记住的，所以我们把它读回名字里——

Lex Fridman 00:50:25

英文原文：Yes, that’s true.

中文译文：是的，确实如此。

Anthony Kaldellis 00:50:25

英文原文：… and absolutely, yes.

中文译文：……绝对是的。

Lex Fridman 00:50:26

英文原文：But anyway, Caracalla. Yeah.

中文译文：但无论如何，卡拉卡拉。是的。

Anthony Kaldellis 00:50:28

英文原文：Yeah, so he issues this edict in 212 called the Constitutio Antoniniana, named after him. Some people at the time called it the Divine Decree, which basically extended citizenship to everybody. Now, we don’t know exactly why he did so. We can guess the reasons that he said he did so, and this was for religious reasons. In other words, he wanted people to go to the temples and pray and give thanks to the gods for him, for his survival out of a coup.

中文译文：是的，所以他在 212 年颁布了名为《安东尼尼宪法》的法令，以他的名字命名。当时有些人称之为神圣法令，基本上将公民权扩展到每个人。现在，我们并不确切知道他为什么这样做。我们可以猜测他这样做的原因，这是出于宗教原因。换句话说，他希望人们去寺庙祈祷并感谢神明，为他在政变中幸存下来。

Anthony Kaldellis 00:51:01

英文原文：Which is whatever. And it’s possible that there was some kind of religious motivation here, and he wanted everybody to do so as Roman citizens to honor the Roman gods and something like that. Other historians at the time said he did it for tax reasons. We don’t know exactly. There might even have been a kind of ideology of a unified community across the empire playing in his, if not in his mind, in that of the jurists, that is the legal advisors that he had. So that’s possible. But less interesting than his motivations, more interesting are the consequences of this—

中文译文：无论如何。这里可能有某种宗教动机，他希望每个人作为罗马公民都这样做，以纪念罗马诸神之类的。当时的其他历史学家表示，他这样做是出于税收原因。我们并不确切知道。甚至可能有一种整个帝国统一共同体的意识形态在他的脑海中发挥着作用，如果不是在他的脑海中的话，那就是法学家的意识形态，那就是他的法律顾问。所以这是可能的。但比他的动机更有趣的是它的后果——

Anthony Kaldellis 00:51:44

英文原文：… and what it tells us about the Roman community. So imagine a situation where, like, no modern empire has ever done this really, right? When what’s significant about the Roman case is that not only did they extend citizenship to everybody, but they meant it. This is something that had teeth. In other words, it meant that the rights and opportunities that were available to Roman citizens, say, in the Roman Senate at Rome- … are now available to everybody. And within a generation, you have a situation where, like, all of the emperors are provincials, right? All the most powerful people in the empire are from the provinces.

中文译文：......以及它告诉我们关于罗马社区的一切。所以想象一下这样一种情况，没有一个现代帝国真正做到过这一点，对吗？罗马案例的重要意义在于，他们不仅将公民身份扩展到每个人，而且是认真的。这是有牙齿的东西。换句话说，这意味着罗马公民享有的权利和机会，例如罗马元老院的权利和机会……现在可供所有人享有。在一代人之内，你会遇到这样一种情况，所有的皇帝都是外省人，对吗？帝国所有最有权势的人都来自行省。

Lex Fridman 00:52:25

英文原文：This is, like, mind-breaking, mind-blowing. This is incredible. The fact that the Roman Empire was able to do this, and it stuck.

中文译文：这真是令人心碎、令人兴奋。这太不可思议了。事实上，罗马帝国能够做到这一点，并且一直坚持下去。

Anthony Kaldellis 00:52:33

英文原文：They did it, and they meant it.

中文译文：他们做到了，而且也是认真的。

Lex Fridman 00:52:34

英文原文：And they meant it.

中文译文：他们是认真的。

Anthony Kaldellis 00:52:35

英文原文：Yes.

中文译文：是的。

Lex Fridman 00:52:35

英文原文：They implemented it. It was real. That tells you, that’s an important thing that tells you a lot of information about the populace of the Roman Empire. That the fact that it stuck, that the government meant it, that the system encouraged, incentivized the government to mean it. It’s incredible.

中文译文：他们实施了它。这是真的。这告诉你，这是一件重要的事情，它告诉你很多关于罗马帝国民众的信息。事实上，它坚持下来了，政府是认真的，这个制度鼓励、激励政府认真这样做。太不可思议了。

Anthony Kaldellis 00:52:54

英文原文：Yeah, and there’s a law of citizenship, and it, basically it says something like, “Anyone born within the Roman Empire is a Roman citizen.” And the Roman jurists and policymakers who were behind this had some very interesting ideas about, you know, creating this kind of community. Look, like, imagine if, I mean, it’s almost impossible to, to imagine, but the, the British at the time of the peak of the empire bestowed British citizenship on everyone, including in India, and, like, suddenly made positions of power in London available to people from India, like, including the throne. Like, it’s just unthinkable.

中文译文：是的，有一部公民法，基本上它是这样说的：“任何在罗马帝国出生的人都是罗马公民。”这背后的罗马法学家和政策制定者对于创建这种社区有一些非常有趣的想法。想象一下，我的意思是，几乎不可能想象，但是，英国在帝国鼎盛时期赋予每个人英国公民身份，包括印度人，并且突然让印度人可以在伦敦担任权力职务，包括王位。就像，这简直是不可想象的。

Anthony Kaldellis 00:53:34

英文原文：And that has to do, you know, with race and colonialism and all kinds of things, right? But not in the Roman Empire. So we have a situation where the emperors are all from the provinces. The most powerful officials are all from the provinces. And so a century later, when Constantinople is created, this is, it’s created, right, like, in, in the Bosporus, so, like, where modern Istanbul is, in the Eastern Roman Empire. It’s created within the preexisting Roman context, right? It doesn’t bring Romanness to the East. It’s already there. And so it’s not such a leap to create a center of Roman power in the East because of that.

中文译文：你知道，这与种族、殖民主义和各种各样的事情有关，对吗？但在罗马帝国却不然。所以我们就出现了皇帝都是来自各省的情况。最有权势的官员都来自各省。所以一个世纪后，当君士坦丁堡创建时，它是在博斯普鲁斯海峡创建的，就像现代伊斯坦布尔所在的东罗马帝国一样。它是在预先存在的罗马背景下创建的，对吗？它并没有把罗马性带到东方。它已经在那里了。因此，在东方建立罗马权力中心并不是一件容易的事。

Lex Fridman 00:54:13

英文原文：And you’ve helped put together a book on the history of intellectual thought in the East Roman Empire. But this is the interesting thing here, and I can ask that many times, but let me ask it here also, is the great man, the great woman view of history. Were there, like, Thomas Jefferson or those types of characters in the meetings as, as, as they’re executing on the edict or developing the edict? Is that important, or is it more about the system and the culture and just… … Is it, how important was it? ‘Cause this seems like a revolutionary idea, and when we think about the American Revolution and the founding documents, it seems like a few individuals-

中文译文：您还帮助编写了一本关于东罗马帝国知识分子思想史的书。但这是这里有趣的事情，我可以问很多次，但让我也在这里问，伟大的男人、伟大的女人的历史观。会议中是否有像托马斯·杰斐逊这样的人物，他们正在执行法令或制定法令？这重要吗，还是更多的是制度和文化，只是……是、有多重要？因为这似乎是一个革命性的想法，当我们思考美国革命和建国文件时，似乎有一些人——

Lex Fridman 00:54:55

英文原文：… were really critical about the wording of things, and then words matter because those words create the reality, and then it propagates through time.

中文译文：......我们对事物的措辞非常挑剔，然后文字很重要，因为这些文字创造了现实，然后它随着时间传播。

Anthony Kaldellis 00:55:03

英文原文：Yeah. For the edict, I suspect that yes, there were a few people who were behind it, and quite possibly jurists, that is, Roman legal scholars. And 212 is in an age of very important Roman legal scholars: Ulpian, for example, and others. But we just don’t have those… We have- … minutes of the meetings for the- … American Revolution. Not only do we not know who was in the room, we don’t actually even have the whole edict. We have a papyrus fragment, this is a piece of ancient paper- … that’s mostly torn and mutilated, and we have, like, a bit of a paragraph from it.

中文译文：是的。对于这份法令，我怀疑是的，背后有一些人，很可能是法学家，即罗马法律学者。 212 年是一个非常重要的罗马法律学者的时代：例如乌尔比安（Ulpian）等人。但我们只是没有那些……我们有——……美国革命的会议记录。我们不仅不知道房间里有谁，而且实际上甚至没有整个法令。我们有一张纸莎草碎片，这是一张古老的纸——……大部分都被撕裂和残缺不全，我们有，比如，其中的一小段。

Anthony Kaldellis 00:55:39

英文原文：In Greek, not even the Latin original. And it’s kind of torn, but it actually preserves the key clause. Right? And that’s, that’s all we have of the original. We have contemporary sources that mention it, we have legal documents, but nothing like a, like we can talk about the people involved in it. Or even how it was immediately implemented. Like, suddenly we know everyone in the provinces, like, there’s this explosion in the number of people called Aurelius, because that was his, his Roman family name. And so when you acquired citizenship from that edict, you became an Aurelius. Right? And there are lots of Aurelii suddenly all over the place. Like, we can see it immediately. But we can’t actually see the implementation.

中文译文：在希腊语中，甚至不是拉丁语原文。它有点撕裂，但它实际上保留了关键条款。正确的？这就是我们所拥有的所有原始内容。我们有当代的消息来源提到它，我们有法律文件，但没有什么比我们可以谈论参与其中的人更好的了。甚至是如何立即实施的。就像，突然间我们认识了各省的每个人，就像，被称为奥勒留的人数激增，因为那是他的罗马姓氏。因此，当您通过该法令获得公民身份时，您就成为了奥勒留（Aurelius）。正确的？突然间到处都是奥雷利。就像，我们可以立即看到它。但我们实际上看不到具体的实现。

Lex Fridman 00:56:26

英文原文：But your instinct says that it was very, individuals were very important in the development of that idea and execution of it.

中文译文：但你的直觉告诉你，个人在这个想法的发展和执行中非常重要。

Anthony Kaldellis 00:56:33

英文原文：Probably, yeah. Yeah. Even though it’s part of a long-term process of expanding Roman citizenship, this was an explosion, not just an expansion.

中文译文：可能是的。是的。尽管这是扩大罗马公民身份的长期过程的一部分，但这是一次爆炸，而不仅仅是一次扩张。

Lex Fridman 00:56:43

英文原文：And then you said that one of the important aspects about this edict is that giving equal rights to provincials was one of the things that helped deal with the crisis of the third century, and was the thing that, I think you said, quote, “sapped discontent from the relevant populations,” which then minimized the probability of uprisings.

中文译文：然后你说，这项法令的一个重要方面是，给予省份平等权利是帮助解决第三世纪危机的事情之一，而且，我想你说过，“消除了相关民众的不满”，从而最大限度地减少了起义的可能性。

Anthony Kaldellis 00:57:07

英文原文：Well, now that’s a very long-term process. Now, the third century is chaos, there’s a crisis, it’s a mess, right? So what follows the edict is quite a few decades of unrest.

中文译文：好吧，这是一个非常长期的过程。现在，第三世纪是混乱的，有危机，一团糟，对吗？所以法令颁布之后，就是几十年的动乱。

Lex Fridman 00:57:20

英文原文：Okay, let’s put it mildly. Let’s talk about the crisis of the third century, where 26 emperors were murdered in a period of 50 years.

中文译文：好吧，让我们温和地说。我们来谈谈第三世纪的危机，50 年间有 26 位皇帝被谋杀。

Anthony Kaldellis 00:57:30

英文原文：Yes. It’s tremendous instability.

中文译文：是的。这是巨大的不稳定。

Lex Fridman 00:57:33

英文原文：So there’s civil wars nonstop. Almost all of these emperors were generals, and almost all were murdered by their men. So civil war was the norm, hyperinflation, economic crash, plus there’s a plague- … from 249 to 262 AD, which is a pandemic, possibly smallpox or Ebola. It killed up to 5,000 people a day in Rome alone, devastating the tax base and army recruitment pool. And the empire fractured into three pieces, but then Emperor Aurelian miraculously reconquered them in a period of five years. So just a lot of chaos. It, it deserves the name, the Crisis of the Third Century.

中文译文：所以内战不断。这些皇帝几乎都是将军，也几乎都是被手下谋杀的。因此，内战是常态，恶性通货膨胀，经济崩溃，再加上瘟疫……从公元 249 年到 262 年，这是一场大流行，可能是天花或埃博拉。仅在罗马，每天就有多达 5,000 人丧生，摧毁了税收基础和军队招募库。帝国分裂成三部分，但奥勒良皇帝在五年内奇迹般地重新征服了它们。所以只是很多混乱。它，它名副其实，“三世纪危机”。

Anthony Kaldellis 00:58:20

英文原文：Yeah, it’s a perfect storm. Yeah, I mean, you have a crisis of imperial legitimacy. Basically, the army’s proclaiming emperors left and right. In an odd sense, ironically, this is in part because there are now a lot more stakeholders in the Roman tradition, right? There’s all of these provincial armies, and they’re appointing their generals as rival emperors. But you also have a serious uptick in foreign invasions.

中文译文：是的，这是一场完美的风暴。是的，我的意思是，帝国的合法性存在危机。基本上就是左右军队称帝。具有讽刺意味的是，从一种奇怪的意义上来说，这部分是因为现在罗马传统中有更多的利益相关者，对吗？这里有所有这些省级军队，他们任命自己的将军为竞争对手的皇帝。但外国入侵也严重增加。

Anthony Kaldellis 00:58:47

英文原文：In the north, you have the creation of the Sasanian Persian or Iranian Empire in the east, and this was very, very bellicose. So lots of foreign defeats. Armies are defeated by, you know, like, quote, “barbarian enemies.” You have eventually inflation, and you have plague. And so under the pressure, right, of all of those forces, it almost fell apart. Now, it didn’t actually. Inevitably, there are also historians who downplay the crisis. Of course, right, like, and legitimately so, right? We must push back against every of these characterizations.

中文译文：在北方，在东方建立了萨珊波斯或伊朗帝国，这是非常非常好战的。国外的失败太多了。军队被“野蛮的敌人”击败。最终会出现通货膨胀，然后出现瘟疫。因此，在所有这些力量的压力下，它几乎崩溃了。现在，事实并非如此。不可避免地，也有历史学家淡化这场危机。当然，对吧，就像，这是合理的，对吧？我们必须反对所有这些特征。

Lex Fridman 00:59:23

英文原文：26 emperors died, bro. What do you-

中文译文：兄弟，死了 26 个皇帝。你是什么-

Anthony Kaldellis 00:59:25

英文原文：That’s just the emperors. That’s just the emperors. We’re… No, we should be l-

中文译文：那只是皇帝们。那只是皇帝们。我们是……不，我们应该是——

Lex Fridman 00:59:29

英文原文：I’m sorry. In 50 years. Every other year, emperor dead.

中文译文：对不起。 50 年后。每隔一年，皇帝就死一次。

Anthony Kaldellis 00:59:33

英文原文：Yeah, that’s-

中文译文：是的，那就是——

Lex Fridman 00:59:34

英文原文：Civil war

中文译文：内战

Anthony Kaldellis 00:59:34

英文原文：… that’s political instability at the top, right? But what-

中文译文：……这就是高层政治不稳定，对吧？但是什么-

Lex Fridman 00:59:38

英文原文：Right, that’s not-

中文译文：对了，这不是——

Anthony Kaldellis 00:59:39

英文原文：… what are the lives of most people? So if you go to Egypt, for example, which is kind of out of the… Right? What’s going on there? How are people living there? And we can see how people are living in Egypt because we have all these papyrus documents from Egypt.

中文译文：……大多数人的生活是什么样的？例如，如果你去埃及，这有点……对吧？那里发生了什么事？那里的人们生活怎么样？我们可以看到人们在埃及的生活，因为我们有来自埃及的所有这些纸莎草文件。

Lex Fridman 00:59:52

英文原文：That’s true.

中文译文：这是真的。

Anthony Kaldellis 00:59:53

英文原文：And for the most part, they don’t seem to be experiencing a crisis.

中文译文：在大多数情况下，他们似乎没有经历危机。

Lex Fridman 00:59:56

英文原文：I mean, this is something you talk about. Constantine, as we’ll get to him, is one of the most murderous leaders in all of human history, if you consider his own family. But if you’re living in the provinces, you know there’s… He’s not-

中文译文：我的意思是，这就是你谈论的事情。如果你考虑一下他自己的家人，我们将要谈到的康斯坦丁是人类历史上最凶残的领导人之一。但如果你住在外省，你就会知道……他不是——

[60:00]

Anthony Kaldellis 01:00:13

英文原文：Oh, yeah, yeah

中文译文：哦，是啊，是啊

Lex Fridman 01:00:14

英文原文：… he’s not that murderous.

中文译文：……他没那么凶残。

Anthony Kaldellis 01:00:15

英文原文：No, no, no, he’s perfectly fine. Yeah, yeah.

中文译文：不，不，不，他很好。是啊是啊。

Crisis of the Third Century

Lex Fridman 01:00:16

英文原文：So it’s very important to actually remember about what the actual experience of the average citizen of the empire is like. Fair. Okay, so but how… Maybe there’s more we could say about the crisis. And then, of course, the crisis is in part resolved by Diocletian as he does a hard reset on the structure of the Roman system of government. So maybe you could speak a little bit more to the crisis that’s important for us to understand, and how Diocletian solves the crisis in 284 AD.

中文译文：因此，真正记住帝国普通公民的实际经历是非常重要的。公平的。好吧，但是如何……也许关于这场危机我们还有更多可以说的。当然，戴克里先对罗马政府体系的结构进行了硬重置，部分解决了这场危机。所以也许你可以多谈谈这场对我们理解很重要的危机，以及戴克里先如何解决公元 284 年的危机。

Anthony Kaldellis 01:00:48

英文原文：Right. So again, these are processes rather than specific events. So for example, you mentioned that the empire kind of breaks into pieces.

中文译文：正确的。再说一遍，这些都是过程而不是特定事件。例如，你提到帝国有点分裂。

Lex Fridman 01:00:57

英文原文：Yes.

中文译文：是的。

Anthony Kaldellis 01:00:57

英文原文：And we have what’s called sometime the Empire of the Gauls. Gaul are modern France and sort of Britain, for a while are, for a decade and a half or so, are kind of like this little separatist- … empire. So what’s interesting about that is that this was not an attempt to break away from the empire. In other words, it’s not some discontent provincials who are just tired of Roman rule and wanna break away and do their own thing. No. This is actually just a, it’s an attempt by provincial generals to take the throne, and does it to rule the entire empire. It doesn’t work. They get only as far as the provinces that they take. And the only way that they know to set up a state is to make it a Roman state.

中文译文：我们有所谓的高卢帝国。高卢是现代法国，有点像英国，在一段时间内，在十五年左右的时间里，有点像这个小小的分离主义帝国。有趣的是，这并不是试图脱离帝国。换句话说，并不是一些不满的外省人只是厌倦了罗马的统治，想要脱离并做自己的事情。不，这其实只是一个，省将企图夺取皇位，统治整个帝国。这不起作用。他们只能到达他们占领的省份。他们知道建立国家的唯一方法就是使其成为罗马国家。

Anthony Kaldellis 01:01:43

英文原文：Right? Like, that’s the total of their political imaginary is like, “Well, we’re just gonna do a Roman thing here.” And maybe we’ll get, you know, we’ll reunite the empire ourselves, or as happened, Aurelian, that is someone from the other side, will reunite the empire. But it’s always a Roman model. Like, there’s, it’s almost like there’s no alternatives by this point. So that’s interesting. What Diocletian does essentially is the, the way I characterize it sometimes is that he turns the problem into its own solution. In other words, the problem is too many emperors or wanna-be emperors. Because there’s just more going on. Like, one emperor can’t deal with all these problems along the frontiers, with all the political problems.

中文译文：正确的？就像，这就是他们政治想象的全部，就像，“好吧，我们只是要做一件罗马式的事情。”也许我们会，你知道，我们会自己重新统一帝国，或者就像发生的那样，奥勒良，来自另一边的人，会重新统一帝国。但它始终是罗马模式。就像，到目前为止，几乎没有其他选择。这很有趣。戴克里先本质上所做的是，我有时描述它的方式是，他将问题转化为自己的解决方案。换句话说，问题在于皇帝或想当皇帝的人太多。因为还有更多事情正在发生。就像，一位皇帝无法处理所有这些边境问题和所有政治问题。

Anthony Kaldellis 01:02:29

英文原文：So what he does is he deputizes some of his colleagues, people he was on very good terms with from the army. These are all Illyrians. They’re from… By the way, for a few centuries, the emperors are all from this region of the former Yugoslavia that’s the size of Scotland. Like, that’s where they all come from.

中文译文：因此，他所做的就是委托他的一些同事，这些同事是他在军队中关系非常好的人。这些都是伊利里亚人。他们来自……顺便说一句，几个世纪以来，皇帝们都来自前南斯拉夫的这个地区，面积相当于苏格兰。就像，他们都是从那里来的。

Lex Fridman 01:02:44

英文原文：Well, what explains that?

中文译文：嗯，这怎么解释呢？

Anthony Kaldellis 01:02:46

英文原文：The army. These are military men. Sometimes hard-drinking military men. Very good at their job like Aurelian, you mentioned, right? So there’s a series of Illyrian emperors who restore stability. And the reason why there’s so many Illyrian emperors is ’cause they worked their way up through the ranks of the army. And, you know, the regions of Yugoslavia at that time are sufficiently, you know, economically underdeveloped that there’s a strong incentive for young men to go join the army ’cause, you know, it’s a living.

中文译文：军队。这些是军人。有时是酗酒的军人。你提到过，像 Aurelian 一样，他们的工作非常出色，对吗？因此，出现了一系列恢复稳定的伊利里亚皇帝。之所以有这么多伊利里亚皇帝，是因为他们是在军队中一步步晋升的。而且，你知道，当时南斯拉夫地区的经济很不发达，年轻人有很强的动力去参军，因为，你知道，这是一种谋生手段。

Anthony Kaldellis 01:03:21

英文原文：And so Illyrians become, like, kind of the backbone of the Roman army, and they’re described as these, you know, tough Roman conservative types. I mean, these are, you know, these are, these are tough military guys. I say that to draw a contrast between, say, Hadrian, whom I mentioned earlier- … you know, who was a much more sophisticated, artsy, poetic, cosmopolitan emperor. Also a hard-ass. You did not wanna mess with Hadrian. But these guys from the third century are military men through and through. Like, their whole careers are, are in the army. And they have, like, the military stubble. They’ve got these thick necks. They look angry. They’ve got their hands on their swords. Like, they’re not projecting an image of sort of- … calm and sophisticated, you know, bum-bum, you know.

中文译文：因此，伊利里亚人成为罗马军队的中坚力量，他们被描述为强硬的罗马保守派。我的意思是，这些是，你知道，这些是，这些都是坚强的军人。我这样说是为了与我之前提到的哈德良皇帝进行对比……你知道，他是一位更加世故、富有艺术气息、富有诗意、国际化的皇帝。也是个硬汉。你不想惹哈德良。但这些来自三世纪的家伙是彻头彻尾的军人。就像，他们的整个职业生涯都是在军队中。他们有军事胡茬。他们的脖子很粗。他们看起来很生气。他们把手放在剑上。就像，他们并没有展现出一种……冷静和成熟的形象，你知道，流浪汉，你知道。

Lex Fridman 01:04:08

英文原文：So, military men. … Military men from Aurelian.

中文译文：所以，军人。 ……来自奥勒良的军人。

Anthony Kaldellis 01:04:11

英文原文：Yep. So Diocletian gets a gang of them together. They, eventually there are four. We call this the Tetrarchy. And he basically allocates them to various… This wasn’t any kind of hard division of the empire. Basically, it was a collaborative project. They each went wherever they were needed.

中文译文：是的。所以戴克里先把他们聚集在一起。他们，最终是四个。我们称之为四帝制。他基本上将它们分配给各个……这并不是帝国的任何硬性划分。基本上，这是一个合作项目。他们每个人都去了需要他们的地方。

Lex Fridman 01:04:31

英文原文：Was it, is it fair to say that there was four administrative zones? He allocated each one to a zone?

中文译文：是不是,说有四个行政区,公平吗?他给每个人分配了一个区域？

Anthony Kaldellis 01:04:38

英文原文：Broadly. I’d say more military zones. So the administration tends to operate, it kind of humming along in the background wherever these emperors happen to be, right? This is a, we’re talking about a period of big government now. So Diocletian creates a larger government, possibly a larger army, and in order to pay for that, you need more systematic and effective taxation- … which means you need more census, you need more bureaucracy, you need more collect… you know? So it is an era of bigger government.

中文译文：广义上来说。我想说更多的军事区。因此，政府往往会在这些皇帝恰好在的地方在后台嗡嗡作响，对吗？这是一个，我们现在谈论的大政府时期。因此，戴克里先创建了一个更大的政府，可能是一支更大的军队，为了支付这个费用，你需要更系统和更有效的税收——……这意味着你需要更多的人口普查，你需要更多的官僚机构，你需要更多的税收……你知道吗？所以这是一个大政府的时代。

Lex Fridman 01:05:05

英文原文：So just to linger on that point- … is it fair to say that Diocletian created the deep state? Quote, “deep state.” So the tax collectors, the, the logistics, the thing that you’ve kinda hinted at, which is the separation of the civil and the military layer of society.

中文译文：所以，只是停留在这一点上——……可以说戴克里先创造了深层政府吗？引用“深层政府”。所以，税收人员，后勤，你有点暗示的事情，就是社会的民事和军事层的分离。

Anthony Kaldellis 01:05:21

英文原文：So the concept of a deep state, I’ve had discussions about that with experts who work on the idea of the deep state, and I’m not sure that I would characterize the Roman Empire that way, in part because while you do have big government, you do have bureaucracy, you have, you have bureaucrats who are buried in various echelons, and you know, nobody knows exactly what they’re doing and things like that, I have not come across the idea of some sort of sinister elements, you know, who are working within the administrative apparatus to undermine the emperor. Like, from a distance occasionally, you might get glimpses of this kind of thing. Diocletian, for example, once complained that, “Nobody ever tells me anything.” In other words, like, he’s so removed-

中文译文：因此，关于“深层国家”的概念，我与研究“深层国家”概念的专家进行了讨论，我不确定我是否会这样描述罗马帝国，部分原因是虽然你确实有大政府，但你确实有官僚机构，你有，你有埋藏在各个梯队中的官僚，你知道，没有人确切知道他们在做什么以及类似的事情，我没有遇到过某种邪恶分子的想法，你知道，他们正在工作在行政机构内削弱皇帝的权力。就像，偶尔从远处，你可能会瞥见这种东西。例如，戴克里先曾抱怨说：“没有人告诉我任何事情。”换句话说，就像，他是如此遥远——

Anthony Kaldellis 01:06:07

英文原文：… in part from the realities of what’s going on on the ground that he felt sometimes he’d lost touch. But I don’t find this kind of idea of undermining imperial power from within the bureaucracy.

中文译文：……部分原因是他有时觉得自己失去了联系，因为现实中正在发生的事情。但我在官僚机构内部并没有发现这种削弱皇权的想法。

Lex Fridman 01:06:21

英文原文：Yeah, I think the, one of the ways to explain that is because, so, you know, in the modern day, democracy in quotes, there’s a kinda temporary nature to the leader at the top. So it’s incentivized the deep state to form. That, so the deep state thinks of themselves as a thing that propagates long-term periods of time, and then the leader is a very ephemeral short, short-term thing. With a, with an emperor, technically- … you can go for a long time, so it’s best to be integrated deeply. With, the bureaucracy should be integrated with the leader. It makes sense.

中文译文：是的，我认为解释这一点的方法之一是因为，所以，你知道，在现代，引号中的民主，高层领导者有一种临时性。所以它刺激了深层政府的形成。因此，深层政府认为自己是一个可以长期传播的东西，而领导者则是一个非常短暂的、短期的东西。跟一个，跟一个皇帝，技术上——……可以走很长一段时间，所以最好是深度融合。与之相伴，官僚机构应该与领导融为一体。这是有道理的。

Anthony Kaldellis 01:06:55

英文原文：Yeah. But al-

中文译文：是的。但阿尔-

Lex Fridman 01:06:56

英文原文：Fair enough.

中文译文：很公平。

Anthony Kaldellis 01:06:57

英文原文：… also in modern social thought or fear is that the deep state might be undermining, say-

中文译文：……在现代社会思想或恐惧中，深层政府可能正在破坏，比如说——

Lex Fridman 01:07:04

英文原文：Undermining, yeah.

中文译文：破坏，是的。

Anthony Kaldellis 01:07:05

英文原文：… the democracy itself rather than, right, rather than… It can cut both ways.

中文译文：……民主本身，而不是，对，而不是……它可以是双向的。

Lex Fridman 01:07:09

英文原文：But there is a bureaucracy. There is a big government.

中文译文：但有一个官僚机构。有一个大政府。

Anthony Kaldellis 01:07:13

英文原文：Absolutely. Yeah.

中文译文：绝对地。是的。

Lex Fridman 01:07:14

英文原文：There’s a big machinery.

中文译文：有一个大型机械。

Anthony Kaldellis 01:07:15

英文原文：Yeah, compared to before.

中文译文：是的，和以前相比。

Lex Fridman 01:07:17

英文原文：Before.

中文译文：前。

Anthony Kaldellis 01:07:17

英文原文：Yes. So Diocletian creates these larger bureaucratic structures, and these are the ones that define the society that I study. So as a specialist, I focus on the period after him mostly. But he implemented those to solve a lot of these problems. He was mostly successful. So in terms of generating revenue from a much more troubled and kind of precarious situation in sustaining large armies and putting down these rebellions and usurpations. And he was generally successful at doing that. So he created the model that they kept for the next, well, three centuries or more.

中文译文：是的。因此，戴克里先创造了这些更大的官僚结构，这些结构定义了我所研究的社会。所以作为一名专家，我主要关注他之后的时期。但他实施了这些措施来解决很多这样的问题。他基本上是成功的。因此，在维持庞大军队并镇压这些叛乱和篡夺方面，从更加麻烦和不稳定的局势中创造收入方面。他在这方面总体上是成功的。所以他创造了一个模型，他们在接下来的三个世纪或更长时间里一直保留着这个模型。

Lex Fridman 01:08:00

英文原文：But a lot of the elements of that model lasted even beyond that, right?

中文译文：但该模型的许多元素甚至超越了这一点，对吧？

Anthony Kaldellis 01:08:04

英文原文：Yeah, like universal taxation. I’ll give you an example. Up until then, Italy was exempt from taxes. Italy was the land of the conquerors. The conquerors don’t pay taxes to themselves. The conquerors live off the taxes that others pay, right? So Italy was this big tax haven, right? Diocletian, Galerius, you know, his guys, these guys are from Illyria. They’re from the Balkans.

中文译文：是的，就像普遍征税一样。我给你举个例子。在此之前，意大利一直免税。意大利是征服者的土地。征服者不给自己纳税。征服者靠别人缴纳的税金生活，对吗？那么意大利是一个大避税天堂，对吗？戴克里先、加莱里乌斯，你知道，他的人，这些人来自伊利里亚。他们来自巴尔干地区。

Anthony Kaldellis 01:08:27

英文原文：Like why is Italy tax-free exactly, you know? That doesn’t make any sense. It’s a very, very wealthy, prosperous part of the world, and so, no, they tax Italy. So now, like, not only do all Romans have the same citizenship and the same law, they all have the same tax system, and the Diocletianic tax code, as it were, it’s not a code, it sounds like a flat tax, which for us sounds regressive. But by those standards, by the standards of that time, it’s actually kind of progressive in a way.

中文译文：就像为什么意大利完全免税，你知道吗？这没有任何意义。这是世界上非常非常富裕、繁荣的地区，所以，不，他们对意大利征税。所以现在，不仅所有罗马人都拥有相同的公民身份和相同的法律，他们都拥有相同的税收制度，而戴克里先税法，可以说，它不是一个法典，听起来像是单一税，对我们来说，这听起来是累退的。但按照这些标准，按照当时的标准，它实际上在某种程度上是进步的。

Lex Fridman 01:08:56

英文原文：Right.

中文译文：正确的。

Anthony Kaldellis 01:08:57

英文原文：It means that, like, even— … elites paid, like, the same, right? Yeah.

中文译文：这意味着，就像，甚至……精英们付出的，就像，一样，对吧？是的。

Lex Fridman 01:09:01

英文原文：So how much of all of this, everything we’ll talk about in the coming centuries, is all about taxation?

中文译文：那么，这一切，以及我们在未来几个世纪将讨论的一切，有多少都是与税收有关的呢？

Anthony Kaldellis 01:09:08

英文原文：I think it’s huge. Taxation is the heart of it.

中文译文：我认为这是巨大的。税收是其核心。

Lex Fridman 01:09:12

英文原文：So I mean, the functioning, the success, the flourishing of a society, the way the government works, the way the people are represented, all of it has to do, all the civil wars and everything, it feels like taxation is at the core.

中文译文：所以我的意思是，一个社会的运作、成功、繁荣，政府的运作方式，人民的代表方式，所有这一切，所有内战和一切，感觉税收是核心。

Anthony Kaldellis 01:09:25

英文原文：Yes. Yeah. If you asked me to put my finger on one factor, it would be that.

中文译文：是的。是的。如果你让我指出一个因素，那就是。

Lex Fridman 01:09:30

英文原文：So the taxation system, that feels like the early framework for the East Roman Empire.

中文译文：所以税收制度，感觉就像东罗马帝国的早期框架。

Anthony Kaldellis 01:09:37

英文原文：It did create a more sort of homogeneous framework, for sure. By the end of the third century, it’s pretty much in place. What Diocletian does is a universal census, and this is continued by his successors. So every taxable asset in the empire is censused. And so you can now start to have a budget.

中文译文：当然，它确实创建了一个更加同质的框架。到了三世纪末，它已经基本就位了。戴克里先所做的是全民人口普查，他的继任者也继续这样做。因此，帝国的每一项应税资产都受到普查。现在您可以开始制定预算了。

Lex Fridman 01:09:59

英文原文：Now, there is some element, and then you push back against that, some element of Diocletian where he legally limited social and class mobility in part for the taxation system, and made it, in many cases, illegal to move and illegal to quit your job. For example, as I read to guarantee the food supply and land tax, farmers were legally forbidden from moving away from the land they worked, so the state always knew who to tax. And then for soldiers, sons of veterans were legally obligated to serve in the army to maintain troop numbers. You argue that these were tax enforcement mechanisms, not a rigid caste system, and so in practice, the empire remained a society of high mobility.

中文译文：现在，有一些因素，然后你反对戴克里先的一些因素，他在法律上限制了社会和阶级流动，部分是为了税收制度，并在许多情况下规定，搬家和辞职都是非法的。例如，当我读到保证粮食供应和土地税时，法律禁止农民离开他们耕种的土地，因此国家总是知道向谁征税。然后对于士兵来说，退伍军人的儿子有法律义务在军队服役以维持部队数量。你认为这些是税收执行机制，而不是严格的种姓制度，因此实际上，帝国仍然是一个高度流动的社会。

[70:00]

Anthony Kaldellis 01:10:50

英文原文：This is a complicated matter. So let’s talk, for example, about soldiers. It’s probably the case that most soldiers’ sons were expected to succeed them. Like most professions where you have an apprenticeship, the son will usually succeed, right? There are a number of other professions that were kind of guild-like in nature, like, for example, shipping.

中文译文：这是一个复杂的问题。例如，我们来谈谈士兵。大多数士兵的儿子可能会继承他们的职位。就像大多数需要学徒期的职业一样，儿子通常会成功，对吗？还有许多其他职业本质上有点像行会，例如航运。

Anthony Kaldellis 01:11:15

英文原文：Where there were considerable assets involved in order to secure contracts for insurance purposes for the ships and so forth, and it made sense for those assets to be, you know, passed from father to son. In other words, and with them comes the obligation to continue in that line of work. Some of these things are inherently sort of hereditary, and I don’t think most people would have objected to it. The farmers is probably the only case where it might have actually involved some coercion. There was a category of farmers, and we don’t know how many of them, who were, for fiscal purposes, bound to the land. This doesn’t mean they couldn’t leave the land, like physically. No one’s preventing them from leaving.

中文译文：为了获得船舶等保险目的的合同，涉及大量资产，并且这些资产从父亲传给儿子是有意义的。换句话说，随之而来的是继续从事这一工作的义务。其中一些东西本质上是遗传的，我认为大多数人不会反对。农民可能是唯一可能实际上涉及一些胁迫的案例。有一个农民类别，我们不知道其中有多少人出于财政目的而与土地绑定。这并不意味着他们不能离开这片土地，比如身体上的。没有人阻止他们离开。

Anthony Kaldellis 01:12:03

英文原文：But they were fiscally responsible for providing the taxes or rents or whatever because the, the state wanted to have a secure revenue stream from, say, those lands. And if… Anyway, it’s, it’s one of these complicated situations. This did create some limitations on, on those people. And it’s a topic of current research, these bound farmers, as it were, who are tied to the land. It’s more of a… You know, someone put it that, you know, most of the time it’s people who own the land, and in this arrangement, it’s the land that owns the, that owns the people.

中文译文：但他们在财政上负责提供税收或租金或其他任何东西，因为国家希望从这些土地上获得稳定的收入来源。如果……无论如何，这是复杂的情况之一。这确实对这些人造成了一些限制。这是当前研究的一个主题，这些被束缚的农民，可以说是与土地联系在一起的。这更像是……你知道，有人说，大多数时候是人拥有土地，在这种安排下，是土地拥有人民。

Lex Fridman 01:12:36

英文原文：But you’re saying the bigger picture thing is that there was mobility.

中文译文：但你说的是更大的问题是流动性。

Anthony Kaldellis 01:12:39

英文原文：Oh, there’s considerable mobility.

中文译文：噢，流动性很大。

Lex Fridman 01:12:40

英文原文：So class mobility- … and physical mobility- … meaning people moved… And we’ll see this from the West into the East and Constantinople and all this kind of stuff.

中文译文：所以阶级流动性——……和身体流动性——……意味着人们流动……我们将看到从西方到东方和君士坦丁堡以及所有这些东西。

Anthony Kaldellis 01:12:48

英文原文：Oh, yeah. There’s tons of mobility. No, no, this is not a society where people are bound really to… We, like, we don’t find anybody who’s, who’s like, “Ah, I really don’t wanna be a soldier. But my father was a soldier, and I’m obligated to be one.” Like- … like, we just don’t hear those kinds of complaints- … of people who don’t wanna be a so- Why wouldn’t you wanna be a soldier in the Roman Empire? I mean, it’s got tremendous perks.

中文译文：哦，是的。有大量的流动性。不，不，这不是一个人们真正有义务的社会……我们，我们没有找到任何人，谁会说，“啊，我真的不想成为一名士兵。但我的父亲是一名士兵，我有义务成为一名士兵。”就像-...就像，我们只是听不到那些抱怨-...那些不想成为那样的人-为什么你不想成为罗马帝国的一名士兵？我的意思是，它有巨大的好处。

Lex Fridman 01:13:12

英文原文：So can we just linger on the why is it that Diocletian was able to stabilize the empire? It’s like, you know, the crisis of the third century really threatened to tear apart everything. So why did some of these things that we talked about stabilize?

中文译文：那么，我们是否可以继续思考戴克里先为何能够稳定帝国呢？就像，你知道的，第三世纪的危机确实有可能撕裂一切。那么为什么我们谈论的一些事情会稳定下来呢？

Anthony Kaldellis 01:13:30

英文原文：Well, Aurelian had already united the empire territorially.

中文译文：好吧，奥勒良已经在领土上统一了帝国。

Anthony Kaldellis 01:13:33

英文原文：So this is right before Diocletian. And what Diocletian did was put in place a system that reduced the number of rebellions. Simply by having four big guys with four armies, they managed to put out all of those fires, or most of them. And once you have stability, and he also beat the Persians, I mean, Galerius did, so starting to beat back foreign invasions, that creates a framework for economic stability. People need to, you know, if they’re going to invest in, like, land reclamation or expand production, they need to know that, you know, foreigners aren’t gonna come rampaging through, marauding through, you know, stealing their cattle and, you know, enslaving them and taking them off to work on agricultural farms in Mesopotamia. Like, they need to know this.

中文译文：所以这是在戴克里先之前。戴克里先所做的是建立一个减少叛乱数量的制度。仅仅通过四个大人物和四支军队，他们就成功扑灭了所有火灾，或者说大部分火灾。一旦实现稳定，他也击败了波斯人，我的意思是，加莱里乌斯做到了，所以开始击退外国入侵，这为经济稳定创造了一个框架。人们需要，你知道，如果他们要投资，比如，开垦土地或扩大生产，他们需要知道，你知道，外国人不会横冲直撞，掠夺，偷走他们的牛，你知道，奴役他们，带他们去美索不达米亚的农场工作。就像，他们需要知道这一点。

Anthony Kaldellis 01:14:20

英文原文：And if you provide that context of stability, the economic growth, the demographic growth will return. And Diocletian created that kind of, that context.

中文译文：如果你提供稳定的环境，经济增长、人口增长就会回归。戴克里先创造了那种背景。

Lex Fridman 01:14:30

英文原文：So that takes us to Constantine, but first a quick bathroom break, if I can.

中文译文：我们就这样去了康斯坦丁，但如果可以的话，先去趟厕所休息一会儿。

Anthony Kaldellis 01:14:35

英文原文：Sure.

中文译文：当然。

Constantine and the new Roman Empire

Lex Fridman 01:14:36

英文原文：Quick ten-second thank you to our sponsors. Check them out in the description. It really is the best way to support this podcast. Go to lexfridman.com/sponsors. And now, dear friends, back to our conversation about the Eastern Roman Empire. All right, we’re back, and let’s talk about Constantine and Constantinople. Let’s go to the rise of the East Roman Empire. Who was Constantine? Tell me about his rise to power and the founding of Constantinople in 330 AD.

中文译文：快速感谢我们的赞助商十秒钟。在描述中查看它们。这确实是支持这个播客的最佳方式。请访问 lexfridman.com/sponsors。现在，亲爱的朋友们，回到我们关于东罗马帝国的谈话。好吧，我们回来了，我们来谈谈君士坦丁和君士坦丁堡。让我们回顾一下东罗马帝国的崛起。康斯坦丁是谁？告诉我他的权力崛起和公元 330 年君士坦丁堡的建立。

Anthony Kaldellis 01:15:08

英文原文：Sure. So Constantine was the son of one of Diocletian’s colleagues, so he comes from within the system. And the system was actually designed to be non-hereditary. In other words, the senior emperors would retire, the junior ones would move up to the senior position, and then they would recruit two new ones. And they tried to skip the dynastic element. So, so it would be kind of, let’s just say, kinda meritocratic, not whose son, you know, you were. Constantine was a son. He was passed over, but the armies liked him. He was actually quite competent.

中文译文：当然。所以君士坦丁是戴克里先一位同事的儿子，所以他来自体制内部。该系统实际上被设计为非遗传性的。也就是说，老皇帝退了，小皇帝升到了高位，然后又招收了两个新皇帝。他们试图跳过王朝元素。所以，所以，我们可以说，有点精英统治，而不是你是谁的儿子。康斯坦丁是一个儿子。他被忽视了，但军队喜欢他。他其实很有能力。

Anthony Kaldellis 01:15:43

英文原文：And so there’s a series of civil wars among all of these successors of Diocletian, and Constantine emerges as the winner. There are periods when there are quite a few of them. There are, like, six at a time, but they gradually dwindle down to one. So yeah, it’s as long as you have the quarterfinals, semifinals, and then the, the final war, and Constantine emerges in 324 as the sole ruler of the entire Roman Empire. So that’s who he is. He’s, he’s definitely an insider, very, very competent general at civil war. And he gradually moves eastward. So as he’s conquering his rivals, who are often at times his fathers-in-law or his brothers-in-law, because these people all intermarry, and they have alliances, and they fall out.

中文译文：因此，戴克里先的所有继承者之间发生了一系列内战，而君士坦丁成为胜利者。有时它们的数量相当多。大约一次有六个，但逐渐减少到一个。所以，是的，只要你有四分之一决赛、半决赛，然后是最后的战争，君士坦丁就会在 324 年成为整个罗马帝国的唯一统治者。所以他就是这样的人。他绝对是一位内战中非常非常有能力的内战将军。他逐渐向东移动。因此，当他征服他的对手时，这些对手有时是他的岳父或姐夫，因为这些人都通婚，他们有联盟，但他们却闹翻了。

Anthony Kaldellis 01:16:29

英文原文：It’s one of those kinds of situations. He moves eastward, and by the time he defeats his last rival, an emperor called Licinius, in 324 he’s in the East. And Licinius had his headquarters, or one of his headquarters, at this town called Byzantium. Byzantium is a city right where Constantinople was founded.

中文译文：这就是其中一种情况。他向东移动，当他在 324 年击败最后一个对手、一位名叫李锡尼的皇帝时，他已经在东方了。李锡尼的总部，或者说他的总部之一，就在这个叫做拜占庭的城镇。拜占庭是君士坦丁堡的建立地。

Anthony Kaldellis 01:16:53

英文原文：And it is at exactly the point where Europe meets Asia, so on the Bosporus. And it’s a very strategic location. It always had been, right? So whoever controls the straits of the Bosporus, yeah, we don’t need to explain how important that is. And Constantine decides to create a city named after himself, Constantinople, on that spot, Byzantium. So Byzantium essentially ceases to exist as a city and is replaced by Constantinople, AKA New Rome. So it’s pretty clear that right from the beginning, Constantine intended this to be a kind of branch office of Rome in the East, a kind of copy and paste of Rome in the East, and it’s a plan that his successors continued, right?

中文译文：它恰好位于欧洲与亚洲的交汇处，博斯普鲁斯海峡也是如此。这是一个非常具有战略意义的位置。一直都是这样，对吧？所以无论谁控制了博斯普鲁斯海峡，是的，我们不需要解释这有多重要。君士坦丁决定在那个地方建立一座以他自己的名字命名的城市，君士坦丁堡，拜占庭。因此，拜占庭作为一个城市基本上不再存在，取而代之的是君士坦丁堡，又名新罗马。所以很明显，从一开始，君士坦丁就打算将其作为东方罗马的分支机构，一种东方罗马的复制和粘贴，这是他的继任者继续的计划，对吧？

Anthony Kaldellis 01:17:37

英文原文：Now, there are a number of other cities in this, let’s say, in the generation or two before this, that were also treated as sort of quasi-Romes. Basically, there was this historian in the third century who said, “Well, wherever the emperor is, that’s Rome,” right? ‘Cause emperors are now itinerant. They’re no longer staying at Rome. They’re mostly on the frontier, and Constantine is one of these frontier emperors. They will sometimes visit Rome, maybe once or twice, maybe once a decade, you know, something like this. So Rome becomes something that can be sort of copied and pasted in other parts of the empire, and a bunch of other cities get called, you know, a New Rome, an Other Rome, an Alternative Rome, My Rome. And Constantinople is the last and most successful of those.

中文译文：现在，这里还有许多其他城市，比如说，在这之前的一两代人中，也被视为某种准罗马。基本上，这位三世纪的历史学家说：“好吧，皇帝在哪里，那就是罗马，”对吧？因为现在皇帝都是流动的。他们不再留在罗马。他们大多生活在边疆，而君士坦丁就是这些边疆皇帝之一。他们有时会访问罗马，也许一两次，也许十年一次，你知道，类似这样的事情。因此，罗马成为可以复制并粘贴到帝国其他地区的东西，并且许多其他城市被称为新罗马，另一个罗马，另类罗马，我的罗马。君士坦丁堡是其中最后一个也是最成功的。

Lex Fridman 01:18:28

英文原文：So maybe can you speak geographically the importance of Constantinople? It’s an interesting place ’cause it- … when you’re talking about a land so large as the West and the East, with enemies, with threats from all kinds of different directions, the location where the emperor sits is important.

中文译文：那么您能否从地理角度谈谈君士坦丁堡的重要性？这是一个有趣的地方，因为……当你谈论像西方和东方这样大的土地，有敌人，有来自各个不同方向的威胁时，皇帝坐的位置很重要。

Anthony Kaldellis 01:18:46

英文原文：Very. So look at Rome, right? So it’s right in the middle of Italy, right in the middle of the Mediterranean. Very safe location in a way, but it’s very far from the frontiers. And this is a period when emperors need to be with the armies, right? They’re not senatorial emperors who are sitting in Rome having meetings with senators. They are military emperors who are marching along the frontiers mostly with generals rather than civilian administration. So they’re doing their job. Like, this is the hard work. They’re slogging through the mud of winter campaigns, right?

中文译文：非常。那么看看罗马吧？所以它就在意大利的中部，就在地中海的中部。从某种程度上来说，位置非常安全，但距离边境很远。而这个时期，是皇帝需要随军的时期吧？他们不是坐在罗马与参议员开会的元老皇帝。他们是军事皇帝，主要与将军而不是文官一起沿着边境行军。所以他们正在做他们的工作。就像，这就是艰苦的工作。他们正在冬季战役的泥泞中艰难前行，对吗？

Anthony Kaldellis 01:19:24

英文原文：They’re not just sitting in a palace enjoying themselves when they could. But Rome just becomes inconvenient because of that. And if you look at Constantinople, it is kind of halfway between the Danube frontier and the Euphrates frontier. So if you want to prioritize the East or treat it as an equal part of the Roman Empire, as these emperors all did. In fact, almost all emperors who had a choice about whether they would stay in the East or stay in the West chose the East. There’s only one who chooses the West, and that’s Valentinian later in the fourth century. All the others understand that the East is where it’s at. And Constantinople is right between the Danube and the Euphrates. These are two major frontiers. And so it allows emperors to move between the two.

中文译文：他们不只是在可以的时候坐在宫殿里享受乐趣。但罗马正因此变得不方便。如果你看看君士坦丁堡，你会发现它位于多瑙河边境和幼发拉底河边境之间。因此，如果你想优先考虑东方或将其视为罗马帝国的平等部分，就像这些皇帝所做的那样。事实上，几乎所有在选择留在东方还是留在西方的皇帝都选择了东方。只有一个人选择了西方，那就是四世纪后期的瓦伦提尼安。所有其他人都明白东方就是它所在的地方。君士坦丁堡位于多瑙河和幼发拉底河之间。这是两个主要领域。因此它允许皇帝在两者之间移动。

[80:00]

Anthony Kaldellis 01:20:13

英文原文：And also look at its location: north, south, east, west, right? So north, south, it is the node between the Black Sea and the Mediterranean, right? And east, west, it’s precisely where Europe meets Asia, right? And because there’s a break there, so there’s a Bosporus, the Sea of Marmara, the Hellespont, the Roman Empire during the civil wars, it would tend to break there.

中文译文：还要看看它的位置：北、南、东、西，对吧？那么北，南，它是黑海和地中海之间的节点，对吧？东方、西方，正是欧洲与亚洲交汇的地方，对吧？因为那里有断裂，所以有博斯普鲁斯海峡、马尔马拉海、赫勒斯滂海峡、内战期间的罗马帝国，它往往会在那里断裂。

Anthony Kaldellis 01:20:38

英文原文：And you would have one emperor on one side in Asia, and you would have another emperor on the other side. And this just kept happening. And Constantinople ultimately functions as a kind of clamp that unifies this whole area, so basically the Balkans and Asia Minor and Syria as a kind of unit, right? And, you know, what is a new Rome? A new Rome is, among other things, a new senate, right? And Constantine and his successors recruit this new senate for the new Rome. So we’re talking about maybe two and a half thousand, 3,000 men, you know, at, at, at its peak, and these are all recruited from all of these areas. You know, some come from Rome, but others come from the Aegean region, from Asia Minor, Eastern Mediterranean.

中文译文：在亚洲的一侧会有一位皇帝，而在另一侧则有另一位皇帝。而这种情况一直在发生。君士坦丁堡最终起到了统一整个地区的作用，所以基本上巴尔干半岛、小亚细亚和叙利亚是一个单位，对吧？而且，你知道什么是新罗马吗？除其他外，新罗马就是新元老院，对吗？君士坦丁和他的继任者为新罗马招募了这个新元老院。所以我们谈论的可能是二千五千人、三千人，你知道，在巅峰时期，这些人都是从所有这些地区招募的。要知道，有的来自罗马，有的则来自爱琴海地区、小亚细亚、东地中海。

Anthony Kaldellis 01:21:32

英文原文：So these are the wealthiest people, usually most well-connected elites from the whole Eastern Mediterranean, and they come together and form a new purpose, common purpose in Constantinople. And the empire never breaks there again. Right? So it, it holds together this part of the world. The breaking point now, interestingly, moves to the Adriatic, right? So when, in 395, we talked about East and West kind of splitting.

中文译文：因此，这些人是最富有的人，通常是整个东地中海人脉最广的精英，他们聚集在一起，在君士坦丁堡形成了一个新的目标，共同的目标。帝国再也不会在那里崩溃。正确的？所以它，它将世界的这一部分团结在一起。有趣的是，现在的转折点转移到了亚得里亚海，对吗？所以，在 395 年，我们谈到了东西方的分裂。

Anthony Kaldellis 01:21:57

英文原文：It breaks at the Adriatic ’cause Constantinople is now holding that whole Eastern world together. ‘Cause all of these elites, they now, they’re invested in it. They’re literally investing in it. They have to invest in it in order to be senators in Constantinople. So that’s kind of one of the functions that it, that it performs, a strategic function. There’s a political function. There’s also a cultural one, but you know, we can talk about that, too. But that’s what you see there on that map, the northwest, east, south.

中文译文：它在亚得里亚海破裂，因为君士坦丁堡现在将整个东方世界团结在一起。因为所有这些精英现在都对此进行了投资。他们确实在投资。他们必须投资才能成为君士坦丁堡的参议员。所以这就是它所执行的功能之一，战略功能。有一个政治功能。还有文化方面的问题，但你知道，我们也可以讨论这个问题。但这就是你在地图上看到的东西，西北、东部、南部。

Lex Fridman 01:22:24

英文原文：So just to linger on it, so you, you do a podcast, Byzantium and Friends, but you’re also a guest on podcasts, and I should mention you being a guest multiple times on the excellent The History of Byzantium podcast hosted by Robin Pierson. I highly recommend people listen to it, to all of your appearances. You have a lot of really fascinating ones. But the reason I bring all that up is, one of the episodes, you do the fun thing of selecting the top 10 emperors of Byzantium, and spoiler alert, everybody should go listen to the full list ’cause you justify all the different options. But Constantine ends up in the number one spot. And so can you just add a little bit more depth why he would be in your number one spot- … now that we’re talking about him?

中文译文：所以，为了停留在这个问题上，所以你，你做了一个播客，《拜占庭和朋友》，但你也是播客的嘉宾，我应该提到你多次在罗宾·皮尔森主持的出色的拜占庭历史播客中担任嘉宾。我强烈建议人们听听你的所有表演。你有很多真正令人着迷的。但我提出所有这些的原因是，其中一集，你做了一件有趣的事情，选择了拜占庭的十大皇帝，并且剧透警告，每个人都应该去听完整的列表，因为你证明了所有不同的选择都是合理的。但康斯坦丁最终排名第一。那么，你能否再补充一点深度，为什么他会成为你的第一名——……现在我们正在谈论他？

Anthony Kaldellis 01:23:17

英文原文：Yes. It’s not because I sort of like him as a person, right? I mean- … as you said, he was pretty murderous. Right? All those wars, so clearly ambitious, murderous, ruthless, basically.

中文译文：是的。这并不是因为我有点喜欢他这个人，对吧？我的意思是——正如你所说，他非常凶残。正确的？所有这些战争基本上都是野心勃勃、凶残、残酷的。

Lex Fridman 01:23:30

英文原文：Can you actually speak to the murderous aspect? He seemed to have murdered a lot of people in his family.

中文译文：你真的能谈谈凶残的一面吗？他似乎杀了他家族里的很多人。

Anthony Kaldellis 01:23:36

英文原文：Yes, that’s because what we call his family were also alliances of convenience that he made on the way to the top. And when those alliances or, you know, those, you know, those wives or those fathers-in-law were no longer convenient or, or turned against him, he had no hesitation in removing them. But he’s also, you know, he gets a, a little extra bonus because he also murdered his own son, Crispus, who was- … apparently a very competent and popular kind of general, and we don’t know why. He executes Crispus soon after defeating Licinius, and then follows it up with the murder of his wife-

中文译文：是的，那是因为我们所说的他的家人也是他在走向顶峰的过程中结成的便利联盟。当这些联盟，或者，你知道，那些，你知道，那些妻子或那些岳父不再方便，或者转而反对他时，他会毫不犹豫地取消它们。但他也，你知道，他得到了一点额外的奖金，因为他还谋杀了自己的儿子克里斯普斯，克里斯普斯是……显然是一位非常有能力和受欢迎的将军，我们不知道为什么。他在击败李锡尼后不久就处决了克里斯普斯，然后又谋杀了他的妻子——

Anthony Kaldellis 01:24:18

英文原文：… not Crispus’ mother, and we don’t know why. The funny thing is that when emperors do this sort of thing, if there’s any kind of remotely, like, a good reason, they’ll blast it through all of the media, right? Like, “Crispus was rebelling against me,” or whatever. There’s nothing. He doesn’t even try to justify it, which means it must have been something unjustifiable. Like, I don’t know. I can’t process it.

中文译文：……不是克里斯普斯的母亲，我们不知道为什么。有趣的是，当皇帝做这种事情时，如果有任何远程的，比如，一个好的理由，他们会通过所有媒体进行轰炸，对吧？比如，“克里斯普斯在反抗我”之类的。什么也没有。他甚至没有试图证明这一点，这意味着这一定是不合理的事情。就像，我不知道。我无法处理它。

Lex Fridman 01:24:41

英文原文：And also, I read that the historians of the time would just ignore that that happened.

中文译文：而且，我读到当时的历史学家会忽略那件事的发生。

Anthony Kaldellis 01:24:47

英文原文：Yes. Well, sort of. So when Crispus is alive, it’s all, like, praising Crispus as, “Oh, Constantine, you great emperor, and your wonderful son who will…” whatever. And then Crispus is executed, and he just disappears from the, like- … they never talk about him.

中文译文：是的。嗯，有点像。所以当克里斯普斯活着的时候，人们都会称赞克里斯普斯，“哦，康斯坦丁，你伟大的皇帝，还有你出色的儿子，他会……”无论如何。然后克里斯普斯被处决，他就从那里消失了，就像……他们从不谈论他。

Lex Fridman 01:25:02

英文原文：Yeah. Actually, as another side to a side, I think you mentioned whether it’s on your podcast or elsewhere, that if you had to have a beer with any of the emperors, you probably wouldn’t. So it’s not like some of the most impactful, some of the most influential and great emperors that we talk about, they might not be very pleasant people.

中文译文：是的。事实上，作为另一方，我想你提到过，无论是在你的播客还是其他地方，如果你必须和任何一位皇帝喝啤酒，你可能不会。所以这不像我们谈论的一些最有影响力、最有影响力和最伟大的皇帝，他们可能不是非常令人愉快的人。

Anthony Kaldellis 01:25:27

英文原文：Right. So let’s set aside whether you’d like to have a beer with these people. The reason I put Constantine at the top of the list is because the decisions that he made were so consequential, just important, and for the most part, not bad decisions. So I couldn’t not put him at the top of the list. The, you know, creating Constantinople and converting to Christianity and setting the empire on a path to conversion, these are major, like, world history level decisions.

中文译文：正确的。所以，让我们先把你是否愿意和这些人一起喝啤酒放在一边。我之所以将康斯坦丁放在名单的首位，是因为他做出的决定非常重要，而且在大多数情况下，都不是糟糕的决定。所以我不能不把他放在名单的首位。你知道，创建君士坦丁堡、皈依基督教、让帝国走上皈依之路，这些都是世界历史层面的重大决策。

Anthony Kaldellis 01:26:02

英文原文：Right? Now, not many emperors do that. In fact, Constantine is in, like, his own league when it comes to those kinds of decisions. My other criteria for top emperors were basically those who did the job well, right? Not making, you know, these kinds of earth, you know, shattering decisions or, you know, world history changing decisions, but just who performed the role competently with results that impacted the lives of their subjects for the better. So those are the other criteria that I used. It’s difficult to juggle these different criteria, right, in order to create a systematic list. And by the way, we, historians, generally don’t do these kinds of things. But you said it’s fun.

中文译文：正确的？现在，这样做的皇帝并不多。事实上，康斯坦丁在做出此类决定时，就像是他自己的联盟。我对顶级皇帝的其他标准基本上就是那些做得好的人，对吧？不是做出这些地球上的毁灭性决定，或者改变世界历史的决定，而只是谁出色地履行了这一职责，并取得了使臣民的生活变得更好的结果。这些是我使用的其他标准。很难兼顾这些不同的标准，对吧，以创建一个系统的列表。顺便说一句，我们历史学家通常不会做这类事情。但你说这很有趣。

Lex Fridman 01:26:44

英文原文：It’s fun.

中文译文：这很有趣。

Anthony Kaldellis 01:26:44

英文原文：It is fun.

中文译文：这很有趣。

Lex Fridman 01:26:45

英文原文：It was fun. It was fun.

中文译文：很有趣。很有趣。

Anthony Kaldellis 01:26:45

英文原文：And it allows you to talk about certain things that you might not otherwise do. So yeah, that’s why Constantine was at the top.

中文译文：它可以让你谈论某些你本来不会做的事情。是的，这就是康斯坦丁位居榜首的原因。

Christianity in the Roman Empire

Lex Fridman 01:26:53

英文原文：So you mentioned Christianity. That was one other big component of his rule. What was the role of Christianity in Constantine’s life, in the lives of the citizens of the new Roman Empire?

中文译文：所以你提到了基督教。这是他统治的另一重要组成部分。基督教在君士坦丁的生活和新罗马帝国公民的生活中扮演什么角色？

Anthony Kaldellis 01:27:08

英文原文：At this stage, Christianity doesn’t have a role. It actually took the emperors… When the emperors took it on board, that is, they made it a part of the imperial system, then it began to acquire a role within the system. Previously, it had imagined itself as having its own history, like not necessarily part of the empire or affiliated with imperial power. But after Constantine, it does acquire a role.

中文译文：在这个阶段，基督教没有任何作用。它实际上是把皇帝拿来了……当皇帝把它拿上船，也就是把它变成了帝国体系的一部分，那么它就开始在这个体系中发挥作用了。此前，它曾想象自己有自己的历史，不一定是帝国的一部分，也不一定隶属于皇权。但在君士坦丁之后，它确实发挥了作用。

Lex Fridman 01:27:34

英文原文：And so actually, one way to ask that question, which is fascinating, ’cause you said that there’s like, there’s Rome, and then there’s like cultures or traditions like Christianity or being Greek, that kind of thing. So one of the ways to ask this question is: does Christianity triumph over Rome, or did Rome capture Christianity?

中文译文：事实上，问这个问题的一种方式很有趣，因为你说有罗马，然后有像基督教或希腊人这样的文化或传统。所以问这个问题的方法之一是：基督教战胜了罗马，还是罗马占领了基督教？

Anthony Kaldellis 01:27:58

英文原文：Right. Yes. That’s a—

中文译文：正确的。是的。那是一个——

Lex Fridman 01:28:00

英文原文：Which is the mechanism?

中文译文：机制是哪一个？

Anthony Kaldellis 01:28:04

英文原文：I would lean more toward the second. In other words, that the religion was co-opted by the imperial system. Now, there are many areas in which that’s not the case and where the opposite happens, so I’m not gonna be absolute about it, but I think it’s very important to recognize that because Christianity generates this narrative of triumph— … right, which modern historians perpetuate, and it’s framed in very particular ways. In other words, that Christianity triumphs over the ancient religions.

中文译文：我更倾向于第二个。换句话说，该宗教被帝国制度所吸收。现在，有很多领域的情况并非如此，并且发生了相反的情况，所以我不会对此绝对，但我认为认识到这一点非常重要，因为基督教产生了这种胜利的叙述……对，现代历史学家延续了这种叙述，并且它以非常特殊的方式构建。换句话说，基督教战胜了古代宗教。

Anthony Kaldellis 01:28:31

英文原文：Right? So displacing Zeus and Apollo and all of that, and animal sacrifice is gone, and like, that’s because Christianity triumphs, and that’s a very narrow way of looking at it. In other words, you pick your enemy, and then you can defeat that enemy, right? But if you look in the other direction, there’s, like, the Roman imperial state, and you cannot say that Christianity either triumphed over it or even tamed it or anything. It actually became part of it.

中文译文：正确的？因此，取代了宙斯和阿波罗以及所有这些，动物祭祀也消失了，这是因为基督教取得了胜利，这是一种非常狭隘的看待它的方式。换句话说，你选择了你的敌人，然后你就可以打败那个敌人，对吗？但如果你看另一个方向，就像罗马帝国一样，你不能说基督教战胜了它，甚至驯服了它或其他什么。它实际上成为了它的一部分。

Anthony Kaldellis 01:28:56

英文原文：In many ways that, you know, determined its history for centuries and, in fact, down to today. So this is very different, for example, from the history of Islam. So Islam comes into existence without a preexisting state to receive it and take it on board. It creates its own state, right? So the Muslim armies, they conquer this empire, and then they have to sort of govern it. They think according to whatever Islamic principles. The Quran doesn’t say anything about running an empire.

中文译文：你知道，这在很多方面决定了它几个世纪以来的历史，事实上，一直延续到今天。例如，这与伊斯兰教的历史非常不同。因此，伊斯兰教的诞生并没有一个预先存在的国家来接受它并接受它。它创建了自己的状态，对吧？因此，穆斯林军队征服了这个帝国，然后他们必须对其进行治理。他们根据任何伊斯兰原则思考。《古兰经》没有提及任何关于管理帝国的内容。

Anthony Kaldellis 01:29:29

英文原文：So that creates a completely different society, right, where, like, Islam is really a primary kind of identity and, like, drives a lot of developments. But Christianity comes into existence within a very well-developed society and political system. Now, here’s the thing. We don’t know exactly how many Christians existed in the time of Constantine. Well, we speculate maybe 10% of the empire. That might be very high, right? But even if it’s 10%, it’s not a lot, and these are not, like, elites for the most part. Maybe middle, you know, what we loosely call middle class, a few elites, a few slaves, like this kind of thing. Mostly urban, and keeping in mind, most of the population is rural.

中文译文：因此，这就创造了一个完全不同的社会，对吧，伊斯兰教实际上是一种主要的身份，并且推动了很多发展。但基督教是在一个非常发达的社会和政治体系中存在的。现在，事情是这样的。我们不知道君士坦丁时代有多少基督徒。嗯，我们推测可能是帝国的 10%。这可能非常高，对吧？但即使是 10%，也不是很多，而且这些人大部分都不是精英。也许中产阶级，你知道，我们宽松地称之为中产阶级，一些精英，一些奴隶，就像这样的东西。大多数是城市人口，请记住，大多数人口是农村人口。

[90:00]

Anthony Kaldellis 01:30:14

英文原文：Right? So pockets of concentrated, you know, Christian groups in cities. That’s what we’re talking about. Not terribly politically powerful.

中文译文：正确的？所以你知道，城市中有一些集中的基督教团体。这就是我们正在谈论的。政治上没有多大权力。

Lex Fridman 01:30:22

英文原文：So Constantine’s conversion to Christianity and moving the empire towards Christianity is not something where it’s a gigantic majority of the people— … or it’s a political convenience because it’s the elites. It’s something else. I mean, it’s a pretty revolutionary decision, I would say.

中文译文：因此，君士坦丁皈依基督教以及将帝国推向基督教并不是绝大多数人的事……或者是政治上的便利，因为这是精英的事。这是另一回事。我的意思是，我想说，这是一个相当革命性的决定。

Anthony Kaldellis 01:30:38

英文原文：Exactly. Now, there used to be theories that Constantine did this for, like, pragmatic, cynical reasons, that he, like, wasn’t a true Christian or anything, but there was some kind of political gain to be had here. But I have never read a convincing account of what exactly that political gain is. We now know that there are fewer Christians. They were not that influential. You can make an argument that bishops are a kind of convenient social influencers, you might say. Like, you can use those. They’re not a threat to your position.

中文译文：确切地。现在，曾经有理论认为君士坦丁这样做是出于务实、愤世嫉俗的原因，他不是真正的基督徒或其他什么，但这里有某种政治利益。但我从未读过关于政治收益到底是什么的令人信服的描述。我们现在知道基督徒越来越少了。他们没有那么有影响力。你可能会说，你可以说主教是一种方便的社会影响者。就像，你可以使用那些。他们不会对你的职位构成威胁。

Anthony Kaldellis 01:31:08

英文原文：Right? So a bishop is not gonna try to take the throne. So they’re not dangerous political operatives in that way. But they do have some influence over sectors of society, and so that might be a… Okay, I see that, but I don’t quite see the argument for, like, going full Christian just to get the support of some bishops, who actually pretty quickly turn out to be, some of them, more trouble than they’re worth. Anyway, so I have not yet seen a convincing political argument for Constantine’s decision, which means that you then fall back on a personal explanation that he did this because he was a believing Christian, right? And he came out, you know, in support of the religion that he held, and that’s kind of where most scholars are today.

中文译文：正确的？所以主教不会试图夺取王位。因此，他们并不是危险的政治人物。但他们确实对社会各阶层有一定的影响力，所以这可能是……好吧，我明白了，但我不太明白这样的论点，比如，完全成为基督徒只是为了获得一些主教的支持，实际上他们很快就会发现，其中一些人带来的麻烦比他们应得的还要多。无论如何，所以我还没有看到关于君士坦丁决定的令人信服的政治论据，这意味着你会求助于个人解释，他这样做是因为他是一名虔诚的基督徒，对吧？你知道，他出来支持他所信仰的宗教，这就是今天大多数学者的处境。

Anthony Kaldellis 01:31:53

英文原文：Though, I gotta tell you, historians are very uncomfortable about personal choice, like explaining history in terms of these kinds of personal choices. Because Constantine’s conversion is like, it’s massive. It opens the door. It incentivizes so many people to also convert.

中文译文：不过，我得告诉你，历史学家对个人选择感到非常不舒服，比如用这种个人选择来解释历史。因为康斯坦丁的转变是巨大的。它打开了门。它也激励了很多人皈依。

Anthony Kaldellis 01:32:11

英文原文：‘Cause Romans will generally do what their, you know, rulers will tell them. If we’ve mentioned Hadrian a few times, Hadrian had this lover, Antinous, Greek boy from Bithynia, who died in an accident in Egypt, whatever, and Hadrian said basically that Antinous should be regarded as a god throughout the empire. And he was. We have, like, more statues and busts of Antinous from all of these temples all over the empire than I think of anyone else except Hadrian. So yeah, if the emperor says, like, “This is a person who’s a god now, you know, put statues of him everywhere,” they will. And when Constantine comes out in favor of Christianity, you know, suddenly people discover that, oh, this is an interesting rite. It’s got the support of the emperor.

中文译文：因为罗马人通常会做他们的统治者告诉他们的事情。如果我们多次提到哈德良，哈德良有一个情人，安提诺斯，来自比提尼亚的希腊男孩，在埃及的一场事故中丧生，无论如何，哈德良基本上说安提诺斯应该被视为整个帝国的神。他确实是。我们在整个帝国的所有这些寺庙中拥有的安提诺乌斯雕像和半身像比我想象的除了哈德良之外的任何人都多。所以，是的，如果皇帝说，“这个人现在是神了，你知道，到处都放他的雕像，”他们会的。当君士坦丁站出来支持基督教时，你知道，人们突然发现，哦，这是一个有趣的仪式。得到了皇帝的支持。

Lex Fridman 01:32:53

英文原文：So one of the things here, going to the Perplexity, Constantine’s conversion to Christianity is usually dated to 312 AD linked to a visionary experience before the Battle of the Milvian Bridge. Do you believe that vision, that he had this religious experience before the Battle of the Milvian Bridge? Here it says, “But historians debate both its nature and its sincerity.”

中文译文：因此，这里的一件事，说到困惑，君士坦丁皈依基督教通常可以追溯到公元 312 年，这与米尔维安桥战役之前的异象经历有关。你相信他在米尔维安桥战役之前有过这种宗教经历的异象吗？这里说，“但历史学家对其性质和诚意都存在争议。”

Anthony Kaldellis 01:33:18

英文原文：Well—

中文译文：出色地-

Lex Fridman 01:33:18

英文原文：Do you believe the sincerity of that experience?

中文译文：你相信那次经历的诚意吗？

Anthony Kaldellis 01:33:20

英文原文：Before we even get to the sincerity— … is the problem of the sources. This is reported by authors writing later in the aftermath of a victory when the emperor… Like, one of them had a dinner conversation with the emperor a few decades later, and he said, “Well, let me tell you about the Milvian Bridge.” And it’s like, okay, I’m not gonna believe that. I’m not gonna take that at face value, rather. It’s a much more complicated… You know, this is how the emperor wants things to be remembered.

中文译文：在我们表达诚意之前——……就是消息来源的问题。这是作者在胜利后所写的，当时皇帝……比如，几十年后，他们中的一个人与皇帝进行了一次晚餐谈话，他说：“好吧，让我告诉你有关米尔维安桥的事。”就像，好吧，我不会相信这一点。相反，我不会从表面上理解这一点。这要复杂得多……你知道，这就是皇帝希望人们记住的方式。

Anthony Kaldellis 01:33:43

英文原文：That’s different. Also, Constantine tended to have a lot of religious visions. He had had religious visions of Apollo before Christ, and we have sources that talk about that, too, that he went to this temple in Gaul, and Apollo appeared to him in the form of light. Okay, Constantine has a religious vision every time he kind of wants to shift policies and his, like, profile. Like, when he wanted to break away from his other emperors who used to go for the—like, they went for this kind of Jupiter/Hercules model. And he shifted to an Apollo model. This is a branding. This is emperors doing branding.

中文译文：那是不同的。此外，君士坦丁往往有很多宗教愿景。他曾在基督面前看到过阿波罗的宗教异象，我们也有消息来源谈到，他去了高卢的这座神庙，阿波罗以光的形式向他显现。好吧，每当君士坦丁想要改变政策和他的形象时，他都会有一个宗教愿景。就像，当他想摆脱其他皇帝的束缚时，他们就选择了这种朱庇特/赫拉克勒斯模型。他转向了阿波罗模型。这是一个品牌。这是皇帝在做品牌。

Lex Fridman 01:34:15

英文原文：So we should say that, as you’ve described, Constantine is a pragmatist. He’s very pragmatic. But you’re saying it’s fair to believe, based on the evidence, that he actually converged towards being a Christian believer.

中文译文：所以我们应该说，正如你所描述的，康斯坦丁是一个实用主义者。他非常务实。但你是说，根据证据，可以公平地相信，他实际上已经成为一名基督教信徒。

Anthony Kaldellis 01:34:32

英文原文：Yeah. It’s very possible, in fact plausible, that he thought the Christian God had helped him in battle. And, you know, for someone like him, that’s as good a reason as any to support that god.

中文译文：是的。他很可能认为基督教的上帝在战斗中帮助了他，事实上这似乎是合理的。而且，你知道，对于像他这样的人来说，这是支持这位上帝的一个很好的理由。

Lex Fridman 01:34:44

英文原文：But he was not, like, a hardcore Christian all the way through. He was a kind of a spiritual, religious kind of person. He thought about religions more generally and just converged towards Christianity as a good religion. He also had ideas about what a good religion is— … and what a bad religion is, that kind of stuff. So he’s thinking in this space.

中文译文：但他自始至终都不是一个铁杆基督徒。他是一个有精神、有宗教信仰的人。他更广泛地思考宗教，并倾向于将基督教视为一种好的宗教。他还对什么是好的宗教……以及什么是坏的宗教等有一些想法。所以他在这个空间里思考。

Anthony Kaldellis 01:35:08

英文原文：He’s tending not to be too explicit. Depending on the audience. So Constantine remains a pragmatist in the sense that he doesn’t want to alienate too many of his subjects, right? And so he’s sometimes a bit coy or elusive about what he’s getting at. When he’s talking to Christians, he will talk about Christ. He will mention Christ. When he’s talking to everybody else in, like, a general law, he’ll just refer to good religion. And it’s like you, like, you, maybe you know what I mean, right? But he’s not gonna, like, you know, come to Jesus. Right?

中文译文：他倾向于不太直白。取决于观众。所以康斯坦丁仍然是一个实用主义者，因为他不想疏远太多的臣民，对吗？因此，他有时对自己的意思有点含糊其辞或难以捉摸。当他与基督徒交谈时，他会谈论基督。他会提到基督。当他在一般法律中与其他人交谈时，他只会提到好的宗教。就像你，你，也许你知道我的意思，对吧？但他不会，你知道，来到耶稣面前。正确的？

Anthony Kaldellis 01:35:44

英文原文：So even at the time when he’s, like, supporting the church, like, basically institutionalizing the church as an part—of the imperial system, but he’s also putting up statues of himself that look like Apollo in Constantinople, right? So the focal point of Constantine’s Constantinople is the Forum of Constantine. And in the middle is this very tall column, and it has a colossal statue of Constantine on top, gilded, enormous thing. I don’t know, like, eight meters tall or whatever. But it’s a repurposed Apollo. It’s even, it, like, visibly so. It’s naked. It has the rays coming out of the-

中文译文：因此，即使在他支持教会的时候，基本上将教会制度化为帝国体系的一部分，但他也在君士坦丁堡竖起了看起来像阿波罗的自己的雕像，对吗？所以君士坦丁君士坦丁堡的焦点就是君士坦丁论坛。中间是一根非常高的柱子，上面有一尊康斯坦丁的巨大雕像，镀金的，巨大的东西。我不知道，比如，八米高或其他什么。但这是一艘经过改造的阿波罗号。甚至，它，就像，明显如此。它是赤身裸体的。它有光线从-

Anthony Kaldellis 01:36:22

英文原文：… head, right? Right. And everybody knew it was an Apollo. So that’s Constantine in the guise of his old patron god, Apollo. Still, but he’s still Christian Constantine, so he’s sending all of these different messages.

中文译文：……头，对吧？正确的。每个人都知道这是阿波罗号。这就是君士坦丁以他的旧守护神阿波罗为幌子。尽管如此，但他仍然是克里斯蒂安·康斯坦丁，所以他正在发送所有这些不同的信息。

Lex Fridman 01:36:34

英文原文：I mean, he likes being the god-like figure. I mean, that whole statue just is like, “I am the god.”

中文译文：我的意思是，他喜欢成为神一样的人物。我的意思是，整个雕像就像是“我是神”。

Anthony Kaldellis 01:36:41

英文原文：Yeah. It’s assimilating yourself to… Yeah, yeah, yeah.

中文译文：是的。它让你自己同化……是啊，是啊，是啊。

Lex Fridman 01:36:43

英文原文：And I mean, a lot of the Romans, is it fair to say, kinda saw the emperor a little bit in that light?

中文译文：我的意思是，很多罗马人，公平地说，都有点从这个角度看待皇帝吗？

Anthony Kaldellis 01:36:48

英文原文：No, yeah. Oh, yeah. They called him divine and— yeah. That, there’s not a hard theology there, right? Like, if you pressed them on the actual theology, they wouldn’t— … they wouldn’t say the emperor is a god. No. This is mushy. This gets very, very mushy.

中文译文：不，是的。哦，是的。他们称他为神圣的——是的。那，那里没有严格的神学，对吧？就像，如果你向他们追问实际的神学，他们不会——……他们不会说皇帝是神。不，这是糊状的。这变得非常非常糊状。

Lex Fridman 01:37:01

英文原文：But I mean, a lot of the Christians have a kinda humility before God. I think when you have an emperor that’s god-like, it gets a little weird-

中文译文：但我的意思是，很多基督徒在神面前都有点谦卑。我认为当你有一个像神一样的皇帝时，它会变得有点奇怪-

Anthony Kaldellis 01:37:11

英文原文：Yes. Yes.

中文译文：是的。是的。

Lex Fridman 01:37:13

英文原文：… in the way you talk about God.

中文译文：......以你谈论上帝的方式。

Anthony Kaldellis 01:37:15

英文原文：It depends on the context. Like, there are contexts in which you are an emperor and you’re proclaiming your majesty, and then there are more personal contexts where you might be more humble because, I don’t know, you’re being baptized or something. Like, those are different contexts.

中文译文：这取决于上下文。比如，在某些情况下，你是皇帝，你在宣告你的威严，然后在更多的个人情况下，你可能会更加谦虚，因为我不知道，你正在接受洗礼或其他什么。就像，这些是不同的背景。

Lex Fridman 01:37:29

英文原文：So can you speak to the whole process of the conversion to Christianity, of the- … propagation of Christianity throughout the empire and Constantine’s role in that?

中文译文：那么您能谈谈皈依基督教、基督教在整个帝国传播的整个过程以及君士坦丁在其中的作用吗？

Anthony Kaldellis 01:37:38

英文原文：Constantine, or his successors as well, because this was a gradual process, and it takes a very long time. So let’s let’s put it into perspective. We probably can’t talk about a majority Christian society until maybe the 5th century, or early 5th— … mid-5th. We, we don’t have data, obviously. And we can’t talk about, like, a solidly Christian society until early 6th century. And by solidly, I mean maybe where the non-Christians are 10, 15%, right? So that’s a long time. That’s, like, five centuries after Jesus. That’s half a millennium. So we’re talking about a half-millennial process here. It’s, it’s very long.

中文译文：君士坦丁，或者他的继任者也是如此，因为这是一个渐进的过程，需要很长的时间。因此，让我们正确看待它。我们可能要到第五世纪，或者第五世纪初期——……第五世纪中期才能谈论基督教占多数的社会。显然，我们没有数据。直到六世纪初我们才能谈论一个坚定的基督教社会。我所说的“可靠”是指非基督徒可能占 10%、15%，对吗？所以那是很长一段时间。那是在耶稣之后的五个世纪。那是半个千年。所以我们在这里谈论的是一个半千年的过程。是的，很长。

Lex Fridman 01:38:25

英文原文：But it’s only a couple of centuries after Constantine.

中文译文：但这仅仅在君士坦丁之后几个世纪。

Anthony Kaldellis 01:38:28

英文原文：Yes.

中文译文：是的。

Lex Fridman 01:38:28

英文原文：So it takes- … about two centuries to really make the Roman Empire Christian

中文译文：所以需要……大约两个世纪才能真正使罗马帝国成为基督教

Anthony Kaldellis 01:38:34

英文原文：Yes. So very slow conversion, maybe, maybe up to 10% tops under Constantine. Then obviously larger and larger groups join the church, even if only nominally, right? Until you get to the sixth century when you’re clearly talking about a, you know, mostly or overwhelmingly Christian society. A lot of this is just done through incentives and disincentives, right? So bishops are given funds with which to distribute, like, charity and help to communities in distress. They have lists of widows and whatever they support. Land is given to the church by the emperors or in wills so that they can engage in this kind of social policy. And then there are disincentives. So emperors pass laws that increasingly restrict the exercise of traditional religion.

中文译文：是的。所以转换非常慢，也许在康斯坦丁领导下最多可达 10%。那么显然越来越多的团体加入教会，即使只是名义上的，对吗？直到六世纪，你才清楚地谈论一个，你知道，大部分或压倒性的基督教社会。其中很多都是通过激励和抑制措施来完成的，对吗？因此，主教们获得了资金，可以用来分发慈善物品，并帮助陷入困境的社区。他们有寡妇名单以及她们所支持的一切。土地由皇帝或遗嘱授予教会，以便他们能够参与这种社会政策。然后还有一些抑制因素。因此，皇帝们通过了越来越多地限制传统宗教活动的法律。

Anthony Kaldellis 01:39:25

英文原文：Like, you can’t perform animal sacrifices, then you can’t start doing these like tying ribbons to make wishes or, like, all of these things, like going out to sacred trees and doing this or that, because they say, “Oh, this is kind of nefarious business,” or, like, magic or whatever it is. And then they just gradually start outlawing it more and more, putting restrictions on, like, if you’re not a Christian, you can’t hold these high offices or you can’t… Your… There’s problems with your wills. So they gradually do it like that. And this is how you… Yeah, this is… And it works. It works.

中文译文：比如，你不能进行动物祭祀，那么你就不能开始做这些事情，比如系丝带许愿，或者所有这些事情，比如去圣树前做这个或那个，因为他们说，“哦，这是一种邪恶的行为”，或者，比如魔法或其他什么。然后他们逐渐开始越来越多地取缔它，并施加限制，比如，如果你不是基督徒，你就不能担任这些高级职位，或者你不能……你的……你的意志有问题。所以他们逐渐这样做。这就是你……是的，这就是……而且它有效。有用。

Lex Fridman 01:39:58

英文原文：What explains the success of Christianity after Constantine? Why, why was it, as a technology, so successful at spreading throughout the empire?

中文译文：如何解释君士坦丁之后基督教的成功？为什么它作为一项技术能够如此成功地在整个帝国传播？

[100:00]

Anthony Kaldellis 01:40:08

英文原文：Christianity developed in a number of ways. So it acquired a certain number of forms that were capable of appealing to different constituencies. In other words, there was an intellectual side to it, the sort of theology, the almost quasi-philosophical or engagement with philosophical schools that could draw in, let’s say, intellectuals. There is a public ceremony and ritual aspect where you can organize communities and cities to have processions or, like, have all these festivals that take the place of the ancient ones. You have a kind of, it’s not secretive, but it’s kind of this initiatory aspect where there’s this baptism and you learn a sort of creed, and you’re initiated into the religion with the prospect of a personal afterlife, right? And that appeals to other kinds of people.

中文译文：基督教以多种方式发展。因此它获得了一定数量的能够吸引不同选民的形式。换句话说，它有知识分子的一面，那种神学，几乎是准哲学的，或者与哲学流派的接触，可以吸引知识分子。有一个公共仪式和礼仪方面，您可以组织社区和城市举行游行，或者举办所有这些节日来代替古代节日。你有一种，这不是秘密的，但这是一种启蒙方面，有洗礼，你学习一种信条，你开始进入宗教，并有个人来世的前景，对吗？这对其他类型的人很有吸引力。

Anthony Kaldellis 01:41:12

英文原文：There’s also ways in which it integrated itself into the court and the language of power. Also in the army, right? Soldiers now swear an oath to the Trinity, right? So it takes all of these different forms that enable it to position itself, you know, here and there and, you know, in the streets, in the court, in the armies, in the churches, in texts, in books. And so it has this kind of manifold diversity, right, that makes it very adaptable.

中文译文：它还可以通过多种方式将自己融入宫廷和权力语言中。也在军队里吧？士兵们现在向三位一体宣誓，对吗？因此，它采取了所有这些不同的形式，使其能够在各处、在街道、在法庭、在军队、在教堂、在文本、在书籍中定位自己。因此它具有这种多样性，对吧，这使得它具有很强的适应性。

Lex Fridman 01:41:44

英文原文：So one of the things you mentioned that Constantine did not anticipate, did not realize, is that Christianity creates divisions between various groups.

中文译文：所以你提到的君士坦丁没有预料到、没有意识到的一件事是基督教在不同群体之间造成了分裂。

Anthony Kaldellis 01:41:53

英文原文：So in part, this is, happens when you have religions that make exclusive claims, right? Like, my beliefs are true- … and yours are by definition false. Not, not just wrong, but false and even kind of evil. Like maybe— … Satan put them in your mind to- … lead you astray, right? And this is inherently divisive. Like, it is. So there’s this paradox where Christianity, in contrast to, say, the ancient religions, is both far more polarizing but also far more powerful as a unifying force at the same time, right? So ancient religions tended not to produce this kind of conflict or identities, right, or wars or these kinds of things. And they could under certain circumstances, but for the most part, they were not drivers of history in this kind of way.

中文译文：因此，在某种程度上，当你有宗教提出排他性主张时，就会发生这种情况，对吧？就像，我的信念是真实的……而你的信念从定义上来说是错误的。不，不仅是错误的，而且是错误的，甚至是邪恶的。就像也许——……撒旦把它们放在你的脑海里——……引导你误入歧途，对吧？这本质上是分裂的。就像，确实如此。因此，存在这样一个悖论：与古代宗教相比，基督教既更加两极分化，同时作为一种统一力量也更加强大，对吗？所以古代宗教往往不会产生这种冲突或身份、权利、战争或此类事情。在某些情况下他们可以，但在大多数情况下，他们不是以这种方式推动历史的。

Anthony Kaldellis 01:42:47

英文原文：But when you have exclusive claims, then suddenly these very communities that are sort of consolidated and have this very strong identity, but you also alienate other groups— … that you then are in conflict with. So this is why I, for one, can’t come down on whether, you know, Christianity is more of a unifying force or a divisive force in the history of the Eastern Empire, because it’s both.

中文译文：但是，当你拥有排他性主张时，突然之间，这些社区就得到了巩固，并具有非常强烈的身份，但你也疏远了其他群体——……然后你就与他们发生了冲突。因此，这就是为什么我不能断定基督教在东帝国历史上是一种团结力量还是分裂力量，因为两者兼而有之。

Lex Fridman 01:43:14

英文原文：And also trying to figure out whether the unifying or the divisive aspects are a feature or a bug.

中文译文：并且还试图弄清楚统一或分裂的方面是一个功能还是一个错误。

Anthony Kaldellis 01:43:21

英文原文：Right.

中文译文：正确的。

Lex Fridman 01:43:21

英文原文：Maybe some of the divisive elements is a way for society internally to try to, much like the civil wars, to try to figure itself out.

中文译文：也许某些分裂因素是社会内部试图解决自身问题的一种方式，就像内战一样。

Anthony Kaldellis 01:43:31

英文原文：Yes.

中文译文：是的。

Lex Fridman 01:43:31

英文原文：So sometimes tension and conflict is a good mechanism for figuring out what do the people want.

中文译文：因此，有时紧张和冲突是了解人们想要什么的良好机制。

Anthony Kaldellis 01:43:36

英文原文：Or what’s the truth, right?

中文译文：或者说真相是什么，对吗？

Lex Fridman 01:43:38

英文原文：Or what’s the truth.

中文译文：或者说真相是什么。

Anthony Kaldellis 01:43:39

英文原文：Yeah. So the story that it likes to tell itself is that there’s this, like, this one original truth, and the hardcore of true believers is defending that truth at every moment against all of these evil heretics who are coming in-

中文译文：是的。所以它喜欢告诉自己的故事是，有这样一个原始真理，真正的信徒的铁杆成员每时每刻都在捍卫这一真理，反对所有这些即将到来的邪恶异端分子——

Anthony Kaldellis 01:43:52

英文原文：… and trying to corrupt it. In reality, what happens is that this truth is something that’s evolving in the course of the controversies. And, like, often they don’t know that they believed that until in retrospect, once they’ve had the fight and the winner has this position, oh, now that turns out to have been the position we always held, right? And this happens again and again and again. You know, a lot of the time, these Christian theologians who get into so much trouble and get branded as heretics and sometimes get sent into exile, they didn’t mean any harm. They often just were stating what they thought everybody believed.

中文译文：……并试图破坏它。事实上，这个事实是在争议过程中不断演变的。而且，就像，他们常常不知道自己相信这一点，直到回想起来，一旦他们进行了战斗并且获胜者占据了这个位置，哦，现在事实证明这就是我们一直持有的位置，对吧？这种情况一而再、再而三地发生。你知道，很多时候，这些基督教神学家陷入如此多的麻烦，被贴上异教徒的标签，有时甚至被流放，他们并没有任何恶意。他们常常只是在陈述他们认为每个人都相信的事情。

Anthony Kaldellis 01:44:31

英文原文：And then when they blurt it out, someone off in Alexandria is like, “What? That’s heresy.” And then now you’re, now you’re in trouble. Now you’re getting into this fight, and you might win, you might lose. But, like, a lot of them were kind of sort of well-intentioned in that way, or they had no intention of starting a fight. But there’s always someone who wants to start a fight.

中文译文：然后当他们脱口而出时，亚历山大的某人会说：“什么？那是异端邪说。”然后现在你就有麻烦了。现在你正在参加这场战斗，你可能会赢，也可能会输。但是，他们中的很多人都是出于好意，或者他们无意发起战斗。但总有人想挑衅。

Lex Fridman 01:44:49

英文原文：Yeah, I mean, sometimes the fights are extremely intense over things that I could see on the surface or, like, iconography. It’s like, it seems like a very subtle- … debate, like almost academic. And then a large number of people don’t see it as academic. They, they do see it like “the devil put ideas in your head that are—” … completely wrong, and it’s, it’s fascinating how that kind of division can emerge. I mean, the impossible question, and I apologize for asking it, but maybe just worthwhile to try to think about it is, on the grand scale of centuries of the East Roman Empire, is religion a constructive or a destructive force for the empire? Did it help it flourish, or did it hold it back?

中文译文：是的，我的意思是，有时候，对于我在表面上看到的东西或者像图像这样的事情，争论非常激烈。这就像，这似乎是一场非常微妙的……辩论，几乎是学术性的。然后很多人并不认为它是学术的。他们确实认为“魔鬼把一些想法灌输到你的头脑里——”……完全错误，而且这种分裂的出现是令人着迷的。我的意思是，这是一个不可能的问题，我为问这个问题而道歉，但也许值得尝试思考的是，在东罗马帝国几个世纪的宏大规模上，宗教对帝国来说是建设性的还是破坏性的力量？它是帮助它蓬勃发展，还是阻碍了它的发展？

Anthony Kaldellis 01:45:41

英文原文：This society identified itself increasingly with what it saw as orthodoxy. Orthodoxy just means correct belief. I mean-

中文译文：这个社会越来越认同它所认为的正统观念。正统只是意味着正确的信仰。我是说-

Anthony Kaldellis 01:45:49

英文原文：… like every religion ultimately thinks it’s orthodox, right? That’s– But that’s the conventional name, right? Orthodoxy today might be called Greek Orthodoxy. And I mean, it’s such an essential part of the culture. It really is. I can’t think of the two of them inde… I mean, I try to because, as a historian, I have to test the models, you know, and try to see these things as independent of each other. But ultimately, it’s very difficult to disentangle them, and I would say that to the degree that this is a successful society historically, that its religion definitely contributed to that and played a role in it. Not without cost, right? It mattered to them. They valued it, but things that matter to you have a cost.

中文译文：……就像每个宗教最终都认为自己是正统的，对吗？那是——但那是传统的名字，对吧？今天的东正教可能被称为希腊东正教。我的意思是，这是文化的重要组成部分。确实如此。我无法独立思考它们两个……我的意思是，我尝试这样做是因为，作为一名历史学家，我必须测试这些模型，你知道，并尝试将这些事物视为彼此独立的。但最终，要解开它们是非常困难的，我想说的是，就历史上这是一个成功的社会而言，它的宗教肯定对此做出了贡献并在其中发挥了作用。不是没有代价的，对吧？这对他们很重要。他们很重视它，但对你来说重要的事情是有代价的。

Anthony Kaldellis 01:46:38

英文原文：And, and they, they paid that price. They were willing to pay that price for it. For example, at the very end, they had to choose between Catholicism, Western rule, where they essentially have to compromise on their faith, or rule by Muslims, the Turks, where they would not have to compromise their faith. And some of them were explicit that they were preferring option B, because the Turks will at least respect our identity. Like, that’s a cost.

中文译文：而且，他们付出了这个代价。他们愿意为此付出这个代价。例如，最后，他们必须在天主教、西方统治（他们本质上必须在信仰上妥协）和穆斯林、土耳其人统治（他们不必在信仰上妥协）之间做出选择。他们中的一些人明确表示他们更喜欢选项 B，因为土耳其人至少会尊重我们的身份。就像，这是一个成本。

Lex Fridman 01:47:09

英文原文：Yeah. But there’s other layers, like taxation and- … the, the, the functions of government- … that are connected to religion to the degree it interacts with the, the tax system. But it feels like that’s the engine of the society and, and religion is more like the cultural layer.

中文译文：是的。但还有其他层面，比如税收和……政府职能……它们与宗教的联系程度取决于它与税收制度的相互作用。但感觉这就是社会的引擎，而宗教更像是文化层。

Anthony Kaldellis 01:47:27

英文原文：Yeah. So this is why I said that I try in thinking of the models that we use to understand the society, not to assume that religion is everywhere and for everything. Now, I have colleagues who do that, and I would disagree with them about this, but you’re exactly right. There are elements of this society that I like to see as their own thing.

中文译文：是的。所以这就是为什么我说我尝试思考我们用来理解社会的模型，而不是假设宗教无处不在、适用于一切。现在，我有同事这样做，我不同意他们的观点，但你是完全正确的。我喜欢将这个社会的某些元素视为自己的东西。

Anthony Kaldellis 01:47:50

英文原文：Like the Roman identity, for example. It’s not the same as Orthodoxy. But also the operations of the state. Those are very pragmatic things, and you see them intersect with religion in, largely in areas of terminology or the vocabulary that they use or, you know, like at the top, but not at their actual functioning. So in my field, I’m a historian who’s tried to promote other aspects of the culture as having a kind of integrity of their own and not to subsume them all within Orthodoxy.

中文译文：例如，就像罗马身份一样。这与东正教不一样。还有国家的运作。这些都是非常务实的事情，你可以看到它们与宗教有交叉，主要是在他们使用的术语或词汇领域，或者你知道，就像在顶部，但不是在它们的实际功能上。因此，在我的领域，我是一名历史学家，他试图促进文化的其他方面具有自己的完整性，而不是将它们全部纳入正统教义之中。

Lex Fridman 01:48:28

英文原文：So, I mean, again, an impossible way of asking the same question. If you asked a Roman, a million Romans across a thousand years, “Are you a Roman or a Christian?” what would be the answer for that?

中文译文：所以，我的意思是，再一次以一种不可能的方式提出同样的问题。如果你问一个罗马人，一千年的一百万罗马人，“你是罗马人还是基督徒？”答案是什么？

Anthony Kaldellis 01:48:45

英文原文：Oh, both. Oh, absolutely.

中文译文：哦，两者都有。哦，绝对是。

Lex Fridman 01:48:47

英文原文：No, you don’t get to say both. You’re not allowed to do that.

中文译文：不，你不能两者都说。你不被允许这样做。

Anthony Kaldellis 01:48:49

英文原文：Why not? It’s the-

中文译文：为什么不呢？这是——

Lex Fridman 01:48:50

英文原文：Well, you’re-

中文译文：好吧，你是——

Anthony Kaldellis 01:48:50

英文原文：It’s the true answer.

中文译文：这是正确的答案。

Lex Fridman 01:48:52

英文原文：Okay. So you’re saying they’re really tied together.

中文译文：好的。所以你是说他们真的联系在一起。

Anthony Kaldellis 01:48:55

英文原文：Well, they overlap. But if you were to… And this might be a somewhat more subtle conversation than most of them would want to have, but if you were to say, “Is Roman and Christian the same thing to you?” If they thought about it for a little while, they’d quickly be able to say no. Because there were, I mean, just logically, there were Christians who were not Romans.

中文译文：嗯，它们重叠了。但如果你……这可能是一场比大多数人想要的更微妙的对话，但如果你说，“对你来说罗马和基督教是一回事吗？”如果他们想一想，他们很快就能拒绝。因为，我的意思是，从逻辑上讲，有些基督徒不是罗马人。

Anthony Kaldellis 01:49:20

英文原文：The Bulgarians or the Rus or, you know, whoever. There were lots of Christians who were not Roman, and they did not regard them as Roman just because they were Christian. Conversely, they knew perfectly well that there had been Romans who were not Christians, and they knew this how? Because in the churches like almost every week, they celebrated martyrs who had been killed by the Roman emperors in the past. And so it was, like, the performance of violence by Roman emperors against Christians was, like, something they remembered. They knew perfectly well. So those two things did not overlap perfectly.

中文译文：保加利亚人或罗斯人，或者你知道的，无论是谁。有很多基督徒不是罗马人，他们并不因为他们是基督徒而将他们视为罗马人。相反，他们非常清楚，罗马人中也有非基督徒，但他们是怎么知道的呢？因为在教堂里，几乎每周都会庆祝过去被罗马皇帝杀害的殉道者。因此，罗马皇帝对基督徒的暴力行为就像他们所记得的那样。他们非常清楚。所以这两件事并不完美重叠。

Anthony Kaldellis 01:49:55

英文原文：And there were some contexts in which you would be more Roman, and there were some contexts in which you would be more Christian. And you find characters who, and I love to do this. I find characters who as some sources say didn’t pay too much attention to Christian things. Like, they were just politicians. They were just doing their work. And then you find characters who, like, devote themselves. They go all in on Orthodoxy and, like, monasticism. They just don’t care about the Roman stuff at all.

中文译文：在某些情况下，你会更加罗马化，而在某些情况下，你会更加基督教化。你会发现我喜欢这样做的人物。正如一些消息来源所说，我发现一些人物并没有过多关注基督教的事物。就像，他们只是政客。他们只是在做他们的工作。然后你会发现那些愿意奉献自己的人物。他们全力支持东正教和修道院制度。他们根本不关心罗马的东西。

[110:00]

Anthony Kaldellis 01:50:25

英文原文：And that is, in fact, part of the reason why I like this society, is because it has these kinds of options for people to choose. And there’s another one. There’s the Greek stuff, too, because their language is Greek, their literature is Greek, and so there are people in the society who go all in on the Greek stuff. Right? And I see this society as this kind of laboratory of these three elements coexisting in these fascinating combinations. Usually it’s combinations, right? But sometimes you’ll find people who are like, kinda try to be purists in one way or another. And it’s the only society in history in which you can do this, ’cause it’s the only society that’s Roman and Christian and Greek. But in different ways, right?

中文译文：事实上，这就是我喜欢这个社会的部分原因，因为它有这些选择供人们选择。还有另外一个。还有希腊的东西，因为他们的语言是希腊的，他们的文学是希腊的，所以社会上有人全力投入希腊的东西。正确的？我将这个社会视为这三种元素以这些迷人的组合共存的实验室。通常都是组合，对吧？但有时你会发现有人试图以某种方式成为纯粹主义者。这是历史上唯一可以做到这一点的社会，因为它是唯一一个罗马、基督教和希腊的社会。但方式不同，对吧？

Lex Fridman 01:51:06

英文原文：Yeah, unfortunately, I think it’s tempting, but it’s probably impossible to say if we remove the taxation system, would the, would the Roman Empire be more or less successful? If we removed religion, would it be more or less successful? If we removed Greek and kept it Latin all the way through, would it be more or less successful? It’s probably impossible to do this kind of analysis ’cause they’re all so deeply integrated.

中文译文：是的，不幸的是，我认为这很诱人，但可能不可能说如果我们取消税收制度，罗马帝国会或多或少成功吗？如果我们消除宗教，它会或多或少成功吗？如果我们去掉希腊语并一直保留拉丁语，它会或多或少成功吗？进行这种分析可能是不可能的，因为它们都如此深度集成。

Anthony Kaldellis 01:51:33

英文原文：And fundamentally, it also wouldn’t be what it was. It would be something different.

中文译文：从根本上说，它也不会是原来的样子。这会是不同的事情。

Lex Fridman 01:51:39

英文原文：But there is a big temptation, and this is at the core of your work, to understand why did the East Roman Empire last as long as it did. And why did the broader Roman Empire last as long as it did? Because it is one of, if not the most successful empires in terms of duration and stability in a very dense part of the world.

中文译文：但有一个很大的诱惑，这就是你工作的核心，去理解为什么东罗马帝国能够持续这么久。为什么更广泛的罗马帝国能够持续这么久？因为就世界人口稠密地区的持续时间和稳定性而言，即使不是最成功的帝国，它也是之一。

Anthony Kaldellis 01:52:02

英文原文：That’s actually like my next project. I’m starting to write a book trying to explain, just kind of from an analytical standpoint, why.

中文译文：这实际上就像我的下一个项目。我开始写一本书，试图从分析的角度解释原因。

Fall of the Western Roman Empire

Lex Fridman 01:52:11

英文原文：How did it last so long? A lot of your work kinda hints at it. It’s here and there. But you’re trying to do more systematic. So, and we’ll keep hinting at it. But to put a bow tie on Constantinople, it went from a very low population of maybe 25,000 people to 500,000 people in just two centuries. So can you explain how that happened?

中文译文：怎么持续了这么久？你的很多工作都暗示了这一点。它无处不在。但你正试图做得更系统化。所以，我们会不断暗示这一点。但要给君士坦丁堡打上领结，它的人口在短短两个世纪内就从大约 25,000 人的极低人口增加到了 500,000 人。那么你能解释一下这是怎么发生的吗？

Anthony Kaldellis 01:52:37

英文原文：Well, it didn’t happen through just demographic growth and reproduction in the city itself. That rate of growth is impossible for an ancient city. So when I say 20,000, 25,000, that’s possibly what the ancient city of Byzantium had-

中文译文：嗯，这不仅仅是通过城市本身的人口增长和再生产来实现的。这样的增长速度对于一座古城来说是不可能的。所以当我说 20,000、25,000 时，这可能就是拜占庭古城所拥有的——

Anthony Kaldellis 01:52:53

英文原文：… when Constantine decided to found Constantinople, and it grew to a city of a half a million in two centuries. That can only have been done in one way, and that is immigration from the provinces. So people must have been moving there in large numbers, which is a movement that we can’t see very clearly in the sources, but we have to infer it and then try to explain it. So also there’s another factor, which is that ancient cities we now know or suspect are what some historians call death traps. In other words, the density of disease is such that ancient cities probably are losing something like 1, 2, possibly 3% of their population per year. So just in order to stay with a stable population, they have to import people.

中文译文：……当君士坦丁决定建立君士坦丁堡时，它在两个世纪内发展成为一座拥有 50 万人口的城市。这只能通过一种方式实现，那就是从各省移民。所以人们一定是大量迁移到那里的，这是一种我们在资料中看不到很清楚的运动，但我们必须推断它，然后尝试解释它。所以还有另一个因素，那就是我们现在知道或怀疑的古代城市就是一些历史学家所说的死亡陷阱。换句话说，疾病的密度如此之大，以至于古代城市每年可能会失去 1%、2%、甚至 3% 的人口。因此，为了保持稳定的人口，他们必须进口人口。

Anthony Kaldellis 01:53:49

英文原文：Right? Now, they’re not like 17th century London. They’re not that bad.

中文译文：正确的？现在，它们不像 17 世纪的伦敦。他们并没有那么糟糕。

Lex Fridman 01:53:53

英文原文：Do diseases and plagues seem to be prevalent?

中文译文：疾病和瘟疫似乎很普遍吗？

Anthony Kaldellis 01:53:56

英文原文：Oh, yeah. Now, you know, Roman cities have some corrections for these sorts of things, like the way they distribute the water through the city. Anyway, they, they weren’t as bad as they could’ve been, but there’s that. So not only to keep the population steady, but to expand it so dramatically means that a lot of people are coming in from the provinces, mostly the Greek-speaking provinces. So, you know, Greece, Asia Minor, and some of the major cities in the East that are Greek-speaking. And I start to wonder, like, well, how did this happen? Like, who are these people, for one thing? And then I did some simple calculations. So I mentioned earlier that we have something like two and a half thousand senators-

中文译文：哦，是的。现在，你知道，罗马城市对这类事情进行了一些修正，比如他们在城市中分配水的方式。无论如何，他们并没有想象的那么糟糕，但就是这样。因此，不仅要保持人口稳定，还要大幅增加人口数量，这意味着大量人口来自各省，其中大部分是希腊语省份。所以，你知道，希腊、小亚细亚和东方的一些主要城市都是说希腊语的。我开始想，就像，这是怎么发生的？一方面，这些人是谁？然后我做了一些简单的计算。所以我之前提到我们有大约二千名参议员——

Anthony Kaldellis 01:54:40

英文原文：… Who are required initially to reside in Constantinople. Well, senators don’t live in bachelor pads. Senators have manors. They have household staff, right? In Rome at the time, there’s a calculation that a senatorial household was something like 100 people, right? Just servants, slaves, dancing girls, cooks, barbers, whatever, right? So let’s assume sort of conservatively that in Constantinople it’s only 30 people, which might be low, right? So if you do the math, you’re starting to get something like, I mean, closer to 100,000 people, right? And that’s just by bringing in senators.

中文译文：……最初需要居住在君士坦丁堡的人。好吧，参议员并不住在单身汉公寓里。参议员有庄园。他们有家政人员，对吗？在当时的罗马，有一个计算，一个元老院家族大概有 100 人吧？只是仆人、奴隶、舞女、厨师、理发师等等，对吧？因此，让我们保守地假设君士坦丁堡只有 30 人，这个数字可能很低，对吧？所以如果你算一下，你就会开始得到类似的结果，我的意思是，接近 100,000 人，对吗？这只是通过引入参议员来实现的。

Anthony Kaldellis 01:55:22

英文原文：Right? They come with people. So I think this was the nucleus of the population. Now then Constantine also makes provision for possibly up to like 200,000 people to receive the, the grain dole, the bread. So that would’ve incentivized even more people to travel there because there are-

中文译文：正确的？他们和人一起来。所以我认为这是人口的核心。现在君士坦丁还为可能多达 20 万人提供了粮食救济金和面包。所以这会激励更多的人去那里旅行，因为有-

Lex Fridman 01:55:46

英文原文：So you get free bread.

中文译文：这样你就可以得到免费的面包。

Anthony Kaldellis 01:55:47

英文原文：Yes. And you can’t live on that alone, but it is, it’s something.

中文译文：是的。你不能仅靠这个生活，但它确实是，它是某种东西。

Lex Fridman 01:55:51

英文原文：Incentive. Is it true that he diverted resources from Rome to Constantinople?

中文译文：激励。他真的将资源从罗马转移到君士坦丁堡吗？

Anthony Kaldellis 01:55:55

英文原文：Absolutely. Oh, yeah. That grain, that’s coming from Egypt. So New Rome is literally stealing food from the mouth of Old Rome. Now, Old Rome doesn’t starve because they, they divert other… Like from North Africa and Sicily, you can feed Rome, right?

中文译文：绝对地。哦，是的。那些谷物，来自埃及。所以新罗马实际上是从旧罗马的嘴里偷食物。现在，老罗马并没有挨饿，因为他们，他们转移了其他人……就像来自北非和西西里岛，你可以养活罗马，对吗？

Lex Fridman 01:56:11

英文原文：But it sends a strong signal to the people living in Old Rome that long term we should probably move.

中文译文：但它向生活在古罗马的人们发出了一个强烈的信号：从长远来看，我们可能应该搬家。

Anthony Kaldellis 01:56:18

英文原文：Some people do move. So we know of some senators who move from Rome. It sends a signal about the priorities of the state, like they’re investing much more in the East. And that the East would be regarded as an equal parallel Roman, you know, world. Yeah.

中文译文：有些人确实会动。我们知道一些参议员是从罗马搬来的。它发出了关于该州优先事项的信号，就像他们在东部进行了更多投资一样。东方将被视为一个平等的平行罗马世界。是的。

Lex Fridman 01:56:33

英文原文：As we talk about diverting resources, slowly the West declines and collapses in 476 AD. So the Visigoths sack Rome in 410 AD, and in 476 AD, the last Western emperor is deposed, marking the end of the Western Roman Empire. High-level question: What is the reason for that decline and the collapse of the Western Roman Empire? So nonstop civil wars, as we’ve talked about, weak emperors. There’s an economic money crisis, so shrinking tax base, rising army costs. There was a loss of key provinces, especially in North Africa. Reliance on contracted barbarian troops as they immigrated more and more into- … The Western Roman Empire. Cascading invasions, migrations amplified by Hun pressure, and then the East-West split. The richer East survives, the West can’t stabilize under- … that split.

中文译文：当我们谈论转移资源时，西方在公元 476 年慢慢衰落和崩溃。于是西哥特人于公元 410 年洗劫了罗马，公元 476 年，最后一位西方皇帝被废黜，标志着西罗马帝国的终结。高层次问题：西罗马帝国衰落和崩溃的原因是什么？正如我们所谈论的，无休无止的内战，软弱的皇帝。存在经济货币危机，税基不断缩小，军队成本不断上升。主要省份的损失，尤其是北非。当野蛮人越来越多地移民到……西罗马帝国时，他们就依赖于他们。一系列的入侵、匈奴压力下的移民扩张，以及东西方的分裂。较富裕的东方得以幸存，而西方则无法在……分裂的情况下保持稳定。

Anthony Kaldellis 01:57:48

英文原文：Yeah. The crux of the matter is that barbarian armies, so armies from outside the empire, put increasing pressure on it during the fifth century. And for whatever reason, when the Roman state failed to sort of suppress one of them and, say, settled them here or allowed them to have here or couldn’t stop them and they took over a province like the Vandals did in North Africa- … this created this kind of vicious cycle because then the Roman state lost access to the resources from those provinces, that is the taxes, and without those resources, they couldn’t, you know, maintain, mobilize, pay for their armies.

中文译文：是的。问题的关键在于，野蛮军队，即来自帝国之外的军队，在五世纪期间对帝国施加了越来越大的压力。无论出于何种原因，当罗马国家未能镇压其中一个人，比如说，将他们定居在这里或允许他们留在这里，或者无法阻止他们，然后他们像汪达尔人在北非那样占领了一个省份……这就造成了这种恶性循环，因为罗马国家失去了从这些省份获得资源的机会，那就是税收，如果没有这些资源，他们就无法，你知道，维持、动员、支付他们的军队费用。

Anthony Kaldellis 01:58:28

英文原文：Then they had fewer armies to handle the next wave of barbarians that came in. The previous barbarians who settled kind of declared their kind of independence. They also could not be put down, and so this created a vicious cycle that just continued in that way. It’s not rocket science, actually. I mean, you can see it playing out. Yeah. Now, who these groups are, where they came from, why did they cross, that, that, those are different questions, right? But from the Roman standpoint, that’s how it was experienced. These are armies that can defeat a Roman field army-

中文译文：然后他们就没有那么多的军队来对付下一波到来的野蛮人。之前定居的野蛮人在某种程度上宣布了他们的独立。他们也无法被放下，所以这就形成了一个恶性循环，就这样持续下去。实际上，这不是火箭科学。我的意思是，你可以看到它正在上演。是的。现在，这些群体是谁，他们来自哪里，他们为什么穿越，那个，那个，这些都是不同的问题，对吧？但从罗马人的角度来看，这就是经历的方式。这些军队可以击败罗马野战军——

Anthony Kaldellis 01:59:03

英文原文：… right, in battle. And sometimes they do. And they then settle and take over territories, and then you lose the revenues, and so you can’t recruit your own armies. And so, anyway, that, that’s the kind of cycle. The East tried to help. Occasionally, they would send forces, but they were also subject to some of the same pressures. ‘Cause remember, the Goths cross the Danube for the first time in a major way in 376. Then you have the Battle of Adrianople a couple years later, where, like, one and a half field armies is just annihilated, and the Emperor Valens dies, and the Goths are just, like, kind of loose in the Balkans. And there was then a long war with them, four years.

中文译文：……对，在战斗中。有时他们会这样做。然后他们定居并占领领土，然后你就失去了收入，所以你无法招募自己的军队。所以，无论如何，这就是这样的循环。东方试图提供帮助。偶尔他们也会出兵，但也同样会受到一些压力。因为请记住，哥特人在 376 年第一次大规模跨越多瑙河。几年后发生了阿德里安堡之战，在那里，一支半野战军被歼灭，瓦伦斯皇帝去世，哥特人在巴尔干地区陷入了松散。然后与他们进行了长达四年的长期战争。

Anthony Kaldellis 01:59:44

英文原文：It results in a kind of truce where neither side wins, and the Romans, for the first time, accept the presence of this quasi-independent Gothic army in the territory of the empire. This is unprecedented, as I said, and it creates a lot of tensions and dysfunctions. Okay, so why does the East survive and the West does not, right?

中文译文：这导致了一种双方都没有获胜的休战，罗马人第一次接受了这支准独立的哥特军队在帝国领土上的存在。正如我所说，这是前所未有的，它造成了很多紧张和功能障碍。好吧，那为什么东方能生存下来，而西方却不能，对吗？

[120:00]

Anthony Kaldellis 02:00:08

英文原文：There’s… And so… Lots of reasons that we can give here, but one of them is the geography that we were talking about earlier. In other words, without a fleet, which they don’t have, the Goths can’t cross over from Thrace or the western Balkans to Asia Minor and go plunder some of the more prosperous provinces. So they’re stuck in the Balkans. They’re gradually pushed kind of in toward the western Balkans, which is, like, the worst part, you know, at the time, like, you wanna be in. And eventually, they just decide, “Well, you know, it’s kinda nicer in Naples.” And so they go to Italy, right? Just because there’s just a lot more resources there for them. And that’s one way that the East just kind of manages to…

中文译文：有……所以……我们可以在这里给出很多原因，但其中之一是我们之前讨论的地理位置。换句话说，如果没有舰队（哥特人没有），哥特人就无法从色雷斯或巴尔干西部穿越到小亚细亚，并掠夺一些更繁荣的省份。所以他们被困在巴尔干地区。他们逐渐被推向西巴尔干地区，那是最糟糕的部分，你知道，当时你想进去。最终，他们决定，“嗯，你知道，那不勒斯更好一些。”所以他们去了意大利，对吗？只是因为他们有更多的资源。这就是东方设法做到的一种方式……

Anthony Kaldellis 02:00:54

英文原文：It doesn’t do this deliberately, but the geography kind of pushes these invaders to the West.

中文译文：它并不是故意这样做的，但地理因素将这些入侵者推向了西方。

Lex Fridman 02:01:00

英文原文：So that’s one. So geography is some of it’s sort of the luck of geography and- … both of the invaders and the geography of the empire. But, you know, the, the East had a lot of invaders since- … and was able to still barely at times- … survive the invaders, so… And some of that could be luck. Some of it could be about the nature of the invaders and the effectiveness of their military, all that kind of stuff.

中文译文：这就是其中之一。所以地理在某种程度上是地理的运气，而且……入侵者和帝国的地理。但是，你知道，东方有很多入侵者，因为……并且有时仍然勉强能——……在入侵者中幸存下来，所以……其中一些可能是运气。其中一些可能是关于入侵者的本质和他们军队的有效性，诸如此类的事情。

Anthony Kaldellis 02:01:30

英文原文：By the way, it worked in the other direction, too. So if you have, like, Persians or Arabs coming into Asia Minor from the East, they usually can’t cross over into your Balkan provinces. So you can fall back on one side or the other side. They… If you fortified Constantinople so that it’s an impregnable bunker, which it was, right? So you, you’re holding your command center in Constantinople. You can alternate between your European or your Asian provinces, depending on where the trouble is. You can call in reinforcements from either side. So the East does have that kind of advantage. This is not the reason why it survives for as long as it does, though it is a reason. You know, also, they acquire flamethrowers at some point, which- … those help, too.

中文译文：顺便说一下，它在另一个方向上也起作用。因此，如果有波斯人或阿拉伯人从东方进入小亚细亚，他们通常无法进入巴尔干省份。所以你可以向后退到一侧或另一侧。他们……如果你加固君士坦丁堡，使其成为坚不可摧的碉堡，确实如此，对吗？所以你，你控制着君士坦丁堡的指挥中心。您可以根据问题所在的位置在欧洲或亚洲省份之间切换。你可以从任何一方呼叫增援。所以东方确实有这样的优势。这并不是它能够长久存在的原因，尽管这是一个原因。你也知道，他们在某个时候会获得火焰喷射器，这——……这些也有帮助。

Anthony Kaldellis 02:02:12

英文原文：Right? Ultimately, I think it’s the decision made by local communities to stick with the Roman state, like, ultimately. Like, they’re not going to actively side with invaders. And when the trouble passes, they restore communities with Constantinople immediately. Like, this is their natural political home. And, and that’s the question that I’m really trying to answer, like, why does that happen?

中文译文：正确的？最终，我认为这是当地社区做出的决定，最终还是坚持罗马国家。就像，他们不会积极地站在入侵者一边。当麻烦过去后，他们立即恢复与君士坦丁堡的社区。就像，这是他们天然的政治家园。这就是我真正想回答的问题，比如，为什么会发生这种情况？

Lex Fridman 02:02:36

英文原文：You know, we should say, just, just like we’ve articulated multiple times, that it, the Roman Empire survives- so it’s not like the Roman Empire collapsed and another Byzantine Empire was born. Really, there is a shift that happens, and part of that shift is because of Constantine, right? It’s not just about where the capital is, but I’m sure that there’s just a general move towards that direction from the West to the East. And, and that in many ways, you know, weak emperors and, and the West, the weak leaders, the structure of government, all these kinds of elements put together- … maybe demographic shifts and declines that have to do with the fact that the center of the empire has moved. And so ultimately-

中文译文：你知道，我们应该说，就像我们多次阐明的那样，罗马帝国幸存了下来——所以这不像罗马帝国崩溃了，另一个拜占庭帝国诞生了。确实，发生了转变，而这种转变的部分原因是康斯坦丁，对吗？这不仅与首都在哪里有关，而且我确信从西方到东方，总体上正在朝着这个方向发展。而且，在很多方面，你知道，软弱的皇帝和西方，软弱的领导人，政府结构，所有这些因素加在一起——……也许人口的变化和下降与帝国中心的转移有关。所以最终——

Lex Fridman 02:03:27

英文原文：… it’s not that the West Roman Empire collapsed, it is that the center of the Roman Empire shifted. And because of that, the historic West collapsed.

中文译文：……并不是西罗马帝国崩溃了，而是罗马帝国的中心发生了转移。正因为如此，历史上的西方崩溃了。

Anthony Kaldellis 02:03:38

英文原文：It’s quite striking. So for example, already by, like in the 430s, Constantinople is basically codifying Roman law for the West. So Roman law in Latin is codified in Constantinople, and then sent to the West as, “Oh, here’s your law code.” And this is in the 430s, so after the alleged division between the two, which like I said, is kind of loose. It’s not hard and fast. In the 6th century, it is the East that reconquers part of the West under Justinian.

中文译文：这非常引人注目。例如，到了 430 年代，君士坦丁堡基本上已经在为西方编纂罗马法了。因此，拉丁文的罗马法在君士坦丁堡被编成法典，然后发送到西方，“哦，这是你的法典。”这是在 430 年代，所以在两者之间所谓的划分之后，就像我说的，有点松散。这并不困难和快速。公元六世纪，东方在查士丁尼的统治下重新征服了部分西方地区。

Anthony Kaldellis 02:04:10

英文原文：And not only that, he also recodifies Roman law on a much bigger scale, and then that law becomes Western law. So in a certain sense, Roman law as we know it comes from Constantinople. It doesn’t come from ancient Rome. I mean, ultimately it comes from ancient Rome, but we don’t have those versions of it. We have the East Roman versions of it. It is East Rome that reconquers Rome. This is a funny inversion, you know, because Constantinople is situated in a province, Thrace, which always was sort of considered backwards, right? In the time of, like, the early Caesars, if you were in Rome and you thought, you know, Thrace, it was like, “Ugh.” It’s like, you know, some sort of, yeah, armpit of the Roman Empire or something, you know?

中文译文：不仅如此，他还更大规模地重新编纂了罗马法，然后该法律就成为了西方法律。所以从某种意义上说，我们所知道的罗马法来自君士坦丁堡。它并非来自古罗马。我的意思是，它最终来自古罗马，但我们没有它的那些版本。我们有它的东罗马版本。是东罗马重新征服了罗马。这是一个有趣的倒置，你知道，因为君士坦丁堡位于色雷斯省，这个省一直被认为是倒退的，对吧？在早期的凯撒时代，如果你在罗马，你会想，你知道，色雷斯，就像是，“呃。”就像，你知道，某种，是的，罗马帝国的腋窝之类的，你知道吗？

Anthony Kaldellis 02:04:54

英文原文：But by Justinian’s time, it’s complete inversion. Like, the capital of the Roman world, the heart of it is there, and Rome is this kind of backwater provincial city in Italy, you know, that you’ve just liberated from the Goths, and it’s kind of in ruins. There are wolves roaming the streets of the Forum. So this is a complete overhaul of the centers of power. It’s turned inside out almost.

中文译文：但到了查士丁尼时代，情况就完全颠倒了。就像罗马世界的首都一样，它的核心就在那里，而罗马是意大利的一种落后省级城市，你知道，你刚刚从哥特人手中解放出来，它已经成了废墟。论坛的街道上有狼在游荡。所以这是对权力中心的彻底改革。几乎翻了个底朝天。

Eunuchs, Taxes, and Power

Lex Fridman 02:05:18

英文原文：And I think it’s fair to say that the reason the East… Part of the reason the East lasted as long as it did is the topic that we’ve mentioned, which is the structure of government. So can we just zoom out once again and explain the key ways the government functioned in the East Roman Empire, and how it evolved over the lifetime of the empire?

中文译文：我认为可以公平地说，东方的原因……东方能够持续这么久的部分原因是我们提到的主题，即政府结构。那么，我们是否可以再次缩小范围，解释政府在东罗马帝国运作的关键方式，以及它在帝国的一生中是如何演变的？

Anthony Kaldellis 02:05:38

英文原文：Very broadly speaking, there’s civilian and military, right? And you might actually add the church. It’s entirely plausible to treat the church as a kind of government institution at this time. But let’s just stick with military and civilian. The military is pretty straightforward, would be recognizable to any student of military history. This is how you recruit, organize, equip, pay, and lead soldiers. And the East Roman state tends to have a larger military, at least paper strength. Active is a different matter. Like, how many soldiers you take on a campaign is a different matter, but how many soldiers you maintain, like, in the provinces generally, right, is a… It tends to be on the large side for a medieval society, right?

中文译文：广义上来说，有民用和军用之分，对吧？你实际上可能会添加教堂。此时将教会视为一种政府机构是完全合理的。但我们还是只关注军事和民用吧。军事非常简单，任何学习军事史的学生都可以认出。这就是你招募、组织、装备、支付和领导士兵的方式。东罗马国家往往拥有更强大的军事实力，至少是纸面实力。主动则是另一回事。比如，你在一场战役中携带多少士兵是另一回事，但你在各省维持多少士兵，对吧，是……对于中世纪社会来说，这往往偏大，对吗？

Anthony Kaldellis 02:06:30

英文原文：So it compares favorably to, say, the Caliphate later on, which is a much more massive territorial entity. So the military is that. It can have anywhere between 100,000 at a minimum, at a low point, up to maybe about 250,000 at a high point, depending on the period. It’s a lot of people. It’s a lot of men. Factor in their families, right? These are also, like, part of the whole, you know, military economic complex, if you will.

中文译文：因此，它与后来的哈里发国相比是有利的，哈里发国是一个更大的领土实体。所以军队就是这样。根据时期的不同，其最低数量可能在 100,000 左右，最高可达 250,000 左右。人很多。有很多男人。考虑到他们的家庭，对吗？如果你愿意的话，这些也是整个军事经济综合体的一部分。

Lex Fridman 02:07:05

英文原文：And they’re career military, so, like, this is their job.

中文译文：他们是职业军人，所以，这就是他们的工作。

Anthony Kaldellis 02:07:08

英文原文：Yes.

中文译文：是的。

Lex Fridman 02:07:09

英文原文：And is the military for most of the history of the East Roman Empire defensive military?

中文译文：而东罗马帝国历史上大部分军队都是防御性军队吗？

Anthony Kaldellis 02:07:16

英文原文：Mostly, but not always.

中文译文：大多数情况下，但并非总是如此。

Lex Fridman 02:07:18

英文原文：And we’ll talk about Justinian.

中文译文：我们将讨论查士丁尼。

Anthony Kaldellis 02:07:21

英文原文：And so then you have the civilian administration. Civilian administration does a number of things. Principally, it is to find the funds to pay for this army, which is the single largest expense on the state budget, right? And so in order to find those funds, it has to have a census of the assets, and it has to be able to tax them, and there are lots of different ways of doing that. So the civilian administration has a number of tax bureaus, record-keeping, this sort of thing, also a legal branch for resolving disputes with the imperial fisc. Okay. But the civilian administration does a number of other things, too.

中文译文：这样就有了民政管理部门。民政管理部门做了很多事情。主要是要找到经费来支付这支军队，这是国家预算中最大的一项开支，对吗？因此，为了找到这些资金，它必须对资产进行普查，并且必须能够对它们征税，并且有很多不同的方法可以做到这一点。所以民政部门有很多税务局、记录保存之类的东西，也是解决与帝国财政纠纷的法律部门。好的。但民政部门还做许多其他事情。

Anthony Kaldellis 02:08:00

英文原文：For example, the whole legal regulation of the empire: the courts, judges, courts of appeal, or also issuing laws, keeping records, all of this. And those are the main bureaus that have to do with the subjects of the empire.

中文译文：例如，帝国的整个法律监管：法院、法官、上诉法院，或者还颁布法律、保存记录，所有这些。这些是与帝国臣民有关的主要部门。

Anthony Kaldellis 02:08:21

英文原文：The emperors obviously maintain bureaus that are for things like diplomacy, right, or running the palace staff because the palace is a huge institution, right? And then there are a number of endowments that, you know, major churches, Hagia Sophia, for example, has hundreds of staff, clergy to, you know, readers to whatever, and so they need to be paid, and so you need endowments. The imperial household, it has expenses, so it needs endowments, right? So there’s a lot of land that’s earmarked for these kinds of expenses, that requires administration. So this multiplies, right? I mean, go on and on and on and on.

中文译文：皇帝显然设有负责外交等事务的机构，对吧，或者管理宫廷工作人员，因为皇宫是一个庞大的机构，对吧？然后还有一些捐赠基金，你知道，主要的教堂，例如圣索菲亚大教堂，有数百名工作人员、神职人员，你知道，还有读者，所以他们需要得到报酬，所以你需要捐赠基金。皇室呢，有开支，就需要禀赋吧？因此，有大量土地被指定用于此类费用，需要管理。所以这会成倍增加，对吗？我的意思是，继续，继续，继续。

Lex Fridman 02:08:58

英文原文：And I’m sure the tax code is not a simple flat tax. It’s- … probably incredibly complicated. So it’s just like in the United States, it feels like the majority of the United States is basically lawyers and the IRS. That’s maybe 98%, I think, is lawyers.

中文译文：我确信税法不是简单的统一税。这——……可能非常复杂。所以就像在美国一样，感觉美国的大部分基本上都是律师和国税局。我认为这可能 98% 是律师。

Anthony Kaldellis 02:09:18

英文原文：Lawyers.

中文译文：律师。

Lex Fridman 02:09:18

英文原文：I’m not sure it’s scientifically-

中文译文：我不确定这是否科学——

Anthony Kaldellis 02:09:20

英文原文：I thought they shrunk the IRS down now to a size that it can’t, like, actually do anything.

中文译文：我认为他们现在将国税局的规模缩小到了它实际上无能为力的程度。

Lex Fridman 02:09:24

英文原文：They shrunk it down-

中文译文：他们把它缩小了——

Anthony Kaldellis 02:09:25

英文原文：I thought it was just-

中文译文：我以为这只是——

Lex Fridman 02:09:26

英文原文：… to just 90% now.

中文译文：……现在只有 90%。

Anthony Kaldellis 02:09:27

英文原文：90, just 90.

中文译文：90，只是 90。

Lex Fridman 02:09:29

英文原文：No. I think there is something—this is another conversation about human nature and about the nature of governments, but there’s something about, like, I think it’s impossible to have an IRS-type organization that doesn’t grow. I think maybe with good intentions because you can’t—you have to, like— … everybody always comes to you, “Well, I don’t… Here’s my special case. I want my tax to be lower.” And they kind of add another line. “All right, if you have— … purple hair, you—”

中文译文：不。我认为有一些东西——这是关于人性和政府本质的另一场对话，但有一些东西，比如，我认为不可能有一个不成长的国税局类型的组织。我想也许是出于好意，因为你不能——你必须，比如——……每个人总是来找你，“好吧，我不……这是我的特殊情况。我希望我的税收更低。”他们还添加了另一条线。 “好吧，如果你有——……紫色头发，你——”

[130:00]

Anthony Kaldellis 02:10:06

英文原文：Right, right.

中文译文：对，对。

Lex Fridman 02:10:06

英文原文：… the tax decrease. And so you keep adding, and then of course, the more you add, the more opaque the thing becomes. Therefore, corruption seeps in or, you know, maybe not like official corruption, but— … corruption light, and then that tax code grows, and then all of a sudden you have these big institutions that then—

中文译文：……税收减少。所以你不断地添加，然后当然，你添加的越多，事情就变得越不透明。因此，腐败渗透进来，或者，你知道，也许不像官方腐败，但是——……腐败轻，然后税法增长，然后突然间你有了这些大型机构，然后——

Anthony Kaldellis 02:10:26

英文原文：Yes

中文译文：是的

Lex Fridman 02:10:26

英文原文：… encourage corruption, and then there’s a bureaucracy, and there’s a momentum, and this is just how humans are.

中文译文：......鼓励腐败，然后就有了官僚主义，就有了动力，这就是人类的样子。

Anthony Kaldellis 02:10:32

英文原文：Yes. So this happens in East Roman society too. I’ll give you some examples. So there’s not a tax code as such, but what you— The way it operates is through basically exemptions. So you petition for an exemption. You might be a monastery, you might be a wealthy— You might be someone well-connected to the court. You might be a struggling provincial village, and you petition the emperor or some official, and you say, “Hey, we know we had a bad season,” or, “The barbarians came through and they took all of our… We can’t pay the taxes. Could we have an exemption?” And emperors often are granting these exemptions for very specific things, like maybe for this year or for that tax or whatever.

中文译文：是的。所以这种情况也发生在东罗马社会。我给你举一些例子。因此，并没有这样的税法，但它的运作方式基本上是通过豁免。所以你申请豁免。你可能是一个寺院，你可能是一个富人，你可能是一个与朝廷关系密切的人。你可能是一个苦苦挣扎的省级村庄，你向皇帝或某个官员请愿，你说，“嘿，我们知道我们度过了一个糟糕的季节”，或者，“野蛮人来了，他们拿走了我们所有的……我们无法缴纳税款。我们可以豁免吗？”皇帝经常会针对非常具体的事情给予这些豁免，比如今年或税收或其他什么。

Anthony Kaldellis 02:11:15

英文原文：The problem is that the emperors are discovering every once in a while that their officials are granting these exemptions sort of on their own. So every once in a while, the emperors have to, like, clear house when they have to, like, cancel all of these exemptions and start the whole process again. But later on, once we start to have documentation, like maybe in the 11th century, we see that every little—well, not every, but we have all these monasteries, these little villages, these high officials, and they all have these documents that give them exemption from this or that or the other thing, and it gets so complicated, and that’s how it works.

中文译文：问题在于，皇帝们时不时地发现他们的官员会自行授予这些豁免。因此，每隔一段时间，皇帝就必须清理内部空间，取消所有这些豁免并重新开始整个过程。但后来，一旦我们开始有了文件，就像在 11 世纪，我们看到每一点——好吧，不是每一个，但是我们有所有这些修道院，这些小村庄，这些高级官员，他们都有这些文件，使他们免受这样或那样或其他事情的影响，事情变得如此复杂，这就是它的运作方式。

Lex Fridman 02:11:49

英文原文：But it is the engine of society that makes the whole thing work, ’cause you have to fund—I mean, there’s infrastructure projects, but you have to also fund the army, and the army’s necessary to defend against all the military incursions.

中文译文：但让整个事情运转起来的是社会的引擎，因为你必须资助——我的意思是，有基础设施项目，但你也必须资助军队，而军队是防御所有军事入侵所必需的。

Anthony Kaldellis 02:12:02

英文原文：Yeah, yeah, yeah.

中文译文：是啊，是啊，是啊。

Lex Fridman 02:12:03

英文原文：A good fraction of the bureaucracy seemed to have been eunuchs, which are castrated men. Can you explain why this was a prominent thing?

中文译文：官僚机构中很大一部分似乎是太监，即被阉割的人。您能解释一下为什么这是一件突出的事情吗？

Anthony Kaldellis 02:12:11

英文原文：The eunuchs are part of the household staff of the emperor. So that would be like—what would it be? The West Wing of the White House or something like this. So they are the people who handle the imperial person, the bedchamber, the organization of palace life—things like banquets, you know, these kinds of things—the wardrobe. And why are they important? So for, for starters, if you’re, like, physically with the emperor all day, right? Like, you’re handling the meetings, you’re… Right? People can come to you and say, “Hey, I need you to put in a good word for whatever,” right? So they can get things done. So you, you bribe them, they get things done. So they’re very useful in this way. They’re also kind of hated for that reason.

中文译文：太监是皇帝的内务人员的一部分。那么那就像是——会是什么？白宫西翼或类似的地方。所以他们是处理皇室人物、寝宫、宫廷生活组织的人——比如宴会，你知道的，这类事情——衣柜。为什么它们很重要？所以，首先，如果你整天和皇帝在一起，对吧？就像，你正在主持会议，你……对吗？人们可以来找你说：“嘿，我需要你为任何事情说几句好话，”对吧？这样他们就能把事情做好。所以你贿赂他们，他们就能把事情做好。所以它们在这方面非常有用。由于这个原因，他们也有点被讨厌。

Anthony Kaldellis 02:12:57

英文原文：Right? But they’re also kind of there to be hated. In other words, they soak up a lot of the frustration that people sometimes feel when they’re not getting, you know, what they want from the court. Okay. That’s one thing. Here’s the other thing that’s more interesting. How do you as an emperor make sure that your bureaucracy doesn’t displace you? Like, if the bureaucracy is handling all the matters of running the empire, what do we need you for? Right? Like, the bureaucracy can develop rules of its own-

中文译文：正确的？但他们也有可能被讨厌。换句话说，当人们没有从法庭得到他们想要的东西时，他们有时会感到很多挫败感，他们会承受很多。好的。这是一回事。这是另一件更有趣的事情。作为皇帝，你如何确保你的官僚机构不会取代你？就像，如果官僚机构正在处理管理帝国的所有事务，我们需要你做什么？正确的？就像，官僚机构可以制定自己的规则——

Anthony Kaldellis 02:13:29

英文原文：… for solving all the problems, for dealing with petitions and exemptions and whatever. Like, they can do it. So where’s your power exactly? So what the emperors did not want is to be displaced or overshadowed by these kinds of more impersonal institutions. And so they would often set up parallel tracks of power. So this could be a bit confusing. So eunuchs were perfect for this reason because often their origin was from outside the empire, or they were former slaves. They weren’t connected to, like, networks of powerful families.

中文译文：......解决所有问题，处理请愿和豁免等等。就像，他们可以做到。那么你的力量到底在哪里呢？因此，皇帝们不希望被这些更加客观的机构所取代或掩盖。因此他们经常会建立平行的权力轨道。所以这可能有点令人困惑。因此，太监是完美的，因为他们往往来自帝国之外，或者他们以前是奴隶。他们与权势家族的网络没有联系。

Anthony Kaldellis 02:14:04

英文原文：So you knew that they would generally be loyal to you because they depended entirely on you, the emperor, for their position and their power. And what you would sometimes do is you’d say, “Okay, I’m putting you in charge of, like, this army.” Literally, like putting you in charge of an army, just so that you can counterbalance the kind of networks of established generals, and you’ll have, like, no, a eunuch from my wardrobe. You know, I’m putting him in charge. And so this kind of shook things up a little bit so that people who were part of a system or a network could never fully count that that could get them all the power that they wanted. They now they have to answer to this eunuch from the wardrobe who’s, like, outside of their system.

中文译文：所以你知道他们通常会忠于你，因为他们的地位和权力完全依赖于你，皇帝。有时你会说：“好吧，我让你负责这支军队。”从字面上看，就像让你负责一支军队，这样你就可以平衡现有将军的网络，然后你就会从我的衣柜里得到一个太监。你知道，我让他负责。因此，这种情况发生了一些变化，以至于属于系统或网络一部分的人们永远无法完全相信这可以让他们获得他们想要的所有权力。他们现在必须对这个衣柜里的太监负责，他就像在他们的系统之外。

Anthony Kaldellis 02:14:45

英文原文：And sometimes these eunuchs were extremely competent, like Narses, Justinian’s general, who defeated the Goths in Italy in this massive battle. Like, this guy was a total hardass. And he was this little old man. He was very old, and he was tiny, and he was a eunuch, and the Goths laughed at him, but he had the last laugh, right?

中文译文：有时这些太监非常能干，比如查士丁尼的将军纳尔西斯，他在意大利的这场大规模战役中击败了哥特人。就像，这家伙是个十足的硬汉。而他就是这个小老头。他年纪很大，个子又小，又是个太监，哥特人都嘲笑他，但他笑到了最后，不是吗？

Lex Fridman 02:15:04

英文原文：Is there some component to them being eunuchs, so they can’t propagate the bloodline?

中文译文：难道他们是太监，就不能传承血脉吗？

Anthony Kaldellis 02:15:09

英文原文：Yeah. They can’t have their own family, so they can’t be, like, looking out for their own offspring. They’re kind of, um, isolated individuals who depend entirely on your favor.

中文译文：是的。他们无法拥有自己的家庭，因此他们无法照顾自己的后代。他们是一种，呃，孤立的个体，完全依赖于你的青睐。

Lex Fridman 02:15:21

英文原文：Is it known whether the castration is almost always by force?

中文译文：是否知道阉割几乎总是通过武力进行？

Anthony Kaldellis 02:15:26

英文原文：There are eunuchs in society generally. They’re often bishops. They’re appointed Patriarch of Constantinople sometimes. They’re- … they’re in all kinds of positions. Many of them are children who are enslaved and castrated against their will. Sometimes, however, they are castrated very much according to the will of their families. In some parts of, like in Caucasia, there were some regions that were famous for producing eunuchs, also in, in Persia and so forth. But also, we are pretty sure that this happened within the empire, because there were some families that, like, really wanted to place a eunuch at the court. So from Paphlagonia, there were a number of… This is in northern Asia Minor. And so they would… It was almost like a family strategy.

中文译文：社会上普遍存在太监。他们通常是主教。他们有时被任命为君士坦丁堡牧首。他们——……他们处于各种职位。他们中的许多人是违背自己意愿被奴役和阉割的儿童。然而，有时他们会根据家人的意愿被阉割。在一些地方，比如高加索，有一些地区以出产太监而闻名，还有波斯等等。而且，我们非常确定这发生在帝国内部，因为有些家族确实想在宫廷中安置一名太监。所以从帕夫拉戈尼亚，有很多……这是在小亚细亚北部。所以他们会……这几乎就像一个家庭策略。

Lex Fridman 02:16:15

英文原文：I mean, it’s fascinating. It’s fascinating that they had so much representation in the inner circles— … of the emperor, and therefore had real influence.

中文译文：我的意思是，这很有趣。令人着迷的是，他们在皇帝的内部圈子里有如此多的代表，因此具有真正的影响力。

Anthony Kaldellis 02:16:28

英文原文：Oh, yeah. But this was the case always, even in Rome, like in the Julio-Claudians under- … you know, the first Caesars. There are all these powerful eunuchs, and the senatorial class always hates them. I mean, it’s just the same dynamic.

中文译文：哦，是的。但情况总是如此，即使在罗马，就像在朱利奥·克劳迪安统治下……你知道，第一个凯撒。都有这些有权有势的太监，元老阶级总是对他们恨之入骨。我的意思是，这只是同样的动态。

Lex Fridman 02:16:42

英文原文：One of the interesting things you’ve said as an aside in one of the many podcasts that I listened with you is you said that there were no isolated people, you know, people that are disconnected- … from the empire maybe who, for example, don’t know about the taxes or just don’t feel integrated into the system. I mean, that’s really interesting to me, that there’s so much connectivity, there’s so much cohesion- … as an entire peoples.

中文译文：在我和你一起听的众多播客之一中，你说过的有趣的事情之一是，你说没有孤立的人，你知道，没有与帝国脱节的人……例如，他们可能不知道税收，或者只是觉得自己没有融入这个体系。我的意思是，这对我来说真的很有趣，作为一个民族，有如此多的联系，有如此多的凝聚力。

Anthony Kaldellis 02:17:12

英文原文：These people do not exist, these isolated peasants. This is a myth that I, one day I’m gonna write a chapter about this because it’s this idea that you occasionally encounter, well, actually quite often in the scholarship, that there are these sort of rural communities out there somewhere that don’t know what’s going on in Constantinople. They might not know, even know who the emperor is. They’re cut off. Maybe a tax official will show up every once in a while, maybe not, and they just live their lives on their own, unaffected by the, say, state, because the medieval state, we suspect, is, you know, always powerless and can’t, you know, affect people’s lives. There’s no proof for these communities at all.

中文译文：这些人并不存在，这些孤立的农民。这是一个神话，有一天我会写一章关于这个问题的文章，因为你偶尔会遇到这样的想法，嗯，实际上在学术界经常遇到，即在某个地方存在着这样的农村社区，他们不知道君士坦丁堡正在发生什么。他们可能不知道，甚至不知道皇帝是谁。他们被切断了。也许税务官员会偶尔出现，也许不会，他们只是过着自己的生活，不受国家的影响，我们怀疑，因为中世纪的国家，你知道，总是无能为力，不能影响人们的生活。这些社区根本没有任何证据。

Anthony Kaldellis 02:17:57

英文原文：At most, you might try to find some, like, actual hermits, like, actual Christian ascetic hermits who try to go out and find this situation, and sometimes they’re described in the text as, like, oh, so-and-so went so far out into the mountains that, like, not even the tax census people showed up there, which, which tells you how they think about what it means to be isolated, right? So this is not a… This is a state in which every arable piece of land has been censused for centuries. It’s not like you can hide a village, right? And the taxation process is not like, what, they visit once a year, give us some coin, and we’ll leave. It’s actually more like three times a year.

中文译文：最多，你可能会尝试找到一些，比如，真正的隐士，比如，真正的基督教禁欲隐士，他们试图出去寻找这种情况，有时他们在文本中被描述为，比如，哦，某某深入山中，甚至连税收普查的人都没有出现在那里，这告诉你他们如何看待孤立意味着什么，对吗？所以这不是……这是一个每块耕地都经过几个世纪的人口普查的国家。你不可能隐藏一个村庄吧？税收过程并不像他们每年来一次，给我们一些硬币，然后我们就离开。实际上更像是一年三次。

Anthony Kaldellis 02:18:41

英文原文：And the taxes are not just coin and maybe a payment in kind or something, but it’s, it’s a whole bunch of things like services and recruits and all… You’re right. And once you start adding all of these things up, it creates a very dense institutional matrix in which all communities are enmeshed.

中文译文：税收不仅仅是硬币，也许是实物支付或其他什么，而是一大堆东西，比如服务和新兵等等……你是对的。一旦你开始将所有这些东西加起来，它就会创建一个非常密集的制度矩阵，所有社区都融入其中。

Anthony Kaldellis 02:19:02

英文原文：They can’t get out of it. Also, they, they have a church, don’t they? And if they have a church, they have the calendar. And of course they have the calendar because… So, like, how do they organize time and space and boundaries and all of these things? No, this is all state institut- How do they pay for anything? They have coins. Coins are everywhere. So I think that these institutions structured the way that everyone, even in village communities, even in the most isolated ones, supposedly, how they thought about things like time and space and value and relations and power and kinship and so forth.

中文译文：他们无法摆脱它。还有,他们,他们有一个教堂,不是吗?如果他们有教堂，他们就有日历。当然，他们有日历是因为……那么，他们如何组织时间、空间、边界以及所有这些东西？不，这都是州立机构——他们如何支付费用？他们有硬币。硬币无处不在。因此，我认为这些机构构建了每个人的方式，即使是在乡村社区，甚至在最孤立的社区中，据说他们如何思考时间、空间、价值、关系、权力和亲属关系等问题。

Lex Fridman 02:19:39

英文原文：So what you’re saying is taxation is the thing that brings the empire together.

中文译文：所以你说的是税收是让帝国团结在一起的东西。

Anthony Kaldellis 02:19:44

英文原文：It is, principally, yes.

中文译文：基本上是的。

Lex Fridman 02:19:46

英文原文：I mean, it’s- … it’s true, right? This is, like, this is how you know.

中文译文：我的意思是，这是——……这是真的，对吧？这就是，这就是你所知道的。

Anthony Kaldellis 02:19:50

英文原文：Yeah. But on top of that is layered things like the economy, coins, right? But also there’s the church.

中文译文：是的。但最重要的是经济、货币等分层的东西，对吗？但还有教堂。

Lex Fridman 02:19:56

英文原文：Yeah, and the church is important, just like you said. And there’s churches throughout the empire.

中文译文：是的，就像你说的，教会很重要。整个帝国都有教堂。

[140:00]

Anthony Kaldellis 02:20:01

英文原文：Yes, and they have sermons, and they pray for the emperor after this service. No, there are no isolated communities.

中文译文：是的，他们有布道，他们在仪式结束后为皇帝祈祷。不，不存在孤立的社区。

Lex Fridman 02:20:09

英文原文：So one of the things I briefly mentioned just would be nice to elaborate on is this term of monarchic republic. So we’ve been throwing around words like kingdom and republic and empire and monarchy. So what is the actual… What’s a good applicable term to what this thing is- … the East Roman Empire?

中文译文：因此，我简要提到的一件事很值得详细说明，那就是君主制共和国这个术语。所以我们一直在使用“王国”、“共和国”、“帝国”和“君主制”等词语。那么，真正的……什么是一个很好的适用术语来形容这个东西——……东罗马帝国？

Anthony Kaldellis 02:20:35

英文原文：That’s an excellent question, and I’m glad you flagged that because we call it conventionally Byzantine Empire, and it’s neither of those things really. We talked about Byzantine. Now, empire’s a bit of a problem because first of all there’s no term in Greek, in the Greek that they use at this period, that corresponds to our notion of empire. It’s not part of the official terms. It’s not even… They didn’t even have a term for it. You could have… There’s some terms that might mean something like state, arche maybe or kratos. But for the most part, it’s either basileia, which we might translate as monarchy, or politeia, which is polity. And politeia in Greek, polity, is a Greek translation of Latin res publica.

中文译文：这是一个很好的问题，我很高兴你提出这个问题，因为我们传统上称其为拜占庭帝国，但实际上这两者都不是。我们谈论了拜占庭。现在，帝国有点问题，因为首先，在希腊语中，在他们这个时期使用的希腊语中，没有一个术语与我们的帝国概念相对应。这不是官方条款的一部分。甚至……他们甚至没有一个术语来形容它。你可以……有些术语可能意味着诸如状态、arche 或 kratos 之类的意思。但在大多数情况下，它要么是 basileia，我们可以将其翻译为君主制，要么是 politeia，即政体。希腊语中的 politeia，即政体，是拉丁语 res publica 的希腊语翻译。

Anthony Kaldellis 02:21:24

英文原文：Res publica doesn’t mean republic the way we mean it for the Romans, like a non-monarchical regime, right? That’s how we mean, like, the American Republic or, you know. That’s a usage that came in later, like during the Enlightenment. In Latin, a res publica is the common affairs, the common interest of a people who are constituted as a political community, regardless of the type of regime that they have. Like even Cicero could imagine the Roman res publica governed by a king or by a senate or by a democracy. And they continue to use that term. We don’t use it according to Roman norms. We use it according to modern norms, the term republic. So they continue to call it a res publica or a polity under the emperors as well, right?

中文译文：Res publica 并不像罗马人所说的那样意味着共和，就像非君主政体，对吗？这就是我们所说的美利坚合众国，或者你知道的。这是后来出现的用法，比如启蒙运动时期。在拉丁语中，res publica 是共同事务，是构成政治共同体的人民的共同利益，无论他们拥有何种政体。就像西塞罗可以想象的那样，罗马的公共机构由国王、元老院或民主国家统治。他们继续使用这个词。我们不按照罗马规范使用它。我们根据现代规范使用它，即共和国一词。所以他们继续称其为“res publica”或“皇帝统治下的政体”，对吧？

Anthony Kaldellis 02:22:09

英文原文：And it was understood that the role of the emperor, whether he’s Caesar or basileus or whatever, whatever language, was to serve the polity. They keep saying this. So the terms that occur in the sources most commonly are basileia of the Romans, polity of the Romans, or Romania, which is the proper name of this state. Not empire.

中文译文：人们都知道，皇帝的角色，无论他是凯撒还是巴西勒斯，无论是什么语言，都是为政体服务。他们一直这么说。因此，最常出现在资料来源中的术语是“罗马人的巴西利亚”、“罗马人的政体”或“罗马尼亚”，这是这个国家的专有名称。不是帝国。

Anthony Kaldellis 02:22:33

英文原文：Now, empire. Empire in modern English commonly, an empire is a state that’s created when one group conquers a bunch of others and rules them. It could be an ethnic group. It could be an ethnoreligious group. It could be a political group, whatever. But there’s an act of conquest, and results in a state where one group is ruling over others. That’s not how Romania is actually constituted. We’ve talked about this. It’s, for the most part, all Roman citizens ruling themselves—like Roman subjects ruling themselves through their own government. So it’s not an empire strictly speaking. Now, occasionally, they will conquer other people, right? We talked about the warfare. Sometimes it’s not just defensive. Sometimes it’s offensive, right?

中文译文：现在，帝国。在现代英语中，帝国通常是指一个群体征服并统治其他群体时建立的国家。它可能是一个种族群体。它可能是一个民族宗教团体。不管怎样，它可能是一个政治团体。但这是一种征服行为，并导致一个群体统治其他群体的状态。罗马尼亚实际上并不是这样构成的。我们已经讨论过这个了。在很大程度上，所有罗马公民都在自我统治——就像罗马臣民通过自己的政府来统治自己一样。所以严格来说它并不是一个帝国。现在，偶尔他们也会征服别人吧？我们谈论了战争。有时，这不仅仅是防御性的。有时这很令人反感，对吗？

Anthony Kaldellis 02:23:17

英文原文：In that case, you do establish an imperial relationship. Like we, the Romans, are ruling over this other group. Could be Slavs, it could be Bulgarians for a while, it could be whatever. Or even some Muslims in northern Syria for a while in the 11th century who—and you are not Romans. And that’s an imperial relationship. The question is, how many of these imperial relationships do you need to decide that, well, we’ve reached a tipping point, and now we’re just gonna call the whole thing an empire? Personally, I don’t think we ever reach that point. I mean, all states, even today, have like minorities. Some of them are part of that state because they were conquered once upon a time. But we don’t call those states empires necessarily. Even though…

中文译文：在这种情况下，你们确实建立了帝国关系。就像我们罗马人统治着另一个群体一样。可能是斯拉夫人，也可能是保加利亚人，也可能是其他任何人。或者甚至是 11 世纪叙利亚北部一段时间内的一些穆斯林——而你们也不是罗马人。这就是帝国关系。问题是，你需要多少这样的帝国关系才能决定，好吧，我们已经达到了一个临界点，现在我们只是将整个事情称为帝国？就我个人而言，我认为我们永远不会达到这一点。我的意思是，即使在今天，所有州都有类似的少数族裔。他们中的一些人是该州的一部分，因为他们曾经被征服过。但我们不一定称这些国家为帝国。虽然…

Anthony Kaldellis 02:24:05

英文原文：Like, look at the United Kingdom. Well, Wales was conquered. And, you know, the Welsh have their own identity, their own language. I don’t know that you would call that now an imperial relationship. Maybe. I don’t know.

中文译文：比如，看看英国。好吧，威尔士被征服了。而且，你知道，威尔士人有自己的身份、自己的语言。我不知道你现在会称其为帝国关系。或许。我不知道。

Lex Fridman 02:24:22

英文原文：I think there’s also a synonymous use of the word empire that refers to the power that the state has- … in the global context geopolitically. So sometimes empire is used synonymously with superpower, meaning it’s one of the primary- … nations in the world, and it doesn’t necessarily have to do with the imperial nature of its history.

中文译文：我认为帝国这个词还有一个同义用法，指的是国家拥有的权力……在全球地缘政治背景下。因此，有时帝国被用作超级大国的同义词，这意味着它是世界上主要的……国家之一，这并不一定与其历史的帝国性质有关。

Anthony Kaldellis 02:24:47

英文原文：That’s true.

中文译文：这是真的。

Lex Fridman 02:24:47

英文原文：Hence the sort of American empire, US empire.

中文译文：因此，美利坚帝国，美帝国。

Anthony Kaldellis 02:24:50

英文原文：Yes. Though you would never characterize the American political regime as an imperial one insofar as it does not have an emperor, for example. But anyway, yes. The problem is that in my field, we use the term empire conventionally, even when what you just described is clearly not happening, like even toward the end. It’s not a major world power. It, like, has a few islands in the Peloponnese, but we call it empire and the emperor, and it’s like, it’s completely ridiculous. There’s not even a term in their language for that sort of thing. Anyway, we can call things whatever we want, just so we understand what the reality is- … and what we are using those terms to mean. I think that’s the important thing. Yeah.

中文译文：是的。例如，尽管你永远不会将美国政体描述为帝国政体，因为它没有皇帝。但无论如何，是的。问题是，在我的领域，我们通常使用“帝国”这个词，即使你刚才描述的情况显然没有发生，甚至到了最后。它不是世界主要强国。它在伯罗奔尼撒半岛有几个岛屿，但我们称其为帝国和皇帝，这完全是荒谬的。他们的语言中甚至没有一个术语来形容这类事情。不管怎样，我们可以随心所欲地称呼事物，这样我们就可以理解现实是什么——……以及我们使用这些术语的含义。我认为这是最重要的。是的。

Lex Fridman 02:25:35

英文原文：So then let’s look at words which are both fascinating, monarchic republic.

中文译文：那么让我们来看看两个令人着迷的词：君主制共和国。

Anthony Kaldellis 02:25:41

英文原文：Right.

中文译文：正确的。

Lex Fridman 02:25:42

英文原文：Why is that a good term for the East Roman Empire?

中文译文：为什么这个词对于东罗马帝国来说是一个好词呢？

Anthony Kaldellis 02:25:46

英文原文：Because they understood it very much to be a polity in the Roman sense of a res publica that was governed by a regime that was monarchical.

中文译文：因为他们非常理解这是罗马意义上的公共政体，由君主政体统治。

Lex Fridman 02:25:55

英文原文：So those two elements, there’s an emperor dude at the top, and it functioned politically like a republic.

中文译文：所以这两个元素，顶部有一个皇帝，它在政治上像共和国一样运作。

Anthony Kaldellis 02:26:04

英文原文：Also, the emperor was expected to be working for the republic. Like, they keep saying this. So, like, this was their conception. You don’t find it, for example, in other kinds of dynastic empires, the ones that don’t emerge from within the context of an ancient republic. So this is another reason why I find this civilization so fascinating, right? I mean, we mentioned the Greek and the Roman and the Christian elements that are kind of jostling together. This is fascinating to me in part because it’s this weird combination of monarchical power, like in terms of executive institutions- … and a republican kind of baseline ideology on which it operates. Yeah, and they, they sometimes come to a head.

中文译文：此外，皇帝还应该为共和国工作。就像，他们一直这么说。所以，这就是他们的构想。例如，在其他类型的王朝帝国中，你找不到它，那些帝国不是在古代共和国的背景下出现的。这就是我觉得这个文明如此迷人的另一个原因，对吗？我的意思是，我们提到了希腊、罗马和基督教元素，这些元素是相互碰撞的。这对我来说很有趣，部分原因是它是君主权力的奇怪组合，就像行政机构一样……以及它所赖以运作的共和主义基线意识形态。是的，他们有时会达到紧要关头。

Lex Fridman 02:26:50

英文原文：Is there at all a degree to which it’s a military dictatorship? Because especially when it’s the general in the emperor’s seat, yes, there’s a republic, yes, there’s political discussion, but the army has a lot of power. So to what degree is it a military dictatorship, as is sometimes talked about when you talk about the Roman Empire?

中文译文：到底有没有达到军事独裁的程度？因为尤其是当将军坐在皇帝的位子上时，是的，有共和国，是的，有政治讨论，但军队拥有很大的权力。那么，正如人们在谈论罗马帝国时有时会提到的那样，它在多大程度上是军事独裁呢？

Anthony Kaldellis 02:27:12

英文原文：Yeah, so Augustus’ position, for example, and that of his successors is talked about as a military dictatorship. In other words, when push comes to shove- … and the basis of political power is the army, then I suppose it’s legitimate for historians to talk about a military dictatorship. But here’s why I don’t think the Eastern Roman Empire is a military dictatorship. Even though, again, the emperors control the armies and the armies themselves will often have a say in who becomes emperor, like through the civil wars that we mentioned. Okay. The reason why I don’t think it’s a military dictatorship is because they almost never, very, very, very rarely use the army as an instrument of social control.

中文译文：是的，例如奥古斯都的立场和他的继任者的立场被称为军事独裁。换句话说，当事情到了紧要关头……而政治权力的基础是军队时，那么我认为历史学家谈论军事独裁是合法的。但这就是为什么我不认为东罗马帝国是一个军事独裁国家。尽管皇帝控制着军队，而军队本身通常对谁成为皇帝有发言权，就像我们提到的内战一样。好的。我之所以不认为这是军事独裁，是因为他们几乎从不、非常、非常、很少使用军队作为社会控制的工具。

Lex Fridman 02:28:03

英文原文：Isn’t that strange to you? Because you see that being done through so much of human history.

中文译文：这对你来说不奇怪吗？因为你在人类历史的大部分时间里都看到了这一点。

Anthony Kaldellis 02:28:09

英文原文：Yeah.

中文译文：是的。

Lex Fridman 02:28:10

英文原文：And the fact they don’t resort to that, I mean, they, for 1,000 years, that’s just not a thing.

中文译文：事实上，我的意思是，他们一千年以来都没有采取这种做法，这根本就不是一件事。

Anthony Kaldellis 02:28:18

英文原文：As a way of keeping down the population, you just don’t see it. And part of the reason for that is I don’t think the population needs to be kept down. Like, this gets back to the consensus that we were talking about. The understanding is that the army is there to protect the Roman people. And is often recruited among them. And for most of the period that I study, lives among them. So when the emperors have to call up the army, they’re literally calling up soldiers from local villages.

中文译文：作为抑制人口增长的一种方式，你只是看不到而已。部分原因是我认为不需要限制人口数量。就像，这又回到了我们正在谈论的共识。人们的理解是，军队的存在是为了保护罗马人民。并且经常被招募到其中。在我学习的大部分时间里，我都生活在他们中间。因此，当皇帝必须征召军队时，他们实际上是从当地村庄征召士兵。

Lex Fridman 02:28:47

英文原文：It’s just incredible that this worked. I guess the civil war thing is, as a mechanism, is effective. ‘Cause you just, throughout human history, I mean, you look at even recent history, it’s just a very common thing for an authoritarian figure to use the army to suppress people.

中文译文：令人难以置信的是，这竟然有效。我认为内战作为一种机制是有效的。因为纵观人类历史，我的意思是，即使看看最近的历史，独裁者利用军队镇压人民也是很常见的事情。

Anthony Kaldellis 02:29:05

英文原文：Yeah, but isn’t that dangerous, though? Look at how many modern regimes tried to use their own armies against their people who are in a moment of rising up.

中文译文：是的，但这不是很危险吗？看看有多少现代政权试图使用自己的军队来对抗正处于崛起时刻的人民。

Lex Fridman 02:29:14

英文原文：It doesn’t last.

中文译文：它不会持久。

Anthony Kaldellis 02:29:15

英文原文：Well, it’s a risk. Like the Arab Spring. Especially in Egypt. And you could, you could tell for those three weeks that Mubarak was trying to decide whether he could actually count on the army to suppress the protesters or not, because you never know what they’re going to do if you ask them to fire on a civilian population. It can backfire on you badly. So I think that is a very dangerous force to use, and even in the context of modern regimes, can result in a regime change.

中文译文：嗯，这是一个风险。就像阿拉伯之春一样。尤其是在埃及。你可以，你可以看出，在那三个星期里，穆巴拉克试图决定他是否真的可以指望军队镇压抗议者，因为你永远不知道如果你要求他们向平民开枪，他们会做什么。它可能会给你带来严重的适得其反的效果。所以我认为这是一种非常危险的力量，即使在现代政权的背景下，也可能导致政权更迭。

Lex Fridman 02:29:53

英文原文：Absolutely, and there’s huge wisdom behind that, but, you know, leaders are not always wise, often not wise. And often maybe they start out wise, but power corrupts them over time, and so the fact that this does not happen just over and over and over and over- … in the East Roman Empire is, is, there’s just signal there that’s fascinating. And I mean, this goes to the book that you want to be working on— … About why the thing lasts. So…

中文译文：当然，这背后蕴藏着巨大的智慧，但是，你知道，领导者并不总是明智的，而且常常不明智。通常，他们一开始可能是明智的，但随着时间的推移，权力会腐蚀他们，所以事实上，这种情况不会一次又一次地发生……在东罗马帝国，是的，那里只是有令人着迷的信号。我的意思是，这涉及到你想要写的书——……关于为什么事情会持续下去。所以…

[150:00]

Anthony Kaldellis 02:30:19

英文原文：There’s one emperor who does do that, and that’s Justinian.

中文译文：有一位皇帝确实做到了这一点，那就是查士丁尼。

Emperor Justinian and wars of conquest

Lex Fridman 02:30:22

英文原文：Mm-hmm. Yeah, he gets wild. So let’s talk about Justinian. We have to. We have to talk about Justinian. One of the most impactful Roman emperors in history started as a peasant, and rose in power to become emperor. He fought wars of conquest and was very consequential and impactful. So who was he?

中文译文：嗯嗯。是的，他变得狂野。那么我们来谈谈查士丁尼。我们必须。我们必须谈谈查士丁尼。历史上最有影响力的罗马皇帝之一从农民起家，后来掌权成为皇帝。他进行了征服战争，影响深远。那么他是谁？

Anthony Kaldellis 02:30:44

英文原文：All right. So Justinian was the emperor from 527 to 565, so quite a long reign. He was the nephew of the previous emperor, Justin I, who was an older man, ruled for just under a decade before Justinian. And both of them came from small, poor agricultural communities in the western Balkans.

中文译文：好的。查士丁尼在位时间是 527 年到 565 年，在位时间相当长。他是前任皇帝查士丁一世的侄子，查士丁一世年纪较大，在查士丁尼之前统治了不到十年。他们都来自巴尔干西部的小型贫困农业社区。

Lex Fridman 02:31:06

英文原文：We should say that Justin I ended up in your worst 10 emperors list.

中文译文：我们应该说，贾斯汀一世最终进入了你最差的十位皇帝名单。

Anthony Kaldellis 02:31:11

英文原文：Yeah, for one decision. He’s not the worst of the worst, but he made a very, very bad call when it came to church policy, tore the church apart. He shouldn’t have done that, in my view. But by the way, Justinian’s an immensely complicated figure. I found it impossible to decide, first of all, whether to put him on the best emperors or the worst emperors.

中文译文：是的，为了一个决定。他不是最坏的人中的最坏的人，但他在教会政策方面做出了非常非常糟糕的决定，导致教会分裂。在我看来，他不应该这样做。但顺便说一句，查士丁尼是一个极其复杂的人物。首先，我发现无法决定把他放在最好的皇帝还是最差的皇帝身上。

Lex Fridman 02:31:30

英文原文：Yeah, you—I mean, you’re being spicy, yeah.

中文译文：是的，你——我的意思是，你很辣，是的。

Anthony Kaldellis 02:31:31

英文原文：Yeah, yeah. You have to be provocative about these things. And I thought omitting those two would be that, and it was. So, and here we are talking about it.

中文译文：是啊是啊。你必须对这些事情具有挑衅性。我认为省略这两个就是这样，而且确实如此。所以，我们在这里讨论它。

Lex Fridman 02:31:39

英文原文：Yeah, yeah, exactly. The controversy.

中文译文：是的，是的，完全正确。争议。

Anthony Kaldellis 02:31:42

英文原文：And through all the systems of social mobility that we’ve been talking about, Justin ended up emperor. Because of his military background, he just rose through the ranks. He was in the right place at the right time, became emperor, and then he gradually positioned his nephew, Justinian, whose background we do not know. Literally, we do not know anything that Justinian did before the age of something like 38 when he appears on the historical record. Same background. We know where he came from, but we don’t know what he was doing, although, like, was he an active soldier for decades? We don’t know. Probably not. He comes equipped with, like, a knowledge of something like Roman law and some Christian theology. That seems to be, like, what he knew.

中文译文：通过我们一直在谈论的所有社会流动体系，贾斯汀最终成为了皇帝。由于他的军事背景，他只是晋升。他在正确的时间出现在正确的地点，成为了皇帝，然后他逐渐定位了他的侄子查士丁尼，他的背景我们不知道。从字面上看，查士丁尼在 38 岁出现在历史记录中之前做过什么，我们一无所知。相同的背景。我们知道他来自哪里，但我们不知道他在做什么，尽管他是几十年来的现役军人吗？我们不知道。可能不会。他具备罗马法和一些基督教神学等知识。这似乎就是他所知道的。

Anthony Kaldellis 02:32:26

英文原文：And then Justin positions him to become his successor eventually, kind of reluctantly, but he does. Justinian also marries Theodora, who’s a woman who’s a former sex worker, which is a controversial choice. By this point, he’s a senator and is holding all of these top generalships, and then he becomes emperor.

中文译文：然后贾斯汀最终将他定位为他的继任者，有点不情愿，但他做到了。查士丁尼还娶了西奥多拉，她是一名前性工作者，这是一个有争议的选择。至此，他已经成为参议员并拥有所有这些高级将领，然后他成为皇帝。

Lex Fridman 02:32:47

英文原文：She was also very influential, yes?

中文译文：她也很有影响力，是吗？

Anthony Kaldellis 02:32:50

英文原文：Very powerful, yes.

中文译文：非常强大，是的。

Lex Fridman 02:32:51

英文原文：Very powerful.

中文译文：非常强大。

Anthony Kaldellis 02:32:51

英文原文：Under his, yeah, during his reign. So the interesting thing about Justinian’s choice of, let’s say, associates, and that includes his wife, is that he seems to have just gone for people he thought were talented- … or that would be good for him as a ruler, rather than their social class or prestige. And so he accumulates around him quite a motley group of odd, sometimes like these kinds of disreputable people. But they did what he wanted them to, and they were—they—with lasting consequences for world history. So he has an eye for talent, and he doesn’t hesitate to pick people that others might look down on if he thought they could get the job done.

中文译文：在他的统治下，是的，在他的统治期间。因此，查士丁尼选择伙伴（包括他的妻子）的有趣之处在于，他似乎只是选择了他认为有才华的人……或者这对他作为统治者有利，而不是他们的社会阶层或声望。所以他的周围聚集了一群形形色色的奇怪的人，有时甚至是这类声名狼藉的人。但他们做了他希望他们做的事，而且他们——他们——对世界历史产生了持久的影响。所以他对人才有慧眼，如果他认为其他人可能会看不起的人能完成工作，他会毫不犹豫地挑选他们。

Anthony Kaldellis 02:33:39

英文原文：And these are some of the attributes that enable him to be as successful as he was. So that’s his background. He’s a Latin speaker primarily, but he knows Greek, too.

中文译文：这些是使他能够取得如此成功的一些特质。这就是他的背景。他主要讲拉丁语，但他也懂希腊语。

Lex Fridman 02:33:51

英文原文：So here he is, and he, but he had, so like I mentioned, the wars of conquests. He also overhauled the Roman law.

中文译文：所以他在这里，他，但正如我提到的，他经历了征服战争。他还彻底修改了罗马法。

Anthony Kaldellis 02:33:58

英文原文：He appoints a committee- … as one does— … to just take the whole of Roman law and condense it into what today we call the Corpus Juris Civilis, which is the body of Roman civil law. And this was a massive work of codification, and it is our main source for Roman law. Like overwhelmingly, what we call Roman law is what Justinian’s committee, and specifically this character called Tribonian, who was a very accomplished jurist, said it was.

中文译文：他任命了一个委员会——……就像一个委员会——……将整个罗马法浓缩成我们今天所说的《民法大全》，它是罗马民法的主体。这是一项庞大的法典编纂工作，也是我们罗马法的主要来源。绝大多数情况下，我们所说的罗马法就是查士丁尼委员会，特别是特里波尼安这个非常有成就的法学家所说的。

Lex Fridman 02:34:31

英文原文：Mm-hmm. And that, did that persist through time? Did that last?

中文译文：嗯嗯。那，这种情况持续了吗？那最后了吗？

Anthony Kaldellis 02:34:34

英文原文：Yes, still to this day. When you study Roman law, you’re studying Tribonian’s committee.

中文译文：是的，直到今天仍然如此。当你研究罗马法时，你正在研究特里波尼安委员会。

Lex Fridman 02:34:40

英文原文：And so in terms of our modern society, how much of impact did that have, this codification, this stable law that ran the East Roman Empire?

中文译文：那么，就我们的现代社会而言，这种编纂、管理东罗马帝国的稳定法律有多大影响？

Anthony Kaldellis 02:34:51

英文原文：Well, I mean, Roman legal concepts pervade everything from philosophy to political thought to actual Roman legal practice. I mean, depends on what country you’re in. So in many of the countries of Europe, it is the, you know, current law. And it is to some degree. I mean, I’m exaggerating. But legal scholars have to study Roman law. Even law students have to do that. Not so much in countries like the United States or Britain, which have the so-called common law system. But ideas in Roman law about, for example, property, right, ownership, things like this, these were hugely important in formulating ideas, for example, about sovereignty in political thought. Yeah, it’s one of the most important and influential acts of committee work ever done in Constantinople.

中文译文：嗯，我的意思是，罗马法律概念遍及从哲学到政治思想再到实际罗马法律实践的一切。我的意思是，这取决于你所在的国家。因此，在欧洲许多国家，这是现行法律。从某种程度上来说确实如此。我的意思是，我有点夸张了。但法律学者必须研究罗马法。即使是法学院的学生也必须这样做。在美国或英国等拥有所谓普通法体系的国家，情况就不那么严重了。但是罗马法中关于财产、权利、所有权等的观念对于形成诸如政治思想中的主权等观念非常重要。是的，这是君士坦丁堡有史以来最重要、最有影响力的委员会工作行为之一。

Lex Fridman 02:35:41

英文原文：So going to Perplexity here and looking at some aspects of the Justinian’s laws, they include a systematic structure of private law, persons, things, actions, strong protection of property and contracts, detailed family and inheritance rules, and a hierarchical status-based view of persons. These elements became the template for later civil law systems. And some overall structures, tripartite schema, law organized around personae, legal subjects, things, and procedural actions. Essentially who, what, and how of- … private law. And it goes on. I mean, a lot of the things I’m reading here really sounds like what we think of as law. Marriage.

中文译文：因此，回到这里的困惑，看看查士丁尼法律的某些方面，它们包括私法、人、物、行为的系统结构，对财产和合同的强有力的保护，详细的家庭和继承规则，以及基于等级地位的人观。这些要素成为后来民法体系的模板。还有一些总体结构、三方模式、围绕人物、法律主体、事物和程序行为组织的法律。本质上是谁、什么以及如何……私法。它还在继续。我的意思是，我在这里读到的很多东西听起来确实像我们所认为的法律。婚姻。

Anthony Kaldellis 02:36:31

英文原文：Look, most of it’s about property.

中文译文：看，大部分都是关于财产的。

Lex Fridman 02:36:35

英文原文：Marriage is a legal status. Lawful matrimony required conformity to rules about age, citizenship, and cognatum or prohibited degrees, incest rules, adoption relations, et cetera. All that kind of stuff.

中文译文：婚姻是一种法律地位。合法婚姻需要遵守有关年龄、公民身份、同名或禁止学位、乱伦规则、收养关系等的规则。所有这些东西。

Anthony Kaldellis 02:36:49

英文原文：Oh, yes. Who you can marry, who not.

中文译文：哦是的。可以嫁给谁，不可以嫁给谁。

Lex Fridman 02:36:52

英文原文：What was their view of homosexuality?

中文译文：他们对同性恋的看法是什么？

Anthony Kaldellis 02:36:54

英文原文：Well, I mean, Justinian thought it caused earthquakes.

中文译文：嗯，我的意思是，查士丁尼认为它引起了地震。

Lex Fridman 02:36:58

英文原文：Oh, did it?

中文译文：哦，是吗？

Anthony Kaldellis 02:36:58

英文原文：Yes.

中文译文：是的。

Lex Fridman 02:36:59

英文原文：Did it?

中文译文：做到了吗？

Anthony Kaldellis 02:37:00

英文原文：Yes.

中文译文：是的。

Lex Fridman 02:37:00

英文原文：Wow. That’s fascinating.

中文译文：哇。这很有趣。

Anthony Kaldellis 02:37:01

英文原文：No, for him, no, for… So for Christian emperors or Christian authorities, this is a reprehensible, immoral act. Depending, it could be punished. Justinian did try to punish it pretty brutally. I mean, ultimately lethally. However, this gets really tricky here because what counts as a homosexual act is not clear to everybody, right? And in addition to which, there… This is a society that generally will not go after let’s say scandals or deviance or however you wanna call it, like systematically. This is not like some– There’s no inquisition.

中文译文：不，对他来说，不，对……所以对于基督教皇帝或基督教当局来说，这是一种应受谴责的、不道德的行为。根据情况，可能会受到惩罚。查士丁尼确实试图相当残酷地惩罚它。我的意思是，最终是致命的。然而，这在这里变得非常棘手，因为并不是每个人都清楚什么才算是同性恋行为，对吧？除此之外，还有……这个社会通常不会系统地追捕丑闻或越轨行为，或者无论你怎么称呼它。这不像有些——没有调查。

Anthony Kaldellis 02:37:56

英文原文：There’s no social police. If there’s some sort of scandal and this comes out, then it’s a problem. But they’re not actively going to track down, hunt down, monitor, survey, interrogate people about their sex lives. I mean, it is in a way, despite having views that we may not agree with about sexuality, it was generally humane in the way of just kind of leaving people alone.

中文译文：没有社会警察。如果有某种丑闻被曝光，那就是一个问题。但他们不会主动去追踪、追捕、监控、调查、询问人们的性生活。我的意思是，在某种程度上，尽管我们可能不同意关于性的观点，但它通常是人道的，只是让人们独自一人。

Lex Fridman 02:38:28

英文原文：I mean, that said, there’s some… I’m just on Perplexity, looked up Justinian Roman law view of sexuality. They’re pretty harsh on, like, adultery and just getting freaky with it.

中文译文：我的意思是，也就是说，有一些……我只是在困惑中，查阅了查士丁尼罗马法对性的看法。他们对通奸等行为非常严厉，而且对此感到抓狂。

Anthony Kaldellis 02:38:43

英文原文：No, Justinian was more zealous in this matter, definitely.

中文译文：不，查士丁尼在这件事上绝对更热心。

Lex Fridman 02:38:48

英文原文：Even though he married a sex worker.

中文译文：尽管他娶了一名性工作者。

Anthony Kaldellis 02:38:53

英文原文：Well, sex work wasn’t illegal.

中文译文：嗯，性工作并不违法。

Lex Fridman 02:38:56

英文原文：Right, but it’s a bit spicy.

中文译文：不错，不过有点辣。

Anthony Kaldellis 02:38:58

英文原文：Yes. And in fact, it was illegal for a senator to marry someone from such a disreputable profession. And he got his uncle to pass a law changing that rule … so that he could.

中文译文：是的。事实上，参议员与来自如此声名狼藉的职业的人结婚是违法的。他让他的叔叔通过了一项法律，改变了这一规则……这样他就可以了。

Lex Fridman 02:39:11

英文原文：Well. Love knows no bounds.

中文译文：出色地。爱无国界。

Anthony Kaldellis 02:39:14

英文原文：Actually, Justinian kind of says that in one of his laws.

中文译文：事实上，查士丁尼在他的一项法律中就说过这样的话。

Lex Fridman 02:39:17

英文原文：Oh, wow.

中文译文：哦，哇。

Anthony Kaldellis 02:39:18

英文原文：No, he clearly loved her. There’s no question.

中文译文：不，他分明是爱她的。毫无疑问。

Lex Fridman 02:39:20

英文原文：This is actual love. I mean, this, you have to like this guy. Starts as a peasant, surrounded himself by all kinds of weirdos just because they were good at what they did, and it doesn’t really matter, class or not.

中文译文：这才是真正的爱情。我的意思是，这个，你必须喜欢这个人。从一个农民开始，周围都是各种各样的怪人，只是因为他们擅长他们所做的事情，这并不重要，无论阶级与否。

Anthony Kaldellis 02:39:31

英文原文：Yes, but there’s a lot to be said against him, too. I like so much.

中文译文：是的，但也有很多反对他的地方。我非常喜欢。

Lex Fridman 02:39:37

英文原文：Let’s get into it. So he did launch wars of conquest. What was his view of war and conquest, and maybe what are the things we should mention in terms of expansionary wars?

中文译文：让我们开始吧。所以他确实发动了征服战争。他对战争和征服的看法是什么？也许在扩张战争方面我们应该提到哪些事情？

Anthony Kaldellis 02:39:50

英文原文：He thought he was authorized by God to reconquer the lost provinces of the Western Roman Empire, and when he did so, that was proof that God favored him. And he was generally opportunistic about it and for the most part, kind of successful in that he intervened in the most critical moments of the histories of these barbarian, you know, kingdoms in the West, and exploited their weaknesses and took them over. Now, in the process, many of these provinces were ravaged by war—Italy for decades. He overstretched his resources, leaving his successors with a much more dangerous situation to defend. And he disbanded certain armies that were meant to protect Constantinople, sent them to Italy, for example. This weakened the home front.

中文译文：他认为上帝授权他重新征服西罗马帝国失去的省份，当他这样做时，那就证明上帝眷顾他。他在这方面总体上是机会主义的，而且在很大程度上，他是成功的，因为他干预了这些西方野蛮王国历史上最关键的时刻，并利用了他们的弱点并接管了他们。现在，在这个过程中，这些省份中的许多省份都遭受了战争的蹂躏——意大利长达数十年。他过度扩张了自己的资源，让他的继任者面临着更加危险的处境。例如，他解散了某些旨在保护君士坦丁堡的军队，并将它们派往意大利。这削弱了后方。

[160:00]

Anthony Kaldellis 02:40:41

英文原文：So he left a very difficult legacy for his successors in that way. Plus, some of the provinces that he conquered were so—like Italy, I don’t think it could even pay for itself after a certain point. So I’m not sure that some of those decisions were the best ones. North Africa, yeah, probably that paid off. Italy and southern Spain, not so sure.

中文译文：所以他就这样给他的继任者留下了非常艰难的遗产。另外，他征服的一些省份非常像意大利，我认为在某一点之后它甚至无法收回成本。所以我不确定其中一些决定是否是最好的。北非，是的，这可能得到了回报。意大利和西班牙南部，不太确定。

Lex Fridman 02:41:02

英文原文：So that’s one of the big criticisms is even though there was conquest, it was overextended, and- … those lands were not economically stable.

中文译文：因此，最大的批评之一是，即使有征服，但它也过度扩张，而且……这些土地经济不稳定。

Anthony Kaldellis 02:41:13

英文原文：Yeah, and-

中文译文：是的，还有-

Lex Fridman 02:41:14

英文原文：Broke. AKA.

中文译文：坏了。又名。

Anthony Kaldellis 02:41:15

英文原文：Conquest is not just good, you know, in itself. I mean, this is… I know that some rulers in history are called the Great simply because they conquered something. But that’s, no, that’s not enough. I mean, I know that rulers do this, but if we’re to compare them to each other, we should at least expect that they have a plan or that it works out well in the end, let’s say, and I don’t think that many of these did.

中文译文：你知道，征服本身不仅仅是好事。我的意思是，这是……我知道历史上的一些统治者被称为伟大只是因为他们征服了一些东西。但那是，不，这还不够。我的意思是，我知道统治者会这样做，但如果我们将他们相互比较，我们至少应该期望他们有一个计划，或者最终会取得很好的效果，比如说，我认为他们中的很多人都没有这样做。

Lex Fridman 02:41:40

英文原文：I should say that as far as historians go, I think you don’t give too many points on the conquest front.

中文译文：我应该说，就历史学家而言，我认为你在征服方面没有给出太多观点。

Anthony Kaldellis 02:41:49

英文原文：Personally, I?

中文译文：就我个人而言，我?

Lex Fridman 02:41:50

英文原文：Yeah, yeah.

中文译文：是啊是啊。

Anthony Kaldellis 02:41:50

英文原文：No, I don’t.

中文译文：不，我不。

Lex Fridman 02:41:51

英文原文：Yeah, so your value comes from is a leader implementing lasting change, like a stable-

中文译文：是的，所以你的价值来自于一个实施持久变革的领导者，就像一个稳定的——

Anthony Kaldellis 02:42:00

英文原文：Was he good for his subjects? Were they living better because of him than otherwise?

中文译文：他对他的臣民有好处吗？他们因为他而生活得比其他人更好吗？

Lex Fridman 02:42:05

英文原文：And also, like, longer, like, the long-term nature of it, not just- … not just, like, a temporary thing.

中文译文：而且，就像，更长，就像，它的长期性质，而不仅仅是……不仅仅是，就像，暂时的事情。

Anthony Kaldellis 02:42:13

英文原文：Right. Are you strengthening institutions that benefit your subjects? That. And some he did, some not. So look, in order to send those armies west to make the conquests, he stripped the east of armies, so the Persians could just march in and, like, destroyed Antioch. Like, that’s a major strategic failure, and I don’t think you get a pass for conquering North Africa by surrendering Syria.

中文译文：正确的。您是否正在加强有利于您的臣民的机构？那。有些他做到了，有些则没有。所以看，为了派遣这些军队向西进行征服，他剥夺了东部的军队，这样波斯人就可以进军并摧毁安提阿。就像，这是一个重大的战略失败，我不认为你可以通过投降叙利亚来获得征服北非的通行证。

Lex Fridman 02:42:39

英文原文：He did rebuild Constantinople and reconstructed the Hagia Sophia.

中文译文：他确实重建了君士坦丁堡并重建了圣索菲亚大教堂。

Anthony Kaldellis 02:42:44

英文原文：Yes, after he and his soldiers set fire to it. Yes. In the Nika insurrection. So this is when the people of the capital rise up against him, and there’s, like, about 10 days of street fighting, and he brings in some armies, and eventually he orders his armies to slaughter the protesters, leaving more than 30,000 dead. Like, this is an enormous number. And a lot of Constantinople burned in the process, and yeah, he rebuilt it. So his building is considered one of his great points. He built Hagia Sophia, for example, which is a magnificent church, like, hands down. It’s just a fascinating monument to study, too. And yeah, that was, that was him, too.

中文译文：是的，在他和他的士兵放火烧了它之后。是的。在尼卡起义中。所以就在这个时候，首都的人民起来反对他，巷战持续了大约 10 天，他调来了一些军队，最终他命令军队屠杀抗议者，造成 3 万多人死亡。就像，这是一个巨大的数字。君士坦丁堡的很多地方都在这个过程中被烧毁，是的，他重建了它。所以他的建筑被认为是他的一大亮点。例如，他建造了圣索菲亚大教堂，这是一座宏伟的教堂，毫无疑问。它也是一座令人着迷的研究纪念碑。是的，那就是，那也是他。

Anthony Kaldellis 02:43:26

英文原文：I’m trying to give you a sense here that the good and the bad are mixed in such equal measure that, like Buridan’s ass, I can’t decide which- … which bale of hay to put him on.

中文译文：我试图在这里让你感觉到，好的和坏的都混合在一起，就像布里丹的屁股一样，我无法决定把他放在哪……哪一捆干草上。

Lex Fridman 02:43:35

英文原文：But there’s a grand scale to the good and the bad.

中文译文：但好与坏都有很大的范围。

Anthony Kaldellis 02:43:37

英文原文：Yes, yes.

中文译文：是的，是的。

Lex Fridman 02:43:38

英文原文：For many people, that’s what makes for a, uh-

中文译文：对于很多人来说，这就是导致，呃-

Anthony Kaldellis 02:43:41

英文原文：Exactly

中文译文：确切地

Lex Fridman 02:43:42

英文原文：… top 10 emperor list. What about the plague?

中文译文：……十大皇帝名单。瘟疫呢？

Anthony Kaldellis 02:43:46

英文原文：Well, he wasn’t responsible for that at least.

中文译文：好吧，至少他对此不负有责任。

Lex Fridman 02:43:50

英文原文：The plague of Justinian- … AKA 541 AD. So some historians claim that it killed half the population and ruined the empire. You are skeptical on this view.

中文译文：查士丁尼瘟疫——…又称公元 541 年。因此一些历史学家声称它杀死了一半的人口并毁掉了帝国。您对这个观点持怀疑态度。

Anthony Kaldellis 02:44:02

英文原文：Yes. So this is a bubonic plague. Which lasts more or less for two centuries. It comes and it goes, and it’s kind of endemic to large parts of the world. 541 is when it starts to break out in the empire, in Constantinople and other cities, and it spreads. There’s been a lot of debate about this recently because now we’ve actually isolated the pathogen. It’s Yersinia pestis. Like, we know this. Just as of, like, a generation ago, this was just guesswork. But now there’s all of this new, like, laboratory science work that’s come in to fill in some of the gaps in history.

中文译文：是的。所以这是一场黑死病。这或多或少持续了两个世纪。它来了又去，是世界大部分地区的通病。 541 年，它开始在帝国、君士坦丁堡和其他城市爆发，并蔓延开来。最近对此有很多争论，因为现在我们实际上已经分离出了病原体。这是鼠疫耶尔森氏菌。就像，我们知道这一点。就像一代人之前，这只是猜测。但现在所有这些新的实验室科学工作的出现填补了历史上的一些空白。

Lex Fridman 02:44:40

英文原文：That’s so cool.

中文译文：太酷了。

Anthony Kaldellis 02:44:40

英文原文：It is. It is. There are lots of discussions about that. And so the study of diseases and virology have just become much more important lately. It still doesn’t tell you, however, like mortality rates and historical impact. Like, for that, you still need standard old-fashioned non-laboratory historical work. And there’s a debate about the impact of this plague. It’s ongoing, I should say that. And some scholars argue for a kind of maximalist position of 50%. I think that would have brought this society to a halt. Just logistically speaking. And so I believe in a much more moderate impact.

中文译文：这是。这是。关于这一点有很多讨论。因此，疾病和病毒学的研究最近变得更加重要。然而，它仍然没有告诉你死亡率和历史影响等信息。就像，为此，你仍然需要标准的老式非实验室历史工作。关于这场瘟疫的影响存在争议。我应该这么说，它正在进行中。一些学者主张采取 50% 的最高主义立场。我认为这会让这个社会陷入停滞。只是从逻辑上来说。所以我相信影响会更加温和。

Lex Fridman 02:45:22

英文原文：And the real impact is what? The tax base shrinks?

中文译文：而真正的影响是什么？税基缩小？

Anthony Kaldellis 02:45:25

英文原文：Oh. Oh, yeah. The tax base would shrink instantly. You wouldn’t be able to recruit armies. You know, there would be massive social dislocation. Like what happens in the Black Death in Europe in the 14th century. Like, we have very good records for what happened to those societies, and basically everything that they were doing stopped for a few years until they sort of tried to put things back together again. This does not happen in the 6th century. In fact, Justinian is at that time waging war on something like four or five different fronts. If you read the narratives of those wars, there’s no pause. There’s no impact from the plague on the conduct of those wars. They just continue on.

中文译文：哦。哦，是的。税基将立即缩小。你将无法招募军队。你知道，将会出现大规模的社会混乱。就像 14 世纪欧洲发生的黑死病一样。就像，我们对这些社会所发生的事情有非常好的记录，基本上他们所做的一切都停止了几年，直到他们试图将事情重新组合起来。这在六世纪不会发生。事实上，查士丁尼当时正在四五个不同的战线上发动战争。如果你读过那些战争的叙述，你会发现其中没有停顿。瘟疫对这些战争的进行没有影响。他们只是继续前进。

Anthony Kaldellis 02:46:09

英文原文：Taxation continues. The courts continue. Like, you just don’t see it in the narrative, and so I think that there’s a much less impact than, certainly than 50%, yeah.

中文译文：征税仍在继续。法庭继续审理。就像，你只是在叙述中看不到它，所以我认为影响肯定比 50% 小得多，是的。

Lex Fridman 02:46:19

英文原文：So this sets the stage for a tumultuous 7th century.

中文译文：这为动荡的七世纪奠定了基础。

Anthony Kaldellis 02:46:25

英文原文：Yeah, you could call it that. Yes.

中文译文：是的，你可以这样称呼它。是的。

Lex Fridman 02:46:27

英文原文：So what is the legacy of Justinian in terms of how he left the empire leading into the 7th century?

中文译文：那么查士丁尼如何离开帝国进入七世纪，他的遗产是什么？

Anthony Kaldellis 02:46:38

英文原文：Well, he left it overextended, so his successors had to deal with many more problems along many more fronts with fewer military forces concentrated in what we might call the homeland of the Eastern Roman Empire. And so that made the center vulnerable too, and so you start to get raids into the Balkans and, you know, it enters a kind of vicious cycle again. Now, not all of this was Justinian’s fault. I mean, the plague definitely had some impact. But I wouldn’t blame everything on his successors, as is sometimes done, like they mishandled the situation. He… Yeah, he left them a very difficult situation to deal with.

中文译文：好吧，他让它过度扩张，所以他的继任者不得不在更多的战线上处理更多的问题，用更少的军事力量集中在我们所谓的东罗马帝国的祖国。这使得中心也变得脆弱，所以你开始对巴尔干地区进行袭击，你知道，它再次进入一种恶性循环。现在，这一切并非都是查士丁尼的错。我的意思是，瘟疫确实产生了一些影响。但我不会像有时那样将一切归咎于他的继任者，就像他们处理不当一样。他……是的，他给他们留下了一个非常难以应对的局面。

The Arab conquests

Lex Fridman 02:47:27

英文原文：So speaking of which, let’s talk about Heraclius. He didn’t make, he didn’t make your list either, which is a shocker for a lot of people. Perhaps you can describe the nuance of that, but he took over the Roman Empire on the verge of extinction. Persians at the gates, treasury empty. So maybe first tell the full saga of the Roman-Persian War that threatened the empire’s existence.

中文译文：说到这里，我们来谈谈希拉克略。他没有进入，他也没有进入你的名单，这对很多人来说是令人震惊的。也许你可以描述其中的细微差别，但他接管了濒临灭绝的罗马帝国。波斯人守在门口，国库空空如也。因此，也许首先要讲述威胁帝国生存的罗马-波斯战争的完整传奇。

Anthony Kaldellis 02:47:53

英文原文：Sure. Well, he wasn’t entirely, you know, free of blame for the situation that he inherited. He was, he was in part responsible for it. So he doesn’t get a pass on that. So Heraclius is basically a rebel and a usurper. So for various reasons Rome and Persia are at war starting around 602. And the Persian shah at this time, Khosrow II, has basically decided on a policy of conquest, not just raiding. Like, I’m gonna go in and take your people, some cattle, and some statues, and take them to, you know, Mesopotamia. He starts what… I mean, I think there’s some evolution in his thinking and his planning about this, but pretty soon during the 600 and the aughts, he realizes that there’s potential for actual permanent territorial gain here, and his armies start moving in.

中文译文：当然。嗯，你知道，他也不能完全摆脱他所继承的处境的责备。他是，他对此负有部分责任。所以他没有得到通过。所以希拉克略基本上是一个叛逆者和篡位者。因此，出于各种原因，罗马和波斯从 602 年左右开始交战。而此时的波斯国王科斯罗二世基本上已经决定了征服政策，而不仅仅是掠夺。就像，我要进去带你的人民、一些牛和一些雕像，然后把它们带到，你知道的，美索不达米亚。他开始……我的意思是，我认为他的想法和计划发生了一些变化，但很快在 600 年和之后的时间里，他意识到这里有可能获得真正的永久领土，他的军队开始进驻。

Anthony Kaldellis 02:48:50

英文原文：And the Roman Emperor is this guy called Phocas, who is himself a usurper, a military background, and he now faces a rebellion by Heraclius, whose base is in North Africa at this time, like around Carthage. And they have a civil war for three years, 608 to 610.

中文译文：而罗马皇帝就是这个叫福卡斯的家伙，他本身就是一个篡位者，有军事出身，现在他面临着希拉克略的叛乱，希拉克略此时的基地在北非，就像迦太基周围一样。他们之间的内战持续了三年，从 608 年到 610 年。

Anthony Kaldellis 02:49:10

英文原文：That civil war that Heraclius initiates causes a diversion of Roman armies to the civil war away from the Persian front. So it’s a massive gift to the Persians. Plus, a lot of the fighting takes place in Egypt, and Egypt was a province that had up until that point not really been harmed by war. Now it is, right? So Heraclius’s forces, he’s not in Egypt, but his backers are fighting a civil war in Egypt, so that province is now, you know, ravaged in part. The Persians make tremendous gains in the east. Heraclius heads straight for Constantinople during all of this, and to make a long story short, he manages to take Constantinople, execute Phocas, and become emperor, right? But now he’s facing a problem that’s much worse than it was before he started the rebellion.

中文译文：希拉克略发起的内战导致罗马军队从波斯前线转向内战。所以这对波斯人来说是一份巨大的礼物。另外，很多战斗都发生在埃及，而埃及是一个直到那时才真正受到战争伤害的省份。现在是了，对吧？所以希拉克略的军队不在埃及，但他的支持者正在埃及打内战，所以你知道，这个省份现在已经部分遭到破坏。波斯人在东方取得了巨大的进展。在这一切过程中，希拉克略直奔君士坦丁堡，长话短说，他成功占领了君士坦丁堡，处决了福卡斯，并成为了皇帝，对吗？但现在他面临的问题比他开始叛乱之前要严重得多。

[170:00]

Anthony Kaldellis 02:50:03

英文原文：The reason why Heraclius is sort of lionized in some… Well, actually, there’s a very long tradition of doing this, which goes back to the Middle Ages. In the Western Middle Ages, Heraclius was sometimes considered, like, the first crusader.

中文译文：希拉克略在某些人中受到崇拜的原因是……嗯，实际上，这样做有很长的传统，可以追溯到中世纪。在西方中世纪，希拉克略有时被认为是第一个十字军战士。

Lex Fridman 02:50:16

英文原文：Oh, interesting.

中文译文：哦，有趣。

Anthony Kaldellis 02:50:17

英文原文：Yeah, yeah. So there’s all this medieval literature about Heraclius as being a proto-crusader type and all that for reconquering, like, Jerusalem from the Persians and restoring the True Cross and all that. So he had this kind of aura, and I think his modern admirers are basically just continuing… I mean, they might not know it, but they’re kind of continuing this very, very long tradition of treating Heraclius as this heroic holy warrior. Anyway, from my standpoint, it’s a complete wash. In other words, yes, he does beat the Persians and he gets, like, in my view, full credit for that, though he did it with, I think, the help of some Turkish allies from Central Asia. These were, I think, the major component of his success at the very end.

中文译文：是啊是啊。因此，所有这些中世纪文献都将希拉克略描述为原始十字军类型，以及从波斯人手中重新征服耶路撒冷并恢复真正的十字架等等。所以他有这种光环，我认为他的现代崇拜者基本上只是在继续……我的意思是，他们可能不知道这一点，但他们有点延续这种非常非常悠久的传统，将希拉克略视为这位英雄的圣战士。无论如何，从我的角度来看，这是一次彻底的清洗。换句话说，是的，他确实击败了波斯人，在我看来，他为此得到了充分的赞扬，尽管我认为他是在一些来自中亚的土耳其盟友的帮助下做到的。我认为，这些是他最终取得成功的主要因素。

Anthony Kaldellis 02:51:09

英文原文：But no, no. So he held the Persians off and ultimately defeated them, yes. And then he loses everything to the Arabs.

中文译文：但不，不。所以他击退了波斯人并最终击败了他们，是的。然后他就输给了阿拉伯人，失去了一切。

Lex Fridman 02:51:16

英文原文：So the Arab conquests are 630s and 640s, but the Persian War is 602 to 628.

中文译文：所以阿拉伯征服是 630 年代和 640 年代，而波斯战争是 602 年到 628 年。

Anthony Kaldellis 02:51:23

英文原文：Yes.

中文译文：是的。

Lex Fridman 02:51:24

英文原文：So what can be said about this what seems to be a pretty costly war, I guess, for the Persians?

中文译文：那么，对于波斯人来说，这似乎是一场代价高昂的战争，我们能说些什么呢？

Anthony Kaldellis 02:51:32

英文原文：So the war was costly initially only for the Romans. The eastern provinces were conquered by Persia. That means Syria, Palestine, Egypt. So that’s a loss. You lose all that revenue, and then they start raiding into Asia Minor.

中文译文：因此，这场战争最初只对罗马人造成了高昂的代价。东部省份被波斯征服。这意味着叙利亚、巴勒斯坦、埃及。所以这是一种损失。你失去了所有的收入，然后他们开始袭击小亚细亚。

Lex Fridman 02:51:48

英文原文：Yes.

中文译文：是的。

Anthony Kaldellis 02:51:49

英文原文：By the way, this is exactly what the Arabs would do, you know, just a couple decades later. They would conquer Syria, Palestine, Egypt, and they would start raiding into Asia Minor. So almost like this phase of East Roman history begins already during the Persian invasion. It’s just a kind of a prelude. It was, in fact, the Arabs that would do that for the next few centuries. So Heraclius, it takes him a very long time to get organized, in fact, something like 15 years, and it’s not entirely clear, like, what he’s doing all this time. But he ultimately manages to defeat the Persians by waging these really spectacular, weird campaigns in the East. He decides to strike into the Persian heartland, as it were. Well, first in the Caucasus region, and then he goes into Mesopotamia.

中文译文：顺便说一句，这正是几十年后阿拉伯人会做的事情。他们将征服叙利亚、巴勒斯坦、埃及，并开始袭击小亚细亚。因此，几乎就像东罗马历史的这一阶段在波斯入侵期间就开始了一样。这只是一种前奏。事实上，在接下来的几个世纪里，阿拉伯人一直在这样做。所以希拉克略花了很长时间才组织起来，事实上，大约 15 年，而且并不完全清楚，比如，他这段时间在做什么。但他最终通过在东方发动这些非常壮观、怪异的战役，成功击败了波斯人。他决定进攻波斯腹地。嗯，首先是在高加索地区，然后他进入美索不达米亚。

Anthony Kaldellis 02:52:42

英文原文：So not to try to defeat their armies that are rampaging around Asia Minor or even besieging his capital in 626. The Persians and the Avars, this people from… This nomadic warrior group that settled in roughly modern Hungary, they’re besieging Constantinople. Heraclius doesn’t even go. And he’s just kind of preparing his armies in the East, and he strikes the Persians right where it hurts, and this now begins to degrade the Persian heartland and their infrastructure because remember, both of these empires are gonna be in shambles by the time the Arabs come along, and this is what enables the Arabs to conquer them so quickly. I mean, they’ve destroyed each other in these wars.

中文译文：因此，不要试图击败他们在小亚细亚周围横冲直撞的军队，甚至在 626 年围攻他的首都。波斯人和阿瓦尔人，这些来自……这个大约定居在现代匈牙利的游牧战士群体，他们正在围攻君士坦丁堡。希拉克略甚至没有去。他只是在东方准备他的军队，他打击了波斯人的痛处，这现在开始削弱波斯的中心地带和他们的基础设施，因为记住，当阿拉伯人到来时，这两个帝国都将陷入混乱，这就是阿拉伯人能够如此迅速地征服他们的原因。我的意思是，他们在这些战争中互相摧毁了。

Anthony Kaldellis 02:53:22

英文原文：And eventually Heraclius calls in his Turkish allies, and they go on a field trip through Mesopotamia, and this causes a coup in Persia, and Khosrow is killed.

中文译文：最终希拉克略召集了他的土耳其盟友，他们前往美索不达米亚进行实地考察，这导致了波斯政变，科斯罗被杀。

Lex Fridman 02:53:34

英文原文：Is there something to be said, a little bit of texture to the motivations of the different empires and the different groups involved? So the East Roman Empire, the Persian Empire, and the Islamic Caliphates, were they after conquering? Were they after expansion? Were they after more like raiding for financial benefits? What was the motivation?

中文译文：对于不同帝国和不同团体的动机有什么要说的吗？那么东罗马帝国、波斯帝国、伊斯兰哈里发，他们是征服之后的吗？他们是在扩张之后吗？他们更多的是为了掠夺经济利益吗？动机是什么？

Anthony Kaldellis 02:53:56

英文原文：So in the past, the Persian Shahs basically were interested in raiding, and they also had an interest in manpower. So all of those Mesopotamian agricultural estates won’t till themselves. So they were kind of insatiable for agricultural workforces and specialized craftsmen and people like that. So they would go into the empire and get them. But in this phase, it seems that Khosrow II is taking really to heart the idea that the Persian Empire should really extend to the Mediterranean as it did in, like, Achaemenid times, right, in, in ancient history, the empire that Alexander conquered.

中文译文：所以在过去，波斯国王基本上都是对掠夺感兴趣，而且对人力也有兴趣。因此，所有这些美索不达米亚农业庄园都不会自行耕种。所以他们对农业劳动力、专业工匠和类似的人有点贪得无厌。所以他们会进入帝国并得到他们。但在这个阶段，霍斯罗二世似乎真正牢记了这样一个想法：波斯帝国应该真正扩展到地中海，就像在阿契美尼德时代那样，在古代历史上，亚历山大征服的帝国中。

Anthony Kaldellis 02:54:31

英文原文：So it seems that the, the Sassanians, this is this dynasty, this Iranian dynasty that’s ruling the Persian Empire, of course, they were aware of the Achaemenids, but sometimes they would have these claims to reviving the former greatness of the Iranian Empire. So, you know, bathing in the Mediterranean Sea is something that many Near Eastern monarchs, you know, they, they did this as a sign of, of success. Anyway, for the Romans, it was sheer survival, just desperate survival, ’cause they knew that this was a war that could end the Roman state.

中文译文：所以看起来，萨珊人，这就是这个王朝，这个统治波斯帝国的伊朗王朝，当然，他们知道阿契美尼德王朝，但有时他们会声称要复兴伊朗帝国以前的伟大。所以，你知道，在地中海沐浴是许多近东君主的事情，你知道，他们这样做是成功的标志。无论如何，对于罗马人来说，这纯粹是生存，只是绝望的生存，因为他们知道这是一场可能结束罗马国家的战争。

Lex Fridman 02:55:06

英文原文：I mean, they’re already on the verge of being ended. And here, they’re defensive wars of survival.

中文译文：我的意思是，他们已经处于结束的边缘。在这里，他们是生存的防御战。

Anthony Kaldellis 02:55:15

英文原文：Yeah. So it’s pretty clear that initially the, the goal of Arab Muslim warfare is to unify Arabia. That is, that all Arabs should be Muslim and should be unified into this religious kind of state, whatever, that the prophet and his successors had created. Now, then they start striking out into Rome and into Iran. It’s not entirely clear, like, why. Now, there are obvious reasons. Like, I mean, we don’t– It’s not, like, a huge historical mystery why a, you know, recently formed successful army will decide to take on two very weak opponents– … who are on their doorstep. Like– … this is not, you know, complicated.

中文译文：是的。因此很明显，阿拉伯穆斯林战争的最初目标是统一阿拉伯。也就是说，所有阿拉伯人都应该是穆斯林，并且应该统一到先知和他的继承者所创建的这种宗教国家中。现在，他们开始进攻罗马和伊朗。目前还不完全清楚，比如为什么。现在，有明显的原因。就像，我的意思是，我们不——这不是一个巨大的历史谜团，为什么一支最近组建的成功的军队会决定对抗两个非常弱的对手——……他们就在他们家门口。就像——……你知道，这并不复杂。

Lex Fridman 02:56:04

英文原文：Yeah, they’re pretty effective at military– … conquest.

中文译文：是的，他们在军事上——……征服方面非常有效。

Anthony Kaldellis 02:56:08

英文原文：Yeah. But they’re striking both empires from a direction that those empires had never prepared to defend from. Arabia was just not, “Oh, you might get some occasional raiders, but you’re never gonna get an army that’s coming out that can potentially conquer you.” So the defensive orientations are all wrong. And these two empires have gone through this massive war that has destabilized them. They’re low on manpower, low on resources. The outcome is almost kind of inevitable. I don’t think there’s a great mystery.

中文译文：是的。但他们从两个帝国从未准备防御的方向攻击这两个帝国。阿拉伯半岛并不是，“哦，你可能偶尔会遇到一些袭击者，但你永远不会有一支军队出来，有可能征服你。”所以防守方向都是错误的。这两个帝国经历了这场导致他们不稳定的大规模战争。他们人力不足，资源匮乏。结果几乎是不可避免的。我不认为这有什么大秘密。

Lex Fridman 02:56:40

英文原文：And the effect of that is they stripped away the richest provinces of the Roman Empire.

中文译文：其结果是他们剥夺了罗马帝国最富裕的省份。

Anthony Kaldellis 02:56:47

英文原文：Yes, Egypt in particular. That means now you can’t feed Constantinople. Like we talked about the grain from Egypt, right, that came to Constantinople. You don’t have that now. And so that means that the population of Constantinople will decline dramatically over the next few decades.

中文译文：是的，特别是埃及。这意味着现在你无法养活君士坦丁堡。就像我们谈论从埃及运到君士坦丁堡的谷物一样。你现在没有了。因此，这意味着君士坦丁堡的人口将在未来几十年内急剧下降。

Lex Fridman 02:57:03

英文原文：So how does the empire rebuild itself, you know, restabilize? Because it’s not, it doesn’t collapse there, right?

中文译文：那么帝国如何自我重建、恢复稳定呢？因为它不是，所以它不会在那里崩溃，对吗？

Anthony Kaldellis 02:57:11

英文原文：Yes.

中文译文：是的。

Lex Fridman 02:57:12

英文原文：It stays, it survives. There’s interesting low points for the empire where it still survives.

中文译文：它留下来，它生存下来。这个帝国仍然存在着一些有趣的低谷。

Anthony Kaldellis 02:57:18

英文原文：This is one of them.

中文译文：这是其中之一。

Lex Fridman 02:57:20

英文原文：And that is as interesting as the survival at the top, and the flourishing survival at the bottom is also super interesting. So how do– What happens? How does it kind of stabilize?

中文译文：这和顶层的生存一样有趣，底层的繁盛生存也超级有趣。那么怎么办——会发生什么？它是如何稳定下来的？

Anthony Kaldellis 02:57:32

英文原文：Very slowly. This is a painful process, and it takes them centuries, you could say. First you gotta stop the bleeding, just try to hold the line. It takes them decades to just to hold a line. Like, they get pummeled by the Arabs for decades in the seventh century until finally by the 660s, 670, they finally begin to beat them. Beat them on land and hold the line on the sea. And so we now have an investment in fleets. Eventually, you get the Greek fire, which is the flamethrowers. And when the Arabs try to take Constantinople, these attempts are defeated, like, twice, and that ensures the survival of the Roman state in some form.

中文译文：非常慢。这是一个痛苦的过程，可以说需要几个世纪的时间。首先你得止血，尽力坚守阵地。他们花了几十年的时间才坚守阵线。就像，他们在七世纪被阿拉伯人殴打了几十年，直到最后到了 660 年代、670 年代，他们终于开始击败他们。在陆地上击败他们，在海上坚守阵线。因此，我们现在对机队进行了投资。最终，你得到了希腊之火，那就是火焰喷射器。当阿拉伯人试图占领君士坦丁堡时，这些企图两次被挫败，这以某种形式确保了罗马国家的生存。

Lex Fridman 02:58:27

英文原文：How were the flamethrowers used?

中文译文：火焰喷射器是如何使用的？

Anthony Kaldellis 02:58:29

英文原文：Yes, this is an interesting question. We’re still kind of debating that.

中文译文：是的，这是一个有趣的问题。我们仍在争论这一点。

Lex Fridman 02:58:33

英文原文：Oh, it’s not fully understood.

中文译文：哦，还没有完全明白。

Anthony Kaldellis 02:58:34

英文原文：Well, it’s a state secret. They didn’t want this getting out, so they kept it pretty well. The fact that we’re debating it will tell you that they were pretty good at keeping secrets. So possibly through a, a pressure valve. Right? So you have this flammable compound whose preparation and components is also a state secret. So there’s specialized– There’s a corps of engineers that prepares this and deploys it. And it’s possibly through a heated pressurized container with a spigot, let’s say, that unleashes this thing through a nozzle, and it’s lit and basically spews flaming napalm on other ships, and it will continue to burn even when it’s on the water.

中文译文：嗯，这是国家机密。他们不想让这件事泄露出去，所以他们把它保存得很好。我们正在辩论这一事实会告诉你，他们非常擅长保守秘密。因此可能通过压力阀。正确的？因此，这种易燃化合物的制备方法和成分也是国家机密。因此，有专门的工程师团队来准备并部署它。它可能是通过一个带有龙头的加热加压容器，比方说，通过喷嘴释放这个东西，它被点燃，基本上会向其他船只喷出燃烧的凝固汽油弹，即使它在水面上，它也会继续燃烧。

Anthony Kaldellis 02:59:29

英文原文：Right? On the top. So, like, you can’t, like, swim away or anything. So it’s this very, very destructive weapon. Terrifying. They used it against Vikings too. This is much later. So once the Vikings show up- … Like, when they would raid attacked Constantinople in the 940s, then again in the 1040s- … Yeah, the Romans used Greek fire fleets to just incinerate the… And that’ll teach Vikings. Yes. If you’re in that situation, you’d rather serve under the emperors than attack them.

中文译文：正确的？在上面。所以，就像，你不能，比如，游走或者其他什么。所以这是一种非常非常具有破坏性的武器。太可怕了。他们也用它来对付维京人。这是很久以后的事了。因此，一旦维京人出现——就像，当他们在 940 年代袭击君士坦丁堡时，然后在 1040 年代再次袭击——……是的，罗马人使用希腊火力舰队焚烧了……这将教会维京人。是的。如果你处于这种情况，你宁愿在皇帝手下服役，也不愿攻击他们。

[180:00]

Lex Fridman 03:00:06

英文原文：And so this is, this is a kind of nuclear weapon level state secret.

中文译文：所以这是,这是一种核武器级别的国家机密。

Anthony Kaldellis 03:00:10

英文原文：They even had it in hand grenade form.

中文译文：他们甚至还有手榴弹的形式。

Lex Fridman 03:00:14

英文原文：This is a real thing?

中文译文：这是真事吗？

Anthony Kaldellis 03:00:15

英文原文：Oh, yes.

中文译文：哦是的。

Lex Fridman 03:00:16

英文原文：Hand grenade form.

中文译文：手榴弹形式。

Anthony Kaldellis 03:00:17

英文原文：Yes. So it’s a, it’s like a clay container with the compound, and it has like some sort of fuse that you light on the outside and you throw it. Now, you throw it… You can throw it against people, but it’s not gonna be that effective. Maybe you burn a person, whatever. You just wasted a hand grenade for, you know, one person. It’s most effective against things like, siege engines. So you, you throw that on a wooden frame and, you know, yeah.

中文译文：是的。所以它就像一个装有化合物的粘土容器，它有某种保险丝，你在外面点燃然后扔掉它。现在，你扔它……你可以把它扔到人身上，但它不会那么有效。也许你会烧死一个人，无论如何。你只是为一个人浪费了一枚手榴弹。它对攻城器械之类的东西最有效。所以你，你把它扔到一个木框架上，你知道，是的。

Lex Fridman 03:00:45

英文原文：This is incredible. So this is one of the things that finally stabilized, stopped the bleeding from a military perspective.

中文译文：这太不可思议了。所以这是最终稳定下来的事情之一，从军事角度来看止血了。

Anthony Kaldellis 03:00:52

英文原文：Yeah, eventually. Now, now remember, they’ve pulled the armies back into Asia Minor, so they’re, they’re beginning to defend and fortify Asia Minor. Now you have to find ways to pay and support and feed all of these soldiers, and this is a whole administrative—it’s a wrenching administrative readjustment. But they go through it. It takes them a long time. Eventually, they emerge with a different kind of strategic logistical system.

中文译文：是的，最终。现在，请记住，他们已经将军队撤回到小亚细亚，所以他们开始保卫和加固小亚细亚。现在你必须找到方法来支付、支持和喂养所有这些士兵，这是一个完整的行政管理——这是一个痛苦的行政调整。但他们会经历这一切。他们需要很长时间。最终，他们形成了一种不同的战略后勤系统。

Lex Fridman 03:01:15

英文原文：Just a smaller, harder- … core- … of the empire.

中文译文：只是帝国的一个更小、更坚硬的……核心……。

Anthony Kaldellis 03:01:20

英文原文：That’s right. Very militarized.

中文译文：这是正确的。非常军事化。

Lex Fridman 03:01:22

英文原文：Very militarized. And then in the eighth century, the second Arab siege of Constantinople, that somehow fails.

中文译文：非常军事化。然后在八世纪，阿拉伯人第二次围攻君士坦丁堡，但不知何故失败了。

Anthony Kaldellis 03:01:31

英文原文：In the early eighth century, yes, that was the second siege.

中文译文：是的，在八世纪初，那是第二次围攻。

Lex Fridman 03:01:34

英文原文：Yeah, the early eighth century. So why, why did it fail? Can you tell the story of that siege? That was really the empire hanging by a thread.

中文译文：是的，八世纪初。那么为什么、为什么会失败呢？你能讲一下那次围城的故事吗？那真是命悬一线的帝国。

Anthony Kaldellis 03:01:43

英文原文：Yes, but it happened to have a very competent man in charge. This is Leo III, and he’s an emperor who has—he’s a usurper. He’s just seized power. They knew that this massive Arab attack was coming, and so it’s quite possible that the Roman elites, you know, preferred to put someone capable in power at that moment. The city was very well prepared. I encourage people in the audience to go and read the sources that we have for that. You can find many accounts of it online. It was just very, very well done. He also had Bulgar allies.

中文译文：是的，但碰巧有一个非常有能力的人负责。这是利奥三世，他是一位皇帝——他是一个篡位者。他刚刚夺取权力。他们知道这场大规模的阿拉伯袭击即将到来，所以罗马精英很可能在那个时候更愿意让有能力的人掌权。这个城市已经做好了充分的准备。我鼓励观众去阅读我们为此提供的资源。你可以在网上找到很多它的帐户。做得非常非常好。他也有保加利亚盟友。

Anthony Kaldellis 03:02:18

英文原文：So these are the Bulgars who had just, you know, crossed the Danube just like just a few years earlier actually and settled south of the Danube, you know, where eventually, you know, Bulgaria emerged. So he had Bulgar allies, and he used the Greek fire very, very strategically. He used his own fleet. He contained the Arabs to certain places where they kind of starved and wore them down. Yeah, it’s just very well done.

中文译文：因此，这些保加利亚人实际上就像几年前一样，刚刚越过多瑙河，定居在多瑙河以南，最终，保加利亚出现了。所以他有保加利亚盟友，而且他非常非常有策略地使用希腊之火。他使用了自己的舰队。他将阿拉伯人控制在某些地方，让他们挨饿、疲惫不堪。是的，做得很好。

Lex Fridman 03:02:42

英文原文：From a military perspective.

中文译文：从军事角度来说。

Anthony Kaldellis 03:02:44

英文原文：From a military perspective.

中文译文：从军事角度来说。

Lex Fridman 03:02:45

英文原文：Well, was there, was it the walls, the navy, the weather, the diplomacy, or just good luck that helped Constantinople hold?

中文译文：那么，是不是有城墙、海军、天气、外交，或者只是好运气帮助君士坦丁堡守住了呢？

Anthony Kaldellis 03:02:58

英文原文：I don’t see much role for good luck there. I mean, I think he had it all pretty planned out. It was all of the elements that you mentioned. And yeah, he just deployed them very, very astutely and went on to rule after that for another 20-some years, and his son continued. They formed a dynasty. We call it the Isaurian dynasty, though they were not from Isauria.

中文译文：我认为好运在那里没有多大作用。我的意思是，我认为他已经计划好了一切。这是你提到的所有元素。是的，他非常非常精明地部署了他们，然后又继续统治了 20 多年，他的儿子继续统治。他们建立了一个王朝。我们称其为伊索里亚王朝，尽管他们并非来自伊索里亚。

Lex Fridman 03:03:19

英文原文：And then from that, the fascinating thing that we mentioned about religion, there was a whole stretch of time marked by intense internal religious conflicts over iconoclasm. Maybe you can clarify this, but so iconoclasm, of course, is whether sacred images, icons, should be venerated or destroyed. This had major political and theological stakes. The seemingly smallest things can have the biggest of conflicts.

中文译文：从那时起，我们提到的关于宗教的令人着迷的事情，有一段时间以激烈的内部宗教冲突为标志。也许你可以澄清这一点，但偶像破坏当然是指神圣的图像、图标是否应该受到崇拜或摧毁。这具有重大的政治和神学利害关系。看似最小的事情可能会产生最大的冲突。

Anthony Kaldellis 03:03:48

英文原文：Yeah. You’ve been in an Orthodox church. Have you seen all the icons and the just painting everywhere? Every, every space that you can imagine is covered in either icons or images or iconography of saints.

中文译文：是的。你去过东正教教堂。你见过到处都是图标和正义的绘画吗？你能想象到的每一个空间都被圣人的圣像、图像或肖像所覆盖。

Anthony Kaldellis 03:04:01

英文原文：All right. That’s a result of this. No, that’s not what Christian churches used to be like, at least not in Constantinople. But his dynasty basically tried to limit or remove images from churches, and ultimately that policy failed. And the other side that wanted images or liked images, or let me put it differently, thought that images were not only appropriate but helpful in the context of Christian worship prevailed. And so gradually the churches began to fill up with icons, lots of icons. They’re almost like, you know, like a, a catch word for Orthodox, you know, devotion. I have icons at home. You have a little corner in the house and you have little iconography. Anyway, I mean, as a secular Orthodox person, but I… even I can’t get away from them.

中文译文：好的。这就是这个的结果。不，这不是基督教教堂过去的样子，至少在君士坦丁堡不是这样。但他的王朝基本上试图限制或删除教堂中的图像，但最终这一政策失败了。想要图像或喜欢图像的另一方，或者让我换句话说，认为图像不仅合适，而且在基督教崇拜盛行的背景下很有帮助。渐渐地，教堂里开始充满了圣像，大量的圣像。它们几乎就像，你知道，就像东正教的流行语，你知道，奉献。我家里有图标。房子里有一个小角落，几乎没有肖像。无论如何，我的意思是，作为一个世俗的东正教徒，但我……甚至我都无法摆脱他们。

Lex Fridman 03:04:55

英文原文：But that has serious consequences. I mean, that was-

中文译文：但这会带来严重的后果。我的意思是，那是——

Anthony Kaldellis 03:04:57

英文原文：It does, yes,

中文译文：确实如此，是的，

Lex Fridman 03:04:57

英文原文：… serious. It was an extremely serious internal religious conflict.

中文译文：… 严肃的。这是一场极为严重的内部宗教冲突。

Anthony Kaldellis 03:05:01

英文原文：Well, okay, so one asterisk on that. In my research, I did not find a popular interest in this matter. Like-

中文译文：好吧，好吧，那就加一个星号吧。在我的研究中，我没有发现人们对这个问题感兴趣。喜欢-

Lex Fridman 03:05:12

英文原文：Oh, interesting

中文译文：哦，有趣

Anthony Kaldellis 03:05:12

英文原文：… yeah, I don’t-

中文译文：……是的，我不——

Lex Fridman 03:05:14

英文原文：So this is an overblown-

中文译文：所以这是一个夸张的说法——

Anthony Kaldellis 03:05:15

英文原文：Yes. Yes, socially completely overblown.

中文译文：是的。是的，在社交上完全被夸大了。

Lex Fridman 03:05:18

英文原文：Oh, this is one of those things where religious folks will write the story of history.

中文译文：哦，这是宗教人士书写历史故事的事情之一。

Anthony Kaldellis 03:05:23

英文原文：That’s it. Got it.

中文译文：就是这样。知道了。

Lex Fridman 03:05:24

英文原文：Ah.

中文译文：啊。

Anthony Kaldellis 03:05:25

英文原文：You got it. I could not find… There were, like, a few emperors, and there’s some bishops and abbots and monks. Like, I don’t know, maybe 100, 200 people are, like, seriously invested in this, and they’re going at it. But these are the people who write the texts. But they never mention, for example, that, oh, you know, the, the people of Constantinople, they rose up, and they demanded icons or not icons or anything like that. Nah, never. So in my view, this is one of those controversies that’s only a few people really, really cared- … about it, and unfortunately, they’re the ones who wrote the sources.

中文译文：你明白了。我找不到……有，比如，一些皇帝，还有一些主教、修道院院长和僧侣。就像，我不知道，也许有 100、200 个人认真地投入到这件事上，并且他们正在努力。但这些是撰写文本的人。但他们从来没有提到，例如，哦，你知道，君士坦丁堡的人民，他们起来了，他们要求圣像或没有圣像或类似的东西。不，从来没有。因此，在我看来，这是只有少数人真正非常关心的争议之一……不幸的是，他们是撰写来源的人。

Lex Fridman 03:06:04

英文原文：So you always have to be very careful to consider the sources when you’re reading about anything involving religious events.

中文译文：因此，当您阅读涉及宗教事件的任何内容时，您始终必须非常小心地考虑来源。

Anthony Kaldellis 03:06:14

英文原文：Or any kind of events.

中文译文：或者任何类型的事件。

Lex Fridman 03:06:15

英文原文：But certain things are more intensely, people are more intensely passionate about- … and therefore they’re going, that bias is going to- … bleed into the way you report the history.

中文译文：但某些事情更加强烈，人们更加热衷于……因此他们会，这种偏见将……渗透到你报告历史的方式中。

Anthony Kaldellis 03:06:28

英文原文：Yeah. And not only that, when emperors changed their policy, almost everyone fell into line. They switched positions. It’s like, “No, yeah, whatever. Put the images, take the images,” like, whatever. I mean, like this isn’t, they did not see this as central. Some people did, and they got very worked up about it. Anyway, but in the end, the pro-icon position won, and their view just began to fill up the space. Like, like it literally was filling up the churches, and it still does. Yeah.

中文译文：是的。不仅如此，当皇帝改变政策时，几乎每个人都会屈服。他们交换了位置。就像，“不，是的，无论如何。放置图像，拍摄图像，”就像，无论如何。我的意思是，就像事实并非如此，他们并不认为这是核心。有些人这样做了，而且他们对此非常激动。无论如何，但最终，支持偶像的立场获胜，他们的观点开始填补空间。就好像它确实填满了教堂，而且现在仍然如此。是的。

Why the Roman empire survived so long

Lex Fridman 03:07:02

英文原文：The thing is, we somehow took on the impossible task of talking about a thousand-

中文译文：问题是，我们以某种方式承担了谈论一千个不可能的任务——

Anthony Kaldellis 03:07:10

英文原文：It’ll defeat you, man. It’ll defeat you every time.

中文译文：它会打败你的，伙计。它每次都会打败你。

Lex Fridman 03:07:12

英文原文：I mean, there’s a reason why you really wanna do a thousand-hour podcast on this, right? As you do, as there’s so many incredible conversations about every single emperor, every single nuanced detail of the emperors. It really is a thriving civilization. It’s a thriving empire which in it contains so many lessons for even the modern times. But anyway, you have written one of the books is Streams of Gold, Rivers of Blood: The Rise and Fall of Byzantium, 955 AD to the First Crusade. So this period has… We talked about survival and some low points. This is a period where, once again, there’s some flourishing. So by the 10th century in the Macedonian era, the empire is back. It’s wealthy, it’s culturally confident, and under emperors like Basil II who I think is in your top 10 list.

中文译文：我的意思是，你真的想为此做一个 1000 小时的播客，是有原因的，对吧？就像你所做的那样，因为有很多关于每一位皇帝的令人难以置信的对话，关于皇帝的每一个微妙的细节。这确实是一个繁荣的文明。这是一个繁荣的帝国，其中甚至为现代提供了许多教训。但无论如何，你写过的一本书是《黄金之河》、《血河》：拜占庭的兴衰，公元 955 年至第一次十字军东征。所以这个时期……我们谈论了生存和一些低谷。这是一个再次繁荣的时期。所以到了 10 世纪的马其顿时代，帝国又回来了。它很富有，在文化上充满自信，并且在像巴西尔二世这样的皇帝的统治下，我认为他在你的十大名单中。

Lex Fridman 03:08:11

英文原文：It is expanding again, and this is a period that you describe in part in your book, Streams of Gold, Rivers of Blood. So how did Byzantium go from surviving to expanding again?

中文译文：它再次扩张，这是你在《金河血流》一书中部分描述的一段时期。那么拜占庭是如何从幸存到再次扩张的呢？

Anthony Kaldellis 03:08:23

英文原文：So I wrote that book in part in order to test myself and see if I could write narrative. So I hadn’t written a history narrative book up until that point. Everything I wrote was sort of analytical, right? And it was successful enough that a few years later, my editor asked me to write the big history, the new Roman Empire-

中文译文：所以我写那本书的部分原因是为了测试自己，看看我是否可以写叙事。所以在那之前我还没有写过一本历史叙事书。我写的所有内容都是分析性的，对吗？它非常成功，几年后，我的编辑让我写一部伟大的历史，新的罗马帝国——

Lex Fridman 03:08:44

英文原文：Yeah

中文译文：是的

Anthony Kaldellis 03:08:45

英文原文：… the thousand page—

中文译文：……一千页——

Lex Fridman 03:08:46

英文原文：Of the whole thing

中文译文：整个事情的

Anthony Kaldellis 03:08:46

英文原文：… of the whole thing. And so I set for myself the task of explaining in this book, Streams of Gold, Rivers of Blood, a very particular period that was marked by a sudden turn to conquest again after a long period of more or less defensive war. 955, a new military leadership is appointed, and the Romans go conquering again, especially in Cilicia, northern Syria, and Cyprus, and the Caucasus, and then eventually also Bulgaria. And then right afterwards, they have this generation plus period of stability and prosperity, and then they’re hit by a triple whammy. These are three new attackers. So it’s primarily the Seljuk Turks coming in from the east, some Pechenegs coming down from the north over the Danube, and the Normans in southern Italy.

中文译文：……整个事情。因此，我为自己设定了一个任务，在《黄金之流，血之河流》这本书中解释一个非常特殊的时期，其特点是在经历了长时间或多或少的防御战争之后突然再次转向征服。 955 年，任命了新的军事领导层，罗马人再次进行征服，特别是在奇里乞亚、叙利亚北部、塞浦路斯和高加索地区，最后还征服了保加利亚。然后他们就过了这一代加上一段稳定繁荣的时期，然后他们就受到了三重打击。这是三名新的攻击者。因此，主要是从东部进来的塞尔柱土耳其人，一些佩切涅格人从北部越过多瑙河而来，以及意大利南部的诺曼人。

Anthony Kaldellis 03:09:47

英文原文：And under the pressure of this three-part attack, the, you know, this expansionist—what had become a more imperial state—buckles. And enters another one of these crises, just like the one we described for the seventh century. You know, survives it by the skin of its teeth. And goes on again to rebuild and become prosperous, wealthy, and powerful again, as it does throughout its history. It’s these cycles. So I just wanted to describe that iteration of that- … that process, and that’s what I do in that book.

中文译文：在这三部分攻击的压力下，你知道，这个扩张主义者——已经成为一个更加帝国化的国家——屈服了。然后又进入了另一场危机，就像我们在七世纪所描述的那样。你知道，它是靠牙齿皮才活下来的。然后继续重建，再次变得繁荣、富有和强大，就像它在历史上所做的那样。就是这些循环。所以我只是想描述那个过程的迭代，这就是我在那本书中所做的。

[190:00]

Lex Fridman 03:10:25

英文原文：So I think the traditional view in this perfect storm of the 11th century is that it was more to do with the internal sort of moral decay and civilian emperors neglecting the army, this internal stuff. And you make the case that it’s the external stuff, the three-prong attack, like you said, Normans in the west, the Turkic steppe people in the north, and in Central Asia, the Turks in the east. Can you describe that—the three forces—and the case that that was the main reason why it hit a low?

中文译文：所以我认为，对于 11 世纪这场完美风暴的传统观点是，这更多地与内部道德败坏和文官皇帝忽视军队这种内部事物有关。你说这是外部因素，三管齐下的进攻，就像你说的，西部的诺曼人，北部的突厥草原民族，以及东部的中亚土耳其人。您能描述一下这三种力量以及这是导致股价跌至低点的主要原因吗？

Anthony Kaldellis 03:11:05

英文原文：Well, this is also a methodological problem, right? In other words, when you’re looking at a society that suddenly faces a bunch of problems, and you could, you know, reasonably make the case for a kind of decline or a crisis, is your instinct, it’s your first instinct to suppose that there must be something wrong in the internal mechanisms of that society that, you know, led it to fail, which is what my field has done traditionally. In part because of the decline and fall model, right, of this society, we’re kind of primed to think that there was something wrong with it.

中文译文：嗯，这也是一个方法论问题吧？换句话说，当你看到一个突然面临一堆问题的社会时，你可以，你知道，合理地为某种衰落或危机提出理由，这是你的本能，这是你的第一本能，认为这个社会的内部机制一定有问题，导致它失败，这就是我的领域传统上所做的。部分原因是这个社会的衰落和衰落模式，对吧，我们很容易认为它出了问题。

Anthony Kaldellis 03:11:40

英文原文：It’s a long story. Or is it reasonable to say that a society that does not seem to have any, like, particularly serious structural flaws is hit by external, you know, challenges that it couldn’t realistically have foreseen or prepared for such that, you know, it couldn’t cope with them and, as I said, buckled. And I think that’s what happened. I think that’s the main narrative. Not that there weren’t problems. There were. But no state can, I mean, medieval or ancient, can realistically survive the simultaneous attack of three very different kinds of enemies, the Normans or, like, these knights, like a new type of Western warfare that is just all about, you know, grinding the enemy to bits. But who are also terrorists. Like, they’re straight up terrorists.

中文译文：这是一个很长的故事。或者可以合理地说，一个似乎没有任何特别严重的结构性缺陷的社会受到了外部挑战的打击，你知道，它实际上无法预见或准备应对这些挑战，你知道，它无法应对这些挑战，并且正如我所说，屈服了。我认为这就是发生的事情。我认为这就是主要叙述。并不是说没有问题。有。但我的意思是，无论是中世纪还是古代，没有一个国家能够真正在三种截然不同的敌人的同时攻击中幸存下来，诺曼人，或者像这些骑士，就像一种新型的西方战争，你知道，这种战争就是把敌人碾成碎片。但谁也是恐怖分子。就像，他们是彻头彻尾的恐怖分子。

Lex Fridman 03:12:40

英文原文：Normans are fascinating because, I mean, there’s-

中文译文：诺曼人很迷人，因为，我的意思是，有——

Anthony Kaldellis 03:12:41

英文原文：Yeah

中文译文：是的

Lex Fridman 03:12:41

英文原文：… there’s a Viking component too- … with the Normans. That’s a whole… So they have, they have three different kinds of enemies.

中文译文：……还有维京人的成分——……诺曼人。这是一个整体……所以他们有，他们有三种不同类型的敌人。

Anthony Kaldellis 03:12:50

英文原文：Yes. The Pechenegs, who, you know, a totally different type of, you know, probably mostly nomadic horsemen. And then the Seljuk Turks who are also mostly nomadic horsemen, but who are coming in from Central Asia with vast reserves of manpower behind them. In fact, either intending to or, as it happens, effecting a demographic change in not just demographic, but ecological too, because they basically, when they move into Asia Minor, they’re transforming or terraforming agricultural land into pasturage. And they’re just backed by reserves of manpower that no other enemy of the empire has had yet.

中文译文：是的。佩切涅格人，你知道，他们是一种完全不同类型的人，你知道，可能主要是游牧骑兵。然后是塞尔柱突厥人，他们也大多是游牧骑兵，但他们从中亚而来，背后有大量的人力储备。事实上，无论是有意为之，还是碰巧影响了人口变化，不仅是人口变化，而且是生态变化，因为基本上，当他们进入小亚细亚时，他们正在将农业用地转变为牧场。他们只是得到了帝国其他敌人还没有拥有的人力储备的支持。

Anthony Kaldellis 03:13:38

英文原文：So yeah, how do you, how do you cope with these situations? I mean, they’re, it’s very, very difficult, and it’s a wonder that they survived it at all. Now, they also have internal problems, and I’m not gonna sort of try to sweep these under the rug, right? In particular, we’re seeing the end of the Macedonian dynasty. This is a dynasty that had lasted for about two centuries, and this has a kind of politically destabilizing effect. New emperors, and there are a lot of, like, childless old men in this period, are relatively insecure.

中文译文：那么，是的，你如何应对这些情况？我的意思是，这非常非常困难，他们能够幸存下来真是一个奇迹。现在，他们也有内部问题，我不会试图掩盖这些问题，对吗？特别是，我们正在见证马其顿王朝的终结。这是一个持续了大约两个世纪的王朝，这具有某种政治不稳定的影响。新皇帝，以及这个时期有很多没有孩子的老人，都相对缺乏安全感。

Anthony Kaldellis 03:14:10

英文原文：They don’t have this sort of a dynastic glitz behind them, and so they’re tending to, to buy a lot of political support, like hand out these exemptions, give cash, you know, titles to anyone who will support them, and this, of course, causes a budget problem. Like, they don’t have enough money after a while. And then they have to start raising all of these armies to deal with all of these problems, and that just increases the pressure on the budget, and so there is an internal problem as well, yeah.

中文译文：他们背后没有这种王朝的浮华，所以他们倾向于购买大量的政治支持，比如发放这些豁免，给任何支持他们的人现金，你知道，头衔，这当然会导致预算问题。就像，过了一段时间他们就没有足够的钱了。然后他们必须开始筹集所有这些军队来解决所有这些问题，这只会增加预算压力，因此也存在内部问题，是的。

Lex Fridman 03:14:36

英文原文：So you mentioned this loop of thriving and then having to survive, surviving, that happens a few times- … throughout the history of the Roman Empire. It seems that societies in general oscillate in that way. Is there something particular you could say about the oscillations, the loops that the Roman Empire goes through?

中文译文：所以你提到了这种繁荣然后必须生存、生存的循环，这种情况在罗马帝国的历史上发生过几次。似乎整个社会都以这种方式振荡。关于罗马帝国所经历的振荡和循环，您有什么特别的可以说的吗？

Anthony Kaldellis 03:14:59

英文原文：Yes. Now, I don’t think this is an oscillation. At least that’s not how I think of it in my own mind. So as I explained, the crises that this em- this polity, this state, this society that it undergoes are dis- there are a discrete number of them. I can, I can tell you what they are, and we’ve, we’ve talked about most of them so far.

中文译文：是的。现在，我不认为这是一种振荡。至少我自己不这么认为。正如我所解释的，这个政体、这个国家、这个社会所经历的危机是离散的。我可以，我可以告诉你它们是什么，到目前为止我们已经讨论了其中的大部分。

Anthony Kaldellis 03:15:21

英文原文：They don’t last very long, and they are all sudden challenges that appear from the outside. In other words, they’re exogenous shocks that they can’t really have prepared for. These shocks cause massive territorial loss, which requires adjustment, right? But they don’t last that long. In other words, the Romans almost always, at some point, figure out how to hold a line, how to consolidate their position, regroup, and put their economy and their society back on a trajectory of revival, regrowth, and eventual reconquest. Always. Every single time, except the last time, right? And for me, this poses the following kind of dilemma which I can answer.

中文译文：它们持续的时间不会很长，都是从外部突然出现的挑战。换句话说，它们是他们无法真正做好准备的外来冲击。这些冲击造成了巨大的领土损失，需要调整，对吗？但它们不会持续那么久。换句话说，罗马人几乎总是在某个时刻弄清楚如何守住阵线，如何巩固自己的地位，重新集结，并使他们的经济和社会重新走上复兴、重新增长和最终重新征服的轨道。总是。每一次，除了最后一次，对吗？对我来说，这提出了以下我可以回答的困境。

Anthony Kaldellis 03:16:17

英文原文：And the dilemma is, should we define the society by these brief crises of exogenous shocks, or should we define it by the centuries-long, sometimes, periods of regrowth, consolidation, and stabilization which are endogenous. Nobody came from the outside to help them rebuild. And my answer is unequivocally the latter. So I see this as a society whose internal organization primes it to stabilize and embark on steady growth. Slow and gradual, but steady. And, and that’s what I would like my field to explain more, and I’m gonna try to do so in the book I mentioned that I’m writing on, like, the longevity or the resilience of this society.

中文译文：困境在于，我们应该用这些短暂的外源性冲击危机来定义社会，还是应该用长达几个世纪的、有时是内源性的再生、巩固和稳定时期来定义社会。没有人从外面来帮助他们重建。而我的回答无疑是后者。因此，我认为这是一个内部组织使其稳定并开始稳定增长的社会。缓慢而渐进，但稳定。而且，这就是我希望我的领域能够做出更多解释的内容，我将在我提到的我正在写的书中尝试这样做，例如，这个社会的长寿或弹性。

Anthony Kaldellis 03:17:10

英文原文：And not try to center the crises, which I see as being from the outside. Like, these aren’t… Of course, they’re part of its story, but they’re not coming from it. What’s coming from it is the stability, and I think that’s the more interesting part of this society.

中文译文：不要试图将危机集中化，我认为危机来自外部。就像，这些不是……当然，它们是故事的一部分，但它们并不是来自故事。由此带来的是稳定，我认为这是这个社会更有趣的部分。

Lex Fridman 03:17:26

英文原文：Yeah, so the, you know, these peak-to-peak histories, as you can think of them, they miss the machinery in the valleys. Institutions, incentives, daily life, all of these things. The politics, the religion. You have a bunch of revisionist history ideas in your work. You’re challenging the field.

中文译文：是的，所以，你知道，这些从高峰到高峰的历史，正如你所能想到的，他们错过了山谷中的机器。制度、激励措施、日常生活，所有这些东西。政治、宗教。你的作品中有很多修正主义的历史思想。你正在挑战这个领域。

Anthony Kaldellis 03:17:45

英文原文：Yes. You could say that.

中文译文：是的。你可以这么说。

Lex Fridman 03:17:47

英文原文：In the best possible way. So just to linger on it, what are, what are some of the things that historians miss? So this is a big one, right, that you’re speaking to, which is, like, focusing too much on specific moments versus on the broad structural underpinnings of, of an empire, of our society.

中文译文：以最好的方式。那么，我们继续思考一下，历史学家错过了什么？所以这是一个大问题，对吧，你正在谈论的，就像是，过多地关注特定时刻而不是帝国和我们社会的广泛结构基础。

Anthony Kaldellis 03:18:08

英文原文：Right. So what you alluded to there is a critique of what we might call short histories of Byzantium, which is a kind of genre of a book. Right? This isn’t necessarily, like, what my other revisionist ideas are about. The more important ones are things like the monarchical republic that we talked about. In other words, that there’s actually a broader spectrum of political participation. That emperors are having to look over their shoulders all the time. That there is a deeper matrix of Roman Republican thought there. Like, that’s one revisionist idea. Another one is about Roman identity, just like who are these people?

中文译文：正确的。所以你提到的是对我们所谓的拜占庭短史的批评，这是一种书的类型。正确的？这不一定是我的其他修正主义想法的内容。比较重要的就是像我们讲的君主共和这样的东西。换句话说，实际上存在更广泛的政治参与。皇帝们必须时刻警惕。那里有更深层次的罗马共和思想矩阵。就像，这是一种修正主义想法。另一个是关于罗马身份的，就像这些人是谁？

Anthony Kaldellis 03:18:45

英文原文：And no, they are Romans, and in fact, it’s kind of an ethnic identity after a certain point. Like, those kinds of ideas. The criticism of the peak-to-peak kinds of books. So if you’re trying to condense 1,200 years into 120 pages or even, you know, even 200 pages, there’s no way to do so realistically and give a sense of the whole terrain. In other words, what these books do is they go, they jump from highlight to highlight, and these highlights are sometimes things like, you know, everything Justinian did because it’s so extravagant, to the crises.

中文译文：不，他们是罗马人，事实上，在某种程度上，这是一种种族身份。就像那些想法。对峰峰类书籍的批评。因此，如果你试图将 1,200 年压缩成 120 页，甚至 200 页，就没有办法真实地做到这一点并给出整个地形的了解。换句话说，这些书所做的就是它们从一个亮点跳到另一个亮点，这些亮点有时是查士丁尼所做的一切，因为它太奢侈了，导致了危机。

Anthony Kaldellis 03:19:22

英文原文：The crises are, of course, dramatic moments that you can’t skip. And you can’t get a sense from these books as to how all of this is interconnected in the valleys, right? In the crags, down there. Like, what, what are the mechanisms that are connecting these peaks together? And that’s how I tried to write the big history, The New Roman Empire. Is to tell the story by casting light in those darker places. That is, to show how especially institutions and ideologies sort of tie, you know, people’s lives together. That is, tie people to institutions and to the broader history that surrounds them.

中文译文：当然，危机是你无法跳过的戏剧性时刻。你无法从这些书中了解所有这些在山谷中是如何相互关联的，对吗？在悬崖里，在下面。比如，将这些峰连接在一起的机制是什么？这就是我试图书写新罗马帝国伟大历史的方式。就是通过在那些较暗的地方投射光线来讲述故事。也就是说，要展示制度和意识形态如何将人们的生活联系在一起。也就是说，将人们与机构以及围绕他们的更广泛的历史联系起来。

[200:00]

Anthony Kaldellis 03:20:02

英文原文：So that the reader can get a sense when I’m, when I’m recounting specific events or either of, you know, greatness or of a success or a failure, that they can understand roughly why these things are happening, right? Look, there’s no perfect answer. A short book will just not tell you these things. A long book, well, is a long book.

中文译文：这样，当我讲述具体事件或任何一个伟大的事件或成功或失败的事件时，读者就能感觉到，他们可以大致理解为什么会发生这些事情，对吗？看，没有完美的答案。一本小书不会告诉你这些事情。一本很长的书，嗯，就是一本很长的书。

Lex Fridman 03:20:26

英文原文：Well, in some sense, I mean, this, in this, even in this very conversation, I think we did a pretty good job of looking at the valleys, at the structure, at the institutions. And that gives you a sense of the whole underpinnings. And so it’s, it’s beautiful. It’s a beautiful way to see history, especially for societies that have lasted as long as- … as the, as the East Roman Empire has.

中文译文：嗯，从某种意义上说，我的意思是，在这一点上，即使在这次谈话中，我认为我们在审视山谷、结构和机构方面做得非常好。这会让你了解整个基础。就这样，它很美丽。这是一种看待历史的美丽方式，特别是对于那些历史悠久的社会来说……就像东罗马帝国一样。

Anthony Kaldellis 03:20:44

英文原文：But it did take us a few hours.

中文译文：但我们确实花了几个小时。

Lex Fridman 03:20:46

英文原文：Yes.

中文译文：是的。

Anthony Kaldellis 03:20:46

英文原文：Yes. You’re right. But it requires that you actually spend some time to look in there, yeah. Yeah.

中文译文：是的。你说得对。但这需要你真正花一些时间去看看，是的。是的。

Lex Fridman 03:20:53

英文原文：What’s a few hours among friends?

中文译文：朋友之间的几个小时算什么？

Anthony Kaldellis 03:20:55

英文原文：No, no, no, that’s… I agree.

中文译文：不，不，不，那是……我同意。

Lex Fridman 03:20:58

英文原文：So zooming out and asking once again, the old—we’re getting a little close to last call at a bar, I’m gonna ask you the big question. We asked it before about the collapse of the West Roman Empire. When did the decline of the East Roman Empire begin for you? Throughout these loops, when, if you were to predict, would you be able to say where this is gonna be over? And what led to that decline and the collapse? So of course, the collapse is finally in 1453 AD.

中文译文：所以，把镜头拉远，再问一次，老兄，我们距离最后一次在酒吧的通话已经很近了，我要问你一个大问题。我们之前问过西罗马帝国的崩溃。对你来说，东罗马帝国什么时候开始衰落的？在这些循环中，如果你要预测的话，你能说出这将在什么时候结束吗？是什么导致了这种衰落和崩溃？当然，最终崩溃是在公元 1453 年。

Anthony Kaldellis 03:21:44

英文原文：Right. That’s actually a very good question. In other words, not looking at all of the previous crises that caused loss of territory, like, you know, you lose Egypt, you lose Syria, you lose Palestine, you lose Eastern Asia Minor, you lo- right? But at what point could you say there’s no coming back from this?

中文译文：正确的。这实际上是一个非常好的问题。换句话说，不考虑之前所有导致领土丧失的危机，比如，你知道，你失去了埃及，你失去了叙利亚，你失去了巴勒斯坦，你失去了小亚细亚东部，你知道吗？但什么时候你可以说已经无法挽回了呢？

Anthony Kaldellis 03:22:04

英文原文：Right? I would say early 14th century. Somewhere between 1300 and 1350, the sources of resilience begin to dry up, and you have a number of setbacks. They lose Asia Minor to the Turks by 1300, roughly, which means that you can now no longer draw upon the two wings, as it were, the European side and the Asian side, which they could always do. They’re confined to Europe. And then you have a series of civil wars, you have the Serbian expansion and you have the Black Death, and they never recover from that. In 1300, you think of this, you look at it and you think, “That’s a tiny little Balkan state.”

中文译文：正确的？我想说的是 14 世纪初。在 1300 到 1350 之间的某个时间，恢复力的来源开始枯竭，你会遇到很多挫折。大约 1300 年，他们将小亚细亚输给了土耳其人，这意味着你现在不能再利用两个侧翼，可以说是欧洲一侧和亚洲一侧，而他们总是可以这样做。他们仅限于欧洲。然后发生了一系列的内战，塞尔维亚的扩张，黑死病，他们再也没有从中恢复过来。 1300 年，你想到这一点，看着它，你就会想，“那是一个小小的巴尔干国家。”

Anthony Kaldellis 03:22:54

英文原文：Okay, it goes from Constantinople to the Adriatic in this just sort of ribbon, right, this corridor that just stretches across the Balkans. And yet, it’s not that much smaller than England and has about as much, if not more, revenue, because they’re still able to raise cash, because taxes. Right? So the emperor’s still able to pull in a lot of gold. And his territory is not, you know, completely insignificant. It’s not what, you know, the Roman Empire used to be. But I don’t think that it’s completely lost. Then they have some civil wars. Then one emper- a rebel makes a deal with the Serbs, surrenders half that territory. Okay, after that, game over. What’s surprising is it takes the Turks that long. 1453, that’s another century.

中文译文：好吧，它从君士坦丁堡到亚得里亚海，就像一条丝带，对吧，这条走廊横跨巴尔干半岛。然而，它并不比英格兰小多少，而且收入也差不多，甚至更多，因为他们仍然能够通过税收筹集现金。正确的？所以皇帝还是能够赚到很多黄金的。你知道，他的领土并非完全无足轻重。你知道，这不是罗马帝国曾经的样子。但我不认为它已经完全消失了。然后他们发生了一些内战。然后，一位皇帝——一名叛军与塞尔维亚人达成协议，交出了一半领土。好吧，之后游戏就结束了。令人惊讶的是土耳其人花了这么长时间。 1453 年，又一个世纪了。

Anthony Kaldellis 03:23:44

英文原文：Right? It didn’t need to be. It looks like they might have had it wrapped up like 50 years aft-, you know, like by 1400. But then accidental events happened. This is Timur, Tamerlane comes- … from Central Asia, trounces the Turks, breaks up their empire. So they go into a cycle of, you know, rebuilding, and so that’s why it takes another 50 years. Anyway, but I’d say by the 1340s, game over.

中文译文：正确的？本来不必如此。看起来他们可能在 50 年后——你知道，比如 1400 年——就已经结束了。但随后发生了意外事件。这是帖木儿，帖木儿来自……来自中亚，击败了土耳其人，瓦解了他们的帝国。所以他们进入了一个重建周期，这就是为什么又需要 50 年的时间。无论如何，但我想说，到了 1340 年代，游戏就结束了。

Lex Fridman 03:24:12

英文原文：And so why did it collapse? What are the things in the ground, when you zoom out, the thing that ate away at the, I like this term, sources of resilience?

中文译文：那么它为什么会崩溃呢？当你缩小视野时，地下有哪些东西会侵蚀（我喜欢这个词）弹性来源？

Anthony Kaldellis 03:24:26

英文原文：Oh, foreign invasions. There’s no question. It’s just-

中文译文：哦，外国入侵。毫无疑问。这只是——

Lex Fridman 03:24:28

英文原文：It’s just invasions.

中文译文：这只是入侵。

Anthony Kaldellis 03:24:29

英文原文：…it’s foreign invasions, those which they could not cope with. They coped with lots of them. But, you know, it, all it takes is to lose to one, and you lose some part of your territory. And if you keep losing enough, you won’t have anything to fall back on, and that’s what happens.

中文译文：……这是他们无法应对的外国入侵。他们应付了很多。但是，你知道，它，只要输给一个人，你就会失去一部分领土。如果你继续失去足够多的东西，你就没有任何东西可以依靠，这就是发生的事情。

Lex Fridman 03:24:49

英文原文：So really, you know, if there’s no significant external invasions, the East Roman Empire, the fundamentals, the taxation system, the way the policies were developed, the way the politics was done, the way the representation was done, all of that, this empire could have lasted for another thousand years.

中文译文：所以说真的，你知道，如果没有重大的外部入侵，东罗马帝国的基本面、税收制度、政策制定方式、政治运作方式、代表权运作方式，所有这些，这个帝国还可以再持续一千年。

Anthony Kaldellis 03:25:14

英文原文：Absolutely. I’m absolutely convinced of this because you never see movements to split away. That is, there’s no separatist movements, at least not on the part of any Roman provincials. There’s one separatist movement, which is Bulgaria. We mentioned Bulgaria was conquered, right, in 1018. It, there’s a couple of independentist movements, rebellions. Eventually one succeeds in 1185, so just under two centuries. So Bulgaria is the only part of this empire that actively seeks to break away and does so. But for the rest of the 1,200 years, you don’t find provincials wanting to leave this system. However much they complain about the taxes, they don’t want to leave, and they make no move to do so.

中文译文：绝对地。我对此深信不疑，因为你永远不会看到分离的动作。也就是说，不存在分离主义运动，至少在罗马外省没有。有一个分离主义运动，那就是保加利亚。我们提到保加利亚在 1018 年被征服了，对吧。其中有一些独立运动、叛乱。最终有人在 1185 年取得了成功，距今不到两个世纪。因此，保加利亚是这个帝国中唯一积极寻求脱离并确实这样做的部分。但在接下来的 1200 年里，你找不到外省人想要离开这个体系。无论他们如何抱怨税收，他们都不想离开，也没有采取任何行动。

Anthony Kaldellis 03:26:01

英文原文：You also never have a moment when the center loses its ability to tax its territories, right? You don’t have, like, widespread peasant uprisings or agricultural rebellions or these kinds of things which happens in every other one of these empires. They also never decide to partition it. The Franks partition theirs, right, like after Charlemagne. No. There are no, like, Roman warlords that try to carve out a piece of the territory for themselves and rule it independent. Nope, that doesn’t happen either. So if you’re looking at the kinds of factors that cause states to fail, fragment, you know, become ungovernable, these never happen.

中文译文：中心也永远不会失去对其领土征税的能力，对吗？你没有像其他帝国那样发生广泛的农民起义或农业叛乱或此类事件。他们也从未决定对其进行分区。法兰克人瓜分了他们的土地，对吧，就像查理曼大帝之后一样。不。没有像罗马军阀那样试图为自己开辟一块领土并独立统治它的人。不，这也不会发生。因此，如果你正在研究导致国家失败、分裂、变得无法治理的各种因素，那么这些永远不会发生。

Lex Fridman 03:26:47

英文原文：This is so incredible. This is truly incredible. In the history of human civilization, just an incredible study of what human societies can form. So, what are the whys? Why? Why? Why was it so stable?

中文译文：这太不可思议了。这实在是令人难以置信。在人类文明史上，这是对人类社会如何形成的令人难以置信的研究。那么，到底是什么原因呢？为什么？为什么？为什么这么稳定？

Anthony Kaldellis 03:27:04

英文原文：Well, now look, there are other stable… Like, for example the, the British monarchy.

中文译文：好吧，现在看看，还有其他稳定的……例如，英国君主制。

Lex Fridman 03:27:10

英文原文：Sure.

中文译文：当然。

Anthony Kaldellis 03:27:10

英文原文：That’s been around for quite a while.

中文译文：这已经存在很长一段时间了。

Lex Fridman 03:27:11

英文原文：Yeah, that’s true.

中文译文：是的，确实如此。

Anthony Kaldellis 03:27:12

英文原文：Right? States like Portugal, Japan, they have one thing in common. They’re all tucked away at the edges. Like, they’re off, they’re little islands or whatever. They’re not like, right? We’re talking about a society that was right in the-

中文译文：正确的？像葡萄牙、日本这样的国家有一个共同点。它们都藏在边缘。就像，它们已经离开了，它们是小岛什么的。他们不像，对吧？我们正在谈论一个正确的社会——

Lex Fridman 03:27:27

英文原文：In the, yeah

中文译文：在，是的

Anthony Kaldellis 03:27:28

英文原文：… middle of one of the main corridors of empire building and new religions in the world. This is the most dangerous neighborhood, right, that you can possibly live in. So no wonder it didn’t survive. Like it would’ve been extraordinary if it had. But absent those forces, I don’t see any forces of internal decomposition that would have imperiled it, you know, significantly.

中文译文：...世界上帝国建设和新宗教的主要走廊之一的中间。这是你可能居住的最危险的社区，对吧。所以难怪它没能幸存下来。好像如果有的话那就非同寻常了。但如果没有这些力量，我看不到任何内部分解的力量会严重危及它。

Lex Fridman 03:27:56

英文原文：So what, I mean we’ve talked about a lot of it, but what, just to, like, return to it, why was there no internal sources of decomposition? Like why, why did it work so well? Why did the people feel represented? Yes, they… By the way, you talked about how they complain about the taxes, which is one of the signs of a healthy society, that we… It’s like complaining about the weather. The fact that you complain about the taxes actually means that you’re happy with the taxes, kind of counterintuitively, or it’s not too bad. You’re just complaining as part of the system. Anyway, but why? Why, why did it work so well? Why did everybody get along-

中文译文：那么，我的意思是我们已经讨论了很多，但是，只是回到它，为什么没有内部分解源？比如为什么，为什么效果这么好？为什么人们感到自己有代表性？是的，他们……顺便说一句，你谈到他们如何抱怨税收，这是健康社会的标志之一，我们……就像抱怨天气一样。事实上，你抱怨税收实际上意味着你对税收感到满意，这有点违反直觉，或者还不错。你只是作为系统的一部分来抱怨。无论如何，但是为什么呢？为什么，为什么效果这么好？为什么大家都和睦相处——

Anthony Kaldellis 03:28:33

英文原文：Oh, no, they

中文译文：哦，不，他们

Lex Fridman 03:28:33

英文原文：… feel represented? No, not get along. Not in a, in a silly way. I mean, sufficiently to where they wouldn’t… Warlords wouldn’t rise and break apart the system and- … or if there was those kinds of forces, they would come back together. Like, why is this such a great self-healing system?

中文译文：……感觉有代表性吗？不，不能相处。不是以某种方式，以一种愚蠢的方式。我的意思是，足以达到他们不会的程度……军阀不会崛起并分裂系统，并且……或者如果存在那种力量，他们会重新聚集在一起。比如，为什么这是一个如此出色的自我修复系统？

Anthony Kaldellis 03:28:51

英文原文：So you’re exactly right. So sufficient is the key word. We don’t want to idealize this, right? These aren’t, like, they’re not just dancing in the streets, holding hands and then direct… It’s so– Even when it comes to the tax system, they are complaining all the time. Of course, they’re doing so because they know that complaining gets you things.

中文译文：所以你是完全正确的。足够是关键词。我们不想将其理想化，对吧？他们不是，就像，他们不只是在街上跳舞，手牵着手，然后指挥……是这样的——即使涉及到税收制度，他们也一直在抱怨。当然，他们这样做是因为他们知道抱怨会给你带来好处。

Anthony Kaldellis 03:29:08

英文原文：There’s no disincentive to complaining. You might not get what you want, or you might get it, but you know, no harm will come to you. So they’re complaining all the time. They have all of these civil wars. They’re like, “Okay.” So I think I would give you a two-part answer, so really quickly, as to why this held together so well. First is that an extraordinary effort was made by the authorities to persuade their subjects that they were ruling on their behalf, and I think, for the most part, actually tended to do so. And the second is that it had a very tightly unified identity as Roman and as Orthodox. In other words, for the most, most time, they knew that they were surrounded by enemies who were not those things.

中文译文：抱怨没有任何抑制作用。你可能得不到你想要的东西，或者你可能得到它，但你知道，不会对你造成任何伤害。所以他们一直在抱怨。他们经历了所有这些内战。他们的反应是：“好吧。”所以我想我会很快地给你一个由两部分组成的答案，解释为什么这一切如此紧密地结合在一起。首先，当局做出了非凡的努力来说服他们的臣民，他们是在代表他们进行统治，我认为，在大多数情况下，他们实际上倾向于这样做。第二，它作为罗马人和东正教有着非常紧密统一的身份。换句话说，在大多数时候，他们知道自己周围的敌人并不是那些东西。

Anthony Kaldellis 03:29:58

英文原文：And they did not want to live under the power of non-Romans and non-Christian people. And so those two factors combined, I think, gave everybody reason to hold it together. The alternatives were worse.

中文译文：他们不想生活在非罗马人和非基督徒的权力之下。因此，我认为，这两个因素结合起来，给了每个人坚持下去的理由。其他选择更糟糕。

[210:00]

Lex Fridman 03:30:13

英文原文：Yeah. I mean, that’s a really brilliant summary, and I think we should mention that both the rhetoric and the action are important. I think you’ve articulated that rhetoric is really powerful, like stating over and over and over- … that you represent the people, that you’re acting on behalf of the people and doing the action. But it’s not enough to actually do the action. You would think that’s all Machiavelli says, that’s the only thing that matters. But no.

中文译文：是的。我的意思是，这是一个非常精彩的总结，我认为我们应该提到，言论和行动都很重要。我认为你已经清楚地表达了言论的力量，就像一遍又一遍地陈述……你代表人民，你代表人民行事并采取行动。但这还不足以真正采取行动。你可能会认为这就是马基雅维利所说的一切，这是唯一重要的事情。但没有。

Anthony Kaldellis 03:30:37

英文原文：No.

中文译文：不。

Lex Fridman 03:30:37

英文原文：It’s the rhetoric actually has a lot of power- … because it is a uniting idea- … an ideal that propagates through time, and it pacifies you. It makes you, it puts you at peace. Rhetoric is important.

中文译文：这种修辞实际上具有很大的力量——……因为它是一个团结的想法——……一个随着时间传播的理想，它可以安抚你。它让你，它让你平静。修辞很重要。

Anthony Kaldellis 03:30:50

英文原文：I’ll give you an example. As an academic administrator, right? I mean, I was chair of department for years and years. There’s a difference between a dean who says, “Sorry, bad budget situation. We’re just gonna have to cut your programs,” on the one hand, and a dean who says, “I am fully on board with what you’re trying to accomplish with these programs. I am a defender of the humanities. Unfortunately, we have this budget situation, and we’re gonna have to cut some of the programs. But I assure you, the moment I’m in this with you together- … the moment we find the funds, we will restore them.” Those two just rhetorical strategies, they’re aiming at the same practical outcome, will produce very different levels of compliance- … right, and consensus.

中文译文：我给你举个例子。作为一名学术管理者，对吗？我的意思是，我担任系主任很多年了。一方面，一位院长说：“对不起，糟糕的预算情况。我们不得不削减你们的项目。”另一位院长则说：“我完全同意你们想要通过这些项目实现的目标。我是人文学科的捍卫者。不幸的是，我们面临这样的预算情况，我们将不得不削减一些项目。但我向你保证，当我和你们在一起的那一刻……当我们找到资金的那一刻，我们将恢复它们。”这两种只是口头上的策略，它们的目标是相同的实际结果，将产生截然不同的合规程度——……正确和共识。

Lex Fridman 03:31:47

英文原文：And I should say that there’s subtlety there. The best rhetoric in that context, and maybe in the East Roman Empire, is you also have to believe it.

中文译文：我应该说这里面有微妙之处。在这种情况下，也许在东罗马帝国，最好的说辞是你也必须相信它。

Anthony Kaldellis 03:31:57

英文原文：Yes. It has to be credible. You can’t just say it and then not do it.

中文译文：是的。它必须是可信的。你不能只说而不做。

Lex Fridman 03:32:00

英文原文：But one of the things I’ve learned about humans, just having doing this little podcast, is that… People could– Like, the best way to say a thing, a powerful thing, is to really believe it. And so, like, this is clearly one of the things that made the Roman Empire work, is doing the action is the best way to make the rhetoric powerful and effective.

中文译文：但我通过做这个小播客了解到的关于人类的一件事是……人们可以——就像，说一件事、一件强大的事情的最好方式就是真正相信它。因此，这显然是罗马帝国得以运转的原因之一，采取行动是使言辞强大而有效的最佳方式。

Anthony Kaldellis 03:32:26

英文原文：Yeah. This is sort of what Aristotle says about tyrants. In The Politics, Aristotle’s giving essentially advice to tyrants on how to protect themselves because tyrants are usually hated and are killed in coups, right? And he says, “Well, how are– You know, essentially, how do you manage to secure yourself when you’re a tyrant?” Well, you know, you can start by maybe, you know, obeying the laws or making sure that your subjects obey the laws and, you know, maybe work for the interests of yourself. Essentially, he’s telling them to kind of become benevolent kings. And the best way to persuade your subjects that you’re legitimate benevolent kings is to be that.

中文译文：是的。这有点像亚里士多德所说的暴君。在《政治学》中，亚里士多德本质上是向暴君提供如何保护自己的建议，因为暴君通常会被人憎恨并在政变中被杀，对吗？他说，“嗯，怎么样——你知道，本质上，当你是一个暴君时，你如何设法保护自己？”嗯，你知道，你可以从遵守法律或确保你的臣民遵守法律开始，你知道，也许可以为你自己的利益而工作。本质上，他是在告诉他们成为仁慈的国王。要让你的臣民相信你是合法的仁慈国王，最好的方法就是做到这一点。

Lessons from history

Lex Fridman 03:33:08

英文原文：So what, from all of this, from this 2,200-year history of the Roman Empire, what lessons can we draw for modern times? Now we’re sitting in America, this young empire. I know we’re not calling it an empire, but, you know.

中文译文：那么，从这一切，从罗马帝国 2200 年的历史中，我们可以为现代吸取哪些教训呢？现在我们坐在美国，这个年轻的帝国。我知道我们不会称其为帝国，但是，你知道。

Anthony Kaldellis 03:33:26

英文原文：Lots of people are calling it an empire. I thought it was sort of taboo. Yeah, in the 20th century, it was like, “Is America an empire now?” But like, I think since the Iraq War, like since 2003, I’ve seen at least very casual uses of America and empire in the same sentence without any kind of hand-wringing.

中文译文：很多人称其为帝国。我认为这是一种禁忌。是的，在 20 世纪，就像是，“美国现在是一个帝国了吗？”但是，我认为自伊拉克战争以来，就像自 2003 年以来，我至少看到人们在同一个句子中非常随意地使用美国和帝国，而没有任何令人不安的情况。

Lex Fridman 03:33:46

英文原文：Is it ever called that in an academic setting?

中文译文：在学术环境中曾经这样称呼过吗？

Anthony Kaldellis 03:33:49

英文原文：Yes.

中文译文：是的。

Lex Fridman 03:33:49

英文原文：I mean, it’s technically, I guess you could say- … given, given the expanse of the military bases and the military might and the way that represents itself in the geopolitical context.

中文译文：我的意思是，从技术上讲，我想你可以说——……鉴于军事基地的广阔和军事力量以及在地缘政治背景下代表自己的方式。

Anthony Kaldellis 03:34:02

英文原文：There are books published all the time that unironically discuss America as an empire in various ways. Yeah, no.

中文译文：一直有出版的书籍以各种方式讽刺地讨论美国作为一个帝国。是的，不。

Lex Fridman 03:34:09

英文原文：By the way, both positive and negative. So when you’re saying a positive thing about America, calling it an empire, and when you’re saying it to criticize America, you call it an empire. Yeah, you’re right.

中文译文：顺便说一下，积极和消极。因此，当你说美国的积极一面时，称其为帝国；当你批评美国时，称其为帝国。是的，你说得对。

Anthony Kaldellis 03:34:18

英文原文：Yeah. I mean, most academic books aren’t trying to do, like, either. They’re just trying to analyze a situation.

中文译文：是的。我的意思是，大多数学术书籍也不想这样做。他们只是想分析情况。

Lex Fridman 03:34:24

英文原文：What lessons about representing the people, about flourishing, about stability can we draw?

中文译文：关于代表人民、关于繁荣、关于稳定，我们可以吸取哪些教训？

Anthony Kaldellis 03:34:34

英文原文：I will say that, just drawing on what we were talking about a moment ago, that investing in institutions that work for the majority of your subjects, even if indirectly—like they have to pay a cost for them, but you have to explain to them why they’re paying that cost—is to the benefit of the ruling classes as well. Because you’re, you’re– ideally, you’re thinking about long-term success and not just your own short-term, you know, gain. And I think that’s what this society tends to do well. You know, the Romans generally, you know how they built roads for the centuries and the millennia. They built institutions too. You know, one of the institutions they built was, like, the Christian Church. Like, they build things to last.

中文译文：我想说的是，借用我们刚才讨论的内容，投资于为大多数臣民服务的机构，即使是间接的——就像他们必须为这些机构付出成本，但你必须向他们解释为什么他们要付出这种成本——也有利于统治阶级。因为你，你——理想情况下，你考虑的是长期的成功，而不仅仅是你自己的短期收益。我认为这就是这个社会往往做得很好的事情。你知道，一般来说，罗马人，你知道他们几个世纪、几千年来是如何修建道路的。他们也建立了机构。你知道，他们建立的机构之一就是基督教会。就像，他们打造的东西经久耐用。

Anthony Kaldellis 03:35:22

英文原文：And I think that’s a, that’s a good lesson beyond even the roads. I think institutions that explain, you know, to people why they exist is… Yeah, I think we could we could use some of that.

中文译文：我认为这是一个很好的教训，甚至超越了道路。我认为向人们解释其存在原因的机构是……是的，我认为我们可以利用其中的一些。

Lex Fridman 03:35:37

英文原文：And also the first point you made about the East Roman Empire. I think you’ve said that US foreign policy sometimes has a, quite a large gap between the rhetoric and, in modern times, the rhetoric and the action.

中文译文：还有你提到的关于东罗马帝国的第一点。我想你说过，美国的外交政策有时在言辞和现代的言辞和行动之间存在着相当大的差距。

Anthony Kaldellis 03:35:50

英文原文：Oh, yeah. Yeah.

中文译文：哦，是的。是的。

Lex Fridman 03:35:51

英文原文：And so that’s to the Machiavelli’s point that we want to maybe narrow that gap for a successful empire, for a successful nation. The rhetoric has to match the action.

中文译文：因此，这就是马基雅维利的观点，我们希望缩小差距，打造一个成功的帝国、一个成功的国家。言辞必须与行动相匹配。

Anthony Kaldellis 03:36:03

英文原文：Yes.

中文译文：是的。

Lex Fridman 03:36:03

英文原文：And it doesn’t quite, for some of the foreign policy engagements in the world.

中文译文：对于世界上的一些外交政策活动而言，情况并非如此。

Anthony Kaldellis 03:36:10

英文原文：So in the context of the society I study, let’s say the army is the single largest expense, is doing pretty much what the emperors say that it’s doing, which is protecting its subjects. That’s actually what it’s doing most of the time. Not all the time. So, for example, emperors will sometimes take the armies out on a raid or an expedition, you know, crack some skulls, gather some plunder, come back, and this is done to glorify the emperor. Like, yeah. Yeah, yeah, this does happen. But for the most part, they’re doing that, not much else. And actually, in pre-modern context, it’s very difficult to operate like, you know, shadow foreign policies and things like this. Like, it’s just not part of the-

中文译文：因此，在我研究的社会背景下，假设军队是最大的单一开支，它所做的事情几乎就是皇帝所说的，即保护其臣民。这实际上就是它大部分时间所做的事情。并非一直如此。例如，皇帝有时会率领军队出征或远征，你知道，打碎一些头骨，收集一些战利品，然后回来，这样做是为了荣耀皇帝。就像，是的。是的，是的，这确实发生了。但在大多数情况下，他们只是这样做，而不是做其他事情。事实上，在前现代背景下，很难像影子外交政策之类的事情那样运作。就像，它只是不属于-

Anthony Kaldellis 03:36:53

英文原文：… It’s not, not, not in the cards. But America in particular has such a history of proclaiming the loftiest goals. It’s just, sometimes just, you know, breathtakingly implausible.

中文译文：……这不是、不是、不可能。但美国尤其有着宣扬最崇高目标的历史。你知道，有时这只是令人难以置信的难以置信。

Lex Fridman 03:37:11

英文原文：Plus the incredible engineering behind the military industrial complex, so America’s very good at creating- … to the flamethrowers.

中文译文：再加上军事工业综合体背后令人难以置信的工程技术，所以美国非常擅长创造……火焰喷射器。

Anthony Kaldellis 03:37:19

英文原文：Yes.

中文译文：是的。

Lex Fridman 03:37:20

英文原文：The, the technologies- … of war, and so the lofty goals combined with just a lot of profit that could be made on- … the technologies of war creates a very difficult situation to navigate, where the gap naturally widens.

中文译文：战争技术，以及因此崇高的目标与可以通过战争技术赚取的大量利润相结合，造成了一个非常难以驾驭的局面，差距自然会扩大。

Anthony Kaldellis 03:37:34

英文原文：Yeah. I don’t think most of the world even believes, you know, what American leaders say their goals are, especially when it comes to, like, war. Like spreading democracy? No, really? I remember when they were trying to convince me, us, that the invasion of Afghanistan was a feminist war.

中文译文：是的。我认为世界上大多数人都不相信美国领导人所说的他们的目标，尤其是在战争等方面。喜欢传播民主吗？不，真的吗？我记得当他们试图说服我，我们，入侵阿富汗是一场女权主义战争时。

Lex Fridman 03:37:57

英文原文：Oh, that was a thing, huh?

中文译文：哦，那是一件事，是吧？

Anthony Kaldellis 03:37:58

英文原文：Oh, yes. They were to liberate the women from the burqas or whatever, and, like, the news was just flooded with, like, how terrible women have it in Afghanistan. It’s like, you’re really trying to persuade me that that’s why you’re sending armed for- like… Anyway.

中文译文：哦是的。他们要把妇女从罩袍或其他什么东西中解放出来，就像新闻一样，阿富汗妇女的处境有多糟糕。就好像，你真的想说服我，这就是你派出武装去……无论如何。

Lex Fridman 03:38:13

英文原文：I think there’s a lot, a lot of wake-up calls about the war in Afghanistan and Iraq, where people realized that there is that gap between the rhetoric and the action. And I mean, that’s how, because of a lot of people waking up to that, they create pressure on the government to close that gap. And that’s- … how we kind of navigate this- … complicated world, but it’s a costly one. I mean, these, these were extremely costly wars- … on every front, on every measure.

中文译文：我认为关于阿富汗和伊拉克战争有很多很多的警钟，人们意识到言论和行动之间存在差距。我的意思是，这就是为什么，因为很多人意识到了这一点，他们向政府施加压力，要求缩小这一差距。这就是……我们如何驾驭这个……复杂的世界，但这是一个代价高昂的世界。我的意思是，这些，这些都是代价极其高昂的战争——……在每条战线上，在每一个方面。

Anthony Kaldellis 03:38:42

英文原文：Yep, but the same lesson was learned in, like, the Vietnam War, and that was such a disaster that essentially they had to switch to– to abandon the conscript army, switch to a professional army. And, like, it took them so long to be able to, like, wage, you know, these empire wars again because of the sheer damage that the Vietnam War did to the credibility of the military leadership in the country, right? This never happens in, like, this doesn’t happen in, in Constantinople. I can lose a– You can be criticized for losing a war. That’s, that’s one thing, right? But that you’re using the army to do some, like… You know. No.

中文译文：是的，但是在越南战争中也吸取了同样的教训，那是一场灾难，他们基本上不得不放弃义务兵，转而组建职业军队。而且，他们花了很长时间才能够再次发动这些帝国战争，因为越南战争对该国军事领导层的信誉造成了巨大损害，对吗？这永远不会发生在，就像，这不会发生在，君士坦丁堡。我可能会输掉一场——你可能会因输掉一场战争而受到批评。那是，那是一回事，对吧？但你正在利用军队做一些事情，比如……你知道。不。

Lex Fridman 03:39:23

英文原文：Some of this does have to do with the functioning of how democracy works, the temporary nature of the leaderships, and that they’re very- … short-sighted because of the nature of the elected position or the executive.

中文译文：其中一些确实与民主的运作方式、领导层的临时性质有关，而且由于民选职位或行政人员的性质，他们非常……短视。

Anthony Kaldellis 03:39:39

英文原文：Executive.

中文译文：管理人员。

Lex Fridman 03:39:40

英文原文：I mean, that’s what we’re trying to figure out as a human civilization, how to do this for, in this particular case, the democracy thing.

中文译文：我的意思是，这就是我们作为人类文明试图弄清楚的问题，在这种特殊情况下，如何实现民主。

Anthony Kaldellis 03:39:47

英文原文：There’s no right answer, and by the way, I don’t wanna be ruled by kings or monarchs or emperors either. So it’s like I wouldn’t necessarily support that. I’m, I’m, I’m not advocating here for anything. I’m just trying to explain. But you’re exactly right. You know, we, we want democracy. We want leaders whom we can eject every four or five years- … which includes sometimes their, their, you know, teams of experts and policy designers and whatever, and that comes at a cost too.

中文译文：没有正确的答案，顺便说一句，我也不想被国王、君主或皇帝统治。所以我不一定会支持这一点。我，我，我不是在这里提倡任何事情。我只是想解释一下。但你是完全正确的。你知道，我们，我们想要民主。我们想要每四五年就可以驱逐的领导人——……有时包括他们的，他们的，你知道的，专家团队和政策设计者等等，这也是有代价的。

[220:00]

Lex Fridman 03:40:14

英文原文：So you, you said that, you know, the Roman Empire, maybe ancient Greece, maybe the societies before that, and now societies after that, the society we live in are very different. And so applying the lessons of history, you have to be careful doing so. But are there things that are the same with us humans? So of everything you’ve studied across hundreds of years and centuries, are there aspects of human nature that kind of persist?

中文译文：所以你,你说,你知道,罗马帝国,可能是古希腊,可能是之前的社会,现在之后的社会,我们生活的社会是非常不同的。因此，应用历史的教训，你必须小心行事。但有没有和我们人类一样的事情呢？那么，在您数百年来研究的所有内容中，人性的某些方面是否仍然存在？

Anthony Kaldellis 03:40:46

英文原文：So look, intellectually, I have gone through periods when, like when I was a grad student, this was kind of when postmodernism, what we might call loosely, was kind of alive and well and— had not yet been kicked in the pants.

中文译文：所以，从理智上看，我经历过这样的时期，比如当我还是一名研究生时，后现代主义，我们可以宽松地称之为，有点生机勃勃，而且还没有被踢到裤子里。

Anthony Kaldellis 03:41:05

英文原文：It was very common to find colleagues who did not believe that there was such a thing as, let’s say, human nature. In other words, that, let’s say, the parameters of human psychology are, you know, yes, there’s considerable variation, but they’re within a certain set of norms. Like it’s not— we’re, we’re not gonna behave like different species. And they did not believe that there was such a thing. In other words, that all of human history is essentially a series of incommensurate slices of difference, right? That you just couldn’t go from one to the next. And I think it’s a very problematic view for all kinds of reasons, like how small do you slice these slices? I mean, it… And no, I’m with Thucydides on this one—

中文译文：很常见的是，同事们不相信存在人性之类的东西。换句话说，人类心理的参数是，你知道，是的，存在很大的差异，但它们在一组特定的规范内。好像不是——我们是，我们不会表现得像不同的物种。他们不相信有这样的事情。换句话说，整个人类历史本质上是一系列不相称的差异片段，对吧？你无法从一个转到下一个。我认为出于各种原因，这是一个非常有问题的观点，比如你将这些切片切成多小？我的意思是，它……不，我在这个问题上支持修昔底德——

Anthony Kaldellis 03:41:53

英文原文：… who says that, you know, more or less human beings are gonna, more or less, they’re going to act— right? They love, and they hate, and they have ambitions, and they’re incompetent, and, you know, you find the whole range of, you know, the whole gamut of diversity— … Pretty much in every, in any group of about 20 or 30 people, you’re gonna find the same kinds of types. Now, culture then comes in and, you know, tweaks things in all kinds of weird ways, and that’s, as a historian, what I like to study. I like just how the culture will modify, will set the dials, right? But that the dials go from one to 10, most people— … it’s like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I think so.

中文译文：……谁说，你知道，人类或多或少会采取行动——对吧？他们爱，他们恨，他们有野心，他们无能，而且，你知道，你会发现各种各样的，你知道的，整个多样性……几乎在每个人中，在任何大约 20 或 30 人的群体中，你都会发现相同类型的人。现在，文化进来了，你知道，它以各种奇怪的方式调整事物，这就是作为一名历史学家我喜欢研究的内容。我喜欢文化将如何改变，将如何调整，对吗？但是，大多数人的刻度盘都是从 1 到 10……就像，是啊，是啊，是啊，我想是这样。

Lex Fridman 03:42:31

英文原文：But every once in a while, there’ll be a few folks who come along, whether it’s Steve Jobs with a turtleneck or some guy with a weird mustache or with a funny hat, and those can turn the tides of history.

中文译文：但每隔一段时间，就会有一些人出现，无论是穿着高领毛衣的史蒂夫·乔布斯，还是留着奇怪胡子或戴着滑稽帽子的人，这些人都可以扭转历史的潮流。

Anthony Kaldellis 03:42:47

英文原文：I think so. Occasionally, yes.

中文译文：我想是的。偶尔，是的。

Lex Fridman 03:42:49

英文原文：But they’re just ultra skilled at the right time— … at the right moment.

中文译文：但他们只是在正确的时间——……在正确的时刻表现得非常熟练。

Anthony Kaldellis 03:42:54

英文原文：Oh, I believe that too. Oh, yeah. In other words, I don’t– I also don’t think that cultural systems or ideologies are so effectively totalitarian that they sort of colonize the mind of every person. And so everyone in a culture is just like a clone. No, you, you encounter this sometimes in, in historical scholarship. And, no, I think people can sometimes just think for themselves, or they can think outside the box, and they can do all kinds of things. And I always wanna keep my mind open to that possibility when I’m encountering historical agents. Yeah.

中文译文：哦，我也相信。哦，是的。换句话说，我不——我也不认为文化体系或意识形态是如此有效的极权主义，以至于它们在某种程度上殖民了每个人的思想。因此，某种文化中的每个人都像一个克隆人。不，你，你有时会在历史学术中遇到这种情况。而且，不，我认为人们有时可以独立思考，或者他们可以跳出框框思考，他们可以做各种各样的事情。当我遇到历史特工时，我总是想对这种可能性保持开放的态度。是的。

Lex Fridman 03:43:26

英文原文：So just because you’ve seen this grand history, I apologize for the ridiculous question, but if we look at the entirety of Earth, and we fast-forward a million years from now—

中文译文：所以，仅仅因为你已经看到了这段伟大的历史，我对这个荒谬的问题表示歉意，但如果我们看看整个地球，然后我们快进一百万年后——

Anthony Kaldellis 03:43:39

英文原文：Oof

中文译文：钱币

Lex Fridman 03:43:40

英文原文：… and the, and the history of life on Earth is written, do you think we’re at the very beginning of human history? Or are we in the middle, or are we close to the end?

中文译文：……地球上生命的历史已经写好了，你认为我们正处于人类历史的开端吗？或者我们正处于中间，还是接近终点？

Anthony Kaldellis 03:43:54

英文原文：A million years from now. I mean, I can’t project or predict anything like a year from now. And I’ve become actually increasingly skeptical that I can do so at least. However, so I don’t know about beginning, middle, and end. It’s easier to think in terms of like, like numbered phases. Like significantly different phases of human history. And I would say we’re probably in the third. I think there’ve only been three phases. The first one being sort of hunter-gatherer period, which- … that lasted for the majority of human history so far. Right? Then there’s the agricultural revolution, basically. And this is when you start to produce surpluses that create more complex societies. And we’re now living through a technological– first industrial, now, you know-

中文译文：一百万年后。我的意思是，我无法预测或预测一年后的事情。事实上，我越来越怀疑自己至少能做到这一点。然而，所以我不知道开始、中间和结束。用类似编号的阶段来思考会更容易。就像人类历史的显着不同阶段一样。我想说我们可能排在第三位。我认为只有三个阶段。第一个时期是狩猎采集时期，这个时期……迄今为止，持续了人类历史的大部分时间。正确的？然后基本上就是农业革命。这就是当你开始产生盈余并创造出更加复杂的社会的时候。我们现在生活在一个技术第一的工业时代，现在，你知道的——

Lex Fridman 03:44:47

英文原文：Yeah. You can throw it all in the same bucket

中文译文：是的。你可以把它们全部扔进同一个桶里

Anthony Kaldellis 03:44:48

英文原文：… all kinds of tech-

中文译文：......各种技术-

Lex Fridman 03:44:48

英文原文：Industrial, technological.

中文译文：工业、科技。

Anthony Kaldellis 03:44:49

英文原文：Yeah. Industrial, technological. Which is modifying the parameters of what it is that human beings can do and possibly be. And who knows where this will go. But I see these as very distinct in many ways. It’s all human beings-

中文译文：是的。工业、科技。这正在改变人类可以做什么和可能做什么的参数。谁知道这会去哪里。但我认为它们在很多方面都非常不同。都是人类——

Lex Fridman 03:45:04

英文原文：Yeah, it’s all humans.

中文译文：是的，都是人类。

Anthony Kaldellis 03:45:05

英文原文：… but, but very different contexts.

中文译文：......但是，但是非常不同的背景。

Lex Fridman 03:45:06

英文原文：But they’re almost modifying themselves. So the question is, is there a fourth? Is there going to be a f-

中文译文：但他们几乎正在改变自己。那么问题来了，还有第四个吗？会不会有一个 f-

Anthony Kaldellis 03:45:13

英文原文：Yeah, I’m pretty sure there will be.

中文译文：是的，我很确定会有。

Lex Fridman 03:45:14

英文原文：And what does that look like, and is it– When they look back at the third, would they still see us as the same as them, or would it be something completely different?

中文译文：那看起来是什么样子，是不是——当他们回头看第三个时，他们会认为我们和他们一样，还是会完全不同？

Anthony Kaldellis 03:45:28

英文原文：Oh, no. I mean, we look back at the, you know, Romans or the Greeks or, like, any period in history, and we’re like, “Yeah, no, I see what you’re doing there. You’re doing it with the, you know, the technological capabilities that you had at that time. You’re doing it with the materials that you had. But I see what you’re doing. Yeah.” You’ve got, you’ve got families, and you’ve got armies, and you’ve got, you know, you bury your dead, and you, you know…

中文译文：哦，不。我的意思是，我们回顾罗马人或希腊人，或者类似历史上的任何时期，我们会说，“是的，不，我看到你在那里做什么。你正在用你当时拥有的技术能力来做这件事。你正在用你拥有的材料做这件事。但我明白你在做什么。是的。”你有，你有家庭，你有军队，你有，你知道，你埋葬你的死者，你，你知道……

Lex Fridman 03:45:50

英文原文：Mm-hmm. But now we’re increasingly actually having the tools and technology to modify, to, like, deeply modify what it means to be human. Genetic engineering, brain-computer interfaces. As we understand the brain more, we can modify things, expand completely. Plus artificial intelligence can expand the knowledge base and the intelligence of the human mind. Unless we figure out the human mind is actually incredibly special to the degree where it’s- At least with the tools we have this century, we cannot accomplish, we cannot achieve the level-

中文译文：嗯嗯。但现在我们实际上越来越多地拥有工具和技术来修改、深度修改人类的意义。基因工程、脑机接口。当我们更多地了解大脑时，我们就可以修改事物，完全扩展。另外，人工智能可以扩展人类思维的知识库和智慧。除非我们发现人类的思维实际上非常特殊，以至于——至少用本世纪我们拥有的工具，我们无法完成，我们无法达到这样的水平——

Lex Fridman 03:46:30

英文原文：… of intelligence that– general intelligence that humans have. Or one of the things we might figure out in stage four of this long history is that the thing that makes humans special is not intelligence. It’s not any of the things we kind of value each other by. It’s actually consciousness, and consciousness is the thing that is very difficult to engineer. And so that’s the common thing from the hunter-gatherers to before the Industrial Revolution and after, is we’re still the same. We still feel like something to be alive, and that’s maybe an important component of what makes us fall in love with each other or fear each other or suffer and all the full range of the human condition, the human experience.

中文译文：……人类拥有的一般智力。或者，在这段漫长历史的第四阶段，我们可能会弄清楚的一件事是，使人类与众不同的并不是智力。这不是我们互相珍视的任何事情。它实际上是意识，而意识是非常难以设计的东西。因此，从狩猎采集者到工业革命之前和之后的共同点是，我们仍然是一样的。我们仍然感觉自己活着，这可能是让我们彼此相爱、彼此恐惧、受苦以及所有人类处境、人类经历的重要组成部分。

Lex Fridman 03:47:16

英文原文：Maybe even technology cannot, cannot replicate that, cannot modify that. Maybe that’s what we learn. Or very possibly we destroy this whole thing. ‘Cause now for the first time in human history, we have the tools-

中文译文：也许连技术都无法、无法复制、无法改变。也许这就是我们所学到的。或者很可能我们会毁掉这整件事。因为现在人类历史上第一次，我们拥有了工具——

Anthony Kaldellis 03:47:32

英文原文：Yeah, yeah, we have-

中文译文：是的，是的，我们有——

Lex Fridman 03:47:32

英文原文：… unfortunately, to destroy everything.

中文译文：……不幸的是，摧毁了一切。

Anthony Kaldellis 03:47:35

英文原文：This is all very eloquent. I mean, after so many hours of my rambling about the medieval Roman Empire, you’re– Yeah. I’m impressed.

中文译文：这一切都非常雄辩。我的意思是，在我对中世纪罗马帝国闲聊了这么多小时之后，你——是的。我印象深刻。

Lex Fridman 03:47:44

英文原文：Okay. What gives you hope about this whole thing, about the future of human civilization?

中文译文：好的。是什么让你对这整件事、对人类文明的未来充满希望？

Anthony Kaldellis 03:47:51

英文原文：Look, there are a lot of challenges, right, that we face and we talk about them a lot. As a historian, I see other periods that were far, far more difficult when people could have far more easily have given up hope, and sometimes did. But I don’t think we’re in one of those… Like, there are some major issues like the uncertain future of technologies, what they might do, exactly what you were talking about. I think they’re solvable problems to a certain degree. Like, if we can rein in some elites, a lot of these problems can be fixed, and that’s not like a super difficult… I mean, it’s difficult, but it’s not, like, impossible.

中文译文：看，我们面临着很多挑战，对吧，我们经常谈论这些挑战。作为一名历史学家，我看到其他时期的困难要大得多，当时人们可以更容易地放弃希望，有时确实如此。但我不认为我们处于其中之一……比如，有一些重大问题，比如技术的不确定的未来，它们可能会做什么，正是你所说的。我认为它们在某种程度上是可以解决的问题。就像，如果我们能够控制一些精英，很多问题都可以得到解决，这并不是一个超级困难的事情……我的意思是，这很困难，但也不是不可能。

Anthony Kaldellis 03:48:37

英文原文：Look, so I, I grew up during the Cold War. Let’s just take the ’80s, for example. And in the ’80s, like, there was a pervasive sense that nuclear war could happen at any time and just annihilate everything, and we lived under that. If you look at the popular culture of the ’80s, it’s, like, all, like, upbeat and cheerful and naive and- … like, there was just no correlation. And then you move into the ’90s, and the Cold War is over, and everyone’s all depressed. The music gets all, like, whiny, and it’s like, “What happened?” There’s just no correlation. Anyway, I just think that the, the, it’s a pervasive sense of hopelessness or, you know-

中文译文：听着，我是在冷战时期长大的。我们以 80 年代为例。在八十年代，人们普遍认为核战争随时可能发生并摧毁一切，而我们就生活在这种感觉之下。如果你看看 80 年代的流行文化，你会发现它是乐观、开朗、天真的……就像，只是没有相关性。然后你进入了 90 年代，冷战结束了，每个人都很沮丧。音乐变得像发牢骚一样，就像“发生了什么事？”只是没有相关性。无论如何，我只是认为，这是一种普遍的绝望感，或者，你知道——

Anthony Kaldellis 03:49:16

英文原文：… Despair doesn’t always match with, like, if you look at the situation objectively. I mean, yeah, it can be pretty bad. But there’s so much that’s happening that is good- … all the time, so.

中文译文：......如果你客观地看待情况，绝望并不总是匹配。我的意思是，是的，这可能会很糟糕。但有很多好事正在发生——……一直以来，所以。

Lex Fridman 03:49:32

英文原文：I think this period of human history will be– ’cause we’ve talked about the ups and downs of the Roman Empire. I think unquestionably, this period in history, the 20th, the, the late 20th century and the 21st century will be seen as the flourishing of humans. So if we actually just wake up- … it’s like what everything around us, by most measures of human flourishing- … we’re doing pretty well.

中文译文：我认为人类历史的这段时期将会——因为我们已经讨论过罗马帝国的兴衰。我认为，毫无疑问，历史上的这段时期，20 世纪，20 世纪后期和 21 世纪将被视为人类的繁荣时期。因此，如果我们真的醒来——……就像我们周围的一切一样，按照人类繁荣的大多数标准——……我们做得很好。

[230:00]

Anthony Kaldellis 03:50:01

英文原文：The amount of, like, sheer misery is probably objectively decreasing every year. Now, you know, we’re also creating problems, yes, that will cause misery down the road. Yes. But overall, I don’t see a reason to despair and not have hope.

中文译文：客观上，纯粹的痛苦的数量可能每年都在减少。现在，你知道，我们也在制造问题，是的，这会在未来造成痛苦。是的。但总的来说，我没有理由感到绝望和不抱希望。

Lex Fridman 03:50:19

英文原文：Yeah. We’re doing okay.

中文译文：是的。我们做得很好。

Anthony Kaldellis 03:50:21

英文原文：We can do better. Let’s do better. But yeah.

中文译文：我们可以做得更好。让我们做得更好。但是是的。

Lex Fridman 03:50:24

英文原文：That’s the… Let’s do better. Well, Anthony, this was an incredible conversation. Thank you for all the amazing work you do and for the whirlwind journey through such a fascinating part of human history. This was fun. Thank you for talking today.

中文译文：这就是……让我们做得更好。嗯，安东尼，这是一次令人难以置信的谈话。感谢你们所做的所有令人惊叹的工作，以及穿越人类历史如此迷人部分的旋风之旅。这很有趣。谢谢你今天的发言。

Anthony Kaldellis 03:50:43

英文原文：It was a pleasure to be here, and thank you for, not just for inviting me, I mean, this is probably the largest audience, you know, I’ve ever spoken to but also just for giving my field and this civilization that I study the opportunity to be seen and heard from more people. I think that’s very important. You’ve done a real service here, so I wanna thank you for that.

中文译文：很高兴来到这里，谢谢你们，不仅仅是邀请我，我的意思是，这可能是我交谈过的最大的观众，而且也只是让我的领域和我研究的这个文明有机会被更多的人看到和听到。我认为这非常重要。你在这里做了真正的服务，所以我要感谢你。

Lex Fridman 03:51:05

英文原文：Thank you. Thanks for listening to this conversation with Anthony Kaldellis. To support this podcast, please check out our sponsors in the description, where you can also find links to contact me, ask questions, give feedback, and so on. And now, let me leave you with some words from Benjamin Franklin. “A great empire, like a great cake, is most easily diminished at the edges.” Thank you for listening, and hope to see you next time.

中文译文：谢谢。感谢您收听与安东尼·卡德里斯的对话。为了支持这个播客，请在描述中查看我们的赞助商，您还可以在其中找到联系我、提出问题、提供反馈等的链接。现在，让我向你们传达本杰明·富兰克林的话。 “一个伟大的帝国，就像一块巨大的蛋糕，最容易在边缘被削弱。”感谢您的收听，希望下次再见。

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