Reason访谈速读：你能控制自己的心吗？
Spencer Greenberg 与 Nick Gillespie 从 CBT、REBT、社交焦虑和注意力训练谈到自助书辨伪，拆解心智控制真正可训练的部分与它的边界。
先说这期在讲什么
The Reason Interview 这期请来 Spencer Greenberg，讨论一个容易被说成鸡汤、但其实很难回答的问题：人到底能控制自己的心吗？Greenberg 和主持人 Nick Gillespie 从《The 12 Levers》谈到 Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy（REBT）、Cognitive Behavioral Therapy（CBT）、社交焦虑、遗传与化学因素、情绪、注意力训练、内在的「为什么」、斯多葛主义和自助书籍中的骗局。节目不是承诺「想开一点就能改变人生」，而是在区分哪些心理过程可以训练，哪些只是你暂时无法直接选择的反应。1
一句话结论
你对心智的控制不是「想什么就立刻想什么」，而是逐渐获得对注意力、解释方式、行为反应和环境选择的更多影响力。情绪和自动反应常常先于有意识的决定出现，但人仍可以通过认知重构、暴露练习、注意力训练和追问内在原因，改变自己下一步做什么。Greenberg 对自助方法的态度也很克制：有效技巧值得保留，夸大因果、承诺一招解决所有问题的说法则应该触发怀疑。
1. 把 100 多本自助书压缩成 12 个杠杆
Greenberg 介绍《The 12 Levers: The Complete Psychological Toolkit for Improving Your Life》时，主持人把它称作「自助书的自助书」。Greenberg 和 Jeremy Stevenson 不是再写一本人生宣言，而是阅读和整理数百本建议类书籍，把其中重复出现、相对有证据支持、可以实际操作的技巧聚合为 12 个「杠杆」。这里的杠杆不是魔法按钮，而是能够让人对行为和生活结果施加一点额外影响的训练入口。1
这个整理动作本身已经在反对一种常见的自助书写法：把一个技巧包装成全能解释，再用个人成功故事证明它有效。Greenberg 更在意技巧的适用范围、证据质量和失败条件。读者不必相信「12」这个数字本身，它的价值在于提供了一张可以检验的目录。
2. REBT：先检查信念，不急着相信情绪
REBT 是 Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy，通常译为理性情绪行为疗法。它和 CBT 一样，不把情绪简单当作敌人，也不主张靠意志力把负面想法赶走。它关注的是事件、信念、情绪和行为之间的关系：同一件事经过不同解释，可能引发不同反应；让人痛苦的往往不只是事件，还有人对事件的绝对化判断。
节目谈到一种典型的认知链条：别人没有回应消息，于是一个人把「他还没回复」迅速翻译成「他一定讨厌我」「我不值得被喜欢」，焦虑和回避随之出现。认知重构不是强行改成「所有人都喜欢我」，而是把中间那一步拿出来检查：证据是什么？还有没有别的解释？即使最坏情况成立，我下一步能做什么？这也是 CBT 的核心实践之一。节目页将 CBT 和 REBT 都列为本期讨论的主要方法。1
3. Greenberg 的社交焦虑经验：自动反应不等于命令
Greenberg 讲到自己面对社交焦虑和反射性反应的经历。他的重点不是「我靠一个技巧治好了自己」，而是说明自动反应如何在身体和注意力层面抢先发生：紧张、害怕被评价、想要逃离，往往不是经过一轮清晰推理后才出现。
这一区分很重要。一个人不能总在第一秒选择自己是否紧张，但可以逐渐选择是否把紧张当成危险信号，是否立即回避，是否在安全的范围内继续暴露。暴露的意思是有计划地接近让自己害怕的情境，让大脑重新学习「我可以承受这件事」，而不是把自己一次性扔进无法承受的场面。
节目没有把遗传倾向、脑内化学和个人训练放在互相排斥的位置。基因和身体状态会改变难度，环境和学习经历会塑造反应，练习则可能改变之后的行为路径。承认难度，不等于宣布没有行动空间；强调训练，也不等于把所有困难都归咎于个人不够努力。
4. 情绪不是敌人，但也不是事实裁判
谈到情绪和「统一的意识」时，节目反复拆开两个常被混在一起的问题：情绪是否真实，以及情绪所传达的判断是否准确。恐惧是真实发生的身体和心理体验，但「我感到危险」不自动等于「这里确实存在同等程度的危险」。悲伤是真实的，也不自动证明「我永远不会好起来」。
这不是叫人压抑感受。恰恰相反，先承认情绪，才能把它和事实判断分开。感受可以提供线索，却不应该单独承担结论。这个区分也解释了为什么注意力训练和认知重构能配合起来：前者帮助人看见思绪和感觉，后者帮助人检查其中的解释。
5. 注意力训练：控制的第一层不是想法，而是把注意力放回哪里
节目在 36 分钟左右进入 attention training。注意力训练的目标不是让大脑永远安静，也不是每次走神都算失败，而是更早发现自己已经被担忧、反刍或手机通知带走，然后把注意力重新放回正在做的事情。
这是一种很小但很实际的控制。你不能保证一个念头不出现，却可以练习减少它对接下来十分钟的占用；你不能命令自己立刻喜欢一件事，却可以先决定把手机放远、做完一小段工作，或者与一个重要的人好好谈话。节目提出的「内在为什么」技巧，也是在追问表层目标背后的真实价值：我想要升职，是因为钱、地位、自由，还是想被认可？目标背后的原因不同，下一步的选择也会不同。2
6. 斯多葛主义与政治：自我改善不能替代公共条件
Nick Gillespie 问到斯多葛主义是否正在流行，以及自我改善有没有政治含义。斯多葛主义常被简化成「控制你能控制的事」，但节目把它放回更复杂的语境：个人确实可以训练自己的判断和反应，可是住房、医疗、教育、工作制度和社会地位也会影响一个人拥有多少选择。
如果把所有问题都写成个人心态问题，自助就可能变成对结构条件的遮蔽。反过来，如果只谈结构、不谈个人行为，人也会失去改善生活中可改善部分的工具。节目没有给出一套统一政治答案，而是保留张力：自我训练可以增加行动空间，但不能把不平等的环境责任全推回个人。
7. 怎样识别自助书里的骗局
结尾的问题很直接：面对下一本自助书，什么时候应该启动 bullshit detector？Greenberg 承认自助领域里有很多真正有用的东西，也有大量夸张宣传。他尤其警惕这种叙事：作者说「我曾经和你一样糟糕」，后来靠一个技巧彻底翻身，于是读者只要照做就能解决一切。
一个技巧如果被承诺可以解释所有问题、对所有人有效、只需要很短时间，而且失败只被归因于读者没有足够相信它，基本就该降低信任。相对可靠的做法是看它解决什么具体问题，证据来自哪里，效果有多大，代价是什么，谁可能不适用。Greenberg 和 Stevenson 写《The 12 Levers》的意义，也在于把「好建议」从个人传奇中拆出来，放回可比较、可质疑的心理学工具箱。书籍信息由 Hachette 作者页和节目页共同核对。3
人物背景
Spencer Greenberg 是数学家和创业者，曾在 Columbia 工程学院和纽约大学 Courant Institute 接受教育，数学专长包括机器学习；他还参与创办过量化资产管理公司 Rebellion Research 和数学问答网站 AskAMathematician.com。4
他后来创办 ClearerThinking.org，网站提供面向决策、批判性思考、情绪和行为改变的免费工具，并持续制作以他为主持人的 Clearer Thinking 播客。这个背景解释了他为什么同时使用数学、理性思考和心理训练的语言，但也不能把他的个人经验当成临床诊断或普遍疗效证据。5
本期主持人 Nick Gillespie 是 The Reason Interview 的主持人。节目提供的章节覆盖从 00:56 的 12 个杠杆，到 50:49 的自助书辨伪；完整节目约 54 分钟。1
术语速查
| 术语 | 这期里的实际含义 |
|---|---|
| CBT | Cognitive Behavioral Therapy，认知行为疗法，常通过检查想法、情绪和行为之间的关系来改变反应模式。 |
| REBT | Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy，理性情绪行为疗法，特别强调检查把事件绝对化、灾难化的信念。 |
| Cognitive restructuring | 认知重构，把自动出现的解释写出来，检查证据和替代解释，再形成更准确的判断。 |
| Attention training | 注意力训练，练习发现走神、反刍或分心后，把注意力带回当下任务。 |
| Exposure | 暴露练习，在可承受、可重复的范围内接近害怕的情境，减少回避带来的强化。 |
| Stoicism | 斯多葛主义，节目讨论的是其对判断和反应的训练价值，以及它不能替代公共条件的边界。 |
收听建议
如果你正在寻找一套可执行的自我观察框架，可以重点听 04:38 的 REBT、30:55 的认知重构和 36:25 的注意力训练；如果你担心「自助」变成新的自责机制，不要跳过 48:14 的政治讨论和 50:49 的骗局识别。节目中的方法适合当作思考工具，不替代专业诊断或治疗。
完整逐字稿与中文对照
以下英文原文来自 SoundCloud 官方单集音频的全量 ASR。音频没有可靠的 speaker diarization，因此统一标注为「Speaker (not reliably separated)」，不根据上下文臆造主持人与嘉宾的逐段归属。时间轴每 10 分钟标注一次；每个区间先给中文对照导读，再保留该区间的完整英文 ASR 原文。2
00:00-10:00 中文对照导读
开场介绍 Spencer Greenberg、Clearer Thinking 播客和《The 12 Levers》。Greenberg 说，他和 Jeremy Stevenson 阅读了大量自助书，把其中可重复、相对有证据支持的技巧归并成 12 个杠杆。谈到 REBT 时，讨论转向「事件」和「对事件的信念」之间的差别：情绪反应很快，但人可以学习检查自己的解释。Greenberg 以社交焦虑和反射性反应为例，说明改变不是强迫自己立刻不紧张，而是减少回避，让大脑重新学习某个情境并不等于灾难。
10:00-20:00 中文对照导读
这一段继续谈自动反应、社交焦虑和改变的难度。Greenberg 区分了「我产生了一个反应」和「我必须服从这个反应」：身体紧张、害怕评价和想逃跑可能先出现，但人可以练习不把它们直接当成事实或命令。遗传倾向、神经化学和早期经历会影响一个人的起点，却不能单独推出最终行为。讨论也涉及暴露，重点是逐步接近害怕的情境，而不是靠一句积极口号强行覆盖恐惧。
20:00-30:00 中文对照导读
谈话转向心理困难的成因，以及「情绪真实」和「情绪判断准确」之间的差别。Greenberg 认为，恐惧、悲伤等感受确实发生了，但它们不必自动成为对世界的完整描述。理解情绪的来源、区分身体状态和认知解释，可以给认知重构留下空间。两人还讨论统一意识、不同心理过程如何共同出现，以及人如何在不否定感受的情况下观察它。
30:00-40:00 中文对照导读
这一段集中解释 cognitive restructuring 和 attention training。认知重构不是把负面想法改成不可信的乐观句，而是把自动解释写出来，检查证据、替代解释和最坏结果的可处理程度。注意力训练也不是让大脑永远没有杂念，而是更早发现自己已经进入反刍、担忧或分心，然后把注意力带回正在做的事。控制力首先表现为重新选择注意力去向。
40:00-50:00 中文对照导读
节目讨论「内在为什么」技巧，即连续追问一个目标背后的原因，分辨自己真正想要的是钱、自由、地位、认可还是别的价值。原因不同，行动方案也不同。随后话题进入斯多葛主义和政治：训练个人判断可以扩大行动空间，但不能把住房、医疗、教育、工作制度等公共条件造成的限制全部改写成个人心态问题。自我改善有用，却不能替代公共政策。
50:00-54:27 中文对照导读
最后，主持人请 Greenberg 说说如何识别自助书中的骗局。Greenberg 警惕「我曾经和你一样糟糕，靠一个技巧彻底翻身」的单一成功叙事，也承认自助领域确实有很多有效方法。判断一本书时，应追问它针对什么问题、证据来自哪里、效果有多大、代价是什么、失败是否被不公平地归咎于读者。节目最后介绍《The 12 Levers》和 Clearer Thinking 播客。
[00:00]
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This is The Reason
Interview with Nick
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Gillespie.My guest today is Spencer
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Greenberg,
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host of the Clearer
Thinking podcast
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and co-author of what just might be
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the last self-help
book you will ever
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need.In The 12 Levers,
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The Complete
Psychological Toolkit for
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Improving Your Life,
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Spencer and his co-author,
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Jeremy Stevenson,
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analyze hundreds of advice books,
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and distill the most evidence-based
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psychological hacks
they contain into
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a dozen techniques
or levers for self
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-improvement,
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hence the title of the book.We talk
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about how approaches like cognitive
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behavioral therapy
harness our ability
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for critical thinking,
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why learning how to
understand and focus
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your mind and feelings
are fundamental
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to real autonomy,
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and whether there's
a politics to self
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-improvement.Here is
the Reason interview
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with Spencer Greenberg.Spencer,
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thanks for talking to Reason.Thanks
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so much for having me on.All right.
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So this is kind of a self-help book
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of self-help books or a taxonomy of
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self-help books.Tell me,
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you know,
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talk about the process.What are the
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12 lovers and how did
you come to write
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a book about the
techniques that can
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help us be better
versions of ourselves?
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Yeah,so for many years,
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I've been developing
psychological tools
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for the general
public that hundreds
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of thousands of
people have used them
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on our website,
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clearthinking.org.And
throughout that,
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I'm always looking for
useful psychological
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concepts to teach
people about decision
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making,about goal setting,
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about habits.But I had this feeling
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that I kept seeing
patterns over and
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over again,
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but I couldn't quite
put my finger on
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what it was.And my co-author,
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Jeremy Stevenson,
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he's a clinical
psychologist that treats
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patients,
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and he's always
looking for tools to
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use with his
patients.And he had the
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same general sense.He
kept seeing kind
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of the same thing.Often it would be
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talked about in different
words or different
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phrases,
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but the same underlying
concept.So we
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decided to join
forces.And unfortunately,
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it took us about
five years to do the
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project.But our idea was,
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we're going to go through the whole
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genre and try to find
all of the psychological
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strategies for improving your life.
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And so we ended up
going through over
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100 self-improvement books,
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covering many of the
most popular ones.
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We went through over
20 different types
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of therapy.And every time they gave
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a method or technique
or told you to
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do anything,we extracted it,
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made this giant database
of 500 techniques.
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And then we analyze it.We say,
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what's there?
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What are the meta patterns?
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And when we went
through and categorized
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it all,much to our surprise,
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we found that we
could put it all in
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just 12 underlying
psychological strategies,
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which we call the 12 levers,
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which is also the name of the book.
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Right.And I mean,
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strategies or I
guess I was thinking
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of them as techniques.But yeah,
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you know,
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strategies and what's
different about
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this is like it's what it's actions
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that these different books say,
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OK,
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this is you can take
or this is what you
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should take.I guess
before we go into
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what some of the.Some
of those levers
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are discuss a little
bit like what was
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your favorite self-help
book that you
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read or what was
the most memorable?
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Because this is a
genre which is very
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deeply embedded in
the American culture.
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of literary tradition,things like,
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you know,
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the autobiography
of Benjamin Franklin
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is actually kind
of a self-help book
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in many ways.And
obviously your co-author
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who brings a lot of
really interesting
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kind of clinical experience,
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so it is in Australia,
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but Australia and America for these
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purposes is kind of the same place.
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These are countries
where you are more
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or less responsible
for how things turn
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out,
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or that's how we
feel anyway.But what
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were some of the
most memorable books
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that you encountered
while doing the
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research?
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So one of my favorite
self-improving
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books of all time is a classic.It's
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called Feeling Good by David Burns.
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It's quite an old
book.And it actually
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really brought the
idea of cognitive
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behavioral therapy to
the general public.
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It was kind of unknown
to the general
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public before that.And
David Burns had
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this idea of like,
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I can bring this
to the masses.These
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techniques are being
used in therapy
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and are seeing really good effect,
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but you can actually
apply them in your
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own life.And that was
really life-changing
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for me,actually,reading that book,
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because although I'm not
prone to depression,
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and the book is really
about depression,
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it has a lot of really useful tools
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that can be applied to all kinds of
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different problems.So
that was one of
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the first times I read
a self-improvement
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book.I was like,yeah,
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this is what
self-improvement should
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be.A lot of really
useful tools that
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you can just concretely
put into action.
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And he was a,
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was he an actual
student or a protege
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of Aaron Beck,
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who is kind of
considered the father
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of cognitive behavioral therapy and
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CBT,
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as well as Albert
Ellis's rational emotive
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therapy,
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or oftentimes rational
emotive behavior
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therapy.They seem to be kind of,
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in many ways,the twin stars,
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right?
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They're the Castor
and Pollux of CBT.
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book,
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but talk a bit about
what cognitive behavioral
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therapy or REBT,you know,
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what are they and why do
they seem categorically
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different than older
versions of psychodynamic
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therapy or counseling,which was,
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you know,maybe 70 years ago,
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you might go to a psychoanalyst and
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you would lay on a
couch and talk.about
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your deep latent
feel or bring to the
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surface your,you know,
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submerged feelings
about your mother,
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about your father,
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about memories that
you barely remember.
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So your history
knowledge is impressive,
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though I'm not surprised by that,
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having watched your
show before.Yeah,
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so Albert Ellis,and actually,
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as of recently,
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you could go watch
the people following
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his footsteps actually
do live therapy
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sessions in New York,
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which I've done a couple of times,
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it's very interesting.He noticed in
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his therapy sessions that often his
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patients had essentially irrational
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beliefs that were
harming them.And so
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it wasn't just that,oh,
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they have this rational fear and,
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you know,this bad
thing's happening,
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but they literally
have an irrational
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belief that they
can't let go of.And
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he started experimenting
with things
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like shocking them
by just telling them,
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you're being irrational
and just experimenting
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in different ways.But,you know,
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one of his basic
observations was if
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you could adjust these
irrational beliefs,
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it could actually
make people's lives
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better.For example,
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someone who's prone
to depression might
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feel like they're
worthless and nobody
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loves them.But
actually people do love
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them,right?
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And they are deeply unlovable,
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right?
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That's the leaf
that I'm rejected or
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a relationship
ends.And that means I
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will always,
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I am unlovable and I
will never be loved
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again.And then he,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:06:50,530):
Albert Ellis famously
would challenge
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people in therapy.In
an era when therapists
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were much more like,yes,
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tell me more.You know,
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what about your mother?
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He would just be like,
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that's insane.You're
nuts.Why are you
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thinking that?
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Yeah,
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and I think he was
trying to shock the
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patient enough to like
get them to shift.
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Although in modern
cognitive behavioral
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therapy,
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they don't do that anymore.Now they
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use much gentler approaches.So that
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was kind of controversial,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:07:18,890):
but it was kind of
onto something.And
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then Aaron Beck,
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I think had similar
observations I remember
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reading a story
about how he kind of
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one day when a patient was,
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you know,
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talking to him about their problems
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:07:29,340):
and he was starting to
use kind of psychedelic
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approaches.He was just like,
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wait,but how do you
know that's true?
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You know,
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and he just had this
realization that
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maybe the psychedelic
approaches were
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not helping this
person.Maybe he needed
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to challenge them.I think they both
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hit on similar
ideas.And that's kind
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of the C in cognitive
behavioral therapy.
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But then there's the B,
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the behavioral.And
that actually comes
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:07:49,770):
from a totally different
school of thought.
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Behaviorism has kind of been around
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in different forms for a long time.
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But Skinner is one
of the sort of big
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characters there.who did
a lot of experiments
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trying to understand
how animal behavior
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works and eventually
apply it to human
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behavior.And,you know,
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at the end of the day,
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we are animals.We're
not just animals,
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but we are animals.And
the fact that
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we are animals means
that some really
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interesting findings
in animals apply
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to us,
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such as if we keep
having the same trigger
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and then we have the same response,
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we will start having that
response automatically.
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:08:20,660):
And see,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:08:21,180):
he started studying
this and figuring
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out ways that this
could actually be
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used to help patients,
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especially with things
like severe anxiety.
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Yeah.So you guys both,
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early on in the book,
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you talk about moments
where this applied
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to your individual
lives.Could you speak
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on behalf of your
co-author and yourself
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and just say,
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what were the events
that kind of put
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:08:44,760):
you into,
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that helped you understand that I'm
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having kind of automatic responses,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:08:51,120):
like reflex responses
that I'm not thinking
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about,
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and I can actually
change that and gain
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control over that?
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Yeah,
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so my first experience
of this was reading
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:09:02,170):
about cognitive behavioral therapy,
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and they made a claim
that when you're
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really emotional,
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your thoughts get
distorted.And I thought,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:09:09,730):
I don't think so.I
think I would have
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noticed that.Like,
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I've been living in
my brain my whole
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life,right?
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:09:14,130):
So I was like,okay,
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I'm going to do an
experiment.And the
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:09:16,310):
next time I was feeling like really
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negative emotions,
I wrote down my thoughts,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:09:20,110):
and I came back to
them the next day.
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And rereading them,I was like,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:09:22,810):
holy crap,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:09:23,830):
they're right.Yeah.thoughts
were distorted,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:09:26,660):
like I didn't actually believe them
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:09:28,600):
the next day.And
that sort of opened
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:09:31,160):
the door to me and be like,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:09:32,680):
wow,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:09:33,080):
things going on in my
mind are not necessarily
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:09:34,620):
what I perceive.And
also these distorted
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:09:37,740):
thoughts may be
causing challenges for
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myself.So that was one
of my big revelations,
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not the only
one.Yeah.And what about
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:09:43,860):
Jeremy?
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:09:44,380):
He talks about in the
book about really
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not kind of measuring
up to a standard
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Australian male kind of.you know,
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typology or something like that.And
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:09:58,550):
then dealing with
that brought him to
[10:00]
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various recognitions.Yeah,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:10:01,990):
well,you know,it's history to tell,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:10:03,250):
but I'll tell a very,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:10:04,010):
very approximate version of it,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:10:05,650):
which is that I
think that he really
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:10:07,970):
was trying to get
people to like him.
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:10:10,330):
You know,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:10:10,610):
he would be in social
interactions and
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:10:12,350):
rather than acting authentically,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:10:15,190):
he would be like,you know,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:10:16,470):
and this wasn't subconscious,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:10:17,690):
but he subconsciously was like,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:10:19,150):
how do I get them to like me?
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:10:20,210):
And that was sort
of his orientation
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:10:21,410):
socially.And,you know,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:10:23,380):
I think a lot of
people are like that
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:10:24,560):
because they really
care about people
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:10:25,640):
liking them.But actually,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:10:27,620):
you end up developing
much weaker connections
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:10:29,980):
with people because
you're not really
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:10:31,060):
being yourself.Like,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:10:31,800):
they're not really
getting to know you.
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:10:33,560):
And there's a sort
of artificial reality
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:10:35,120):
to the whole thing
and a brittleness
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:10:36,500):
to the whole thing.And
also often you
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:10:39,070):
end up not with the
people you're most
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:10:40,690):
compatible with.Cause you know,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:10:41,830):
if you act truly authentically,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:10:43,250):
you find your true
people that really
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:10:45,010):
like you for who you are.So one day
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:10:47,870):
he was sort of
reading a blog and he
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:10:50,570):
just,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:10:50,950):
something about what
it said about how
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:10:54,240):
this behavior can be harmful.And it
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:10:56,380):
was exactly the
behavior he was doing.
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:10:57,920):
And it just kind of,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:10:58,340):
it shocked him.And
he described it as
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:11:00,040):
literally,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:11:00,460):
he kind of reeled back
and like stumbled.
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:11:02,060):
It was such a shock
reading this.And
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:11:04,640):
then that gave him the awareness to
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:11:06,400):
start noticing what he was doing in
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:11:08,560):
his interactions.And
as he started noticing
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:11:10,800):
it,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:11:11,140):
then that actually
gave him a path out
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:11:12,420):
to start being more
authentic.Just to
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:11:14,460):
linger a little bit
more on Ellis and
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:11:16,560):
to a certain degree Beck,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:11:17,980):
Ellis,who for reason,
a reason audience,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:11:21,860):
by the way,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:11:22,340):
might remember that
he wrote an entire
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:11:24,940):
book-length attack
on Ayn Rand in the
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:11:27,300):
late 60s,accusing...Her,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:11:30,050):
even though there are
a lot of similarities
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:11:32,730):
in the way they think
and the way that
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:11:34,590):
they behave,interact with people,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:11:36,550):
but he thought that
the way that she
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:11:38,870):
kind of conceived
of and talked about
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:11:40,870):
objectivism,her,the name for her,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:11:43,370):
the philosophy she created was very
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:11:46,750):
cult-like and it was a religion,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:11:48,750):
which is,you know,
is fighting words,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:11:50,330):
both to objectivists
as well as to Albert
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:11:53,490):
Ellis followers,but,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:11:56,580):
One of the things he
talked a lot about
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:11:58,640):
was that you should
have radical self
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:12:00,480):
-acceptance,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:12:02,200):
that that's kind
of the beginning of
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:12:05,520):
everything,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:12:06,040):
that you have to
accept as a basic truth
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:12:09,680):
or the beginning of everything,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:12:11,000):
that you are okay,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:12:12,960):
that you are a
person who has a life
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:12:16,480):
worth living,et cetera.Does that,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:12:20,150):
you know,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:12:21,390):
is that kind of the foundation upon
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:12:24,130):
which all self-help
ultimately rests
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:12:28,010):
of,you know,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:12:29,210):
recognizing that you
are OK as a person,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:12:33,630):
regardless of who
you are or what kind
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:12:35,770):
of situation you're in?
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:12:37,160):
Yeah,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:12:37,240):
there's a wonderful quote along the
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:12:39,300):
lines of,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:12:39,920):
when you finally
accept yourself for
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:12:41,760):
exactly who you are,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:12:42,540):
then you can begin
to change.And I think
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:12:45,360):
there's something to that.However,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:12:46,560):
I'm going to push
back on that and say,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:12:47,960):
no,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:12:48,380):
you don't have to
accept yourself.You
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:12:49,660):
can just start
improving.You can just
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:12:51,280):
make things
incrementally better.You
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:12:53,160):
can still think
you're a total piece
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:12:54,180):
of shit,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:12:54,660):
but you can learn to
communicate better,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:12:56,360):
to be more assertive,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:12:57,560):
to get more of what
you want in life.
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:12:59,360):
And then hopefully
you'll eventually
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:13:00,520):
not think you're a piece of shit,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:13:01,660):
right?
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:13:02,370):
Yeah.And you,I mean,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:13:03,990):
you tell a story
in the book as well
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:13:05,790):
about having a lot
of social anxiety
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:13:08,310):
and that you kind
of pushed yourself
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:13:11,050):
to overcome that in
a way that is kind
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:13:14,050):
of funny,actually.But like,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:13:15,510):
so you did not feel
comfortable engaging
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with people or
talking to people.And
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:13:20,290):
what did you do to kind of confront
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:13:22,710):
that and kind of learn
how to move through
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:13:25,730):
that?
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:13:27,570):
I'd had social
anxiety since I was a
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:13:29,070):
little child.I don't
know where it stemmed
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:13:30,730):
from.Maybe it's genetic.Who knows?
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:13:32,810):
Maybe it was an early
life experience.
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But it would especially
get triggered
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:13:36,250):
in situations where
I'd have to go up
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:13:37,950):
to a stranger and
talk to them.I would
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:13:40,310):
feel like the world was ending,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:13:41,950):
like my heart would
be pounding in my
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:13:43,410):
chest,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:13:43,790):
like I couldn't
think.And it was I was
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:13:46,660):
so would be so frightened
of those situations.
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:13:48,400):
And obviously,
it makes no sense.Like,
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it's a totally irrational.Right.But
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:13:51,640):
but it felt completely
real.And anyone
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:13:53,700):
who has a phobia knows what this is
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:13:54,940):
like.Like,you know,
you you get so afraid,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:13:57,420):
even though you even if you know,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:13:58,580):
intellectually,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:13:59,240):
that there's nothing
to really be afraid
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:14:00,240):
about.And in my early 20s,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:14:02,530):
I was like,OK,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:14:02,990):
I've got to do
something about this.
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:14:04,390):
This is ridiculous.And
I looked into
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:14:06,430):
like,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:14:06,750):
what does the evidence
say about what's
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:14:08,170):
the most effective treatment?
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:14:09,530):
And I ended up finding
a therapist who
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practices evidence-based
treatments.
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:14:13,490):
And he said,great,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:14:14,250):
I can help you.You're
not going to like
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:14:16,010):
what I'm going to tell you,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:14:16,690):
though,how to help
you.And I'm like,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:14:17,790):
well,what is it?
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:14:18,750):
He said,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:14:18,990):
you're going to go every weekend to
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:14:20,630):
a bar and you're
going to go alone and
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:14:23,130):
go up to five strangers
one at a time
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:14:24,930):
and you're going
to talk to them.And
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:14:26,980):
I was like,are you kidding me?
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:14:28,400):
There's no way I can do that.But we
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:14:30,680):
started small,right?
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:14:31,940):
And we started with
just ask them the
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:14:33,440):
time.Like that's
bearable.I would get
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:14:35,260):
really stressed doing it,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:14:36,200):
but it was bearable to ask them the
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:14:37,420):
time.And then we go
a little bit harder.
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:14:39,560):
Okay,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:14:39,720):
ask what drink
they're drinking.Just
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:14:40,880):
say,oh,what is that drink?
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:14:41,940):
It looks good,right?
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:14:43,080):
And then it escalated and escalated
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:14:45,020):
until I was challenging
myself.In the
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:14:46,840):
very end,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:14:47,420):
I would literally
go to men I didn't
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:14:50,320):
know and say,hey,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:14:51,240):
would you mind giving me a hug?
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:14:52,990):
And my brain was like,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:14:54,150):
I'm going to die.Like
my brain was like,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:14:55,490):
they're going to kill
me.They know where
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:14:56,870):
the world's going
to end.I could see
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:14:58,150):
that happening actually.But yeah,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:15:00,050):
maybe not dying.The
funny thing is that
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:15:02,270):
like none of them
had a bad reaction.
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:15:03,950):
Like at worst they would just laugh
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:15:05,310):
it off and be like,okay,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:15:06,510):
nobody here or
whatever.And like nothing
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:15:08,470):
bad happened.So.And it
just worked stupendously
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:15:11,720):
well.Like my social
anxiety just went
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:15:13,780):
down so much.I'm not going to say I
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:15:15,680):
have no social anxiety
today.I certainly
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:15:17,160):
do in some situations,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:15:18,340):
but I have so much
less.And there are
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:15:20,480):
times now when I'm
in situations where
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:15:22,760):
I think I have less
than the average
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:15:24,580):
person in that situation,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:15:25,940):
which is just kind
of shocking given
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:15:27,160):
where I started.And
before we move on,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:15:31,050):
like you mentioned,like,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:15:32,630):
I don't know if I was,you know,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:15:33,910):
maybe I was born this way or it was
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:15:35,750):
early behavior experience.You know,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:15:39,050):
how do things like
genetic predispositions
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:15:43,050):
or kind of...you know,
just existing,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:15:46,050):
I don't know if it's
like blood chemistry,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:15:47,950):
you know,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:15:49,350):
or things like
that.How does that play
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:15:51,750):
into your analysis of things?
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:15:53,290):
And then also something
like using drugs,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:15:56,670):
because I know a lot of people who,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:15:59,110):
when they have anxiety,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:16:00,190):
they take beta
blockers.So like people
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:16:01,930):
who are uncomfortable
speaking in front
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:16:04,150):
of an audience or
something like that,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:16:05,710):
or driving over bridges,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:16:07,450):
they'll take beta
blockers.And they're
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:16:09,890):
okay.Like,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:16:10,370):
how does how does
these types of things,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:16:13,110):
either the etiology of a particular
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:16:15,290):
circumstance or feeling or,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:16:17,710):
you know,a chemical fix?
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:16:20,770):
How does that fit
into what you guys
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:16:22,650):
are talking about?
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:16:23,590):
The research on genetics and things
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:16:26,990):
like mental health disorders,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:16:28,840):
It's not the sort of
thing where you're
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:16:30,400):
like,oh,if you have this one gene,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:16:31,860):
then you're depressed.If
you have this
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:16:33,020):
one gene,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:16:33,440):
you're anxious.I
think early on in the
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:16:35,520):
study of genetics,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:16:37,480):
people kind of thought
that's what we'd
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:16:38,820):
find.And you do
occasionally find that.
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:16:41,520):
There are some
disorders that are like
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:16:42,960):
that,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:16:43,560):
but most disorders
that we care about
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:16:45,260):
are not like that.And mental health
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:16:46,900):
disorders are definitely
not like that.
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:16:48,800):
And what you find
is that if you take
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:16:50,620):
someone's entire
genome And you kind
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:16:52,690):
of build a predictive
model using every
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:16:54,050):
gene.You find like
hundreds of genes
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:16:56,230):
contribute a small
amount to the predictive
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:16:58,550):
ability.And typically
you find a heritability
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:17:00,870):
of something on the
order of 40 to 60
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:17:02,550):
percent,you know,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:17:03,750):
with some mental
health disorders being
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:17:05,270):
a bit more heritable and some being
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:17:07,610):
a bit less.And that's
so hard to know,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:17:10,270):
too,right?
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:17:10,930):
Because it could be
that you're living
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:17:13,390):
in a family environment that,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:17:15,210):
you know,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:17:15,750):
is replicating.psychological
issues,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:17:18,890):
right?
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:17:19,370):
Well,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:17:19,450):
the best studies try to control for
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:17:21,030):
that.They'll look
at identical twins,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:17:24,210):
and they'll try to
compare identical
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:17:26,110):
twins to fraternal
twins.We need more
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:17:27,390):
identical twins,right?
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:17:28,930):
There just aren't that many,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:17:30,390):
but they get picked over a lot,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:17:32,150):
right?
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:17:33,130):
Oh,yeah,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:17:33,390):
identical twins are
incredibly useful
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:17:35,030):
for science.I think probably all of
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:17:38,310):
them are enrolled
in a study at this
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:17:39,510):
point because
scientists seek them out
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:17:41,850):
so badly.But yeah,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:17:42,730):
if you compare identical
twins to regular
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:17:44,370):
siblings,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:17:45,070):
you can do analyses
that try to pull
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:17:46,710):
this apart.I will say
there's a massive
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:17:49,190):
debate in the field
of genetics about
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:17:51,370):
heritability because
there's another
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:17:53,790):
way to approach this
whole thing where
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:17:55,630):
instead of looking at twins,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:17:57,830):
what you do is you try
to build a predictive
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:17:59,730):
model from the
genetics itself And you
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:18:01,870):
literally try to
predict the disorder.
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:18:04,110):
And what you find is a gap.You tend
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:18:05,710):
to find higher
heritabilities when you
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:18:07,550):
look at twin studies
and somewhat lower
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:18:09,630):
heritabilities when
you try to predict
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:18:11,090):
from the genetics
directly.And for a
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:18:13,430):
long time,people
assumed that was like,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:18:15,210):
oh,well,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:18:15,930):
we just don't have
enough genome sequenced
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:18:17,830):
and our predictive
models aren't accurate
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:18:19,290):
enough.But then as
they've gotten more
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:18:21,510):
and more sequenced
and their predictive
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:18:23,410):
models have gotten
better and better,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:18:24,590):
the gap hasn't fully closed.So this
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:18:26,410):
is literally a giant
debate in the field
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:18:28,170):
of like,what's going on there?
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:18:29,850):
Why is there still
a gap between the
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:18:30,930):
two?
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:18:31,410):
So I would say that bizarrely,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:18:32,930):
it's an unsettled
science.What about
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:18:35,610):
pills that fix things?
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:18:38,630):
Say something like
depression and the
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:18:41,850):
effectiveness of
things like SSRIs have
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:18:45,550):
really taken a
beating over the past
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:18:47,930):
couple of decades,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:18:49,110):
but also stuff like
beta blockers.Are
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:18:53,130):
there pills that fix
what ails people
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:18:57,370):
psychologically in a way that,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:19:00,310):
I don't know,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:19:00,930):
like insulin helping
a type 1 diabetic?
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:19:04,350):
Yeah.know,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:19:05,400):
processed blood sugar
or something like
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:19:07,100):
that?
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:19:07,400):
Or is it always a
mix of chemistry and
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:19:11,160):
psychology?
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:19:12,440):
So beta blockers are
interesting case
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:19:14,900):
because they don't
handle the cognitive
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:19:16,560):
effects of anxiety,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:19:18,260):
but they handle the
physiological effects
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:19:19,880):
like trembling or,you know,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:19:21,820):
sweating,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:19:22,180):
things like that.And
so they tend to
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:19:24,220):
be really useful
for people who tend
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:19:26,220):
to get a lot of those
physical effects.
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:19:28,890):
in specifically in
performance situations.
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:19:31,990):
So,you know,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:19:32,390):
actually people who
perform in front
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:19:34,110):
of the public,you know,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:19:35,630):
you'd be surprised
at how many of them
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:19:36,950):
will take a beta blocker to help,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:19:38,590):
you know,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:19:38,890):
prevent their hands
from shaking and
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:19:39,950):
so on.And I've actually
done that myself
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:19:41,390):
in the past,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:19:42,990):
like when I had to
give a TEDx talk,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:19:45,470):
and I was like in a
unusual environment
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:19:48,030):
and I was worried
about getting anxious
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:19:50,850):
during it.I took a beta blocker and
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:19:52,690):
I think it helped
in that situation.
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:19:53,990):
I think that's
great.It has a specific
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:19:56,150):
use case and I think
it could be useful
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:19:57,350):
for that.A drawback of doing things
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:19:59,870):
like that is it can
work against exposure
[20:00]
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:20:02,050):
therapy where you're
exposing yourself
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:20:03,990):
to the thing you fear
until you no longer
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:20:05,350):
fear it because it
kind of gives you
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:20:07,210):
an aid and it says,oh no,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:20:08,790):
you're only safe if
you have the beta
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:20:09,870):
blocker.So I think long-term,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:20:12,590):
if you're trying to cure anxiety,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:20:13,690):
it can actually work against it.But
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:20:15,340):
if you just have a
special situation,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:20:16,980):
you're like,oh,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:20:17,620):
there's one thing
I just really want
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:20:18,980):
to make sure I don't,you know,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:20:20,200):
my fear doesn't
spike out of control
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:20:21,560):
in a way that affects
me physically.
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:20:24,020):
Yeah,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:20:24,160):
it can be really useful.SSRIs are a
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:20:26,680):
whole giant can of worms.So there's
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:20:29,100):
SSRIs and SNRIs and
some other variants
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:20:31,700):
as well.You know,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:20:32,960):
the most common
people think about is
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:20:34,580):
like Prozac for SSRI.For SNRI,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:20:37,160):
they think about
something like Cymbalta.
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:20:39,920):
These drugs,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:20:41,300):
they certainly help some people,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:20:43,320):
and they can help
with both depression
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:20:44,760):
and anxiety.What happened,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:20:47,300):
if you look at the research,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:20:48,880):
is the early research overestimated
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:20:51,400):
the effect size of these,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:20:52,640):
so they looked more
effective than they
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:20:53,740):
were,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:20:54,320):
and underestimated side
effects.Unfortunately,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:20:57,110):
sexual side effects
are really common
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:20:59,250):
with both of them.I
don't know the exact
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:21:02,490):
numbers,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:21:02,850):
but maybe even 40%of
people are getting
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:21:04,630):
sexual side effects,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:21:05,790):
which is not great.It
can be you when
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:21:07,650):
you're depressed.This
is not exactly
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:21:09,410):
something you want
happening to you.
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:21:10,990):
However,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:21:11,490):
they really do help
some people.Even
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:21:13,790):
though the effect
size is not enormous
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:21:15,710):
on average,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:21:16,710):
what gets lost is
that People try them.
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:21:20,280):
If they don't find them effective,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:21:21,560):
they go off them.But
if they do find
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:21:22,980):
them effective,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:21:23,400):
they tend to stay
on them.So the true
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:21:25,160):
effect size for those
that stay on them
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:21:26,440):
might be something
like twice as high
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:21:28,000):
as the average effect
because a bunch
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:21:30,440):
of people just they
don't work for and
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:21:31,620):
then they go off
of them.And more to
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:21:34,180):
the point of the 12
levers and a psychological
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:21:38,000):
toolkit,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:21:38,780):
it's also clear for
some people like
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:21:41,340):
going to a doctor and saying,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:21:42,920):
I'm depressed.Right.might say,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:21:45,510):
you know,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:21:45,830):
they might prescribe
an SSRI and then
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:21:47,630):
say,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:21:47,910):
see a therapist or
recommend somebody.And
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:21:50,350):
it starts a process
by which individuals
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:21:52,810):
are kind of taking control of their
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:21:55,010):
psychology.Right.Which,again,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:21:58,110):
you may end up not
using SSRIs or doing
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:22:00,450):
this or that.But it seems,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:22:02,270):
you know,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:22:02,590):
one of the things
that I find really
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:22:03,890):
interesting and
powerful and relevant
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:22:06,410):
to,I think,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:22:07,550):
my audience is the
idea that what this.
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:22:10,200):
what your book is about and what so
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:22:11,780):
much of popular culture and popular
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:22:13,660):
psychology about is like,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:22:15,120):
how do you figure out who you are,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:22:17,960):
what you want to be
and how do you get
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:22:19,440):
there?
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:22:20,520):
And you know,with that in mind,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:22:22,260):
you know,just lever number one,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:22:24,360):
and the book is
structured in 12 chapters
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:22:27,400):
with different
levers.But you talk about
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:22:30,260):
unraveling the causes,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:22:31,680):
can you talk a bit about what's the
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:22:33,760):
starting point?
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:22:35,230):
of like when you buy
the psychological
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:22:37,870):
toolkit and you're
opening up the case
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:22:41,250):
and looking at it,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:22:42,150):
how important is
figuring out what the
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:22:43,650):
causes are?
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:22:44,560):
It sounds really obvious,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:22:45,660):
like,oh,yeah,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:22:46,380):
I understand the
cause.But the fascinating
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:22:48,500):
thing is that people
often don't understand
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:22:50,740):
their own challenges at the deepest
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:22:52,700):
levels of causality.And
a metaphor I
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:22:55,440):
like to use is imagine
your car won't
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:22:57,320):
start and you just
start fixing things
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:22:59,260):
at random.You know,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:23:00,260):
you pick fix one part,
fix another part,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:23:01,680):
fix another part.Like
it could be incredibly
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:23:03,520):
ineffective to get
the car to start.
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:23:05,800):
But if you do a
diagnostic first.Then
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:23:08,110):
you're like,oh,it's this.Boom,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:23:09,730):
you fix it.Problem solved,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:23:11,010):
right?
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:23:11,470):
So better understanding
leads to better
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:23:13,230):
solutions.And if
we think about this
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:23:15,890):
with a human example,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:23:17,250):
imagine that you
and your girlfriend
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:23:19,450):
or boyfriend are finding yourselves
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:23:20,910):
getting in arguments
a lot.And you feel
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:23:23,230):
like you understand it.You're like,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:23:24,350):
yeah,well,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:23:24,690):
she wants one thing
and I want a different
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:23:25,990):
thing.But then you think about,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:23:28,050):
well,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:23:28,430):
but there are a lot
of couples where
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:23:29,930):
one person wants one
thing and one wants
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:23:31,030):
another thing.That
doesn't really fully
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:23:32,210):
explain what's going
on.Is there a deeper
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:23:34,310):
level of causality?
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:23:35,510):
So you go one level
beneath that.And
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:23:36,730):
it's like,well,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:23:37,490):
actually what's
happening is when we
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:23:39,390):
try to have a discussion about it,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:23:40,950):
we both get angry
at each other.So we
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:23:42,970):
can't actually have a
productive discussion.
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:23:44,310):
Okay,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:23:44,550):
that's level two.But
is there another level?
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:23:46,810):
Well,level three,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:23:47,310):
why are you both getting angry?
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:23:48,990):
Is it something the
other one's saying?
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:23:50,450):
Is it some deep
underlying resentment?
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:23:52,370):
Okay,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:23:52,790):
let's go to level
four.Why do you have
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:23:54,110):
that deep underlying resentment?
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:23:55,500):
And there's actually
there's an analog
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:23:57,740):
here to the five whys,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:23:58,920):
which is a kind of
a business phrase,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:24:00,780):
which is,OK,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:24:02,100):
let's say your factory
is not as efficient
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:24:04,040):
as you want.Well,why is that?
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:24:05,960):
The first why is maybe the conveyor
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:24:07,400):
belt's not moving
as fast as you want.
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:24:08,940):
OK,but why is that?
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:24:10,160):
Second,why?
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:24:10,780):
Well,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:24:11,140):
maybe it's because
it has to be stopped
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:24:12,400):
periodically.OK,why is that?
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:24:14,000):
And so on.So I actually
think it's really
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:24:16,740):
powerful to try to dig deeper,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:24:18,460):
try to understand
your challenges at
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:24:20,280):
a deeper level of
causality.And then
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:24:21,760):
you can often fix
them more effectively.
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:24:23,430):
Is psychology becoming
more like engineering?
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:24:26,550):
You know,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:24:27,230):
because almost in the
way you're talking
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:24:28,690):
about it and say,okay,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:24:29,470):
let's shift from
talking about human
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:24:31,230):
beings to a car or
to a conveyor belt.
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:24:33,670):
I mean,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:24:34,330):
and I'm not saying
this in a tendentious
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:24:37,210):
way,but...I mean,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:24:38,770):
that's kind of what we're,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:24:40,250):
you know,this is a lot,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:24:41,890):
a big part of modernity,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:24:43,370):
right?
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:24:43,710):
That we start to
understand our minds
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:24:46,510):
as rule-bound systems.And
they're incredibly
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:24:50,310):
complex,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:24:51,350):
but they're models
or they're computer
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:24:53,670):
systems or whatever.But
is that part
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:24:57,210):
of what we're doing here?
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:24:58,150):
I guess even talking
about a psychological
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:25:00,070):
toolkit,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:25:00,950):
we're already deep
in a mechanistic kind
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:25:04,250):
of worldview,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:25:05,050):
if not necessarily a reductive one.
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:25:08,820):
I like to bounce between metaphors,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:25:10,520):
and I think there's
different metaphors
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:25:11,780):
useful for different
parts of understanding
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:25:13,900):
yourself.I think a
kind of mechanistic
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:25:16,440):
one is useful for
understanding like,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:25:17,800):
hey,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:25:18,160):
there's a situation
that's not going the
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:25:19,360):
way I want,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:25:20,820):
let me break down
that situation and
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:25:22,140):
try to understand its
different elements.
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:25:24,880):
But I don't think that
it's always useful.
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:25:27,040):
But another metaphor,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:25:27,980):
I don't know whether
you kind of call
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:25:28,880):
this mechanistic or not,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:25:30,320):
a metaphor I like
to use for emotions
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:25:32,180):
is a smoke detector.Um,because I,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:25:35,720):
and I think it's a
really useful metaphor,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:25:37,140):
you know,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:25:37,780):
just the way that if
your smoke detector
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:25:39,220):
goes off and there's a fire,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:25:40,500):
that's really,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:25:41,300):
really useful.It
gives you important
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:25:43,060):
information.But if
your smoke detector
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:25:44,960):
goes off when you're
cooking every day,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:25:46,980):
that's really unuseful
and it's actually
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:25:49,420):
harmful.And actually
you're going to
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:25:50,500):
learn to ignore it.And similarly,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:25:52,940):
you can think of
emotions as the smoke.
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:25:56,220):
Sorry,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:25:56,500):
sorry.You can think
of emotions as the
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:25:58,320):
signal that the smoke
detector is putting
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:26:00,800):
out.And they're providing
you information.
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:26:03,580):
Your emotions are
information.And then
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:26:05,980):
sometimes they go hairwire and they
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:26:07,740):
start signaling all the time and it
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:26:09,880):
stops being
useful.Right.And I mean,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:26:11,770):
I know for myself
to the extent that
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:26:14,310):
I have had any kind
of psychological
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:26:15,610):
growth over the
course of my life.And
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:26:18,110):
I am,you know,Irish
on my father's side,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:26:20,930):
Italian on my mother's
side.So that's
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:26:22,550):
like there's a lot
of emotion embedded
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:26:25,430):
right in whatever,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:26:27,070):
whether it's genetics or culture,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:26:28,550):
but like.You know,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:26:29,750):
when you have a strong emotion,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:26:31,890):
I always used to think,OK,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:26:33,610):
well,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:26:33,790):
that is the authentic me.Right.Like
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:26:35,970):
I'm responding.I
would not I would not
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:26:38,610):
separate myself from
the emotion.Whereas
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:26:40,730):
kind of what you're
talking about is
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:26:42,250):
the emotion is not
necessarily the deep
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:26:45,010):
you,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:26:45,490):
but it's telling you
something is going
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:26:48,450):
on here that is,you know,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:26:50,310):
figuratively triggering
you.And so it's
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:26:53,430):
a good idea to be
able to step out of
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:26:55,570):
that situation and say,okay,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:26:57,590):
what's going on here?
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:26:59,130):
Is there an actual
fire or did I just
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:27:01,810):
like,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:27:02,190):
is the fish burning
in the pan on the
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:27:04,230):
stove and setting off
the smoke detector?
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:27:06,170):
I think it's useful
to understand there
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:27:08,510):
is no deep you.There's
not like the,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:27:10,250):
you know,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:27:10,570):
people want to talk
like the homunculus
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:27:12,670):
is inside you.And
obviously you don't
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:27:14,650):
mean that,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:27:15,030):
but I think your emotions are you,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:27:17,230):
but there's so much more to you,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:27:18,470):
right?
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:27:18,830):
Like your emotions are you,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:27:20,610):
your reasoning is you.uh,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:27:22,640):
you know,your reactions are you,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:27:23,980):
your triggers are,you know,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:27:25,000):
it's all you.And
this part of you can
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:27:27,200):
be acting against
other parts of you.
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:27:29,060):
Like your,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:27:29,800):
if your emotions are triggering all
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:27:31,520):
the time in innocuous situations,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:27:33,520):
it could be hampering all the other
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:27:35,160):
things you want to do.Right.So,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:27:37,790):
but yeah,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:27:38,110):
I like to embrace all of it.Yeah,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:27:40,030):
and I mean,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:27:40,750):
you talk later in
the book in one of
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:27:42,570):
the sections where
you're talking about
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:27:45,010):
understanding the idea of parts,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:27:46,950):
you know,that we are,you know,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:27:49,890):
I mean,on some level,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:27:51,530):
we have a unified consciousness,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:27:53,330):
right?
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:27:53,750):
That we recognize,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:27:54,590):
like when we recognize
the person we
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:27:57,150):
were in a picture
from 10 or 20 years
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:27:59,370):
ago,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:28:00,250):
and we know there's
some kind of continuity,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:28:02,290):
but at any given moment in time,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:28:04,110):
we're this assemblage
of parts.And would
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:28:06,930):
you dilate a little bit more on the
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:28:09,190):
idea that there is no deep you,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:28:11,830):
or I guess there is no unified you.
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:28:16,730):
You really are kind of
the sum of different
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:28:19,370):
parts that you're
constantly kind of
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:28:21,550):
jumping from one to the other.Yeah,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:28:25,400):
I think that's
right.In therapies like
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:28:28,480):
internal family systems,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:28:29,500):
they take parts
very literally.Like,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:28:31,120):
you've got this child part,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:28:32,460):
and it needs to be loved,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:28:33,640):
and it feels unloved,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:28:34,440):
and it's acting
out.And I think it's
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:28:37,080):
a mistake to take
them too literally.
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:28:38,500):
Like,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:28:38,680):
we're talking—these
are metaphors that
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:28:40,220):
are useful for
understanding ourself.
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:28:42,080):
I mean,what we really
are on some level,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:28:44,600):
materialistically,is this chunky,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:28:46,100):
fleshy stuff.Okay,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:28:48,320):
what we really are
on a spiritual level,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:28:50,280):
it's some totally
other thing.There's
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:28:52,140):
no,I guess my point is,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:28:53,720):
there's many ways
to look at what you
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:28:55,100):
are,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:28:55,800):
but I tend to look at it
psychologically.That's
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:28:58,140):
my,you know,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:28:58,540):
that's my focus.And
from a psychological
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:29:00,820):
perspective,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:29:01,620):
it can be useful to
think of yourself
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:29:02,920):
as having these
different parts that
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:29:04,680):
have different drives,right?
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:29:06,200):
There's a part of you that wants to
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:29:07,360):
be loved.There's a part of you that
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:29:08,420):
wants achievement,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:29:09,160):
et cetera.And I like
to put at the base
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:29:11,700):
of all that,your values,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:29:13,820):
or more specifically,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:29:15,260):
your intrinsic values,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:29:16,520):
which are the things
you value for their
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:29:17,900):
own sake,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:29:18,560):
not things you value
as a means to an
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:29:19,960):
end.I think that was
the starting point.
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:29:22,450):
Yeah.Yeah.Where do those come from?
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:29:24,890):
Or can we freely
choose those intrinsic
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:29:27,510):
values?
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:29:28,970):
Or is that kind of loaded into us?
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:29:31,550):
You know,is it like
firmware or something?
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:29:33,530):
We come out of the
factory with those
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:29:35,690):
things?
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:29:36,330):
Or is it,you know,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:29:37,590):
is that something that therapy or,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:29:40,630):
you know,a deep psychological,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:29:43,650):
you know,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:29:44,590):
kind of inventory and
philosophical inventory
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:29:47,810):
can change?
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:29:49,690):
That's a great
question.So if you think
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:29:51,310):
about a little baby,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:29:52,290):
I think it already
has some intrinsic
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:29:54,190):
values.Like it likes
pleasure.It tries
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:29:57,270):
to get away.It doesn't like pain,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:29:58,590):
tries to get away
from it.But I don't
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:29:59,750):
think it has big abstract intrinsic
[30:00]
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:30:00,990):
values like achievement
or something
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:30:02,730):
like that.So that
means if that's right,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:30:04,690):
that means they must
develop some time
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:30:06,270):
between being a baby and like being
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:30:08,530):
an adult.And I think
they tend to stabilize.
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:30:10,710):
It's hard to say exactly when,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:30:11,550):
probably in your 20s or 30s.They're
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:30:13,890):
pretty stable at that
point.Occasionally,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:30:15,710):
they can still
change.Like someone who
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:30:17,390):
has,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:30:17,670):
let's say someone who's
a complete atheist
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:30:19,130):
could have no intrinsic
values around
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:30:21,090):
spirituality or God,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:30:22,830):
and then they become
a religious person
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:30:24,450):
and they suddenly get
them.Or the reverse,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:30:26,070):
a religious person could
become an atheist.
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:30:28,070):
But I think they tend to stabilize.
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:30:29,370):
Yeah.is,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:30:38,790):
I don't think there's
a reason to try
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:30:40,290):
to create new intrinsic
values unless
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:30:42,350):
you have intrinsic values that tell
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:30:44,050):
you that your intrinsic
values are bad
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:30:45,470):
or something.But it's like,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:30:46,790):
on what grounds would
you try to create
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:30:48,430):
new ones?
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:30:48,910):
Like,if you don't value something,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:30:50,590):
why would you seek to value it,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:30:51,930):
right?
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:30:52,470):
You just sort of
value what you value.
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:30:54,370):
We're going to jump
around to some of
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:30:56,010):
the levers,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:30:56,570):
but lever seven is
steward your thoughts.
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:31:00,850):
And this has to do with
cognitive restructuring.
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:31:03,830):
And we've touched
on this a little bit
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:31:05,610):
in cognitive behavioral therapy,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:31:07,550):
obviously,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:31:07,790):
this big part.What is
cognitive restructuring
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:31:11,270):
and why is that so important to,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:31:13,770):
or why is that such a powerful part
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:31:16,150):
of a toolkit for how we kind of act
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:31:19,410):
in the world?
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:31:20,280):
A lot of times we take our thoughts
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:31:21,580):
for granted.We just
think our thoughts
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:31:22,940):
are our thoughts.If
something happens,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:31:24,260):
we have a reaction.And
many people think
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:31:26,800):
they can't control their
thoughts.Obviously,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:31:29,480):
you sometimes can.You know,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:31:30,960):
if someone said to you,okay,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:31:32,500):
count from one to 100,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:31:33,760):
you could do that.You
can gain control
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:31:35,680):
of your thoughts.I
think the right way
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:31:38,120):
to put it is you can't
control the first
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:31:39,800):
thought when something happens,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:31:41,140):
but you often can
control the next thought
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:31:43,560):
or the thought after
that or the response
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:31:45,500):
thought.And so
stewarding your thoughts
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:31:47,760):
is really thinking about,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:31:48,780):
well,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:31:48,940):
what do you want
your thoughts to be?
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:31:51,560):
There's a bizarre
realization we had
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:31:53,660):
when writing the
book.It's one of these
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:31:54,880):
things that's like
really obvious at
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:31:56,540):
some level,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:31:57,340):
but it's like shocking
on another level.
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:31:59,510):
Where does suffering come from,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:32:00,830):
right?
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:32:01,770):
You could imagine you could live in
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:32:03,710):
a world where things
smell so bad that
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:32:05,470):
most of your suffering
is from smells.
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:32:07,750):
Thankfully,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:32:08,470):
very few people live in that world.
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:32:09,710):
Or that things were
so ugly around you
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:32:11,450):
that it was the
ugliness of your visual
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:32:13,570):
environment.Most
people don't live in
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:32:14,970):
that world.For almost
everyone in our
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:32:17,450):
world,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:32:18,050):
suffering comes from
one of a few sources,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:32:21,390):
either your body,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:32:22,290):
like you have a physical ailment,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:32:23,750):
like back pain,whatever,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:32:25,110):
or your thoughts,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:32:26,570):
and then if your
body's in good health
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:32:29,010):
and it's not hurting you,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:32:29,730):
then your suffering
is almost entirely
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:32:31,090):
coming from your thoughts,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:32:32,270):
which is kind of
shocking to think about.
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:32:34,550):
And it kind of shows the incredible
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:32:36,290):
importance of being
careful about your
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:32:38,590):
thoughts and actually
trying to steward
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:32:40,030):
them.But then,yeah,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:32:41,440):
that idea that you
can change them as
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:32:43,400):
opposed to learning
to live with your
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:32:45,540):
thoughts the same
way you might learn
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:32:47,640):
to live with plantar fasciitis or a
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:32:51,100):
rotator cuff problem or something,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:32:53,180):
right?
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:32:54,040):
So what goes into
that of how do you
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:32:57,660):
restructure your belief,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:32:59,970):
you know,where,you know,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:33:01,430):
and maybe it is not the,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:33:04,210):
I am unlovable.You know,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:33:06,430):
I am,you know,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:33:07,130):
universally unlovable
and that's why
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:33:09,370):
my relationship failed,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:33:11,310):
but it is something like,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:33:12,910):
I will never be happy
or I don't deserve.
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:33:16,460):
you know,success or
something like that,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:33:18,380):
you know,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:33:19,060):
can you kind of just
briefly walk through,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:33:22,060):
like,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:33:22,240):
how do you get to a point where you
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:33:23,800):
start to,you first
figure out what those,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:33:27,660):
what those thoughts are,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:33:29,120):
you know,what,what those beliefs,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:33:31,140):
what those voices in your head,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:33:32,760):
what those parts are saying,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:33:33,980):
you identify that.And
then how do you
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:33:36,140):
start to change that?
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:33:38,970):
there's different levels to it,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:33:40,530):
actually different
approaches to it.
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:33:41,670):
But a good starting
point is asking,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:33:43,890):
what do you want
the next thought to
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:33:44,950):
be?
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:33:45,190):
Suppose that you
could craft the next
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:33:47,290):
thought after you
think to yourself,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:33:49,130):
I'm unlovable.And
maybe you think to
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:33:50,650):
yourself,I'm unlovable,you know,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:33:51,710):
a dozen times every day.What do you
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:33:53,390):
want to respond with?
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:33:54,230):
You could literally
write it down.So
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:33:55,970):
the way the guidance I like to give
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:33:58,370):
is to make that next
thought something
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:34:00,490):
that is at least as
true as the original,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:34:03,010):
but more helpful.It's
not bullshitting
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:34:05,960):
yourself.It's not
lying to yourself.
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:34:07,320):
It's like something
you believe is at
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:34:08,440):
least as true,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:34:09,020):
but more helpful.So
if you think you're
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:34:10,960):
unlovable,if that's the thought,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:34:12,200):
you might think,well,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:34:13,660):
I know there are
some people that love
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:34:15,060):
me.That might be
at least as true to
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:34:17,520):
you,but more helpful,right?
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:34:19,440):
I know my mother loves
me.But then it's
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:34:21,940):
also all about behavior,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:34:24,380):
right?
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:34:24,740):
Or it's about
action.Because kind of
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:34:27,660):
what you guys are
talking about is that
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:34:29,140):
it's important to
understand thought
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:34:31,800):
processes,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:34:32,660):
but then you have to do
something constructive,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:34:35,520):
right?
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:34:35,940):
As opposed to merely
having a kind of
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:34:41,300):
logical argument that you,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:34:44,840):
okay,this makes sense,right?
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:34:46,500):
So how do you move from
having new thoughts
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:34:49,040):
to having new actions?
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:34:51,000):
Yeah,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:34:51,120):
I think learning to
change that thought
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:34:53,880):
is a precursor to
then taking different
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:34:55,800):
actions.So maybe if
you had the thought,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:34:58,840):
I'm unlovable,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:34:59,580):
and then you start
kind of ruminating
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:35:01,560):
about how people don't love you and
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:35:03,360):
that you go into the spiral,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:35:04,640):
you can write down
that new thought.
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:35:07,840):
Well,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:35:07,940):
I know at least my
mother loves me or
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:35:09,260):
whatever it is.At
least it's true and
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:35:11,280):
more useful.You then
actually can practice
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:35:13,720):
replacing it.and see,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:35:15,880):
make a game of it.How
many times a day
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:35:17,580):
when you have that,
I'm unlovable thought,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:35:19,480):
can you then respond
with this new thought?
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:35:22,580):
And then doing so
can actually break
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:35:25,560):
you out of that next spiral,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:35:27,600):
right?
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:35:28,240):
Oh,okay,now instead of spiraling,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:35:30,140):
I actually can just
move on to something
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:35:31,240):
valuable.I've literally
done this for
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:35:33,360):
myself.I'll give you
an example.I sometimes
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:35:35,760):
will ruminate about
past social interactions
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:35:38,560):
where I felt like,ah,I could,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:35:39,620):
I feel like I could
have behaved better
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:35:41,340):
in that situation,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:35:42,540):
but...was kind of
awkward or something
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:35:44,300):
like that.And I'll
kind of like stew
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:35:45,880):
on it and like replay the situation
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:35:47,400):
over and over again,being like,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:35:48,740):
what did I do wrong?
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:35:49,960):
And it's really not
useful.Like it's
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:35:51,320):
not,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:35:51,500):
it doesn't like lead to
something production.
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:35:52,940):
It's just a waste of
time.It's stressful,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:35:54,860):
not useful,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:35:55,700):
the thing.Obviously
it's good to learn
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:35:57,900):
from your mistakes,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:35:58,600):
but this is a different
thing.This is
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:35:59,500):
just ruminating.And so I was like,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:36:01,700):
okay,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:36:01,940):
what do I want my
next thought to be
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:36:03,000):
when that begins to happen?
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:36:04,480):
I want my next thought to be,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:36:06,380):
this is not how I
want to spend my life,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:36:08,000):
like replaying
situations that I felt
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:36:10,060):
were awkward.That
phrase I've now been
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:36:12,490):
practicing when I have
that first thought
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:36:14,430):
of like,oh,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:36:15,330):
I could have done better
in that situation.
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:36:16,630):
I replace it with this new thought.
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:36:18,270):
And I find it really actually helps
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:36:19,910):
me break out of it
and then skip the
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:36:21,610):
whole rumination.That's
totally pointless.
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:36:23,330):
Right.Yeah.And you
have the lever 12
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:36:27,610):
is attention training,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:36:29,770):
which is related to this,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:36:31,030):
where you kind of suggest
certain exercises
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:36:33,770):
to have,you know,
have us all kind of,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:36:37,210):
you know,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:36:38,410):
direct our attention.One
of the metaphors
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:36:41,270):
that you guys use is your attention
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:36:43,170):
is kind of like a
spotlight.So it can't
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:36:46,030):
be everywhere all
at the time.But and
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:36:47,750):
then you learn,OK,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:36:49,230):
if you're fixating
on something like
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:36:50,690):
how to control that
and move that.And
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:36:52,630):
it's funny.I just you know,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:36:54,910):
I'm in the chapter on
attention training.
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:36:59,070):
You tell people to go
look at a particular
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:37:01,410):
video,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:37:02,150):
which I don't.the
selective attention test,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:37:07,330):
which a lot of people
will know already,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:37:09,850):
which is where people
are playing basketball,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:37:11,870):
like black shirts and white shirts,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:37:14,410):
and they're passing
and you're supposed
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:37:15,650):
to be counting how
many times the white
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:37:17,510):
shirts pass the ball,
and then a gorilla,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:37:19,350):
somebody in a gorilla costume shows
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:37:21,030):
up,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:37:21,470):
and a lot of the
time you don't see it
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:37:23,050):
if you don't know.And
I just wanna say
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:37:25,390):
for myself,like I went,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:37:26,870):
because she's suggesting,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:37:28,210):
I watched that video real quick,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:37:29,640):
I did,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:37:30,220):
and then it took me
about 15 minutes to
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:37:32,140):
get back to the book
because I was on
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:37:34,520):
YouTube,and then I went to another,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:37:36,300):
and I was like,oh,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:37:36,840):
this is like...We're
seeing ourselves
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:37:38,420):
in the foot by right now.Yeah,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:37:41,060):
I mean,or well,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:37:42,060):
I certainly was.But like how,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:37:44,020):
you know,how do you move through,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:37:46,220):
okay,you know,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:37:47,440):
you start to recognize
that our emotions
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:37:50,280):
are kind of,you know,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:37:52,160):
that's meaningful information about
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:37:53,800):
who we are and about
what's going on
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:37:55,480):
around us and how we
process information.
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:37:57,940):
Right.to think about,okay,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:38:00,120):
what are your
foundational beliefs and
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:38:01,740):
what are the kind
of automated scripts
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:38:04,160):
that just start
running every day in
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:38:06,560):
your life?
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:38:07,160):
And like you're bringing those to,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:38:09,040):
you know,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:38:09,480):
an explicit level
so that you can kind
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:38:11,300):
of project them outwards.And say,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:38:13,520):
oh,okay,when people act this way,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:38:15,820):
it's triggering a response that may
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:38:17,440):
have nothing to do
with this particular
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:38:18,860):
situation.And I
want to change that.
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:38:21,180):
Like,how do you get
to that to saying,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:38:23,600):
okay,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:38:23,860):
now I'm going to start
moving my thoughts
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:38:27,940):
and my attention in
a more productive
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:38:29,940):
fashion?
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:38:31,690):
Yeah,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:38:31,910):
so this brings us to
the idea of actually
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:38:35,030):
making a plan,right?
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:38:36,970):
It's often useful
to kind of be like,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:38:38,730):
okay,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:38:39,030):
I know I have this
recurring problem in
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:38:40,990):
my life.It's happening
again and again,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:38:42,750):
whether it's I get stuck
in these rumination
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:38:44,710):
cycles that are not productive,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:38:46,530):
or I get in arguments over and over
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:38:47,870):
again of the same argument,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:38:49,290):
or whatever it is,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:38:50,470):
and making a literal
plan.And an example
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:38:54,430):
of this for me was
there's someone in
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:38:56,530):
my life who has a
tendency to be very
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:38:58,490):
negative.And so often
we'll get in conversations
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:39:00,950):
and they'll end up
being very negative.
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:39:02,770):
And I feel like they're not healthy
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:39:03,910):
for this person.Like it's just it's
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:39:06,010):
sort of like spiraling together,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:39:07,330):
you know,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:39:08,830):
where they're kind
of like talking about
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:39:09,850):
these negative
things.So I was like,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:39:11,370):
OK,let me actually sit down,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:39:12,590):
make a plan.Like,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:39:13,270):
what is my plan to
make this better?
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:39:15,370):
And I realized,like,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:39:16,210):
I can actually redirect
the conversation
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:39:17,710):
to topics that this
person loves talking
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:39:19,730):
about that are
joyful.and they break
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:39:22,480):
them out of the
spiral.And so now what
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:39:23,700):
I've been doing is
when I noticed them
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:39:25,480):
in kind of going into this negative
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:39:26,980):
mode,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:39:27,840):
I'm like actually kind
of start to redirect
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:39:29,320):
them.But the point
here is just that
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:39:31,800):
I literally have a plan.And it kind
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:39:33,880):
of brings together
these different pieces.
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:39:35,280):
Like you have to sort of understand
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:39:36,440):
the causality of
what's happening.Yeah.
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:39:38,760):
And you break it
down in sort of micro
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:39:40,180):
level.And the more micro
level you understand
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:39:41,920):
it,ideally,even at the
level of thoughts,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:39:44,420):
the better that
plan can be.And then
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:39:46,760):
you can say,OK,
now that I have a plan,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:39:48,500):
I know when it's
going to occur.I know
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:39:49,660):
what I'm going to
do.And importantly,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:39:51,480):
it won't always go
to plan.So you could
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:39:53,120):
try your plan.But then sometimes it
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:39:55,430):
will fail,and that's useful data,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:39:56,810):
right?
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:39:57,050):
You've got to be a
scientist about it
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:39:58,830):
and be like,hey,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:39:59,570):
that plan didn't work.I
tried to redirect
[40:00]
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:40:01,210):
them to this positive topic,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:40:02,290):
and they redirected
it right back to
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:40:03,730):
all these bad things in life.Okay,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:40:06,730):
what went wrong there?
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:40:07,990):
And then you update
your plan.Is the
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:40:10,190):
scientist kind of a model for...you
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:40:13,940):
know,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:40:14,120):
what you guys would say
is like psychological,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:40:17,260):
maybe not psychological health,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:40:18,520):
that's like a little too normative,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:40:20,040):
but like,you know,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:40:20,920):
it's a different way
of trying to get
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:40:24,100):
make your way in the
world is by being
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:40:26,020):
a little bit of a
scientist.There was
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:40:27,320):
a book a couple of years ago called
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:40:28,640):
The Scout Mindset,which,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:40:30,940):
you know,use the metaphor of like,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:40:32,960):
you know,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:40:33,360):
you're scouting new
territory and that's
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:40:35,160):
how you should move
through the world.
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:40:36,900):
The scientists,you know,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:40:38,140):
I was thinking he
doesn't come up in
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:40:39,440):
this book.There was
a A fairly prominent
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:40:42,730):
psychologist in the
mid-century America,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:40:45,690):
I think it was based at Ohio State,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:40:47,590):
named George Kelly,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:40:48,470):
who came up with a
theory called personal
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:40:50,850):
construct theory,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:40:51,990):
which is that all
of our problems are
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:40:54,410):
that we have kind of
embedded assumptions
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:40:56,790):
about the world,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:40:58,270):
and then we work
really hard to minimize
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:41:01,070):
cognitive dissonance
when things don't
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:41:02,830):
work out by maintaining
our personal
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:41:05,050):
constructs.And so we become,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:41:07,960):
the worse those are,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:41:10,320):
the more removed from
the world we become.
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:41:12,400):
And this,you know,it's very,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:41:13,940):
in a way,it's similar to,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:41:16,980):
you know,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:41:17,500):
cognitive behavior
therapy or the way
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:41:21,200):
Albert Ellis would
talk in therapy and
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:41:23,000):
things like that.But
is that scientist
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:41:25,140):
mindset of like,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:41:26,840):
where you have a
bunch of hypotheses
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:41:28,600):
and you're like,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:41:29,320):
I want my life to
be different.And I,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:41:32,420):
you know,I think this is,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:41:34,240):
a theory or a hypothesis
that will work.
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:41:37,100):
And you're just
kind of testing that
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:41:38,340):
out and you're
constantly getting data
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:41:41,060):
and then incorporating
it into the next
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:41:43,360):
iteration of whatever
your project is.
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:41:46,060):
There's this remarkable thing about
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:41:47,400):
being a human,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:41:48,300):
which is you would think that being
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:41:50,220):
yourself,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:41:51,000):
that means you know
yourself automatically.
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:41:53,200):
And we just don't.We
have to often reason
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:41:56,000):
about ourselves to
figure it out.Right.
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:42:00,160):
Like,obviously,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:42:00,800):
we have some introspective access,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:42:02,240):
like,you know,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:42:03,060):
we can tell when we're
feeling a certain
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:42:04,840):
thing,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:42:05,260):
but we don't necessarily
know what that
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:42:07,140):
thing means or why
we're feeling it.
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:42:10,250):
it's kind of remarkable
about how much
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:42:12,630):
we can miss about
ourselves and we can
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:42:13,990):
go to age 40 and suddenly
have a realization
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:42:17,750):
about ourselves.Like,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:42:19,110):
how did I not realize that?
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:42:22,590):
It's really quite
amazing.And one technique
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:42:25,210):
I like to use for this,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:42:26,510):
I call it the inner
why technique.It's
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:42:28,730):
very,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:42:29,050):
very simple.It's based
on the idea that
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:42:31,350):
we have so many
different thoughts every
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:42:33,670):
day,probably many thousands,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:42:35,190):
but we forget almost all of them.So
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:42:37,840):
suppose you got an argument earlier
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:42:39,820):
in the day and then someone says,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:42:41,200):
like,well,why did
you get an argument?
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:42:42,960):
You literally may
not remember because
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:42:44,860):
you don't remember the thought that
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:42:46,060):
occurred that
actually caused you to
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:42:47,340):
get angry.And you might even worse,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:42:50,540):
you might rationalize,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:42:51,400):
you might like guess
why you were angry
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:42:53,500):
and be wrong.So the
inner why technique
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:42:55,400):
is very simple.It just says,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:42:56,440):
try to learn to
notice the moment your
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:42:58,880):
emotion shifts.Right.part of it,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:43:01,500):
if we treat it as a game,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:43:02,240):
the first part of the
game is just catch
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:43:03,920):
yourself whenever
your emotion shifts
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:43:05,140):
and practice and see how many times
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:43:06,900):
a day you can catch
it when your emotion
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:43:08,260):
has a sudden shift.And
then the second
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:43:09,940):
part is just simply ask,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:43:11,720):
why did that just happen?
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:43:13,160):
And the funny thing
is when you catch
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:43:15,060):
your emotion shifting right away,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:43:16,780):
usually only one thing
has just happened
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:43:18,460):
in the last 20
seconds.So it's really
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:43:19,900):
easy to spot why,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:43:21,280):
but the bizarre
thing is if you wait
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:43:22,960):
even 20 minutes,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:43:23,900):
you actually have
much less granularity
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:43:25,820):
and you may actually
not really understand
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:43:27,200):
what's going on.So
you could kind of
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:43:29,850):
train a greater self-awareness,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:43:31,990):
which can then be bootstrapped into
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:43:34,150):
a greater understanding
of yourself.
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:43:35,750):
Here's a question
for you.And I don't
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:43:38,810):
know if you did this
kind of analysis,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:43:40,490):
but did you look at
the way that self
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:43:43,050):
-help books or the
large motifs or themes
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:43:45,850):
or patterns changed over time?
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:43:48,450):
You know,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:43:49,210):
it seems like a lot
of people now say,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:43:51,390):
you know,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:43:51,590):
the problem in the
world is that everybody
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:43:53,390):
gets participation
trophies.You know,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:43:56,810):
it's usually this
negative energy is
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:44:00,050):
focused on younger people.But,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:44:01,590):
you know,in my day,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:44:02,970):
we were tough.And nowadays,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:44:04,750):
now everybody gets
everything the way
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:44:06,290):
they want.And is there a sense that
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:44:08,590):
self-help books...or
have shifted from
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:44:11,350):
saying,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:44:11,650):
this is how you make
yourself better,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:44:13,410):
to this is how you learn
to accept yourself
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:44:17,370):
and recognize the
world as being unfair.
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:44:20,750):
Because that seems
to be undergirding
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:44:23,150):
a lot of anger in the world now,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:44:24,770):
which is that it's
not me that's the
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:44:27,570):
problem,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:44:28,150):
it's the world that's
the problem.It's
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:44:30,100):
interesting.I don't
know whether self
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:44:31,120):
-help books change or
there's this filter
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:44:33,680):
where which ones
succeed and then become
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:44:36,220):
famous change based
on what a generation
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:44:38,440):
is looking for,right?
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:44:39,800):
If a generation is
looking for being
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:44:42,420):
told,like,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:44:42,980):
you've got to accept
yourself and you
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:44:44,180):
need more self-compassion,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:44:45,120):
then that stuff will
rise to the top.
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:44:46,540):
Maybe all the other books are still
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:44:47,580):
being written,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:44:48,180):
but they're not the famous ones.And
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:44:50,320):
then in another culture,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:44:51,280):
it's like,no,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:44:51,740):
you've got to work
hard and do everything
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:44:52,840):
yourself and then
you'll make it.And
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:44:55,280):
then another period,it's like,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:44:56,640):
you know,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:44:57,340):
law of attraction and you just need
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:44:58,720):
to manifest,right?
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:44:59,840):
So we do see these
kind of funny phases
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:45:01,560):
where things come
in and out.But it's
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:45:05,060):
also funny because
you can trace a lot
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:45:06,480):
of these ideas like back 2,000
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:45:08,820):
years.And it's so
interesting to see
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:45:11,660):
how an idea from Epictetus in,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:45:14,900):
you know,50BC is like being,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:45:18,060):
you know,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:45:18,440):
talked about again
now as though it's
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:45:20,480):
something new.Yeah,I mean,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:45:21,720):
there does seem,I mean,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:45:23,500):
this I think is...Also,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:45:25,470):
not to fixate on
RET or REBT or CBT,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:45:29,390):
but stoicism is having a moment,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:45:31,850):
particularly among men,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:45:33,190):
but I think also
among women.And that,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:45:36,190):
you know,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:45:36,650):
there seems to be a lot about that,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:45:38,190):
which is,you know,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:45:39,130):
the idea that you...should
concern yourself
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:45:41,380):
with things that you can change,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:45:43,300):
things that are
directly relevant to
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:45:44,900):
you,and that,you know,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:45:46,660):
you kind of have to accept that the
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:45:48,360):
world is not going to
be your best friend
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:45:51,220):
all the time.But,you know,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:45:53,020):
is stoicism,is it on the rise?
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:45:55,920):
And is it because
it's kind of in sync
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:45:58,840):
with these other
psychological tools
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:46:01,540):
that have also
developed over the past
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:46:04,860):
few decades?
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:46:05,780):
Yeah.stoicism is
definitely on the rise.
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:46:07,720):
I remember checking
Amazon for books
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:46:09,600):
on stoicism,and I was like,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:46:10,940):
couldn't believe how
many there were.
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:46:13,220):
And this is an idea where we really
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:46:15,460):
trace it back,you know,to,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:46:17,580):
you know,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:46:17,980):
Marcus Aurelius and these folks way
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:46:20,380):
back.Right,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:46:21,740):
yeah.Stoicism has a
lot of great ideas,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:46:24,180):
so it deserves to
be noted.It's just
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:46:26,720):
funny that it kind of re-arises.But
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:46:28,520):
I think one of the most
important principles
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:46:30,740):
of all self-help,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:46:32,680):
stoicism does a
great job of talking
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:46:33,980):
about,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:46:34,760):
which is that you
really need to focus
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:46:36,540):
on the things that you can control.
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:46:38,360):
If you try to control
the things you
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:46:39,720):
can't control,
then best case scenario,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:46:42,200):
you waste time.Worst case scenario,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:46:43,500):
you make yourself
absolutely miserable.
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:46:45,540):
And actually,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:46:45,920):
we had a really
striking realization
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:46:48,080):
as we were thinking
about this.which
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:46:50,350):
is,again,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:46:50,670):
one of these things
that's sort of obvious
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:46:51,850):
and trivial,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:46:52,410):
but also I've never
heard someone say
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:46:53,930):
it.And like,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:46:54,510):
I think it has somewhat
profound implications,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:46:56,610):
which is there's only
really four things
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:46:59,390):
you control at the
most basic level.
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:47:01,390):
You control your body.You know,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:47:02,810):
you can move around
unless you're paralyzed.
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:47:05,010):
You control your communication,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:47:07,010):
like what you say to
people.You control
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:47:09,500):
your thoughts,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:47:10,420):
but only partially.Like
you can control
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:47:12,800):
the response thought,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:47:13,980):
not necessarily the
first thought.And
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:47:15,520):
then finally,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:47:16,100):
you control your
attention.You know,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:47:18,020):
if you're walking down the street,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:47:19,200):
you know,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:47:19,760):
one person might pay
attention to the
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:47:20,880):
beautiful flower bed
and the other person
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:47:22,380):
might pay attention to the dog shed
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:47:23,720):
right next to the
beautiful flower bed.
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:47:25,320):
And that's going to
have a huge impact,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:47:26,300):
right?
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:47:26,720):
Just those four things.So then when
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:47:28,400):
you're thinking about
improving something
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:47:30,060):
in your life,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:47:30,840):
it can sometimes be
useful to go back
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:47:32,540):
to those four things,right?
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:47:34,270):
say you have this
thought often that
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:47:35,850):
you're worthless,right?
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:47:38,230):
You can go back to
those four things
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:47:39,230):
and you say,well,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:47:40,090):
what can I do about
this from the point
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:47:41,330):
of view of my thoughts?
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:47:42,450):
Well,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:47:42,550):
I can learn to notice
those thoughts about
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:47:44,030):
being worthless and I can develop a
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:47:45,390):
response thought.What
about from communication?
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:47:48,700):
Well,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:47:48,820):
I can stop putting
myself down in front
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:47:50,400):
of other people.And maybe I can ask
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:47:52,220):
people,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:47:52,560):
maybe I can ask my
romantic partner to
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:47:54,320):
help support me in
ways to help me bolster
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:47:56,060):
up my good feelings
about myself.You
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:47:58,960):
can think about your
attention.Are you
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:48:00,300):
paying more attention
to all your failures
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:48:01,940):
and not paying attention
to your successes?
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:48:03,580):
And then you can
think of your body.
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:48:05,000):
Are you taking care of yourself?
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:48:06,160):
Are you treating
yourself like someone
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:48:07,160):
that you love?
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:48:07,760):
Or are you letting yourself kind of
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:48:08,960):
waste away?
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:48:09,840):
Right?
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:48:10,180):
So it's just a useful reframe.Like,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:48:11,660):
oh,wow,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:48:12,060):
that's it.That's all
you've got control
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:48:13,400):
over.Let me,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:48:15,600):
to kind of close out
our conversation,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:48:18,160):
I want to ask,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:48:18,660):
are there political implications to
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:48:22,200):
the kind of psychological
health that
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:48:24,520):
you and your co-author
are discussing?
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:48:26,800):
You know,one of,you know,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:48:28,580):
obviously politics
is a grim business,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:48:31,840):
I think,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:48:32,280):
or I say obviously
politics is a grim
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:48:34,520):
business,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:48:35,020):
but There's a lot
of discussion that
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:48:38,090):
a democracy either
flourishes or founders
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:48:41,790):
on whether or not people can govern
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:48:47,270):
themselves.Are people
being rational?
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:48:50,310):
Are they able to
make basic decisions
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:48:56,670):
on how they should
live their lives?
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:48:59,100):
You know,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:49:00,020):
is there is there a
politics to to the
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:49:02,920):
12 levers or does that
yield to a particular
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:49:06,280):
type of society?
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:49:09,930):
Well,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:49:10,050):
I would say a few
things about that.
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:49:11,970):
First of all,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:49:12,710):
I really like to start with values.
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:49:14,770):
And I think if you think about like
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:49:16,350):
sort of the best possible society,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:49:17,950):
I don't think there
is one best possible
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:49:19,010):
society.I think it
depends on what values
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:49:20,490):
you have.There's a
best society from
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:49:22,670):
the point of view,you know,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:49:23,390):
freedom and autonomy
and achievement.
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:49:25,650):
That might be very
different from the
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:49:26,810):
best of a safety and
security society
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:49:28,810):
where it's,you know,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:49:29,470):
the most important
thing is being safe.
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:49:30,810):
And as long as
you've achieved that,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:49:31,890):
everything's great,right?
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:49:33,370):
And so I think it's the same at the
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:49:35,550):
individual level.Like
we have different
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:49:37,390):
values from each
other.Different people
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:49:39,510):
have different values
and it's important
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:49:40,610):
for them to understand it.And so if
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:49:42,090):
they're trying to
create their own perfect
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:49:43,610):
life,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:49:44,090):
like it's going to
hinge on their value.
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:49:45,870):
So I think that's one thing I think
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:49:47,990):
has a connection to
politics.And then,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:49:51,030):
of course,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:49:51,510):
our book is rooted in the idea that
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:49:53,630):
you're trying to
improve your own life
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:49:55,310):
using the things
that you have control
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:49:57,070):
over.And,of course,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:49:58,370):
many people are in
shitty situations
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:49:59,790):
that they didn't have control over.
[50:00]
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:50:01,450):
You know,if you're born with HIV,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:50:03,550):
you know,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:50:04,210):
you didn't choose
that.Right.You know,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:50:06,950):
we all didn't you know,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:50:08,010):
we're lucky to not
have died in infancy,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:50:10,330):
you know,like so,you know,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:50:12,710):
but but I think it is worth talking
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:50:14,530):
about the leverage you have control
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:50:15,610):
over because literally
that's what you
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:50:16,730):
have control over.Yeah,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:50:17,610):
it'd be great if
society was improved,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:50:19,850):
but you don't necessarily
have the ability
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:50:21,070):
to do that.But you
do have the ability
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:50:22,250):
to take action today
to start making
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:50:24,010):
your life better.It
is horrifying to
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:50:26,430):
think that as you were talking,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:50:28,070):
I was thinking of
the Michael Jackson
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:50:29,330):
song,The Man in the Mirror,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:50:30,910):
where he pledged
that he was going to
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:50:33,170):
start when changing society,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:50:35,150):
he was going to start
with the man in
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:50:36,370):
the mirror himself.And I don't know
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:50:38,610):
that that worked out
very well for him.
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:50:41,330):
But although he's having a moment,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:50:43,610):
right?
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:50:44,030):
People love his music
and you can separate
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:50:45,770):
the art from the artist or the,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:50:47,610):
you know,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:50:47,950):
whatever.I guess as
a final question,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:50:50,630):
what is,you know,
if anybody who's listening,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:50:57,190):
you know,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:50:57,530):
they don't have to.They can buy the
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:50:59,330):
12 levers and then
they you have it's
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:51:02,570):
like a meta thing.of
all of the best
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:51:06,160):
things that self-help books have to
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:51:07,760):
offer.But if somebody
is reading another
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:51:10,200):
self-help book,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:51:11,160):
when should the
bullshit detector come
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:51:14,140):
up in a self-help book?
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:51:15,640):
You know,what,you know,
where it's like,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:51:17,780):
okay,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:51:17,980):
this is not about actually
improving yourself.
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:51:20,940):
This is about something
else.I'm someone
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:51:23,180):
who believes there's
a lot of really
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:51:24,580):
valuable stuff in self-help,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:51:26,080):
but there's also just
a tremendous amount
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:51:27,320):
of bullshit.And so it's
this funny dichotomy
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:51:29,420):
at the same time.And
we tried to really
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:51:31,660):
gather the good stuff and write the
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:51:34,040):
book.We wish we could have read it,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:51:35,560):
just gathered it all.But I think my
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:51:37,860):
bullshit detector
goes off when someone
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:51:39,780):
says,look,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:51:40,800):
I was just like you.I had all these
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:51:42,760):
hardships you had.But look,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:51:44,280):
I pulled myself out
of it.And with this
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:51:45,940):
one trick,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:51:46,660):
you're going to
solve everything.And
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:51:47,940):
it's just going to
take you 30 days.
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:51:49,260):
And it's not going
to take any effort.
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:51:50,820):
I call total bullshit
on that.Like self
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:51:52,820):
-change is work.It's
difficult.And you
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:51:55,840):
need multiple
tools.There's no one tool
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:51:57,620):
that's going to
solve everything.And
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:51:58,880):
there's a good chance,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:51:59,700):
even if you use really good tools,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:52:00,700):
the first tool might
not work.You might
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:52:02,160):
have to adapt.The second tool,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:52:03,260):
the second tool might
not work.You might
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:52:04,280):
have to go to the third one.I mean,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:52:05,600):
with my social anxiety,You know,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:52:07,600):
it's silly because a
lot of people could
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:52:09,100):
just go and have a
conversation with
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:52:10,540):
someone and feel nothing.But I felt
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:52:12,020):
absolute terror.So
I had to go through
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:52:13,760):
months of absolute
terror in order to
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:52:16,100):
improve it.And I think
that's more emblematic
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:52:18,820):
of like self-improvement
takes work.
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:52:20,360):
It's challenging.It
is.Yeah.And it's
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:52:22,580):
iterative,right?
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:52:23,600):
Where like it's a
little bit at a time.
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:52:26,420):
And then maybe eventually
you'll recognize
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:52:28,260):
you're a very different person than
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:52:29,740):
you were.six months or a year or 10
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:52:31,850):
years ago,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:52:32,450):
but you don't necessarily feel that
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:52:34,290):
on a daily basis.And
I guess it's also
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:52:36,550):
really hard to
empathize.And I'm not
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:52:39,570):
sure that this fits
into the book per
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:52:41,130):
se,but to empathize
with other people,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:52:43,550):
because like,you know,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:52:44,810):
some people have problem,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:52:46,310):
you know,with alcohol,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:52:47,370):
other people have
problems with food,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:52:49,030):
other people have
problems with kind
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:52:51,190):
of,you know,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:52:52,310):
negative thoughts
or whatever.And it's
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:52:54,190):
hard to even when
you're consciously
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:52:56,800):
trying to do it,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:52:57,540):
it's hard to get out
of universalizing
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:52:59,660):
your experience,right?
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:53:01,440):
Yeah.You know,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:53:02,380):
we're only having
experiences from one
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:53:04,500):
mind.And so that's
all we know of the
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:53:06,760):
world.So we kind of
project that onto
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:53:09,220):
all kinds of things.But
But the reality
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:53:11,340):
is we're wildly different from each
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:53:13,060):
other.And,you know,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:53:14,040):
you mentioned SSRIs
like Prozac.I mean,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:53:16,960):
one person will take it and they'll
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:53:18,520):
feel quite a bit better.And
that's fantastic.
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:53:20,400):
Another person will
take it and they'll
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:53:21,360):
have worse anxiety.So
it's so idiosyncratic.
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:53:24,940):
Like humans are just
so different.And
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:53:26,820):
I think because
social norms force us
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:53:30,280):
to act similarly,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:53:31,420):
it actually makes
it seem like people
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:53:33,280):
are more similar.You know,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:53:34,380):
you go to a wedding and,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:53:35,760):
you know,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:53:36,140):
everyone's kind of politely talking
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:53:37,600):
and,you know,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:53:38,160):
eating food at the
buffet.Nobody's in
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:53:39,920):
the middle of the
room naked screaming,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:53:41,700):
right?
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:53:42,240):
Unless it's kind of
one of those weddings.
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:53:43,680):
But,you know,like,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:53:46,400):
so I think we tend to underestimate
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:53:47,720):
how different we are
from each other.
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:53:49,370):
Okay,well,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:53:49,810):
we're going to leave
it there.The book
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:53:51,150):
is The 12 Levers,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:53:52,590):
The Complete
Psychological Toolkit for
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:53:54,630):
Improving Your Life.It's by Spencer
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:53:56,590):
Greenberg and Jeremy
Stevenson.Spencer,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:53:59,330):
thanks so much for
talking to Reason
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:54:00,870):
today.Yeah,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:54:01,650):
thanks so much for having me on.And
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:54:03,110):
also,I just want to say,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:54:04,130):
if you enjoy this,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:54:04,770):
I would love it if you check out my
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:54:05,770):
podcast called Clearer Thinking.And
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:54:07,670):
I had a great
conversation with Nick
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:54:09,190):
on the podcast.You can listen to it
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:54:10,290):
if you like.It was a while ago,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:54:11,530):
and I'm not sure
how great it was on
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:54:12,850):
my part.On yours,yes,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:54:15,210):
it's an excellent show.Thank you so
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:54:17,910):
much,Nick.Spencer Greenberg,
Speaker (not reliably separated) (00:54:19,330):
thanks for talking
to Reason.Thanks.
References
- 1The Reason 单集详情页
reason.com
- 2SoundCloud 单集页：章节与节目说明
soundcloud.com
- 3Hachette 作者页：The 12 Levers
hachettebookgroup.com
- 4Spencer Greenberg 官方简介
spencergreenberg.com
- 5ClearerThinking.org 官方网站
clearerthinking.org
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