Reason访谈速读：Zion Lights 为什么从反核转向支持核能
The Reason Interview 前 Extinction Rebellion 发言人 Zion Lights 回看自己从反核转向支持核能的过程，讨论能源贫困、德国弃核、核能安全、核工业建设，以及能源丰裕与人类繁荣的关系。
先说这期在讲什么
The Reason Interview 这期请来 Zion Lights。她曾是 Extinction Rebellion 的发言人，后来从反对核能转向公开支持核能；节目围绕这次转向，谈她父母从印度农村来到英国的经历、一个平底锅为什么能连接能源与贫困、德国弃核后的政策后果、福岛与切尔诺贝利带来的安全争议，以及核工业为什么在西方建得又慢又贵。节目页把这期分成「平底锅的意义」「繁荣与愧疚」「Extinction Rebellion」「核能安全」「法国与德国」「中国与阿联酋」等段落，完整音频时长约 62 分钟。1
这不是一场把正反方都请齐的能源政策听证会。主讲人是一个立场已经转向核能的环保活动者，主持人 Nick Gillespie 也不断把问题推向「核能是否被环保运动误解」这一方向。它最适合被当成一场有明确立场的自我辩护：Lights 解释自己为什么改口，也试图说明反核叙事怎样从风险判断变成道德姿态。节目中的具体判断，尤其涉及德国、福岛、组织资金和能源政策后果的部分，应当理解为访谈中的论述；下文会把「节目提出的观点」和外部资料能支持的背景分开写。
一句话结论
Lights 的核心判断很简单：能源不是生活方式的附属品，而是医院、电网、铁路、手机、工业和脱贫的前提。她认为，环保主义如果把少消费、少出行、少使用技术变成道德要求，就会把真正生活在贫困中的人想要的东西误认为不值得拥有；如果反核导致社会回到煤炭和天然气，所谓清洁目标反而会变得更难实现。
这期真正有说服力的地方，不是「核能绝对没有风险」这种说法，Lights 并没有这样说。她承认核事故会造成严重后果，主张把核能和煤、石油、天然气、水电放在同一套成本收益和单位发电风险里比较。外部资料 Our World in Data 也采用每太瓦时死亡人数、全生命周期温室气体排放等口径比较能源，而不是只看单个事故；其页面的结论是，化石燃料的健康和气候代价显著高于核能与现代可再生能源。2
1. 一个平底锅，为什么能讲清能源贫困
Lights 的父母来自印度农村，后来在 20 世纪 50 年代末至 60 年代初移居英国。她在书的开头写母亲留下的一个 saucepan，也就是平底锅。这个物件看起来和核电站相距很远，却是她整套论证的入口：平底锅要在现代厨房里真正发挥作用，需要电力、燃气或稳定的热源；厨房之外，医院、铁路、工厂和供水系统同样要靠能源运行。
她回到父母的村庄时，看到的不是「回归自然」的浪漫画面，而是能源匮乏的日常。有人用铁罐头盒在粗糙的明火上做饭，为了维持火堆，要收集木柴、杂物和牛粪；烟雾让做饭的人咳嗽。即使稍微有钱，也可能只能使用发电机，能够获得的电力非常有限。她因此重新理解了「钱能解决什么」：钱可以买食物，却不一定能让村里出现电网、道路、医院和交通。
平底锅还连接着她母亲的另一段经历。母亲曾在伯明翰的工厂里制造这类器具，长时间站立工作，因为当时的职业健康安全条件很差，一只耳朵失聪。工厂后来关闭，但母亲并不把这件物品只看作消费品。它代表收入、照料家庭的能力，以及一个工人能够用自己的劳动换来一点自主权。Lights 想说的不是「工厂时代没有代价」，而是贫困和低能源消费也从来不是一种自由。
2. 从「节制」到「愧疚」：她批评的不是环保目标，而是道德化的匮乏
Lights 说，自己从小就反复听到「资本主义不好」「不要浪费」「要关灯、关水龙头、少消费」等信息。节约本身没有错，问题在于，当节约被延伸成「富裕本身是不道德的」，能源讨论就从工程问题变成了纯洁感和愧疚感。
她把德国当成这种文化的极端例子。她认为，部分欧洲环保叙事并不是从贫困者需要什么出发，而是先假定人类使用得太多，所以应该接受更少的出行、更少的汽车、更少的飞行和更受限制的生活。节目里她用很尖锐的方式反问：真正生活在贫困中的人，会不会把离网、缺电、没有交通和只能靠烟火做饭看成理想生活？她在印度村庄的记忆给出的答案是否定的。
这里有一条很重要、也很有争议的延伸线：她把「减少人口、减少消费」的部分环保观点，与一种不希望发展中国家提高生活水平的心理联系起来。她认为，欧洲人一方面因为自己的富裕而内疚，另一方面又不愿意看到更多人获得同样的生活条件，甚至把住房、公共服务和就业压力简单归咎于移民。这个判断明显带有她个人的政治立场，节目没有提供数据来证明它适用于所有环保组织；读者可以把它看成 Lights 对自己旧立场的反思，而不是一个已经完成的社会科学结论。
她还批评一种被浪漫化的「自然」。Shelley、Keats 等作家塑造了现代人熟悉的自然想象，仿佛回到土地就能回到纯净生活。但在她父母的村庄，40 摄氏度的高温、蛇和缺乏医疗才是自然环境的另一面。她提到一位死于蛇咬的亲戚，用来说明「离开现代基础设施」并不自动等于更健康、更自由。
3. Extinction Rebellion：气候组织还是政治组织
Lights 曾加入 Extinction Rebellion，并担任发言人。她起初被这个组织的视觉设计、气候危机叙事和「保护地球、保护生命、推动更公平系统」的目标吸引。组织还提出过 citizens' assemblies，即由随机或广泛代表组成的公民大会，作为政治决策方式。
后来她认为，组织的实际目标比气候政策更像政治革命。她在节目里说，组织对外谈「更多民主」，但内部有一种更强的愿望：由他们来告诉其他人应该怎样生活，因为「其他人已经毁掉了地球」。她举出的潜台词包括不该坐飞机、不该开车，以及人们应当接受更低的生活质量。她认为这和保护人类的目标产生冲突，因为能够去医院、保持行动自由，本身就是生活质量的一部分。
这也是她开始怀疑反核立场的地方。组织告诉她只需要谈气候科学，却没有给出「没有天然气之后怎么办」的可执行答案。后来她参加 Andrew Neil 的节目，主持人反复追问这个问题。Lights 试图回答「需要 system change」「需要更多 democracy」，最后承认：「I don't have any answers for you.」她说那段视频上传后获得了超过 200 万次观看，自己也意识到，不能再代表组织重复一个没有能源供给方案支撑的反核答案。节目页明确列出这段经历和 Extinction Rebellion，是理解她立场转向的关键背景。1
4. 她为什么说反核更像一种「感觉」
Lights 认为，反核并不总是从反应堆设计、事故概率和电网调度出发，而常常先有一种「核很坏」的感觉，再去寻找论据。她提到核能和核武器被混为一谈，也怀疑一些环保组织在历史上接受过化石燃料相关产业的资金。这里属于访谈中的指控，节目没有在现场给出完整的资金文件，所以不能把它改写成已经核实的事实。
她还谈到大众文化如何固定这种印象。《辛普森一家》里的核电站、德国电视剧《暗黑》里的核电站灾难、德国学校长期使用的反核读物《Die Wolke》，在她看来共同制造了一个视觉模板：邪恶的核工业、粗心的工人、三只眼睛的鱼、绿色液体和黄色废料桶。她认为这些故事把复杂的风险问题压缩成了善恶故事，反核者因此不必再解释不同反应堆设计、事故概率或替代能源的污染。
她不是说公众不该害怕事故，而是认为恐惧必须和替代方案放在一起看。关掉一个核电站并不会让电力需求消失；在风电和太阳能无法覆盖需求时，系统可能回到煤炭、天然气或进口电力。把核能从讨论中删除，等于把代价藏到另一个地方。
5. 切尔诺贝利、福岛与「安全」究竟怎么比较
主持人先把最难回避的三个名字摆出来：切尔诺贝利、福岛和三里岛。Lights 没有否认核能危险，也没有把事故说成「从未发生」。她的回答是，能源政策必须进行 cost-benefit analysis，也就是把收益和多种风险放在同一张账上。
关于切尔诺贝利，她强调 RBMK 反应堆的设计问题，认为今天不会再建造同类反应堆。她在节目中说，现代反应堆不会以同样方式爆炸，并据此得出「不会再有另一个切尔诺贝利」的判断。这是她的节目观点，不能扩大成所有核事故风险都已经消失。更稳妥的表达是：反应堆类型、监管、操作和应急体系会改变风险，不能用一场历史事故替代对所有核技术的笼统判断。
谈到福岛，她强调事故后的疏散和恐慌也可能造成伤亡，并说没有人死于熔毁本身，疏散过程造成的死亡多于辐射直接造成的死亡。这个表述在访谈中是她用来反驳过度恐惧的核心论据，文章不把它当成未经限定的普遍结论。它至少提出了一个容易被忽略的问题：为了避免一种风险，政策是否制造了另一种风险？
外部背景资料可以帮助读者理解她的比较方法。Our World in Data 的口径不是只统计事故，而是把空气污染和供应链事故纳入每太瓦时死亡人数，同时把开采、运输和电厂生命周期纳入排放比较；它明确提醒，核能、风能和太阳能在低风险区间差距很小，关键差异在于它们都远低于化石燃料。2
6. 法国与德国：同一个欧洲，走出两条能源路线
法国是节目里对德国弃核最重要的对照。Lights 参加过反对关闭 Fessenheim 核电站的活动。她说，这座反应堆虽然老，但并没有到必须关停的寿命终点，理论上可以延寿；在舆论压力下，法国政府仍然选择关闭。之后，法国又宣布建设新的反应堆。她还提到法国核电占比曾从约 80% 降到约 70%，这组数字属于节目中的说法，本文不把它更新成独立统计口径。
德国的故事在她的叙述里更直接：几乎关闭所有核电后，风电和太阳能没有及时补上稳定供给，德国重新使用更多煤炭，电价也变高，对俄罗斯能源的依赖风险随之上升。她认为德国的反核文化不仅在游行和政策里，也进入影视、教材和公共叙事，所以即使后来很多人承认不该关掉核电站，政策惯性仍然很强。
这组对比最值得听的地方，不是简单得出「法国正确、德国错误」，而是看能源政策如何受舆论和道德语言影响。一个反应堆关掉之后，替代电力需要新的基础设施、燃料和输电调度；如果这些成本没有出现在关停决定里，账单会在几年后以电价、污染或产业外迁的形式出现。节目把这称作一种「自己绊倒自己」的政策选择。
7. 核能为什么在西方变得又慢又贵
Lights 认为，核能的技术成本并不是唯一问题，长期恐惧、反对和过度监管也被嵌进了建设流程。她以英国 EPR，也就是 European Pressurized Reactor，欧洲压水堆为例：如果同一种设计能像 Lego 套件一样重复建造，工程团队可以学习并降低成本；现实却是每个国家都不断修改设计、增加更厚的混凝土、指定特殊材料和紧固件，供应链一旦出问题，整个项目就延误。
她提到英国最新的反应堆项目，据节目说法预计可以为 600 万户家庭供电，但已经延误十多年；她又把英国和西方建设周期与中国、日本、韩国对比，称韩国建设同类反应堆可能只需三到四年，并且已经把技术出口到其他国家。这里的数字和工期都应视为访谈中的说法，读者若要做项目投资或政策判断，还需要查看项目方、监管机构和独立成本评估。
她也没有把责任全部推给反核组织。她认为核工业自身缺少紧迫感，工程师和科学家擅长设计，却常常不擅长向公众解释事故、承担责任和处理危机。她举了一个公关上的反例：她组织去电站附近海滩游泳，回应「海水有放射性」的反对说法；活动前，核工业公关团队发邮件要求他们不要举办，因为担心抗议和负面新闻。Lights 对此非常愤怒，认为产业已经形象不佳，却仍然主动劝退愿意支持它的人。
她把核工业和 Challenger 航天飞机事故、SpaceX 与 NASA 的新叙事作比较：航天行业能够把事故放进探索和改进的故事里，而核工业往往让公众只看到沉默、推诿和灾难画面。她最后把希望放在更快的建设模式和 SMR，也就是 small modular reactor、小型模块化反应堆上，但她同样怀疑 SMR 的宣传是否足以证明它能支撑整个国家，而不只是给数据中心供电。
8. 中国、阿联酋与韩国：快，不等于没有代价
节目后半段谈到中国和阿联酋。Lights 承认，这些国家推进能源和核能项目的速度很快，但她担心强威权治理下普通人和工人的代价会被忽视，安全问题也可能没有充分公开。她并不是因此放弃核能，而是把问题转向治理：民用核能需要高标准、透明监管和能让公众追问的制度。
她对韩国更有信心。在她的说法里，韩国不是威权国家，却建立了成熟的民用核能产业，并把设计出口到其他国家。这里的对照很重要：节目并没有把「核能发展快」自动当成好事，而是问谁承担了风险、谁能检查工程、谁能在事故之后要求解释。
9. 能源丰裕，为什么不只是给数据中心用
Lights 反复说：「Energy is what supports a civilization」，能源支撑文明；「Energy is what brings prosperity」，能源带来繁荣。她反对把核能说成只服务富人或数据中心的高端消费，因为电力的价值也体现在医院、工厂、交通、通信、教育和基础医疗。
她认为，传统大型核电仍然是支撑整个国家的稳妥选择，SMR 可以在一些场景里给数据中心供电，却未必足以支撑全国电力系统。她还把德国和英国的高电价与制造业关闭联系起来，认为西方在能源上「shot ourselves in the foot」，自己削弱了产业竞争力。
这条论证可以和外部资料放在一起看。能源系统的比较不能只算发电站的名义成本，还要算储能、备用电源、输电、土地、材料、事故、空气污染和建设周期。节目没有展开一套完整的模型，但它提醒读者，所谓便宜或清洁，必须说明计算边界。
10. 环保不该自动等于反技术
访谈最后从核能扩展到基因编辑、转基因食品和黄金大米。Lights 认为，这些技术曾被环保运动过度妖魔化，反技术政策可能伤害贫困国家。她提到斯里兰卡突然去化肥、转向有机农业的政策，认为这带来严重贫困、农民受苦和政治后果。节目没有在现场提供完整政策时间线和独立数据，所以这里应视为她用来支持观点的案例，而不是一段已经完成核查的国家史。
她对手机的讨论更具体。富裕国家把手机当作日用品，却常常看不见它背后的采矿、工厂和被外包到低环保标准地区的劳动代价；对发展中国家的人来说，手机却可能意味着银行服务、工作、信用记录、汇款、互联网和医疗信息。没有医生时，一条可靠的健康信息可能真的能救命，但手机要发挥作用，仍然需要电、交通和通信基础设施。
她还谈到 AI 和语音技术对低识字率、语言消失中的人群可能有帮助：用户不一定要读长篇文字，只要能通过语音和翻译获得知识，技术就可能扩大可及性。这里的逻辑和开头的平底锅相同：工具本身不是魔法，决定它能不能改变生活的是电力、网络、交通和持续维护。
人物背景
Zion Lights 的官方网站称，她是科学传播者、《Energy Is Life: Why Environmentalism Went Nuclear》的作者，曾任 Extinction Rebellion 发言人，也曾编辑英国气候报道报纸 The Hourglass；她拥有西英格兰大学科学传播硕士学位，长期写作科学、环境和能源议题。3
出版方对《Energy Is Life》的介绍，把这本书定位为她从草根绿色活动者转向核能倡导者的个人历程，主题包括气候危机、能源贫困和清洁电力，也明确说这本书试图挑战核能的常见误解。4
主持人 Nick Gillespie 是 The Reason Interview 的主持人。Reason 的节目页把本期讨论放在自由、市场与公共政策的语境里，因此读者听到的并不是一份中性的核电技术报告，而是一场由环保主义者转向核能倡导者讲述的立场变化。
术语速查
| 术语 | 在这期里的含义 |
|---|---|
| Energy poverty | 能源贫困，指家庭或社区缺乏稳定、可负担的电力和现代燃料，进而影响做饭、医疗、交通、教育和工作。 |
| Energy abundance | 能源丰裕，节目用来指稳定、充足且可负担的能源供给，不只是多建几座电厂。 |
| Cost-benefit analysis | 成本收益分析，把一种能源的事故、污染、建设、土地、燃料和电力收益放在同一组比较里。 |
| RBMK | 切尔诺贝利使用的反应堆类型。Lights 认为它的设计风险不能直接代表现代反应堆。 |
| EPR | European Pressurized Reactor，欧洲压水堆。节目用英国项目说明设计修改、监管和供应链如何推高建设周期。 |
| SMR | Small Modular Reactor，小型模块化反应堆。它可能适合特定工业或数据中心场景，但节目质疑其能否单独支撑整个国家。 |
| Civil nuclear | 民用核能，指用于发电、供热或其他和平用途的核技术，与核武器体系不是同一件事。 |
| Citizens' assemblies | 公民大会，由具有代表性的公众参与讨论和决策的机制，Extinction Rebellion 曾把它列为政治方案。 |
收听建议
如果你只想理解 Lights 为什么改口，重点听 00:00 的平底锅、17:38 左右的 Extinction Rebellion 与能源政策冲突，以及 36:56 左右她在 Andrew Neil 节目后承认没有答案的经历。如果你关心核能风险，听 27:35 之后的切尔诺贝利、福岛和疏散讨论，再把她的判断和每太瓦时风险比较放在一起看。如果你关心产业与政策，重点听 43:57 之后的核工业建设、监管、公关和 SMR，50:50 之后则是中国、阿联酋、韩国与能源丰裕的讨论。
这期节目值得完整收听，但更适合当作一份立场鲜明的论证材料，而不是把所有结论直接当成事实清单。它最值得带走的问题是：当一个社会说「我们不能再使用某种能源」时，是否同时说清楚了谁来供电、谁承担成本，以及缺电会让哪些人继续留在贫困里？
完整逐字稿与中文对照
Reason 节目页公开了完整音频、章节和 show notes，但没有提供官方逐字稿。下文使用整段公开音频生成的全量 ASR，保留识别文本，不删去广告前后的节目语句，也不把听不清的专名擅自改成确定写法。由于音频没有可靠的讲话人分离结果，无法诚实地把每段机械归给 Nick Gillespie 或 Zion Lights，因此统一标为「Speaker (not reliably separated)」。每 10 分钟设置一次时间轴；每个时间段先列英文 ASR 原文，再给出对应的中文译文式对照导读。人名专名以节目方节目页和 Zion Lights 官方页面为准，ASR 中出现的 Zeon / Dionne 等识别误差不作为正文事实。1
全量音频 ASR 对照
00:00-10:00
English ASR original
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (00:01.38-00:03.24):
This is the Reason
interview with Nick
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (00:03.24-00:05.98):
Gillespie.My guest
today is Zeon Leitz.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (00:06.08-00:08.36):
She's a former spokesperson for the
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (00:08.36-00:09.86):
extreme environmental group,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (00:09.86-00:11.44):
Extinction Rebellion.We're
gonna talk
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (00:11.44-00:13.90):
about them and what
they're about.She's
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (00:13.90-00:17.02):
one of the most
persuasive and insistent
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (00:17.02-00:19.14):
voices in favor of
nuclear technology
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (00:19.14-00:22.88):
and clean energy.Her
new book is Energy
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (00:22.88-00:23.78):
is Life,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (00:23.78-00:27.11):
Why Environmentalism
Went Nuclear.which
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (00:27.11-00:28.73):
has been praised by people who have
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (00:28.73-00:29.71):
been guests on this show,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (00:29.71-00:31.73):
such as Steven Pinker
and Michael Shermer.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (00:32.33-00:33.13):
Dionne Leitz,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (00:32.95-00:34.61):
thanks for talking to Reason.Thanks
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (00:34.61-00:35.77):
for having me on
here.It's a pleasure
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (00:35.77-00:37.59):
to be here.All right.You know,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (00:37.59-00:40.45):
I want to start
before we get to kind
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (00:40.45-00:43.47):
of your conversion
and like a couple
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (00:43.47-00:46.77):
of big public kind
of moments that you
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (00:46.77-00:50.67):
had in England or in
Britain.Your book,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (00:50.67-00:52.53):
which is an incredible read,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (00:52.53-00:56.55):
you open with a
discussion of a saucepan.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (00:56.83-00:58.95):
that your parents
had.It's one of the
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (00:58.95-01:02.05):
few things they
were emigres or have
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (01:02.05-01:04.93):
roots in India.They
came to Great Britain
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (01:04.93-01:06.31):
in the late 50s,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (01:06.31-01:09.55):
early 60s.And you
talk about a saucepan.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (01:09.61-01:11.85):
And it's just kind
of strange in a book
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (01:11.99-01:14.51):
that is about energy and
is about environmentalism
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (01:14.79-01:17.69):
and about politics
and nuclear energy.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (01:18.11-01:19.69):
You start with a pan.Why,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (01:19.69-01:21.75):
explain a little bit about the pan.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (01:21.94-01:25.34):
So it's really about connecting how
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (01:25.34-01:27.50):
many things in our life are related
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (01:27.50-01:28.30):
to energy,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (01:28.30-01:29.64):
because it's not
something we tend to
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (01:29.64-01:30.74):
think about.And when I say energy,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (01:30.74-01:33.22):
I mean electricity.And of course,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (01:33.22-01:36.22):
a saucepan is a good example.Not on
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (01:36.22-01:37.20):
the surface,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (01:37.20-01:38.46):
but when you think
a little bit deeper
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (01:38.46-01:39.26):
about it,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (01:38.94-01:41.14):
it doesn't work
unless you have access
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (01:41.14-01:43.50):
to electricity.Now in India,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (01:43.60-01:47.84):
where my parents
left quite bad rural
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (01:47.84-01:51.24):
poverty...they
didn't have access to
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (01:51.24-01:52.60):
electricity and that
village where they're
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (01:52.60-01:54.68):
from still doesn't.So
some people might
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (01:54.68-01:55.48):
have a bit more money,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (01:55.40-01:56.72):
they might have
access to a generator,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (01:56.80-01:59.04):
but that's still
very limited energy.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (01:59.04-02:01.46):
It was only when I was there that I
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (02:01.46-02:02.96):
started thinking about
scarcity in this
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (02:02.96-02:04.10):
way because living here,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (02:04.10-02:05.08):
growing up here my whole life,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (02:05.08-02:06.78):
I'd never experienced it.Even then,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (02:06.78-02:08.70):
I wouldn't say I really experienced
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (02:08.70-02:11.38):
it because that was
a choice.I was on
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (02:11.38-02:12.18):
holiday,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (02:11.86-02:16.98):
visiting family over
there.The amount
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (02:16.98-02:19.32):
of things I had to
reevaluate that to
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (02:19.32-02:24.49):
really accept that
I've called the book
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (02:24.49-02:26.21):
Energy is Life because it underpins
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (02:26.21-02:27.97):
everything.Every
time I saw a problem
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (02:27.97-02:29.75):
there,I thought,
you could solve this,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (02:29.75-02:30.55):
but it wouldn't be,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (02:30.49-02:32.93):
you can solve it
with money.It would
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (02:32.93-02:35.05):
be,you need a power grid,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (02:35.05-02:37.47):
you need rail lines
to be able to get
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (02:37.53-02:38.33):
to the hospital,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (02:37.97-02:39.23):
you need all of
this infrastructure,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (02:39.23-02:40.71):
and all of it comes down to needing
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (02:40.71-02:42.39):
electricity.So the
source problem is
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (02:42.39-02:43.83):
a good example because
my mum obviously
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (02:43.83-02:44.63):
knew this,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (02:44.47-02:46.39):
but she never expressed
it to me.She's
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (02:46.39-02:47.77):
a woman of very little words,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (02:47.77-02:51.75):
to be honest.And she
worked in a factory
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (02:51.75-02:53.23):
and both my parents
were factory workers.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (02:53.59-02:55.27):
All those factories
are derelict now,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (02:55.27-02:57.27):
all shut down.But there
was a big industrial
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (02:57.27-02:58.75):
boom at that time
in Birmingham where
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (02:58.75-03:01.09):
I was born and
raised.And so she used
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (03:01.09-03:03.17):
to make these pans.She used to work
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (03:03.17-03:05.41):
at the machinery on
her feet all day.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (03:06.19-03:06.99):
You know,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (03:06.45-03:07.97):
she lost a hearing
in one ear because
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (03:07.97-03:09.57):
there was not a lot
of health and safety
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (03:09.57-03:11.59):
back there.It was very loud.But she
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (03:11.59-03:13.39):
never complained
because she had a job.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (03:13.53-03:15.63):
She had an income.She had a kind of
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (03:15.63-03:18.23):
freedom,liberty that,you know,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (03:18.23-03:21.15):
no one in...generations
of her family
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (03:21.15-03:23.41):
had ever known and
so these saucepans
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (03:23.41-03:25.21):
were just and i
didn't know this you
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (03:25.21-03:27.79):
know but they were
like she was so amazed
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (03:27.79-03:29.47):
that she could make
these for people
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (03:29.47-03:31.77):
but she couldn't afford
one right because
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (03:31.77-03:34.15):
they came here with
nothing they were
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (03:34.15-03:35.85):
starting from scratch so for a long
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (03:35.85-03:37.55):
time she couldn't
afford one so when
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (03:37.55-03:39.51):
she could she bought
she bought bought
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (03:39.51-03:41.09):
home some pans.I
remember them being
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (03:41.09-03:43.35):
passed around.And
we were just kids.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (03:43.47-03:44.55):
We were thinking,you know,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (03:44.55-03:46.67):
we just wanted the
latest gadget.Why
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (03:46.67-03:49.11):
are mum and dad
getting us to like sit
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (03:49.11-03:51.31):
around and hold this
saucepan and pass
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (03:51.31-03:52.11):
it around?
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (03:51.91-03:53.21):
It wasn't until I was an adult that
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (03:53.21-03:54.87):
I understood what
it meant.And there's
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (03:54.87-03:56.71):
many different
things.But essentially,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (03:56.71-03:58.15):
you have a saucepan that big,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (03:58.15-03:59.35):
which is the one she's given me,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (03:59.35-04:00.15):
right?
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (04:00.23-04:01.55):
Yeah.still have it to this day,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (04:01.55-04:04.37):
it's in the cupboard.It
means two things.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (04:04.45-04:06.03):
It means you can
cook for your family
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (04:06.03-04:08.11):
because it's a large pan.Again,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (04:08.11-04:10.55):
I didn't see anything
of that calibre
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (04:10.55-04:12.39):
when I was in rural
India because there's
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (04:12.39-04:13.97):
no way you could
buy it.People don't
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (04:13.97-04:16.23):
have the income to
buy it.People would,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (04:16.23-04:17.03):
you know,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (04:16.65-04:19.17):
if they had people
visiting and they
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (04:19.17-04:21.63):
left behind cans,as in,you know,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (04:21.63-04:24.13):
like a tin can that had
beans or something,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (04:24.13-04:26.29):
and they would cook
on that.They would
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (04:26.29-04:29.63):
use that as a saucepan.On
a crude fire...
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (04:30.28-04:31.26):
And to have that fire,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (04:31.26-04:32.98):
they've been collecting
debris all day.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (04:33.06-04:34.12):
They've been
collecting dung.They've
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (04:34.12-04:35.38):
been collecting wood.So it's really
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (04:35.38-04:36.98):
polluting.You're
sitting there.The women
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (04:36.98-04:38.16):
are all sitting there coughing over
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (04:38.16-04:41.00):
these fumes.That
is how many people,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (04:41.00-04:42.16):
not just in India,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (04:42.28-04:47.00):
also Africa traditionally
cook.A saucepan
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (04:47.00-04:50.95):
is a huge step up.So that's why she
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (04:50.95-04:52.29):
didn't give me jewelry.You know,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (04:52.29-04:53.09):
she gave me,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (04:52.95-04:55.13):
and she never explained it,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (04:55.21-04:57.17):
but I came to
understand it later.You
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (04:57.17-04:59.21):
can feed your family.This means you
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (04:59.21-05:01.83):
have a source of good
electricity because
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (05:01.83-05:04.51):
you couldn't have a
plant that big where
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (05:04.51-05:05.83):
she grew up anyway,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (05:06.01-05:07.91):
because they're using
these small fires.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (05:08.77-05:10.01):
It's freedom,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (05:10.01-05:11.53):
it's liberty.And of
course she bought
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (05:11.53-05:12.37):
it with her own money,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (05:12.47-05:15.79):
which was just such
a huge thing.Yeah.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (05:15.82-05:17.62):
amazing,too.And I mean,in a way,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (05:17.62-05:21.94):
your parents move
from rural areas to
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (05:21.94-05:22.74):
cities,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (05:22.60-05:24.60):
to urban cities and
work in factories kind
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (05:24.60-05:28.10):
of replicates England's
Industrial Revolution
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (05:28.10-05:30.64):
or the American
Industrial Revolution,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (05:30.64-05:32.92):
which came later.And I think my all
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (05:32.92-05:35.91):
of my grandparents left Europe.came
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (05:35.91-05:38.15):
to America and worked
in factories because
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (05:38.15-05:40.81):
it was better.It's also interesting
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (05:40.81-05:42.57):
just when you say your mother comes
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (05:42.57-05:44.05):
home with a saucepan
that she bought
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (05:44.05-05:46.01):
with her own money
that she made and
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (05:46.01-05:47.69):
she's proud of it.It's
an interesting
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (05:47.69-05:49.57):
kind of refutation of Marx,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (05:49.57-05:53.17):
of the working class
being alienated
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (05:53.23-05:55.09):
from the product
of their labor.It's
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (05:55.09-05:57.09):
like she's kind of excited that she
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (05:57.09-06:00.63):
can give it to her
children.Yeah.Well,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (06:00.63-06:01.43):
you know,I mean,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (06:01.41-06:04.43):
that encapsulates a lot of what the
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (06:04.43-06:06.33):
book is about.But could you do,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (06:06.33-06:07.13):
you know,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (06:06.83-06:10.17):
what's kind of like
a thesis line of
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (06:10.17-06:11.65):
energy is life?
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (06:11.83-06:12.63):
Yeah.So,I mean,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (06:12.41-06:14.13):
it's kind of there
in the title.It's
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (06:14.13-06:15.21):
kind of there in that chapter about
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (06:15.21-06:16.29):
the source pen.But basically,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (06:16.29-06:18.37):
everything we do
underpins energy and
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (06:18.37-06:22.35):
is underpinned by
energy.And if we don't
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (06:22.35-06:23.95):
move up the ladder,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (06:23.95-06:25.71):
we don't move away
from a crude fire
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (06:25.71-06:27.39):
to,you know,cold,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (06:27.39-06:30.81):
gas to nuclear and
renewables.then we
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (06:30.81-06:32.43):
stay in a state of
poverty.And that's
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (06:32.43-06:33.23):
not,you know,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (06:33.31-06:34.49):
I don't think that's
a kind of tenable
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (06:34.49-06:35.85):
position that anyone
can hold.I think
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (06:35.85-06:37.05):
a lot of people hold
it because they've
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (06:37.05-06:38.65):
never had an experience of poverty.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (06:39.23-06:40.03):
And again,as I say,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (06:40.03-06:41.01):
I haven't really directly,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (06:41.17-06:41.97):
I've seen it,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (06:41.73-06:43.43):
but I haven't lived
it truly in a true
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (06:43.43-06:46.57):
way.But,you know,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (06:46.57-06:49.29):
I would like people
to read that book
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (06:49.43-06:53.03):
and take away from
it that we can step
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (06:53.03-06:56.27):
away from that mindset
that prosperity,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (06:56.27-06:57.77):
earning a wage,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (06:58.75-07:01.15):
capitalism even to
some degree is bad.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (07:01.43-07:03.27):
And those are all
lessons that I was
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (07:03.27-07:05.35):
taught constantly growing up here,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (07:05.35-07:08.85):
constantly.Who was teaching them to
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (07:08.85-07:09.65):
you?
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (07:09.15-07:09.95):
I mean,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (07:09.33-07:12.81):
was it the overall
educational system
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (07:12.91-07:14.23):
and kind of cultural system?
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (07:14.97-07:18.05):
Was it...people
more on the left or,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (07:18.05-07:18.85):
you know,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (07:18.33-07:20.45):
one of the things
that's interesting from,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (07:20.45-07:21.25):
you know,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (07:21.35-07:23.65):
between a kind of
British and an American
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (07:23.65-07:26.87):
context is that even even the right
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (07:26.87-07:28.19):
wingers,even the Tories,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (07:28.19-07:28.99):
you know,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (07:28.85-07:32.19):
in Britain seem to
be very comfortable
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (07:32.19-07:34.59):
kind of shitting on
capitalism and not
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (07:34.59-07:37.01):
being very individualistic.They
said
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (07:37.01-07:40.61):
that it goes.Yeah.Yeah,
but is it everywhere,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (07:40.61-07:41.43):
kind of,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (07:41.43-07:43.47):
in England and in
Europe more properly?
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (07:43.73-07:44.53):
Honestly,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (07:43.85-07:47.49):
I think it's
ubiquitous.And that makes
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (07:47.49-07:49.99):
it very hard to step
out of the thinking.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (07:50.05-07:51.69):
So when I was growing up,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (07:51.69-07:52.49):
you know,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (07:52.29-07:54.11):
there were adverts
on TV telling you
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (07:54.11-07:55.83):
to use less water.I mean,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (07:55.83-07:57.33):
really silly stuff like,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (07:57.33-07:58.73):
when you're brushing your teeth,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (07:58.73-08:00.55):
make sure you turn off
the tap.And that's
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (08:00.55-08:01.49):
just one example,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (08:01.49-08:03.71):
but it was so
constant.You did learn
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (08:03.71-08:05.75):
it at school.Not a huge part of it,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (08:05.75-08:08.15):
but it was in there.I don't want to
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (08:08.15-08:09.71):
say people shamed you for not doing
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (08:09.71-08:10.91):
it,but it was,you know,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (08:10.91-08:12.63):
you got told off if
you left the lights
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (08:12.63-08:14.57):
on when you left the
room.That was how
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (08:14.57-08:16.77):
it was.I still think
it's like that,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (08:16.77-08:18.03):
but I think there's
more pushback now.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (08:18.35-08:19.15):
But absolutely,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (08:18.97-08:20.79):
it's come from left
and right.It's come
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (08:20.79-08:22.29):
from left and
right.There's this whole
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (08:22.29-08:24.29):
kind of...It's the
backdrop.It's just...
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (08:24.57-08:27.72):
And it's a very much...like,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (08:27.72-08:29.64):
I want to say it's
almost like a purity
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (08:29.64-08:31.32):
thing.I think some
countries have it
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (08:31.32-08:32.28):
worse.I think,for example,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (08:32.28-08:33.08):
Germany,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (08:32.96-08:35.12):
it's worse.And you
really do get shamed
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (08:35.12-08:37.84):
there for certain.They
have a real historical
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (08:37.84-08:39.56):
problem with purity,right?
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (08:39.60-08:42.04):
We've taken purity
too far.Yeah.Yeah.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (08:42.46-08:45.96):
Yeah.And it's not
as policed here.So
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (08:45.96-08:46.76):
for example,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (08:46.72-08:47.80):
like with the recycling and stuff,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (08:47.80-08:48.62):
it's not as policed,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (08:48.62-08:51.62):
but it's cultural.It's
taught to you
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (08:51.62-08:53.66):
everywhere.And then
because I also joined
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (08:53.66-08:55.04):
environmental groups,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (08:55.04-08:56.94):
that's their sole
message.So it's all
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (08:56.94-08:59.26):
about capitalism is
bad.Live with less.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (08:59.62-09:00.54):
Why are you wasteful?
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (09:00.66-09:02.64):
We're wasteful.And underpinning all
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (09:02.64-09:04.28):
of that is just
humans are bad.Humans
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (09:04.28-09:07.16):
shouldn't be living
on the planet.Is
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (09:07.16-09:08.74):
it,you know,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (09:08.74-09:10.08):
and I want to talk about Extinction
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (09:10.08-09:12.62):
Rebellion as a
particular group because
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (09:12.62-09:14.68):
they're fascinating
in a moment.But,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (09:14.68-09:17.52):
you know,in the
environmentalist movement,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (09:17.52-09:18.44):
as you encountered it,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (09:18.44-09:20.86):
or even in just that larger kind of
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (09:20.86-09:23.18):
superstructure that's
all-encompassing,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (09:23.18-09:25.86):
I mean,is it that people are bad,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (09:25.86-09:28.04):
so fewer people will be better,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (09:28.04-09:30.60):
but also,you know,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (09:30.60-09:31.74):
it's just the idea that,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (09:31.74-09:32.54):
like,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (09:32.00-09:36.14):
even if we had unlimited power that
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (09:36.14-09:37.98):
was non-polluting
and that did nothing
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (09:37.98-09:40.00):
bad,didn't use up any energy,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (09:40.40-09:42.46):
we should still control
our use because
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (09:42.46-09:45.06):
it's unseemly.I mean,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (09:45.06-09:46.88):
is there almost a
religious aspect like
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (09:46.88-09:47.68):
we need to be?
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (09:47.30-09:48.10):
Oh,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (09:47.30-09:50.52):
absolutely.Absolutely.So
when I first started
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (09:50.52-09:51.34):
questioning nuclear,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (09:51.34-09:52.70):
I hadn't come around
to it because I
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (09:52.70-09:55.34):
believed a lot of nonsense about it
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (09:55.34-09:56.16):
for a long time,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (09:56.16-09:57.48):
but even when I started questioning
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (09:57.48-10:00.51):
it,people Some people
in the movement,中文对照导读
这一段从节目开场和 Zion Lights 的身份说起。她曾是 Extinction Rebellion 的发言人，现在主张扩大核能，并出版了《Energy Is Life》。主持人先问她为什么用母亲留下的一个平底锅作为书的开头。Lights 解释，平底锅只有在有稳定能源时才真正有用；她父母来自印度农村，那里有些村庄仍然缺电，居民可能只能用发电机，或者在粗糙的明火上用铁罐头盒做饭。为了生火，人们收集木柴、杂物和牛粪，烟雾让做饭的人咳嗽。她由此意识到，能源贫困不是收入数字的问题，还牵涉电网、铁路、医院和其他基础设施。她的母亲曾在伯明翰工厂制造锅具，因为职业安全条件差而一只耳朵失聪，但仍把工作和亲手做出的物品看成收入、尊严和照料家庭的来源。谈话随后转向她从小听到的「资本主义不好」「少消费、少浪费」等观念，以及她后来对环保运动把节制变成道德要求的质疑。
10:00-20:00
English ASR original
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (10:00.51-10:02.17):
quite prominent figures,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (10:02.23-10:03.03):
would say,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (10:02.49-10:03.97):
I'm not actually
against technology.I
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (10:03.97-10:06.49):
just don't think humans should have
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (10:06.49-10:08.65):
the right to have
access to that.And
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (10:08.65-10:10.93):
it is a weird sort
of self-flagellation.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (10:11.35-10:12.15):
We stay poor,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (10:12.15-10:13.71):
we stay struggling.And
if you look at
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (10:13.71-10:16.39):
the people that most
advocate for living
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (10:16.39-10:17.49):
on the land,living off grid,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (10:17.61-10:20.09):
they are advocating for
a kind of suffering
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (10:20.09-10:22.59):
hard lifestyle.And
I always say that
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (10:22.59-10:23.39):
this is,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (10:23.03-10:27.07):
it's fascinating because
that is a product
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (10:27.07-10:29.79):
of prosperity.People
who live in poverty
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (10:29.79-10:32.11):
don't want that.That's
how they live.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (10:32.41-10:33.77):
The people who've grown
up with everything
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (10:33.77-10:37.33):
and all the privilege
are...idolizing
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (10:37.33-10:40.05):
a way of life that
nobody else would.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (10:40.41-10:42.27):
Is it just a form of guilt,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (10:42.27-10:43.07):
do you think,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (10:43.09-10:45.95):
of that you get
raised in a way where,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (10:46.05-10:48.75):
and it can be within
England or within
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (10:48.75-10:50.91):
the UK or within
Europe or within the
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (10:50.91-10:53.17):
whatever we want to
call the West for
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (10:53.17-10:55.99):
this moment,et cetera.Is it just,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (10:55.99-10:56.79):
well,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (10:56.15-10:57.63):
I have more and other
people have less
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (10:57.71-10:58.87):
and I feel guilty?
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (10:58.91-11:02.23):
I think it's guilt.And
that's also why
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (11:02.23-11:05.40):
it's worse in Germany.I mean,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (11:05.40-11:07.06):
I think it's interesting and I have
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (11:07.06-11:09.52):
read about and thought about this a
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (11:09.52-11:11.02):
lot because I think people can come
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (11:11.02-11:13.06):
at it with different
reasons.But ultimately,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (11:13.06-11:15.10):
I do think there's a
lot of guilt about
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (11:15.10-11:17.74):
just doing well and just,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (11:17.74-11:18.54):
you know,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (11:18.24-11:19.64):
living well and
having what you need.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (11:19.88-11:21.64):
And I wouldn't say
that it's about...
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (11:23.22-11:24.78):
empathy for people
in poverty because
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (11:24.78-11:25.66):
if it was,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (11:25.66-11:27.54):
you would want them
to leave poverty.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (11:28.14-11:29.44):
I would give that
example.I would say,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (11:29.44-11:31.64):
when I was trying
to balance the two
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (11:31.64-11:32.44):
views,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (11:32.12-11:35.62):
my parents escaped
this.I literally had
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (11:35.62-11:37.84):
the leader of the
Green Party at the
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (11:37.84-11:39.72):
time,I was on a debate with her,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (11:40.41-11:42.15):
And she said,but they were happier,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (11:42.15-11:44.97):
Zion.And I was so
shocked that I didn't
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (11:44.97-11:46.91):
say anything.I didn't say anything.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (11:47.01-11:49.07):
I had to go away and
process what she
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (11:49.07-11:50.89):
just told me.She said,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (11:50.89-11:52.05):
they don't have
mental health crises
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (11:52.05-11:54.37):
like we do.Are you
telling me that in
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (11:54.37-12:00.05):
a society where the
infant mortality
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (12:00.05-12:01.51):
rate is so high,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (12:02.33-12:04.25):
and the respiratory rates are high,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (12:04.25-12:06.83):
and even rabies rates
and snake bites
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (12:06.83-12:08.49):
because they don't have
access to medication
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (12:08.49-12:09.51):
or healthcare,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (12:10.27-12:11.69):
that they have
better mental health.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (12:11.73-12:12.53):
I mean,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (12:11.85-12:13.59):
they don't have
statistics.I can't show
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (12:13.59-12:14.91):
you statistics to prove
otherwise because
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (12:14.91-12:17.61):
no one is going four hours from the
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (12:17.61-12:20.39):
nearest airport to
go and gather the
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (12:20.39-12:22.73):
data.But I would not
say that they're
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (12:22.73-12:24.89):
more happy.Yeah,
did you ask your parents?
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (12:24.97-12:25.77):
Were they happier?
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (12:26.07-12:27.19):
Well,I have,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (12:27.19-12:28.45):
actually.And it's
interesting because
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (12:28.45-12:29.37):
when I was a kid,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (12:29.37-12:30.91):
they always said they
wanted to go back.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (12:31.65-12:33.35):
But that's because,you know,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (12:33.35-12:35.95):
they're from a culture where family
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (12:35.95-12:38.11):
is so important.And
they left behind
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (12:38.11-12:39.91):
all their family.So they lost their
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (12:39.91-12:41.75):
parents while they
were over here.They
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (12:41.75-12:43.41):
lost...siblings while
they're over here.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (12:43.41-12:45.35):
There was always some letter in the
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (12:45.35-12:46.23):
post from India,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (12:46.57-12:48.39):
somebody else has
died.They couldn't
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (12:48.39-12:49.81):
go to funerals.They didn't have the
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (12:49.81-12:51.13):
money to constantly
go back and forth.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (12:51.13-12:53.01):
They didn't go back
for a long time.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (12:53.01-12:53.81):
And actually,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (12:53.69-12:54.81):
they didn't go back
for something like
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (12:54.81-12:55.61):
10,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (12:55.21-12:57.31):
15 years.And then they took me as a
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (12:57.31-13:00.95):
teenager.We spent two weeks in this
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (13:00.95-13:01.81):
village off-grid,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (13:01.81-13:03.95):
and they were stressed
out the entire
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (13:03.95-13:05.78):
time and they wanted to go home.And
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (13:05.78-13:07.94):
we only stayed because,you know,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (13:07.94-13:09.22):
people expect us to
be there.And they
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (13:09.22-13:10.56):
loved us being there
and they're sharing
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (13:10.56-13:12.30):
their food.We felt
guilty for eating
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (13:12.30-13:13.68):
the food when we
could see how little
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (13:13.68-13:14.70):
they had.And again,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (13:14.70-13:19.26):
it's not something that
just money resolves.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (13:19.42-13:20.48):
Like you need the infrastructure,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (13:20.48-13:21.58):
which means bringing
in the electricity
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (13:21.58-13:22.80):
as well,but the infrastructure,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (13:22.80-13:24.66):
because you can give them money,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (13:24.74-13:26.82):
but if they can't
get somewhere to buy
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (13:26.82-13:27.62):
more rice,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (13:27.52-13:29.50):
they don't have more
rice.They're rice
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (13:29.50-13:30.90):
farmers.That's what
they do.They grow
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (13:30.90-13:33.20):
rice.and it varies
depending completely
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (13:33.20-13:36.60):
weather dependent you
know um vocation.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (13:36.60-13:38.88):
But I remember walking,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (13:38.88-13:42.24):
just walking in Santa.It was so hot
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (13:42.24-13:43.04):
there,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (13:42.50-13:44.36):
it's 40 degree
heat.I'm walking in the
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (13:44.36-13:47.83):
heat and my dad pulls me away And I
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (13:47.83-13:49.17):
said,what are you doing?
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (13:49.29-13:50.09):
You know,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (13:49.45-13:51.31):
it's like a violent
motion.And he thought
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (13:51.31-13:52.11):
he saw,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (13:51.73-13:53.35):
and maybe he did see a snake in the
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (13:53.35-13:55.01):
grass.And they do
have a lot of snakes,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (13:55.01-13:55.81):
right?
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (13:55.31-13:57.27):
They live in nature.They
don't see the
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (13:57.27-13:59.17):
nature the way that
we see nature.It's
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (13:59.17-13:59.97):
like,oh,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (13:59.57-14:01.45):
so lovely.And we want more.No,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (14:01.45-14:02.25):
they,they,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (14:02.05-14:05.53):
it's a war because
I had a cousin that
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (14:05.53-14:06.77):
was lost to a snake
bite there actually.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (14:06.79-14:08.15):
And it's a really
horrific death that
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (14:08.15-14:10.17):
was described to me
in detail because
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (14:10.17-14:11.85):
everyone just gathered
round and tried
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (14:11.85-14:13.59):
to make it easier for him.That is,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (14:13.59-14:14.41):
yeah.I mean,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (14:14.41-14:17.94):
the idea of nature.the
idea of nature
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (14:17.94-14:19.76):
as a place you want
to visit and hang
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (14:19.76-14:21.64):
out and maybe return to is,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (14:21.64-14:22.44):
you know,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (14:22.54-14:25.06):
really is a 19th
century creation of,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (14:25.06-14:25.86):
you know,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (14:25.66-14:27.52):
people like Shelley
and Keats after,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (14:27.52-14:29.92):
you know,they had more money,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (14:29.92-14:30.72):
right?
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (14:30.66-14:32.78):
Right.I think,right,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (14:32.78-14:34.66):
with the nature is red in tooth and
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (14:34.66-14:35.46):
claw,right?
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (14:35.60-14:36.62):
That's right.But
basically to say my
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (14:36.62-14:40.80):
parents,after that,
they admitted it,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (14:40.80-14:42.40):
that they couldn't live there after
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (14:42.40-14:44.56):
having escaped that
because they couldn't,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (14:45.19-14:46.51):
settled with the fact that,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (14:46.51-14:47.31):
yeah,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (14:46.71-14:47.85):
you might get bitten by a snake.And
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (14:47.85-14:49.01):
the people there
live with it because
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (14:49.01-14:51.07):
it's their reality.If
you have a choice,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (14:51.07-14:54.71):
you will not choose
that.You will not
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (14:54.71-14:56.31):
give up everything.Even though they
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (14:56.31-14:57.65):
desperately wanted
to be back with their
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (14:57.65-14:59.03):
family,they always said,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (14:59.03-14:59.99):
when we retire,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (14:59.99-15:00.79):
we'll go back there.Well,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (15:00.69-15:02.03):
they've been retired
for a long time
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (15:02.03-15:04.81):
and they don't even
visit.They don't
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (15:04.81-15:05.61):
want to go back
there.What do you think?
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (15:06.37-15:09.09):
In Europe,more broadly,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (15:09.09-15:11.19):
or let's say the former EU,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (15:11.19-15:13.97):
so we can include Britain in it for
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (15:13.97-15:18.87):
a bit,you mentioned
that a lot of people,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (15:18.87-15:21.79):
even Greens,but also more broadly,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (15:21.91-15:24.49):
they don't want people
in poorer nations
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (15:24.49-15:27.97):
to have abundant
energy or access to
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (15:27.97-15:29.83):
this lifestyle.And
then increasingly,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (15:29.83-15:32.35):
they don't want those
people to migrate
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (15:32.35-15:34.13):
or to emigrate.you know,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (15:34.13-15:37.71):
to the UK or to
Europe.And in America,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (15:37.71-15:40.05):
we have a version
of this.How do you
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (15:40.05-15:40.85):
explain that?
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (15:40.65-15:41.63):
Like,it's one thing,okay,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (15:41.63-15:43.59):
I feel guilty about
everything I have
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (15:43.59-15:45.31):
and other people don't
have.So I'm going
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (15:45.31-15:47.67):
to torture myself.You know,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (15:47.67-15:48.49):
if you're raised in a,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (15:48.95-15:50.55):
particularly in
Christian religions,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (15:50.55-15:51.35):
but others,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (15:50.95-15:52.87):
you feel guilty.So
you make yourself
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (15:52.87-15:53.67):
feel bad,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (15:53.67-15:55.55):
but not that bad.But
then what do you
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (15:55.55-15:56.97):
do with this idea of like,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (15:56.97-15:58.49):
okay,I feel guilty,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (15:58.61-16:00.45):
but I'm going to do
whatever I can to
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (16:00.45-16:02.01):
make sure that the developing world
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (16:02.01-16:05.00):
never reaches is.a
higher standard of
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (16:05.00-16:05.80):
living.I mean,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (16:05.78-16:07.40):
I think it's just a
cognitive dissonance.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (16:07.54-16:08.92):
People just don't realize how other
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (16:08.92-16:09.72):
people are living,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (16:09.78-16:12.82):
even though we do
have a relative kind
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (16:12.82-16:14.48):
of poverty here.And
I appreciate that.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (16:14.54-16:15.74):
And that's where a lot
of that frustration
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (16:15.74-16:17.62):
is coming from.Often they'll say,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (16:17.62-16:18.42):
well,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (16:17.78-16:20.44):
we need more jobs or
houses or whatever.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (16:20.50-16:22.78):
These are systemic
issues.They're not
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (16:22.78-16:24.96):
to do with the number
of people coming
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (16:24.96-16:25.76):
in.In fact,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (16:25.36-16:27.28):
a lot of them fill
vacancies that aren't
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (16:27.28-16:28.08):
otherwise filled,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (16:27.94-16:30.00):
especially in the NHS and stuff.But
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (16:30.00-16:31.84):
I can understand why
they kind of connect
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (16:31.84-16:33.48):
those two things and
they get frustrated.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (16:33.64-16:34.82):
It's easy to just pick.I mean,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (16:34.82-16:36.02):
that's always happened
across history.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (16:36.24-16:40.27):
We'll pick that
group.But...Honestly,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (16:40.27-16:43.13):
I think a lot of these things,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (16:43.13-16:44.79):
and it's the same
with nuclear.People
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (16:44.79-16:46.85):
asked me,why were
you against nuclear?
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (16:46.85-16:48.87):
I might say waste,
I might say Chernobyl,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (16:48.87-16:49.67):
but the truth is,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (16:50.07-16:51.39):
I didn't have an
argument.It was just
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (16:51.39-16:53.65):
a feeling.It's just a feeling.And I
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (16:53.65-16:55.31):
think that's all it
is.It's a feeling
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (16:55.31-16:57.09):
of guilt.That's what
the environmentalists
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (16:57.09-16:58.73):
have.The other side
that say we don't
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (16:58.73-16:59.53):
want people coming in,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (16:59.37-17:00.87):
it's just a feeling
that if there were
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (17:00.87-17:01.67):
less of us,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (17:01.57-17:03.11):
things would be
better.which actually
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (17:03.11-17:04.61):
historically has
never really been the
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (17:04.61-17:05.41):
case,right?
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (17:05.11-17:06.19):
Like we have more progress,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (17:06.19-17:07.85):
more prosperity when
there's more people.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (17:08.29-17:09.55):
Nobody believes
that.That's one of the
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (17:09.55-17:10.77):
most controversial things that I've
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (17:10.77-17:13.23):
ever said that I've
had so much pushback
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (17:13.23-17:16.63):
on.Because even though all the data
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (17:16.63-17:17.43):
shows that,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (17:17.45-17:19.69):
people just for some
reason have a feeling,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (17:20.61-17:22.55):
but we're bad,
so how can that be true?
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (17:22.71-17:23.91):
If there's too many of us,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (17:23.91-17:28.14):
that can't be
true.Right.And it's very
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (17:28.14-17:30.70):
hard to unpick that and debate with
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (17:30.70-17:32.56):
these people or get
them to see your
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (17:32.56-17:35.16):
opinion because
it's just a feeling,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (17:35.58-17:37.36):
like almost like a
religious belief.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (17:37.54-17:38.94):
And you can't-So how did it,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (17:38.94-17:39.92):
well,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (17:39.92-17:42.08):
let's talk about you
and joining Extinction
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (17:42.08-17:43.18):
Rebellion.I mean,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (17:43.18-17:44.84):
you were involved
in various kinds of
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (17:44.84-17:47.62):
environmentalist
causes and certainly
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (17:47.62-17:49.38):
more so than in the United States,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (17:49.50-17:52.42):
both anything across
the Atlantic has
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (17:52.42-17:55.50):
like actual green parties
or environmentalist
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (17:55.50-17:57.34):
movements that
really have political
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (17:57.34-18:00.90):
power and can express that.But what
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (18:00.90-18:03.36):
drew you to a group like Extinction
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (18:03.36-18:04.16):
Rebellion?
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (18:04.12-18:06.10):
And could you,for an
American audience,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (18:06.20-18:08.04):
just explain a
little bit about what
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (18:08.04-18:09.02):
it is?
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (18:09.32-18:13.40):
So Extinction Rebellion
posits itself
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (18:13.40-18:16.02):
as a group that's
there to fight climate
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (18:16.02-18:18.46):
change uh very good
branding all the
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (18:18.50-18:20.38):
branding is very organic
a lot of creative
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (18:20.38-18:23.36):
people were involved
um you know they've
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (18:23.36-18:25.22):
got the extinction
symbol which they
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (18:25.22-18:26.76):
took on loan actually
from an artist
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (18:26.76-18:28.78):
who would decide
where where you could
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (18:28.78-18:30.42):
use it and what
literature or not like
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (18:30.42-18:33.90):
is very organized
in that way um and
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (18:33.90-18:36.42):
yeah the entire premise is you know
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (18:36.42-18:37.84):
we want to protect
the planet we want
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (18:37.84-18:39.42):
to protect people
and the life on it
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (18:39.74-19:09.72):
Hence,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (19:09.72-19:10.96):
Extinction Rebellion.They
also achieved
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (19:10.96-19:13.98):
that goal.The third
one was the important
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (19:13.98-19:18.12):
one because the rule
was to go beyond
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (19:18.12-19:20.94):
politics and set
up a fairer system.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (19:21.08-19:22.74):
And their idea of a
fairer system was
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (19:22.74-19:24.26):
something like citizens'assemblies.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (19:25.33-19:27.05):
where people make decisions instead
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (19:27.05-19:29.75):
of like a broad
government.But actually
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (19:29.75-19:32.39):
what I realized from
hanging out with
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (19:32.39-19:33.53):
the people that came up with this,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (19:33.63-19:35.85):
the small group
that sat down before
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (19:35.85-19:38.25):
I joined and wrote this out,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (19:39.25-19:40.05):
it was,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (19:40.13-19:42.69):
They want political
revolution.And I
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (19:42.69-19:44.99):
would even go so far as saying it's
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (19:44.99-19:46.55):
not really about
climate change.That's
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (19:46.55-19:49.27):
just a useful lever.And
it's certainly
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (19:49.27-19:51.63):
not about protecting
people.In fact,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (19:51.63-19:53.47):
people are the problem.That is what
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (19:53.47-19:56.71):
they would say.But
I was attracted to
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (19:56.71-20:00.45):
it because I believed
their marketing.中文对照导读
这一段继续讨论贫困、自然和环保运动。Lights 说，富裕社会里有人把离网生活和回归土地想象成理想，但真正处于贫困的人通常不会选择缺电、缺交通和缺医疗的生活。她回忆父母带她回到印度一个离网村庄的经历：高温、蛇和缺乏基础设施让这次访问与浪漫化的自然想象完全不同；她还提到一位死于蛇咬的亲戚。她认为，部分欧洲环保主义者一方面因自己的富裕而愧疚，另一方面又不愿看到发展中国家达到更高生活水平，甚至把住房、就业和公共服务压力简单归咎于移民。她把这称为一种认知失调，并提出「人口更多是否也可能带来更多进步和繁荣」的反向问题。谈话随后进入 Extinction Rebellion：组织以气候行动、保护地球和公民大会为口号，但 Lights 后来认为其实际诉求更像政治革命，而且没有给出停止天然气之后如何供电的答案。
20:00-30:00
English ASR original
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (20:00.85-20:02.73):
And when I realized
the marketing was
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (20:02.73-20:04.23):
convincing but fake,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (20:04.23-20:06.12):
then I stepped away.Why,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (20:06.12-20:06.96):
I mean,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (20:06.96-20:09.76):
and the shift in kind
of system changes
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (20:09.98-20:14.00):
is one from a kind
of liberal political
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (20:14.00-20:18.66):
system with capitalism
or free enterprises,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (20:18.76-20:20.34):
the economic organizing principle,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (20:20.54-20:22.74):
to a much more regimented,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (20:23.32-20:26.26):
socialist may not
be quite the right
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (20:26.26-20:27.06):
word,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (20:26.60-20:29.12):
but it turns out it's
an authoritarian system
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (20:29.50-20:32.76):
where people have less
scope for individual
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (20:32.76-20:35.54):
choices on everything.Yeah,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (20:35.54-20:39.50):
basically.But again,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (20:39.50-20:41.48):
it was marketed
very cleverly.It was
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (20:41.48-20:43.24):
sort of people will
have more...In fact,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (20:43.24-20:44.62):
this was a talking
point that was given.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (20:44.94-20:45.86):
When you go on TV,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (20:45.86-20:48.60):
say more democracy.We
want more democracy.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (20:48.72-20:50.46):
But what they actually
wanted was for
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (20:50.46-20:52.36):
them to be in charge
because everybody
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (20:52.36-20:54.68):
else has ruined the
planet and they're
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (20:54.68-20:55.98):
the good guys and
they're going to fix
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (20:55.98-20:58.78):
it by telling you how
to live.And that's
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (20:58.78-21:00.40):
not an exaggeration.Some
of the things
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (21:00.40-21:02.50):
I would say
about...People shouldn't
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (21:02.50-21:04.12):
be allowed to take
flights.People shouldn't
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (21:04.12-21:06.08):
be allowed to go
in their cars.It is
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (21:06.08-21:06.88):
quite,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (21:06.46-21:08.24):
those are the actual views that you
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (21:08.24-21:10.84):
wouldn't see written
anywhere.And that's
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (21:10.84-21:12.96):
where it really clashed
with me thinking,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (21:13.12-21:14.64):
well,you know,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (21:14.64-21:17.40):
having those things
is what gives you
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (21:17.40-21:19.62):
a better quality of
life.It means you
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (21:19.62-21:21.44):
can get to the hospital.Oh,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (21:21.44-21:23.40):
we'll just have buses that can take
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (21:23.40-21:24.96):
everyone everywhere.Okay.It's
a nice
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (21:24.96-21:26.74):
idea.We do have buses,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (21:26.74-21:29.94):
but it takes away a
lot of freedom from
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (21:29.94-21:32.34):
people.But again,
I think the idea is,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (21:32.34-21:33.14):
well,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (21:32.60-21:34.54):
they deserve that.They
deserve to suffer
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (21:34.54-21:36.02):
because look what they
did to the planet.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (21:36.35-21:38.03):
Let's talk a little
bit about nuclear
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (21:38.03-21:40.71):
and your kind of migration towards,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (21:40.71-21:41.51):
yeah,you know what,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (21:41.31-21:43.05):
nuclear energy is actually the,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (21:43.05-21:43.85):
you know,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (21:43.61-21:45.49):
it's the source that we need now,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (21:45.49-21:47.79):
really,you know,ramped up,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (21:47.79-21:50.49):
scaled up tremendously.And
other forms
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (21:50.49-21:53.79):
of renewable energy
and non-carbon energy
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (21:53.79-21:54.89):
can get there,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (21:54.89-21:57.51):
but we need nuclear.You
had said before,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (21:57.51-21:58.31):
you know,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (21:57.73-22:00.65):
the kind of anti-nuclear
philosophy.it's
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (22:00.65-22:01.45):
a feeling,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (22:01.25-22:04.85):
it's a vibe.Where
does that come from?
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (22:04.85-22:05.95):
You know,the idea that,well,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (22:05.95-22:08.15):
nuclear is,you know,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (22:08.15-22:09.39):
nuclear is not just bad,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (22:09.39-22:11.13):
but we really need to get rid of it
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (22:11.13-22:13.89):
as it exists now.And
the reason I bring
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (22:13.89-22:16.31):
this up in a United States context,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (22:16.31-22:18.05):
there were,in the early 60s,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (22:18.05-22:19.47):
there were two big
student groups.There
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (22:19.47-22:20.71):
was a right-wing group called Young
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (22:20.71-22:22.49):
Americans for Freedom.And there was
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (22:22.49-22:23.29):
a group called Young
Americans for Freedom.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (22:22.49-22:23.43):
And there was a
group-wing group called
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (22:23.43-22:25.11):
Students for a
Democratic Society.And
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (22:25.11-22:26.95):
in their founding statements,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (22:26.95-22:28.45):
which came out within
a couple of months
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (22:28.45-22:29.25):
of each other,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (22:29.45-22:31.75):
they both took for
granted.And I mean,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (22:31.75-22:34.07):
it's kind of
remarkable.This is in 1962.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (22:34.39-22:36.45):
They both took for
granted that we would
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (22:36.45-22:40.23):
have cheap,renewable,
non-polluting energy,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (22:40.43-22:41.81):
and it would be nuclear energy.That
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (22:41.81-22:43.99):
was like the background assumption.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (22:44.37-22:47.37):
And certainly by
the end of the 60s,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (22:47.49-22:49.53):
nuclear energy was going nowhere in
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (22:49.53-22:52.20):
America.So like I and,you know,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (22:52.20-22:53.46):
and I realize,you know,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (22:53.46-22:55.04):
Britain has a
different history with
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (22:55.04-22:57.24):
this.But how does nuclear energy go
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (22:57.24-23:00.46):
from being the future
to being the one
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (23:00.46-23:02.36):
thing that we
absolutely have to get
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (23:02.36-23:03.16):
rid of?
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (23:03.63-23:06.47):
I think this shift
happened well before
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (23:06.47-23:07.27):
I was born,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (23:07.23-23:09.83):
and then obviously
I inherited it for
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (23:09.83-23:12.27):
a while.Certainly a lot of the fear
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (23:12.27-23:15.01):
from speaking to
older people in those
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (23:15.01-23:17.67):
movements was from
conflating it with
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (23:17.67-23:18.47):
weapons,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (23:18.11-23:20.39):
but I still think
that that was done
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (23:20.39-23:22.21):
deliberately.I think
basically there
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (23:22.21-23:25.95):
were several parties
that funded it.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (23:25.95-23:28.39):
We know that some of
these environmental
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (23:28.39-23:29.55):
groups like Sierra Club,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (23:29.55-23:30.49):
which is American,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (23:30.49-23:33.28):
and Greenpeace and
other groups were
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (23:33.28-23:35.32):
known to take
donations from certain
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (23:35.32-23:36.32):
industries,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (23:36.32-23:38.12):
including fossil-related
industries,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (23:38.94-23:41.42):
and that Sierra Club was founded on
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (23:41.42-23:42.34):
the basis of,well,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (23:42.34-23:43.44):
we're an environmental group,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (23:43.56-23:44.94):
but one of our biggest
policies is to
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (23:44.94-23:46.26):
campaign against
nuclear.We also know
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (23:46.26-23:47.48):
that they were very successful,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (23:47.48-23:49.48):
not just in political lobbying here
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (23:49.48-23:51.68):
across Europe and in America,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (23:51.68-23:56.00):
but in changing public perception.I
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (23:56.00-23:57.22):
think that's the main thing,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (23:57.22-23:58.34):
that it was almost like a psy-op,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (23:58.46-23:59.96):
I think.Because it
was before my time,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (23:59.96-24:02.34):
it's hard to really
know.But it's interesting
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (24:02.34-24:05.04):
when I have spoken
to people about their
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (24:05.04-24:07.02):
fears and the same
fears I absorbed.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (24:07.64-24:08.44):
You know,for example,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (24:08.16-24:10.00):
about waste.If you say
nuclear to anyone,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (24:10.00-24:11.32):
even today,waste.Yeah,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (24:11.32-24:12.42):
what are you going
to do with the waste?
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (24:12.62-24:14.94):
That stuff never
goes away.You never
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (24:14.94-24:17.36):
hear that when someone says coal.If
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (24:17.36-24:18.16):
you say coal,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (24:18.08-24:20.86):
no one says
waste.Right.breathing in
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (24:20.86-24:22.12):
that waste.It's
stored in the Earth's
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (24:22.12-24:23.48):
atmosphere.We know
it's a problem.It's
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (24:23.48-24:26.00):
polluting.It's right
down there at the
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (24:26.00-24:27.34):
bottom of the...Fine,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (24:27.34-24:29.12):
if you have nothing
else and you need
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (24:29.12-24:30.32):
to escape poverty,yes,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (24:30.32-24:32.36):
it's useful.It's cheap.You can burn
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (24:32.44-24:34.06):
a lot of it.That's
what's happening.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (24:34.06-24:35.22):
But even those countries,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (24:35.22-24:36.02):
India,China,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (24:35.78-24:37.08):
are trying to transition to cleaner
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (24:37.08-24:38.46):
fuels because they
know there's an immense
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (24:38.46-24:40.09):
cost there.and even
they are building
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (24:40.09-24:43.11):
nuclear.So why would
the countries in
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (24:43.11-24:44.85):
the West reject it?
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (24:45.45-24:47.25):
You haven't seen that there,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (24:47.25-24:48.05):
right?
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (24:47.47-24:48.55):
You haven't seen it
in China.You haven't
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (24:48.55-24:49.85):
seen it in India.They
just haven't even
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (24:49.85-24:51.81):
had the movement.They
haven't had the
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (24:51.81-24:53.27):
environmental groups
and the lobbying.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (24:53.41-24:56.19):
So I think there
were bad actors that
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (24:56.19-24:59.37):
put money into these groups Some of
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (24:59.37-25:01.49):
them founded the
groups on this basis
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (25:01.49-25:03.81):
so that they would
do the environmental
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (25:03.81-25:04.61):
stuff,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (25:04.57-25:06.29):
but include in that
lobbying against nuclear.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (25:06.37-25:07.93):
And even to the point
that nuclear got
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (25:07.93-25:09.97):
put in its own category
instead of being
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (25:09.97-25:11.43):
classed as renewable,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (25:11.97-25:13.31):
that's quite clever framing because
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (25:13.31-25:14.49):
not all renewables are,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (25:14.49-25:16.55):
I would say that's not a good term.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (25:16.71-25:18.93):
Some are reliable,
some are less reliable,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (25:18.93-25:19.97):
some are polluting.I mean,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (25:19.97-25:22.44):
biomass is very
polluting.but it's classed
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (25:22.44-25:23.78):
as renewable.It gets the subsidies,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (25:23.78-25:24.58):
right?
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (25:24.16-25:26.74):
I think it's really
interesting.Those
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (25:26.74-25:28.86):
decisions were made
deliberately.I don't
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (25:28.86-25:30.58):
think it was
accidental.I think they
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (25:30.58-25:31.76):
were made deliberately years before
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (25:31.76-25:33.38):
I was born and then
they just carried
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (25:33.38-25:35.68):
on.I think pop culture
helped to carry
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (25:35.68-25:36.98):
it on.You know,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (25:36.98-25:39.04):
you had the bad depiction
in The Simpsons.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (25:39.14-25:40.58):
I grew up with that.It's not that I
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (25:40.58-25:41.96):
watched The Simpsons
and turned against
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (25:41.96-25:44.20):
nuclear.It just
reinforced ideas I had.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (25:44.62-25:45.42):
Of course,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (25:44.90-25:46.92):
the industry person's
the most evil.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (25:47.48-25:48.28):
You know,of course,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (25:48.06-25:50.16):
the nuclear workers
messing around and
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (25:50.16-25:52.64):
being dangerous.All
the fish have three
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (25:52.64-25:54.44):
eyes.All the fish
have three eyes.The
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (25:54.44-25:56.98):
waste is green liquid
in a yellow barrel.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (25:57.20-25:59.06):
And I'll tell you
something.I just started
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (25:59.06-26:00.56):
watching this sci-fi
series recently.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (26:00.84-26:02.28):
I'm really into sci-fi.And a lot of
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (26:02.28-26:03.20):
people said,go and watch this,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (26:03.20-26:04.94):
go and watch this.It's called Dark,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (26:04.94-26:05.74):
right?
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (26:05.32-26:10.84):
And it's German.It's
in German.Don't
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (26:10.84-26:11.76):
listen for a minute
if you don't want
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (26:11.76-26:12.56):
spoilers,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (26:12.14-26:15.42):
but this shocked
me.This is a new series
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (26:15.42-26:18.12):
and the entire premise
is that there's
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (26:18.12-26:20.92):
a nuclear power plant
that has caused
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (26:22.69-26:24.33):
really bad things to happen without
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (26:24.33-26:26.23):
giving everything
away.And it starts
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (26:26.23-26:28.01):
by panning out on a
nuclear plant.And
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (26:28.01-26:30.25):
I thought,that's
interesting.But I thought,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (26:30.43-26:31.91):
surely it's still not
going to be propaganda.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (26:32.21-26:33.01):
Even now,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (26:33.11-26:35.13):
even after most of the public there
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (26:35.21-26:36.27):
has said we shouldn't
have shut down
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (26:36.27-26:37.07):
the plants,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (26:36.75-26:38.45):
even after Chancellor Merz has come
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (26:38.45-26:39.33):
out and said we shouldn't have done
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (26:39.33-26:40.47):
that.Even now,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (26:40.55-26:42.11):
the propaganda is so
strong.And I actually
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (26:42.11-26:43.35):
did a Substack
article on this where
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (26:43.35-26:46.33):
I looked at why is
Germany out in Europe?
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (26:46.33-26:49.45):
Germany is the most vehemently anti
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (26:49.45-26:50.87):
-nuclear.I've actually done,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (26:51.25-26:54.10):
I've actually...given
talks where I've
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (26:54.10-26:56.22):
been shouted at by
people in the audience,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (26:56.30-26:57.58):
and it's always been
a German person,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (26:57.88-26:58.92):
during the time it's happened,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (26:59.00-27:01.40):
one was asked to
leave because he was
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (27:01.40-27:04.24):
so angry that I was
talking about nuclear.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (27:05.38-27:08.84):
It's because they've
had so much propaganda
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (27:08.84-27:10.80):
for so long.And I
urge people to look
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (27:10.80-27:11.94):
this up.They have a book called Die
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (27:11.94-27:14.34):
Wolk.It's called The
Cloud.I read this
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (27:14.34-27:15.14):
book and it,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (27:15.22-27:17.34):
It's traumatizing.It's
about a little
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (27:17.34-27:19.30):
kid in a nuclear disaster,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (27:19.30-27:21.18):
but although it's a meltdown,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (27:21.18-27:23.36):
the effects are what
you would expect
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (27:23.36-27:25.24):
after an atomic bomb.And there's no
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (27:25.24-27:26.80):
difference in the
book.And this is a
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (27:26.80-27:27.92):
very famous book,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (27:27.92-27:29.70):
and it's taught in
German schools to
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (27:29.70-27:32.36):
this day.And I've
got German friends
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (27:32.36-27:33.16):
who said,yeah,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (27:32.76-27:34.44):
I grew up reading
that.I was terrified.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (27:34.44-27:37.45):
And that's propaganda.Fascinating
to
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (27:37.45-27:39.95):
think about the
conflation of nuclear
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (27:39.95-27:42.19):
energy and a nuclear bomb,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (27:42.19-27:45.03):
because obviously
Germany in the 70s
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (27:45.03-27:48.29):
and 80s had the most
forward anti-nuclear
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (27:48.29-27:52.93):
weapon or the
denuclearization of weapons
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (27:52.93-27:56.51):
and power.What about
how do you deal
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (27:56.51-28:01.01):
with realities like serious nuclear
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (28:01.01-28:02.77):
power plant problems?
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (28:02.79-28:05.71):
Chernobyl is obviously the most.you
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (28:05.71-28:08.59):
know,obvious one,but,you know,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (28:08.59-28:09.39):
and then more recently,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (28:09.35-28:11.71):
something like
Fukushima or earlier,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (28:11.71-28:13.61):
something like Three Mile Island in
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (28:13.61-28:15.33):
the United States does.I mean,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (28:15.33-28:18.51):
you're not saying
that nuclear energy
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (28:18.51-28:20.81):
has no risks,right?
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (28:20.81-28:23.04):
Or no dangers.It's
just that when you
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (28:23.04-28:25.64):
put these things
in various kinds of
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (28:25.64-28:27.68):
cost-benefit analyses
and compare them
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (28:27.68-28:30.90):
to things like coal
plants and oil and
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (28:30.90-28:33.16):
gas refining and things like that,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (28:33.16-28:37.92):
the mathematics of
costs and benefits
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (28:37.92-28:40.04):
change a bit.Also,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (28:40.04-28:43.44):
if people's primary
concern tends to
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (28:43.44-28:44.60):
be safety,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (28:44.60-28:47.00):
and actually there's
good data on this.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (28:47.10-28:49.16):
You can look up our
world in data or
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (28:49.16-28:50.26):
somewhere like that
that's done a good
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (28:50.26-28:52.04):
breakdown of the
numbers.It's one of
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (28:52.04-28:54.92):
the safest forms of
energy.It is right
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (28:54.92-28:57.56):
down there with solar and wind.Even
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (28:57.56-28:59.02):
hydropower has a
higher toll because
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (28:59.02-29:00.50):
of the Ban Kyo Dam disaster,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (29:00.50-29:02.20):
which killed over 100,000
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (29:02.20-29:03.42):
people.Their homes
completely washed
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (29:03.42-29:06.01):
away.Nuclear has
never done that.I'm
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (29:06.01-29:07.19):
not saying,oh,well,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (29:07.19-29:09.49):
that's good that only 2,000
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (29:09.49-29:10.77):
people died at
Chernobyl.It's not good
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (29:10.77-29:11.83):
when someone dies,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (29:11.83-29:15.83):
obviously.But you can't
consider something
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (29:15.83-29:17.83):
like electricity out of context.You
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (29:17.83-29:19.43):
have to look at the context.Coal is
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (29:19.43-29:21.75):
the absolute worst on every metric.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (29:21.75-29:22.63):
But you can't consider
something like
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (29:22.63-29:23.43):
electricity out of
context.Coal is the
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (29:22.63-29:23.91):
absolute feel like
that's quite well
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (29:23.91-29:26.19):
known by now.Nuclear
is one of the best.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (29:26.61-29:27.85):
With Chernobyl,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (29:27.85-29:30.69):
there's a really good
way to just explain
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (29:30.69-29:31.49):
Chernobyl,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (29:31.11-29:32.89):
which is we don't
build that reactor
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (29:32.89-29:34.99):
anymore,the RBMK reactor,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (29:34.99-29:38.27):
because the original
design had a risk
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (29:38.27-29:39.75):
that it could
explode.Modern reactors
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (29:39.75-29:42.95):
can't.They just
can't.The few that still
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (29:42.95-29:45.31):
exist in that part of the world,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (29:45.31-29:46.11):
in Russia,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (29:45.77-29:48.07):
they have upgraded
them so that they
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (29:48.07-29:49.69):
can't explode.We'll
never have another
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (29:49.69-29:51.17):
Chernobyl.might have a meltdown,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (29:51.17-29:52.31):
but we wouldn't have
anything of that
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (29:52.31-29:54.59):
scale.That was just
that reactor.There
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (29:54.59-29:57.41):
are much better designs
now.Even Fukushima,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (29:57.41-29:59.17):
they found in a
report afterwards that
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (29:59.33-30:01.61):
they could have
chosen a design that中文对照导读
这一段是核能争论的正面展开。Lights 说，自己发现相关组织的营销「有说服力但虚假」后离开了。她认为原本以资本主义和自由企业为基础的制度，可能被替换成更受管制、减少个人选择的权威体系；她举出不准坐飞机或开车等观点，认为这些限制会影响人们去医院和保持行动自由。她明确主张大规模扩张核能，认为其他可再生能源可以参与，但现在仍然需要核能。她把反核情绪部分归因于核能和核武器的混淆，也质疑 Sierra Club、Greenpeace 等环保组织的资金来源，尤其提到化石燃料相关产业的资助；这部分是访谈中的指控，音频没有现场给出完整文件。她还讨论核废料与煤炭污染的比较：核废料容易成为公众焦点，煤炭排放对大气的污染却常被忽略。她批评把「可再生」当作自动等于清洁和可靠，并以生物质为例。大众文化和德国影视、教材中的核灾难叙事，也被她视为长期强化反核印象的因素。
30:00-40:00
English ASR original
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (30:01.61-30:03.89):
would have actually
withstood a tsunami,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (30:03.89-30:05.57):
and they didn't.So
there were lessons
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (30:05.57-30:07.59):
learned there.But again,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (30:07.59-30:08.39):
ultimately,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (30:08.13-30:10.58):
no one died from
that meltdown.I mean,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (30:10.58-30:11.64):
it's terrible.I mean,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (30:11.64-30:14.20):
more people died
from the evacuation
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (30:14.20-30:16.90):
process than from radiation.Yeah,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (30:16.90-30:18.40):
they panicked and
got into accidents.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (30:18.48-30:19.98):
And I often say the fear of nuclear
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (30:19.98-30:21.78):
is actually worse
than nuclear itself.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (30:22.12-30:25.20):
And that's why we
need to make sensible
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (30:25.20-30:26.34):
decisions.And again,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (30:26.34-30:28.06):
another report found actually a lot
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (30:28.06-30:29.78):
of those people didn't
need to be evacuated,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (30:29.78-30:32.14):
but...the people
in charge panicked.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (30:32.14-30:32.94):
Again,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (30:32.42-30:35.38):
lessons to be learned
there.But essentially,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (30:35.38-30:37.36):
Japan learned that
lesson very quickly.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (30:37.36-30:39.20):
That's why I make that
kind of distinction.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (30:39.20-30:40.92):
Isn't it interesting
that the East hasn't
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (30:40.92-30:43.54):
had this pushback on
nuclear and moving
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (30:43.54-30:44.54):
away from it?
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (30:44.58-30:48.00):
They've always been
kind of guns blazing.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (30:48.00-30:50.82):
Japan did initially,
for the first time,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (30:50.82-30:54.08):
have them down.But
very soon after they
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (30:54.08-30:56.20):
realised electricity
became expensive,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (30:57.00-30:58.02):
they were building
renewables but it
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (30:58.02-30:58.84):
wasn't enough,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (30:58.84-31:00.20):
they didn't want to
go back to fossil
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (31:00.20-31:01.00):
fuels,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (31:01.44-31:02.84):
they started reopening
them and they're
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (31:02.84-31:04.76):
still in the process
of restarting reactors.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (31:05.16-31:07.10):
They didn't have
that.Without all the
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (31:07.10-31:08.72):
additional storytelling around it,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (31:08.72-31:10.88):
people make more
sensible decisions.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (31:11.36-31:13.16):
country has,you know,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (31:13.16-31:16.08):
the direct experience
with nuclear weapons,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (31:16.08-31:17.24):
it's Japan,right?
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (31:17.34-31:19.02):
So it's kind of
particularly remarkable
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (31:19.02-31:21.82):
that they are very forward in terms
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (31:21.82-31:25.22):
of nuclear energy.In the book,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (31:25.22-31:26.46):
you talk about,you know,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (31:26.46-31:27.26):
I mean,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (31:27.02-31:29.30):
part of this is you can see kind of
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (31:29.30-31:32.56):
nuclear energy as captive to Japan.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (31:33.03-31:36.03):
of historical
rivalries that go back
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (31:36.03-31:38.75):
hundreds of years.But in Europe,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (31:38.75-31:40.69):
for instance,you have Germany,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (31:40.69-31:43.11):
which basically got
rid of all of its
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (31:43.11-31:46.19):
nuclear energy and
put itself at risk
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (31:46.19-31:48.85):
not only to use
more polluting forms
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (31:48.85-31:49.65):
of energy,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (31:49.47-31:52.05):
but it becomes
something approaching a
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (31:52.05-31:55.53):
vassal state to Russia,
while France,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (31:55.53-31:57.75):
which is also kind I mean,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (31:57.75-32:00.09):
France has long been
the leading kind
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (32:00.09-32:01.83):
of developed nation
with nuclear power.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (32:01.93-32:03.57):
But explain,you know,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (32:03.57-32:07.75):
how do the different paths taken by
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (32:07.75-32:09.63):
countries like France
and Germany help
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (32:09.63-32:13.01):
show why nuclear
energy is really still
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (32:13.01-32:16.87):
underappreciated as
a source of clean
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (32:16.87-32:18.57):
and ongoing energy?
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (32:18.78-32:20.10):
So even in France,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (32:20.10-32:22.46):
I was there a few
years ago protesting
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (32:22.46-32:25.58):
the shutdown of
Fessenheim.They shut
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (32:25.58-32:27.76):
down a reactor.It was old,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (32:27.76-32:29.76):
but it wasn't past its expiry date.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (32:29.80-32:30.90):
It could have been
extended.They made
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (32:30.90-32:32.70):
the decision not to
extend it.And that
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (32:32.70-32:34.42):
was under Macron's
government.Even though
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (32:34.42-32:36.76):
he's always been very
pro-nuclear publicly,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (32:36.76-32:39.60):
there was so much
campaigning at that
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (32:39.60-32:42.56):
time.And it was
really...I actually,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (32:42.56-32:44.16):
even though Extinction
Rebellion was
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (32:44.16-32:44.96):
founded here,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (32:44.88-32:47.04):
I have never experienced that level
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (32:47.04-32:50.78):
of campaigning.It
was all in the news,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (32:50.78-32:53.22):
Greenpeace flying
drones into the site
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (32:53.22-32:54.34):
saying,look how unsafe it is,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (32:54.34-32:55.14):
we can fly a drone.I mean,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (32:55.10-32:56.16):
what is a drone going to do?
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (32:56.16-32:57.16):
It's not going to
do anything.People
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (32:57.16-32:59.30):
didn't know that.And
the press had a
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (32:59.30-33:02.61):
heyday.activists fly
drone into nuclear
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (33:02.61-33:05.13):
unsafe zone.And he
basically caved to
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (33:05.13-33:06.29):
those pressures.And
it was only later
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (33:06.29-33:07.99):
after the narrative started kind of
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (33:07.99-33:10.97):
shifting in favour that
he made an announcement,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (33:11.05-33:12.09):
we're going to build new reactors,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (33:12.09-33:12.89):
which is great,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (33:12.67-33:14.13):
and they are building
them.But there
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (33:14.13-33:16.37):
was a point where
even France lagged.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (33:16.41-33:18.15):
And so they went from
having 80%nuclear
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (33:18.15-33:20.87):
to down to 70%.So even there,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (33:20.87-33:23.15):
they could not withstand
it.The lobbying
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (33:23.15-33:26.81):
was so powerful.No one
does any diligence
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (33:26.81-33:28.27):
on this.No one goes
and looks at where
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (33:28.39-33:30.21):
is that money coming
from.I've inquired.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (33:30.21-33:31.95):
I've contacted some of these groups
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (33:31.95-33:33.47):
and they're not
transparent about their
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (33:33.47-33:35.43):
funding.Who is
funding them to lobby
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (33:35.43-33:37.31):
so heavily?
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (33:37.31-33:39.43):
Especially in Germany,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (33:40.21-33:42.21):
the coal industry benefited because
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (33:42.21-33:44.49):
they did this for
environmental reasons,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (33:44.49-33:45.89):
but then they had to
go back to burning
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (33:45.89-33:47.33):
coal because they
didn't have enough
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (33:47.33-33:52.09):
wind and solar on
the grid.And again,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (33:52.09-33:52.89):
in Germany,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (33:52.79-33:55.11):
the level of lobbying
and campaigning
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (33:55.11-33:59.01):
is just...I've never seen it in any
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (33:59.01-34:00.49):
other country,
France and Germany.Now,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (34:00.49-34:02.01):
France managed to
withstand it and kind
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (34:02.01-34:04.43):
of bounce back.Germany
has learned the
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (34:04.43-34:05.25):
lesson the hard way,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (34:05.25-34:08.53):
really expensive
electricity.Polls do
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (34:08.53-34:10.03):
show now that most
people kind of say
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (34:10.03-34:11.71):
you shouldn't have
shut them down.But
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (34:11.71-34:14.13):
it's interesting that
there was so much
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (34:14.13-34:16.79):
campaigning.I went there and gave a
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (34:16.79-34:18.75):
talk on the day that
the last reactor
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (34:18.75-34:21.26):
was shut down.There
was a huge green
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (34:21.26-34:23.08):
piece present opposite
the square and
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (34:23.08-34:24.74):
there was police separating us.They
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (34:24.74-34:26.70):
had this massive dinosaur which was
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (34:26.70-34:28.08):
representing nuclear and they had a
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (34:28.08-34:31.44):
guy with a sun for
a face stabbing the
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (34:31.44-34:34.52):
dinosaur representing
solar.I thought
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (34:34.52-34:35.36):
that was interesting because it was
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (34:35.36-34:37.30):
a really big installation
and I thought,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (34:37.30-34:39.10):
that's a lot of money
that's been spent
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (34:39.10-34:40.97):
on that.Where is that from?
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (34:41.35-34:43.31):
And it's also interesting to figure
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (34:43.31-34:46.31):
nuclear power as a dinosaur,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (34:46.31-34:47.11):
right?
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (34:46.77-34:49.09):
Since it was going
to replace fossil
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (34:49.09-34:49.89):
fuels,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (34:49.77-34:52.87):
which there's a big
or there was a big
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (34:52.87-34:56.31):
gas station chain in America called
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (34:56.31-34:57.11):
Sinclair,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (34:56.97-35:00.79):
whose mascot was a
big dinosaur.because
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (35:00.79-35:03.27):
that's where oil
and gas comes from.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (35:03.27-35:04.07):
I mean,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (35:03.43-35:05.01):
solar's not a new
technology either,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (35:05.33-35:06.53):
but it doesn't matter.You know,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (35:06.53-35:07.91):
again,it's feelings.It's what,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (35:07.91-35:08.71):
and lots of people,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (35:08.79-35:10.09):
tourists were coming
and having photos
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (35:10.09-35:12.77):
taken with this.Sure.And
reinforcing
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (35:12.77-35:13.77):
that idea to them,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (35:13.85-35:15.35):
this is a good
thing.All these people
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (35:15.35-35:17.53):
are partying.And yeah,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (35:17.53-35:18.47):
I just thought it was
really interesting
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (35:18.71-35:20.95):
because-I think
these are completely
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (35:20.95-35:21.97):
funded operations,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (35:22.17-35:23.41):
but no one goes and actually-And so
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (35:23.41-35:25.43):
it's funded by industry?
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (35:25.65-35:27.39):
Is it funded by rival governments?
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (35:27.63-35:28.43):
You know,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (35:27.95-35:30.55):
where are the Gulf
states in all this?
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (35:30.77-35:33.21):
They get grants and
they get donations
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (35:33.21-35:35.61):
from individuals.But
I'll tell you something,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (35:35.61-35:36.65):
in Extinction Rebellion,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (35:37.27-35:38.73):
I went to some of
their donor events
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (35:39.83-35:41.55):
They're private
events and only like
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (35:41.55-35:43.07):
the real top brass
in the organization
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (35:43.07-35:46.37):
were allowed to
go.Celebrities who don't
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (35:46.37-35:48.03):
want to go on record
as giving you money,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (35:48.03-35:50.19):
but will write you
a big check.We had
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (35:50.19-35:53.23):
major banks writing
us checks at some
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (35:53.23-35:56.39):
of these events.Why
would a major bank
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (35:56.39-35:57.79):
do that?
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (35:58.48-36:00.34):
Especially anonymous.Exactly.I
don't
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (36:00.34-36:04.72):
know.Who was the
biggest celebrity that
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (36:04.72-36:05.52):
you saw?
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (36:06.58-36:10.74):
Benedict Cumberbatch
was at our events.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (36:11.20-36:13.04):
Yeah.And he had some,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (36:13.04-36:14.56):
I remember he had
some selfies taken
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (36:14.56-36:16.22):
and he asked for
us not to post them
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (36:16.22-36:18.30):
online.And then people did.And then
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (36:18.30-36:19.70):
he was on the front
page the next day.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (36:19.96-36:22.89):
But isn't it interesting
that...It wasn't
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (36:22.89-36:25.99):
meant to be visible.There are a lot
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (36:25.99-36:26.79):
of people,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (36:26.67-36:29.19):
there are a lot of
A-listers at these
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (36:29.19-36:34.86):
events.Yeah,but banks,big CEOs,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (36:34.86-36:35.92):
people I'd never heard of,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (36:35.92-36:38.04):
people from
overseas.There's a lot of
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (36:38.04-36:40.04):
hype about this
group that we'd give
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (36:40.04-36:41.12):
some presentations,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (36:41.12-36:43.10):
we'd give out lots of champagne,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (36:43.10-36:45.48):
and then we'd sweet
talk people into
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (36:45.48-36:46.28):
writing us checks,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (36:46.24-36:48.84):
basically.And none
of that was anywhere
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (36:48.84-36:52.06):
in the press.No one
was checking.And
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (36:52.06-36:54.32):
I wondered,is this even allowed?
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (36:54.32-36:55.36):
I don't even know if it was,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (36:55.50-36:58.86):
actually.Your kind
of association with
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (36:58.86-37:00.08):
Extinction Rebellion,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (37:00.08-37:02.24):
which is famous for
doing kind of these
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (37:02.24-37:05.74):
mass stoppages in various places,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (37:05.74-37:08.12):
in subways and on
roadways and things
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (37:08.12-37:10.88):
like that.You write about it in the
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (37:10.88-37:13.56):
book where in 2019
you appeared on a
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (37:13.56-37:17.48):
show and you kind
of had to admit that
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (37:17.48-37:20.68):
there was not a good
argument that the
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (37:20.68-37:22.80):
group had against nuclear power.Can
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (37:22.80-37:24.20):
you talk a little bit about that?
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (37:24.26-37:25.36):
You had already become…
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (37:26.23-37:29.75):
kind of a believer
in nuclear energy
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (37:29.75-37:34.71):
as a way forward.But
the group is very
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (37:34.71-37:36.69):
much against that.So
can you set that
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (37:36.69-37:38.57):
scene a little bit
and walk us through
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (37:38.57-37:39.37):
what happened?
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (37:39.33-37:41.03):
Well,the interesting thing is,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (37:41.19-37:42.63):
I had already changed
my mind on nuclear
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (37:42.81-37:44.17):
and I had left a
lot of these groups
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (37:44.29-37:46.23):
that I'd been involved
with before very
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (37:46.23-37:49.95):
heavily.And so when they invited me
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (37:49.95-37:51.53):
to join,I wasn't a founding member,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (37:51.53-37:53.41):
they said,Zion,we love your work,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (37:53.41-37:54.51):
we know you've been in this space,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (37:54.57-37:55.79):
would you come and
be a spokesperson?
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (37:56.11-37:57.73):
All you have to do
is go on TV and talk
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (37:57.73-37:58.83):
about climate science.I was like,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (37:58.83-37:59.63):
yeah,okay,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (37:59.35-38:01.69):
I'll do that.I'd
rather I did that than
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (38:01.69-38:03.33):
you have someone
talking nonsense about
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (38:03.33-38:05.29):
it and setting the
whole thing back,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (38:05.29-38:06.09):
right?
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (38:06.05-38:07.99):
Although they did do that anyway,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (38:07.99-38:09.33):
but it was a different
spokesperson.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (38:10.23-38:12.05):
But I was invited
on the Andrew Neil
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (38:12.05-38:12.85):
show,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (38:12.45-38:16.26):
really big.TV program.He's
a very forensic
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (38:16.26-38:18.46):
interviewer.And before I went on,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (38:18.46-38:21.54):
they had Tony Blair
on.So it was a lot
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (38:21.54-38:23.48):
of people watched
it and it was live.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (38:23.48-38:26.76):
And the thing is I sat
there and I realized,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (38:26.94-38:27.90):
you know,I had been told,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (38:27.90-38:29.56):
so yeah,when I was invited,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (38:29.56-38:30.64):
I had said,well,you know,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (38:30.66-38:31.46):
you know,I'm pro-nuclear,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (38:31.42-38:32.22):
you know,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (38:31.62-38:33.06):
some other stuff.And
they were like,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (38:33.06-38:34.28):
we don't care about
that.All we care
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (38:34.28-38:35.76):
about is climate.Climate.That
was their
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (38:35.76-38:37.82):
branding.I thought,oh,okay,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (38:37.92-38:40.30):
okay.I can do this.So
I went on this
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (38:40.30-38:42.34):
show.It was not my first rodeo,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (38:42.34-38:45.53):
but I had my talking points.I think
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (38:45.53-38:47.67):
they'd researched
me really well.They
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (38:47.67-38:48.91):
knew I wasn't just going to say,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (38:49.33-38:50.13):
yeah,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (38:49.43-38:51.79):
just wind and solar will do it.They
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (38:51.79-38:53.37):
knew I wasn't going
to say people are
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (38:53.37-38:54.17):
bad,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (38:53.89-38:56.43):
we need to have less
people.He really grilled
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (38:56.43-38:58.21):
me specifically on those points.For
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (38:58.21-38:59.41):
example,he kept saying,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (38:59.41-39:01.01):
what are we going to do without gas
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (39:01.01-39:01.81):
then?
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (39:01.33-39:02.39):
What do you think
we should do without
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (39:02.45-39:03.25):
gas?
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (39:02.87-39:04.73):
I'm thinking of my
talking points that
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (39:04.73-39:06.07):
I've been given by
this organisation
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (39:07.14-39:09.14):
Just tell him we
need system change.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (39:09.14-39:11.20):
Just tell him we
need more democracy.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (39:11.92-39:13.76):
None of them matched up.And fine,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (39:13.76-39:14.92):
another spokesperson
might have done
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (39:14.92-39:17.28):
that.But I remember
just sitting there
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (39:17.28-39:18.90):
under this spotlight
and just thinking,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (39:19.36-39:21.32):
I can't do this anymore
because actually
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (39:21.32-39:22.80):
I think it's doing
more harm than good
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (39:22.80-39:24.78):
at this point.And I wish,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (39:24.78-39:25.58):
you know,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (39:25.30-39:26.56):
sometimes I think I
wish I should have,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (39:26.82-39:28.04):
I had just gone and said nuclear,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (39:28.20-39:30.44):
but as a representative
for the group,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (39:30.44-39:32.60):
I couldn't.But then when I left,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (39:32.60-39:33.86):
I came out and did it anyway,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (39:33.86-39:36.36):
so it's fine.But
he kept pressing on
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (39:36.36-39:38.86):
that point because he
knew that I couldn't
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (39:38.86-39:41.02):
say just wind and
solar.And actually
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (39:41.02-39:41.82):
what I said,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (39:41.68-39:43.70):
and this clip was put online and it
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (39:43.70-39:45.50):
was watched by over
2 million people.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (39:45.88-39:46.68):
I said,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (39:46.24-39:49.46):
I don't have any
answers for you.But
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (39:49.46-39:52.62):
it's true.It's true
because...none of
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (39:52.62-39:53.42):
that's in,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (39:53.22-39:56.04):
there's no energy policy in their,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (39:56.56-39:57.36):
in their,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (39:56.96-39:59.10):
within their policies
because they just
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (39:59.10-40:00.60):
believe that we
shouldn't be using it.中文对照导读
这一段集中讨论安全、法国与德国，以及 Lights 从反核转向支持核能的具体时刻。面对切尔诺贝利、福岛和三里岛，Lights 没有否认风险，而是要求把核能和煤、油、气、水电放进同一套成本收益比较。她认为切尔诺贝利与 RBMK 反应堆的设计有关，现代反应堆不会以同样方式爆炸；谈到福岛时，她强调疏散和恐慌也会产生伤亡，并认为有些人并不需要被疏散。她提到日本在核电减少后面对电价上涨、可再生能源不足和化石燃料选择，后来开始重启反应堆。法国部分围绕 Fessenheim 反应堆展开：她曾参加反对关闭的活动，认为机组虽然老但还可延寿，法国后来又宣布建设新反应堆。德国则被她描述为弃核后更多依赖煤炭、能源价格更高并暴露于外部能源依赖风险。她回忆自己作为 Extinction Rebellion 发言人参加 Andrew Neil 节目，被反复追问「没有天然气怎么办」，最后承认「我没有答案」。她说这段视频获得超过 200 万次观看，也促使她不再代表组织坚持原来的反核说法。
40:00-50:00
English ASR original
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (40:01.08-40:03.06):
Right.That's it.You should have one
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (40:03.06-40:04.82):
solar panel on your roof and that,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (40:04.94-40:06.38):
that's it.And then
when it runs out,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (40:06.44-40:07.92):
that's your fault.You
used too much.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (40:08.95-40:10.21):
That's it.Do you,I mean,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (40:10.21-40:13.27):
your general take is
that nuclear energy
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (40:13.65-40:16.77):
is the technology
we have now that can
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (40:16.77-40:18.61):
supply much of our needs,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (40:18.69-40:20.67):
and then we can add
on things like solar
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (40:20.67-40:21.47):
and wind,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (40:21.81-40:23.59):
and it's just that
they are not capable
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (40:23.87-40:25.77):
of supplying all the
needs of the grid,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (40:25.93-40:28.73):
Yeah.So they can't supply 24-7.They
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (40:28.73-40:30.13):
do require battery storage,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (40:30.13-40:32.51):
which no one ever
factors into the cost
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (40:32.51-40:33.89):
and the infrastructure.You're
building
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (40:33.89-40:34.69):
a new grid,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (40:34.51-40:36.27):
so you're building new
infrastructure.I'm
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (40:36.27-40:37.85):
not against that.I think it is good
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (40:37.85-40:39.53):
to have multiple
different clean energy
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (40:39.53-40:41.53):
sources.I think it's
a shame that the
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (40:41.53-40:44.17):
fight is always
renewables versus nuclear,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (40:44.17-40:44.97):
right?
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (40:44.47-40:45.99):
How clever is that,really,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (40:45.99-40:47.21):
if you're the fossil fuel industry?
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (40:47.72-40:49.04):
When it should be just clean,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (40:49.04-40:51.02):
let's just get rid
of what's not clean.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (40:51.02-40:51.86):
That's not even political,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (40:51.98-40:52.78):
it's not left or right,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (40:52.68-40:53.82):
it's damaging us,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (40:53.82-40:56.04):
it's damaging the planet.Let's move
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (40:56.04-40:59.88):
to more progressive sources.Nuclear
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (40:59.88-41:02.68):
is so powerful,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (41:02.68-41:04.84):
and obviously that's
been used against
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (41:04.84-41:07.32):
it in many ways
within the narrative.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (41:09.20-41:10.80):
You can power an
entire civilization
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (41:10.80-41:13.56):
with this without
damaging the world
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (41:13.56-41:15.02):
around you.That's the thing.Like,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (41:15.02-41:15.82):
yes,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (41:15.38-41:16.92):
it has an environmental
impact.I'm not
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (41:16.92-41:18.72):
denying that.But if you look at the
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (41:18.72-41:19.52):
mining costs,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (41:19.40-41:21.18):
there's data on this.It
has less because
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (41:21.18-41:23.22):
it produces so much
per kilowatt hour.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (41:23.62-41:26.34):
It has very little
impact.It takes up
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (41:26.34-41:28.25):
very little space.People
don't realize
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (41:28.25-41:30.17):
that often.It has a
really small land
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (41:30.17-41:32.71):
footprint compared
to wind and solar.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (41:32.83-41:33.89):
I'm not saying don't build them.I'm
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (41:33.89-41:35.35):
just saying actually
on every metric,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (41:35.35-41:36.37):
when I started looking at it,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (41:36.79-41:38.53):
I was thinking every
single thing I've
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (41:38.53-41:40.69):
been told about this
is a lie.And even
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (41:40.69-41:42.27):
the way it's so minimal,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (41:42.27-41:46.09):
so little of it,
so absurdly well managed,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (41:46.71-41:49.07):
while even waste
from other industries
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (41:49.07-41:51.17):
just isn't,which
should be managed well,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (41:51.17-41:54.54):
isn't.because nuclear
has had that history.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (41:54.54-41:55.38):
So it's almost been,you know,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (41:55.88-41:58.08):
the thing with
nuclear is we've been
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (41:58.08-41:59.72):
so obsessed with
trying to get to zero
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (41:59.72-42:02.08):
risk.Nothing is zero
risk.Nothing can
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (42:02.08-42:03.04):
be zero risk,right?
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (42:03.14-42:04.92):
Like even just me
sitting here is not
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (42:04.92-42:06.76):
zero risk.Walking around your house
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (42:06.76-42:08.14):
is not zero risk.A lot of accidents
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (42:08.14-42:09.74):
happen at home.Every
time you get in
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (42:09.74-42:10.54):
a car,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (42:10.08-42:11.58):
you're taking a big risk.Nothing is
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (42:11.58-42:12.38):
zero risk,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (42:12.16-42:14.30):
but because of all that pushback in
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (42:14.30-42:15.36):
this side of the world,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (42:15.94-42:18.94):
we have regulated it
and over-regulated
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (42:18.94-42:23.37):
it and made it more
expensive than it
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (42:23.37-42:25.03):
needs to be.I say
that because if you
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (42:25.03-42:29.93):
look at how much China or Japan has
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (42:29.93-42:30.73):
spent,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (42:30.23-42:31.65):
or South Korea is a
good example because
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (42:31.65-42:32.93):
they have such a good
reactor that they're
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (42:32.93-42:34.61):
exporting it around the world,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (42:34.61-42:37.33):
it's so cheap
compared to over here.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (42:38.13-42:39.97):
Because we take a
design and then it
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (42:39.97-42:41.47):
has to go through our environmental
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (42:41.47-42:43.31):
standards,which is ironic,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (42:43.31-42:44.11):
right?
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (42:43.65-42:45.23):
Because it's actually
slowing down the
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (42:45.23-42:48.59):
building of clean energy.Right.That
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (42:48.59-42:51.07):
will save the
environment.And once those
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (42:51.07-42:52.67):
things are in place,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (42:52.67-42:55.67):
it's very hard to
get rid of them.So
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (42:55.67-42:57.27):
even with people
that I know who are
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (42:57.27-42:58.07):
like,yeah,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (42:57.63-42:59.29):
we want nuclear.If you say you want
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (42:59.29-43:00.19):
to reduce regulation,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (43:00.19-43:02.05):
that scares them.But
I'm not talking
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (43:02.05-43:03.63):
about making it less
safe.I'm talking
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (43:03.63-43:06.29):
about...When we build the EPR,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (43:06.29-43:07.33):
so we don't have our own reactor,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (43:07.33-43:11.19):
we have the European
pressure reactor
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (43:11.19-43:12.31):
from France,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (43:12.31-43:14.15):
you're supposed to
just take that design
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (43:14.15-43:15.31):
and build it like a Lego set,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (43:15.31-43:17.31):
just keep repeating it.But we don't
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (43:17.31-43:20.19):
do that because we
have to make design
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (43:20.19-43:22.23):
changes to meet our
own standards.So
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (43:22.23-43:23.63):
the concrete's got
to be a bit thicker.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (43:23.79-43:25.85):
Yeah.can only use
these kinds of nails.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (43:26.33-43:27.61):
If there's a problem
with the supply
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (43:27.61-43:29.53):
chain,then there's a
delay.And actually,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (43:29.53-43:30.33):
you know,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (43:29.91-43:30.97):
our latest reactor that hasn't come
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (43:30.97-43:31.77):
online yet,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (43:31.99-43:32.95):
it's going to be amazing.It's going
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (43:32.95-43:35.09):
to power 6 million
homes.That's huge,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (43:35.09-43:36.05):
especially for the site,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (43:36.11-43:37.65):
which I've been to
see is so small for
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (43:37.65-43:38.53):
how much power,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (43:38.53-43:41.95):
it's crazy.But
it's...It's delayed by
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (43:41.95-43:43.13):
over a decade.I mean,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (43:43.13-43:44.59):
it's ridiculous.And he's looking at
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (43:44.59-43:46.53):
South Korea,making them in three,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (43:46.53-43:47.33):
four years,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (43:47.63-43:49.21):
and then going
abroad to the UAE and
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (43:49.21-43:50.01):
saying,"'Yeah,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (43:49.67-43:51.01):
we'll make them for
you."'Let's make
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (43:51.01-43:52.33):
some more in three or four years.'"
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (43:52.81-43:55.35):
That's really hard now
that that's embedded
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (43:55.35-43:58.49):
in our system.That's
really hard.You
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (43:58.49-43:59.29):
know,what role,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (43:59.35-44:00.91):
and this may be
more specific to the
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (44:00.91-44:01.71):
United States,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (44:01.71-44:04.31):
and I will confess
a total ignorance
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (44:04.31-44:05.59):
of,you know,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (44:05.65-44:07.71):
the local industries in other parts
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (44:07.71-44:08.51):
of the world,but,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (44:08.95-44:12.69):
The nuclear energy industry here is
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (44:12.69-44:13.49):
very,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (44:13.83-44:16.29):
it's a product of the
federal government.It's
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (44:16.29-44:17.39):
been regulated,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (44:17.39-44:19.61):
a government that
has done everything
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (44:19.61-44:21.33):
it can to lose the
trust and confidence
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (44:21.59-44:24.03):
of people across all sorts of areas
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (44:24.03-44:26.73):
of activity.The
industry itself often
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (44:26.73-44:27.57):
lies,you know,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (44:27.57-44:28.73):
the people involved in it,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (44:28.73-44:30.95):
and they get huge
subsidies and things
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (44:30.95-44:34.97):
like that.How much
of the problem of
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (44:34.97-44:37.71):
building out nuclear
do you think goes
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (44:37.71-44:39.63):
to the industry
itself or the people
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (44:39.63-44:40.43):
in the industry?
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (44:40.43-44:42.28):
Because they have...You know,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (44:42.28-44:43.08):
they're just,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (44:43.04-44:44.88):
they don't come across
as honest brokers.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (44:45.14-44:45.94):
You know,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (44:45.32-44:47.92):
it's funny.So I
wouldn't say that the
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (44:47.92-44:49.38):
people I've dealt with
here are dishonest,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (44:49.60-44:51.96):
but I would say that
there's no sense
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (44:51.96-44:55.42):
of urgency.And so,for example,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (44:55.42-44:57.36):
you know,when I started
out doing this,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (44:57.54-44:59.06):
one of the first
actions I did was I'm
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (44:59.06-45:00.22):
going to go down to
where they're building
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (45:00.22-45:01.52):
this.They're going
to build this new
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (45:01.52-45:03.30):
reactor in Suffolk.Actually,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (45:03.30-45:05.74):
they hadn't approved
it yet.It was kind
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (45:05.74-45:06.62):
of a subject for debate,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (45:06.62-45:08.78):
but they approved
it afterwards.Okay.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (45:08.98-45:10.42):
that there's a celebrity going down
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (45:10.42-45:11.66):
there holding all
these rallies against
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (45:11.66-45:13.24):
it.And that celebrity
lives in London
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (45:13.24-45:15.12):
and has a second home
there.And he said
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (45:15.12-45:17.00):
he doesn't want the noise
from the construction.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (45:17.14-45:18.18):
So that was his main.Yeah,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (45:18.18-45:20.70):
he said that like to a newspaper.So
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (45:20.70-45:21.50):
I was like,no,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (45:21.28-45:22.58):
not having that.Got on a train,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (45:22.58-45:24.82):
five hour journey.And I got a group
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (45:24.82-45:25.62):
of people together,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (45:25.48-45:26.50):
environmentalists actually,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (45:26.50-45:28.84):
who were kind of
bit fed up with the
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (45:28.84-45:31.20):
traditional movement.We
all had a swim
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (45:31.20-45:32.66):
on the beach.The main reason we did
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (45:32.66-45:34.00):
that was because the opposing group
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (45:34.00-45:37.32):
was saying that the
water was radioactive
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (45:37.82-45:38.90):
from the power plant,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (45:38.90-45:41.90):
which of course is
ridiculous.That's
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (45:41.90-45:43.12):
why,for good optics,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (45:43.12-45:43.96):
and we did get in the news,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (45:43.96-45:46.40):
we were swimming on
the beach and stuff.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (45:46.40-45:49.17):
I had an email.couple
of days before
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (45:49.17-45:49.97):
this event,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (45:49.71-45:51.59):
which I advertise
on all my channels,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (45:51.59-45:53.67):
from the industry.This
was the first
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (45:53.67-45:55.09):
time I ever had any
interaction with
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (45:55.09-45:56.87):
the industry after
years of thinking
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (45:56.95-45:58.91):
they're the bad guys,
reassessing it,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (45:58.91-46:00.27):
but then not really
having any opinion
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (46:00.27-46:02.89):
of them.Except,you know,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (46:02.89-46:03.69):
thinking,well,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (46:03.49-46:05.45):
they've been demonized
for a long time,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (46:05.45-46:09.07):
that's not fair.The
email from their
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (46:09.07-46:09.97):
comms team said,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (46:09.97-46:11.93):
we would like you not
to do this event.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (46:13.39-46:15.01):
because people will
protest it and you'll
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (46:15.01-46:16.63):
get bad press.And I
was actually really
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (46:16.63-46:18.09):
angry and I replied saying,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (46:18.43-46:20.21):
how could you possibly have a worse
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (46:20.21-46:21.23):
image than you already have?
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (46:22.07-46:23.81):
If this is what you're doing,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (46:24.01-46:25.25):
discouraging people
who are trying to
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (46:25.25-46:26.05):
support you,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (46:25.73-46:28.19):
like no wonder.And I
think that's actually
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (46:28.19-46:29.65):
a big part of the
problem.They never
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (46:29.65-46:32.75):
fought back.They never owned things
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (46:32.75-46:34.01):
when they've gone
wrong and just being
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (46:34.01-46:36.13):
transparent and honest about it and
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (46:36.13-46:37.65):
calm people down.It can be done.And
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (46:37.65-46:39.13):
I always give this
example and I give
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (46:39.13-46:41.05):
it in the book of
Challenger.Because
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (46:41.05-46:42.57):
if you look at what
happened with Challenger,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (46:42.57-46:44.05):
that's horrific,right?
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (46:44.59-46:45.97):
There's school teachers
up there.There's
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (46:45.97-46:47.69):
kids watching on live television.It
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (46:47.69-46:50.59):
was one of the most
viewed live broadcasts
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (46:50.59-46:53.03):
at the time.And it
explodes.And they
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (46:53.03-46:55.49):
shut it off and then
the teachers have
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (46:55.49-46:56.93):
to explain to the
kids what they have
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (46:56.93-46:59.49):
just seen.And the
debris you're seeing
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (46:59.49-47:00.95):
is people who have been...I mean,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (47:00.95-47:02.07):
come on,this is horrific,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (47:02.07-47:02.87):
right?
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (47:02.33-47:04.01):
Look,I didn't see it growing up,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (47:04.01-47:05.17):
but I remember learning
about it because
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (47:05.17-47:06.65):
I'm really into
astronomy and stuff.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (47:07.20-47:08.00):
and thinking,well,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (47:07.84-47:09.28):
that's really
horrific.Isn't that funny
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (47:09.28-47:10.40):
that people didn't turn against the
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (47:10.48-47:11.28):
space industry?
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (47:11.26-47:12.06):
I mean,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (47:11.36-47:13.18):
it's far more dangerous
when you think
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (47:13.18-47:16.12):
about it.It is.Why
hasn't there been
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (47:16.12-47:17.36):
this big narrative?
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (47:17.36-47:19.00):
If you talk about space,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (47:19.00-47:22.02):
you only hear positive,
incredible stories,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (47:22.18-47:22.98):
right?
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (47:22.34-47:23.20):
Project Hail Mary,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (47:23.20-47:25.26):
that just came
out.Absolutely incredible,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (47:25.26-47:26.78):
positive story.All
the books that I've
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (47:26.78-47:27.92):
ever read about space stuff,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (47:27.92-47:30.25):
from Star Trek to And I ask though,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (47:30.25-47:32.63):
then this kind of
follows through because
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (47:32.63-47:35.57):
in the US they did
stop manned programs
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (47:35.57-47:38.23):
for a while or scaled
it back.But the
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (47:38.23-47:39.03):
other,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (47:38.53-47:40.97):
the big difference
is that the space
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (47:40.97-47:43.81):
industry now is a
very much of a mix
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (47:43.93-47:46.61):
of private enterprise
and state enterprise.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (47:46.69-47:48.97):
And in the United States,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (47:48.97-47:49.77):
NASA,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (47:49.61-47:52.97):
our space agency
really only got back
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (47:52.97-47:54.15):
on track when it was like,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (47:54.27-47:55.07):
okay,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (47:54.31-47:56.01):
we're gonna contract
out to a lot of
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (47:56.01-47:57.65):
people.And it includes Elon Musk,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (47:57.65-47:59.66):
it includes Jeff
Bezos.It includes various
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (47:59.66-48:01.86):
things.And is there an analog there
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (48:01.86-48:05.10):
for the for the nuclear industry,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (48:05.10-48:07.70):
either globally or in
specific in particular
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (48:07.70-48:10.20):
places because they
have the urgency?
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (48:10.34-48:11.90):
You know,it is Elon Musk,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (48:11.90-48:16.06):
who is a vexing
figure.He does you know,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (48:16.06-48:18.00):
he wants to die on Mars,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (48:18.00-48:19.28):
preferably not on,you know,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (48:19.28-48:20.90):
not on impact and
all of that kind of
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (48:20.90-48:23.04):
stuff.But like he's
got a sense of urgency
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (48:23.04-48:26.10):
that no government
anywhere ever sees.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (48:26.31-48:28.47):
But I think the difference with the
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (48:28.47-48:29.57):
Challenger thing was,I think,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (48:29.57-48:31.31):
that Reagan came out
with that incredible
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (48:31.31-48:32.11):
speech.I mean,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (48:32.03-48:33.47):
that speech has gone
down in history.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (48:33.47-48:34.89):
And when you read that,you think,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (48:34.89-48:36.91):
I've never heard anything like that
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (48:36.91-48:38.95):
about nuclear.No one
has ever come out
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (48:38.95-48:39.77):
and owned it.And again,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (48:39.77-48:41.29):
that report on Fukushima said,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (48:41.29-48:43.39):
if they had just
come out and calmed
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (48:43.39-48:44.19):
people,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (48:43.77-48:45.77):
it would have saved
those panicked deaths.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (48:45.77-48:48.37):
But they didn't.And
that is an industry
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (48:48.37-48:50.35):
problem,lack of sense of urgency,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (48:50.35-48:53.07):
terrible communication.And
often because
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (48:53.07-48:55.17):
a lot of them are
engineers and science
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (48:55.17-48:55.97):
-y types,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (48:55.75-48:57.71):
they just don't even
necessarily understand
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (48:57.71-48:59.15):
the need for that communication,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (48:59.15-49:00.97):
whereas actually that's where we're
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (49:00.97-49:03.23):
at with that.And I think,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (49:03.23-49:04.03):
again,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (49:03.51-49:05.47):
but it shows the
difference between when
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (49:05.47-49:06.67):
you do it and when
you don't do it and
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (49:06.67-49:08.63):
what happens to that
industry.And then
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (49:08.63-49:09.95):
it becomes kind of self-fulfilling,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (49:09.95-49:10.75):
I think,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (49:10.23-49:11.51):
because a lot of people I spoke to,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (49:11.61-49:13.03):
for example,at Hinkley Point C,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (49:13.03-49:15.23):
which is the one
that's...delayed and
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (49:15.23-49:16.39):
hopefully going to
come on in the next
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (49:16.39-49:17.63):
few years,but it's really,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (49:17.63-49:19.45):
really massively delayed.The people
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (49:19.45-49:21.03):
who started out working there,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (49:21.03-49:22.61):
fresh graduate engineers,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (49:22.61-49:25.05):
so excited.I went at
the beginning when
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (49:25.05-49:26.71):
they were literally
clearing the land,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (49:26.71-49:27.97):
I was invited to
go and have a look.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (49:27.97-49:29.13):
And then I went
again when they were
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (49:29.13-49:31.17):
putting the dome on
and they just felt
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (49:31.17-49:32.73):
like they'd just given up.They just
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (49:32.73-49:33.53):
said,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (49:32.89-49:34.05):
I just want to see
this project through
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (49:34.05-49:35.19):
now.I kind of want
to go do something
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (49:35.19-49:38.07):
else.And you're losing that because
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (49:38.07-49:39.85):
of those delays.And
I actually think
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (49:39.85-49:41.41):
it would be very
difficult to reform
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (49:41.41-49:43.71):
that.And you almost
do need it to go
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (49:43.71-49:45.11):
to a new model.We're
not seeing that
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (49:45.11-49:45.91):
discussion here,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (49:45.73-49:46.97):
though.I know you're
getting it with
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (49:46.97-49:48.63):
SpaceX and stuff
over there.What we're
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (49:48.63-49:50.69):
seeing here is more
of a move to small
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (49:50.69-49:53.21):
modular reactors.So there
are huge commitments
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (49:53.21-49:55.25):
to that.People quite like them,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (49:55.25-49:56.93):
although people here are fairly pre
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (49:56.93-50:00.19):
-nuclear anyway.They're
very well marketed.中文对照导读
这一段把焦点转到核工业本身。Lights 认为核能可以稳定供电，风电和太阳能要成为主力则需要储能、备用电力和更多基础设施，不能只比较电站的名义成本。她说核能单位发电量高、占地小，自己后来发现过去听到的很多反核说法具有误导性。她认为西方核电项目越来越慢、越来越贵，与长期恐惧、反对和监管要求有关。她用英国 EPR 举例：如果同一设计能够重复建造，工程会像套件一样学习和复制；现实中设计不断修改，混凝土更厚、材料和紧固件更特殊，供应链就容易延误。她提到一个据节目说法可为 600 万户家庭供电、却已延误十多年的英国项目，并把英国与中国、日本、韩国的建设速度比较。她也批评核工业缺乏紧迫感和公众沟通能力。她组织在电站附近海滩游泳，回应「海水有放射性」的说法，却收到公关团队要求取消活动的邮件，这让她认为产业正在劝退潜在支持者。她还比较核工业与 Challenger、SpaceX 和 NASA 的公共叙事，认为核工业缺少公开承担责任和重建信任的能力。
50:00-60:00
English ASR original
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (50:00.69-50:01.49):
I mean,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (50:00.87-50:02.53):
the marketing is
brilliant.Some of the
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (50:02.53-50:04.61):
adverts and stuff
are fantastic.People
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (50:04.61-50:06.43):
like Rolls-Royce.That's the company
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (50:06.43-50:09.71):
here that's building
them.But what I
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (50:09.71-50:11.37):
would say is you could have them as
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (50:11.37-50:12.69):
an addition the same
way you have wind
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (50:12.69-50:15.20):
and solar.Yeah.you're talking about
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (50:15.20-50:16.42):
powering a civilization,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (50:16.42-50:17.66):
if you're talking
about lifting people
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (50:17.66-50:19.56):
out of poverty,meeting our needs,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (50:19.56-50:20.72):
and not just meeting our needs,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (50:20.72-50:22.26):
but thinking a little
bit ahead to what's
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (50:22.26-50:23.06):
coming next,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (50:22.90-50:24.98):
it could be data
centers.It could be
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (50:24.98-50:27.72):
the next revolutionary
technology in
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (50:27.72-50:28.72):
healthcare.We don't know,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (50:28.72-50:29.52):
right?
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (50:28.96-50:30.72):
But there's always
new stuff.We're very
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (50:30.72-50:33.36):
energy-dependent,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (50:33.36-50:36.51):
rich people.Yeah.it's
not going to be
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (50:36.51-50:37.75):
enough for that.Like you can have,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (50:37.75-50:38.55):
sure,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (50:38.19-50:39.37):
you can power a data center with an
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (50:39.37-50:43.83):
SMR,but can you power
an entire country?
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (50:44.03-50:47.69):
I think still the
safest bet is to build
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (50:47.69-50:48.57):
good old,big,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (50:48.57-50:50.49):
big old fashioned
nuclear.Do you worry
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (50:50.49-50:52.31):
though at all that like places like
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (50:52.31-50:53.41):
China,you know,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (50:53.41-50:55.77):
is one model of a
country that is going
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (50:55.77-50:57.09):
gangbusters on this stuff,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (50:57.13-50:59.85):
but is deeply
authoritarian and they
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (50:59.85-51:02.41):
kind of probably
don't care if a lot
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (51:02.41-51:05.20):
of people get lost while working or
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (51:05.20-51:08.44):
UAE is another model of
a kind of authoritarian
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (51:08.44-51:11.02):
country where,you know,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (51:11.08-51:13.56):
the little people don't matter.Does
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (51:13.56-51:15.04):
that worry you at all?
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (51:15.26-51:16.18):
It does,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (51:16.18-51:18.64):
and I think that's a problem of our
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (51:18.64-51:20.02):
own making.That could have been us.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (51:20.02-51:22.00):
We were pioneers of this technology
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (51:22.00-51:22.94):
in the early days,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (51:22.94-51:24.66):
and we've completely
given that away.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (51:25.04-51:25.84):
I mean,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (51:25.50-51:27.26):
I'm hopeful when I
look at things like,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (51:27.26-51:28.50):
you know,the South Korean model,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (51:28.50-51:30.96):
this is not an
authoritarian country.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (51:31.10-51:32.60):
They live under
the...under the shadow
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (51:32.60-51:34.62):
of one.They haven't
invested in weapons.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (51:34.76-51:35.56):
The other half has,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (51:35.48-51:36.66):
but they actually
get quite a lot of
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (51:36.66-51:38.44):
prosperity from going
for civil nuclear.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (51:38.74-51:40.32):
They've built a
brilliant design.They're
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (51:40.32-51:42.62):
exporting that design
to lots of other
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (51:42.62-51:44.52):
countries.I think
they just run a new
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (51:44.52-51:46.22):
tender somewhere,
an African country,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (51:46.22-51:47.36):
can't remember where.But,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (51:47.36-51:48.16):
you know,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (51:47.56-51:50.38):
that makes me a bit
more hopeful.But
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (51:50.38-51:51.84):
ultimately,you know,we've,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (51:51.84-51:52.70):
yeah,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (51:52.86-51:55.46):
we've created a
problem.And we're going
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (51:55.46-51:56.26):
to have to,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (51:55.82-51:56.62):
I think we're going to have to deal
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (51:56.52-51:58.02):
with that problem at
some point because...
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (51:59.59-52:01.69):
And energy is what
supports a civilization.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (52:02.27-52:04.11):
Energy is what brings prosperity.We
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (52:04.11-52:05.85):
know that.We're watching it happen.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (52:06.07-52:08.45):
And then I'm sitting here
watching manufacturing
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (52:08.45-52:11.77):
shut down in Germany
because their electricity
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (52:11.77-52:14.33):
is so expensive.And
we've shot ourselves
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (52:14.33-52:17.32):
in the foot.And I
don't know how long
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (52:17.32-52:18.76):
it will be before
we will say that's
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (52:18.76-52:21.50):
the superpower and
we are poor.We are
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (52:21.50-52:23.70):
comparatively poor.And
we have the same
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (52:23.70-52:25.28):
problem in Britain.Our
electricity is
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (52:25.28-52:29.36):
very expensive.And
it will change once
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (52:29.36-52:30.42):
we have more nuclear on the grid,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (52:30.42-52:32.16):
but it's slow.So
we just come around
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (52:32.16-52:33.24):
in constant circles,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (52:33.24-52:34.64):
no matter who I talk to.I mean,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (52:34.64-52:36.58):
I literally just gave
evidence in Parliament
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (52:36.58-52:41.12):
on a net zero clean
energy panel yesterday.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (52:41.62-52:43.56):
expert witness and I said the whole
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (52:43.56-52:45.04):
thing needs reform.No one wanted to
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (52:45.04-52:47.16):
hear it.They wanted
to hear little nice
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (52:47.16-52:47.96):
things,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (52:47.76-52:50.86):
little changes.That's
not going to do
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (52:50.86-52:53.84):
it.You almost have
to do an Elon Musk.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (52:53.84-52:56.30):
Scrap that and start
again.How do we
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (52:56.30-52:57.22):
make it efficient?
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (52:57.48-52:59.00):
How do we punch well
above our weight?
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (52:59.00-53:00.04):
Because we're actually
really good at
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (53:00.04-53:01.74):
doing that.We have the expertise to
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (53:01.74-53:04.36):
do it.We have the
foundation to do it.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (53:04.36-53:06.43):
We have the scientific but we don't
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (53:06.43-53:08.81):
have the ambition
that I'm seeing where
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (53:08.81-53:09.61):
China is saying,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (53:09.47-53:11.51):
we're going to build
100 reactors.We're
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (53:11.51-53:13.21):
going to build 100
reactors this decade.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (53:13.27-53:14.81):
I mean,if I said that here,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (53:14.81-53:17.49):
people would laugh at me.You remain
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (53:17.49-53:21.17):
a conservationist and
an environmentalist.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (53:21.55-53:24.05):
Beyond the transition to nuclear,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (53:24.25-53:26.69):
what are the other
policies that you
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (53:26.69-53:29.59):
think are really important that are
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (53:29.59-53:31.93):
either not being
discussed or are going
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (53:31.93-53:32.73):
well?
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (53:32.49-53:33.29):
I mean,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (53:32.61-53:35.10):
things like carbon
taxes or...regulation
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (53:35.10-53:37.40):
of pollution.Has there
been good progress
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (53:37.40-53:38.46):
in those either,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (53:39.92-53:41.94):
in the way that we think about that
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (53:42.16-53:44.44):
so that we are not
necessarily destroying
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (53:44.44-53:45.74):
technological innovation,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (53:45.92-53:48.46):
but are getting a
cleaner atmosphere?
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (53:48.60-53:50.66):
I think actually
that's something that's
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (53:50.66-53:52.20):
under discussed and
people don't realize
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (53:52.20-53:53.68):
often when once you,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (53:54.21-53:56.57):
get to a stage where
you have a cleaner
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (53:56.57-53:58.17):
grid and enough money.Actually,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (53:58.17-53:59.73):
we do put in
environmental standards.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (53:59.91-54:01.29):
The US has done
that.The UK has done
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (54:01.29-54:02.71):
that.There's a list of 10 countries
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (54:02.71-54:03.55):
that have done it the best,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (54:03.61-54:05.23):
and we're in
there.France is in there.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (54:05.83-54:07.97):
Actually,that's a
really positive thing,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (54:08.13-54:09.47):
and we have brought down emissions.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (54:10.03-54:11.82):
I think people don't...People don't
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (54:11.82-54:13.16):
realize that because
when they're given
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (54:13.16-54:15.16):
the figures by the media
or environmentalists,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (54:15.16-54:16.02):
it's always,oh,look,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (54:16.02-54:17.20):
we're using more.But actually,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (54:17.20-54:18.70):
if you look at our emissions,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (54:18.70-54:20.58):
no,we're using more,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (54:20.58-54:22.42):
but we're still
conserving more too.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (54:22.48-54:24.30):
We're doing better.Our
air is cleaner
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (54:24.30-54:27.26):
than ever before.Beyond
the occasional
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (54:27.26-54:29.70):
wildfire or whatever
they have in Canada
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (54:29.70-54:31.40):
right now.The rest of the time,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (54:31.40-54:33.12):
it's exceptionally good.It's better
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (54:33.12-54:35.86):
than ever before in
history.Right.even
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (54:35.86-54:37.34):
seeing developing nations trying to
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (54:37.34-54:39.22):
do that.Difficult for
them because they're
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (54:39.22-54:40.02):
still burning coal,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (54:39.98-54:42.10):
but realising that that actually is
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (54:42.16-54:43.42):
important for human
health.If they want
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (54:43.42-54:44.22):
healthy workers,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (54:44.00-54:46.06):
they need to
prioritise that.Even in
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (54:46.06-54:46.86):
China,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (54:46.46-54:47.88):
they're looking at
how to improve that.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (54:48.08-54:49.88):
I think there's a lot of good stuff
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (54:49.88-54:52.44):
that's happened that
we don't hear about.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (54:52.62-54:54.18):
In terms of environmentalism,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (54:54.18-54:58.10):
some things I changed
my mind on.something
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (54:58.10-55:01.20):
that's not talked about a lot,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (55:01.20-55:04.34):
gene editing
technology.That's another
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (55:04.34-55:09.56):
life-changing technology
that's so demonized.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (55:09.56-55:13.40):
Frankified food,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (55:13.40-55:14.44):
all of that stuff.I
grew up with all
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (55:14.44-55:16.42):
of that.imaging my
head.I completely
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (55:16.42-55:18.00):
changed my mind on
it.I saw the studies.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (55:18.00-55:18.82):
Golden rice,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (55:19.00-55:20.10):
brilliant.We should
have that.That's
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (55:20.10-55:21.96):
where progress is
stored because the
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (55:21.96-55:24.72):
environmentalists
have directly lobbied.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (55:24.72-55:26.28):
As well as shifting the narrative,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (55:26.28-55:27.94):
they have directly
lobbied countries,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (55:27.98-55:30.02):
including poorer
countries.If you look
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (55:30.02-55:30.90):
at what happened in Sri Lanka,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (55:30.90-55:31.90):
where They said,fine,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (55:31.90-55:33.20):
we're going to get rid
of all the fertilizers.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (55:33.34-55:34.80):
It's killing our people.Overnight,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (55:34.80-55:35.84):
we're going to go to organic.Well,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (55:35.84-55:37.24):
look at this economy now.They're in
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (55:37.24-55:39.62):
intense poverty and
they have not recovered.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (55:39.96-55:41.20):
And the guy who brought that policy
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (55:41.20-55:42.04):
in,I can't remember his name,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (55:42.08-55:43.22):
he got hounded out of office.He had
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (55:43.22-55:45.88):
to leave the country.And
all those farmers
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (55:45.88-55:49.63):
are suffering.Every
time we fight against
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (55:49.63-55:52.35):
a new technological,you know,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (55:52.35-55:54.45):
technological,inventional progress,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (55:54.45-55:57.45):
we not only hold ourselves back,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (55:57.45-56:00.95):
but we harm the planet
and the wildlife
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (56:00.95-56:03.25):
around us.It's not
a conservationist
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (56:03.25-56:05.21):
thing to hold back on those things.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (56:05.63-56:06.43):
Every time,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (56:06.35-56:07.83):
once people prosper and do better,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (56:07.83-56:08.63):
I mean,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (56:07.99-56:09.95):
we know this from studies that show
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (56:09.95-56:12.09):
if people are healthier and they're
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (56:12.09-56:13.03):
getting enough food,well,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (56:13.13-56:14.17):
then you're going
to have fewer deaths
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (56:14.17-56:15.27):
and you're going to have,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (56:15.39-56:16.19):
they're going to
have less children.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (56:16.19-56:18.28):
So if that's your
concern...That should
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (56:18.28-56:19.76):
be the remedy,right?
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (56:19.82-56:20.80):
I'm not saying that's
the only reason
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (56:20.80-56:21.60):
we should help people,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (56:21.60-56:24.28):
but there's a big
cognitive dissonance
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (56:24.28-56:26.40):
there between what
actually helps people
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (56:26.60-56:28.52):
and helps the causes you care about
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (56:28.74-56:30.58):
and then the things
that you support,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (56:30.70-56:32.94):
which are indirect
oppositions.A classic
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (56:32.94-56:34.10):
example is,of course,nuclear,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (56:34.26-56:36.62):
because every country
that has phased
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (56:36.62-56:38.44):
out nuclear has ended up increasing
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (56:38.44-56:42.21):
its emissions.So...there
is a lot of
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (56:42.21-56:43.55):
progress.If you're
against emissions,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (56:43.55-56:45.21):
you need to be
pro-nuclear.You know,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (56:45.21-56:47.47):
we started out talking
about the saucepan,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (56:47.57-56:49.41):
which opens your
book.And then at the
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (56:49.41-56:50.21):
end of the book,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (56:50.19-56:52.77):
you go back to the village as well,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (56:52.77-56:54.89):
or you discuss.But
in the book and in
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (56:54.89-56:57.57):
your worldview,energy is,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (56:57.57-56:58.39):
you know,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (56:58.43-57:00.29):
is really kind of
liberation for all
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (57:00.29-57:01.09):
of us,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (57:00.79-57:02.87):
but especially in a
current context for
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (57:02.87-57:07.95):
women and poor
people.What do you think
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (57:07.95-57:10.65):
is the most important you know,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (57:10.65-57:12.57):
the kind of most
important comforter
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (57:12.57-57:14.47):
technology that those of us,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (57:14.61-57:15.41):
and again,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (57:14.91-57:17.67):
I use the word or the
term West in quotation
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (57:17.67-57:19.41):
marks because it varies,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (57:19.41-57:20.21):
you know,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (57:19.97-57:22.13):
minute by minute.But
in the developed
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (57:22.13-57:22.93):
world,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (57:22.83-57:25.57):
what is a what's a
technology or a comfort
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (57:25.57-57:28.99):
that we just take for
granted that gets
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (57:28.99-57:30.87):
lost when we,you know,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (57:30.87-57:32.29):
when we start talking about,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (57:32.29-57:33.51):
you know,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (57:33.51-57:35.61):
environmentalism from from an older
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (57:35.61-57:36.41):
model?
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (57:36.60-57:37.98):
You mean besides nuclear?
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (57:38.40-57:39.96):
Yeah.I mean,I guess,well,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (57:39.96-57:45.04):
what's a comfort or technology that
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (57:45.04-57:47.16):
those of us in wealthy
countries take
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (57:47.16-57:49.66):
for granted that
would go away if we
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (57:49.66-57:50.66):
actually follow a kind
of environmentalist?
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (57:50.66-57:51.46):
Oh,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (57:50.66-57:52.14):
there's just so many
things out there.I
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (57:52.14-57:53.68):
mean,what about your phone?
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (57:54.66-57:57.90):
Do you know how much
product goes into
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (57:57.90-57:58.70):
that phone,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (57:58.36-58:00.14):
how much mining and
then construction
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (58:00.14-58:01.52):
and the factories?
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (58:01.80-58:03.32):
And they're quite
polluting factories
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (58:03.32-58:04.94):
because they're not
here where we have
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (58:04.94-58:06.40):
high environmental
standards.They all
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (58:06.40-58:08.38):
moved abroad to
countries where they
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (58:08.38-58:09.74):
have less strict
environmental standards
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (58:09.74-58:13.89):
and less pollution.less respect for
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (58:13.89-58:15.19):
the workers as well,actually,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (58:15.19-58:17.53):
I should add.We
didn't want it here,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (58:17.53-58:18.39):
it's polluting,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (58:18.39-58:20.35):
we'll stop doing it
while someone else
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (58:20.35-58:22.49):
is doing it.It's just not as good,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (58:22.49-58:23.91):
it was better when
we were doing it.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (58:23.91-58:25.81):
But we saw something
that was polluting
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (58:25.81-58:28.05):
and decided we shouldn't.Phones are
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (58:28.05-58:29.35):
actually a revolutionary technology
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (58:29.35-58:31.35):
that we completely forget how,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (58:31.47-58:32.63):
and I know that's because we think,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (58:32.63-58:33.43):
oh,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (58:32.87-58:34.63):
we're screen addicted
and it's stressful.And
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (58:34.63-58:36.33):
I get that,I'm one of those people,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (58:36.33-58:37.69):
I'm always getting
pinged on my phone.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (58:37.69-58:41.34):
But it's If you give
someone in a developing
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (58:41.34-58:43.88):
country access to a
phone and there's
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (58:43.88-58:44.68):
studies on this,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (58:45.40-58:47.60):
they have access to
banking.That's life
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (58:47.60-58:49.68):
-changing for them.Now
I can get a job.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (58:49.68-58:51.26):
Now I can get a
credit score.Now I can
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (58:51.26-58:55.18):
get access to moving
money around.It's
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (58:55.18-58:56.78):
everything.And if you give them,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (58:57.16-58:58.98):
if they have enough education,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (58:58.98-59:00.60):
because obviously not
all of these areas
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (59:00.60-59:01.40):
are literate,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (59:01.37-59:03.07):
that they can access
the internet.Now
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (59:03.07-59:04.81):
they have education.Now they have a
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (59:04.81-59:06.63):
form of healthcare.It
might not be perfect.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (59:06.95-59:08.11):
It might not be the
same as going to
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (59:08.11-59:09.17):
a doctor.But let me tell you,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (59:09.21-59:10.53):
if you don't have
access to a doctor,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (59:10.95-59:12.93):
it is life-saving.It
is life-saving.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (59:13.11-59:16.36):
You can look up.anything
on there.And
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (59:16.36-59:18.26):
I think we forget this,right?
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (59:18.26-59:20.80):
We completely forget that if you or
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (59:20.80-59:21.64):
I are in trouble,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (59:21.64-59:23.36):
aside from the systems
that will help
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (59:23.36-59:24.16):
us,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (59:23.74-59:26.42):
we have a fallback.And it's hard to
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (59:26.42-59:28.10):
imagine a world without
that knowledge,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (59:28.10-59:30.38):
unless maybe you
grew up with it.But
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (59:30.38-59:31.18):
even then,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (59:30.82-59:33.04):
you had doctors and
you had teachers.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (59:33.62-59:35.24):
When I was in the pun job,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (59:35.24-59:36.36):
I remember trying to think,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (59:36.44-59:37.60):
how can I help these people?
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (59:37.64-59:39.18):
And it was never
give them money.The
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (59:39.18-59:41.08):
money's not going to
do anything because
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (59:41.08-59:42.60):
it's the infrastructure
that's lacking.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (59:43.12-59:44.12):
But if you give them a phone,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (59:44.22-59:45.40):
and we did actually
do this with funded
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (59:45.40-59:47.30):
for them to have a
phone.The issue is
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (59:47.30-59:49.34):
without electricity
runs out of battery.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (59:50.09-59:51.39):
And you have to go into the city,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (59:51.39-59:52.19):
which costs money,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (59:52.09-59:53.53):
and there's no bus service.You have
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (59:53.53-59:54.97):
to wait for someone
with a motorbike
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (59:54.97-59:56.59):
to take you.Or
sometimes there's a guy
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (59:56.59-59:58.03):
with a horse and cart.Actually,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (59:58.03-59:59.73):
it was a donkey and
cart.And they might
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (59:59.73-60:00.53):
be able to take you,中文对照导读
这一段谈中国、阿联酋、韩国、能源丰裕和现代技术。Lights 担心中国和阿联酋推进核能很快，但威权治理可能忽视普通人和工人的安全代价；她更看好韩国，认为韩国发展了民用核能并把成熟设计出口到其他国家。她反复说，能源支撑文明，也带来繁荣。核能不只是给数据中心供电，而是关系到脱贫、医院、制造业和下一代医疗技术；大型传统核电仍是她认为支撑国家最稳妥的选择，SMR 可能适合数据中心，却未必能单独供给整个国家。她把德国和英国的高电价、制造业关闭与西方能源政策联系起来，认为西方「自己绊倒了自己」。谈话随后扩展到基因编辑、转基因食品和黄金大米。Lights 认为环保主义曾过度妖魔化这些技术，并以斯里兰卡去化肥、转向有机农业的政策作为反面案例，但节目没有展开完整的独立核查。最后她谈到手机：富裕国家把手机当作理所当然，却忽视了采矿、工厂和被外包的污染；对贫困地区，手机又可能提供银行、工作、信用、汇款、互联网和医疗信息。
60:00-62:15
English ASR original
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (60:00.43-60:02.03):
but it's not like
a regular service.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (60:02.03-60:02.83):
Anyway,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (60:02.39-60:04.71):
then you could sit
in a cafe and charge
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (60:04.71-60:06.61):
it,potentially,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (60:07.13-60:09.09):
and then bring it
home.But in that couple
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (60:09.09-60:11.39):
of hours that you
have juice on there,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (60:11.85-60:14.01):
you can set up banking.You can look
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (60:14.01-60:14.81):
up,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (60:14.29-60:16.87):
how do I treat my son
who has this illness?
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (60:16.87-60:19.67):
You can look up symptoms
that are actually
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (60:19.67-60:21.83):
tuberculosis.People
have trialled this
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (60:21.83-60:23.69):
where they found in
communities where
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (60:23.69-60:24.63):
they have tuberculosis,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (60:24.63-60:25.73):
one of the reasons
it spreads is because
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (60:25.73-60:28.47):
people don't know
how to prevent it.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (60:28.47-60:30.67):
So just telling them simple stuff,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (60:30.67-60:32.41):
wash your hands,don't touch fluids,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (60:32.75-60:34.19):
simple stuff that they don't know,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (60:34.19-60:37.27):
changes people's lives.It stops the
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (60:37.27-60:40.49):
spread.That is something
that I constantly
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (60:40.49-60:42.77):
hear people complain
about.I do it myself
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (60:42.77-60:45.68):
sometimes.I think
actually It's been
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (60:45.68-60:47.10):
such an equalizer,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (60:47.10-60:48.78):
maybe not for us because we already
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (60:48.78-60:49.94):
have everything else,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (60:50.12-60:51.90):
but for everyone else in the world,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (60:52.30-60:54.38):
that has been so
monumental.And actually
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (60:54.38-60:55.60):
AI is going to be as well,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (60:55.70-60:57.02):
even if we have
frustrations with it
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (60:57.02-60:57.92):
here,for them,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (60:57.92-61:00.58):
people are making software that you
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (61:00.58-61:02.70):
can use your voice,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (61:02.80-61:05.22):
so you don't have to
be literate.I mean,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (61:05.22-61:06.84):
that's life-changing technology,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (61:06.90-61:09.38):
that's game-changing.They're
also making
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (61:09.38-61:11.16):
apps where they'll
translate languages
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (61:11.36-61:14.00):
that are going out of use.So people
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (61:14.00-61:16.36):
can communicate and
access an entire
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (61:16.36-61:18.66):
world of knowledge,
essentially for free,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (61:18.66-61:19.58):
the cost of a phone,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (61:19.92-61:21.16):
occasionally being
able to charge it.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (61:21.36-61:22.70):
This still always comes down to,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (61:23.28-61:24.82):
ideally you want to
be able to use it
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (61:24.82-61:27.22):
24-7 so that the 50
people in the village
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (61:27.44-61:29.02):
aren't just sharing this one,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (61:29.02-61:29.82):
you know,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (61:30.15-61:32.43):
one piece of tech
that then runs out
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (61:32.43-61:33.77):
of battery.Well,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (61:33.77-61:37.31):
that sounds like the type of story,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (61:37.77-61:40.07):
if we tell more widely,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (61:40.75-61:43.03):
whether in fictional
terms or in documentary
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (61:43.03-61:43.83):
terms,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (61:43.99-61:45.49):
is the type of thing
that might change
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (61:45.49-61:46.53):
the narrative,right?
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (61:46.61-61:47.83):
From the one that you
were talking about,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (61:47.91-61:51.57):
you were growing up
with.I want to both
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (61:51.57-61:54.49):
thank you and I think apologize for
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (61:54.49-61:56.11):
mispronouncing your
name.Is it Zion?
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (61:56.23-61:57.03):
That's okay.Yes,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (61:56.77-61:59.68):
it is.It is.Okay.So
we have not been
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (61:59.68-62:01.30):
talking to Zion lights,uh,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (62:01.30-62:03.28):
that's,uh,but Zion lights,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (62:03.54-62:04.34):
uh,
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (62:03.74-62:07.02):
and the book is energy
is life.Thanks so
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (62:07.02-62:09.14):
much for talking to
reason.Thank you.
**Speaker (not reliably separated)** (62:09.14-62:09.94):
Thanks for having me on.中文对照导读
最后几分钟把手机和 AI 的作用推进到知识可及性。Lights 说，在缺少医生和正规服务的地方，用户哪怕只能偶尔在咖啡馆给手机充电，也可以查银行事务、疾病处理方法和症状。她提到社区防治结核病时，简单的洗手和避免体液接触等知识就可能减少传播。语音和翻译工具还可能帮助低识字率人群，或帮助语言正在消失的社群访问知识。她再次强调，真正让这些工具发挥作用的仍然是稳定电力和通信。主持人随后确认嘉宾姓名为 Zion Lights，提到《Energy Is Life》，双方致谢，节目结束。
Contenido relacionado
- Inicia sesión para comentar.