产品经理开始提交代码：Atlassian 首席产品与 AI 官 Tamar Yehoshua 讲三个真实项目｜Lenny's Podcast

她的判断：岗位在重叠，同时也在扩张

三件「做法变了」的事

例子一：Confluence 里，PM 开始提交代码

例子二：一个 0 到 1 的项目，PM 从划桨换成掌舵

例子三：Jira 这种体量，PM 不该去提代码

现在多做与少做了什么，以及量不出来的那部分

几个词

这一场值不值得看

人物背景与外部对照

完整中英双语逐字转录稿

00:00 - 10:00

Wow. It's so amazing to be in a room with so many awesome product leaders. I think this is the first time I've been together with so many product people in one room. Uh and so many of you I recognize and know it's it's really amazing. And with many of you, I've had conversations over the last year or two about what is our job and what is the role of a PM. So that's what I'm here to talk to you about. What are we actually seeing practically on the ground? If you remember back a year or two ago, if we can all remember that far back, everyone was pointing at everyone else's craft and saying, "Your job is going to go away." PMS were telling engineers their job was going to go away.

中文：哇。能够和这么多出色的产品负责人在同一个房间里，真是太棒了。我想这是我第一次和这么多产品人员聚在一起。嗯，我认识你们中的很多人，这真的很令人惊讶。在过去的一两年里，我和你们中的许多人讨论过我们的工作是什么，以及产品经理的角色是什么。所以这就是我今天要跟大家谈的话题。我们实际上在实践中看到的是什么？如果你们还记得一两年前，如果我们都能回忆那么久以前，那时每个人都在指责别人的工作，说，“你的工作将会消失。” 产品经理们告诉工程师，他们的工作将会消失。

PMs, designers were telling PMs, everyone was saying that everyone's job is going away. And everyone was actually really nervous that their job was going away. Thankfully, we are not hearing that anymore. What are we hearing today? Well, each job is overlapping. In fact, and there's a new era of the AI builder. If you listen to Lenny Lenny's podcast, if you talk to people at startups, if you read tweets on X, you will see that a lot of people are talking about the AI builder. And the AI builder job is real.

中文：产品经理、设计师们都在告诉产品经理，每个人都在说每个人的工作都要消失了。大家实际上真的很紧张，担心自己的工作会消失。幸运的是，我们现在不再听到这种说法。那我们现在听到的是什么呢？嗯，每个工作都在互相重叠。事实上，还有一个新的 AI 构建者时代。如果你听 Lenny Lenny 的播客，或者和初创公司的员工交谈，或者在 X 上阅读推文，你会看到很多人都在谈论 AI 构建者。而 AI 构建者的工作是真实存在的。

There are startups that are not hiring PMs or not hiring designers. They are hiring builders. There's job descriptions. There's builders in small companies. There's builders in large companies. And if you think about it, this has always been the case for founders. Founders have always when they started a company been the builder and really worn lots of hats. So I do believe that this is something that is very real that's happening and also very exciting. But what does this look like in a company with over 10,000 people? I'm sure many of you work in large companies that are not five person startups or 10 person startups and you listen to these podcasts and you kind of scratch your head and you say that would be really cool to work like that.

中文：有些初创公司不招聘产品经理，也不招聘设计师。他们招聘的是建设者。那里有职位描述。小公司里有建设者。大公司里也有建设者。如果你仔细想想，对于创始人来说，这一直都是如此。创始人在创办公司的时候一直都是建设者，实际上身兼多职。所以我确实相信这是一个非常真实的现象，也非常令人兴奋。但是，在一家拥有超过一万人的公司里，这会是什么样子呢？我相信你们中的许多人在大型公司工作，而这些公司不是五人或十人的初创公司，你们听这些播客时，可能会挠挠头，并觉得那样工作会非常酷。

I don't have that reality. So what I'm going to do is I'm going to talk to you about what it looks like at Atlassian. I'm not going to go into what the engineering teams are doing. Of course they're doing a lot. They're using coding agents. They're refactoring their code bases. There's a lot of work going on the on the engineering side. I'm going to focus on the PM and what's happening there. As we said, the roles are overlapping, but they are also expanding. So that's what we're seeing is the people everyone can do so much more than they that they could do before and it's exciting.

中文：我没有那种现实。因此，我打算做的是跟你谈谈在 Atlassian 的情况。我不会具体讨论工程团队在做什么。当然，他们做了很多事情。他们在使用编码代理，重构他们的代码库。在工程方面有很多工作正在进行。我将关注产品经理以及那里的情况。正如我们所说，角色是重叠的，但它们也在扩展。所以我们看到的是，人们每个人可以做的事情比以前更多，这令人兴奋。

So the job of a PM is really the same as it always was. What is your job? It's to find product market fit. It's to build products that people love. It's also to make sure you're building a business that people will actually pay for your products. None of that has really changed. It's how we do it that's changed. And what has changed? Obviously, AI tools have gotten much better and continue to get better at a rapid rate. And one of the questions that I get a lot from some of the people in this room is like, how do you stay on top of it all?

中文：所以，产品经理的工作实际上一直都是一样的。你的工作是什么？就是找到产品市场契合度。就是打造人们喜爱的产品。还要确保你所打造的业务，人们会真正为你的产品付费。这些都没有真正改变。改变的是我们的做法。那么，具体改变了什么呢？很明显，人工智能工具已经变得更强大，并且以快速的速度持续进步。我在这里遇到的很多人常问我的一个问题是，你如何掌握这一切的发展？

And the answer is you don't. So, I don't think anybody could. But the tip is that everything that you read on X, don't believe. You have to figure out what's actually working for your customers. So focus on the customer and what they can get out of the AI tools. The other thing that is changing is context. You've been hearing all about context graphs. You've been hearing about how you need to have an enterprise brain. Well, this is very real. You now can see through lots of different tools the context of your organization.

中文：答案是你无法做到。所以，我认为没有人能做到。但提示是，你在 X 上看到的所有内容都不要轻信。你必须弄清楚什么实际上对你的客户有效。所以要关注客户，以及他们能从 AI 工具中获得什么。另一件正在变化的事情是上下文。你一直在听到关于上下文图的消息。你一直在听到你需要拥有企业大脑。嗯，这是非常真实的。你现在可以通过许多不同的工具看到你组织的上下文。

And at Atlassian we built what we call the teamwork graph that you can see the con full context of your organization. So what does this mean for the PM? Well the PM used to be the person taking notes in meetings, following up on action items, communicating with go to market when things are going to launch. They don't have to do that anymore. We have tools that can do that. The other day, last week, Mike, our CEO, DM'd me and one of the product leads and says, "When when is some feature launching?" Five minutes later, he sent a screenshot of Rovo, which is Atlassian's AI product, and said, "This is what Rovo said.

中文：在 Atlassian，我们构建了我们称之为“团队合作图”的工具，你可以看到你组织的完整上下文。那么，这对产品经理意味着什么呢？以前，产品经理通常是会议中做笔记的人，跟进行动事项，与市场沟通产品何时发布。他们现在不必再做这些事情了。我们有工具可以完成这些工作。就在前几天，上周，我们的 CEO Mike 给我和一位产品负责人发了私信，说：“某个功能什么时候上线？”五分钟后，他发送了一张 Rovo 的截图，Rovo 是 Atlassian 的 AI 产品，并说：“这是 Rovo 的回答。”

Is it right?" We're like, "Yeah." And he said, "Sorry, I wasted your time." And so, what we are seeing is people have access to this information, but we also have to help them along so that they actually use it. There's change management involved, but PMS have a front row seat into how all of this is changing. And one of the things that PMs can do is focus on acceleration. We've all been hearing how things are moving so much faster, but the PM can really help accelerate what's happening in their team.

中文：“对吗？”我们就说，“对。”然后他说，“抱歉，我浪费了你们的时间。”所以，我们看到的是人们可以获取这些信息，但我们也必须帮助他们，以便他们真正使用这些信息。这其中涉及变更管理，而产品经理可以近距离观察这一切是如何变化的。产品经理可以做的一件事是专注于加速。我们都听说过事情发展得越来越快，但产品经理可以真正帮助加速他们团队中正在发生的事情。

At Atlassian, we think about it as a ship that is going. So you have a ship that is going through to get to your destination. How are you going to get to your destination faster? One of the things is intelligence plus context. So the intelligence of the models plus the context of your organization, how can you put that together to move faster? Now going back to the ship metaphor, are you as a PM, are you rowing or are you steering? What is the best way for you to make the ship go faster?

中文：在 Atlassian，我们把它看作是一艘正在前进的船。所以你有一艘船正在航行以到达你的目的地。你如何更快地到达目的地？其中一件事是智能加上上下文。所以模型的智能加上你组织的上下文，你如何将它们结合起来以更快前进？现在回到船的比喻，作为产品经理，你是在划桨还是在掌舵？让船更快前进的最佳方式是什么？

So we've done a bunch of experiments. We've organized teams in different ways, measured outputs, and the answer that we have come to is it depends. It depends what type of product it is. It depends on what phase in the product it is. So what I want to do now is actually talk through three concrete examples and what the role of the PM was in each one. Now one is a new feature in an existing codebase. Another is a zero to one product and another is enhancements in a very large existing codebase.

中文：所以我们做了很多实验。我们以不同的方式组织团队，测量产出，而我们得出的答案是，这取决于情况。取决于产品的类型，也取决于产品所处的阶段。现在我想要做的是，实际讲解三个具体的例子，以及产品经理在每一个例子中的角色。一个是现有代码库中的新功能；另一个是从零到一的产品；还有一个是在非常大的现有代码库中的增强功能。

All the examples are obviously using Atlassian products because that's what we use internally. But of course you can use all of this is true with whatever products your company uses. So we're going to start with Confluence. So Confluence recently launched two features called Remix with Rovo and Confluence slides. So remix is you highlight a piece of text, you remix it into multiple different formats. You choose the format and slides is you take a page and you click a button and it converts it into beautiful slides. Obviously these are you heavily based on AI.

中文：所有示例显然都在使用 Atlassian 产品，因为那是我们内部使用的产品。但当然，你也可以用你公司使用的任何产品做到同样的事情。所以我们将从 Confluence 开始。Confluence 最近推出了两个功能，叫做 Remix with Rovo 和 Confluence 幻灯片。Remix 是你高亮一段文本，然后将其混合成多种不同格式，你可以选择格式；幻灯片功能是你拿一个页面，点击一个按钮，它就会将其转换成漂亮的幻灯片。显然，这些功能都大量依赖于 AI。

When the team started, they didn't just say, "Here's what I want to build." They took a challenge of how do I build it much faster and how do I significantly change how I work? And again, in a big company, this is different than you have a clean slate and you're just starting. So, I'm going to go through what are some things that changed for the Confluence team. So, first PM started checking in code. I'm sure if I asked you to raise your hand, many of you are checking in code as well.

中文：当团队刚开始时，他们并不仅仅说：“这是我想要构建的东西。”他们面对的是一个挑战：如何更快地构建它，以及如何显著改变自己的工作方式？而且，在大公司里，这与从零开始的情况不同，所以我要讲一下 Confluence 团队的一些变化。首先，产品经理开始提交代码。我相信如果我让你们举手，很多人也在提交代码。

This PM Ya had never written any code, had never even used a terminal before, but she sat down with the engineering partner who actually built a harness for her to use that made it easier for her to check in code in the front end. And so sometimes you have to partner with somebody else to figure out how you can leverage the tools the best. She ended up checking in 26 PRs in a month, which was more than most of the engineers on the team. I asked her why. Why did she decide she was going to check in code?

中文：这个产品经理 Ya 以前从未写过任何代码，甚至从未使用过终端，但她坐下来与实际为她构建了一个工具的工程合作伙伴一起工作，这个工具使她更容易在前端检查代码。因此，有时你必须与别人合作，弄清楚如何最好地利用工具。她最终在一个月内提交了 26 个 PR，这比团队中大多数工程师都多。我问她为什么。她为什么决定要提交代码？

and she said there were so many things we needed to fix in the UX and we didn't have enough engineers to do it and I wanted the engineers to focus on higher level activities and this is something I could do. So she felt that this would accelerate the project. Next is evals. So I assume I hope most of you understand that evals is a significant part of your job now and that you're training yourselves or taking classes on how to do EVELs. different teams. Sometimes the PMs do eval, sometimes the engineers do evals.

中文：她说我们在用户体验（UX）上有很多需要修复的地方，而我们没有足够的工程师来完成这些工作，我希望工程师们专注于更高层次的活动，而这是我可以做的事情。所以她觉得这会加快项目进度。接下来是评估（evals）。所以我假设，也希望你们大多数人明白，现在评估是你们工作的重要部分，你们要自己进行培训或者参加课程来学习如何进行评估。不同的团队有不同的情况。有时是产品经理（PM）做评估，有时是工程师做评估。

Well, in this instance, the evals for something like Confluence slides was so important to get right. That the PMs had done them traditionally and they worked with the engineers to make sure that they relayed how they wanted the team to eval this product and then they got a 2x throughput in eval. The PMS in turn started using the LLM platform. We use Arize at Atlassian for debugging. So they were using the platform to find issues with the prompts and then send it to the engineers again faster. I think this one is my favorite.

中文：好吧，在这种情况下，对于像 Confluence 幻灯片这样的东西进行评估是非常重要的，需要做准确。PM 们传统上是自己做这些评估的，并且他们会与工程师合作，以确保传达他们希望团队如何评估这个产品，然后他们在评估中的产出提高了两倍。随后，PM 们开始使用 LLM 平台。我们在 Atlassian 使用 Arize 进行调试。所以他们使用该平台来发现提示中的问题，然后更快地再发送给工程师。我认为这是我最喜欢的一个案例。

They automated the fixing of design bugs. How many times have you seen the code and it didn't match the design? So they used Figma MCP and mapped the designs from Figma to the actual code and then automated the fixing with a coding agent. And so they could fix something like 14 bugs in an hour. So this again made the product much better. The last one was test creation. This the engineers went from creating a test in a half day to 10 minutes. Just huge throughput improvements. So in this example, the remix launched in 6 weeks, Confluence launched in 8 weeks.

中文：他们实现了设计缺陷修复的自动化。你有多少次见过代码与设计不匹配的情况？所以他们使用了 Figma MCP，将 Figma 中的设计映射到实际代码，然后通过编程代理自动修复这些问题。因此，他们可以在一小时内修复大约 14 个缺陷。这再次使得产品大大改进。最后一个是测试创建。工程师们从半天创建一个测试到 10 分钟完成。产出率大幅提升。在这个例子中，Remix 在 6 周内上线，Confluence 在 8 周内上线。

Now if you're at a startup, you might be like, "Oh my god, that's still a long time." But remember, this is enterprise software that has to be compliant, has to be secure, and sometimes doing this stuff takes the longest to get done to make sure your enterprise customers can use it. So what would have taken before AI about 6 months now took 6 weeks with much tighter iteration loops. So the iteration loops with the customers, with the the beta customers, and internally just fix things much faster. So taking a step back here, what was the role of the PM?

中文：现在如果你在一家初创公司，你可能会想，‘天哪，那还是挺久的。’但记住，这是企业软件，它必须符合规范，必须安全，有时候做这些事情需要最长的时间来确保你的企业客户可以使用它。所以以前大约需要 6 个月的工作，现在在 AI 的帮助下只用了 6 周，迭代周期更紧密。与客户、与测试版客户以及内部的迭代循环可以更快地修复问题。退一步说，PM（产品经理）的角色是什么呢？

The PM was actually rowing and checking in code. And this is what she decided was the fastest thing to make the ship go faster. The engineering manager gave her a clean isolated repository, which is very important. So nothing got messed up in the larger repository. And the team up front had a very intentional contribution uh model of who was going to do what and they blurred the roles by design and they said we're going to question existing processes. So this is one example. Next is a project called Rovo claw. Now Rovo is our product.

中文：产品经理实际上在划船和检查代码。这就是她决定让产品加速发布的最快方式。工程经理给了她一个干净隔离的仓库，这非常重要。因此，整个大仓库没有任何混乱。前端团队有一个非常有意图的贡献模型，明确谁负责什么，他们是有意模糊了角色，并说我们要质疑现有流程。这只是一个例子。接下来是一个名为 Rovo claw 的项目。现在 Rovo 是我们的产品。

10:00 - 20:00

Not to be confused. This was not a feature on Rovo. This was a zero to one pro project from the ground up written. Now it started with a PM Josh and a designer Kevin. They vibe coded the whole thing. They from soup to nuts got to a working alpha that they got customers using internally. And once they saw they were onto something, then they added engineers to the project. So then we got the PMs and the designers were still checking in code and the engineers were working as well. But Josh started to see that the engineers started veering off track because he was busy writing code and he one day is like wait a minute should I be spending my time coding?

中文：不要混淆。这不是 Rovo 的一个功能。这是一个从零到一的专业项目，从头开始编写的。它开始时有一位产品经理乔什和一位设计师凯文。他们一起编写了整个东西。他们从头到尾做出了一个可工作的 Alpha 版本，并在内部让客户使用。一旦他们看到自己有所成就，就给项目增加了工程师。所以后来我们有了产品经理，设计师仍然在提交代码，而工程师也在工作。但乔什开始发现工程师们开始偏离轨道，因为他忙于写代码，有一天他就想，等等，我应该花时间写代码吗？

Is this actually the highest leverage activity that I could be doing? So he decided to step back from the coding and to focus on what a PM usually does setting direction prioritizing and unlocking. And then things started moving much faster. The fact that he had started out by coding significantly helped him because he could understand what the blockers were. He could understand what the challenges were and it made for a much better environment of how he could steer the team. And then on the flip side, he also used AI to help him not do other things.

中文：这实际上是我能做的最高效活动吗？于是他决定从编码中退一步，专注于产品经理通常做的事情：设定方向、优先排序和解锁问题。然后事情开始进展得更快。他一开始就从编码做起，这一点对他帮助很大，因为他能够理解阻碍因素是什么，能够理解挑战在哪里，这为他如何引导团队创造了一个更好的环境。另一方面，他也利用人工智能来帮助自己不去做其他事情。

I hope most of you are not writing weekly reports by hand anymore. And if you are, you probably don't want to admit it, but please go and write build an agent to do it. So Josh used uh Rovo claw and built an agent in the product he was developing to give the weekly updates on itself which were super amusing and so he no longer writes weekly updates. So in this instance the PM started out rowing and then shifted to steering because it was a different phase of the project and that's what he needed to do to make the project go faster.

中文：我希望你们大多数人不再手写每周报告了。如果你们还在手写，你们可能不想承认，但请去创建一个代理来完成它。所以 Josh 使用了 Rovo claw，并在他正在开发的产品中构建了一个代理来提供关于它自身的每周更新，这些更新非常有趣，因此他不再写每周更新了。在这个例子中，项目经理一开始在划桨，然后转向掌舵，因为这是项目的不同阶段，这是他为了让项目推进更快所需要做的事情。

So he was unfocused on unblocking the team whatever he needed to do at that point in time and he had the ability to contribute code which really helped him. So he focused on his highest leverage activities. Okay, last example, Jira. Most of you have probably heard of Jira. Many of you have used it. Jira has been around for over 20 years. It's a huge complicated codebase. We have things like it started on data center and then moved to the cloud. It it supports isolated cloud. It supports FedRAMP. It supports the customizations.

中文：所以他当时并没有专注于解除团队的障碍，无论他需要做什么，他都有能力贡献代码，这真的对他有帮助。因此，他专注于最高杠杆的活动。好，最后一个例子，Jira。你们大多数人可能都听说过 Jira，很多人也用过它。Jira 已经存在超过 20 年了。这是一个庞大而复杂的代码库。我们有类似的情况，它最初是在数据中心启动的，然后迁移到了云端。它支持隔离云，支持 FedRAMP，支持定制化。

and you have we have hundreds of thousands of customers that you can't mess up. So this instance of PM checking in code can be kind of dangerous. So we didn't want to do that. But we also had to bring Jira into the AI age. And our goal was to make it AI first. And so the PMs and the engineers were building AI features in Jira to help the customers use AI to do their software development, which was really fun. like how are you reinventing the software development life cycle with the tools that you're building and how do you make sure you can assign to agents how do you make sure you can seam seamlessly use agents for everything in Jira so this was a big project for the team and from in progress to shipped their throughput was about 3x what it normally was and they shipped in about 10 weeks 22 userfacing features how did they do it what were the changes they made so let's start with prototyping.

中文：而你有，我们有成千上万的客户，你不能搞砸。所以这个 PM 提交代码的情况可能有点危险，所以我们不想那样做。但我们也必须把 Jira 带入 AI 时代。我们的目标是让它以 AI 为先。因此，PM 和工程师们正在 Jira 中构建 AI 功能，以帮助客户使用 AI 进行软件开发，这真的很有趣。比如，你如何用你构建的工具重新定义软件开发生命周期？你如何确保可以分配任务给代理？你如何确保可以在 Jira 中无缝使用代理来处理所有事务？这是团队的一个大项目，从进行中到交付，他们的吞吐量约为平时的三倍，他们在大约 10 周内交付了 22 个面向用户的功能。他们是怎么做到的？他们做了哪些改变？那么，我们先从原型设计开始。

Again, everybody here is prototyping that. I'm 100% sure. But what did they do to make the prototyping more effective? So, first they started with Loom. And in a Loom video, you could record the UI that you wanted to change or you could record here the Figma designs with a talk track or you could just brainstorm that goes into a recording and then Loom has the ability from the recording to automatically create work items. And then from the work item the PM can move it to in progress and then that automatically kicks off a coding agent.

中文：再说一次，这里每个人都在做原型。我百分之百确定。但是他们做了什么来让原型制作更高效呢？首先，他们从 Loom 开始。在 Loom 视频中，你可以录制你想要更改的 UI，或者录制带有讲解的 Figma 设计，或者只是把头脑风暴录制下来，然后 Loom 有能力从录制内容自动创建工作项。然后 PM 可以将工作项移动到“进行中”，这会自动启动一个编码代理。

So this whole thing was very streamlined and the coding agent wrote code in the actual front-end repository and used a managed agent in the cloud. So PMS didn't have to deal with their local environment. So then you got code that was already compliant, accessible and in the Atlassian design language. So when they were done, if they wanted to implement the prototype, it was much more seamless and the handoff to developers was much faster. So having the right environment for prototyping is key of getting it faster into the engineers hands. So this was a big unlock.

中文：所以整个过程非常简化，编码代理在实际的前端代码库中编写代码，并使用了云端的托管代理。因此，PMS 不必处理他们的本地环境。这样，你得到的代码已经符合规范、可访问，并且符合 Atlassian 设计语言。当他们完成后，如果想要实现原型，过程会更加顺畅，而且交接给开发人员也会更快。所以拥有适合原型设计的环境对于更快地交到工程师手中至关重要。这是一个巨大的突破。

Next was triaging feedback. As you can imagine, if you're use if you're making changes in Jira at a company like Atlassian, everybody in the company is using it and you get tons of feedback. So, what did we do? We took the feedback and the bugs that came in through Slack and we used the Jira agent in Slack to triage them and then automatically send them to the coding agent for fixes. Again, saving a huge amount of time for engineering. And then we also did a lot of user studies for customer insights.

中文：接下来是对反馈进行分类。可以想象，如果你在像 Atlassian 这样的公司中使用 Jira 进行更改，公司里的每个人都在使用它，你会收到大量反馈。那么，我们做了什么呢？我们将通过 Slack 收到的反馈和漏洞进行分类，并使用 Slack 中的 Jira 代理进行处理，然后自动将其发送给编码代理进行修复。同样，这为工程节省了大量时间。然后，我们还进行了大量用户研究以获取客户洞察。

So here we used Jira service management to take and review all of the videos from the customer insights. We got over 900 pieces of feedback. We use used a Rovo agent to then triage and categorize them. And we were very happily surprised with the quality that we got of the triage. So then we knew what to send to engineering to fix. All of these things together in this instance the PM was clearly steering. The PM had to focus on unblocking the engineers in order to make the project go faster. That included processing feedback internally, externally more effectively, and building prototypes that were set for reuse.

中文：所以在这里，我们使用了 Jira 服务管理来收集并审核来自客户洞察的所有视频。我们收到了超过 900 条反馈。然后我们使用 Rovo 代理来对这些反馈进行分流和分类。我们对分流的质量感到非常惊喜。于是我们就知道该将哪些信息发送给工程团队进行修复。在这个实例中，所有这些工作都是由产品经理明确指导的。产品经理必须专注于解除工程师的阻碍，以加快项目进度。这包括更有效地在内部和外部处理反馈，以及构建可重复使用的原型。

And as I said in the beginning, PMS did not check in code to the production environment. So, if you put all this together, what are things that PMs are doing now that they weren't doing before? They're obviously prototyping and testing. They're writing evals. They're going deeper on customer feedback. They're consuming information at a much higher rate rate. And all of this works if all the AI tools understand the context of your organization. And that is built on top of at Atlassian the teamwork graph. And then what are they not doing?

中文：正如我一开始所说的，PMS 并没有把代码提交到生产环境中。那么，如果你把这一切结合起来，PM 现在正在做的以前没有做的事情有哪些呢？他们显然在进行原型设计和测试。他们在撰写评估。他们更深入地了解客户反馈。他们以更高的速度获取信息。所有这些都有效，前提是所有 AI 工具都能理解你们组织的上下文。而这就是在 Atlassian 的团队图上构建的。那么，他们没有做的事情有哪些呢？

They are not doing manual updates. They're not compiling research by hand. They're not creating SLI uh slides from scratch. I would love to say that there are no synchronous meetings, but that would be an exaggeration. uh but there are I believe fewer synchronous meetings. Well, how did we do this? What was our playbook at Atlassian? When I talk to people at startups, they tell me hire people that are AI native. Well, we have a lot of PMs already who are amazing PMs at Atlassian. So, we want them to become AI native.

中文：他们不进行手动更新。他们不人工整理研究资料。他们不从零制作 SLI 幻灯片。我很想说没有同步会议，但那会有些夸张。不过，我相信同步会议确实更少了。我们是如何做到的呢？在 Atlassian 我们的操作手册是什么？当我跟初创公司的人交流时，他们告诉我，要招聘 AI 原生的人才。嗯，我们在 Atlassian 已经有很多非常优秀的产品经理。所以，我们希望他们成为 AI 原生。

We want to help them be able to learn the skills that they need to learn uh in order to build products for our customers. So we introduced something that we call the AI fluency index and this is to help people understand where they need to go and we have six capabilities in the fluency index. Things like do you understand how to use the tools? Do you understand how to write emails? Do you understand how to automate data insights? Can you prototype? And do you have the level of technical literacy that you need?

中文：我们希望帮助他们能够学习所需的技能，以便为我们的客户构建产品。所以我们引入了一个我们称之为 AI 流利度指数的东西，这是为了帮助人们了解他们需要达到的水平。流利度指数中有六项能力，比如你是否理解如何使用工具？你是否理解如何写电子邮件？你是否理解如何自动化数据洞察？你能否进行原型设计？以及你是否具备所需的技术素养水平？

And then we have an index from one to five. One is curious, five is pioneering, three is capable, and we do not expect every PM to be a five at everything. And this is not a ladder. This is for development. So that you have a northstar on the skills that you need to be developing because of course this changes all the time. The ladder is about outcomes and what you produce for your customer. This is helping PMS understand the skills that they should be attaining. We do expect people to get to an L3 in all of these over time and you should understand what your team needs.

中文：然后我们有一个从一到五的指数。一代表好奇，五代表开创性，三代表有能力，我们并不期望每个产品经理在每件事上都是五分。这不是一种阶梯。这是为了发展。这样你就可以有一个北极星，指导你需要发展的技能，因为当然这些技能是不断变化的。阶梯是关于结果以及你为客户产生的价值。这是帮助产品经理理解他们应该掌握的技能。我们确实期望人们随着时间的推移在所有这些方面都达到三级，你也应该了解你的团队需要什么。

You should understand what is the most important point for your team and that you focus on getting to an L5. How do we train PM? So we want them to become AI fluent. Uh we've tried a bunch of different things and the thing that stuck the most was our AI builder weeks. So, our AI builder week is once a quarter. We take a week where you're not doing your regular work and we train PMs and designers. It starts with bringing in external speakers. Shout out to Claire who came to our last builder week.

中文：你应该理解对于你的团队来说最重要的点是什么，并且专注于达到 L5。我们如何培训产品经理（PM）？所以我们希望他们能够熟练掌握人工智能。我们尝试了很多不同的方法，而最有效的是我们的 AI 构建者周。AI 构建者周每季度举行一次。在这一周，你不会处理日常工作，而是培训产品经理和设计师。培训从邀请外部讲者开始。向上一次构建者周来的 Claire 致敬。

And then we have PMs internally in the organization who are more advanced in certain skills training other PMs. And then we have people do a project. So it depending on what it is, they can work with their teams, they can work with other people that but they do a project to use the skills they're learning. This has been incredibly successful. We've had over a thousand people go through our builder weeks. We've built over 120 new workflows that people are using after the builder weeks. So what are the focus and we focus on one thing each time.

中文：然后我们在组织内部有一些产品经理在某些技能上更为先进，他们会培训其他产品经理。然后我们会让人们做一个项目。所以这取决于具体内容，他们可以与自己的团队合作，也可以与其他人合作，但他们会做一个项目来运用所学的技能。这非常成功。我们已经有超过一千人参加过我们的建造者周。建造者周之后，我们已经创建了超过 120 个新的工作流程，人们正在使用这些工作流程。那么我们的重点是什么呢？我们每次都会专注于一件事。

So the first one was prototyping. The second one was uh eval. Third one was how do you build agents? And then the the most recent one was checking in code. We have talked to customers a lot about this and we've actually built an AI builder week in a box. You can find it in our website where it shows you kind of the agendas that we've had and how we've utilized them. Okay. So now we've told the PMS where what they're going to achieve. We've trained them. And what is a question I get from customers all the time is how are you measuring outcomes?

中文：所以第一个是原型设计。第二个是评估。第三个是如何构建代理？然后最近的一个是检查代码。我们已经和客户讨论了很多这个问题，并且我们实际上开发了一个 AI 构建者一周套件。你可以在我们的网站上找到它，里面展示了我们的一些议程以及我们是如何利用它们的。好了，现在我们已经告诉项目经理们他们要实现的目标。我们已经对他们进行了培训。我经常从客户那里收到的一个问题是，你们如何衡量成果？

I'll be honest, we haven't figured it out. I don't think anyone has figured it out. I talked to a lot of people about this and everyone is I mean it's the age-old how do you measure developer velocity. Um we are measuring PRs deployed not PRs written but PR is deployed to production. We're measuring features delivered. It's a little tricky to figure out when the feature started but from idea to delivery in the customer's hands and usage. Obviously you want to have the right OKRs. You want to make sure that your OKRs being met and like overall throughput.

中文：说实话，我们还没有弄明白。我觉得没有人真正弄明白。我和很多人谈过这个，每个人都是——我是说，这是一个古老的问题：如何衡量开发者的速度。嗯，我们在衡量的是已部署的 PR，而不是已写的 PR，而是已部署到生产环境的 PR。我们在衡量已交付的功能。确切地确定功能开始的时间有点棘手，但从想法到交付到客户手中并开始使用。显然，你希望有合适的 OKR，你要确保你的 OKR 得到实现，以及整体的产出。

20:00 - 21:31

Sometimes it's easier to measure the throughput of an individual team versus an organization. So you want to do both. You want to do make sure teams are working faster and organizations are working faster. So if you have ideas of how you're measuring, let me know. But we are working actively each quarter. We have experiments that teams are running in different ways and we look at what we can measure on the outcome. So bringing this all together as I said the roles are expanding each role is expanding and I think the way I look at it PMS can do more to get their jobs done more effectively and better and they can do more to deliver more to their customers.

中文：有时候衡量单个团队的吞吐量比衡量整个组织的吞吐量更容易。所以你希望两者都做。你希望确保团队的工作速度更快，组织的工作速度也更快。所以如果你有衡量的方法，告诉我。但我们每个季度都在积极工作。我们有团队以不同方式进行的实验，并且我们会看看我们能在结果上衡量到什么。所以把这一切综合起来，正如我所说，每个角色都在扩展，每个角色都在扩展。我认为我看的方式是，产品经理可以做更多事情来更有效、更好地完成他们的工作，他们也可以做更多事情来为客户提供更多价值。

I think this is the best time in the world to be a PM. I think it's super exciting. I am an optimist and I think we'll all be here 10 years from now. But I really think that this you guys are all so lucky to be here today. So that's it. Thank you.

中文：我认为现在是成为总理的最佳时期。我觉得非常令人兴奋。我是一个乐观主义者，我认为十年后我们都会在这里。但我真的认为你们今天能在这里真是太幸运了。就这些。谢谢你们。