关于意识，我们其实一无所知：Michael Pollan 谈植物、微生物组与迷幻药｜Huberman Lab
Huberman Lab 请来《如何改变你的心智》作者 Michael Pollan：从意识的定义讲到植物智能、微生物组、迷幻药与食物政治，还有他自己做的那场戒咖啡因实验；文末附完整中英双语逐字稿。
这是 Huberman Lab 的新一期，两个小时零两分钟，嘉宾是迈克尔·波伦（Michael Pollan），题目是意识12。波伦是那种一开口就自带分量的作者：他写过《杂食者的两难》（The Omnivore's Dilemma），写过讲人类与植物如何互相驯化的《欲望植物学》（The Botany of Desire），2018 年那本《如何改变你的心智》（How to Change Your Mind）把迷幻药医学重新推回公众讨论3。他是加州大学伯克利分校新闻学院的教授，今年 2 月刚出了一本新书《A World Appears: A Journey into Consciousness》4。
这场对话的形式是主持人安德鲁·休伯曼（Andrew Huberman）提问、波伦讲述，从意识的定义一路走到植物、微生物组、迷幻药，最后落在食物政治与一杯咖啡上。休伯曼是斯坦福医学院的神经生物学与眼科学教授，也是这档播客的主持人。想判断要不要花两小时听完，读完下面这份摘要就够了；想核对原话，文末附了完整的中英双语逐字稿。
关于意识，他们先承认了一件事
波伦在开场就说得很直：他把市面上关于意识的理论读了一遍，结论是我们其实不知道脑物质是怎么产生意识的——如果意识真是这样产生的话。他更进一步：也许脑并不产生意识，而只是「接收」意识，就像收音机接收电波。「你不会在电视机里去找那个播天气预报的女人，」他说，「她不在那里，她在别处。」
休伯曼补了一句行内的实情：神经科学家曾被教着绕开意识这个题目，早年间谁碰它谁「死」，只有拿到奖项、有了地位的人才敢公开谈。
接下来是几个定义。最简单的一个是主观体验：你的烤面包机没有主观体验；波伦顺手也把 AI 划到了这一边。更经典的一个来自哲学家托马斯·内格尔（Thomas Nagel）1974 年的文章《成为一只蝙蝠是什么感觉》——判断标准是：如果「成为某个东西」有某种感觉，那它就是有意识的5。
波伦随后做了一个在他看来很有用的区分：感受性（sentience）与意识（consciousness）。感受性是更底层的一层，指对环境有觉察、能分辨变化是好是坏；这一层可能是生命普遍具有的，植物、单细胞生物也许都有。意识则是人类「做感受性」的方式——在底层之上，我们还加上了「知道自己知道」、自我反思、情绪等等。每个物种的感受性都按自己的身体、感官、所处的时间空间尺度而不一样，拿人的版本当所有人的标准，在他看来是很奇怪的一件事。
植物算不算有意识
休伯曼先设了门槛：细菌能感光，能分辨早晚，能趋利避害，可它们「知道」自己在这么做吗？
波伦的回答是：不一定都是程序化的，植物会面对新情况。他举了几个实验。把一株玉米放进迷宫，在某个角落放硝酸铵肥料，它的根会找出通往肥料的最快路径——这不是它在自然界会遇到的场景，需要的是解决问题的能力。播放毛虫啃叶子的声音，植物会把毒素或难吃的化学物质送到叶片上自卫6；听见水管里的流水声，根会朝声音的方向长过去7。他说植物大约有二十种感觉，人有五六种：它们能感重力、感酸碱度、感养分是在变好还是变坏。
最能说明问题的是麻醉。把捕蝇草放进钟罩，通入氙气或别的麻醉气体，昆虫越过它的触发阈值，它不再合上。问题就来了：麻醉状态下植物「失去」的到底是什么？波伦在这里不用「意识」这个词，他用的是感受性。他还提醒，我们连麻醉剂在人身上怎么起效都没搞清楚——氙气是惰性气体，却能让人失去知觉。
自我从哪来，以及没有自我的意识
休伯曼从细胞层面切入：神经细胞在生长时就知道「自己」和「别的细胞」的区别，靠化学的吸引与排斥把自己和他人分开，这种自我回避长出了神经元的美丽分叉。波伦说植物的根也是一样：亲缘植物之间会共享土壤，同种的非亲缘植物则会竞争；一株被别的植物遮阴会长高去抢光，被自己遮阴就不会。
但意识可以没有自我。波伦提到冥想者与迷幻药能带来「无自我的意识」，佛教早就知道这件事。他给了一个让人印象深刻的数字：人每天早上醒来，大约要花 500 毫秒重新组装「我是谁」；换到一个陌生的酒店房间，这个过程大约要 750 毫秒。
微生物组：我们可能只是细菌的容器
休伯曼抛出一个让他自己睡不着的猜想：人类会不会只是微生物群的容器——这个说法他归给斯坦福的贾斯汀·索嫩伯格（Justin Sonnenburg）8。
波伦说这个想法也让他睡不着，但接着把这条路铺开：细菌比我们古老得多，它们需要一个能到处走、能握手、能社交的动物来扩张自己的地盘；它们也确实在影响我们的情绪。他称这是一种「既瘆人又美丽」的双向关系——我们把自己的一部分代谢外包给细菌，细菌还给我们的产物包括谷氨酸、GABA、血清素，以及短链脂肪酸：这些既是大脑的燃料，也能安抚情绪、减少炎症。我们的身体里，细菌的基因数量远超人类自己的基因，而且我们离不开它们9。
休伯曼顺着开了个玩笑：也许人类去不成火星，是因为细菌不想去；而那种过于卫生的太空食品，对细菌并不友好。
感受先于思考：脑干、达马西奥与索姆斯
波伦承认，他长期认为意识是人类的高级成就，长在大脑皮层上。而另一条线索来自安东尼奥·达马西奥（Antonio Damasio）与南非神经科学家马克·索姆斯（Mark Solms）：意识不起始于皮层的思考，而起始于脑干对身体的登记1011。脑存在的目的是让身体活着，它有各种稳态的设定点；饿这种信号先在上脑干被登记，皮层随后才帮你想象食物、帮你订餐厅。用波伦的话说，感受的地位与思想不同——感受是躯体性的，因为你有身体而被强化。
这里休伯曼搬出了威廉·詹姆斯（William James）那个反直觉的顺序：先心率飙升，然后脑才说「恐惧」。波伦补充，痛是一种意识现象，却可以不需要皮层——天生没有皮层的儿童、被切除皮层的动物，仍有表现出意识体验的行为。
这条线索没有解决那个「难问题」：感受究竟是被谁感受到的？达马西奥的说法是感受「自发地成为意识」，休伯曼的回应是「『自发』这两个字在这里干了太多活」。
身体如何改写判断：迷走神经、语言与一块生姜
休伯曼认为身体信号很精确，只是我们缺少描述它的语言。波伦举了迷走神经的数字：大约 80% 的信号是从身体流向大脑，下行的只有 15% 到 20%。休伯曼确认了这一点。
他引用了一位在 UCSF 做神经外科的老朋友爱德华·张（Edward Chang）的句子——「所有语言都只是被塑形过的呼气」。波伦接着讲了一个很能说明心身整合的实验：一组人吃安慰剂、一组人吃生姜粉，然后读那些在道德上令人厌恶的场景；结果生姜影响了他们的道德判断12。他的结论是，把心灵与身体分开是错误的方向，这套系统是高度整合的。
迷幻药、自我与敬畏
波伦说，迷幻药界的长期梦想是削弱自我、增加亲社会连接，但这类药既能带来自我消解，也能带来自我膨胀。
他讲了自己一次高剂量裸盖菇素的体验：自我炸成了一片蓝色便利贴组成的云，往下飘，汇成一摊蓝色颜料；他在旁边看着这一切，完全平静。他当时的念头是：「对，我就是蓝色颜料，这就是我。」他留给自己的遗产不是那次体验本身，而是此后更能看见自我在玩什么把戏——「那是我的自我」，它只是众多声音里的一个。
自我消解还有其他路径：冥想，以及敬畏。伯克利研究敬畏的心理学家达彻·凯尔特纳（Dacher Keltner）做过一个实验：先让受试者在方格纸上画下自己，然后给一段敬畏体验（比如漂流），再画一次；第二次，他们把自己画成只有原来约三分之一大13。波伦说，自我很重要——写一本书需要六年，你得知道你还是同一个人；但自我同时也是个陷阱。
还有一种「集体意识」的版本：意识是一个场，存在于我们之外，我们只是参与其中。波伦不排除泛心论——桌上每一颗粒子都有极小的一点意识，组合起来成了我们。他提到艾伦研究所的神经科学家克里斯托夫·科赫（Christof Koch），一个立场坚定的唯物主义者，在亲身服用死藤水之后公开表示相信意识存在于大脑之外，而且态度不可动摇14。
过滤器理论：柏格森、赫胥黎与针灸
两种模型被摆在一起：大脑在内部生成意识，或者意识本来就在外面、大脑只是检测与接收它。波伦说这是过滤器理论的传统，法国哲学家亨利·柏格森（Henri Bergson）与奥尔德斯·赫胥黎（Aldous Huxley）都写过，赫胥黎把它叫「减压阀」——过滤器只放行「一丁点意识」让人能活下去，全接收会被淹没。
他给了一个类比：电磁场一百多年前才被发现，它携带信息、肉眼不可见；那么有没有可能还存在另一种场。休伯曼提到针灸——某些穴位确实能可靠地增加或减少炎症，现在已经有了严格的科学验证；波伦说这像是古人对身体另一套系统早就有所察觉。
AI 能有意识吗
伯克利心理学家艾莉森·高普尼克（Alison Gopnik）的一个观点被搬了出来：所谓的「难问题」也许本身就问错了——意识可能不是一个单一的东西，而像「生命力」「燃素」那样，是若干不同问题的合称，可以拆成自我、情绪、自我反思等几块15。
波伦的态度很明确：他不认为 AI 有意识。他给出的推理是——如果意识源于感受，而感受需要一具脆弱的、会死的身体，那么计算机不会有感受。他补了一句锋利的区分：模拟一种感受，和模拟一种思想，是两回事——模拟下棋等于真的在下棋，模拟感受却不等于感受。
他顺带批评了「大脑是一台计算机」这个隐喻：大脑里没有硬件与软件的区分，神经元也不是晶体管，它受化学物质与振荡的影响。控制论创始人诺伯特·维纳（Norbert Wiener）有一句话被他反复引用——「隐喻的代价是永恒的警惕」。
记忆、量子，与一个还没解决的问题
休伯曼讲了两个记忆实验（分别出自 MIT 的利根川进与加州大学欧文分校的马克·梅福德）：记忆并不需要特定神经元在特定的时间顺序里放电，就像把琴键乱敲一遍，那首歌照样能被听出来；同一个神经元会参与多个记忆，而记忆本身会把大脑的物理结构改掉。波伦顺着说，如果一台计算机的硬件不停地变，它就没法用了——人脑恰恰是那样的。
量子也被提到了。波伦引了加来道雄（Michio Kaku）讲量子计算机的说法：它不是线性地把问题一步步解完，而是一次同时完成。量子纠缠、非局域性、实在论的失效，这些都是物理学的难题；传统上认为量子效应只发生在极小尺度，可它也可能在所有尺度上发生——真正难的是温暖潮湿的大脑。波伦承认自己并不懂量子物理，但他判断，未来五十年人们会把量子现实与意识放到一起来谈。
从花园到食物政治：一个西瓜与一群母亲
波伦讲了他为什么会变成现在这个人。四五岁时他在长岛郊区，因为一颗西瓜籽开始种东西：把籽埋进土里、忘了，到了九月发现一个足球那么大的西瓜，他摘下来跑过水泥露台去给母亲看。园艺让人主动进入自然，而不是旁观自然——它的前提是承认「植物有它自己的利益」，你满足它的利益，它才给你想要的。他的第一本书《Second Nature》就来自这里。
他回忆了刚去世的温德尔·贝里（Wendell Berry）——诗人、农民、散文家，2026 年 8 月 31 日去世，92 岁16。贝里教给他的东西之一，是重新理解人与自然的争执：我们与自然有一场正当的争执，关系应该更像婚姻，而不是支配。
话题转到食物政治。他写过一篇 8000 字的《纽约时报》文章，跟着一头牛从授精到屠宰，后来成了《杂食者的两难》的一章；交稿时编辑想删掉写草饲牛的那几段，他坚持留下。几周后，奥克兰一家肉铺的屠夫告诉他：那一周已经有六个人来问草饲牛肉了。他说自己喜欢写那种能指出方向、并且让人看到个体仍有选择的东西——「我们需要希望，它就是我们的空气。」
他接着讲了这轮变化里最有意思的一件事。迷幻药的政治版图翻转了：右翼现在热衷于为退伍军人推进伊博格因，前得州州长里克·佩里（Rick Perry）自称是「一个信奉心脏医学的粗人」；白宫 2026 年 4 月签了一道行政命令，加速对伊博格因等迷幻药治疗严重精神疾病的审查17。波伦提到的「两个里克」里，另一个是 MAPS 的创始人里克·多布林（Rick Doblin）；多布林曾在一屋子退伍军人面前说自己越战时是拒服兵役者，房间先安静、随后有人笑了，他觉得那是他们欣赏他的诚实18。
食物这边出现的是同一种组合。他说肯尼迪（RFK Jr.）讲得漂亮，但染料不是真正的健康问题，而且这届政府正在给农药大规模松绑；不过肯尼迪确实把一群人拉进了政治，就是那些有重病孩子、想用饮食去治的母亲——她们自称 MAHA 妈妈之前，就已经在驱车一百英里找干净食物，跟韦斯顿·普莱斯基金会这类组织连在一起。他讲了一个具体的例子：一项本来会把农药厂商从所有诉讼里豁免出去的条款被塞进拨款法案，缅因州众议员、有机农场主谢莉·平格里（Chellie Pingree）与 MAHA 活动人士合作，把它从法案里剥了出来19。波伦说，这正是需要的那种政治：左右站在一起。
咖啡因：他自己做的那场「蠢实验」
最后二十分钟聊的是一杯咖啡。波伦写过一篇文章，讲他做的一场「彻头彻尾的蠢实验」——把咖啡因彻底停掉，后来收进《This Is Your Mind on Plants》里。
起点是约翰斯·霍普金斯的精神药理学家罗兰·格里菲斯（Roland Griffiths）给他的一个方法：想理解一种被习惯性使用的药物，唯一的办法是完全停掉，直到它从身体里清空。波伦从 8 到 10 岁就开始喝咖啡——为的是在早餐时和常不在家的父亲待一会儿。断掉的头几天像得了流感，注意力散了，写不了东西；他坚持了大约三个月，还是觉得自己不像自己。
他学到的结论并不反咖啡因：咖啡因不是坏东西，正面健康效应可以一直覆盖到每天七八杯，再往上问题才开始出现；它有助于帕金森病、能降低血压；有些好处并不来自咖啡因，而来自咖啡与茶里的多酚，对肠道菌群有好处。戒断结束后的第一杯，他形容为「最好的用药体验」，比任何一次迷幻体验都强烈——然后第二杯就不特别了。后来他试过一周只喝一天，周六那杯咖啡很美妙，直到某个周四赶稿时他破了例，又滑回每天一杯。
他对咖啡没有恶意，说它是「上帝给人类的一件礼物」。他的比喻是：咖啡因是「没有那些麻烦的可卡因」。
几个词
感受性（sentience）：对环境有觉察、能分辨好坏变化的能力，波伦把它当作意识的更底层。难问题（the hard problem）：为什么物理过程会伴随主观体验。自我消解（ego dissolution）：迷幻或冥想体验中「我」的边界消融。过滤理论：意识本来就存在，大脑的作用是限制而不是产生它。多酚（polyphenols）：咖啡与茶里的一类化合物，与肠道菌群有关。MAHA：Make America Healthy Again，2020 年代中期围绕食品与慢性病形成的一股政治力量。
这一期值不值得听
值得听的人：想知道「意识研究现在卡在哪里」的人——这期给的不是结论，是一张地图：几大理论、几个关键人名、以及波伦自己坦白的「我们不知道」。下半段的价值在另一处：一个写了三十年食物与植物的人，怎么把迷幻药、食物政治和一杯咖啡放在同一个框架里讲。
可以不听的人：想要可执行建议的人。这是一场思想对话，没有工具、没有步骤；两个小时的密度分布不均，后半段的食物政治部分与主线关系更松。
人物背景与外部对照
波伦的履历决定了他有资格谈这个题目：他写食物（《杂食者的两难》）、写植物（《欲望植物学》）、写迷幻药（《如何改变你的心智》），2026 年 2 月出版《A World Appears》，把上面几条线收到「意识」这一个问题上3。节目里他提到的多数研究都有公开出处，可核对的包括内格尔的蝙蝠文章、植物对声音与振动的两组实验、微生物代谢物的那条通路、以及敬畏与自我缩小的实验。节目最后他提到自己正在写一本关于微生物组的书，休伯曼邀他出版后再来一次。
完整中英双语逐字转录稿
逐字稿说明：本稿由本期官方完整音频转写而成，带讲话人分离（Andrew Huberman 与 Michael Pollan）与来自音频的真实时间码；英文措辞未作删改，仅对少量专名做了订正（Michael Pollan、Wendell Berry、Thoreau、John Muir、The Botany of Desire、Huberman Lab 等），识别器偶尔把两个人名或术语听错的地方以正确写法呈现。中文译文由机器翻译生成，只对专名做了统一，未逐句人工润色。节目中的赞助商口播（Eight Sleep、Rorra、AG1、Function、Mateina）与片尾的另一条广告都在原始音频里，一并保留。时间轴每 10 分钟标注一次。
00:00 - 10:00
Michael Pollan：
I came out of this experience of studying consciousness and looking at all the theories of consciousness. I don't want to give it away, but we have no idea about consciousness, really, how brain matter generates consciousness, if indeed that's how it happens. And there are people who doubt that's how it happens. It could be that the brain channels consciousness, right? I mean, that if you conceive of consciousness as like electromagnetic waves... Brains are like radio receivers or TV receivers. You wouldn't look in the TV set for the woman who gave you the weather report. She's not there. She's somewhere else. So I don't know that that's true, but coming out of this experience of studying this, I don't dismiss an idea like that. You have to keep an open mind because our presumption that, you know, consciousness is an emergent property of brain complexity, that idea doesn't have much traction.中文：在经历了研究意识并审视了所有关于意识的理论之后，我有了一些体会。我不想全部透露，但我们对意识其实一点也不了解，真的，不知道大脑物质是如何产生意识的，如果确实是这样发生的话。而且有人怀疑意识的产生并不是这样。也有可能大脑只是引导意识，对吧？我的意思是，如果你把意识想象成类似电磁波……大脑就像收音机或电视接收器。你不会在电视机里找提供天气预报的那个女人。她并不在那里，她在别的地方。所以我不知道这是否真实，但在经历了研究这一过程之后，我不会完全否定这样的想法。你必须保持开放的心态，因为我们认为意识是大脑复杂性的一种涌现属性，这种观念并没有得到太多支持。
Andrew Huberman：
Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life. I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. My guest today is Michael Pollan, author of landmark books, including How to Change Your Mind, which is about psychedelics, The Botany of Desire, which is about how humans and plants co-evolved and collaborated to thrive, and The Omnivore's Dilemma, which is an incredible book about food and nutrition. And most recently, the book A World Appears, A Journey Into Consciousness. Michael Pollan is considered by many, including me, to be one of the most learned and thoughtful people on topics that matter to all humans and the things that we can do to improve the human experience. Today, we talk about many topics, but mostly we focus on consciousness, and Michael brings forward a new perspective that integrates the best science on this topic, as well as philosophy and beyond. And we get deep into this notion of the ego, meaning our notion of self, and how the ego is both important for and limits our understanding of ourselves and life. I should emphasize that the conversation is not as abstract as I'm making it sound. What I love about Michael Pollan is he makes these topics very clear and very concrete, and in many cases, actionable. Thanks to Michael, by the end of today's conversation, you will be placed at the front edge of the conversation and the data on this thing that we call consciousness. You'll also be versed on the latest of plant, or what is sometimes called psychedelic medicine, and perhaps most importantly, what you can do in your life to gain new perspective on yourself, others, and the planet at large. Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford. It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero-cost-to-consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public. In keeping with that theme, today's episode does include sponsors. And now for my discussion with Michael Pollan. Michael Pollan, welcome. Thank you. Good to be here. Longtime fan of your books, of you. I've had the privilege of speaking on stage next to you, although mostly I was just listening to you because you are this amazing intersection of... Science writer, you've written about food, psychedelics, now consciousness. You'll tell us about your new work on microbiome. I feel like there's also some Wendell Berry woven in there.中文：欢迎来到休伯曼实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。 我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。 今天我的嘉宾是迈克尔·波伦（Michael Pollan），他是几本里程碑式书籍的作者，其中包括关于迷幻药的《如何改变你的想法》、关于人类和植物如何共同进化和合作繁荣的《欲望植物学》，以及一本关于食物和营养的令人难以置信的书《杂食动物的困境》。 最近，出版了《一个世界的出现，意识之旅》一书。 包括我在内的许多人都认为迈克尔·波伦是最有学识、最有思想的人之一，他所研究的话题对全人类都很重要，而且我们可以做些什么来改善人类的体验。 今天，我们谈论很多主题，但主要关注意识，迈克尔提出了一个新的视角，整合了该主题的最佳科学以及哲学及其他领域的知识。 我们深入了解自我的概念，即我们对自我的概念，以及自我如何对于我们对自己和生活的理解既重要又限制我们。 我应该强调的是，这次谈话并不像我所说的那么抽象。 我喜欢迈克尔·波伦的一点是，他使这些主题变得非常清晰、非常具体，而且在很多情况下都是可行的。 感谢迈克尔，在今天的对话结束时，您将处于对话的最前沿，以及有关我们称之为意识的事物的数据。 您还将精通最新的植物，或者有时被称为迷幻药的知识，也许最重要的是，您在生活中可以做些什么来获得对自己、他人和整个地球的新视角。 在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。 然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是将有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息带给公众。 为了与这个主题保持一致，今天的节目确实有赞助商。 现在我与迈克尔·波伦进行讨论。 迈克尔·波伦，欢迎。 谢谢。 很高兴来到这里。 你的书的长期粉丝。 我有幸在你旁边的舞台上讲话，尽管大多数时候我只是在听你说话，因为你是……科学作家的惊人交集，你写过关于食物、迷幻药，现在还有意识。 您将向我们介绍您在微生物组方面的新工作。 我觉得里面还编织了一些温德尔·贝瑞（Wendell Berry）。
Michael Pollan：
Oh, big Wendell Berry fan. Good, I didn't insult you. I didn't check out that. Not at all. We just lost him, too. Oh, is that right? He died like two weeks ago. Oh my goodness. I know. I'm like a huge Wendell Berry fan. Really? Me too.中文：哦，非常喜欢温德尔·贝瑞。很好，我没有冒犯你。我没有去看那个。完全没有。我们也刚刚失去他。哦，是吗？他大约两周前去世了。哦我的天。我知道。我也是一个巨大的温德尔·贝瑞粉丝。真的吗？我也是。
Andrew Huberman：
Oh my goodness. He taught me how to write and he taught me how to think about certain things. But he had a huge influence on me. I was very fond of him. Did you ever meet him?中文：天哪。他教我如何写作，也教我如何思考某些事情。但他对我有很大的影响。我非常喜欢他。你曾经见过他吗？
Michael Pollan：
Oh, yeah. I interviewed him on stage a few times. He interviewed me in Lexington, Kentucky about one of my books. And I went to his house and saw the long-legged house where he writes on the river. He was always trying to convince people like us about the beauty of the tobacco culture. And he kind of bracketed the cigarette piece and the lung cancer piece. But the culture was so beautiful. And it was the one time where the whole community got together and racial lines were crossed. And the barns are gorgeous, the tobacco barns with the slots for drying. So he wanted me to see those when I came there.中文：哦，是的。我在舞台上采访过他几次。他在肯塔基州列克星敦采访过我，谈论我的一本书。我还去过他家，看到那栋长腿房子，他就在河边写作。他总是试图说服像我们这样的人欣赏烟草文化的美。他在一定程度上把香烟的问题和肺癌的问题分开来看。但这种文化实在太美了。那也是唯一一次整个社区聚到一起，并打破了种族界限。烟草棚非常漂亮，烟草棚有用于干燥的缝隙。因此，他希望我来时能看到这些。
Andrew Huberman：
Amazing. Yeah, I was feeling a little anxious about bringing in that reference in case you weren't a fan or you didn't like his work, but clearly he was calling in because... He was. And for those who don't know, Wendell Berry is this just magnificent poet who...中文：太棒了。是的，我本来有点担心引用那个参考资料，因为怕你不喜欢或者不欣赏他的作品，但显然他打电话是因为……他就是打电话。而对于那些不知道的人，温德尔·贝瑞是一个非常出色的诗人，他……
Michael Pollan：
And farmer and essayist. Yeah. And he... You know, actually, when I was writing my first book, Second Nature, I was trying to figure out how to behave in the garden, which is a microcosm of how do we behave in nature, right? In other words, I had pests. I had problems. I had fertility issues. And The American tradition of thinking about nature, which goes back to Thoreau and John Muir and Emerson, is all about celebrating the wilderness and being a spectator in nature. And of course, the gardener can't afford to do that. You have to act or you're not going to have anything to eat. I had a head full of Thoreau and Emerson from college and graduate school. And I was kind of stymied about, like, what do I do about weeds? You know, Thoreau's telling me weeds have just as much right to be in your garden as the bean plant, which is crazy. But it was Wendell who would write these essays, and he convinced me, you know, he said, we have a legitimate quarrel with nature. And that our relationship is, you know, we do have to make changes in nature for us to survive. And that's kind of who we are, is the species who remakes nature in various ways. But it has to be done sort of more like a marriage than a domination. And so he just had a new way of thinking about how to relate to nature that really helped me and clarified my whole view of environmentalism. So, yeah, he's a great hero.中文：还有农民和散文家。 是的。 而他……你知道，实际上，当我写第一本书《第二自然》时，我试图弄清楚如何在花园中表现，这是我们在大自然中如何表现的缩影，对吗？ 换句话说，我有害虫。 我遇到了问题。 我有生育问题。 美国思考自然的传统可以追溯到梭罗、约翰·缪尔和爱默生，就是庆祝荒野并成为自然的旁观者。 当然，园丁不能这么做。 你必须采取行动，否则你就没有东西吃。 我满脑子都是大学和研究生院的梭罗和爱默生。 我有点困惑，比如，我该怎么处理杂草？ 你知道，梭罗告诉我杂草和豆类植物一样有权利出现在你的花园里，这太疯狂了。 但写这些文章的是温德尔，他让我相信，你知道，他说，我们与自然之间存在合理的争吵。 我们的关系是，你知道，我们必须改变自然才能生存。 这就是我们，我们是一个以各种方式重塑自然的物种。 但它必须更像是一场婚姻，而不是一种统治。 因此，他对如何与自然建立联系有了一种新的思考方式，这确实对我有帮助，并澄清了我对环保主义的整体看法。 所以，是的，他是一位伟大的英雄。
Andrew Huberman：
Amazing. Saddened to hear that he passed, but he certainly left behind amazing... I think he was 92. Well, it's a pretty good run. Yeah, he had a very good run. We will put some links to his work for those that aren't familiar, and I encourage anyone listening to just... And even those who are familiar with Wendell to go read some of his poems.中文：令人惊叹。听说他去世让我很难过，但他无疑留下了令人惊叹的东西……我记得他好像 92 岁了。嗯，这是相当不错的一生。是的，他经历了非常精彩的一生。我们会为那些不熟悉他作品的人提供一些链接，我也鼓励任何在听的人……甚至那些熟悉 Wendell 的人，也去读读他的一些诗歌。
Michael Pollan：
They're an incredible journey and...中文：它们是一次难以置信的旅程，而且...
Andrew Huberman：
Pull stop.中文：拉停。
Michael Pollan：
Yeah.中文：是的。
Andrew Huberman：
Yeah.中文：是的。
Michael Pollan：
I'm with you.中文：我支持你。
Andrew Huberman：
Let's talk about consciousness. As a neuroscientist, I was taught to avoid this issue. I hear it was the kiss of death at a certain point, right? Neuroscientists who were already very accomplished and famous in some specific domain, like memory or neuromuscular junctions or whatever, could talk about it.中文：让我们谈谈意识。作为一名神经科学家，我被教导要避免这个问题。我听说在某个时期，这是致命的，对吧？那些在某些特定领域已经非常有成就和知名的神经科学家，比如记忆或神经肌肉接头等等，可以谈论这个问题。
Michael Pollan：
They had permission once they had their prizes and their stature.中文：一旦他们得到了奖品和地位，他们就有了许可。
Andrew Huberman：
But some people have died on the bed of nails that is the consciousness discussion. I almost did. Do you think that we can describe it in a sentence? Can we give it an operational definition?中文：但有些人在意识讨论这张钉床上死去过。我差点就死了。你认为我们能用一句话描述它吗？我们能给它一个操作性的定义吗？
Michael Pollan：
It's such a strange phenomenon, because there is nothing we know with more certainty than the fact that we're conscious. It's the only thing we can be sure of. Everything else we know through consciousness, right? Everything else is an inference. But we have this thing that we know we have. But defining it is difficult. So there are some very simple definitions, like subjective experience. That's pretty good. Your toaster doesn't have subjective experience. And I would argue AIs don't have subjective experience, but we can talk about that later. Another popular, I don't know if it's a definition exactly, is Thomas Nagel, the philosopher in the 1970s, wrote a brilliant essay called What Is It Like to Be a Bat? And his point was, if it is like anything, then you're conscious. So even though we don't know exactly what it's like to be a bat, we can kind of imagine a creature that navigates the world through sonar, through sound waves, instead of light photons. And so, okay, we can imagine that. So yes, bats are conscious by that definition. So is it like something to be a computer is a real question that I think we're gonna have to face. That's kind of what I use as a definition. There's a lot of bells and whistles that human consciousness has above that. We're not just aware, but we're aware that we're aware. We have self-reflection or metacognition. Emotion, you know, add that in. So I think humans have a very elaborated definitio Includes awareness of your environment and a recognition of changes, whether they're good or bad. And that may be universal. And that may be a property of life. You can make a case that plants have sentience, that single-celled creatures have sentience. And it may be something you need to survive in an environment that's constantly changing, that you can't program instinctually everything you need to know, so that this would be very useful. And consciousness is how we do sentience. You know, we've added on all these things, and every creature has its own version of sentience based on their body type, their sensorium, the scale at which they live in time and space. Because it's kind of, to take our version of consciousness and make that the standard for everybody seems kind of crazy. This thing about...中文：这是一个非常奇怪的现象，因为没有什么比我们有意识这个事实更确定的了。 这是我们唯一可以确定的事情。 我们通过意识知道的其他一切，对吗？ 其他一切都是推论。 但我们知道我们拥有这个东西。 但定义它是困难的。 所以有一些非常简单的定义，比如主观经验。 那很好。 你的烤面包机没有主观体验。 我认为人工智能没有主观经验，但我们可以稍后再讨论。 另一个流行的，我不知道这是否是一个准确的定义，是 20 世纪 70 年代的哲学家托马斯·内格尔（Thomas Nagel）写了一篇精彩的文章，名为“成为一只蝙蝠是什么样的？” 他的观点是，如果它像任何东西一样，那么你就是有意识的。 因此，尽管我们不知道蝙蝠到底是什么样的，但我们可以想象一种通过声纳、声波而不是光光子来导航世界的生物。 所以，好吧，我们可以想象。 所以，是的，根据这个定义，蝙蝠是有意识的。 因此，我认为我们必须面对一个真正的问题，那就是计算机是否像某种东西一样。 这就是我所使用的定义。 人类意识除此之外还有很多花里胡哨的东西。 我们不仅意识到，而且我们意识到我们意识到了。 我们有自我反思或元认知。 情感，你知道，加上这一点。所以我认为人类有一个非常详细的定义，包括对环境的认识和对变化的认识，无论它们是好还是坏。 这可能是普遍的。 这可能是生命的财产。 你可以证明植物有感知能力，单细胞生物也有感知能力。 它可能是你在不断变化的环境中生存所需要的东西，你无法本能地编程你需要知道的一切，所以这将非常有用。 意识是我们产生知觉的方式。 你知道，我们已经添加了所有这些东西，每个生物都有自己的感知版本，基于它们的身体类型、感觉器官、它们生活在时间和空间的尺度。 因为采用我们的意识版本并将其作为每个人的标准似乎有点疯狂。 这件事关于...
10:00 - 20:00
Andrew Huberman：
Being able to respond to the environment being some key component of consciousness. A plant can respond to the environment. A barnacle can respond to the environment. A bacteria can. Bacteria can. They can light sense. They actually know the difference between morning and evening.中文：能够对环境作出反应是意识的一个关键组成部分。植物可以对环境作出反应。附着类动物可以对环境作出反应。细菌也可以。细菌可以。它们可以感知光。它们实际上能区分早晨和傍晚。
Michael Pollan：
And they have hemotaxis. They know the difference between something that's good to eat and something that's toxic.中文：它们有趋血性。它们知道什么可以吃，什么有毒。
Andrew Huberman：
Do you think they know they know? This is the piece that I feel like the responding and the awareness that one is responding is maybe where, in my mind, I want to draw the line for some reason. Like a plant will, you know, you know, furl and unfurl in the presence of light. But does it know it's responding and why? I mean, I suppose we all the time respond to things and don't know why. But usually, like if I take a sip of this tea and it's too hot, I have some sense of... What I'm going to do next and why. Whereas I feel like the other stuff is just reflexive.中文：你认为他们知道他们在知道吗？我感觉这里的关键是在于反应以及对自己在反应的意识，这可能是我脑海中想要划定界限的地方，不知道为什么。比如一株植物会在光照下卷曲和展开，你知道的，但它知道自己在反应吗？为什么要反应呢？我的意思是，我想我们一直在对各种事情做出反应，却不知道原因。但通常，如果我喝一口茶而发现太烫，我会有某种意识……知道下一步要做什么以及为什么要这么做。而其他情况，我觉得只是本能反应罢了。
Michael Pollan：
Yeah, it's reflexive, but I don't think it's always programmed. I think that there are novel situations that even a plant confronts where they have to have an intelligent response that isn't necessarily something programmed in their genes. I mean, I took a deep dive into this field of plant intelligence, which is fascinating. I mean, the things we're learning that plants can do that you would not have guessed. I mean, you can take a corn plant. And it can navigate a maze. You can give it a maze and put some fertilizer, some ammonium nitrate in one corner of it, and the roots will find the fastest path to that ammonium nitrate. That's not a situation it really experiences in nature. It has to, that takes a certain kind of intelligence, problem-solving ability. If you play the sound of caterpillars chomping on leaves for a plant, they will react to the sound and send either toxins or bad-tasting chemicals to that leaf to defend themselves. They can respond to the sound of water, and if they hear water running through a pipe, they will go down. They have like 20 senses. We have five or six. They can sense gravity, which we can't do. They can sense pH. They can sense whether nutrient levels are on a positive gradient or negative gradient. I mean, it's remarkable. To me, most curious things about plants is that they respond to the same anesthetics we do. Now, you might think, what does it mean to put a plant out? Aren't they already out? But actually, they're just slow. They have behaviors. They're just very slow. So, you take a plant with a really fast behavior, like a Venus flytrap, and you put it in a bell jar. And you put some anesthetic gas in, xenon gas or any number of, you know, anything you can put in gas form, and they will not respond to an insect crossing their threshold where normally they would clamp down. So that raises a really interesting question. What exactly are they losing? When they are under, we would say consciousness, but that's a long way to go. I mean, I don't use the word consciousness for plants, although I met scientists who do. But I would say that's sentience, that there's a loss of sentience that's happening when they are anesthetized. But as you know, anesthetics are really weird. We don't even know how they work on us, right? I mean, xenon gas is inert gas, and it puts you out. How does that work?中文：是的，这是反射性的，但我不认为它总是被编程的。 我认为，即使是植物也会遇到一些新奇的情况，它们必须做出聪明的反应，而这种反应不一定是在基因中编程的。 我的意思是，我深入研究了植物智能这个领域，这很有趣。 我的意思是，我们正在了解植物可以做的事情是你猜不到的。 我的意思是，你可以拿一棵玉米树。 它可以穿越迷宫。 你可以给它一个迷宫，在它的一个角落放一些肥料、一些硝酸铵，根部就会找到获取硝酸铵的最快路径。 这并不是它在自然界中真正经历的情况。 它必须如此，这需要一定的智力和解决问题的能力。 如果您播放毛毛虫咀嚼植物叶子的声音，它们会对声音做出反应，并向叶子发送毒素或难闻的化学物质以保护自己。 它们可以对水声做出反应，如果它们听到水流过管道的声音，它们就会下去。 他们有大约 20 种感官。 我们有五六个。 他们可以感知重力，而我们却做不到。 它们可以感知 pH 值。 他们可以感知营养水平是正梯度还是负梯度。 我的意思是，这很了不起。 对我来说，植物最奇怪的一点是它们对麻醉剂的反应与我们相同。 现在，您可能会想，把植物放在外面意味着什么？ 他们不是已经出来了吗？ 但实际上，他们只是慢而已。 他们有行为。 他们只是非常慢。 因此，你将一种行为非常快的植物（例如捕蝇草）放入钟形罩中。 你放入一些麻醉气体，氙气或任何数量的，你知道的，任何你可以以气体形式放入的东西，它们不会对越过它们通常会钳制的阈值的昆虫做出反应。 这就提出了一个非常有趣的问题。 他们到底失去了什么？ 当它们处于水下时，我们会说意识，但这还有很长的路要走。 我的意思是，我不使用“意识”这个词来形容植物，尽管我遇到了这样做的科学家。 但我想说，这就是知觉，当他们被麻醉时，就会失去知觉。 但如你所知，麻醉剂确实很奇怪。 我们甚至不知道它们是如何作用于我们的，对吧？ 我的意思是，氙气是惰性气体，它会让你昏迷不醒。 这是如何运作的？
Andrew Huberman：
Does it scare anyone going in for surgery? The anesthesiologists have gotten much better. Yes, they know what they're doing. They know what they're doing. I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, 8sleep. 8sleep makes smart mattress covers with cooling, heating, and sleep tracking capacity. 8sleep just launched the Pod 6, which is their most advanced sleep system. The Pod 6 is half the size of their previous models. It's 20% faster with its cooling and heating, and it has nine times as many sensors for tracking your sleep. The reason why eight sleep is so effective at improving your sleep quality and duration is because it helps control your core body temperature. And the reason for that is that in order to fall and stay deeply asleep, your core body temperature has to drop by about one to three degrees. And to wake up feeling completely refreshed and energized, you actually want your body temperature to be increasing in the final hours of yo Just how much deep and rapid eye movement sleep I got. If you would like to try 8sleep, go to 8sleep.com slash Huberman to get up to $200 off their new Pod 6. 8sleep ships to many countries worldwide, including Mexico and the UAE. Again, that's 8sleep.com slash Huberman to save up to $200. Today's episode is also brought to us by Rora. Rora makes what I believe are the best water filters on the market. It's an unfortunate reality, but tap water often contains contaminants that negatively impact our health. In fact, a 2020 study by the Environmental Working Group estimated that more than 200 million Americans are exposed to PFAS chemicals, also known as forever chemicals, through drinking of tap water. These forever chemicals are linked to serious health issues, such as hormone disruption, gut microbiome disruption, fertility issues, and many other health problems. The Environmental Working Group has also shown that over 122 million Americans drink tap water with high levels of chemicals known to cause cancer. It's for all these reasons that I'm thrilled to have RoRa as a sponsor of this podcast. I've been using the RoRa countertop system for almost a year now. Roro's filtration technology removes harmful substances, including endocrine disruptors and disinfection byproducts, while preserving beneficial minerals like magnesium and calcium. It requires no installation or plumbing, it's built from medical-grade stainless steel, and its sleek design fits beautifully on your countertop. In fact, I consider it a welcome addition to my kitchen. It looks great and the water is delicious. If you'd like to try RORA, you can go to rora.com slash Huberman and get an exclusive discount. Again, that's RORA, R-O-R-R-A dot com slash Huberman. Can we go at self versus other as maybe one potential window into this? I don't want to make any assumptions, but when I think about the consciousness problem, I think most people know that they are them and they know what's not them. And maybe a decent analogy is when nerve cells grow, they know the difference between them and other cells. So at the cellular level, this is already set up. And in fact, I love your example of the root growing towards the fertilizer, because you can give a nerve cell a simple rule, all nerve cells a simple rule, which is essentially grow out as far as you can and connect with as many other nerve cells as you possibly can. And know the difference between you and other. And if you do that- Even within the same species. Yeah. So, you know, and there are some exceptions to this, but it turns out to be, it's not straightforward to build a brain, but you don't need a ton of signals. You need signals that say grow here, and you need signals that say you may not grow here. What we call chemoattractants and chemorepellants. And then if you think about the dendrites and axons, the branches of the neurons, they中文：做手术的人会害怕吗？ 麻醉师的技术已经好多了。 是的，他们知道自己在做什么。 他们知道自己在做什么。 我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商 8sleep。 8sleep 生产具有制冷、加热和睡眠跟踪功能的智能床垫套。 8sleep 刚刚推出了 Pod 6，这是他们最先进的睡眠系统。 Pod 6 的尺寸是之前型号的一半。 它的制冷和制热速度提高了 20%，并且用于跟踪睡眠的传感器数量是原来的九倍。 八次睡眠之所以能够如此有效地改善您的睡眠质量和持续时间，是因为它有助于控制您的核心体温。 原因是，为了入睡并保持深度睡眠，您的核心体温必须下降约一到三度。 为了醒来时感觉完全神清气爽、精力充沛，你实际上希望你的体温在最后几个小时内升高，我得到了多少深度和快速的眼动睡眠。 如果您想尝试 8sleep，请访问 8sleep.com，砍掉 Huberman 的新 Pod 6 折扣，最高可享受 200 美元优惠。8sleep 向全球许多国家发货，包括墨西哥和阿联酋。 8sleep.com 再次大幅削减 Huberman，最多可节省 200 美元。 今天的节目也是由 Rora 为我们带来的。 我认为 Rora 生产的滤水器是市场上最好的。 这是一个不幸的现实，但自来水通常含有对我们的健康产生负面影响的污染物。 事实上，环境工作组 2020 年的一项研究估计，超过 2 亿美国人通过饮用自来水接触到 PFAS 化学物质（也称为永久化学物质）。 这些永久性化学物质与严重的健康问题有关，例如激素紊乱、肠道微生物群破坏、生育问题和许多其他健康问题。 环境工作组还表明，超过 1.22 亿美国人饮用的自来水含有大量已知致癌化学物质。 出于所有这些原因，我很高兴 RoRa 成为这个播客的赞助商。 我使用 RoRa 台面系统已经快一年了。 Roro 的过滤技术可去除有害物质，包括内分泌干扰物和消毒副产物，同时保留镁和钙等有益矿物质。 它不需要安装或管道，由医用级不锈钢制成，其时尚的设计非常适合您的台面。 事实上，我认为它对我的厨房来说是一个受欢迎的补充。 看起来很棒，水也很美味。 如果您想尝试 RORA，可以访问 rora.comlash Huberman 并获得独家折扣。 再说一次，那是 RORA，R-O-R-R-A . com 斜杠 Huberman。 我们能否将自我与他人作为可能的一个潜在窗口？ 我不想做任何假设，但当我思考意识问题时，我认为大多数人都知道他们是他们，他们知道什么不是他们。 也许一个恰当的类比是，当神经细胞生长时，它们知道自己与其他细胞之间的区别。 所以在细胞水平上，这已经建立了。 事实上，我喜欢你的根向肥料生长的例子，因为你可以给神经细胞一个简单的规则，所有神经细胞一个简单的规则，它本质上是尽可能地生长并与尽可能多的其他神经细胞连接。 并且知道你和其他人之间的区别。 如果你这样做——即使是在同一物种内。 是的。 所以，你知道，这也有一些例外，但事实证明，构建大脑并不简单，但你不需要大量信号。 你需要表明你在这里成长的信号，也需要表明你可能无法在这里成长的信号。 我们称之为化学引诱剂和化学排斥剂。 然后如果你想想树突和轴突，神经元的分支，它们
Michael Pollan：
often have these beautiful architectures. Those are set up by a simple rule of self-avoidance. It's really an important rule, and you see it in plant roots too, because if you put two plants that are related to one another, have some genetic connections, but are separate plants, they will share soil and grow together. But if they're not related, even if they're the same species, they will compete. Right. Ditto, you know, the plant that, when plants are shaded by another plant, they grow fast to get above it. But if they're shaded by themselves, closer to your example, they don't. They know. Like, well, we're getting the light over there, so I don't have to go there. But yeah, I think the self and other is a key rule. And I completely agree that you can take a set of very simple rules and build a very complex community. Creature from it. How that gets you to consciousness. I mean, self and other is an important part of consciousness, although, and I talk about the self as kind of the most elaborate or advanced manifestation of consciousness. It turns out you can have consciousness without a self. And that's, you know, I mean, meditators know this. Psychedelics give you and can give you an experience of consciousness without a self. I think we have it every morning when we wake up. There's that 500 milliseconds, you know, when you're reconstituting, like, who am I? Where am I? Oh, you know, here I am. And it's 750 milliseconds if you're in a hotel room, as I realized this morning. Yes. That's kind of weird that you can have, that there is a consciousness that is not organized around a self. And, you know, Buddhists have known this for a long time, but it's a strange idea.中文：经常有这些美丽的建筑。 这些都是由一个简单的自我回避规则设定的。 这确实是一个重要的规则，你也可以在植物的根中看到它，因为如果你把两种彼此相关、有一定遗传联系但又是独立植物的植物放在一起，它们将共享土壤并一起生长。 但如果它们没有血缘关系，即使它们是同一物种，它们也会竞争。 正确的。 同上，你知道，当植物被另一种植物遮蔽时，它们会快速生长以超越它。 但如果它们被自己遮挡，更接近你的例子，它们就不会。 他们知道。 就像，好吧，我们正在那里获取灯光，所以我不必去那里。 但是，是的，我认为自我和他人是一个关键规则。 我完全同意，你可以采用一组非常简单的规则来构建一个非常复杂的社区。 来自它的生物。 这如何让你意识到。 我的意思是，自我和他人是意识的重要组成部分，尽管如此，我将自我视为意识最复杂或最先进的表现形式。 事实证明，你可以拥有没有自我的意识。 那就是，你知道，我的意思是，冥想者知道这一点。 迷幻药给你并且可以给你一种没有自我的意识体验。 我想我们每天早上醒来时都会有它。 你知道，当你重构时，有 500 毫秒，比如，我是谁？ 我在哪里？ 哦，你知道，我在这里。 如果你在酒店房间里，这个时间是 750 毫秒，正如我今天早上意识到的那样。 是的。 这有点奇怪，你可以拥有一种意识，它不是围绕自我组织的。 而且，你知道，佛教徒很早就知道这一点，但这是一个奇怪的想法。
20:00 - 30:00
Andrew Huberman：
Going back to the plants and their intelligence, you know, I've spent a little bit of time with people in the plant medicine community. Not a lot. I'm not, you know, like a heavy psychonaut or anything, but... There does seem to be this understanding there, and I don't think it's just conjecture. I think it's a real understanding of people who spend time in the jungle, who spend time with plant medicines. Even pharmacists in this country will tell you that most drugs were bioprospected from the jungle. Big Pharma are isolated compounds synthesized, you know, as you know, from jungle plants and other plants. So there's this notion that the plants actually can sense And she is convinced, and she's a very rational person, she is convinced that talking to the plants while she plants them has a real effect on the relationship between her and these plants. I mean, she's not thinking that they can hear and understand the language, but that there's some sort of energetic transfer there. Yeah. And I don't think she's alone. People who garden have a relationship to the plants, and I certainly feel this way about my dog. To some extent, my fish, although to a lesser extent. So I don't think it's entirely crazy.中文：回到植物和它们的智慧，你知道，我花了一点时间与植物医学界的人们接触。 不是很多。 你知道，我不像一个沉重的心理飞行员或其他任何人，但是......似乎确实有这种理解，而且我不认为这只是猜想。 我认为这是对那些在丛林中度过时光、花时间研究植物药物的人们的真正理解。 即使是这个国家的药剂师也会告诉你，大多数药物都是从丛林中生物勘探的。 大型制药公司是从丛林植物和其他植物中合成的分离化合物。 所以有这样一种观念，植物实际上可以感知，她相信，她是一个非常理性的人，她相信在种植植物时与植物交谈会对她和这些植物之间的关系产生真正的影响。 我的意思是，她并不认为他们能够听到和理解这种语言，而是认为那里存在某种能量转移。 是的。 我认为她并不孤单。 从事园艺的人与植物有着密切的关系，我对我的狗也有这种感觉。 在某种程度上，我的鱼，尽管程度较小。 所以我不认为这完全是疯狂的。
Michael Pollan：
I don't think it's crazy. I think that I haven't had that experience myself. I did have an experience, and this was talk about plant medicine on psilocybin that I described in my book, of feeling that the plants in my garden were conscious and aware and returning my gaze. And they were very benevolent. I took good care of them. That's good. Otherwise, it could get scary. Yeah. Yeah. And I didn't know what to do with that. I mean, there's a whole question with insights you have on psychedelics, like, do they have any value? And how do you judge their value? And in my case, I thought back to William James, who had written in Varieties of Mystical Experience that you can't really judge the veracity of a big insight on a mystical experience. Because we don't know enough, but there are two ways to think about it. Is it a useful thing? Is it pragmatic to believe that? And that's one argument in favor. And the other is, treat it as a hypothesis and see if you can find other ways of knowing, scientific or otherwise, that could support that idea. And that's what got me into learning about plant intelligence and plant sentience. We are in relationship with plants, domesticated plants in particular. I think they manipulate us in various ways, but it's not at the level of the individual plant. It's at the level of the evolution of the species. So, you know, corn came to dominate the landscape in much of the world because it figured out what we wanted from it. And when I say figured out, I mean purely by trial and error. Cannabis too. Cannabis was, you know, this plant, you know, located in Western China, I guess. And now it's everywhere. And the reason it did is it learned that we respond, if it produced this chemical called THC, It was going to get carried around the world and reproduced. And so I think we're in this symbiotic relationship with plants in that they do manipulate us. They're geniuses at biochemistry, as you suggest, you know. And that's a function of the fact that they can't get up and run away, right? They're rooted. They're sessile, as it's called. And so instead of Consciousness, like we have, and the ability to move around, they develop chemicals, this incredible suite of chemicals. And they hit on some chemicals that happen to change our consciousness. And this has been one of the most successful strategies. Coffee and tea are great examples. They didn't originally make these chemicals for us. They're probably defense chemicals. But what's interesting about the defense chemicals that they produce is that they're not, they don't kill anything. I mean, caffeine might kill insects, some insects. But somewhere along the line, they learned that it was better to just kind of Fuck with your mind, then kill you outright, because if they killed you outright, you would very quickly develop resistance, right? You'd select for resistant members of the species. The way I learned this, it was courtesy of my cat, Frank. Frank had a real catnip problem. And every night, Frank, I would go down to my garden to harvest some lettuce or something like that. And I had a catnip plant, and this is in a fenced garden. And Frank would follow me and look at me, and he needed to be reminded where the catnip was. It's like, you know, why don't you know where it is? Because he would get so wrecked on catnip that he would forget. And I'm like, that's a brilliant strategy on the part of the plant to get your predator to forget where you are. Amazing. And the other thing they do, of course, many plant chemicals, psychoactive chemicals, diminish your appetite. Another brilliant strategy. So I have enormous respect for what they do and what they do to us. And I really see them as active players in this drama. I wrote a book called Botany of Desire, which really looked at how plants have中文：我不认为这很疯狂。 我想我自己还没有这样的经历。 我确实有过一次经历，这是我在书中描述的关于裸盖菇素的植物医学，感觉我花园里的植物有意识和意识，并回应我的目光。 他们非常仁慈。 我很好地照顾了他们。 那挺好的。 否则，它可能会变得可怕。 是的。 是的。 我不知道该怎么办。 我的意思是，有一个关于你对迷幻药的见解的完整问题，比如，它们有任何价值吗？ 您如何判断它们的价值？ 就我而言，我回想起威廉·詹姆斯，他在《神秘体验的多样性》一书中写道，你无法真正判断对神秘体验的重大见解的真实性。 因为我们了解的还不够多，但是有两个方法可以思考。 这是一个有用的东西吗？ 相信这一点是否务实？ 这是支持的一个论点。 另一个是，将其视为一个假设，看看是否可以找到其他可以支持该想法的科学或其他认知方式。 这就是让我开始了解植物智力和植物感知的原因。 我们与植物，特别是驯化植物有关系。 我认为它们以各种方式操纵我们，但这不是在单个植物的层面上。 这是在物种进化的层面上。 所以，你知道，玉米之所以在世界大部分地区占据主导地位，是因为它知道我们想要从中得到什么。 当我说弄清楚时，我的意思纯粹是通过尝试和错误。 大麻也是。 我猜大麻是，你知道，这种植物，你知道，位于中国西部。 现在它无处不在。 它这样做的原因是它知道我们做出反应，如果它产生了这种叫做 THC 的化学物质，它就会被带到世界各地并复制。 所以我认为我们与植物处于这种共生关系，因为它们确实操纵着我们。 正如你所说，他们是生物化学方面的天才。 这是因为他们无法站起来逃跑，对吗？ 他们扎根了。 顾名思义，它们是无柄的。 因此，他们不像我们那样拥有意识和移动能力，而是开发化学物质，这套令人难以置信的化学物质。 他们偶然发现了一些能够改变我们意识的化学物质。 这是最成功的策略之一。 咖啡和茶就是很好的例子。 他们最初并不是为我们生产这些化学品。 它们可能是国防化学品。 但他们生产的防御化学物质的有趣之处在于，它们不会杀死任何东西。 我的意思是，咖啡因可能会杀死昆虫，一些昆虫。 但在这个过程中，他们了解到最好是用你的思想操蛋，然后直接杀了你，因为如果他们直接杀了你，你很快就会产生抵抗，对吧？ 你会选择该物种的抗性成员。 我是通过我的猫弗兰克的帮助才了解到这一点的。 弗兰克有一个真正的猫薄荷问题。 每天晚上，弗兰克，我都会去我的花园收获一些生菜或类似的东西。 我有一株猫薄荷植物，它位于一个有围栏的花园里。 弗兰克会跟着我看着我，他需要被提醒猫薄荷在哪里。 就像，你知道，你为什么不知道它在哪里？ 因为他会因猫薄荷而变得如此糟糕，以至于他会忘记。 我想，这对植物来说是一个绝妙的策略，可以让你的捕食者忘记你在哪里。 惊人的。 当然，它们做的另一件事是，许多植物化学物质、精神活性化学物质会降低你的食欲。 另一个绝妙的策略。 因此，我非常尊重他们所做的事情以及他们对我们所做的事情。 我确实认为他们是这部剧中的活跃参与者。 我写了一本叫做《欲望植物学》的书，这本书真正研究了植物如何
Andrew Huberman：
The sticking with the, you know, the rule of evolution, you just want to make as much of yourself as you possibly can in species that nurture young, nurture young, protect young, proliferate, die, repeat, right? And that's like a harsh way of thinking about it. But that's those essentially the simple rules of evolution. Try not to die.中文：遵循进化规律，你知道的，你只想在能养育幼崽、保护幼崽、繁殖、死亡、重复的物种中尽可能多地复制自己，对吧？这听起来是一种苛刻的思维方式。但这本质上就是进化的简单规则：尽量不要死。
Michael Pollan：
Try to at least live long enough to proliferate and make sure that the young make it to reproductive. And in retrospect, it looks like you figured something out. But in fact, you're just trying things and certain things work. And the plants that had the most caffeine, say, proliferated in a way the ones that had the least caffeine did not.中文：至少要尽量活得足够久以繁衍，并确保年轻的能够存活到繁殖阶段。回过头看，好像你已经发现了某种规律。但实际上，你只是尝试不同的事情，而某些事情恰好有效。那些咖啡因含量最高的植物，比如说，以一种咖啡因含量最低的植物所不具备的方式繁衍开来。
Andrew Huberman：
I mean, I think about dogs a lot because I love them. And I'm told that dogs descended from wolves t中文：我的意思是，我经常想到狗，因为我爱它们。而且有人告诉我，狗是从狼进化而来的
Michael Pollan：
And there are only 50,000 wolves left in this country, and how many dogs are there? It was a good strategy.中文：而这个国家只剩下 5 万只狼了，那么有多少只狗呢？这是一个很好的策略。
Andrew Huberman：
Right. Yeah. And I feel like more people have dogs now than when I was growing up. Well, COVID led to a lot of people getting dogs. Yeah. So most people don't get dogs to do work. They get dogs to be family members. Right.中文：对。是的。我感觉现在比我小时候的时候，养狗的人更多了。嗯，COVID 导致很多人养了狗。是的。所以大多数人养狗并不是为了工作，他们养狗是为了成为家庭成员。对。
Michael Pollan：
And so they're really figuring stuff out. Yeah. They got us. They got us. But this figuring stuff out t中文：所以他们真的在弄清楚东西。是啊。他们抓住我们了。他们抓住我们了。但是这种弄清楚东西
Andrew Huberman：
Humans are unique in this way.中文：人类在这方面是独一无二的。
Michael Pollan：
Oh, I think we are. I mean, I think we have an awareness, a self-awareness, and a sense of, you know, we can time travel. You know, your dog probably can time travel a few minutes or maybe a half hour if it's really hungry, you know? But we have the ability to imagine the future, even a future we're not in. That's one of the things that's special about our consciousness. I mean, you know well that our brains are doing a lot more than we're aware of, right? I mean, 24-7 they're monitoring our body, you know, reading these interoceptive signals and making adjustments and taking in things from the environment without our awareness. So the question is, why does anything have to rise to the level of awareness? Why wasn't it all automated? I think that's one of the mysteries. The best explanation I heard... Of why that should be, and this is sort of an evolutionary just so story, but it's a pretty persuasive one, is because we are fundamentally social beings that live in a very, and being in a human society is incredibly complex environment in which you can't program every move you have to make. There is a great evolutionary utility in being able to read the mind of another person and anticipate what they're going to do or say. Rig He's gone beyond automatic response to something much more deliberate and aware. And I don't think plants have that. But I do think that evolution, I really agree. Michael Levin is a biologist at Tufts who works with, you know, creates little creatures, you know, organoids and what he calls xenobots. And he's shown that there are behaviors that are not dictated by the genes. That what evolution creates is cognitive beings that are very good at solving novel problems. I mean, a lot of his project is actually de-emphasizing genes and showing that, and de-emphasizing neurons too. You know, he also shows that...中文：哦，我想我们是。 我的意思是，我认为我们有一种意识，一种自我意识，以及一种我们可以进行时间旅行的感觉。 你知道，如果你的狗真的很饿的话，可能可以进行几分钟甚至半小时的时间旅行，你知道吗？ 但我们有能力想象未来，即使是我们不在的未来。这是我们意识的特别之处之一。 我的意思是，你很清楚我们的大脑所做的事情比我们意识到的要多得多，对吧？ 我的意思是，他们 7 天 24 小时监控我们的身体，你知道，读取这些内感受信号并进行调整，并在我们没有意识到的情况下从环境中吸收事物。 那么问题来了，为什么任何事情都必须上升到意识的层面呢？ 为什么不是全部自动化？ 我认为这是谜团之一。 我听到的最好的解释是……为什么会这样，这是一个进化的故事，但它是一个相当有说服力的故事，因为我们从根本上来说是生活在一个非常复杂的环境中的社会生物，而人类社会是一个极其复杂的环境，在这个环境中你无法对你必须做出的每一个动作进行编程。 能够读懂他人的想法并预测他们将要做什么或说什么，这在进化上具有巨大的效用。 Rig He 已经超越了自动反应，而是更加深思熟虑和有意识地做出反应。 我不认为植物有这样的能力。 但我确实认为进化论，我真的同意。 迈克尔·莱文（Michael Levin）是塔夫茨大学的一名生物学家，他的研究对象是类器官和他所谓的异种机器人（xenobots）。 他还证明有些行为不是由基因决定的。 进化创造的是非常擅长解决新问题的认知生物。 我的意思是，他的很多项目实际上是不再强调基因并展示这一点，也不再强调神经元。 你知道，他还表明...
30:00 - 40:00
Andrew Huberman：
I accept all of biology. It just so happens I'm only trained to understand the brain stuff.中文：我接受所有生物学。只是碰巧我只受过理解大脑方面的训练。
Michael Pollan：
Well, he's shown that memory resides not necessarily in neurons. There are other ways. The immune system, yeah.中文：嗯，他已经表明记忆不一定存在于神经元中。还有其他方式。免疫系统，对的。
Andrew Huberman：
Yeah, and the immune system is a good example. He looks at bioelectric fields and that these can hold memories in groups of cells and that these xenobots that he creates...中文：是的，免疫系统就是一个很好的例子。他研究生物电场，并且这些生物电场可以在细胞群中保存记忆，而他创造的这些外生机器人……
Michael Pollan：
And he does this with taking skin cells from tadpoles, and he puts it in a solution, and they clump together, and they form a new organism. It only lasts about a week or two. And that organism repurposes their cilia so they can have a means of locomotion. And they can be conditioned and navigate mazes. There's nothing in their genes that's encoding those instructions. Anyway, it's taken them to a very odd place in biology. You know, we used to hear a lot about the word instinct. It's funny, you don't hear about it nearly as much anymore. Yeah, you're right. And I think that there are things going on that are products of just an intelligent, a being with enough tools and cognitive ability to navigate an unfamiliar world. Yeah. That's what it takes to survive in evolution.中文：他是通过取自蝌蚪的皮肤细胞来做到这一点的，然后把它们放入一种溶液中，它们会聚集在一起，形成一个新的有机体。这个有机体只能存在大约一到两周。这个有机体会重新利用它们的纤毛，从而获得一种运动方式。它们可以被训练，并能走迷宫。它们的基因里并没有编码这些指令。无论如何，这将他们带到了生物学中一个非常奇特的领域。你知道，我们以前经常听到本能这个词。有趣的是，你现在几乎不再听到它了。嗯，你说得对。我认为发生的一些事情只是出于一个拥有足够工具和认知能力的智慧生物去应对陌生世界的产物。是的，这就是在进化中生存所需要的。
Andrew Huberman：
When Cesar Millan, the dog whisperer, came on this podcast, he said, because he came from a very poor rural background, but he said, you know, people who grew up in that environment have incredible instincts about what is safe, what's not safe. You know, he saw a lot of death from a young age. safe harbor is in people, and they can really sense people and animals very well in a way that in more affluent societies, we have all these buffers. And it struck me as like, okay, that's super interesting, because I feel like, as a neuroscientist, I think of, okay, there are parts of the brain that are purely autonomic, taking care of heart rate, there's stuff that switches, like if we activate it, people go into a rage, no one likes to think about this. But yes, for them, This would happen. But then there's all the other stuff that's made. I feel like this damn prefrontal cortex expansion that happened in humans. Here's where I get really, I lose a lot of sleep over this. And you're the perfect person to ask this. I've asked a few guests, but I have this big problem lately, which is I think that... I know that humans got a lot more prefrontal cortex real estate, the area that lets us strategy set, understand context, integrate, imagine. Great. But I worry that we have enough of it that we perhaps have tricked ourselves into over-investing in our own importance and actually the whole... Really worked up lately in my own head about the possibility that all this stuff, like trying to go to Mars, trying to navigate the political barbed wire that is the United States and the world right now, wars, all of it. I worry that all of it is just the damn microbiota trying to get us to interact with as many other people as possible. And they aren't sitting there. Chuckling, cackling, thinking about how we are losing out and suffering or feeling great while we do this. But I just worry that perhaps Sonnenberg's theory is right, which is we're literally just vessels. And that keeps me up at night. I confess it does.中文：当狗语者塞萨尔·米兰 (Cesar Millan) 出现在这个播客中时，他说，因为他来自一个非常贫穷的农村背景，但他说，你知道，在那种环境中长大的人对于什么是安全的、什么是不安全的有着令人难以置信的本能。 要知道，他从小就见过很多死亡。 安全港就在人类之中，他们能够很好地感知人和动物，就像在更富裕的社会中，我们拥有所有这些缓冲区一样。 我觉得，好吧，这非常有趣，因为我觉得，作为一名神经科学家，我想，好吧，大脑的某些部分是纯粹自主的，负责心率，有些东西会切换，就像如果我们激活它，人们会变得愤怒，没有人喜欢考虑这个。 但是，是的，对他们来说，这会发生。 但接下来还有其他所有的东西。 我感觉这该死的前额皮质扩张发生在人类身上。 这就是我真正得到的地方，我为此失眠了很多。 你是问这个问题的最佳人选。 我问过几位客人，但我最近遇到了一个大问题，我认为……我知道人类有更多的前额皮质区域，这个区域让我们制定策略、理解背景、整合、想象。 伟大的。 但我担心我们已经拥有了足够多的东西，以至于我们可能欺骗自己过度投资于我们自己的重要性，实际上是整个……最近我自己的脑子里真的在思考所有这些事情的可能性，比如试图去火星，试图穿越美国和世界现在的政治铁丝网，战争，所有这些。 我担心这一切只是该死的微生物群试图让我们与尽可能多的其他人互动。 他们没有坐在那里。 咯咯地笑，咯咯地笑，想想我们在这样做时是如何失败和痛苦的，或者感觉很棒。 但我只是担心索南伯格的理论也许是正确的，那就是我们实际上只是船只。 这让我彻夜难眠。 我承认确实如此。
Michael Pollan：
But it also keeps me up at night because I can only have that thought, that concern, because of this excessive prefrontal cortex real estate. Otherwise, I would just be busy trying to get my food and nourishment proliferated and so on.中文：但这也让我夜不能寐，因为我之所以会有那种想法，那种担忧，是因为前额叶皮层占据了过多的脑区。否则，我只会忙着获取食物和滋养，并让它们繁衍等等。
Andrew Huberman：
So it sort of bookends the two sort of levels of quote-unquote sophistication, like higher-order brain function in humans, building technologies, creativity, symphonies, spaceships, etc. Poetry, and on and on. We think it's so important, and it is. But when we're deluding ourselves, it's all just about getting these microbiota,中文：所以它在某种程度上构成了两种所谓“复杂性”水平的书卷式开端和结尾，比如人类的高阶脑功能、建造技术、创造力、交响乐、宇宙飞船等等。诗歌，诸如此类。我们认为这非常重要，而且确实如此。但当我们自我欺骗时，这一切只是为了获得这些微生物群而已，
Michael Pollan：
getting us to get them where they wanna go. You know, they've been around a lot longer than we have, right? I mean, we evolved in a world dominated by bacteria and other microbes. And so from their perspective, I think it's a perspectival question, but from their perspective, this animal comes along that offers certain advantages, like can... Michael Pollan, a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford, interviews Michael Pollan, author of How to Change Your Mind and The Omnivore's Dilemma, about consciousness, plant intelligence, psychedelics, and the microbiome. In which we are dupes of these bacteria and that, yes, they want us to shake hands. They want us to do all sorts of things because this extends their range. And they want us to be sociable, too. You know, if we were all, you know, kind of shy and introverted, it would not serve their purposes. And they are influencing our moods. So it is kind of creepy in a way, but it's also kind of beautiful that, you know, we don't, you know, that life is using us and that we are a collective being too. I mean, we are a super organism, you know, and we have, you know, more genes, more bacterial genes in our body than we have human genes. And we need those genes. That's the other thing. I mean, the other story about it is, you could also argue that we are... Manipulating them in that we have outsourced, and Justin's done really good work on this, we have outsourced the making of all sorts of metabolites, bacterial metabolites, chemicals we need, glutamate, GABA, serotonin. I mean, they're making, and then all these short-chain fatty acids that are a fuel for our brain, but also are calming our moods, reducing o So instead of learning how to make those chemicals ourselves, we kind of ingeniously figured out that we could host these bacteria and they would make them for us. So we're manipulating them at the same time they're manipulating us. I think it's a two-way street. Okay, that's a fair touche. I hope that helps you sleep. Yeah, well, yes. Maybe if we don't make it to Mars, it will be because... They don't want to go. They get up there and they make people very sick and they die. So in that sense, maybe it's better or worse for everyone. Who knows? I don't have any theories about how this should all go. See, space food is very bad for bacteria, right? It's incredibly sanitary. Talk about ultra-processed food. The kind of stuff they bring on intergalactic travel is going to be really bad for the bacteria.中文：让我们带他们去他们想去的地方。 你知道，他们的存在时间比我们要长得多，对吧？ 我的意思是，我们在一个由细菌和其他微生物主导的世界中进化。 因此，从他们的角度来看，我认为这是一个视角问题，但从他们的角度来看，这种动物的出现提供了某些优势，比如可以……斯坦福大学神经生物学和眼科教授迈克尔·波伦（Michael Pollan）采访了《如何改变你的想法》和《杂食动物的困境》一书的作者迈克尔·波伦，内容涉及意识、植物智力、致幻剂和微生物组。 我们被这些细菌欺骗了，是的，它们希望我们握手。 他们希望我们做各种各样的事情，因为这扩大了他们的范围。 他们也希望我们善于交际。 你知道，如果我们都有点害羞和内向，那不会达到他们的目的。 它们正在影响我们的情绪。 所以这在某种程度上有点令人毛骨悚然，但它也是一种美丽，你知道，我们不知道，你知道，生活正在利用我们，我们也是一个集体存在。 我的意思是，我们是一个超级有机体，你知道，我们体内的基因、细菌基因比人类基因还要多。 我们需要这些基因。 那是另一回事。 我的意思是，关于它的另一个故事是，你也可以说我们……操纵它们，因为我们已经外包了，贾斯汀在这方面做得非常好，我们外包了各种代谢物、细菌代谢物、我们需要的化学物质、谷氨酸、GABA、血清素的制造。 我的意思是，它们正在制造所有这些短链脂肪酸，它们是我们大脑的燃料，同时也能平静我们的情绪，减少 o。所以我们没有学习如何自己制造这些化学物质，而是巧妙地发现我们可以容纳这些细菌，它们会为我们制造它们。 所以我们在操纵他们的同时，他们也在操纵我们。 我认为这是一条双向街道。 好吧，这是一个公平的做法。 我希望这能帮助你入睡。 是的，嗯，是的。 也许如果我们没能到达火星，那将是因为……他们不想去。 他们站在那里，让人们病得很重，然后就死了。 所以从这个意义上说，也许这对每个人来说都是更好或更坏。 谁知道？ 我对这一切应该如何进行没有任何理论。 你看，太空食品对细菌来说非常有害，对吧？ 真是令人难以置信的卫生。 谈论超加工食品。 他们在星际旅行中携带的东西对细菌来说非常有害。
40:00 - 50:00
Andrew Huberman：
Yeah, so if we don't make it, bacteria know that they don't want to make it there. That's right. It's not good for them. They know it's... Yeah. They know Mars is a shitty habitat. Exactly. I'm only half kidding about this one, and I'm going to try and steer off it so that I don't, you know, spiral into the concern about it. Because it's not really a concern. I think that... It gets to another layer, perhaps, of this consciousness question, which is about meaning. You know, part of the function of the prefrontal cortex is that we can assign meaning to things. We both like Wendell Berry. You know him better than I do, but we both have feelings associated, memories. I can go as deep into this as I'll allow myself to. Ok Yeah. Which more than they're dead. But I'm seeding a question about collective consciousness. And so this us-them thing within and across species to me feels like a... A critical gate for getting closer to understanding what is consciousness, at least for me. Maybe I'm中文：是的，所以如果我们不能做到，细菌就会知道它们不想去那里。没错。那对它们不好。它们知道……是的。它们知道火星是个糟糕的栖息地。完全正确。我对这一点半开玩笑，但我会努力绕开它，这样我就不会，你知道，陷入对它的担忧。因为它其实并不是什么真正的担忧。我认为……这可能涉及到另一个层面的问题，就是关于意识的问题，也是关于意义的问题。你知道，前额叶皮质的部分功能是让我们能够给事物赋予意义。我们都喜欢温德尔·巴里。你比我更了解他，但我们都有相关的情感和记忆。我可以深入到这个问题里，只要我允许自己。好的，是的。这比他们死了还要深入。但我正在提出一个有关集体意识的问题。所以在物种内部和跨物种的“我们-他们”的关系，对我来说感觉像是一个……理解意识至少对我来说的关键门槛。也许我
Michael Pollan：
too simplistic about it. I mean, I guess I'd attack it from another direction, which is, you know, you've been talking about the cortex. And yeah, the cortex is very cool. And we have a lot of that real estate. And that's sort of what sets us apart. And for a long time, it was believed that consciousness surely, as this advanced human achievement, because remember, we didn't Thank you. There is another line of research, though, that I was persuaded by, starting with Antonio Damasio in the 90s and going through Mark Soames more recently. He's a South African psychiatrist and neuroscientist. Who's a kind of protege of Damasio's, suggesting that actually consciousness doesn't begin with thought in the cortex, but with feeling in the brainstem or feelings registered in the brainstem. And the reason we have consciousness, according to this theory, is because there are these homeostatic set points. And we'll back up a little. The brain exists to keep the body alive. We forget that. We often think the body, because we love the That register in the upper brainstem, and the cortex only gets involved afterward. So you register this sensation of hunger, and then the cortex helps you visualize a meal or where you might get food or how you might get or how to book a table in a restaurant, whatever it is. That changes things in many ways. If indeed this is true and feelings have to be felt, right? I mean, a feeling implies consciousness. It doesn't solve the hard problem or anything. I think feelings have a different status than thoughts do. I think they're somatic. I think that they're reinforced by just having a body. And if that's true, then first of all, lots more animals are conscious, right? I mean, everybody's got a brainstem. Not everybody, but a whole lot of species have brainstems, whereas cortex is kind of more exclusive club. And I found that a very persuasive way to think about consciousness, and that it starts with feelings in the body. And a lot of what the brain is doing is interpreting those feelings, because they're inchoate. They're just signals, right? William James wrote about this. He said, you know, first there's the spike in heart rate, and then the brain says fear. And so there's this communication going, and the cortex might get involved in that process. But pain, for example, is a conscious phenomenon that doesn't require a cortex. Their evidence for this is people who have no cortex, right? Some children are born without one. They've decorticated animals and they find they still have, even though they can't report emotion, they have evidence of, you know, based on expressions and behaviors that they're having conscious experience. So for me, that changed the whole way of thinking about it. You know, this remains to be proven in various ways, and it doesn't solve this issue of, okay, well, how does a feeling come to be felt, and who's feeling it? Is there a self that's feeling it? And I find Damasio not satisfying on that question. He'll say, well, and in his new book he says this, that feelings are spontaneously conscious. And that's not really a satisfactory answer.中文：太简单化了。 我的意思是，我想我会从另一个方向攻击它，也就是说，你知道，你一直在谈论皮质。 是的，皮质非常酷。 我们有很多这样的房地产。 这就是我们与众不同的地方。 很长一段时间，人们相信意识肯定是人类先进的成就，因为记住，我们没有感谢你。 不过，还有另一条研究路线让我信服，从 20 世纪 90 年代的安东尼奥·达马西奥（Antonio Damasio）开始，到最近的马克·索姆斯（Mark Soames）。 他是南非精神病学家和神经科学家。 他是达马西奥的门生，他认为意识实际上并不是始于皮层中的思想，而是始于脑干中的感觉或记录在脑干中的感觉。 根据这个理论，我们之所以有意识，是因为存在这些稳态设定点。 我们会后退一点。 大脑的存在是为了维持身体的活力。 我们忘记了这一点。 我们经常想到身体，因为我们喜欢上脑干的寄存器，而皮层只有在之后才参与其中。 因此，您记录了这种饥饿感，然后皮层会帮助您想象一顿饭，或者您可以在哪里获得食物，或者您如何获得食物，或者如何在餐厅预订餐桌，无论是什么。 这在很多方面改变了事情。 如果确实如此，感情就必须被感受，对吗？ 我的意思是，感觉意味着意识。 它不能解决困难问题或任何问题。 我认为感受与思想具有不同的地位。 我认为他们是肉体的。 我认为只要有身体就可以增强它们。 如果这是真的，那么首先，更多的动物是有意识的，对吗？ 我的意思是，每个人都有脑干。 不是每个人，但很多物种都有脑干，而皮质是一种更独特的俱乐部。 我发现这是一种非常有说服力的思考意识的方式，它始于身体的感受。 大脑所做的很多事情都是在解释这些感觉，因为它们还处于早期阶段。 它们只是信号，对吗？ 威廉·詹姆斯曾写过此事。 他说，你知道，首先是心率飙升，然后大脑表示恐惧。 因此，这种沟通正在进行，皮层可能会参与该过程。 但例如，疼痛是一种不需要皮质的意识现象。 他们的证据是没有大脑皮层的人，对吗？ 有些孩子一出生就没有孩子。 他们已经给动物剥了皮，他们发现他们仍然有，即使他们无法报告情绪，他们有证据表明，你知道，基于他们有意识体验的表情和行为。 所以对我来说，这改变了整个思考方式。 你知道，这还有待以各种方式得到证明，它并不能解决这样的问题：好吧，一种感觉是如何被感受到的，以及谁在感受它？ 有一个自我在感受它吗？ 我发现达马西奥在这个问题上并不满意。 他会说，嗯，在他的新书中他这样说，感情是自发意识的。 这并不是一个真正令人满意的答案。
Andrew Huberman：
It's hard to wrap my head around that answer. Spontaneous is doing a lot of work there. Yeah. Yeah. No, just credit to him. He's done amazing work. Oh, he has. No, no, I'm not saying you are, but just I think...中文：我很难理解那个答案。自发在这里起了很大的作用。是的。是的。不，只是要给他应得的赞誉。他做得很棒。哦，他确实做得很棒。不，不，我不是说你是，只是我觉得...
Michael Pollan：
He's directed the whole field to the importance of feelings, and that's produced really important work in emotion science and things like that. Yeah, you know, he's a real pioneer.中文：他把整个领域引导到了情感的重要性上，这在情绪科学等方面产生了真正重要的工作。是的，你知道，他是一个真正的先锋。
Andrew Huberman：
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, AG1. AG1 just launched their newest formulation called AG1 Pro, and right now you can get an extra 20% off your first subscription. AG1 takes the clinically backed AG1 formula, which is a blend of vitamins, minerals, probiotics, and adaptogens, and adds three important new ingredients, creatine monohydrate, calcium HMB, and zinc carnosine. It has five grams of creatine monohydrate to support muscle strength and performance along with brain health, calcium HMB to support muscle recovery and reduce muscle breakdown, and zinc carnosine to support and improve the lining of your gut. Some of these ingredients I personally was already taking separate from the AG1 formula, so it's great to see all three of them now in the new AG1 Pro. As you may know, I've been taking AG1 every single day for about 14 years now. That means I discovered it and started taking it daily long before I even knew what a podcast was. I continue to take it and back it here on the podcast because it is an excellent formula, and it's now even better with the AG1 Pro formula. For a limited time, you can get an extra 20% off your first subscription to AG1 Pro by going to drinkag1.com slash huberman and using the code back to routine. So that's with the numeral two, back, numeral two, routine. Just go to drinkag1.com slash huberman. I feel like one of the challenges of being human is that people experience the world differently enough, it seems, right at the level of emotions. Let's just use that as an example. Some people, I've actually seen this in comments on Instagram, so it has to be true, right? No, but somebody once said in a comment that really stuck with me, you know, that they think in feels. And I thought, oh, this sounds like a bunch of woo stuff. But I thought maybe some people really do experience Global statements like, I'm feeling depressed, when in fact they're feeling low. And when they say they're depressed in certain cultures, it really means they are depressed.中文：我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商 AG1。 AG1 刚刚推出了名为 AG1 Pro 的最新配方，现在您首次订阅可享受 20% 的额外折扣。 AG1 采用经过临床支持的 AG1 配方，该配方混合了维生素、矿物质、益生菌和适应原，并添加了三种重要的新成分：一水肌酸、HMB 钙和肌肽锌。 它含有 5 克一水肌酸，可支持肌肉力量和表现以及大脑健康；HMB 钙可支持肌肉恢复并减少肌肉分解；肌肽锌可支持和改善肠道内壁。 其中一些成分我个人已经从 AG1 配方中分离出来，所以很高兴看到这三种成分现在都出现在新的 AG1 Pro 中。 如您所知，我每天服用 AG1 已有大约 14 年了。 这意味着我早在知道播客是什么之前就发现了它并开始每天服用它。 我继续在播客上使用它并返回它，因为它是一个出色的公式，而且现在使用 AG1 Pro 公式甚至更好。 在有限的时间内，您可以在首次订阅 AG1 Pro 时获得额外 20% 的折扣，方法是访问 Drinkag1.com 并使用代码回到常规。 这就是数字二，后面，数字二，例程。 只需访问 Drinkag1.com 斜线 huberman 即可。 我觉得人类面临的挑战之一是，人们对世界的体验似乎在情感层面上有足够的不同。 让我们以此为例。 有些人，我实际上在 Instagram 的评论中看到过这一点，所以这一定是真的，对吧？ 不，但有人曾经在评论中说过，这句话让我印象深刻，你知道，他们是凭感觉思考的。 我想，哦，这听起来像是一堆求爱的东西。 但我想也许有些人确实经历过“我感到沮丧”这样的全球性陈述，而事实上他们情绪低落。 当他们说自己在某些文化中感到沮丧时，这确实意味着他们感到沮丧。
Michael Pollan：
So nuance is very important, but that's coming top down through language. And that's how culture interacts with biology, right? I mean, you know, there are different ways to interpret the same sensations. I think we learned this with, you know, when you have kids, when they melt down, They don't know if they're hungry or tired, and the parent has to teach them, you know, you need to eat. You need to eat and nap. And we see this with kids. They're getting the signals, but they don't have the mental equipment, the cortical equipment to interpret what's going on.中文：所以细微差别非常重要，但这是通过语言自上而下传递的。这就是文化与生物学相互作用的方式，对吗？我的意思是，你知道，同样的感觉有不同的解读方式。我想我们通过带孩子的时候学到了这一点，当孩子崩溃时，他们不知道自己是饿了还是累了，而家长必须教他们，你需要吃东西。你需要吃东西和午睡。我们在孩子身上看到这一点，他们收到了信号，但没有足够的心理设备、大脑皮层的设备来解读发生的事情。
50:00 - 60:00
Andrew Huberman：
And so then the question is, are the signals from the body crude or refined? I'm not denying their importance. They're critically important. But we can't really look to the nerve networks and say, okay, the brain is sophisticated and the neural innervation to and from the body is not sophisticated. I mean, it's as precise as the other. So the problem seems to be that we don't have language for it. So like if I'm feeling wholeheartedly unnerved, Amazing. By the way, I didn't come up with that statement. Eddie Chang, chair of neurosurgery at UCSF. I love it. Who studies speech and language, is my childhood friend. He said, you know, he said it like Eddie, you know, he's very calm, you know, he's a neurosurgeon. He said, you know, all speech is just shaped exhales. And I was like, oh my goodness. Wow. Amazing. When you just think, it's so wild. But then we come up with many shaped exhales. Look what we've done with it. I know, it's incredible. It's incredible. And yet we don't know the language of...中文：那么问题来了，身体发出的信号是粗糙的还是精致的？ 我并不否认它们的重要性。 它们非常重要。 但我们不能真正审视神经网络并说，好吧，大脑是复杂的，而进出身体的神经支配并不复杂。 我的意思是，它和另一个一样精确。 所以问题似乎是我们没有语言来表达它。 就像我感到全心全意地感到不安一样，太棒了。 顺便说一句，这句话不是我想出来的。 Eddie Chang，加州大学旧金山分校神经外科主任。 我喜欢它。 研究言语和语言的人是我儿时的朋友。 他说，你知道，他说得像埃迪，你知道，他非常冷静，你知道，他是一名神经外科医生。 他说，你知道，所有的言语都只是呼气的形状。 我当时想，天哪。 哇。 惊人的。 当你想一想时，它是如此狂野。 但随后我们想出了许多形状的呼气。 看看我们用它做了什么。 我知道，这太不可思议了。 太不可思议了。 但我们不知道...的语言
Michael Pollan：
The body. Movement, yes, but so this is where I feel like the consciousness problem is perhaps a little stuck.中文：身体。运动，是的，但所以这是我觉得意识问题可能有点卡住的地方。
Andrew Huberman：
Yeah, I think you're right. And pain is one example, pleasure is another, but at the extremes, it's easy. But in day-to-day experience, outside of those extremes, it's very hard to like, what's going on right now? I don't know. I mean, my body isn't in pain, but I'm not in rapturies.中文：是的，我觉得你说得对。痛苦是一个例子，快乐是另一个例子，但在极端情况下，这很容易。但在日常经历中，除了那些极端情况，要喜欢现在发生的事情很难。我不知道。我的意思是，我的身体没有疼痛，但我也没有欣喜若狂。
Michael Pollan：
But your vagus nerve, which connects the visceral organs to your brain, is sending this stream of information. I think 80% of the traffic is going from body to brain, not the other way around.中文：但是你的迷走神经，将内脏器官与大脑连接起来，正在发送这股信息流。我认为 80%的信息传输是从身体到大脑，而不是相反方向。
Andrew Huberman：
You're quite the neuroscientist. I teach neuroanatomy. You're right. It's 80.中文：你真是个神经科学家。我教神经解剖学。你说得对。是 80。
Michael Pollan：
It's incredible. The descending projection is about 15, 20. Nobody knows for sure, so you're bang on. Yeah, I'm excellent. And most people, when they talk about the neuroscience, they get some things right. You're bang on. So I just want to be clear to you. Thank you. You're exactly right. On every neuroscience point you've made, you're exactly right. Thank you. That means a lot coming from you. So what do those signals look like? I mean, how raw are they? I mean, and, you know... Stress hormones released, you know, through inflammation, you know, change mood, get to the brain, right? I forget which ones they are. And then suddenly make us feel threatened. The path, I think it's really complicated. You know, I think there's some very precise information reaching the brain, but I also think... It needs a brain to interpret it.中文：这太不可思议了。下行投射大约是 15 到 20。没有人能肯定，所以你说得完全正确。是的，我很好。大多数人在谈论神经科学时会有一些正确的理解，你说的完全正确。我只是想向你澄清一下。谢谢你。你说得完全正确。在你提出的每一个神经科学点上，你都是完全正确的。谢谢你。这对我来说意味着很多。那么这些信号是什么样的呢？我的意思是，它们有多原始？我的意思是，你知道……通过炎症释放的压力激素，会改变情绪，影响大脑，对吧？我忘了具体是什么激素。然后突然让我们感到受到威胁。我认为这个路径真的很复杂。我认为有一些非常精确的信息到达大脑，但我也认为……它需要大脑来解读它。
Andrew Huberman：
Can we talk about the timescale of all this? Because so it's pretty straightforward to think about us, t For you. And so how how your brain is operating right now reflects that. Like when we when I think of brain body communication, I immediately want to default to like the now what's my body feeling now? How does it impact my brain? But maybe the signals I feel like therein lie the answers to being able to parse this experience of life consciousness thing.中文：我们可以谈谈这一切的时间尺度吗？因为所以考虑我们时，这相当简单。对于你也是如此。那么，你的大脑当前的运作反映了这一点。当我想到大脑与身体的沟通时，我立刻想默认于现在：我的身体现在感觉如何？它如何影响我的大脑？但也许我所感受到的信号中，正隐藏着解析这种生命意识体验的答案。
Michael Pollan：
I'm really struck by the fact that we locate our seed of feeling and emotion in our heads, most of us, most of the time. But if you go back in history... They talked as much about the spleen and the liver and the heart and that emotions, they understood something about emotions was coming from the body. My favorite example is an experiment was done on moral judgment and disgust, moral disgust. They had two groups of people. One, they each were given a pill. One got a placebo. One got ginger, powdered ginger. They then exposed people to really morally repellent scenarios in writing about incest and just really disgusting t And that you can manipulate with something as simple as ginger, people's moral judgment. So that says to me this whole system is a lot more integrated than I think we even realize. And that the more I learn about this, the whole idea of separating mind and body, you know, brain and body, is taking us down the wrong way, that these things are inextricably bound up in ways that are just too complex for us to get. I mean, that's an obvious, you know, that's a pretty obvious case because disgust is both a moral and a physical sensation or feeling.中文：令我感到非常震惊的是，我们大多数人在大多数时候都将感觉和情感的种子埋藏在我们的头脑中。 但如果你回顾历史……他们同样谈论了脾脏、肝脏、心脏和情绪，他们明白情绪来自身体。 我最喜欢的例子是一个关于道德判断和厌恶、道德厌恶的实验。 他们有两拨人。 第一，他们每人都得到了一颗药丸。 其中一个人服用了安慰剂。 一种是姜，姜粉。 然后，他们在写乱伦的文章中让人们接触到真正道德上令人厌恶的场景，而且真的很恶心，你可以用像生姜这样简单的东西来操纵人们的道德判断。 所以这对我来说，整个系统的集成程度比我们想象的要高得多。 我对这一点了解得越多，分离思想和身体的整个想法，你知道，大脑和身体，正在让我们走上错误的道路，这些东西以一种我们无法理解的方式密不可分地联系在一起。 我的意思是，这是一个明显的情况，你知道，这是一个非常明显的例子，因为厌恶既是一种道德的感觉，也是一种身体的感觉或感觉。
Andrew Huberman：
But I bet it applies to other things as well. It's a disgusting, but pun intended, but elegant example of how this can work. Well, it's kind of brilliant as, you know, someone thinking up an experiment. I was like, oh, what a good idea. Yeah, good experiment. I like experiments that bridge this kind of higher order. Yeah. Like moral disgust, you know, is a cortical thing, we assume, although it clearly involves... Maybe that takes us a little bit to psychedelics and collective consciousness. You know, one of the things that I'm excited by is that I'm old enough now to have heard about the counterculture of the 60s, grown up in its wake, experienced this health, wellness, public education thing t Years ago, we're about like one love, right? And that didn't work in terms of convincing people to live in peace with all other humans and animals, clearly, sadly. So that doesn't mean collective consciousness isn't worth thinking about. But just like we say, you know, breathwork is too broad a term. And I don't like anything that lumps so much that you lose critical... Critical information. So if I say collective consciousness, I want to be clear, I'm not talking about one love, although that's a great goal. Peace on Earth would be nice. I don't know that I'm going to see it in my lifetime. I'm getting frustrated. Probably not, but I'll hold out hope. We're going the wrong way. It's tough. It's tough, I have to say. Too many repeating themes of the sort that I wouldn't like to see are visible. So how do you define collective consciousness? Well, I've heard the term, right? And when I think about it, I've not been a Burning Man, but I think about people who are trying to set aside me-ism. Ye中文：但我敢打赌它也适用于其他事情。 这是一个令人厌恶的、双关语但又优雅的例子，展示了它是如何运作的。 嗯，这真是太棒了，你知道，有人想出了一个实验。 我当时想，哦，多好的主意啊。 是的，很好的实验。 我喜欢连接这种更高层次的实验。 是的。 我们认为，就像道德厌恶一样，它是一种皮质的东西，尽管它显然涉及……也许这让我们有点了解迷幻剂和集体意识。 你知道，令我兴奋的一件事是，我现在已经足够大了，已经听说过 60 年代的反主流文化，在它的影响下长大，经历过这种健康、保健、公共教育的事情。几年前，我们就像一对爱情，对吧？ 显然，可悲的是，这并不能说服人们与所有其他人类和动物和平相处。 因此，这并不意味着集体意识不值得思考。 但就像我们说的，你知道，呼吸这个术语太宽泛了。 我不喜欢任何东西太笨重以至于你会丢失关键的……关键信息。 因此，如果我说集体意识，我想澄清，我不是在谈论一种爱，尽管这是一个伟大的目标。 地球和平就好了。 我不知道我有生之年能看到它。 我越来越沮丧了。 可能不会，但我会抱有希望。 我们走错路了。 它太硬。 我不得不说，这很难。 可见太多我不希望看到的重复主题。 那么如何定义集体意识呢？ 嗯，我听说过这个词，对吧？ 当我想到这一点时，我并不是火人节的成员，但我想到了那些试图抛开自我主义的人。 叶
60:00 - 70:00
Michael Pollan：
Yeah. So that's been the dream of psychedelics for a long time, that they would diminish the ego and contribute to sort of pro-social feeling, a sense of connection. We're more alike than we're different. You know, it doesn't always work. We have cases of ego dissolution, and we have cases of ego inflation. With psychedelics? With psychedelics. Some people-中文：是啊。这就是迷幻药一直以来的梦想——它们可以减少自我意识，并促成一种亲社会的感觉，一种联系感。我们比自己想象的更相似而非不同。你知道的，它并不总是有效。我们有自我解体的案例，也有自我膨胀的案例。是用迷幻药吗？是用迷幻药的。有些人——
Andrew Huberman：
Could you talk more about that?中文：你能多谈谈那件事吗？
Michael Pollan：
Yeah. A very common phenomenon on high-dose psychedelics is losing a sense of self. I mentioned earlier that you can be conscious without a sense of self. And I've had that experience. I describe it in two of my books of high-dose psilocybin. I suddenly saw myself. Explode into this cloud of blue post-it notes, then fluttered to the ground and coalesced in this pool of blue paint. Beautiful. It was. And it was like, that sounds scary, but in fact, it was like, yes, I'm blue paint. That's what I am. And I was observing this, though, from this new perspective that wasn't me. It was completely objective, total equanimity. And when that happens and the ego is laid aside, there's no walls. The ego is a defensive structure. The self is a defense, right? It's, as we were talking about, us and them, or me and them. You merge with something larger because there's nothing to stand in the way. And some people merge with the divinity or the universe or love or other people. In my case, it was a piece of music that the guide was playing. The legacy of that experience is I am less, I feel I have more perspective on my ego. I know when he's up to his old tricks, you know, when he's being too critical or aggressive or too self-interested. And I say, oh, that's my ego. And that's just one voice. And there are other voices I can listen to. So I think there's a value in having an experience of ego dissolution. Now, I hasten to say there are other ways to get there. Meditators get there too. It's more work, but you can get there through meditation and transcend your sense of ego. Experiences of awe, which you can get from many different ways, diminish your sense of ego in a way that I think is very pro-social. Dacher Keltner, who's a colleague of mine at Berkeley, did this really, he studies awe. He wrote a wonderful book on awe. He did this cool experiment where he asked people to draw a picture of themselves, just a stick figure on a piece of graph paper, and then he gave them an experience of awe. He took them river rafting or something like that, and then he had them do it again, and they would draw a picture of themselves at like a third of the size. Confidence and self-assurance and we worship self. But we also find that some of our happiest experiences are when we escape self, right? I mean, it happens in sex, it happens experiences of awe, religious experience, it happens to people in church and synagogue all the time. So where are we on this? And that's why I don't think it's so simple to say that there's a collective consciousness. I think we toggle back and forth of getting trapped in self. And of course, self is really important. Having a sense of self, you wouldn't spend six years writing a book if you didn't know you were going to be the same person at the end of the six years, and it would benefit you to have finished it. So we need that sense of self to get things done, but it's also a trap. And it distances us from people and makes us selfish. And so I just don't think it's simple. There's another idea of collective consciousness, of course, that consciousness is a field, exists outside us, and we all take part in it. I came out of this experience of studying consciousness and looking at all the theories of consciousness. And I was like, oh, my God. I don't want to give it away, but we have no fucking idea about consciousness, really, how brain matter generates consciousness, if indeed that's how it happens. And there are people who doubt that's how it happens. It could be that the brain channels consciousness, right? I mean, that if you conceive of consciousness as like electromagnetic waves, brains are like radio receivers or TV receivers. You wouldn't look in the TV set for the woman who gave you the weather report. She's not there. She's somewhere else. So I don't know that that's true, but coming out of this experience of studying this, I don't dismiss an idea like that. I don't dismiss panpsychism too, the idea that the particles in this table have some itsy-witsy little bit of consciousness that somehow gets combined in conscious beings like us. You have to keep an open mind because our presumption that consciousness is an emergent property of brain complexity, that idea doesn't have much traction. So anyway, so maybe there is a field of consciousness that we tune into. How do we prove it? I mean, we were talking earlier about Christoph Koch, who's a scientist we both greatly admire, and he was a real physicalist, a materialist scientist who believed that it was all about the brains. And he was head of Allen Brain Institute for many years. He had an experience on ayahuasca that he shared publicly, I'm not speaking out of school, where he was absolutely convinced and remains convinced that consciousness exists outside of brains. That's extraordinary for somebody of his experience to have come to that conclusion, and it's unshakable. I haven't had that experience. I'm not convinced of that, the way he is, but I respect people who hold that idea now much more than I once did.中文：
Andrew Huberman：
I'm going to summarize something you said to make sure I got it right, which is that you had a psychedelic experience. Many people who take psychedelics, not all, but many have an ego dissolution experience. It's very tangible and rich inside of the psychedelic journey. There's an export to after the journey, but it doesn't fundamentally change your relationship to self at every moment in your waking life. I think that's important for people to hear because I think a lot of people think about people who take a lot of psychedelics and sort of fundamentally change. They can't go back to their prior self. So it allows, it's a portal that you can go back into consciously. It's an awareness.中文：我将总结一下你说的话，以确保我理解正确，就是你有过一次迷幻经历。很多服用迷幻药的人，并不是所有人，但很多人都会经历自我解体的体验。在迷幻旅程中，这是非常具体而丰富的。旅程结束后会有一定的延伸影响，但它并不会从根本上改变你在清醒时每时每刻的自我关系。我认为这是人们需要听到的重要信息，因为我觉得很多人会认为经常服用迷幻药的人会从根本上改变，他们无法回到以前的自己。所以它提供了一个通道，你可以有意识地重新进入，它是一种觉知。
Michael Pollan：
Do I have that right? Yeah, it's exactly right. I just have a slightly different understanding of my ego. It's not like it's gone away. Mm-hmm.中文：我说得对吗？是的，完全正确。我只是对自我的理解稍微不同一点。并不是它消失了。嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman：
It's there when I need it. And then the other piece about consciousness inside versus outside, I think maybe it will be helpful for people. Certainly it is for me to think about brains and inside, outside stuff this way. Pit vipers can sense heat emissions. We can't. Honey bees can see UV light. We can't. We experience all of life through a pretty narrow set of filters. I think when people hear the electromagnetic energies in the world, it sounds woo to some, but it's anything but. It's simply, just for clarity's sake, certain wavelengths of light, certain sound waves that we can detect, mechanical touch, chemical sensing, combined to our experience. We're abstracting. So if in one model, consciousness is an abstraction that's created within our brains, we combine electromagnetic energies, whatever other faculties our neurons can contribute to those, meaning, understanding, combining with whatever, gut, whatever, and we create this consciousness experience. But you're saying there's another model. Where there's an energy outside of us that somehow we're detecting that is already a consciousness. And so we're not abstracting it in our minds. It's literally entering through presumably our senses. Maybe there's an additional sense we're not even aware of. Yeah. We're experiencing it, but it's literally out there. I don't experience you as a bunch of photons. I experience you as a human. Right. So I'm either putting it together inside or it's put together outside and gets recapitulated internally.中文：当我需要的时候它就在那里。 然后是关于内部意识与外部意识的另一篇文章，我认为也许这会对人们有所帮助。 当然，我应该以这种方式思考大脑和内部、外部的东西。 响尾蛇可以感知热量的排放。 我们不能。 蜜蜂可以看到紫外线。 我们不能。 我们通过一组相当狭窄的过滤器来体验所有的生活。 我认为当人们听到世界上的电磁能量时，对某些人来说听起来很吸引人，但事实并非如此。 简而言之，为了清楚起见，我们可以检测到某些波长的光、某些声波、机械触摸、化学传感，这些都与我们的经验相结合。 我们正在抽象。 因此，如果在一个模型中，意识是在我们的大脑中创建的一种抽象概念，那么我们将电磁能与我们的神经元可以贡献的任何其他能力结合起来，意义、理解、与任何东西、肠道等相结合，然后我们创造了这种意识体验。 但你说还有另一种模型。 我们体外有一种能量，我们以某种方式检测到它已经是一种意识。 所以我们并没有在头脑中抽象它。 它实际上是通过我们的感官进入的。 也许还有一种我们甚至没有意识到的额外感觉。 是的。 我们正在经历它，但它确实存在。 我并没有将你视为一堆光子。 我把你当作一个人来体验。 正确的。 所以我要么把它放在里面，要么放在外面，然后在内部重述。
70:00 - 80:00
Michael Pollan：
Yeah. These are called filter theories of consciousness. And the implication of them, Henri Bergson, the French philosopher, was an exponent of this. And Aldous Huxley, And that there is a filter or what Huxley called a reducing valve. And it basically admits what he called the measly trickle of consciousness we need to survive.中文：是的。这些被称为意识的过滤理论。它们的含义是，法国哲学家亨利·柏格森是这一理论的拥护者。阿道司·赫胥黎也是如此。意识存在一个过滤器，或者赫胥黎所说的减压阀。它基本上只允许进入他所称的为我们生存所需的微不足道的意识流。
Andrew Huberman：
That's brilliant. Because if we took in all the- We would be overwhelmed. All the wavelengths of light, for instance. Exactly. I wouldn't be able to see, I'd be overwhelmed with whatever that would look like or feel like. I can't use that.中文：太棒了。因为如果我们接收所有的——我们会不堪重负。例如，所有的光波。没错。我将无法看见，我会被那看起来或感觉起来的东西压倒。我不能用那个。
Michael Pollan：
No, our senses are limiting. They're not as expansive as they might be. And your example, the bees are right. There's all these spectrums of light we can't see. It's also worth remembering that it was only like, what, 120 or 150 years ago that we learned there was an electromagnetic field that, you know, that you could actually use to convey information and it's invisible. I mean, that's pretty heady stuff right there.中文：不，我们的感官是有限的。它们没有我们可能拥有的那么广阔。你的例子，蜜蜂，是对的。还有很多光的光谱我们看不到。同样值得记住的是，大概也就是 120 或 150 年前，我们才知道存在电磁场，而且你知道，你实际上可以用它来传递信息，而且它是看不见的。我的意思是，这本身就是相当震撼的事情了。
Andrew Huberman：
So their thinking is, well, there might be another field. And didn't we just learn about this other body system? There's lymph and blood and there's a third one. What is it called? There's like the syncytium thing. It's like a thin sheet that runs through the body that acupuncturists seem to have known about for a very long time. Acupuncture is getting tremendous validation from the rigorous science now.中文：所以他们的想法是，嗯，可能还有另一个领域。我们不是刚学过另一个身体系统吗？有淋巴和血液，还有第三个。它叫什么？有点像合胞体的东西。它就像一张贯穿全身的薄膜，针灸师似乎早就知道了。针灸现在正从严格的科学中获得巨大的认可。
Michael Pollan：
Yeah, the acupuncturists are all like, yeah, we were telling you about this.中文：是啊，针灸师们都在说，是的，我们之前就跟你说过这个。
Andrew Huberman：
Yeah, certain sites can increase or decrease inflammation. Chufumar's lab at Harvard Med is doing beautiful work on this.中文：是的，某些部位可以增加或减少炎症。哈佛医学院的 Chufumar 实验室在这方面做得非常出色。
Michael Pollan：
It's fascinating. So we shouldn't limit ourselves. I mean, the idea we've discovered all there is to discover in terms of fields and consciousness, it may look very different. So I was talking to Alison Gopnik, who's another colleague in psychology at Berkeley, and she was saying, well, you know, The hard problem, we may decide that consciousness is not one thing, and maybe that's our mistake. And we did that with the Elan Vital, the one thing that was going to explain life, and phlogiston, I forget what that was going to explain, but energy or fire or something like that. So we tend, when we have a mystery, we tend to make it singular, right? And sometimes the answer is breaking it up into parts. And so maybe there's ego, self, and that's something, and then maybe there's emotion, and maybe self-reflection is something else entirely. I mean, I've thought about this with regard to AI, As we get these AIs, these chatbots that seem more and more to have a sense of self, say, you know, we call them agents because they act on their own interest. And so maybe it's possible to have an ego without being conscious because I don't think they're conscious. I don't know.中文：这很有趣。 所以我们不应该限制自己。 我的意思是，我们已经在领域和意识方面发现了所有需要发现的想法，它可能看起来非常不同。 所以我和艾莉森·戈普尼克（Alison Gopnik）交谈，她是伯克利大学的另一位心理学同事，她说，好吧，你知道，这个难题是，我们可能会认为意识不是一回事，也许这是我们的错误。 我们用 Elan Vital 做到了这一点，这是一种能够解释生命的东西，还有燃素，我忘了它能解释什么，但是能量或火或类似的东西。 因此，当我们有一个谜团时，我们倾向于将其变得单一，对吧？ 有时答案是将其分成几部分。 所以也许有自我，自我，这就是某种东西，然后也许有情感，也许自我反思完全是另一回事。 我的意思是，我已经考虑过关于人工智能的问题，当我们得到这些人工智能时，这些聊天机器人似乎越来越有自我意识，比如说，你知道，我们称它们为代理，因为它们按照自己的利益行事。 所以也许有可能在没有意识的情况下拥有自我，因为我不认为它们是有意识的。 我不知道。
Andrew Huberman：
We may be taking apart this idea at some point, and maybe that'll help us to understand it. I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, Function. Function provides over 160 advanced lab tests to give you a clear snapshot of your bodily health. This snapshot gives you insights into your heart health, your hormone health, autoimmune function, nutrient levels, and much more. They've also recently added access to advanced MRI and CT scans. Function not only provides testing of over 160 biomarkers key to your physical and mental health, it also analyzes these results and provides recommendations for improving your health from top doctors. For example, in a recent test with Function, I learned that some of my blood lipids were slightly out of range. As a result, I decided to start supplementing with natokinase, which can naturally help reduce LDL cholesterol. And it did. In a follow-up test, I could confirm that this strategy worked. My blood lipids are now back exactly where I want them. Comprehensive lab testing of the sort that Function offers is just so important for health. I mean, how else are you going to know what's going on under the hood? And while I've been doing blood work for years, it used to be time-consuming, complicated, and expensive. In fact, I used to spend thousands of dollars per year trying to get this kind of data, and the data, frankly, were not all that good. But now with Function, it's extremely easy and affordable. A function membership is only a dollar a day, $365 a year. And if you think about the information it provides and the health challenges it helps you avoid and the proactive things that it can do for you to enhance your health, I truly look at it as a savings. To learn more, visit functionhealth.com slash Huberman and use the code Huberman for a $50 credit towards your membership. Again, that's functionhealth.com slash Huberman. It's a super intriguing idea. I sometimes wonder if AI will tell us what consciousness is in a way that we aren't able to solve. And some people might say, well, that's just very, you know, pro-AI. But, I mean, humans have been putting their heads together around these sets of problems for a long while.中文：我们可能会在某个时候分解这个想法，也许这会帮助我们理解它。 我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商 Function。 功能提供超过 160 项高级实验室测试，让您清晰了解自己的身体健康状况。 通过此快照，您可以深入了解心脏健康状况、激素健康状况、自身免疫功能、营养水平等。 他们最近还增加了先进的 MRI 和 CT 扫描的访问权限。 Function 不仅提供对您身心健康至关重要的 160 多种生物标记物的测试，还分析这些结果并提供顶级医生改善您健康的建议。 例如，在最近的一次 Function 测试中，我发现我的一些血脂稍微超出了范围。 因此，我决定开始补充纳豆激酶，它自然可以帮助降低低密度脂蛋白胆固醇。 确实如此。 在后续测试中，我可以确认这个策略是有效的。 我的血脂现在完全回到了我想要的水平。 Function 提供的全面实验室测试对于健康非常重要。 我的意思是，你还怎么知道幕后发生了什么？ 虽然我从事血液检查已有多年，但它过去非常耗时、复杂且昂贵。 事实上，我曾经每年花费数千美元试图获得此类数据，但坦率地说，这些数据并不那么好。 但现在有了 Function，它变得非常简单且经济实惠。 功能会员资格每天仅需 1 美元，每年 365 美元。 如果您考虑一下它提供的信息、它可以帮助您避免的健康挑战以及它可以为您增强健康所做的积极主动的事情，我确实将其视为一种节省。 要了解更多信息，请访问 functionhealth.comlash Huberman 并使用代码 Huberman 获得 50 美元的会员积分。 再说一次，这是 functionhealth.com 斜线 Huberman。 这是一个超级有趣的想法。 我有时想知道人工智能是否会以我们无法解决的方式告诉我们意识是什么。 有些人可能会说，嗯，这非常支持人工智能。 但是，我的意思是，人类长期以来一直在集思广益地解决这些问题。
Michael Pollan：
I do think we're at a new vista now. Oh, we're stuck. We're absolutely stuck. And the effort to make a conscious AI, which is underway. I mean, there are individuals in some companies who are trying to make it conscious, not just intelligent. And those are not the same things. If they fail or succeed, they're going to teach us important things about consciousness. For example, if it truly is about feelings, and that's where consciousness originates, feelings depend on having a body, a vulnerable body, and possibly on our mortality. Are computers going to have feelings? I don't think so. And I think a computer simulation of a feeling is very different than a simulation of a thought, which is as good as a real thought. You know, you can play chess or go or whatever. So if they succeed in making... A conscious AI, it'll discount the feeling idea. I don't think they can. As long as we're dealing with silicon computers, the idea that you could have a conscious computer is based on a faulty metaphor of the brain as a computer. And I mean, you know enough neuroscience to see the... Yes, it does some computations, but take the distinction between hardware and software. That doesn't really exist in brains. Well, that's a key thing about computers. And neurons are not just on or off. They're not simply transistors. They're affected by chemicals and oscillations. There's a wonderful quote from Norbert Wiener who said that the price of metaphor is eternal vigilance. And I think this metaphor of the brain as computers is, we're not being vigilant about that metaphor at all. I don't think, I think it falls apart if you push on it. I also think computers are clearly not brains, even in the most modern iterations of AI, for the simple reason, at least one simple reason, which is our brains create memories in one or two structures, but then they export them to a bunch of other areas. And computers have a memory center. Distributed memory is...中文：我确实认为我们现在正处于新的前景之中。 哦，我们被困住了。 我们完全被困住了。 打造有意识的人工智能的努力正在进行中。 我的意思是，一些公司里有人试图让它变得有意识，而不仅仅是智能。 这些不是同一件事。 无论他们失败还是成功，他们都会教给我们关于意识的重要知识。 例如，如果它确实与情感有关，而这就是意识的起源，那么情感取决于拥有一个身体，一个脆弱的身体，也可能取决于我们的死亡。 计算机会有感情吗？ 我不这么认为。 我认为计算机对感觉的模拟与对思想的模拟有很大不同，后者与真实的思想一样好。 你知道，你可以下棋或围棋或其他什么。 因此，如果他们成功地制造出……一个有意识的人工智能，它就会削弱感觉的想法。 我认为他们不能。 只要我们处理的是硅计算机，你可以拥有一台有意识的计算机的想法就基于将大脑作为计算机的错误隐喻。 我的意思是，你知道足够的神经科学来看到......是的，它做了一些计算，但要区分硬件和软件。 这在大脑中并不存在。 嗯，这是计算机的一个关键问题。 神经元不仅仅是打开或关闭的。 它们不仅仅是晶体管。 它们受到化学物质和振动的影响。 诺伯特·维纳（Norbert Wiener）有一句精彩的话，他说隐喻的代价是永远的警惕。 我认为大脑就像计算机的比喻，我们根本没有对这个比喻保持警惕。 我不认为，我认为如果你继续推动它，它就会崩溃。 我还认为，即使在最现代的人工智能迭代中，计算机显然也不是大脑，原因很简单，至少有一个简单的原因，那就是我们的大脑在一两个结构中创建记忆，然后将它们导出到一堆其他区域。 计算机有一个记忆中心。 分布式内存是...
Andrew Huberman：
You know, it doesn't exist in most computers now.中文：你知道，现在大多数电脑上都不存在它。
Michael Pollan：
But also that memory makes a physical change in the brain, right? I mean, your brain is different than mine because it was pruned very differently because of life experiences. So if you had a computer where the hardware was being constantly changed, it would be useless.中文：但那记忆也会在大脑中产生物理上的变化，对吧？我是说，你的大脑和我的不同，因为它由于生活经历而被修剪得非常不同。所以如果你有一台硬件不断被改变的电脑，那它将毫无用处。
Andrew Huberman：
Yeah, there are these issues in neuroscience that never really get resolved. One of the things that is perplexing to me, maybe you have some insight on this, is there were two labs, Susumu Tonogawa's lab at MIT, he's got a Nobel, and Mark Mayford's lab at Scripps, both essentially ran the same experiment w So this throws a serious wrench into our understanding of the brain. The notion that you need things firing in a particular sequence was completely crapped on by those experiments. I mentioned the Nobel, even though Susumu got it for immunology. He's a very smart guy. Mark's a very smart guy. Papers have stood the test of time, but it would be like if I said, oh, you know, this is the keys that you play in a song, and it sounds like the song, or then I bang all of them, and you still get the song. So our whole notion of the temporal ordering of firing of neurons being important for memories is like, it's complete horseshit. It also turns out that every one of those neurons is participating in a bunch of other memories. And so some of them are, that's great, because that's great allocation of resources.中文：是的，神经科学中的这些问题从未真正得到解决。 让我感到困惑的一件事，也许你对此有一些见解，是有两个实验室，麻省理工学院的进川实验室，他获得了诺贝尔奖，以及斯克里普斯的马克梅福德实验室，两者本质上都进行了相同的实验，所以这严重影响了我们对大脑的理解。 那些实验完全否定了你需要以特定顺序触发事物的想法。 我提到了诺贝尔奖，尽管苏苏穆因免疫学而获得诺贝尔奖。 他是一个非常聪明的人。 马克是一个非常聪明的人。 论文经受住了时间的考验，但就像我说，哦，你知道，这是你在一首歌中弹奏的琴键，它听起来就像这首歌，或者然后我把它们全部敲响，你仍然得到这首歌。 因此，我们关于神经元放电的时间顺序对记忆很重要的整个概念就像是，这完全是一派胡言。 事实证明，每个神经元都参与了一堆其他记忆。 其中一些是，这很好，因为这是很好的资源分配。
Michael Pollan：
And redundancy. I don't know a lot about this, but it sounds to me like a quantum effect, that it's happening simultaneously.中文：以及冗余。我对此了解不多，但在我看来这听起来像是一种量子效应，它是同时发生的。
Andrew Huberman：
Tell me more about that. This is not my area of expertise, so anything you say will be new to me.中文：告诉我更多关于那方面的事情。这不是我的专长，所以你说的任何事情对我来说都是新的。
Michael Pollan：
Me neither, okay? This is total amateur. I heard a talk by Michio Kaku the other day, and he was talking about quantum computers, and that they will... Not work in a linear way, one way after another after another. When they're solving a problem, they'll do it all at once. Simultaneity will be a hallmark of that. There's a whole school of thought that quantum physics may help explain consciousness. I honestly don't understand it. Quantum mechanics have given us some very bizarre explanations of things, such as entanglement. You know, the two particles separated by light years can nevertheless affect one another. And so non-locality and realism, they're gone. And in biology, we just go along as if they're still here, because we can't deal with it. Quantum effects have been discounted in brains because they seem to, we think they only work at these tiny scales, but in fact, they work at all scales. We also have questions about whether they work with a warm, wet, in a warm, wet environment, like a brain. You know, quantum computers have to be chilled to like nearly absolute zero. But I think that that is the next, in the next 50 years, I think we'll be trying to figure out if what we know about quantum reality... May have something to do with creating consciousness. It's as far as I can go. You know everything I know about it now.中文：我也一样，好吗？ 这完全是业余的。 前几天我听到了 Michio Kaku 的演讲，他在谈论量子计算机，并且它们将......不以线性方式工作，一种接一种的方式。 当他们解决一个问题时，他们会一次性解决所有问题。 同时性将成为其标志。 有一个完整的学派认为量子物理学可能有助于解释意识。 老实说我不明白。 量子力学给了我们一些非常奇怪的解释，比如纠缠。 要知道，相隔光年的两个粒子却可以相互影响。 因此，非局域性和现实主义都消失了。 在生物学中，我们只是随波逐流，就好像它们还在这里一样，因为我们无法应对它。 量子效应在大脑中被低估了，因为它们似乎，我们认为它们只在这些微小的尺度上起作用，但事实上，它们在所有尺度上都起作用。 我们还想知道它们是否像大脑一样在温暖、潮湿的环境中工作。 你知道，量子计算机必须冷却到接近绝对零。 但我认为，在接下来的 50 年里，我们将试图弄清楚我们对量子现实的了解是否……可能与创造意识有关。 这是我能走的最远的地方了。 你现在知道我所知道的一切了。
80:00 - 90:00
Andrew Huberman：
Amazing. I mean, I think the brain is a receiver. I've heard that before today. It really makes sense to me now that, based on how you described it. Can I ask about you? And can I get some advice from you? And can our listeners perhaps get some advice from you? You've written 10 books, and I'm sensing a thread through all of them about the natural world, about us, how those relate, and coming to some better understanding of self and relating to the world in a more benevolent way. That's my export, but I know there's much more to you. But it dawned on me as we were sitting down, I think the world knows very little about you, and maybe that's intentional. But I just want to know, when you were younger, were you... Were you sort of intrigued by or drawn to flora and fauna? Were you sort of like thinking about the humans in a certain way? It just strikes me that you have a very, it's going to sound like a scientist said it, but a very interdigitated way of thinking about us, them. Like you understand the difference between a human and a plant and an animal, which is great. But you also find these incredible points of connectivity. Yeah. That are really geared towards self-understanding and therefore helping the relationship. So can you trace that back to like something in particular? Or is that just your, or is this just downloaded into you?中文：惊人的。 我的意思是，我认为大脑是一个接收器。 我今天之前就听说过。 根据您的描述，现在对我来说确实很有意义。 我可以问一下你的情况吗？ 我可以从你那里得到一些建议吗？ 我们的听众也许能从你那里得到一些建议吗？ 你写了 10 本书，我在所有书中感受到了一条线索，关于自然世界、关于我们、它们之间的关系，以及对自我和以更仁慈的方式与世界的关系有了更好的理解。 这是我的出口，但我知道你还有更多。 但当我们坐下来时，我突然意识到，我认为世界对你知之甚少，也许这是故意的。 但我只是想知道，当你年轻的时候，你是否……对动植物感兴趣或被吸引？ 你是否有点像以某种方式思考人类？ 我只是觉得你有一种非常、听起来像科学家说的话，但却是一种非常交叉的方式来思考我们，他们。 就像你了解人类、植物和动物之间的区别一样，这很棒。 但您也会发现这些令人难以置信的连接点。 是的。 这确实是为了自我理解，从而有助于建立关系。 那么你能追溯到特别喜欢的东西吗？ 或者这只是你的，或者只是下载到你身上的？
Michael Pollan：
No, I, so I started gardening at a very young age, accidentally. I had an experience when I was four or five. I grew up on Long Island, suburban Long Island. And. I loved watermelon. And like everybody, thinking about the pits, you know, the seeds, when you swallow them or don't swallow them. And my mother would always encourage me to spit them out. And I did that. And I took some watermelon seeds and I just covered it with dirt. I was like really young and then forgot about it. And that must have been May or June. And I came back in September. And lo and behold, there was a watermelon. It was like the size of a football. But to me, it was huge. I was just so blown away by this. And it was just a formative moment. And I was so excited, I picked it. And I was running, and we had a concrete patio behind our house, and I had to show my mom this thing that I'd grown. I hadn't really done anything. So gardening was a really big part of it. And, you know, that puts you in relation to nature, an active relationship to nature. Most of us have a very kind of observer type relationship. We admire it from a distance on vacation, you know. But gardening thrusts you right in the middle of it. And you have to make decisions. And... Your plants have interests. You know, you're not the only interested creature here. Your plants have interests. And to the extent you can satisfy their interests, they're going to give you what you want. So that, you know, eventually, years later, I wrote my first book was about that. And I realized what was going on in the garde I actually think the garden at this point is a more valuable laboratory because we've saved all the land we're going to save. You know, I think 8% of the American landscape has been, we've locked it up, thrown away the key, which is great. Although actually Trump's trying to open the lock again. He's trying to sell some of it. Yeah, in Utah.中文：不，我，所以我很小的时候就无意中开始园艺了。 我四五岁的时候就有过一次经历。 我在长岛郊区长大。 和。 我喜欢西瓜。 和每个人一样，当你吞下或不吞下它们时，想想那些坑，你知道，种子。 我妈妈总是鼓励我把它们吐出来。 我就这么做了。 我拿了一些西瓜籽，然后用泥土覆盖它。 我当时真的很年轻，然后就忘记了。 那一定是五月或六月。 我九月份回来了。 你瞧，有一个西瓜。 它就像足球一样大小。 但对我来说，这是巨大的。 我对此感到非常震惊。 这只是一个形成的时刻。 我很兴奋，就选择了它。 我正在跑步，我们的房子后面有一个混凝土露台，我必须向我妈妈展示我种的这个东西。 我其实什么也没做。 所以园艺是其中非常重要的一部分。 而且，你知道，这让你与自然建立了联系，与自然建立了积极的关系。 我们大多数人都有一种非常观察者类型的关系。 你知道，我们在度假时从远处欣赏它。 但园艺却把你推到了其中。 你必须做出决定。 而且......你的植物有兴趣。 你知道，你并不是这里唯一感兴趣的生物。 你的植物有兴趣。 只要你能满足他们的兴趣，他们就会给你你想要的东西。 所以，你知道，最终，几年后，我写的第一本书就是关于这个的。 我意识到花园里发生了什么，我实际上认为花园在这一点上是一个更有价值的实验室，因为我们已经保存了我们要保存的所有土地。 你知道，我认为 8% 的美国景观，我们已经把它锁起来，扔掉了钥匙，这很棒。 尽管实际上特朗普正试图再次打开这把锁。 他正试图出售其中的一些。 是的，在犹他州。
Andrew Huberman：
I will say, just as a quick note, like this angers me so much, my friends who are hunters and like real outdoors people- We're very excited about the protection of these lands. And now they're essentially pissed at all forms of government. Let's just put it that way. Because they were promised something and it was taken away. And they're now truly outside the box of any political party. They will die before they let go of this land. Yeah.中文：我想说，作为一个简短的说明，这件事让我非常生气，我那些是猎人且真正热爱户外的朋友们——我们对这些土地的保护感到非常兴奋。而现在他们基本上对所有形式的政府都很生气。我们就这么说吧。因为他们被承诺了一些东西，但却被拿走了。而他们现在真的超出了任何政党的范畴。在他们放弃这片土地之前，他们绝不会妥协。是的。
Michael Pollan：
But it is really scary. It is truly scary. Some of our fishermen also and, yo And once we've decided that this side goes to capitalism and the marketplace, you know, we abuse it, and we have abused it. So learning how to behave in nature, I think, is really important. And that's guided a lot of my work. You're right in your take. Consciousness, you know, is part of that. It's like, where do our minds engage with Matter and nature and biology, and it's amazing. We don't know yet.中文：但它真的很可怕。它确实很可怕。我们的一些渔民也是，还有，哟。一旦我们决定这一边走向资本主义和市场，你知道，我们就滥用了它，而我们确实滥用了它。所以我认为学习如何在自然中行为真的很重要。这也指导了我很多的工作。你对这个观点是对的。意识，你知道，是其中的一部分。这就像，我们的思想如何与物质、自然和生物学交互，这是令人惊奇的。我们还不知道。
Andrew Huberman：
You also strike me as somebody who, you think about these very high-level problems. I don't know when that came about, but clearly you're observant and you think a lot. But many people who talk about psychedelics, write about psychedelics, and think about collective consciousness and are friendly with plants and plants like them, they're not like feet on the ground. So do you have...中文：你给我的感觉也是那种会思考非常高层次问题的人。我不知道这是从什么时候开始的，但显然你很细心，而且思考很多。但很多谈论迷幻药、写迷幻药文章、思考集体意识并且与植物友好相处的人，他们并不是脚踏实地的。那么你有……
Michael Pollan：
Actually changed a public conversation around food and then psychedelics.中文：实际上改变了关于食物然后关于迷幻药的公共对话。
Andrew Huberman：
I think about Omnivore's Dilemma, it was very present in, you know, when I was going through, you know, college and around that time, I think it was a graduate... 2006.中文：我想起《杂食者的困境》，它在那个时候非常明显，你知道的，当我上大学的时候，大约是在那个时候，我想那是研究生……2006 年。
Michael Pollan：
Okay. So it was, yeah, shortly, it was after college, but that book was everywhere. And the mantra from that book, right? Yeah. You know?中文：好吧。所以是的，很快，就在大学之后，但那本书无处不在。那本书里的咒语，对吧？是的。你知道的？
Andrew Huberman：
Eat food, not too much, mostly plants.中文：吃食物，不过量，主要是植物。
Michael Pollan：
So I never, you know, I didn't set out to start something. And certainly there were other important books that came out around the same period. Eric Schlosser's Fast Food Nation and Marion Nestle wrote a book called Food Politics that was very influential.中文：所以我从来没有，你知道，我并不是打算去开始某件事情。当然，在同一时期也有其他重要的书出版。埃里克·施洛瑟的《快餐国》和玛丽昂·内斯尔写了一本叫《食品政治》的书，非常有影响力。
Andrew Huberman：
The difference, I would say they're great and great admiration for them. But I would say that... Those were about what not to do. Like this is bad, you know? And like growing up, I read the one, it was Tom Robbins wrote a book from the Baskin Robbins family. What was that book? I forget the title. Something about sugar.中文：差别在于，我会说他们很棒，非常钦佩他们。但我会说……那些是关于不该做什么的。就像这是不好的，你知道吗？然后在成长过程中，我读过一本书，是汤姆·罗宾斯写的，关于巴斯金·罗宾斯家族的。那本书叫什么来着？我忘记书名了。好像是关于糖的东西。
Michael Pollan：
But it was about, I mean, you read it and you're just like the atrocities of the meat industry. So they're hard books to form a relationship to, because it's like, it's a bad, it's a great, they're great books, but about bad relationships. Good point. Whereas your book, it was about the love of these things. And so it was like this benevolence. Well, I've always felt if there's any way to put hope in a story, you need to put hope in a story because we need hope. It's our air, you know. And I remember I wrote a piece for The New York Times that became a chapter in Omnivore's Dilemma about the meat industry. And I followed this one cow through the whole process, you know, from insemination to slaughter. And it's a pretty dark story about how we produce beef in this country. And it's a long story. It's like 8,000 words. But I made a point to like, well, what are the alternatives? And I learned about grass-fed, grass-finished beef, which at the time was a tiny little market. And I had a couple paragraphs on this. There's another way to do it. So I was making the point that the food chain from which most of us are eating beef is floating on a sea of oil, and that it's fossil fuel to grow t You know, my editors were like, hey, this piece is already 8,000 words. You've got four paragraphs about grass-fed beef, which no one knows anything about and doesn't know where to get. You know, we got to cut that. I said, no, we have to leave that. That just shows the hope that we can grow our food using sunlight, not oil. And I won the fight, luckily, and was so gratified. A couple weeks after this piece came out, this piece made quite a bit of noise at the time, I walked into a butcher shop on College Avenue in Oakland, and I was kind of curious. I wonder if they have grass-fed beef. And so I asked the butcher, do you have grass-fed beef? And he goes, no. What is going on? You're the sixth person this week who asked me for grass-fed beef. And he got it. So that satisfies me a lot. I like writing where we can point a direction that it might be useful for, and that individuals can have some agency and not be just victims of these big systems. And I'm an optimistic person, finally. You said finally? Not your entire life? No, no, I think I have been. I think I'm optimistic. I also think that I'm the oldest of four kids. My father, who's no longer with us, was alcoholic. I had a lot of responsibility for being a sane person in the family dynamic, helping my mother with, you know, the household and things because my dad was kind of checked out. And so I think I do... I do value practical things, and that's why my instinct is always like, start with materialism, and if materialism fails, then we'll look at other weirder ideas.中文：但它是关于，我的意思是，你读了它，你就像肉类行业的暴行一样。 因此，它们是很难与之建立关系的书，因为它就像，它是一本坏书，它是一本很棒的书，它们是伟大的书，但关于糟糕的关系。 好点。 而你的书则是关于对这些事物的热爱。 这就是这样的仁慈。 嗯，我一直觉得，如果有什么办法可以在故事中注入希望，你需要在故事中注入希望，因为我们需要希望。 这是我们的空气，你知道。 我记得我为《纽约时报》写了一篇文章，成为《杂食者困境》中有关肉类行业的一章。 我跟踪这头牛完成了从受精到屠宰的整个过程。 关于我们如何在这个国家生产牛肉，这是一个非常黑暗的故事。 这是一个很长的故事。 好像有 8000 字。 但我想说的是，还有什么选择呢？ 我还了解了草饲、草成品牛肉，这在当时只是一个很小的市场。 我对此有几段话。 还有另一种方法可以做到这一点。 所以我的观点是，我们大多数人吃牛肉的食物链漂浮在石油的海洋上，而它是生长的化石燃料。你知道，我的编辑就像，嘿，这篇文章已经有 8,000 字了。 你有四段关于草饲牛肉的内容，没有人对此一无所知，也不知道从哪里可以获得。 你知道，我们必须削减它。 我说，不，我们必须离开这个。 这只是表明我们希望能够利用阳光而不是石油来种植食物。 幸运的是，我赢得了这场战斗，我感到非常高兴。 这篇文章发表几周后，这篇文章当时引起了不小的轰动，我走进奥克兰大学大道上的一家肉店，我有点好奇。 我想知道他们是否有草饲牛肉。 于是我问屠夫，你们有草饲牛肉吗？ 他说，不。 到底是怎么回事？ 你是本周第六个向我要草饲牛肉的人。 他明白了。 所以这让我很满足。 我喜欢写作，我们可以指出一个可能有用的方向，并且个人可以拥有一些代理权，而不仅仅是这些大系统的受害者。 最后，我是一个乐观的人。 你说最后？ 不是你的一生吗？ 不，不，我想我曾经是。 我想我很乐观。 我还认为我是四个孩子中最大的一个。 我的父亲已经不再和我们在一起了，他是个酒鬼。 在家庭动态中，我有很多责任要成为一个理智的人，帮助我的母亲处理家庭事务，因为我的父亲有点被检查了。 所以我认为我确实......我确实重视实用的东西，这就是为什么我的本能总是喜欢，从唯物主义开始，如果唯物主义失败，那么我们会看看其他更奇怪的想法。
90:00 - 100:00
Andrew Huberman：
Sorry to hear about your father and why you had to step into that role, but the world's fortunate that you did, because when I look at what I would call the important movements of the last 50, 60 years, and I think psychedelics is one of them, and it... But when I say that, I want to be clear. I'm talking about neuroplasticity to make people feel and be better versions of themselves. It may not come from psychedelics or even therapy or the somatics or breath work or health and fitness, all of it. You know, I feel like where each of those quote unquote movements reached its cliff was when the individual or individuals that were leading that movement were either too emotive中文：很抱歉听到你父亲的事情，也很抱歉你不得不承担那个角色，但世界很幸运你这样做了，因为当我回顾过去 50、60 年我认为的重要运动时，我认为迷幻药就是其中之一，且它……但当我这么说时，我想要澄清，我指的是通过神经可塑性让人们感觉更好并成为更好的自己。它可能不一定来自迷幻药，甚至不一定来自治疗、身体工作、呼吸练习或健康与健身，所有这些。你知道，我感觉每一个所谓的运动达到高峰的时候，都是当领导该运动的个人或个人群体情绪过于激烈的时候
Michael Pollan：
I mean, I do finally want to push the world in one direction and not in another. I mean, that's considered advocacy in journalism, and I own up to it. I mean, there's a point when I'm starting on a subject where I don't know a lot that I wouldn't pretend to know where the world should go or where the food industry should go. But at a certain point, You've mastered the subject, and it would be disingenuous not to think that I think we need to move this way. Not that we had such success. I mean, I just wrote a new introduction to Omnivore's Dilemma, and I wish the book were more dated than it is. The food system is still screwed up. I think we have more awareness of it. People have a better idea where their food comes from. They're making the link between... What they're eating and their health in a way, thanks to people like you, but a whole lot of other people. But we're still eating a terrible diet for the most part in this country. And we still have agriculture that is all about growing corn and soy, which are the building blocks of ultra-processed food, which is making us sick and killing us. So we have a long way to go. In a way, we've made more progress with psychedelics. But in the case of psychedelics, there was no opposition. I mean, there was some cultural opposition, you know, holdovers from the 60s. Yeah, the drug war and things like that.中文：我的意思是，我最终确实想将世界推向一个方向，而不是另一个方向。 我的意思是，这被认为是新闻业的倡导，我承认这一点。 我的意思是，当我开始研究一个我不太了解的主题时，我不会假装知道世界应该走向何方，或者食品工业应该走向何方。 但在某种程度上，你已经掌握了这个主题，如果不认为我认为我们需要这样做，那就太不诚实了。 并不是说我们取得了如此成功。 我的意思是，我刚刚写了一篇关于杂食者困境的新介绍，我希望这本书比现在更过时。 食品系统仍然一团糟。 我认为我们对此有了更多的认识。 人们更清楚他们的食物来自哪里。 他们正在以某种方式将他们所吃的东西和他们的健康联系起来，这要感谢像你这样的人，还有很多其他人。 但在这个国家的大部分地区，我们的饮食仍然很糟糕。 我们的农业仍然以种植玉米和大豆为主，它们是超加工食品的基础，而这些食品正在让我们生病并杀死我们。 所以我们还有很长的路要走。 在某种程度上，我们在迷幻药方面取得了更多进展。 但就致幻剂而言，没有人反对。 我的意思是，存在一些文化上的对立，你知道，这是 60 年代遗留下来的。 是的，毒品战争之类的。
Andrew Huberman：
He didn't like drugs. Now the red side is all about Ibogaine for veterans.中文：他不喜欢毒品。现在红方全都在谈论针对退伍军人的伊波加因。
Michael Pollan：
It is the most amazing transformation.中文：这是最惊人的变化。
Andrew Huberman：
Rick Perry, self-described. I like Rick. I get along with him. He's very bipartisan about this psychedelic thing. And he just self-described. You said it, Rick. He calls himself a knuckle-dragging Republican who's into heart medicine. He used those words publicly, so I'm happy to repeat it. I love it.中文：里克·佩里，自称。我喜欢里克。我和他相处得很好。他对这种迷幻药的态度非常两党化。他只是自我描述。你说过了，里克。他称自己为一个迷恋心脏药物的‘落后共和党人’。他公开使用了这些词，所以我很高兴重复一遍。我喜欢它。
Michael Pollan：
He really wants these medicines to be available to all.中文：他真的希望这些药物能够对所有人都可用。
Andrew Huberman：
Veterans who are experiencing PTSD and substance abuse issues. And he's worked very, very hard across the aisle to try and bring these things to legal, safe standards.中文：经历创伤后应激障碍和物质滥用问题的退伍军人。他在跨党派合作方面非常非常努力，试图将这些问题带入合法、安全的标准。
Michael Pollan：
And this is the only way in our current political moment anything gets done is you need support on the right as well as the left. And that's been a lesson of the food movement, which was coded kind of left liberal. Now you have MAHA. And there are a lot of problems with Maha, but there are areas of agreement on pesticides and on ultra-processed food, getting it out of schools. You know, you used to hear the food movement was elitist. You don't hear that anymore. And that's because you have people on the right who are supporting, want to push the world in the same direction. That's a really good point. So we have some hope. There's some hope there.中文：在我们当前的政治时刻，事情能够推进的唯一方式就是你需要得到右派和左派的支持。这也是食品运动的一个教训，它曾经被标记为有点左翼自由主义。现在你有了 MAHA。Maha 存在很多问题，但在农药和超加工食品方面有一些共识，比如将其从学校中去除。你知道，以前人们说食品运动是精英主义的，你现在不再听到这个说法。这是因为你有来自右派的人在支持，想要推动世界朝同一个方向发展。这是一个非常好的观点。所以我们还有一些希望，那里有希望。
Andrew Huberman：
Yeah. No, that's it. Gosh, we've got to really break down the divisions to move healthy eating forward. I was just going to end psychedelics in the safest way. I was struck when I started to look at the new food pyramid stuff. I realized that the American foods have never been healt We think hot dogs, hamburgers, mac and cheese, french fries, like cotton candy.中文：是的。不，就这样。天啊，我们真的必须彻底拆分这些分界线，才能推动健康饮食的发展。我本来只是想以最安全的方式结束对迷幻药的讨论。当我开始了解新的食物金字塔时，我感到很震惊。我意识到，美国的食物从未真正健康。我们认为热狗、汉堡、奶酪通心粉、薯条，就像棉花糖一样。
Michael Pollan：
These are the most American, as American as apple pie, right? We don't talk, right? So the classic American foods were all very unhealthy. So I wonder if there's a way to redefine what American food is.中文：这些是最美国的，美国得就像苹果派，对吧？我们不交流，是吧？所以经典的美国食物都非常不健康。所以我在想是否有办法重新定义什么是美国食物。
Andrew Huberman：
And that to me would be cool because Americans also pride themselves on being Pioneers of all sorts of things, including physical endeavors that require a lot of vitality and strength, endurance, and coordination. So those generally don't come from the foods I described.中文：这对我来说很酷，因为美国人也以成为各种事物的开拓者而自豪，包括那些需要大量活力和力量、耐力以及协调能力的体力活动。所以这些通常不是我描述的食物所能提供的。
Michael Pollan：
No, they don't. And America's never had a real food tradition until fast food is really our food. Bummer. I'm sorry to say. Bummer. But people came from all these other countries, and they had a food tradition, and it got kind of stomped out of them. I think part of the problem is since we didn't have these deep roots in this food tradition, we were much more vulnerable to marketing. And then say the French are or the Italians are. And they had something to resist what the marketplace wanted to do with food, which is, of course, to process it with the cheapest possible raw ingredients. So yeah, we need to build an American cuisine that is healthy, but it's easier said than done. Or we borrow, I mean, look, we talk about the Mediterranean diet, right? It's one of the diets we have good reason to believe is healthier than others and is attractive to a lot of people. So it doesn't have to be ours, I suppose. We could borrow it from somewhere else. But it's very hard to change people's eating habits, and one of the hardest things, and habit in general, right? So, you know, I don't see it as easy. And in general, the fact that there's a growing recognition, though, that most of the chronic diseases we're dealing with, the ones that are killing Corn, which gives us high fructose corn syrup, which gives us diabetes. So we're supporting both sides in the war on type 2 diabetes, right? We're supporting the sugar and we're supporting the treatment. It's insane. It is insane. And it's costing us a fortune. So we have to change the policy and make healthy food cheaper relative to unhealthy food.中文：不，他们没有。 在快餐真正成为我们的食物之前，美国从未有过真正的饮食传统。 真糟糕。 很遗憾地说。 真糟糕。 但人们来自所有其他国家，他们有自己的饮食传统，但这种传统却被他们践踏了。 我认为部分问题是因为我们在这种饮食传统中没有深厚的根基，所以我们更容易受到营销的影响。 然后说法国人是或意大利人是。 他们有一些东西可以抵制市场对食品的要求，当然，就是用尽可能便宜的原材料来加工食品。 所以，是的，我们需要打造一种健康的美国美食，但说起来容易做起来难。 或者我们借用，我的意思是，看，我们谈论地中海饮食，对吗？ 我们有充分的理由相信这是一种比其他饮食更健康并且对很多人有吸引力的饮食。 所以我想它不一定是我们的。 我们可以从其他地方借用它。 但改变人们的饮食习惯是非常困难的，而且是最难的事情之一，而且是一般的习惯，对吧？ 所以，你知道，我认为这并不容易。 总的来说，人们越来越认识到，我们正在应对的大多数慢性疾病，都是导致玉米死亡的疾病，玉米会产生高果糖玉米糖浆，从而导致糖尿病。 所以我们支持 2 型糖尿病战争的双方，对吗？ 我们支持糖，我们支持治疗。 太疯狂了。 这太疯狂了。 这让我们损失了一大笔钱。 所以我们必须改变政策，让健康食品相对于不健康食品更便宜。
Andrew Huberman：
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, Matina. Matina makes my absolute favorite zero-sugar cold brew yerba mate. In fact, I helped create the newest flavors. Listeners of this podcast know that yerba mate is my preferred caffeine source and has been for a long time. That's because Yerba provides a smooth energy lift without giving you the jitters, and it has many other potential benefits, such as helping to regulate blood sugar, improving digestion, mild appetite suppression, and more. And I can tell you that having tried all the different brands of Yerba, hot and cold, Matina is my absolute favorite. So much so that I became a partial owner in the company. And the flavors we developed together, I have to say, are fantastic. Raspberry yuzo is probably my favorite, but I also like the mint flavor and I love the peach flavor. So I really can't pick just one. I love them all. In fact, I drink at least three cans of them every day, and you'll often see them on the table during my podcast recordings. If you want to try Matina, you can go to drinkmatina.com. You can also find Matina at both Whole Foods and Sprouts Market nationwide. And Matina is now being sold at all Earth Bar locations nationwide. Earth Bar has also come up with a new Matina smoothie called The Protocol that you can try for a limited time. I've tried it, and it's absolutely delicious. It has, of course, Matina. It has fruits and vegetables. It's sweetened only with pineapple. It has collagen and whey protein. It's absolutely delicious. It's also beautiful. The colors are beautiful. So be sure to check out Matina nationwide at Whole Foods, Sprouts, and now Earth Bar as well. Is the current administration with the emphasis on healthy eating that they're out there with? They're not doing anything. They're not doing anything.中文：我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商马蒂娜。 马蒂娜制作了我最喜欢的零糖冷萃马黛茶。 事实上，我帮助创造了最新的口味。 这个播客的听众都知道马黛茶是我最喜欢的咖啡因来源，而且已经这样很长时间了。 这是因为巴拉圭茶可以平稳地提升能量，而不会让您感到紧张，而且它还有许多其他潜在的好处，例如帮助调节血糖、改善消化、轻度抑制食欲等等。 我可以告诉你，在尝试了所有不同品牌的耶巴茶（热的和冷的）之后，Matina 绝对是我的最爱。 以至于我成为了公司的部分所有者。 我不得不说，我们共同开发的口味非常棒。 覆盆子柚子可能是我的最爱，但我也喜欢薄荷味，也喜欢桃子味。 所以我真的不能只选一个。 我爱他们所有人。 事实上，我每天至少喝三罐，在我的播客录音中你经常会在桌子上看到它们。 如果您想尝试 Matina，可以访问 Drinkmatina.com。 您还可以在全国的 Whole Foods 和 Sprouts Market 找到 Matina。 Matina 现已在全国所有 Earth Bar 门店出售。 Earth Bar 还推出了一款名为 The Protocol 的新 Matina 冰沙，您可以在有限的时间内尝试。 我试过了，绝对好吃。 当然，还有马蒂娜。 它有水果和蔬菜。 它只用菠萝增甜。 它含有胶原蛋白和乳清蛋白。 绝对好吃。 它也很漂亮。 颜色很漂亮。 因此，请务必在全国范围内的 Whole Foods、Sprouts 以及现在的 Earth Bar 看看 Matina。 现任政府是否像他们那样强调健康饮食？ 他们什么也没做。 他们什么也没做。
100:00 - 110:00
Michael Pollan：
No. I mean, RFK Jr. has been talking a good game on this. But meanwhile, the big, beautif I don't think that's that big a deal. I don't think dyes are a crucial health problem, and it's voluntary. So this administration is not going to regulate anything. And the changes we need in the food system, getting ultra-processed food out of the school lunch program is going to require regulations. And they're deregulating pesticides like crazy. Yeah, that's concerning. Very concerning. So, no, I don't think it's an honest effort, but I do think what RFK Jr. has done that is valuable is he's surfaced this other constituency that we were not aware of. And these are mothers, many of whom have kids with serious illnesses that they're trying to treat with a better diet. And I met them without knowing it. When I was writing Omnivore's Dilemma, I was hanging out on Joel Salatin's farm. He's a very progressive farmer in, In Virginia, who has pioneered a kind of grass-based agriculture where he rotates different species over the same grasslands and grows amazing food, eggs and meat especially. And he's in the middle of nowhere. He's like 45 minutes from the interstate. And these people would show up on Saturdays to pick up their pastured chickens. And I was wondering, who are these people and how do they know about him? And they were part of a whole network. And they were these maha moms before they were called that. And they were members of something called the Weston Price Society, which is a long story, but promotes grass-based animal protein and has been around since the 30s or so and has a very big network that No one on the coast notices, but it's out there. And I would talk to these mothers and they, you know, they had their thing with seed oils and food is medicine. And, you know, they were not aligned with science always, but they were passionate about clean food and were willing to drive a hundred miles to get it then. Wow. So Kennedy surfaced these people, and now they're engaged politically. And if the food movement can make common cause with them... And we've seen some early signs. There was a bill in Congress that the administration was supporting that would have exempted pesticide makers from lawsuits, all lawsuits. And it was in an appropriations bill. Shelley Pingree, who's a food movement leader and an organic farmer from Maine in Congress, she got together with Maha activists and they got it stripped out of the bill. And they did it twice. Right. So that's what we need. That's the kind of politics, just like psychedelics, right and left together, you can get things done.中文：不，我的意思是，RFK Jr. 在这方面一直在谈论一个很好的游戏。 但与此同时，我认为这没什么大不了的。 我不认为染料是一个严重的健康问题，而且它是自愿的。 所以本届政府不会监管任何事情。 我们需要对食品系统进行变革，将超加工食品从学校午餐计划中剔除，这将需要法规的支持。 他们疯狂地放松对农药的管制。 是的，这很令人担忧。 非常令人担忧。 所以，不，我不认为这是一个诚实的努力，但我确实认为小罗伯特·肯尼迪所做的有价值的事情是他让我们不知道的另一个选区浮出水面。 这些都是母亲，其中许多人的孩子患有严重的疾病，她们正在尝试通过更好的饮食来治疗这些疾病。 而我却在不知不觉中遇见了他们。 当我写《杂食动物的困境》时，我正在乔尔·萨拉丁的农场闲逛。 他是弗吉尼亚州一位非常进步的农民，开创了一种以草为基础的农业，他在同一片草地上轮换不同的物种，种植令人惊叹的食物，尤其是鸡蛋和肉类。 而且他在一个偏僻的地方。 他距离州际公路大约 45 分钟路程。 这些人每周六都会来取他们放养的鸡。 我想知道这些人是谁，他们是怎么知道他的？ 他们是整个网络的一部分。 在被称为玛哈妈妈之前，她们就是这些玛哈妈妈。 他们是韦斯顿价格协会（Weston Price Society）的成员，这个协会说来话长，但它提倡以草为基础的动物蛋白，自 30 年代左右以来就已存在，拥有一个非常大的网络，沿海地区没有人注意到，但它就在那里。 我会和这些母亲交谈，你知道，她们对种子油有自己的看法，食物就是药物。 而且，你知道，他们并不总是与科学保持一致，但他们对清洁食品充满热情，并且愿意开车一百英里来获得它。 哇。 所以肯尼迪让这些人浮出水面，现在他们开始参与政治。 如果食品运动能够与他们达成共同目标……我们已经看到了一些早期迹象。 政府正在支持国会的一项法案，该法案将免除农药制造商的诉讼，所有诉讼。 这是在拨款法案中。 雪莱·平格里（Shelley Pingree）是一位食品运动领袖，也是一位来自缅因州的国会有机农民，她与玛哈活动人士会面，他们将其从法案中删除了。 他们做了两次。 正确的。 这就是我们所需要的。 这就是政治，就像迷幻药一样，左派和右派在一起，就能把事情做好。
Andrew Huberman：
Yeah, amen to that. And forever stamped in my brain is, you know, Rick Perry, and I forget who it was on the Democratic side, like literally holding hands, like we're for heart medicine. And this was at a veteran's benefit. And it's interesting, similarly to, well, in sort of parallel construction, as you said, whereas the food, slow food and, you know, movement, healthy food movement used to be considered elitist, and now it's not. Yeah. The psychedelics thing used to be like big sir hippies, very left-leaning, and what seems to have moved the most intense of all the psychedelics, Ibogaine, looks like it's going to cross the line into a true supported therapeutic. Rick Perry, but also I would add Rick Doblin. And Rick Doblin. The Ricks. The Ricks. The two Ricks. The Ricks. Two very different characters. I'll say. Actually, here's a funny one about Rick Doblin, that at this event, he got up there and he said, it was a room full of veterans. A lot of SEALs, a lot of spec ops folks. And the first thing he said was that he was a conscientious objector during the Vietnam War. And the room just went silent. And then I looked around and there were a lot of smiles.中文：是的，阿门。 你知道，里克·佩里（Rick Perry）永远印在我的脑海里，我忘记了民主党方面的人是谁，就像字面上牵着手，就像我们支持心脏病医学一样。 这对退伍军人来说是有利的。 这很有趣，就像你所说的，类似的并行结构，而食物、慢食以及你知道的运动、健康食品运动曾经被认为是精英主义，但现在不是了。 是的。 迷幻药过去就像大嬉皮士一样，非常左倾，而伊博加因似乎是所有迷幻药中最强烈的，看起来它将跨越界限，成为真正的支持疗法。 里克·佩里 (Rick Perry)，但我还要加上里克·多布林 (Rick Doblin)。 还有里克·多布林。 里克一家。 里克一家。 两个瑞克。 里克一家。 两个截然不同的角色。 我会说。 事实上，关于里克·多布林（Rick Doblin），有一个有趣的事情，在这次活动中，他站起来说，这是一屋子的退伍军人。 很多海豹突击队队员，很多特种部队人员。 他说的第一句话就是，他是越南战争期间的良心拒服兵役者。 房间里一片寂静。 然后我环顾四周，发现有很多微笑。
Michael Pollan：
They appreciated his honesty. Honesty, yeah. And, you know, I adore him. The guy has nothing if not us. I adore him, too. I adore him, too. But he very deliberately reached out to the right years ago. Mm-hmm. I remember he took a contribution from Rebecca Mercer, who was a big Trump One supporter, and people gave him a lot of grief in his organization. And, you know, why are you in bed with someone from the right? And he said, no, this is really important. This is how we're going to get change. So he's a visionary. Yeah. Yeah.中文：他们欣赏他的诚实。诚实，是的。你知道，我很崇拜他。这个家伙除了我们什么都没有。我也崇拜他。我也崇拜他。但他很明确地在多年前就向右翼伸出了手。嗯嗯。我记得他接受了 Rebecca Mercer 的一笔捐款，她是特朗普一派的大支持者，而他组织里的人给了他很多压力。你知道，人们会问，你怎么会与右翼的人有联系？他却说，不，这真的很重要。这是我们将带来改变的方式。所以他是个有远见的人。是的。是的。
Andrew Huberman：
And he reached out to the veterans groups, and so he deserves some of the credit too. Definitely. The Ricks, excuse me for not crediting you. Doblin. Doblin has the worst diet ever. We're working on him. He has croissants and orange juice for breakfast, and he has more energy than any human being alive. Awake and cheerful and clear of mind. For 20 hours. And a journalist's dream, because he never goes off the record, and he'll tell you exactly what he thinks. I love it. A couple more questions about psychedelics, and then I want to talk about the most important drug on the planet, which is caffeine. But when do you think MDMA and or psilocybin will get FDA approval, given what you understand? Because it's kind of wild that ibogaine, the one psychedelic that no one would even want to use recreationally, is going to get there first.中文：他还联系了退伍军人组织，所以他也应当获得一些功劳。绝对的。抱歉没提到瑞克斯，你们也有功劳。多布林。多布林的饮食史上最糟糕。我们正在努力改善他。他早餐只吃羊角面包和橙汁，但他的精力比任何人都充沛。清醒、愉快、头脑清晰。持续 20 小时。对记者来说简直是梦想，因为他从不要求匿名，他会完全告诉你他的想法。我喜欢这点。还有几个关于迷幻药的问题，然后我想谈谈地球上最重要的药物，那就是咖啡因。根据你所了解的，你认为 MDMA 或裸盖菇素什么时候能获得 FDA 批准？因为有点不可思议的是，伊波加因这种没有人会想要娱乐性使用的迷幻药会最先得到批准。
Michael Pollan：
And hasn't been, by the way, subjected to university drug trials.中文：顺便说一下，也没有接受过大学的药物试验。
Andrew Huberman：
Right. That's kind of incredible. It's incredible. Yeah. So what about MDMA and psilocybin?中文：对。那有点难以置信。真是难以置信。是的。那么 MDMA 和迷幻蘑菇呢？
Michael Pollan：
They're closer. So the Resilient is the name of the company. It used to be Lycos. It was part of MAPS. They've put forward MDMA in the treatment of trauma. And they were turned down once, but they've resubmitted with some additional data. It looks like they're fast-tracked. The same executive order that is fast-tracking Ibogaine is fast-tracking other psychedelics. It was apparently originally written for Ibogaine, and somebody in the White House said, it's kind of crazy to just do this one. There are these others that are closer to having the data we need. And then psilocybin coming from Compass, a company called Compass Pathways, is also close. You know, I hear before the end of the year, but... It's hard to believe. I've been hearing it's close for a long time. I think it really is close this time. The reason it's happening, we should be clear, is because Joe Rogan texted the president and said this is really important. He had done a show on Ibogaine. And President Trump, having lost the Manosphere vote, or afraid of losing the Manosphere vote, wanted to give Rogan something he cared about. And, you know, is this the way to do drug approvals in America? I have some questions about that. I think Trump's doing the right thing for the wrong reasons. But there we are. So I think it will happen soon. It's going to be an earthquake when it happens because... They'll be approved as medicines and to be administered in a certain way with some regulations. But the message that the public will take, that the society will take, is that these things that we thought were dangerous drugs are medicines. People who haven't thought about psychedelics, we are in a small community of people who've been thinking about psychedelics for the last 10 years. Everyone's going to be saying, is this for me? Is this for my kid? Is this for my parents?中文：他们更近了。 因此，Resilient 就是该公司的名称。 以前是莱科斯。 它是 MAPS 的一部分。 他们提出使用摇头丸来治疗创伤。 他们曾被拒绝过一次，但他们重新提交了一些额外的数据。 看起来他们的进度很快。 快速追踪伊博加因的同一行政命令也快速追踪其他致幻剂。 它显然最初是为伊博加因写的，白宫有人说，只做这个有点疯狂。 还有其他一些更接近我们需要的数据。 来自 Compass（一家名为 Compass Pathways 的公司）的裸盖菇素也很接近。 你知道，我听说年底前会发生，但是……这很难相信。 我已经听说它很接近了很长一段时间。 我想这次真的很接近了。 我们应该清楚，发生这种情况的原因是因为乔·罗根给总统发短信说这非常重要。 他在《伊博加因》上做过节目。 特朗普总统在失去了马诺菲尔的投票后，或者害怕失去了马诺菲尔的投票，想给罗根一些他关心的东西。 而且，你知道，这就是美国药品审批的方式吗？ 我对此有一些疑问。 我认为特朗普出于错误的原因做了正确的事情。 但我们就在那里。 所以我认为这很快就会发生。 当它发生时，这将是一场地震，因为……它们将被批准作为药物，并按照某些规定以某种方式进行管理。 但公众、社会将会接受的信息是，这些我们认为是危险药物的东西实际上是药物。 那些没有考虑过迷幻药的人，我们属于一个在过去 10 年里一直在考虑迷幻药的小社区。 每个人都会说，这是给我的吗？ 这是给我的孩子的吗？ 这是给我父母的吗？
110:00 - 120:00
Andrew Huberman：
Yikes. Well, except for the parents part. I'm just kidding. I wouldn't mind doing psychedelics with my parents, but I hear you loud and clear. I mean, there are people who have predisposition to psychosis or heart issues that-中文：哎呀。嗯，除了父母那部分。我开玩笑的。我不介意和我的父母一起体验迷幻药，但我完全理解你的意思。我的意思是，有些人有精神病或心脏问题的倾向，那些-
Michael Pollan：
Yeah. And look what's happened with cannabis. I mean, we thought cannabis was a very safe drug, but now that it is being used so widely, we're learning about addiction- Psychosis. And psychosis. And so- You know, it's going to be a, I think there's a lot of public education to be done to help people navigate this. And, you know, they're not for everybody. And there are people who definitely should stay away from psychedelics. And so it's going to be a very interesting couple of years after it's approved. And I hope it's done with some care. But we'll see. I mean, there is enormous hope here. And many people... We can talk about the risks. They're real risks. But there are people whose lives will be saved by this. I mean, I have interviewed so many people who've had transformative experiences that have cured their addictions, their depression, their OCD, obsessive compulsive disorder. I mean, there is a't work very well. If we do this right, we're going to benefit an enormous number of people. But doing it right is not going to be easy.中文：是的。 看看大麻发生了什么。 我的意思是，我们认为大麻是一种非常安全的药物，但现在它被广泛使用，我们正在了解成瘾 - 精神病。 还有精神病。 所以-你知道，这将是，我认为需要进行大量的公共教育来帮助人们应对这一问题。 而且，你知道，它们并不适合所有人。 有些人绝对应该远离迷幻药。 因此，在获得批准后的几年里，这将是非常有趣的事情。 我希望这件事能谨慎完成。 但我们会看到。 我的意思是，这里有巨大的希望。 很多人......我们可以谈论风险。 它们是真正的风险。 但有些人的生命将因此得到拯救。 我的意思是，我采访过很多人，他们都有过变革性的经历，这些经历治愈了他们的毒瘾、抑郁症、强迫症和强迫症。 我的意思是，有一项工作做得不太好。 如果我们做得正确，我们将使大量的人受益。 但要做到正确并不容易。
Andrew Huberman：
Wow. You made all the critical points. And I also want to extend my gratitude to you and Tim Ferriss, who've worked really, really hard.中文：哇。你提出了所有关键点。我也想向你和蒂姆·费里斯表示感谢，你们都付出了非常非常多的努力。
Michael Pollan：
Tim's done amazing work.中文：Tim 做得很出色。
Andrew Huberman：
Amazing work to get this to where it is and hopefully across the line and done right. I know you both care a lot about that, and there are others, but you guys have really stuck your necks out there early when it was risky and have really continued to...中文：将这项工作做到现在这个阶段真是令人惊叹，希望能够顺利完成并做得正确。我知道你们两个对此非常关心，也有其他人关心，但你们在早期风险很大的时候真的挺身而出，并且一直持续...
Michael Pollan：
I remember how nervous I was when I published How to Change Your Mind. I was talking about my own psychedelic experience. I didn't know what would happen. I thought the police would be knocking at the door. And we landed right.中文：我记得当我出版《如何改变你的思维》时，我是多么紧张。我在谈论我自己的迷幻药体验。我不知道会发生什么。我以为警察会敲门。而我们却成功了。
Andrew Huberman：
The timing was right.中文：时机正好。
Michael Pollan：
Yeah, the timing was right.中文：是的，时机正好。
Andrew Huberman：
You were like really early, but not so early that... The police would be at your door and yeah, wild. I listened to, because as I recall, it's only an audio book, your book about doing this absolutely stupid experiment. No, I'm kidding. But it was so awesome. I love this book where you quit caffeine. And I drink a lot of caffeine. From the first time I took a sip of mate, I was like, this completes me, you know, in some way. You know, the same way some people who drink alcohol feel, and I'm grateful it's caffeine and not alcohol. Much better drug. Yeah, I think so. And 90% of the world's adults consume it every day and on and on. And I love it. And unless I've been sick, I don't really know life without caffeine. You should try it, though. Yeah, so I was going to say, what do you think an experiment like quitting caffeine for an extended period of time could do for somebody like me or for somebody listening that would perhaps allow the caffeine to be even a better experience after? Is that what it's about? Or what did you discover about consciousness?中文：你真的很早，但还没有早到……警察会在你家门口，是的，很疯狂。 我听了，因为我记得，这只是一本有声书，你的书是关于做这个绝对愚蠢的实验的。 不，我在开玩笑。 但它太棒了。 我喜欢这本书，其中你戒掉了咖啡因。 我喝了很多咖啡因。 从我第一次喝马黛茶时，我就想，这在某种程度上让我变得完整。 你知道，就像有些喝酒的人有同样的感觉，我很庆幸那是咖啡因而不是酒精。 更好的药物。 是的，我想是的。 世界上 90% 的成年人每天都在不断地消费它。 我喜欢它。 除非我生过病，否则我真的不知道没有咖啡因的生活。 不过你应该尝试一下。 是的，所以我想说，你认为像长时间戒掉咖啡因这样的实验对于像我这样的人或者对于那些倾听的人来说可能会有什么作用，也许会让咖啡因成为一种更好的体验？ 是这样的吗？ 或者你对意识有什么发现？
Michael Pollan：
Seriously, what did you discover about – Your relationship to substances or work or focus or anything, what was revealed there? I read the book, I listened to the book, and I highly recommend it as I do all your books. And it is in a print book too. I subsequently put it in a book called This Is Your Mind on Plants, which came out a couple of years ago, and it's one of three chapters in that book. So caffeine is a really interesting drug. First of all, most of us don't think of it as a drug, but it is a drug to which most of us are addicted. And something like 90% use it on a daily basis, whether it's in the form of coffee, tea, or herbamante, or a couple of other substances. I interviewed Roland Griffith when I started writing about caffeine because before he got involved, he was the psychopharmacologist at Johns Hopkins who did the initial work on psilocybin and really launched the psychedelic renaissance. But before he worked on psychedelics, he worked on caffeine. So I wanted to talk to him about it. And during this interview, he said, you know, the only way you can really understand a drug... That you're taking habitually is to get off it. You can't understand it until it's out of your system completely. So he proposed that I go on this caffeine fast. I started really young, like 8 or 10. It was a way to be with my dad. He would get up really early in the morning, and he got home very late at night. And as I said, he's sort of absent a lot of the time. But the time I could really connect with him was at breakfast. I'd drag myself out of bed and have coffee with him. And so my addiction started very early. It was very hard to get off. If you go cold turkey, people describe flu-like symptoms. I just felt off. I could not focus. I felt like I had ADHD. I didn't feel myself, which is odd. And I couldn't write at all. I mean, it was so wired into my writing process. It was just forget it, you know, that idea of sitting at a desk. And it was just really hard to do, to shake it. After a couple... Days, the symptoms started to subside, and I finally got to this point where I had no caffeine in my system, and I wasn't having tea either. But even then, I didn't feel like myself. And I thought, well, isn't that weird? You feel more yourself on a drug than not on the drug? I just felt like I was somebody else. It was hard. I did it for about three months. And all the while, I'm researching caffeine and learning about it. And learning, you know, it's not bad for you. You can overuse it. It has a lot of very positive health effects, up to seven or eight cups a day. And at that point, problems begin. And some people get jittery on a lot less than that, but for most people. It is addictive, but aside from jitteriness, if you get it, the negative effects are outweighed by positive effects. Helps people with Parkinson's, reduces blood pressure. I forget, I had a whole list of all the health benefits. And some of them are not tied to the caffeine, of course. They're also very valuable polyphenols in coffee and tea, which are a great boon to the microbiome. But... The day I got back on caffeine, my first cup, it was just the best drug experience, better than any psychedelic experience I've had. It was so powerful. I was just flying. I had all this energy. And I came home and I cleaned my closet, which I never do. I cleaned up the garden. I just was just, I was a superman. It was just wonderful. And then I had another cup and it was like, not a special. But I thought to myself, is there a way to preserve that power? Because getting back on caffeine is very different than the daily experience of getting to baseline, which is essentially what you're doing with an addiction like that. So I thought, okay, I'm only going to do caffeine one day a week. Saturdays, I'll have coffee. Nothing, none else. And it worked for a few weeks, and my Saturday coffee was wonderful. But then I had a big deadline on a Thursday, and I thought, you know, this would really get me over the hump if I have a cup and slippery slope back to, you know, every day. But I appreciate it. I have no bad faith about drinking coffee. I think it's God's gift to mankind in so many ways. Tea, too. I also drink green tea. I think we're very lucky to have it. It does have very positive cognitive benefits in terms of focus. I mean, people, you know, they've done tests on students who, preparing for an exam, if they have a cup of coffee or tea, Or maybe it's done with pills because they had a placebo control. Probably with pills. The ones who had caffeine performed better on the tests. It's a really great focus drug. It's cocaine without all the problems.中文：说真的，你发现了什么——你与物质、工作、注意力或任何东西的关系，那里揭示了什么？ 我读过这本书，听过这本书，我强烈推荐这本书，就像我推荐你所有的书一样。 它也出现在印刷书中。 随后，我将其放入几年前出版的一本名为《这是你对植物的想法》的书中，这是该书中的三章之一。 所以咖啡因是一种非常有趣的药物。 首先，我们大多数人并不认为它是一种药物，但它是一种我们大多数人都会上瘾的药物。 大约 90% 的人每天都会使用它，无论是以咖啡、茶、herbamante 还是其他几种物质的形式。 当我开始撰写有关咖啡因的文章时，我采访了罗兰·格里菲斯，因为在他参与其中之前，他是约翰·霍普金斯大学的精神药理学家，他对裸盖菇素进行了初步研究，并真正启动了迷幻剂的复兴。 但在他研究迷幻药之前，他研究过咖啡因。 所以我想和他谈谈这件事。 在这次采访中，他说，你知道，真正理解药物的唯一方法......你习惯性服用的药物就是戒掉它。 除非它完全脱离你的系统，否则你无法理解它。 所以他建议我快速摄入咖啡因。 我很小的时候就开始了，大概八岁或十岁。这是和父亲在一起的一种方式。 他早上起得很早，晚上很晚才回家。 正如我所说，他很多时候都缺席。 但我真正能和他交流的时间是在早餐的时候。 我会把自己从床上拖起来，和他一起喝咖啡。 所以我的瘾很早就开始了。 下车非常困难。 如果你突然戒掉，人们会描述类似流感的症状。 我只是感觉不舒服。 我无法集中注意力。 我感觉自己患有多动症。 我没有感觉到自己，这很奇怪。 而我根本无法写作。 我的意思是，它是如此融入我的写作过程。 你知道，只是忘记坐在办公桌前的想法。 想要动摇它真的很难。 几天后，症状开始消退，我终于达到了我的系统中没有咖啡因的地步，而且我也没有喝茶。 但即便如此，我还是感觉不像自己。 我想，这不是很奇怪吗？ 您对药物的感觉比没有药物时更强烈？ 我只是觉得我是另一个人。 这很难。 我做了大约三个月。 一直以来，我都在研究咖啡因并了解它。 学习，你知道，这对你来说并不是坏事。 你可能会过度使用它。 它对健康有很多非常积极的影响，每天最多喝七八杯。 到那时，问题就开始了。 有些人的紧张情绪远没有那么严重，但对大多数人来说。 它会让人上瘾，但除了紧张之外，如果你得到它，负面影响会超过正面影响。 帮助帕金森氏症患者，降低血压。 我忘了，我有一份所有健康益处的完整清单。 当然，其中一些与咖啡因无关。 它们也是咖啡和茶中非常有价值的多酚，对微生物群有很大的好处。 但是……当我重新摄入咖啡因的那一天，我的第一杯咖啡，那是最好的药物体验，比我经历过的任何迷幻体验都要好。 它是如此强大。 我只是在飞翔。 我拥有所有这些能量。 我回到家，清理了我的衣柜，但我从来没有这么做过。 我打扫了花园。 我只是，我是一个超人。 真是太棒了。 然后我又喝了一杯，感觉不是特别的。 但我心里想，有没有办法保存这种力量呢？ 因为重新摄入咖啡因与达到基线的日常体验非常不同，这本质上就是你对这样的成瘾所做的事情。 所以我想，好吧，我每周只喝一天咖啡。 周六，我会喝咖啡。 没有什么，没有别的。 它持续了几个星期，我周六的咖啡很棒。 但后来我在周四有一个很大的截止日期，我想，你知道，如果我每天都有一个杯子和滑坡，这真的会让我渡过难关。 但我很感激。 我对喝咖啡没有恶意。 我认为这是上帝在很多方面给人类的礼物。 茶也一样。 我也喝绿茶。 我认为我们很幸运能拥有它。 它在注意力方面确实具有非常积极的认知益处。 我的意思是，人们，你知道，他们对准备考试的学生进行了测试，如果他们喝了一杯咖啡或茶，或者可能用药物来完成，因为他们有安慰剂对照。 可能是用药丸。 那些摄入咖啡因的人在测试中表现更好。 这是一种非常好的集中药物。 这是可卡因，没有任何问题。
Andrew Huberman：
Love it. Well, and you live in a great city for great coffee. We have such good coffee. The original Pete's is just down the street, cheese board, and yeah. Well, I'm so grateful you wrote the book and that you did the experiment. I will seriously consider doing the experiment.中文：喜欢它。嗯，你住在一个适合喝好咖啡的伟大城市。我们有非常好的咖啡。原版的 Pete's 就在街下，奶酪拼盘，是的。嗯，我非常感激你写了这本书，还做了这个实验。我会认真考虑做这个实验。
Michael Pollan：
Give it a try. You learn a lot. And it's just about thinking about your relationship to drugs in general. I mean, they are part of our lives. It's a normal part of human life.中文：试一试吧。你会学到很多东西。而且这只是关于思考你与药物的一般关系。我的意思是，它们是我们生活的一部分。这是人类生活的正常部分。
Andrew Huberman：
Our thinking about drugs has been really contaminated by the drug war. Drugs are not good or bad. I mean, it's all about context. And caffeine is a really great case study. And you learn something about yourself getting off it and then getting back on it. I'm excited. The way you describe it and the fact that you share the belief that it is God's gift to mankind is a reason enough. Michael, thank you so much for coming here today, sharing your knowledge. And for writing all these books, I mean, you have humanized plants in a way that makes people healthier when they pay attention to and act on the information. Your care for humanity is self-evident, and for animals and plants, too. Yeah. You strike me as somebody who really has like the whole picture, and yet you're not just running around saying one love and everyone should drop acid. Thank goodness. I mean, you're obviously a super serious scholar of everything you put your pen to. And when you speak, I learn and people really learn. I know you have a book that you're working on now about the microbiome. Maybe we have you back to talk about that if you're willing. Happy to when it comes out. It's an audio book. It's another short audio book. It'll be out sometime next year. Great. Well, I'd love to have you back around that time. Sounds good.中文：我们对毒品的思考确实被毒品战争污染了。 毒品没有好坏之分。 我的意思是，这一切都与上下文有关。 咖啡因是一个非常好的案例研究。 你会学到一些关于自己摆脱它然后重新开始的东西。 我很兴奋。 你描述它的方式以及你都相信这是上帝给人类的礼物这一事实就足够了。 迈克尔，非常感谢您今天来到这里分享您的知识。 我的意思是，在写所有这些书时，你将植物人性化，使人们在关注信息并采取行动时变得更健康。 您对人类的关怀是不言而喻的，对动物和植物也是如此。 是的。 你给我的印象是一个真正喜欢整个画面的人，但你不只是跑来跑去说一个爱，每个人都应该放弃酸。 谢天谢地。 我的意思是，你显然是一位对你所写的一切都非常认真的学者。 当你说话时，我学到了东西，人们也真正学到了东西。 我知道您正在写一本关于微生物组的书。 如果您愿意的话，也许我们会请您回来讨论这个问题。 出来的时候很高兴。 这是一本有声书。 这是另一本简短的有声读物。 明年某个时候就会出来。 伟大的。 嗯，我很希望你能在那个时候回来。 听起来不错。
120:00 - 123:21
Michael Pollan：
And I know I speak on behalf of millions and millions of people. Thank you for doing what you do. Oh, you're so generous. I'm so glad you dropped those watermelon seeds into the ground. Here we are. Me too. Thank you, Andrew. I appreciate it.中文：我知道我代表了成千上万的人发言。谢谢你做你所做的事情。哦，你真慷慨。我很高兴你把那些西瓜种子种进了地里。我们在这里。我也是。谢谢你，安德鲁。我很感激。
Andrew Huberman：
Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Michael Pollan. To learn more about his work and to find links to his many excellent books, including his most recent book on consciousness, please see the show note caption. If you're learning from and or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel. That's a terrific zero-cost way to support us. In addition, please follow the podcast by clicking the follow button on both Spotify and Apple. And on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five-star review. And you can now leave us comments at both Spotify and Apple. Please also check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode. That's the best way to support this podcast. If you have questions for me or comments about the podcast or guests or topics that you'd like me to consider for the Huberman Lab podcast, please put those in the comments section on YouTube. I do read all the comments. And if you're not already following me on social media, I am Huberman Lab on all social media platforms. So that's Instagram, X, Threads, Facebook, and LinkedIn. And on all those platforms, I discuss science and science-related tools, some of which overlaps with the content of the Huberman Lab podcast, but much of which is distinct from the information on the Huberman Lab podcast. Again, it's Huberman Lab on all social media platforms. And if you haven't already subscribed to our Neural Network newsletter, the Neural Network newsletter is a zero-cost monthly newsletter that includes podcast summaries, as well as what we call protocols in the form of one- to three-page PDFs that cover everything from how to optimize your sleep, how to optimize dopamine, deliberate cold exposure. We have a foundational fitness protocol that covers cardiovascular training and resistance training. All of that is available completely zero cost. You simply go to hubermanlab.com, go to the menu tab in the top right corner, scroll down to newsletter, and enter your email. And I should emphasize that we do not share your email with anybody. Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Michael Pollan. And last but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.中文：感谢您参加今天与迈克尔·波伦的讨论。 要了解有关他的工作的更多信息并找到他的许多优秀书籍的链接，包括他最近关于意识的书籍，请参阅节目注释标题。 如果您正在学习或喜欢此播客，请订阅我们的 YouTube 频道。 这是支持我们的绝佳零成本方式。 此外，请通过单击 Spotify 和 Apple 上的关注按钮来关注播客。 在 Spotify 和 Apple 上，您都可以给我们五星级的评价。 您现在可以在 Spotify 和 Apple 上给我们留下评论。 另请查看今天节目开头和整个节目中提到的赞助商。 这是支持这个播客的最佳方式。 如果您对我有疑问，或者对播客或嘉宾有意见，或者您希望我为 Huberman Lab 播客考虑的主题，请将这些意见放入 YouTube 的评论部分。 我确实阅读了所有评论。 如果您还没有在社交媒体上关注我，我是所有社交媒体平台上的 Huberman Lab。 这就是 Instagram、X、Threads、Facebook 和 LinkedIn。 在所有这些平台上，我讨论科学和与科学相关的工具，其中一些与胡伯曼实验室播客的内容重叠，但其中大部分与胡伯曼实验室播客上的信息不同。 同样，所有社交媒体平台上都是 Huberman Lab。 如果您还没有订阅我们的神经网络时事通讯，神经网络时事通讯是一份零成本的月度时事通讯，其中包括播客摘要，以及我们所说的一到三页 PDF 形式的协议，涵盖从如何优化睡眠、如何优化多巴胺、故意冷暴露等所有内容。 我们有一个基本的健身方案，涵盖心血管训练和阻力训练。 所有这些都是完全零成本可用的。 您只需访问 hubermanlab.com，转到右上角的菜单选项卡，向下滚动到时事通讯，然后输入您的电子邮件即可。 我要强调的是，我们不会与任何人分享您的电子邮件。 再次感谢您参加今天与迈克尔·波伦的讨论。 最后但并非最不重要的一点是，感谢您对科学的兴趣。
Andrew Huberman：
Your heart can tell you a lot about your health. Apple Watch Series 12 measures your heart rate every five seconds with the most accurate heart rate sensing in a wearable. So your Vitals app, now with heart rate variability, can tell you when something is off. And your readiness score can let you know when to rest and when to push. Hear the story in every heartbeat with Apple Watch Series 12. The features described are for wellness purposes only and not for medical use. iPhone 11 or later required. Based on Apple-conducted study of heart rate accuracy, August 2026. Visit apple.com slash applewatchseries12.中文：你的心脏能告诉你很多关于健康的信息。Apple Watch Series 12 每五秒测量一次心率，采用可穿戴设备中最准确的心率传感技术。因此，你的 Vitals 应用程序现在配备了心率变异性功能，可以告诉你何时出现异常。而你的准备度评分可以让你知道何时休息、何时努力。用 Apple Watch Series 12，倾听每一次心跳的故事。所描述的功能仅用于健康管理目的，并非医疗使用。需要 iPhone 11 或更高版本。基于 Apple 于 2026 年 8 月进行的心率准确性研究。请访问 apple.com/applewatchseries12。
References
- 1
- 2同题官方视频｜Huberman Lab
youtube.com
- 3Michael Pollan 官方网站
michaelpollan.com
- 4A World Appears: A Journey into Consciousness｜Penguin Random House
penguinrandomhouse.com
- 5What Is It Like to Be a Bat?｜Thomas Nagel, The Philosophical Review, 1974
philosophy.uconn.edu
- 6
- 7Tuned in: plant roots use sound to locate water｜Oecologia
link.springer.com
- 8Justin Sonnenburg｜斯坦福大学医学院
med.stanford.edu
- 9
- 10Antonio Damasio｜USC Dornsife
dornsife.usc.edu
- 11Mark Solms｜开普敦大学
humanities.uct.ac.za
- 12
- 13Awe, the diminished self, and collective engagement｜JPSP
psycnet.apa.org
- 14Christof Koch｜Allen Institute
alleninstitute.org
- 15Alison Gopnik｜UC Berkeley 心理学系
psychology.berkeley.edu
- 16
- 17
- 18Rick Doblin｜MAPS
maps.org
- 19
This story was produced automatically by a channel. One sentence is all it takes for Neodrop to keep producing for you.