荒郊城堡、百亿播放网红与撕下面具的时代：当代男性为何陷入意义迷惘？｜Reason

先记住三件事

1. 旧社会结构瓦解直接引发了涂尔干式的“社会失范”（Anomie）。 传统工业社区与实体办公室不仅发放下个月的工资，更规定了作息、社交网络与个人身份认同。当这些外部骨架迅速消散，现代人获得了空前自由，却也同时陷入了必须独自寻找生活意义的重负之中，数百万人因无法承担这种真空而彻底从劳动力市场与公共生活中撤退。
2. 去中心化互联网建立起了比旧守门人更冷酷的数据层级。 视频网站与社交媒体曾被许诺为打破阶层门槛的自由乐土，但在实际运转中，算法分发机制无情奖赏对立、冲突与荒诞戏码，惩罚克制、理性与复杂思考。创作者为了维持生存，被迫在明知违背本心的情况下自我异化，最终随时可能被平台无情清退。
3. 羞耻机制的通货膨胀反向催生了无所顾忌的“去抑制化”（Disinhibition）。 公众羞辱必须依赖受害人对道德共同体的认同才能生效。当网络道德审判演变为无差别的毁灭性打击，越来越多的人选择彻底打破道德契约、公开宣布“拒绝感到羞耻”，演变出撕下面具、任由攻击性本我支配的极化新人类。

城堡里的荒诞骗局：钢铁巨头曾孙与“101 位公主”

割草机网红与“坏宝贝”：当算法成为新的严苛守门人

公众羞辱的逆向反噬：从格雷厄姆·莱恩汉到“毫无羞耻感”时代

“羞辱本质上是施羞者与受羞者之间达成的一种心理契约。一旦被羞辱者选择跳出这个契约，公开发誓拒绝感到羞耻，整套羞辱机制就会瞬间瓦解。”3

“我甚至不是当真的”：文化战争中的算法饲料与表演性受害者

“我的朋友们都说我变了，都在指责我滑向了极端内容。最糟糕的事情在于，我甚至根本不是当真的。”3

七百万“退出社会的男性”与自主寻找意义的挑战

人物背景与关键事实

• 乔恩·朗森（Jon Ronson）：英国著名非虚构作家、纪录片导演、编剧与播客制作人。著有《精神病测试》（The Psychopath Test）、《搜索群魔》（Them）、《盯梢山羊的男人》（The Men Who Stare at Goats，后改编为同名好莱坞电影）及《社交网络羞辱纪实》（So You've Been Publicly Shamed）等国际畅销著作，曾与奉俊昊联合编剧电影《玉子》（Okja）。其主持制作的 BBC 播客《Things Fell Apart》聚焦文化战争起源，多次斩获行业大奖。其 2026 年最新调查著作《The Castle》一经出版即登顶英国非虚构畅销榜榜首。4
• 尼克·吉莱斯皮（Nick Gillespie）：美国知名自由意志主义媒体《Reason》资深编辑兼主力播客主持人，前《Reason》杂志主编。长期深耕文化变迁、言论自由、科技政策与个人权利保护领域。1
• 克里斯·马克（Chris Mark）：美国 19 世纪末镀金时代钢铁巨头克莱顿·马克（Clayton Mark）的曾孙。继承家族财富后在康涅狄格州乡村建造仿古哥特式城堡，因涉嫌以虚假真人秀名义诱骗年轻女性进入城堡拍摄引发多方调查。1
• 格雷格·奇瑟姆（Greg Chism）：美国铁锈地带失业工人兼前知名视频创作者。先后开创割草护理 Vlog 与荒诞儿童视频系列《Bad Baby》，创下百亿级播放量神话后因内容合规争议遭遇平台彻底封号。3
• 格雷厄姆·莱恩汉（Graham Linehan）：知名喜剧编剧，英国经典喜剧《IT 狂人》（The IT Crowd）与《神父泰德》（Father Ted）联合主创，曾五次斩获英国电影学院奖（BAFTA）。近年来因性别议题深度卷入社交媒体论战。3
• 安德鲁·戈尔德（Andrew Gold）：英国调查记者、播客《Heretics》（原名 On the Edge）主持人。曾任职于 BBC，后因视频创作遭遇瓶颈转向争议性文化战争议题。3
• 理查德·里夫斯（Richard Reeves）：布鲁金斯学会高级研究员、美国男性与男童研究所（AIBM）创始人，著有《男孩与男人》（Of Boys and Men: Why the Modern Male Is Struggling, Why It Matters, and What to Do About It），系统呼吁社会关注男性的学业与就业危机。1

完整中英双语逐字转录稿

00:00:00

This is the Reason Interview with Nick Gillespie and my guest today is the number one best-selling author in the UK as of this recording right now. Uh it's Jon Ronson, uh the author of The Castle. His latest book, uh which is called uh subtitled Adventures in a World of Unraveling Men, is the author of The Psychopath Test.

中文：这是对 Nick Gillespie 的原因采访，截至目前，我的嘉宾是英国最畅销的作家。呃，是 Jon Ronson ，《城堡》的作者。他的新书名为《解开男人世界的冒险》（ Adventures in a World of Unraveling Men ） ，是《精神病测试》（ The Psychopath Test ）的作者。

His books have been the base He's written a couple movies as well as other books being used as the basis of movies like The Men Who Stare at Goats,

中文：他的书一直是他的基础他写了几部电影以及其他书籍被用作电影的基础，比如《盯着山羊的男人》，

Mhm.

中文：嗯。

etc. He was on the Reason Interview a couple years ago with uh for his the second season of his wonderful podcast Things Fell Apart, which has a new season coming out as well. That'll all be available. Look in the show notes for that, but right now we're talking to John Castle uh John Castle. We're talking to Jon Ronson about his smash-hit number one book, The Castle. Jon Ronson, thanks for talking to Reason.

中文：几年前，他参加了 Reason Interview ，这是他精彩的播客《Things Fell Apart》的第二季，新一季也即将推出。这些都可以使用。看看节目笔记，但现在我们正在和 John Castle 谈话，呃， John Castle。我们正在和 Jon Ronson 谈论他的热门书籍《城堡》。Jon Ronson ，感谢您与 Reason 交谈。

Hi. Very nice to see you again.

中文：很高兴再次见到你。

Uh what does it feel like to have a book go to number one? Is this your first number one or are you just used to that?

中文：呃，把一本书放在第一位是什么感觉？这是你的第一个第一，还是你刚刚习惯了？

Actually, no, no, no. When The Men Who Stare at Goats movie came out, I rode that George Clooney wave to number one for one week.

中文：实际上，不，不，不。当《盯着山羊的男人》电影上映时，我骑着乔治·克鲁尼的波浪一周排名第一。

Okay.

中文：那好吧～

So, that was 2009 and this is the second time. The other side of this is like I was saying this to my wife actually that like success always coincides with an unbelievably [ __ ] difficult schedule.

中文：那是 2009 年，这是第二次。另一方面，就像我对我的妻子说的那样，同样的成功总是与难以置信的[__]艰难的日程安排相吻合。

Oh, yeah.

中文：哦，当然。

So, so I always experience success

中文：所以，我总能体验到成功

That's why I say no to success. Like I need [laughter] my I need my downtime.

中文：这就是为什么我对成功说不。就像我需要[笑]我需要休息一样。

I definitely am feeling the success through a through a fog of tiredness is the answer.

中文：我肯定通过疲惫的迷雾感受到了成功。

Well, let's uh let's start with this um the subtitle. And what we're going to talk about The Castle and who owns The Castle,

中文：好吧，让我们从这个副标题开始。我们将讨论城堡和谁拥有城堡，

Yeah.

中文：没错没错。

etc. in a second, but Adventures in a World of Unraveling Men. What do you What do you mean by Unraveling Men?

中文：等，而是《解开人类世界的冒险》。Unraveling Men 是什么意思？

Well, I was going to say this is a story that crashed into my life unannounced. Like I had no preconceptions. In fact, can I quickly tell her the story because it's just an easy way to kind of ground it. Um I'm I'm Tell me if I'm telling this for too long. Stop me at any point.

中文：嗯，我想说这是一个突然闯入我生活的故事。好像我没有先入之见。事实上，我可以很快告诉她这个故事吗？因为这只是一种简单的方法。呃，如果我说得太久，我会告诉我。随时阻止我。

You know, I already stopped listening, but uh no, please.

中文：你知道，我已经停止听了，但呃，不，拜托。

Okay, I'm asleep. And I wake up and there's a series of texts from my son. And the last text said, "We left that was completely [ __ ] Yeah. We're safe now." Or "It's okay now." And I read all the other texts and it turned out that him and his friends had been invited to a party being held by a stranger that one of them had met on Tinder. They turned up at the guy's house and it is a massive castle.

中文：好吧，我睡着了。当我醒来时，我儿子发了一系列短信。最后一条短信说： “我们离开的时候完全是[__]是的。我们现在安全了。“或者”现在没事了。“我读了所有其他文本，发现他和他的朋友们被邀请参加一个陌生人在 Tinder 上遇到的派对。他们出现在那家伙的房子里，那是一座巨大的城堡。

In the kind of middle of nowhere in Connecticut.

中文：在康涅狄格州的一个偏僻的地方。

Yeah. Well, on a semi-suburban street of otherwise ordinary modest homes. Just ranch house, ranch house. [ __ ] castle, ranch house. Ostentatious even by Gothic castle standards. So, they the gates open and they cross the drawbridge and enter the grand banqueting hall to discover that there's no party. It's a trick. They've been lured there for other reasons. Uh so, the castle owner comes out.

中文：是啊。嗯，在一条半郊区的街道上，原本普通的普通房子。只是牧场房子，牧场房子。[__]城堡，牧场房子。即使按照哥特式城堡的标准也很炫耀。于是，他们打开大门，穿过吊桥，进入盛大的宴会厅，发现没有派对。这是个诡计。他们被引诱到那里是出于其他原因。呃，城堡主人出来了。

Again, tell me when you think I've That's a good cliffhanger and I'll move on to your question. Uh the castle owner comes out and they said, "Sorry, where's the party?" And he said, "Oh, no, I've invited you here for another reason.

中文：再一次，当你认为我是一个很好的悬念时，请告诉我，我会继续讨论你的问题。呃，城堡主人出来了，他们说： “对不起，派对在哪里？“他说， '哦，不，我邀请你来这里还有另一个原因。

I would like you all to take part in my reality show." And so, they said, [laughter] "What's the name of your reality show?" He said, "It's 101 Princesses." They said, "What's the core concept?" He said, "I'm the king. I'm looking for my queen. I have 101 princesses to choose from." Then he said, "Go downstairs to my basement costume room." to the women.

中文：我希望你们都能参加我的真人秀节目。“所以，他们说， [笑声]“你的真人秀叫什么名字？ “他说，”是 101 位公主。“他们说，”核心概念是什么？ “他说，“我是国王。我在找我的女王。我有 101 位公主可供选择。“然后他说，“下楼去我的地下室服装室。”对女人们说。

"Put on princess costumes and come back upstairs for filming." So, they went downstairs, uh put on princess costumes dutifully, came up, a videographer appeared, filming began, but it became pretty clear that this wasn't an actual reality show.

中文：“穿上公主服装，回到楼上拍摄。“于是，他们下楼，尽职尽责地穿上公主服装，走上前来，一个摄影师出现了，拍摄开始了，但很明显，这不是真实的真人秀。

And and [clears throat] as you point out, you know, the guy was kind of like saying, "Oh well, we're going to get on Netflix or we're going to do this." But it's all It seems kind of like a baroque porn set.

中文：正如你所指出的那样，这家伙有点像在说， “哦，好吧，我们要上 Netflix ，或者我们要这么做。“但这一切看起来有点像巴洛克色情片集。

Yeah. They were confident that it would end up on Netflix. Um But I doubt

中文：是的。他们相信它最终会出现在 Netflix 上。嗯，但我怀疑

Maybe if there's a true crime show. We'll get to that later because I But the person you're talking about is a guy named Chris Mark.

中文：也许有真正的犯罪节目。我们稍后会谈到这一点，因为我，但你说的那个人是一个名叫克里斯·马克的人。

Yeah. He's His great grand He got his money because his great grandfather was a Gilded Age steel tycoon. And it did make me smile that like the Mark dynasty's hundred-year journey from steel manufacturing, uh the most tangible products imaginable, to a reality show that almost definitely won't end up on Netflix, feels like a very American story.

中文：是的，他是他的曾祖父，他得到了他的钱，因为他的曾祖父是镀金时代的钢铁大亨。这确实让我微笑，就像马克王朝从钢铁制造到几乎肯定不会在 Netflix 上播出的真人秀的百年历程一样，感觉就像一个非常美国化的故事。

And and Mark Well, you know, uh the great economist Joseph Schumpeter said that, you know, it's three generations from work sleeves to work sleeves. So, [laughter] I don't Well, Chris is, you know, still living off the juice that his great grandfather or whatever did. But, you know, his kids are going to have tougher and tougher time, including his daughter who was in the castle.

中文：还有马克，你知道，呃，伟大的经济学家约瑟夫·熊彼特说过，你知道，从工作袖子到工作袖子是三代人。所以， [笑声]我不知道，克里斯，你知道，仍然依靠他曾祖父的果汁或其他任何东西生活。但是，你知道，他的孩子们会经历越来越艰难的时刻，包括他的女儿在城堡里。

Yeah. Cuz I then went to the castle. I don't think she was there the night that Joe went. But but um they got kicked out after they refused to participate in 101 Princesses. And I, the minute they told me what had happened, went to the castle.

中文：是的，因为我去了城堡我不认为 Joe 去的那天晚上她在那里。但是，呃，他们在拒绝参加 101 位公主后被踢出局。他们告诉我发生了什么事的那一刻，我去了城堡。

"The only thing that would have been better is if your son had been murdered there, right?" Then you would be number one in America as well as the UK. Um but just We'll return to Chris Mark because he He's the His bizarre and sad story is the spine of the book. So, he's the first unraveling man that we meet. Um So, what is What is an

中文：“唯一会更好的是，如果你的儿子在那里被谋杀了，对吧？“那么你将成为美国和英国的头号人物。嗯，但只是我们将回到克里斯马克，因为他是他的奇怪和悲伤的故事是这本书的脊椎。所以，他是我们遇到的第一个解开的人。那么，什么是

unraveling mean? Yeah, exactly. So, with him I thought, okay, here's a man who's trying to be Hugh Hefner at the worst moment in human history to be Hugh Hefner. Uh he's a man out of time. The type of man he is is no longer in vogue.

中文：解开意味着什么？是的，完全正确。所以，我和他一起想，好吧，这是一个试图在人类历史上最糟糕的时刻成为休·海夫纳的人，他就是休·海夫纳。呃，他是个没时间的人。他的那种男人不再流行。

Yeah.

中文：没错没错。

Uh and so he's like lost and flailing around. I was lost and flailing around at the same time for completely different reasons. I'd just got out of hospital. I had major surgery. The nurse Um I was in hospital twice. The first time was because I fell over while arguing with my mother over the telephone uh about whether or not she should go into a home. Right. I was for it, she was against it.

中文：呃，所以他就像迷路了，四处晃悠。由于完全不同的原因，我同时迷失了方向。我刚出院。我做了大手术。那个护士，嗯，我住过两次院。第一次是因为我在电话里和母亲争论是否应该进家门时摔倒了。对，我赞成，她反对

she won that argument.

中文：她赢得了这场争论。

[laughter]

中文：（大笑）

At least that round.

中文：至少是那一轮。

Well, yeah, because I had animated so, you know, I I gesticulated so animatedly I slipped on ice and toppled. I I broke my shoulder, so I went to the hospital and the nurse said, "What happened?" And I said, "I fell over." Didn't want to explain all of that to her. So, she slides something on my wrist and I look down and it says fall risk. And I'm like, "Don't worry, I'm not a fall I'm not a fall risk." But she's gone.

中文：嗯，是的，因为我有动画，所以，你知道，我动画般地做手势，我在冰上滑倒了。我的肩膀骨折了，所以我去了医院，护士说： “怎么了？“我说， ”我摔倒了。“不想向她解释这一切。所以，她在我的手腕上滑了一些东西，我往下看，上面写着跌倒的风险。我说， “别担心，我不是摔倒的，我不是摔倒的风险。“但她已经走了。

But I heard those two words haunted me and I thought, you know, "I'm not a fall risk, I'm a worker." So, I also had this uneasy sense of my place in the world, my purpose. And I thought this is really interesting that our lives, me and the castle owner, are are colliding just when we both have a weird dysfunctional relationship with purpose. And so do an awful lot of men and women um across society.

中文：但我听到这两个词困扰着我，我想，你知道， “我不是一个跌倒的风险，我是一个工人。“所以，我也对自己在这个世界上的地位，我的目标有种不安的感觉。我认为这真的很有趣，我们的生活，我和城堡主人，正在碰撞，就在我们都有一个奇怪的功能失调的关系与目的。社会上很多男人和女人也是如此。

Yeah, and I mean I mean this is more about men because in a in a in a fascinating way and in a deeply reported way as, you know, as one of your signature is um it's it's not about the manosphere per se, but it is about the kind of you were talking about like a loss of purpose or a sense of aimlessness that seems to be widely shared or pervasive among a lot of younger men. Although most of the men you're talking about are a little bit older.

中文：是的，我的意思是，这更多的是关于男人的，因为以一种迷人的方式和深刻报道的方式，因为，你知道，因为你的一个标志是，嗯，它不是关于庄园本身，而是关于你所谈论的那种失去目标或漫无目的的感觉，似乎在许多年轻人中广泛分享或普遍存在。虽然你说的大多数男人都有点年长。

Like they're either like Chris Mark who is what in his 60s or you know your Graham Linehan who we'll talk about in a little bit who's got to be in his 50s.

中文：就像他们要么像 60 多岁的克里斯·马克（ Chris Mark ） ，要么像你认识的格雷厄姆·利内汉（ Graham Linehan ） ，我们稍后会谈到 50 多岁的格雷厄姆·利内汉（ Graham

roughly the same age as me. Greg Chism another style of the book. This is man called Greg Chism. I think I uncovered with Greg Chism the most extraordinary story that is ever been voted on YouTube. Because one of the things I look at in this book is what's filling the gap.

中文：和我差不多大。Greg Chism 是这本书的另一种风格。这个人叫 Greg Chism。我想我和 Greg Chism 一起发现了 YouTube 上有史以来最非凡的故事。因为我在这本书中看到的一件事就是填补空白。

Yeah.

中文：没错没错。

And YouTube came along as this kind of wide open country where a man could thrive through grit and perseverance as a content creator. So a lot of these like aimless men gravitated to and and yeah I wasn't interested in the manosphere. In fact my first rule whenever I start a big project I always think what's the worst version of this story. And for me the worst version of this is the manosphere and incels.

中文：YouTube 作为这样一个开放的国家出现了，作为一个内容创作者，一个人可以通过勇气和毅力茁壮成长。所以很多人喜欢漫无目的的男人，是的，我对庄园不感兴趣。事实上，每当我开始一个大项目时，我的第一条规则总是认为这个故事最糟糕的版本是什么。对我来说，最糟糕的版本是 Manosphere 和 Incels。

I thought if I if I write about them as little as possible. There's a bit about them but really not very much about

中文：我想如果我尽可能少地写关于他们的文章。有一点关于它们，但实际上并不是很多关于

Well and it's more that the manosphere may be filling and manosphere may be filling a void for some young men and or I actually think I mean you're wise to avoid it because in many ways it's kind of more of a media creation than a than a lived reality. But let's talk you know somebody like Chris Mark it's he wants to be Hugh Hefner and you you have a lot of interesting stuff about how even by the end of his life Hugh Hefner was not Hugh Hefner.

中文：好吧，更重要的是，庄园圈可能正在填补，庄园圈可能正在填补一些年轻人的空白，或者我实际上认为你明智地避免它，因为在许多方面，它更像是一种媒体创作，而不是一个活生生的现实。但让我们谈谈你知道像克里斯·马克这样的人，他想成为休·海夫纳，你有很多有趣的东西，甚至在他生命的尽头，休·海夫纳也不是休·海夫纳。

So you know but Mark also unlike somebody like Hugh Hefner who started Playboy in what like 1955 or thereabouts. I remember Playboy and National Review kind of came out around the same time and that's kind of an interesting pairing because they each radically transformed America and kind of publishing, but at least Hefner created something, yeah, you know, and whereas Chris Mark has always been lacking purpose in his life.

中文：所以你知道，但马克也不像休·海夫纳（ Hugh Hefner ）这样的人，他在 1955 年左右创办了《花花公子》。我记得《花花公子》和《国家评论》差不多同时出现，这是一个有趣的搭档，因为它们都彻底改变了美国和出版业，但至少海夫纳创造了一些东西，是的，你知道，而克里斯·马克在他的生活中一直缺乏目标。

Yeah, I mean, the castle, he managed to build an unbelievable castle.

中文：是的，我的意思是，城堡，他设法建造了一座令人难以置信的城堡。

And it and it is you can go online, there's, you know, cuz it's there for, you know, bar mitzvahs and weddings and things like that.

中文：而且你可以上网，有，你知道，因为它在那里，你知道，酒吧 mitzvahs 和婚礼之类的东西。

actually they they couldn't get they couldn't get a permit for weddings.

中文：实际上，他们无法获得婚礼许可。

Oh, so they okay.

中文：哦，所以他们没事。

Yeah, because in Connecticut, you have the the the for for for [laughter] zoning for variance for a business, the it can't be too tall a building. So, it made me laugh that the thing that would have made the weddings most magical, these towers and turrets, were the plans undoing cuz they went over the 35 m whatever, you know, height minimum. So, actually they he built the I I quite his castle was being a little bit like America in Iraq.

中文：是的，因为在康涅狄格州，你有 for for [笑声]区划为企业的差异，它不能太高的建筑物。所以，我笑了，让婚礼最神奇的事情，这些塔楼和炮塔，如果计划撤销，因为它们超过了 35 米，你知道的，最低高度。所以，实际上，他建造了 I I I ，他的城堡有点像美国在伊拉克。

00:10:00

Like he managed to build the castle, but then he didn't know, you know, get out like what to do with it, how to recoup the vast construction costs.

中文：就像他设法建造了城堡，但后来他不知道，你知道，如何处理它，如何收回巨大的建筑成本。

Uh talk a bit about him psychologically, and then we'll leave him and we'll go through some of the other unraveling men that you discuss at length. Um but he, you know, he seemed to suffer from manic depression or bipolar, um and he had been kind of aimless in his life partly because he was the, you know, he he had inherited a lot of wealth. Like he didn't have to do anything. So, he tried to do everything.

中文：呃，从心理上谈谈他，然后我们会离开他，我们会经历一些你详细讨论的其他解开男人。但他，你知道，他似乎患有躁狂抑郁症或躁郁症，嗯，他的一生有点漫无目的，部分原因是他，你知道，他继承了很多财富。好像他什么都不用做似的。所以，他想尽一切办法。

Yeah, he said to me that the second time we met cuz I went to the castle and it was a little awkward. He ended up sending me death threats. I wouldn't sign an NDA. He had two murderers on his payroll called Carlos and Brandon who were going to come and get me if I ever wrote negatively about the castle. Uh but I persevered.

中文：是的，他告诉我，因为我们第二次见面，我去了城堡，这有点尴尬。他最后向我发出了死亡威胁。我不会签署保密协议。他的工资单上有两个凶手，叫卡洛斯和布兰登，如果我写关于城堡的负面消息，他们会来找我。呃，但我坚持了下来。

[laughter]

中文：（大笑）

I I we got through that. And and in fact he apologized for sending me those death threats. And in fact he said if you take Carlos and Brandi out for dinner, I'll Venmo you the money.

中文：我，我，我们度过了难关。事实上，他为向我发送这些死亡威胁而道歉。事实上，他说如果你带卡洛斯和布兰迪出去吃饭，我会给你钱。

Yeah.

中文：没错没错。

Uh but um um oh gosh, where was I going with that? So

中文：呃，但是，呃，哦，天哪，我要带着它去哪里？所以

Well, uh about Chris's kind of psychological stuff.

中文：嗯，呃，关于克里斯的那种心理问题。

yeah. So then I met him again in in Fort Lauderdale a second time. And he said that 101 Princesses coincided with his daughters uh growing up and leaving and leaving home. And he did have purpose. He had he had um he was feeding his daughters. He was educating them. But he had he suffered he said from terrible emptiness in Germany when they left. And so he wanted to fill his castle with women the same age as his

中文：是的，然后我在劳德代尔堡第二次见到他他说， 101 位公主和他的女儿们一起长大，离开和离开家。他的确是有目的的。他在喂女儿吃东西。他在教育他们。但当他们离开德国时，他说他在德国遭受了可怕的空虚。所以他想让他的城堡里充满和他同龄的女人

daughters too and that were sexually available to him.

中文：女儿，他也可以获得性服务。

I mean he wouldn't admit that to me but but I did so much digging. I had to um I and clearly there was a big sexual element.

中文：我的意思是他不会向我承认这一点，但我做了很多挖掘。我不得不嗯，显然有一个很大的性元素。

guess this is a you know, how I mean you know, he is representative of something.

中文：猜这是一个你知道的，我的意思是你知道，他是某事的代表。

Mhm.

中文：嗯。

What is he representative of for you do you think?

中文：你认为他对你的代表性是什么？

Well, I mean Chris Mark is a more ex- extreme example. Like not you know, it um the complexities of luring women to your castle in the post-Me Too age

中文：好吧，我的意思是克里斯·马克是一个更极端的例子。就像你不知道的那样，在后我太大时代将女性引诱到你的城堡的复杂性

Yeah.

中文：没错没错。

doesn't on the surface seem like a very relatable thing.

中文：表面上看起来并不像是一件非常相关的事情。

Right.

中文：好的。

Um I was going to call the book The Impossibility of The Impossibility of Keeping a Harem.

中文：嗯，我打算把这本书叫做《不可能拥有后宫》。

Harem.

中文：後宮

Harem. In Britain we say harem. The impossibility of keeping a harem

中文：后宫。在英国，我们称之为后宫。不可能保持后宫

Yeah.

中文：没错没错。

in the post-Me Too age. Uh but um changed it to The Castle of Lost

中文：在后 Me Too 时代。呃，但是呃，把它改成了失落的城堡

it also you enter that intersects with uh you talk about how in Gen Z it's something like 40% of Gen Z you have a data point in the book. 40% of Gen Z and like 20% of men male boy Gen Z adult Gen Z men um want to be influencers. So there's this bizarre thread that also lives through this where these almost all of them the people you talk about are living through living their lives out in public somehow.

中文：您还可以进入与呃的交叉点，您谈论在 Z 世代中，大约有 40%的 Z 世代在书中有一个数据点。40%的 Z 世代和 20%的男性男孩 Z 世代成年人 Z 世代男性 um 想要成为有影响力的人。因此，有一个奇怪的线索也存在于此，您谈论的几乎所有这些人都以某种方式在公共场合过着自己的生活。

Yes, and and and as indeed they were in the castle, too. There was a TikTok accounts. I don't think it's really there anymore, but it had

中文：是的，事实上，他们也在城堡里。有一个 TikTok 账户。我不认为它真的在那里了，但它有

It's you know, I looked at it not too long ago and I think it was not had not been updated in a while. That's what I was thinking about. And it was his daughter actually appearing in it.

中文：你知道，不久前我看过它，我认为它已经有一段时间没有更新了。我就是这么想的。实际上是他的女儿出现在里面。

think they couldn't get insurance for the castle and I and I think that's why they stopped doing the TikToks because the TikToks had had people doing like circus tricks.

中文：我认为他们无法为城堡购买保险，我和我认为这就是为什么他们停止做抖音的原因，因为抖音让人们喜欢马戏团的把戏。

Right.

中文：好的。

Weird stuff and and so that's why. But it had like 800,000 um followers on on TikTok.

中文：奇怪的东西，这就是为什么。但它在 TikTok 上有大约 80 万名粉丝。

So he's he is un- he is just kind of devoid. Like he's he's a man out of time and he's running out of steam.

中文：所以他就是他--他只是有点空虚。就像他一样，他已经没有时间了，他已经没有动力了。

rustling around his castle. The kind of man that he is is very out of vogue. And it made me think, you know what? His story is an is kind of an outlaw in many ways. But lots of men feel the same kind of thing that he's feeling. And I'm thinking about much more sympathetic men. People who used to derive structure and purpose from factory life and and office life and now all of those old structures are eroding.

中文：在他的城堡周围沙沙作响。他是那种非常不流行的人。这让我想到，你知道吗？他的故事在很多方面都是不法之徒。但很多男人都有同样的感受。我想到的是更富有同情心的男人。过去从工厂生活和办公室生活中衍生出结构和目的的人，现在所有这些旧结构都在被侵蚀。

And as a consequence, people feel unmoored. Durkheim called it anomie when society's rules abruptly change, it turns people haywire.

中文：结果，人们感到无所适从。Durkheim 称之为异常，当社会的规则突然改变时，它会让人们变得混乱。

And it's fascinating. Uh I for me, when I read stories like this and especially somebody like Chris Rock, and you know, I'm in my early 60s, but the idea like the one thing he won't contemplate is changing himself. He will try to rule the world, but he won't just become more interesting. I mean, are any you know, he won't change anything.

中文：这很吸引人。呃，对我来说，当我读到这样的故事时，尤其是像克里斯·洛克这样的人，你知道，我 60 岁出头，但他唯一不会考虑的想法就是改变自己。他会试图统治世界，但他不会变得更有趣。我的意思是，你知道吗，他不会改变任何事情。

And I always think of we are definitely in an age of you know, just in you know, the past 30 or 40 years, rapid transformation of society, of the economy, of culture, of gender roles, and you know, sexual orientation. Everything is up for grabs. And mostly, you know, one way you can look at that is like this is incredibly liberating. You know, but the people that you focus on seem to have trouble to kind of evolve.

中文：我总是认为，我们肯定处在这样一个时代，你知道，就在过去的 30 到 40 年里，社会、经济、文化、性别角色，以及性取向都在快速转变。所有事情都可以重新定义。大体上，你可以这样看，这非常具有解放性。但是，你关注的人似乎在进化方面遇到了困难。

I mean, in many cases when it comes to, for instance, becoming an institution of one, a personal brand on YouTube, it can be very liberating. I mean, I you know, I'm sure like you I hated gatekeepers. I came up Yeah, hanging on people's doors. I was just like awkward lower middle class.

中文：我的意思是，在很多情况下，比如说，成为一个人的机构，即 YouTube 上的个人品牌，这可能非常解放。我的意思是，你知道，我敢肯定，就像你一样，我讨厌守门人。我那时候也是，从人们的门口挂着。我只是像一个尴尬的中下阶层一样。

had they ever done for me? Right? You know, in 1994 or something.

中文：他们曾经为我做过什么吗？对吧？你知道的，比如在 1994 年之类的时间。

Yeah. I mean, in the end I I got through, but it took me years.

中文：是的。我的意思是，最终我熬过来了，但这花了我好几年的时间。

Well, now you're a part of the problem.

中文：好吧，现在你也是问题的一部分了。

Right.

中文：对。

Right?

中文：对吧?

[laughter]

中文：[笑声]

Well, I mean, I don't see myself

中文：嗯，我是说，我看不到自己

You're a number one UK author. You've been consumed or you've been subsumed into the board.

中文：你是英国的头号作家。你已经被吞噬，或者已经被纳入董事会。

Right. Well, if that is part of the problem, give me the problem.

中文：对。如果那是问题的一部分，那就把问题给我。

Yeah, yeah.

中文：嗯，嗯。

[laughter]

中文：[笑声]

But it's so yes, so so I felt exactly the same way you do about gatekeepers. And so there's there is something definitely compelling about living in a post-gatekeeper world. I'm entirely in favor of that. But then when you try it out on YouTube sometimes it works amazingly until it suddenly stops working.

中文：但是是的，所以我对把关人有和你完全一样的感觉。因此，生活在一个后把关人世界确实有其吸引力。我完全赞同这一点。但是，当你在 YouTube 上尝试时，有时它效果惊人，直到突然停止有效。

Right. Well, that's that's a good point to start talking about Greg Chisholm who you mentioned um who became a YouTube star. Explain who he is and then you know, what This is also uh what's Is it the um it's not um the back eye. Uh you know, what but where Dionysius gets destroyed by his the the very women that he you know, exhorts to mania. Right? [clears throat]

中文：对。嗯，这是一个很好的切入点，开始谈谈你提到的格雷格·奇绍姆，他成为了一个 YouTube 明星。解释一下他是谁，然后你知道，这也是……呃，这是什么……呃，不是……呃，后眼的……嗯，你知道，是哪里，戴奥尼修斯被他所鼓励的女性亲手毁灭的，对吧？ [清嗓子]

Right.

中文：对。

Who is Greg Chisholm and why is he important?

中文：Greg Chisholm 是谁，他为什么重要？

yeah, so Greg I mean, this is an I think just an unbelievable story. I ferreted it out. Um Greg comes to a factory town that's completely fallen apart, Granite City, Illinois. He was destined to work in his father's in the factory that his father worked in. But it moved to Mexico. No prospects. Then his life gets even worse. At the age of 17, he collapses unconscious. Has to have multiple open heart surgeries.

中文：是的，所以 Greg，我的意思是，我认为这是一个令人难以置信的故事。我查明了。嗯，Greg 来到一个完全破败的工厂城市，伊利诺伊州的花岗岩市。他原本注定要在他父亲工作的工厂工作。但工厂搬到了墨西哥，没有前途。然后他的生活变得更糟。在 17 岁时，他晕倒了，不省人事，不得不进行多次心脏开放手术。

Ends up owing the health insurance companies $200,000 at 18 in this dying Rust Belt town. Then he gets married. She leaves him with two daughters under the age of two. So this couldn't be worse. But then one day he's on YouTube and he sees a YouTuber called Durianrider, a fruitarian cyclist, uh give a only eats fruit gives a impassioned monologue about, you know, look at me, I'm cycling. I used to be in prison. I lived on the street.

中文：结果他在 18 岁时在这个即将消亡的铁锈地带小镇欠了健康保险公司 20 万美元。然后他结婚了。她离开了他，留下两个不到两岁的女儿。所以情况不能更糟了。但有一天，他在 YouTube 上看到一个叫 Durianrider 的 YouTuber，一个果食骑行者，呃，只吃水果，他热情洋溢地发表了一段独白，说，你看我，我在骑行。我以前入过狱，曾经流落街头。

But look at me now, I'm cycling through Australia. I'm putting on his Australian accent very I want to attempt to that.

中文：但看看我现在，我正在澳大利亚骑行。我正在模仿他的澳大利亚口音，我很想尝试那样做。

Yes, thank you.

中文：是的，谢谢。

Make a YouTube video. Say, "What's your story? You've got a story. What's your story?" And Greg, this was Greg's Damascus moment.

中文：制作一个 YouTube 视频。说：“你的故事是什么？你有故事。你的故事是什么？”而 Greg，这是 Greg 的大马士革时刻。

Right.

中文：对。

So he becomes an adult braces influencer, gets his teeth fixed, takes out a line of credit, that does well. But then while he's doing all of these videos with his adult braces journey, people are commenting, "How come you've got lawnmowers behind you?"

中文：于是他成为了一名成人牙套网红，修好了牙齿，开了一条信用额度，而且做得不错。但是当他在拍摄关于成人牙套旅程的所有视频时，人们评论说：“你背后怎么会有割草机？”

Mhm.

中文：嗯。

And he said, [clears throat] "Bro, I do lawn care." And I said, "Dude, you do lawn care? Do a lawn care vlog." And he's going, "Dude, no one no one wants to see a lawn care vlog."

中文：然后他说，[清了清喉咙] “兄弟，我做草坪护理。” 我说，“伙计，你做草坪护理？做一个草坪护理的 vlog 吧。” 他回答说，“伙计，没有人，没有人想看草坪护理的 vlog。”

Yeah.

中文：是的。

He's going, "Do a lawn care vlog." So he does a day in the life of a lawn care provider and he becomes the lawn care goat like like a met I think maybe the world's first and greatest YouTube lawn care influencer. Goes to a lawn care convention in Kentucky and it's like it's like Rihanna showed up.

中文：他说，‘拍一个草坪护理的 Vlog 吧。’于是他拍了一天草坪护理工作者的生活，他成为了草坪护理领域的大佬，就像我的意思是，我觉得可能是世界上第一个也是最伟大的 YouTube 草坪护理网红。他去了肯塔基的一个草坪护理大会，就像蕾哈娜出席一样引人注目。

Yeah.

中文：是的。

Uh people throwing their lawn care t-shirts at him so he can wear them in his videos. So things are going so well for Greg. And that's just what Well, actually then things get unbelievably better before they fall off a cliff and couldn't get more worse.

中文：有人把他们的草坪护理 T 恤扔给他，这样他就可以在视频里穿。Greg 的情况进展得非常顺利。这只是刚开始，其实之后情况变得难以置信地好，然后才急转直下，坏到无法再糟。

Yeah, why do they get worse?

中文：是啊，为什么它们会变得更糟？

Well, he starts to get his daughters into the videos in a completely nice

中文：好吧，他开始让他的女儿们完全以一种很好的方式参与视频中

Yeah.

中文：是的。

utopian innocent way.

中文：乌托邦般的天真方式

Yeah.

中文：是的。

Sweet girls. Um because one of these videos that he made with his daughters unboxing Barbie cruise ship was never meant to be like a brand. He was just putting them on his personal YouTube channel which nobody watched. But then one day um they do an unboxing Barbie cruise ship video that gets like 10 million views completely randomly. Uh his daughters are very sweet on camera. They're watchable and it's a you know, kids love it.

中文：可爱的女孩们。嗯，因为他和女儿们一起制作的其中一个开箱芭比游轮的视频，从来不是想做一个品牌。他只是把它们发布在自己个人的 YouTube 频道上，而几乎没人看。但有一天，他们做了一个开箱芭比游轮的视频，完全随机地获得了大约一千万的观看次数。嗯，他的女儿们在镜头前非常可爱，值得观看，而且你知道，孩子们会喜欢的。

So then he gets a call from YouTube saying, "This is amazing. Come to We're starting a school, YouTube school. Learn how to make more videos like that." So he does everything that YouTube tells him to do and as a consequence his videos with his daughters get weirder and weirder. Um he's a really What I love about this story is that he's a really good-hearted good person. Yet he and he makes a series of decisions all of which make total sense.

中文：然后他接到 YouTube 的电话，说："这太棒了。来吧，我们要开一所学校，YouTube 学校。学习如何制作更多像这样的影片。" 所以他按照 YouTube 的指示去做了所有事情，结果是他和女儿们拍的视频变得越来越奇怪。嗯，他真的…… 我喜欢这个故事的地方是，他是一个非常善良的人。然而，他做出了一系列的决定，每一个决定都是完全合理的。

00:20:00

Right.

中文：对。

However, like the frog in slowly boiling water, it's getting weirder and weirder and he goes from He had 13 billion views in 2016 and 2017 for the series that he did called Bad Baby where they're all dressed up as babies and that's when things start to go horrifically wrong.

中文：然而，就像在慢慢煮沸的水里的青蛙一样，它变得越来越奇怪，他从“他在 2016 年和 2017 年因为名为《坏宝宝》的系列作品获得了 130 亿次观看量，那些作品中他们都打扮成婴儿”，那时事情开始变得可怕地出错。

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Over 10 weeks, you'll start with a 3-day intensive session in Chicago, continue with six online seminars drawing on Aristotle, Adam Smith, and Ayn Rand, and finish with an in-person capstone presenting your own work. This isn't a coding boot camp, as one investment banker on the advisory panel put it, "Judgment is not going out of style." The next cohort begins October 2nd. Discover the education built for you in the age of AI.

中文：在为期 10 周的课程中，你将从在芝加哥为期三天的密集课程开始，随后参加六个在线研讨会，这些研讨会借鉴了亚里士多德、亚当·斯密和安·兰德的思想，并以一次现场展示你自己作品的顶点课程结束。正如一位投资银行顾问团成员所说，这不是编码训练营，“判断力不会过时。”下一期学员将于 10 月 2 日开始。探索为 AI 时代量身打造的教育。

Visit reliancecollege.org/ai. That's reliancecollege.org/ai, or check the show notes. And now back to the Reason interview.

中文：访问 reliancecollege.org/ai。网址是 reliancecollege.org/ai，或者查看节目说明。现在回到 Reason 的采访。

Again, I mean, one of the things that's fascinating in his story is he's doing He is somebody who evolves. He He's [ __ ] out of luck, out of work, etc. and then he builds something new and then it it explodes. We don't need to go into exactly why, but

中文：再说一次，我的意思是，他的故事中令人着迷的一点是，他在不断发展。他是一个不断进化的人。他碰运气不佳、失业等等，然后他建立了新的东西，然后它爆炸式增长。我们不需要详细说明原因，但

Yeah.

中文：是的。

his

中文：他的

But that's the answer to your gatekeeper question in a way, because YouTube always I don't know if it represented itself, but it certainly got the reputation as being this kind of gatekeeper free utopia. But as soon as [ __ ] hit the fan with with Greg and his videos that they encouraged him to make, a hierarchy suddenly magically manifests and

中文：但在某种程度上，这就是你门卫问题的答案，因为 YouTube 总是——我不知道它是否自我标榜过，但它确实获得了这种无门卫乌托邦的名声。但一旦[__]随着 Greg 和他们鼓励他制作的视频发生了风波，一个等级体系突然神奇地显现出来，并且

Right.

中文：对。

Well, this is always the problem with, you know, with liberation kind of rhetoric, right? Or or liberation movements. Do they want to replace all hierarchies or do they merely want to be the new pharaohs, right? You know, and it's it's unclear. Um and you Yeah, so I mean, that's uh you know, a kind of tension in the book. Let's talk about Graham Linehan, cuz he's another man who is unraveling and he's somebody who you were very friendly with.

中文：嗯，这总是自由解放类言论的问题，对吧？或者解放运动。他们是想取代所有等级制度，还是仅仅想成为新的法老？你知道的，这很不清楚。嗯，你也是。所以，我的意思是，这是书中的一种张力。我们来谈谈格雷厄姆·莱纳汉吧，因为他是另一个正在崩溃的人，而且他是你很熟悉的人。

You talk about how you guys were part of the skeptics movement in uh in the UK or in England uh in Britain. What was that in the '90s mostly?

中文：你谈到了你们是如何在英国或英格兰、在英国参与怀疑论者运动的。那主要是在 90 年代吗？

Or early 2000s, yeah. I joined the movement for purely um solipsistic reasons. I my my first book then came out.

中文：或者说是 2000 年代初，是的。我加入这个运动完全是出于纯粹的自我主义原因。那时我的第一本书刚出版。

Yeah.

中文：是的。

And I was like traipsing around the country trying to get people interested and no one was interested. I did a talk actually for my second book, The Minister Goes. I gave a talk in Birmingham in the UK. Had four people showed up. I joined the Q&A. One of them said, "I don't know why you seem so annoyed with us. We're the ones who came."

中文：我那时候就在全国各地跑来跑去，想让人们感兴趣，但没人感兴趣。实际上我是为我的第二本书《大臣出行》做了一次演讲。我在英国伯明翰做了一个讲座。只有四个人来了。我参加了问答环节，其中一个人说：“我不知道你为什么看起来对我们这么恼火。我们才是来了的人。”

Yeah, that's right. Well, you always hate the people who are in front of you, right? I love when I went to a lot of concerts and events where, you know, the the host or the performer will berate the audience for being there because they're not the people he really wants.

中文：是的，没错。嗯，你总是讨厌那些站在你面前的人，对吧？我喜欢去很多音乐会和活动，你知道的，主持人或表演者会因为观众在场而责骂他们，因为他们并不是他真正想要的人。

I know, right? [laughter]

中文：我知道，对吧？[笑声]

[clears throat]

中文：[清了清喉咙]

Yeah, so so in the midst of this I turned up at this thing called Skeptics in the Pub. And um and it's packed.

中文：是的，所以在这期间，我去了一个叫作“Pub 里的怀疑论者”的活动。嗯，而且那里人满为患。

Yeah.

中文：是的。

And and people and I heard walking people going, "There he is. It's Jonathan Ross." And I thought, "Well, I found my people."

中文：人们，我听到有人走过来说，‘他来了，是乔纳森·罗斯。’我心想，‘好吧，我找到了我的人。’

right. Who are my people? Yeah.

中文：对。我的人是谁？是的。

And I said, "So what? You meet once a week at a pub and you're skeptical?" And they go, "Yeah." And I said, "Isn't that a weird way to live your lives?" They went, "No."

中文：我说，‘那又怎么样？你们每周在酒吧见一次面，你们还怀疑？’他们说，‘是的。’我说，‘这样生活不是很奇怪吗？’他们说，‘不奇怪。’

Yeah.

中文：是的。

And so and and I

中文：所以而且而且我

So and it was fun, right? It was it was a nice community.

中文：所以很有趣，对吧？这是，这是一个很好的社区。

I got some great stories from that. I really enjoyed going. I'm on every It's probably the only time I've ever been a member of a club. I got some great stories from it. I did a I went on a Sylvia Browne psychic cruise to interview her and that's actually thrown off the cruise. I would never have found that story if I hadn't been in Skeptics.

中文：我从中得到了很多很棒的故事。我真的很喜欢去。我几乎参加了每一次。这可能是我唯一一次成为某个俱乐部的成员。我从中得到了很多很棒的故事。我参加过一次西尔维娅·布朗的通灵航海之旅去采访她，实际上那次船上发生了一些意外。如果我不是怀疑论者，我永远不会发现那个故事。

Well, and so Graham Linehan, who's arguably best known as the creator or co-creator of Father Ted, which is

中文：好，所以格雷厄姆·莱内汉，可能最出名的是作为《特德神父》的创作者或联合创作者，这部作品是

Yeah, and The IT Crowd.

中文：是的，还有《IT 狂人》。

And The IT Crowd, both of which I'm more of a fan of The IT Crowd because because I was raised Catholic, I anything with Father in the title is like I can't watch it.

中文：还有《IT 狂人》，我更喜欢《IT 狂人》，因为我是在天主教环境下长大的，任何标题里有‘神父’的东西我都看不了。

It makes me call it a busman's holiday. [laughter] Like you don't know you don't have fun doing the thing that you

中文：这让我称之为‘同行假期’。[笑声] 就像你不知道你做的事情没有乐趣一样

But um, he, I mean, he was a beloved, you know, uh, TV creator, very funny. And then, on The IT Crowd, which is a great show, which is widely available, he had an episode, uh, where the main character is played by Matthew, or not the main, one of the main characters, Matthew Berry,

中文：但是，嗯，他，我是说，他是一个受人喜爱的，你知道的，呃，电视创作者，非常有趣。然后，在《IT 狂人》这部很棒的剧中，这部剧广为人知，他有一集，其中的主要角色之一由马修·贝瑞（Matthew Berry）饰演，

Yeah.

中文：是的。

um, is, you know, ends up dating a trans woman.

中文：嗯，是，你知道的，最终和一位跨性别女性约会。

Yeah.

中文：是的。

So, it's a somebody who was born a man who becomes a woman, but and he doesn't understand that until the very end.

中文：所以，这是一个出生时是男性但后来变成女性的人，不过他直到最后才明白这一点。

She says I'm having a wonderful time.

中文：她说我过得很愉快。

Yeah, she says, "I'm having a wonderful time with you. I have something I need to tell you. I used to be a man."

中文：是的，她说：“我和你在一起过得很愉快。我有件事需要告诉你。我以前是个男人。”

Yeah.

中文：是的。

And he says, "I don't care."

中文：他说：“我不在乎。”

Yeah.

中文：是的。

And what you realize later is that he mishears and thinks she said, "I used to live in Iran."

中文：而你后来意识到的是，他听错了，以为她说的是，“我曾经住在伊朗。”

Iran. Right.

中文：伊朗。对。

The joke, as Graham himself acknowledges, would have been better if if she said, "Oman."

中文：正如格雷厄姆自己承认的那样，如果她说“阿曼”，这个笑话会更好。

Yes.

中文：是的。

Iran.

中文：伊朗

Yes.

中文：是的。

That was a

中文：那是一个

But, it's, you know, it's interesting because you can that that episode, uh, which came out what, in around 2008 or so?

中文：但是，你知道，这很有趣，因为你可以看到那一集，呃，大概是在 2008 年左右播出的那一集？

Yeah, I think so.

中文：是的，我认为是这样。

It it aired without, I mean, it's pretty funny, you can track it down. It it's pulled from the regular release of of The IT Crowd, but it's widely available. And, um, it's really not offensive in any meaningful way.

中文：如果它没有播出，我是说，它很有趣，你可以找到它。它从《IT 狂人》的常规发布中被抽出来，但很容易获得。而且，嗯，它在任何有意义的方面都不冒犯人。

And as Graham Linehan, a couple of people were like, "I don't know about this." He was like, you know, "The joke is on Matthew Berry's character, cuz he's an idiot and the person is very nice and and slugs him and everything." But, then you track how, you know, if Graham Linehan is known for anything now, it is for being a rabid outspoken anti-trans activist, or, you know, Twitter presence.

中文：就像格雷厄姆·莱恩汉那样，有几个人会说，“我不太确定这个。”他则会说，你知道，“笑话是针对马修·贝瑞的角色的，因为他是个白痴，而那个人非常友善，还打了他一顿。”但是，你会发现，如果说格雷厄姆·莱恩汉现在以什么闻名的话，那就是作为一个狂热直言不讳的反跨性别活动家，或者，你知道，一个推特上的声音。

It also has started, by the way, I can't remember for the life of me, cuz my chapter on Graham was twice as long as it ended up being. I I thought it was outstaying its welcome. It was also a very stressful chapter for me to write because of the way that I'd been brought into the story. But, um, the moment he decided to quote-unquote dive into this was when he was recovering in hospital from testicular cancer. He had nothing on.

中文：顺便说一下，它也已经开始了，我真记不起来了，因为我关于格雷厄姆的那一章本来比最后的长度整整长一倍。我觉得它待得太久了。这一章对我来说写起来也非常有压力，因为我进入这个故事的方式。不过，呃，他决定所谓‘投入’进去的时候，是在他因睾丸癌住院康复的时候。他一丝不挂。

So, again, just like me, cuz I should say I went to the castle um because I was just out of hospital and I felt that life was passing me by. I didn't want to be a full person.

中文：所以，再次，就像我一样，因为我应该说我去了城堡，嗯，因为我刚出院，我觉得生活在从我身边流逝。我不想成为一个完整的人。

Even though I knew described the pain just in driving even in like a modern car, you know, through upstate New York and Western Connecticut, it was painful.

中文：尽管我知道，只是开车所描述的那种痛苦，即使是在像现代汽车这样的情况下，在纽约州北部和康涅狄格州西部行驶，也很痛苦。

Absolutely. Yeah, and I turned up at the castle. His guard dog, Cerberus, um

中文：当然。是的，我到了城堡。他的看门狗，三头犬，嗯

[laughter]

中文：[笑声]

named after the monster he had in hell that guards the gates of Hades, lunges me. I kind of try to get away from it, ripped at my surgery scar, let out a shriek like

中文：以他在地狱里的怪物命名，它守卫着哈迪斯的门，向我扑来。我有点想躲开它，被撕扯了我的手术疤痕，发出像...一样的尖叫

So, Ram is like this, too, though. I mean, because just as Chris was an emptiness, he there were multiple issues going on with him, particularly the cancer.

中文：所以，Ram 也是这样的。我的意思是，就像 Chris 一样，他身上也有很多问题，尤其是癌症。

Yeah.

中文：是的。

And and testicular cancer, I mean, do you want to psychologize him and say like is is it if he had had lung cancer, would he not care so much about transsexual elements or is it like where it's his testicles?

中文：还有睾丸癌，我的意思是，你想要去心理化他，问一下如果他得的是肺癌，他会不会不那么在意跨性别元素，还是说问题就在于他的睾丸？

I don't know. That's too I don't know.

中文：我不知道。那也太不知道了。

Yeah.

中文：是的。

I do not know. Um but what I do know is that it was that period of enforced relaxation that clearly he was kind of feeling the same thing that I was in going to the castle, like um or I I presume he was feeling something like that. I think it's no coincidence that it that it started during this moment of enforced relaxation.

中文：我不知道。嗯，但我所知道的是，正是在那段被迫放松的时期，他显然也有些感受到和我去城堡时类似的东西，就像嗯，或者我，我猜他感受到的是类似的东西。我认为这绝非巧合，它是在这段被迫放松的时刻开始的。

it's fascinating because his original responses to people criticizing uh you know, the the particular trans episode of the IT Crowd, he engaged them and was like, "Yeah, you know, some maybe some of the humor was off-color and not as good as it should be, but I didn't mean any harm." And then within a few years really, he is just he's the most outspoken person on Twitter who

中文：这很吸引人，因为他最初对人们批评，你知道的，《IT 狂人》中那个特定的跨性别集的反应，他与他们互动，并且说：“是的，你知道，也许有些幽默不太得体，不像应该的那么好，但我并没有恶意。” 然后几年之内，他真的成为了 Twitter 上最直言不讳的人之一，

And I I really wanted to kind of be in the book that I really wanted to hit was I I'm sure you've noticed a sort of huge wave of disinhibited behavior sweeping the world. Uh of people just like ripping off their faces and just allowing their ids to run wild. And I thought that was a really important thing for me to

中文：我真的很想出现在那本书里，我真的想要触及的是，我相信你已经注意到，一种巨大的放纵行为浪潮正在席卷全球。人们就像撕掉自己的面具一样，让本我自由奔放。我认为这对我来说是一个非常重要的事情。

And do you think is that particularly men or is it just that when men do it, it takes on a particular form?

中文：你认为这是特别针对男性的吗，还是只是当男性这样做时，它会呈现出一种特殊的形式？

It definitely I definitely see it with women, too. In fact, there was that terrible incident at that play park in

中文：我当然也确实在女性身上看到过。事实上，就在那个游乐场发生过那起可怕的事件

Oh, yeah.

中文：哦，是的。

Minnesota.

中文：明尼苏达

When the woman was

中文：当那个女人是

was screaming a racial epithet at

中文：正在对……大喊种族歧视言语

at a little tiny eight-year-old autistic boy. Who really was By the way, the anti-woke brigade saying there's no proof that he was autistic. There's no proof he was eight.

中文：一个小小的八岁自闭症男孩。顺便说一句，那些反觉醒人士说没有证据证明他是自闭症。没有证据证明他八岁。

Well, he self-diagnosed.

中文：嗯，他自己诊断的。

Right. Yeah.

中文：对。是的。

[laughter]

中文：[笑声]

But we did our digging and he is autistic and he was eight years old. And um Yeah, so so she was another example of somebody just rips off her face. And some of this is a is a response to the excesses of what became known as cancel culture, cancel culture, I think. This idea of people hated just walking around feeling scared that they'd say the right thing.

中文：但是我们做了调查，他是自闭症，而且他八岁了。嗯，是的，所以她是另一个例子，有人只是撕掉她的面具。其中一些也是对后来被称为“取消文化”的过度行为的反应，我认为。这种想法是人们讨厌只是走来走去，感到害怕，说出正确的话。

Yeah, we remember like around 2017 when we just after my book I wrote the first book about this topic.

中文：是的，我们记得大约在 2017 年，就在我写完我的书之后，我写了关于这个话题的第一本书。

00:30:00

Yes.

中文：是的。

Um

中文：嗯

So you've been publicly shamed.

中文：所以你已经被公开羞辱了。

Yeah.

中文：是的。

Yeah.

中文：是的。

And people were walking around scared. And that's an untenable thing. I remember saying to people, you know, people would like yell at me when that book came out. Um Public shaming is one of the few weapons of the dispossessed. And I and I and my reply would be like people really hate being told what to do.

中文：人们四处走动，感到害怕。这是无法接受的。我记得对人们说过，你知道吗，当那本书出版时，人们会对我大喊大叫。公共羞辱是少数失去权力者的武器之一。而我的回复会是，人们真的讨厌被告知该做什么。

Right.

中文：对。

Like this isn't going to work.

中文：像这样行不通。

Yeah.

中文：是的。

And clearly

中文：显然

But you always create the monsters that you are seeking to extirpate or something like that, where

中文：但是你总是创造出你试图根除的怪物，或类似的东西，在某处

So exactly. So I think part of the reason is like a pendulum swing back. From people being terrified of being shamed to deciding to become unashamed.

中文：正是如此。我认为部分原因就像摆钟一样摆回来。从人们害怕被羞辱到决定变得无所畏惧。

Oh, you think I am you think I'm a monster. I will show you you know what I really am, which kind of is the worst version of what a critic might say.

中文：哦，你认为我，你认为我是一只怪物。我会向你展示你知道我真正是什么，这在某种程度上是评论家可能会说的最糟糕的版本。

Yeah. At first it's an interesting try like around 2015 2016 people were sort of putting their toe in the water of unashamedness. Max Mosley it's an incredible story I don't know if I've got time to to tell.

中文：是的。一开始这是一次有趣的尝试，大约在 2015、2016 年，人们有点试探性地接触无所顾忌的行为。马克斯·莫斯利的故事令人难以置信，我不知道我是否有时间去讲述。

Please.

中文：请。

Okay. So Max Mosley's in my public shaming bucket and and this definitely gets back to Graham. I'm not avoiding it. Um Max Mosley was the son of Oswald Mosley the fascist leader.

中文：好的。所以马克斯·莫斯利在我的公开羞辱清单里，这绝对又回到了格雷厄姆。我没有回避它。嗯，马克斯·莫斯利是法西斯领袖奥斯瓦尔德·莫斯利的儿子。

Mhm.

中文：嗯。

He had a much better life. He had a much more kind of Ralph Nader type life. He was involved in car safety and so on. Uh but one day

中文：他有一个更好的生活。他过着更像拉尔夫·纳德那种生活。他参与了汽车安全等事务。呃，但有一天

a true Nazi.

中文：一个真正的纳粹。

Right.

中文：对。

Yeah.

中文：是的。

[laughter]

中文：[笑声]

For wanting to joke with bouncing the car only in the military.

中文：为了只在军队里开车调皮地弹跳。

Um so uh he um one day he goes to the newsstand front cover page of the News of the World is fascist leader's son in sick Nazi orgie. [laughter] Uh and he uh and Max and there's a photo grainy photo of Max being whipped by a woman in in German uniform. And so at first of course Max was you know bereft.

中文：嗯，所以啊，他啊，有一天他去报摊，《世界新闻》的头版是法西斯领导人的儿子参加病态纳粹狂欢的报道。[笑声] 嗯，他啊，还有马克斯，有一张模糊的照片，是马克斯被一个穿德国制服的女人鞭打的。起初当然，马克斯感到非常震惊。

Yeah.

中文：是的。

But then he thought, you know what the News of the World has made a terrible error here. The orgie was definitely German army themed but there were no swastikas. So he sues the News of the World forces them to find the evidence of Nazism. There was none.

中文：但后来他想，你知道吗，《世界新闻报》在这里犯了一个严重错误。那场狂欢确实是以德军为主题，但没有纳粹标志。所以他起诉了《世界新闻报》，迫使他们去寻找纳粹主义的证据。但根本没有。

Yeah.

中文：是的。

Wins the case and becomes a sort of hero to to like everyone to the sex positive left. Like people Max Mosley was never a particularly likable guy you know like a son of Oswald Mosley. Uh suddenly becomes like this hero across the board and um uh and he said to me I said to him like how did you do it? Like all of these other people are just collapsing.

中文：赢得官司，并成为性积极左派几乎所有人的某种英雄。像麦克斯·莫斯利那样的人，他从来不是一个特别讨人喜欢的人，你知道的，像奥斯瓦尔德·莫斯利的儿子。呃，突然之间，他成了各方面的英雄，嗯，他对我说，我问他，你是怎么做到的？像其他所有人都在崩溃的时候，你是怎么做到的？

Yeah.

中文：是的。

And he said I need to think about this and he he went off and came back emailed me and said I think I've got it. A shaming is a pact between a shamer and a shamee. And if the shamee steps out of the pact by refusing to feel ashamed, then the whole thing crumbles."

中文：他说我需要考虑这个问题，然后他离开了，又回来说我想我明白了。羞辱是一种羞辱者与被羞辱者之间的契约。如果被羞辱者通过拒绝感到羞愧而打破了这个契约，那么整个事情就会瓦解。

Yeah.

中文：是的。

And I think Max was a very, very early example of of that.

中文：我认为马克斯是这一点的一个非常非常早期的例子。

Yeah. It's it's in an American context and I want to come back to Linehan in the book The Castle. But, you know, Bill Clinton in the late '90s as his sex scandals started to kind of become public and multiply, the conventional wisdom in the media and certainly in D.C. was like, "You have to step down.

中文：是的。这是在美国的背景下，我想回到 Linehan 在《城堡》一书中的内容。但是，你知道，1990 年代末，当比尔·克林顿的性丑闻开始逐渐公开并增多时，媒体上，尤其是在华盛顿特区的普遍看法是，“你必须辞职。”

You know, you should be ashamed of yourself, etc." And Clinton was just kind of like, "Yeah, I'm not going to do that." And he waited everybody out and by the time he left office in early 2001, he was beloved really, even almost by Monica Lewinsky.

中文：你知道，你应该感到羞耻，等等。而克林顿只是有点像‘是的，我不会那样做。’然后他等着大家冷静下来，到他在 2001 年初离开办公室的时候，他真的很受人喜爱，甚至几乎包括莫妮卡·莱温斯基。

Right.

中文：对。

Um and you know, and then that is an early kind of premonition of Donald Trump who is clearly beyond shame. Um and that is both powerful and terrifying.

中文：嗯，你知道，然后那是唐纳德·特朗普的一种早期预感，他显然已经无所顾忌了。嗯，这既强大又可怕。

Yes.

中文：是的。

You know, we're in a world leader and it's obviously it's different in you know, world leaders than in everyday people. But

中文：你知道，我们处在世界领导者之中，显然，这与普通人是不同的。不过

But yes, but it is a like you get it. Like if we overuse shame as a weapon, transgressors are going to become like hospital superbugs.

中文：但是是的，但你明白的。就像如果我们过度使用羞耻作为武器，违法者会变得像医院里的超级细菌一样。

Yeah. And and also it is like, you know, there's one thing I mean at the the the character kind of at the center of your book, as I recall you've been publicly shamed, was the publicist uh what's her Sacco? Yeah, Justine Sacco who really did not deserve to have her life destroyed for what she did. And that happens all the time is that suddenly people are using kind of nuclear weapons to to blow apart trivial offenses.

中文：是的。而且，还有一点，你知道，就像，我的意思是，书中核心的那个角色，如果我没记错的话，你曾经提到过她被公众羞辱过，是那个公关，叫什么 Sacco 来着？对，Justine Sacco，她真的不应该因为她所做的事情而被毁掉她的生活。这种事经常发生，人们突然用类似核武器的方式去摧毁一些微不足道的过错。

And that's what I was focusing on is having publicly shamed. I decided I wanted to write a book about did private individuals being disproportionately punished for some minor transgression. Justine totally fits into that.

中文：而这正是我关注的——公开受到羞辱。我决定我想写一本书，关于普通个人因为一些轻微的过失而受到不成比例的惩罚。贾斯廷完全符合这一点。

But then, you know, to bring it back to let's say Linehan at this moment, you know, his world is unraveling and as he became more and more outspoken about trans issues and being anti-trans, you know, he lost his wife, his family, all of his work dried up because nobody wanted to work with him. And we can, you know, argue whether that's good or bad, but that's just the reality of it. Um

中文：但是，你知道的，把话题拉回到比如说此刻的莱恩汉，他的世界正在崩溃，而且随着他对跨性别问题变得越来越直言不讳，并且持反跨态度，你知道的，他失去了妻子、家人，他的所有工作都消失了，因为没有人愿意和他合作。我们可以争论这是好是坏，但这就是现实。嗯

certainly some people would say it's the way that he expressed his views, which is what they found most difficult. Um yeah, so I think in Graham's case, so this is the reason why I wanted to put him in the book is because it felt like he was a really extraordinary example of unashamedness mutating to the next level of disinhibition.

中文：当然，有些人会说是他表达观点的方式，这就是他们觉得最困难的地方。嗯，是的，所以我认为在格雷厄姆的情况下，这就是我想把他写进书的原因，因为感觉他是无所顾忌的态度进化到下一层次不受约束的一个非常非凡的例子。

Yeah. Of him just deciding to like rip off his face.

中文：是的。他只是决定把自己的脸撕掉。

And is it it's partly a response to the excesses of public shaming.

中文：而且这在某种程度上是对公众羞辱过度行为的回应。

Right. And of wokeness, of what what we're now calling woke one, woke one.

中文：对。以及觉醒意识，关于我们现在称之为觉醒一，觉醒一的东西。

Woke one, yeah. Um and I heard that phrase just the other day. I think we all heard that phrase too.

中文：觉醒的那个，是的。嗯，我就在前几天听到过那个短语。我想我们都听过那个短语。

Yeah, well, when AOC invented it and and wrote off, oh, it was crazy. Like, yeah, that's right, you know.

中文：是啊，好吧，当 AOC 发明它并写下它的时候，哦，那太疯狂了。就像，是的，对，你知道的。

So I think that's part of it. But the other thing I was interested in was, you know, the wider theme in my book is what happens to people's inner lives when structures collapse.

中文：所以我认为这是其中的一部分。但我感兴趣的另一件事是，你知道，我书中的更广泛主题是，当结构崩溃时，人们的内心生活会发生什么。

Right.

中文：对。

And I I I wonder, I kind of postulate in the book as to whether Graham was also suffering from a form of what Durkheim called anomie.

中文：我我我想，我在书中有点假设格雷厄姆是否也在经历杜尔凯姆所说的某种无规范状态。

Yeah.

中文：是的。

Like his life has completely changed. Um like Greg Turkington's factory closing down, the mainstream media, uh you know, his world, the entertainment world, was suddenly criticizing him.

中文：就像他的生活完全改变了一样。嗯，就像 Greg Turkington 的工厂关闭了，主流媒体，呃，你知道的，他的世界，娱乐圈，突然开始批评他。

Yeah.

中文：是的。

And he felt like, you know, cut cut adrift.

中文：他感觉自己，就像，你知道，被切断了，漂泊不定。

Yeah.

中文：是的。

I mean, I would say that he, you know, laid most of the dynamite himself.

中文：我的意思是，我会说他，你知道的，大部分炸药都是他自己放的。

Right.

中文：对。

But nonetheless, that was the situation that he was in. And um and his disinhibited behavior was a kind of response to that. I equated actually, there's a story of it in the book briefly of a young girl called Brandy Bragg whose grab lovely girl girl West Virginia, 15 years old I think, her grandfather wins $300 on the lottery and it ruins them.

中文：但是尽管如此，那就是他所处的情境。嗯，他的放纵行为是一种对这种情况的回应。实际上，我将其等同起来，书中有一个简短的故事，讲的是一个叫布兰迪·布拉格的小女孩，她是一个可爱的女孩，来自西弗吉尼亚，我想她 15 岁，她的祖父在彩票中赢了 300 美元，这毁了他们。

Within a year she's in the back of a car, her chauffeur's driving around smoking crack, bank notes flying out the window. And because nothing means anything anymore. And I equate Grahams insults towards me because I got I I I thought I was brought into it through a mistake of my own. One night in 2019 I was asleep. Again, this is where you should never go to sleep.

中文：一年之内，她坐在车后座上，司机开车时抽着可卡因，钞票从窗户飞出去。因为一切都不再有意义。我把格雷厄姆对我的侮辱等同于自己犯错而被卷入其中。2019 年的某个晚上，我在睡觉。再次提醒，这就是你绝不应该入睡的时刻。

[laughter]

中文：[笑声]

Just before I fell asleep somebody said why does John Ronson still follow you on Twitter? And as I woke up I saw Grahams response which was cuz John Ronson thinks you're all [ __ ] And my my one mistake in this I think was was I tweeted and I really I should I shouldn't have done it. I just tweeted on Graham I I don't think you so I think you've been acting like a bully. And that's when the gates of hell opened and and I stayed silent for years.

中文：就在我快要入睡时，有人说为什么约翰·罗恩森还在推特上关注你？当我醒来时，我看到了格雷厄姆的回应，他说因为约翰·罗恩森认为你们都是[ __ ]。而我在这件事中唯一的错误，我认为是，我发了条推特，我真的不该发。我只是发了条关于格雷厄姆的推特，我觉得你不应该这样，我认为你一直在表现得像个恶霸。就是在那时，地狱之门开启了，而我沉默了多年。

Like eight years pretty much and and and he was like throwing inside like sometimes 50 at 50 a day, probably thousands by now. And I equate that to bank notes flying out of Brandy Bragg's car window. Like it they mean more to me than they do to him I think and nothing means anything anymore in this life so we might as well just rip off his face and just allow that that's

中文：差不多八年了，他有时候一天丢进去大约五十张，现在可能已经有几千了。我把这比作钞票从布兰迪·布拉格的车窗飞出来。我觉得它们对我来说比对他更重要，而在这个世界上什么都不再有意义，所以我们干脆撕掉他的脸，随便让那件事发生吧

I I'm curious if you know one of the things I was thinking about when I was reading this book and particularly cuz I assumed it was going to be more about younger men who you know and you you you talk with Richard Reeves Richard Reeve briefly who wrote a fantastic book called of of boys and men. I've talked to him we have a mutual admiration society.

中文：我很好奇你是否知道我在读这本书时想到的一些事情，特别是因为我以为它会更多地关于年轻男性，你知道的，你和理查德·里维斯（Richard Reeves）短暂交谈过，他写了一本很棒的书，叫做《男孩与男人》。我和他谈过，我们互相欣赏彼此。

And he's really called attention to the ways in which a lot of younger men and boys are falling behind and academically, career-wise, etc. Um but it's this book is not really about them and I'm wondering if in a way the world you're describing is Brandy Bragg. She's an extreme version of it, but compared to our most most of us are parents, but certainly our grandparents or great-grandparents, we are driving around in a limousine.

中文：而且他确实引起了人们对很多年轻男性和男孩在学业、职业等方面落后的关注。嗯，但是这本书实际上并不是关于他们的，我在想，从某种意义上，你所描述的世界是布兰迪·布拉格。她是这种情况的极端版本，但相比于我们大多数人是父母，当然还有我们的祖父母或曾祖父母，我们就像是在坐着豪华轿车四处跑。

Like none of us has to work as hard as our grandparents did. We have all of these material comforts. And the one thing that we don't have is meaning. And you know, and this is the thing that all, you know, the all of the good people fought for over the past 100 years. Like you don't have to believe in God. You don't have to uh you know, be heterosexual or homosexual.

中文：就像我们没有人需要像我们的祖父母那样努力工作一样。我们拥有所有这些物质上的舒适。而我们缺少的唯一东西就是意义。你知道，这是过去一百年所有好人为之奋斗的事情。你不必相信上帝，你也不必，你知道，必须是异性恋或同性恋。

You don't have to be You don't have to work in the whatever job your parents had, etc. And that that lack of meaning, it's it it you know, we need meaning in our lives, but we have to create it ourselves.

中文：你不必……你不必从事你父母曾经做的那种工作，等等。而那种缺乏意义的状态，你知道，我们生活中需要意义，但我们必须自己去创造它。

Yes.

中文：是的。

And we just we have not been educated in a way to do that or we don't know how to do that because those of us who are under, I don't know, you know, maybe 70, were the first humans on Earth where you get to choose what boulder you're going to roll up the hill every day.

中文：而我们只是没有受到那种教育去做那件事，或者我们不知道如何去做，因为我们当中那些不到，我不知道，也许 70 岁的人，是地球上第一批每天可以选择自己要把哪块巨石推上山的人类。

Yeah. Yes, 39% of Americans apparently now identify as content creators. So yeah, this is this huge change. So

中文：是的。是的，显然现在有 39%的美国人认同自己是内容创作者。所以，是的，这是一个巨大的变化。所以

Which that Well, that also then adds something because content is for public consumption.

中文：那个，好吧，那也就增加了一些内容，因为内容是供公众使用的。

Yeah. Yeah.

中文：嗯。嗯。

And the the you know, there's a real question and I think this recurs the interiority, the psychological interiority or complexity of the people you're talking about is is really up for grabs.

中文：你知道的，确实存在一个真正的问题，我认为这反映了你所谈论的人的内心世界、心理复杂性，确实是有待探索的。

00:40:00

Yes. I I just I think that everything you just said, you just put it so beautifully. Um I did speak to Richard Reeves. He he said to me uh I I like him very much.

中文：是的。我我只是我觉得你刚才说的每一件事，你都表达得非常美。嗯，我确实和理查德·里夫斯谈过。他他说我我非常喜欢他。

And like you, he had to leave England in order to have a living.

中文：就像你一样，他不得不离开英格兰去谋生。

Right. [laughter] Right. Um I he he said to me there's 6.7 million men in America. It's much more now. It's like more than 7 million um who aren't only unemployed, they aren't even looking for work. They've just bowed out of society. And he said those are the people you should be you know, these He said these are the words, "Everybody focuses on the men who are lashing out. I'm much more interested in the ones who are shutting down."

中文：对。[笑] 对。嗯，他对我说美国有 670 万男性。现在多得多了。大约有超过 700 万，不仅失业，他们甚至不去找工作。他们只是退出了社会。他说，这些人应该是你关注的，你知道，他说这些话：“每个人都关注那些发泄的男性。我对那些关闭自己的人更感兴趣。”

Right.

中文：对。

And I was very inspired by him saying that and and so I wanted to tell stories about recluses, you know, men and boys who've just like dropped out and what's that doing because you know, for me a day without purpose is unbelievably bleak. So a lifetime without purpose, what's that doing to them and to their loved ones? Um and I and I go down that road a little bit.

中文：我被他说的那句话深深启发了，所以我想讲一些关于隐士的故事，你知道，就是那些突然退出社会的男人和男孩，这会带来什么影响呢？因为对我来说，没有目标的一天是极其黯淡的。那么没有目标的一生，对他们和他们的亲人又会有什么影响呢？嗯，我在这个道路上走了一小段路。

I go It turns out that my Castle of Chris Marks' great-grandfather, Clayton, built a utopian

中文：我去，原来克里斯·马克斯的曾祖父克莱顿建造了一个理想国般的城堡

Right.

中文：对。

worker town which is now full of recluses. In 100 years it's gone from vibrant to useless and and so I I tell

中文：工人镇现在充满了隐士。100 年间，它从充满活力变得毫无用处，所以我我说

And this is in Northwestern Indiana.

中文：这在印第安纳州西北部。

Uh yeah, it's East Chicago, Indiana. Um uh Mark town. It's kind of an incredible place. It's because it was based off of off of an English country village like a Miss Marple mystery type village. Yet it's a that's completely surrounded by plants and factories and and so on. So it's an amazing story actually. Um but it's actually not easy to tell stories about recluses cuz I had exactly the same problem.

中文：嗯，是的，这是印第安纳州的东芝加哥。嗯，呃，马克镇。那是一个相当不可思议的地方。因为它是基于英国乡村村庄建造的，就像密斯·马波尔侦探小说里的那种村庄。然而，它完全被工厂和工厂等设施包围着。所以这实际上是一个很惊人的故事。嗯，但实际上讲隐居者的故事并不容易，因为我遇到了完全相同的问题。

you and you interview the uh the guy who runs the town's museum.

中文：你和你采访了那个管理镇博物馆的家伙。

Yeah.

中文：是的。

know, right? Who is very conflicted.

中文：知道，对吧？谁非常矛盾。

Yeah, he I mean, I don't want to make a big deal out of this. This is a small deal, but I did notice at one point he was like concentrating his his his eye uh not on the billionaires

中文：是啊，我是说，我不想把这件事弄得太大。这是件小事，但我确实注意到有一会儿他好像在集中他的他的他的眼睛，嗯，不是在看亿万富翁

Mhm.

中文：嗯。

who ruined his town

中文：谁毁了他的城镇

Right.

中文：对。

but on some local woman in authority who wouldn't clean up the the rust. So I thought that was an interesting I'd say Paul's a good he's a good guy but I did think that was interesting microcosm of how the culture wars have become like the the the the opium for the people while the billionaires

中文：但有些有权力的当地女性不愿意清理锈迹。所以我觉得那很有趣。我会说保罗是个好人，他是个好人，但我确实觉得那很有趣，这反映了文化战争如何变成了人们的鸦片，而亿万富翁们

Well it's always interesting I was thinking about this cuz for a variety of reasons I was revisiting One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest the Ken Kesey novel you know which was made the Miloš Forman movie from the mid-70s with Jack Nicholson where you know particularly when it was written you know it's a critique of society and somehow that it's it's women who are calling all the shots.

中文：嗯，这总是很有趣，我在想这个问题，因为出于各种原因，我又重温了《飞越杜鹃窝》，凯恩·凯西的小说，你知道，这本小说被改编成了米洛斯·福尔曼在 70 年代中期拍的电影，主演是杰克·尼科尔森，你知道，特别是当它写成的时候，它是一种对社会的批评，而某种程度上，是女性在掌控一切。

You know against the yeah against the vital you know life-affirming statutory rapist McMurphy.

中文：你知道的，反对那个，是的，反对那个充满生命力、肯定生命的法定强奸犯麦克默菲的人。

Oh wow.

中文：哇哦。

And it's kind of like that's the key and that's

中文：而这有点像那就是关键，那就是

In the movie? Does it does it say that?

中文：在电影里？它有说吗？

I don't know in the movie I'm not sure but it's in any case it's kind of fascinating so there are reasons you know women are increasingly you know in charge of elements of society so it's different now than it was in 1962.

中文：我不确定电影里，但无论如何，这有点令人着迷，所以有原因的，你知道，女性越来越多地掌管社会的各个方面，所以现在与 1962 年不同。

Yeah.

中文：是的。

But it's still it's fascinating that that's you know men when they feel displaced it's you know because women have taken over.

中文：但有趣的是，当男人感到被忽视时，就是因为女性占据了主导权。

Yeah. But it's clearly you know

中文：是的。但很显然，你知道的

It's much more complex than that because I I if I have one critique of some of the motifs in your book is the the deindustrialization of America is a half-century more than a half-century long. I I went to grad school in Buffalo and you know some people in in the early 90s and people are like I you know it was great until the factory jobs left yesterday and it was like they left in 1950.

中文：这要复杂得多，因为如果我要对你书中的一些主题提出批评，那就是美国的去工业化已经持续了半个多世纪。我在布法罗上研究生，你知道，一些人在 90 年代初说，你知道，一切都很好，直到昨天工厂工作消失了，而实际上它们是在 1950 年就消失了。

Yeah.

中文：是的。

And you know so it's

中文：你也知道，所以它是

That's a that's a fair point. I guess for me that was like the start of it but also maybe the kind of collapse of the factory towns and the factories it almost becomes like a metaphor for for subsequent collapses.

中文：那是一个合理的观点。我想对我来说，那就像是事情的开始，但也可能是工厂城镇和工厂的某种崩溃，它几乎变成了随后的崩溃的隐喻。

I know I I agree with that and and again that idea of what do you do for purpose when you are suddenly the thing that was dominating your life, the structures, are gone. And you know, it can either be like, "Oh, we're free. We can do whatever we want." or "I have no direction in my life." I want to bring up Andrew Gold who is one of the characters you talk about who's a YouTuber and and a podcaster who has a show I believe it's called Heretics.

中文：我知道，我同意这一点，再次提到当你突然失去主导你生活的那些结构时，你会为了什么而生活这个想法。你知道，这可能会让你觉得，“哦，我们自由了，我们可以做任何我们想做的事”，或者“我的生活没有方向”。我想提到 Andrew Gold，他是你谈到的其中一个人物，是一名 YouTuber 和播客主持人，他有一个节目，我相信叫《Heretics》.

And he is somebody who Yeah, yeah. No, I I've interacted briefly with him. And you talk about how you were going to blurb a book for him and in between the time that you wrote the blurb and when the book was coming out, you felt that his um content had changed in a way that is representative of a larger thing. But he he represents somebody he's he's in his late 30s.

中文：他是这样一个人，是的，是的。不，我只是和他短暂接触过。你提到过你打算为他写一本书的简介，而在你写完简介和书发布之间的这段时间里，你觉得他的内容发生了一些变化，这种变化代表了一个更大的现象。但他，他代表了某种人，他已经三十多岁了。

He's a young man who is finding purpose by engaging in kind of culture war motifs. Explain how he fits into the book or you know, was he re-raveling his world or is he more a symptom of the unraveling?

中文：他是一个通过参与某种文化战争主题来寻找人生意义的年轻人。解释他在书中的定位，或者你知道，他是在重新梳理自己的世界，还是更像是一种世界解体的症状？

I think he's a he's a very intriguing mix of the two actually. I'm really glad you brought him up cuz he says small part of the book but I think it's a really important moment in the book. Um yeah, so again, a bit like Graham and a bit like, you know, the whole castle story, this is a personal story that came to me. Andrew, I'd been a guest on his show what it was called On the Edge I think.

中文：我觉得他其实是两者的一个非常引人入胜的混合体。我真的很高兴你提到他，因为他在书中出现的部分很小，但我觉得这是书中一个非常重要的时刻。嗯，所以，嗯，有点像格雷厄姆，也有点像，你知道的，整个城堡的故事，这是一个发生在我身上的个人故事。安德鲁，我曾做过他节目的嘉宾，节目叫什么来着，我想叫《在边缘》。

Um back then his his titles were things like the BBC's first blind presenter and her lovely dog which got I think 425 views. And then Amanda Knox's surprising favorite Harry Potter book

中文：嗯，那时候他的头衔是像 BBC 的第一位盲人主持人，还有她可爱的狗，我记得大概有 425 次观看。然后是阿曼达·诺克斯令人惊讶的最喜欢的哈利·波特书。

[laughter]

中文：[笑声]

got 69 views. So

中文：获得了 69 次浏览。所以

I'm assuming it was Prisoner of Azkaban.

中文：我猜你说的是《阿兹卡班的囚徒》。

Well, I'm like, "What Oh, I guess it would be. You're right. I guess I guess that's the surprising."

中文：嗯，我就是，‘什么哦，我想应该是吧。你说得对。我想我想那很令人惊讶。’

[laughter]

中文：[笑声]

Um so um but then

中文：嗯，所以嗯，但是然后

Yeah.

中文：是的。

Um you know, he had odd breakout hits like um Charles Manson and Scientology and stuff like that. 300,000 views. But by the time I was I So I blurred his book. And I got to say like I I you know, I'm throwing this out there. People may think I'm an [ __ ] for this. Um By the time, you know, I was like watching his output change dramatically. So it was no longer those videos. It was things like wokeness is the most evil thing you can do.

中文：嗯，你知道，他有一些奇怪的爆红作品，比如查尔斯·曼森和科学教之类的东西。30 万观看次数。但到我……所以我模糊了他的一本书。我得说，我把这个抛出来，人们可能会觉得我为此是个[__]。嗯，到那时，你知道，我看着他的作品变化得很明显。所以不再是那些视频了，而是像‘觉醒主义是你能做的最邪恶的事情’这样的内容。

Or the genetic defects of wokeness. Or civil war is coming. Many of us will die. And these are getting like hundreds of thousands of views. Right.

中文：或者是觉醒的遗传缺陷。或者内战即将来临。我们很多人将会死去。而这些正在获得数十万次的观看量。对吧。

[laughter]

中文：[笑声]

And you know, as I wrote about in say you've been publicly shamed, you know, I I have my definitely have my problems with some of the um uh tactics that the progressive left was doing at that time. Like I thought it was like a really big mistake. But I am not a fan of videos called wokeness is the most evil thing you can do. And also my whole thing is being against that.

中文：你知道，就像我在《你被公开羞辱了》里写的那样，你知道，我确实对进步左派当时采用的一些策略有我的问题。比如我觉得那真的是一个很大的错误。但我并不喜欢那些标题是“觉醒是你能做的最邪恶的事情”的视频。而且我整件事的立场都是反对那种观点的。

Like like I make these shows like things fell apart, which are humanist, non-ideological, curious shows about people. That's that's what I do. So I I was just sitting there thinking, you know, I blurred this guy's book and now the stuff that he does is like the polar opposite of what I do. I'm not a I'm not trying to

中文：就像我制作这些节目一样，比如《事情破裂了》，这些节目是人文的、非意识形态的，对人们充满好奇心的节目。这就是我所做的。所以我当时坐在那里想着，你知道，我模糊了这个人的书，而他所做的东西现在完全和我做的相反。我不是，我不是在尝试

And and it is complicated by the fact that he has talked about how he was trying to follow in your footsteps and people like Louis Theroux and you talk about how you and Louis Theroux kind of came up at the same time in a system that that's what Andrew Andrew Gold want you know, he's a he would be a younger version of you.

中文：而且情况复杂在于，他谈到过自己试图追随你的脚步以及像路易斯·特鲁（Louis Theroux）这样的人，而你则谈到你和路易斯·特鲁差不多同时在那个体系中崭露头角，那就是安德鲁·安德鲁·戈德希望的情况，你知道的，他会是你年轻时的版本。

And I think it it is true. When I look at actually well, let me So so I called him up and I said look Andrew, look I feel very, you know, I sort of you know, I'm going to imagine what I was like on the phone with you like you know,

中文：我认为这是事实。当我真正看看，嗯，让我这样说，我给他打了电话，我说，安德鲁，我觉得很，你知道，我有点，你知道，我会想象当我和你通电话时我的样子，你知道，

[laughter]

中文：[笑声]

like that for 45 minutes. And he said, "No, I completely get it." He said, "My friends have been saying the same thing to me that I I you know, that they think I've changed.

中文：那样持续了 45 分钟。他说，‘不，我完全理解。’他说，‘我的朋友们一直对我说同样的事情，他们觉得我变了。’

Mhm.

中文：嗯。

Um that I've lurched into this extreme content. And he said, "And the worst thing of all is that I don't even mean it."

中文：嗯，我不知不觉地陷入了这种极端内容。他说：“最糟糕的是，我甚至不是认真的。”

Mhm.

中文：嗯。

Um so my blurb was taken off the the jacket. And but that line, I don't even mean it, really stayed with me. So, I I asked if I could interview him for the book to talk about that.

中文：嗯，所以我的简介被从书封上拿掉了。但是那句话，我真的不是那个意思，却一直让我记住。所以，我问他是否可以为这本书接受采访，谈谈那个话题。

Right.

中文：对。

Like his arc, from how did he go from that? Um and and it's definitely true that his that his white maleness,

中文：就像他的弧线，他是怎么从那样发展过来的？嗯，而且他的白人男性特质确实是真的，

Mhm.

中文：嗯。

which would have been a boom at pretty much any other time, suddenly wasn't. It suddenly became a problem for him. Um but also I think what he was doing was taking that and molding the truth into a new kind of um victim narrative that wasn't completely accurate.

中文：在几乎任何其他时候，这本来都会是一次繁荣，但突然之间却不是了。它突然成了他的问题。嗯，但我也认为，他所做的是把它拿来，并将事实塑造成一种新的受害者叙事，这种叙事并不完全准确。

Mhm.

中文：嗯。

I'll give you one example. He said that he went to like 50 or 100 meetings um and every one of them said something along the lines of, "We can't give you a job. You're too much like Louis Theroux." Which he took as um code for white man.

中文：我给你举一个例子。他说他参加了大约 50 到 100 个会议，每一个会议的人都说类似的话：“我们不能给你工作。你太像路易斯·塞鲁了。”他把这理解为对白人的暗示。

Mhm.

中文：嗯。

So, I asked to talk to some of the you know, if he could put me in touch with some of the people who turned him down for being a white man. And the only person he put me in touch with was a producer from Vice. Sent me an email that he'd he'd pitched Vice a story about a woman who throws dolls at women who are who are walking into abortion clinics.

中文：所以，我请求与一些人谈谈，你知道的，如果他能让我联系到那些因为他是白人而拒绝他的人。而他唯一让我联系的人是 Vice 的一位制片人。给我发了一封电子邮件，说他曾向 Vice 推销过一个关于一个女人的故事，这个女人会向走进堕胎诊所的女性扔娃娃。

Mhm.

中文：嗯。

And the Vice journalist replied, "Look, this is a really interesting story, but it feels a bit uncomfortable because it's such a feminine story. Would you be up for producing it

中文：《Vice》的记者回答道：“看，这确实是一个非常有趣的故事，但感觉有点不舒服，因为这是一个非常女性化的故事。你愿意去制作它吗？”

Right.

中文：对。

and having one of our female talent on screen?" And Andy said, "Well, you know, that's kind of reasonable." So, he couldn't really back up the stuff.

中文：“并且让我们的一位女性人才出现在屏幕上？”安迪说，‘嗯，你知道的，这有点合理。’所以，他实际上无法支持那些事情。

Um but he did a course called How to Master YouTube, and the course said the way to master YouTube is to create opposition and conflict.

中文：嗯，但是他上了一门叫做《如何精通 YouTube》的课程，这门课程说掌握 YouTube 的方法是制造对立和冲突。

Right.

中文：对。

So, um that's what he was that's what he was doing. So, I So, yeah, I tell his story. So, it's a bit of both. Like, when you don't really mean it. So, yes, he's making a better living on YouTube now. He's now making money.

中文：所以，嗯，他就是在做那个。所以，我……所以，是的，我讲述了他的故事。所以，这有点两者兼具。就像，当你并不真正认真的时候。所以，是的，他现在在 YouTube 上过得更好了。他现在在赚钱。

00:50:00

Right.

中文：对。

When you get the nuanced idiots like me, he loses money. When you get wokeness is the most evil thing in the world, he makes like a couple of thousand pounds a week or whatever. So, sure.

中文：当你遇到像我这样的细微白痴时，他会亏钱。当你遇到觉醒是世界上最邪恶的东西时，他每周大概能赚几千英镑之类的。所以，当然了。

Do you

中文：你做吗

But But at the same time, he's building his house on stand on stand. If he doesn't even mean it.

中文：但是但是同时，他正在用立场建造他的房子。如果他甚至不是认真的。

Do you feel like, you know, there's to kind of put it in Marxian terms, which I think, you know, makes sense, you know, where there's an economic base that gives rise to a a cultural superstructure, right? This is So, you know, when the economic base if it's industrialization or whatever we want to talk about, that goes away, and then the culture that arises from, you know, that kind of disruption is screwed up.

中文：你是否觉得，你知道，如果用马克思主义的术语来说，我认为，这样说是有道理的，你知道，就是有一个经济基础，它会产生一个文化上层建筑，对吧？所以，你知道，当经济基础，比如说工业化或我们想讨论的任何东西，消失时，然后由这种中断产生的文化就会出现问题。

But is, you know, on the other in the other direction is are things like YouTube, Instagram, Twitter, where you have to, you know, you're pushing your personality or profile out into the public. Are those building are those very strong incentives for people to become more polarized, less nuanced, or is it a way of gaining, you know, an audience that could actually be very interested in in long-form interesting nuanced takes?

中文：但是你知道，另一方面是像 YouTube、Instagram、Twitter 这样的东西，在这些平台上，你必须将你的个性或个人资料推向公众。这些平台是在增强人们变得更极化、缺乏细腻感的强烈动力吗，还是说这是一种获得观众的方式，而这些观众实际上可能对长篇、有趣、细腻的观点很感兴趣？

Well, actually Andrew, um partly because I yelled at him because he brought out a blog post where he said that I'd in taking my name off his book,

中文：嗯，实际上，安德鲁，嗯，部分原因是我对他大喊大叫，因为他发表了一篇博客文章，说我从他的书上撤下了我的名字，

Right.

中文：对。

I'd committed a contemptible act of cancellation. So, I phoned him up and yelled at him.

中文：我犯了一个可鄙的取消行为。所以，我打电话给他并对他大喊大叫。

the worst You're woke. You're part of the worst evil ever.

中文：你真糟糕。你觉醒了。你是有史以来最邪恶的一部分。

So, I said me taking my name off his book wasn't a contemptible act of cancellation. It was because he'd lurched into this extreme content and he should take some personal responsibility rather than just blame everybody else for everything. So, that's what I said and I think I got through to him a bit because he did start to push back against people more in interviews after that.

中文：所以，我说我从他的书上去掉自己的名字并不是一种可鄙的“取消”行为。这是因为他突然陷入了这些极端内容，他应该承担一些个人责任，而不是把所有事情都怪到别人身上。就是这样，我这么说了，我想我有点让他明白了，因为在那之后，他确实在采访中开始更多地反击别人。

So, yeah, if he I I think it's kind of possible that and I'm and if that's the case and if I helped that then I'm delighted because all I want is is people having curious, interesting conversations.

中文：所以，是的，如果他……我，我觉得这有点可能，如果情况是这样，如果我帮了忙，那我很高兴，因为我只希望人们进行好奇、有趣的对话。

And certainly your I mean your work is exquisitely even painfully nuanced and reported and things like that. I mean you have your you know presumptions and things like that, but obviously you're doing well. Do you think it's possible for somebody whether male or female, you know, who you know, are 25 or 30 now?

中文：当然，我的意思是，你的工作精致到甚至有些痛苦的细腻和报道之类的东西。我的意思是，你有你的假设之类的，但显然你做得很好。你认为现在无论是男性还是女性，25 岁或 30 岁的人，有可能做到吗？

Like is that also possible or are we in this world you know, a Hobbesian media world of you know, you got to dress up like a an adult baby or you have to call everybody an Islam or fascist or you're a right-winger or left-winger or something?

中文：就像那也可能吗，还是说我们生活在这个世界里，你知道的，一个霍布斯式的媒体世界，你得像个成年婴儿一样打扮，或者你得称每个人为伊斯兰教徒或法西斯，或者你是右翼分子或左翼分子之类的？

I know people still do get through. I think in interesting ways. There's that I I can think of you know, a few I'm slightly out of my depth here cuz I've I haven't watched that many of them, but ContraPoints I think is an interesting example of somebody who does kind of you know, nuanced interesting stuff often. You know, does you don't always have to

中文：我知道人们仍然能够了解。我认为方式很有趣。有一个我能想到的，你知道，我略微有点力不从心，因为我没看过太多，但我认为 ContraPoints 是一个有趣的例子，说明有人经常做一些细致、有趣的事情。你知道，不是总是必须要这样做。

Seems to have faded a little bit. Although you know, you this for me I mean I never know why my feed like does my feed change because I'm watching different things or or you know, I I'm sure in the old world of print magazines I would do this where I would love a magazine for three or four years and then you realize you've gone through all of the stories it tells and then it starts retelling them. So, you kind of move on.

中文：似乎有点褪色了。虽然你知道，你为我做这个，我是说我从来不知道我的信息流为什么会这样变化，是因为我在看不同的东西吗？或者你知道，我敢肯定在过去的印刷杂志时代，我会这样做，我会喜欢一本杂志三四年，然后你会意识到你已经看完了它讲的所有故事，然后它开始重新讲述这些故事。所以，你就会转向别的东西。

Well, I see so here's my answer to that. So, so right now the two most successful thank goodness non-fiction books in Britain are uh, and Patrick Radden Keefe. And, you know, his book London Falling.

中文：嗯，我明白了，这是我对此的回答。现在，英国两本最成功的非虚构类书籍是，感谢上天，还有帕特里克·拉登·基夫。你知道吗，他的书《伦敦陷落》。

Okay.

中文：好的。

Um, but I don't know in Britain

中文：嗯，但我不知道在英国

know anything. What is London Falling?

中文：知道任何事情。伦敦在衰落吗？

Oh, well, Patrick's like in Britain he's a phenomenon, but he's very successful here, too. He writes for the New Yorker. London Falling actually has some thematic similarities with the castle, with my book. Um, it's about a kid, a Jewish kid in North London, like 19 years old, who was dies mysteriously. Um, he falls or jumps or pushed or is pushed from a very fancy apartment building in West [clears throat] London into the Thames.

中文：哦，好吧，帕特里克在英国是个现象级人物，但他在这里也非常成功。他为《纽约客》写稿。《伦敦陷落》实际上在主题上与我的书《城堡》有一些相似之处。嗯，它讲的是一个孩子，一个住在北伦敦的犹太孩子，大约 19 岁，不明原因地死去了。嗯，他从西[清嗓子]伦敦的一栋非常豪华的公寓楼坠入泰晤士河，不管是自己掉下去的，跳下去的，还是被推下去的。

Um, and when his parents start to investigate like what happened, what they discover was that he was leading a double life where he was telling everybody that he was actually the son of Russian oligarchs. Um, because I think at his school in North London there was like a lot of sons of Russian oligarchs at the school. So, he in this fantasy world recreating himself in this sort of weird way,

中文：嗯，当他的父母开始调查发生了什么事情时，他们发现他过着双重生活，他告诉每个人他实际上是俄罗斯寡头的儿子。嗯，我觉得在他位于北伦敦的学校里，有很多俄罗斯寡头的儿子。所以，他在这个幻想的世界里以一种奇怪的方式重塑自己，

Yeah.

中文：是的。

gets somehow involved in the London underworld,

中文：以某种方式卷入伦敦的黑社会，

Hm.

中文：嗯。

who think he's the son of a Russian oligarch, and that's the story that Patrick tells. But what what me and Patrick have in common is that we both do sort of narrative non-fiction.

中文：他认为自己是俄罗斯寡头的儿子，这就是 Patrick 讲述的故事。但我和 Patrick 的共同之处在于，我们都做某种叙事非虚构作品。

Right.

中文：对。

They're kind of page-turners, they're not polemics, and they're nuanced and thoughtful, and they're the two most as we speak, they're the two non-fiction books that are doing the best in Britain. Which makes me think there's really an appetite for that stuff, both as readers, but also as other adventurers.

中文：它们有点让人一页页读下去，不是争论性的文章，并且内容细腻、深思熟虑，而且它们是我们现在正在谈论的两本，它们是英国非虚构类书籍中表现最好的两本。这让我觉得人们对这种内容真的很感兴趣，无论作为读者，还是作为其他的探险者。

Right. As as I I don't want to say content creators, but producers, right? Of writers or journalists or adventurers and things like that. Um, in the few minutes we have left, uh, so how does the Chris Mark story end up? Because you you go and meet him in Fort Lauderdale. At various points he's in South America with always, you know, kind of with different women who may be the princess, you know, the ultimate princess for him and things like that.

中文：对。因为我不想说内容创作者，而是制作者，对吧？比如作家、记者或探险家之类的人。嗯，在我们剩下的几分钟里，那克里斯·马克的故事是怎么结束的呢？因为你会去劳德代尔堡见他。在不同的时间，他会在南美，与不同的女性在一起，她们可能就是他心目中的公主，终极的公主之类的。

But where how do how do things end with him?

中文：但是事情最终会和他如何结束呢？

Well, to Can I give that one spoiler and then let people read? Okay.

中文：好，我能先剧透那一点，然后让大家自己阅读吗？好吧。

And and I'm I want to say when I got the the galleys for this book, we were not going to talk for like 2 months, but I still I was like, I'll just see if I like it. And then I was obsessed with it. It I I mean, there's you know, this concept of ludic reading where you just start reading something and you're transported into a world and I you know, I spent like 72 hours reading this book.

中文：我想说的是，当我拿到这本书的校样时，我们本来打算有两个月不联系，但我还是想看看自己是否喜欢它。然后我就对它着迷了。我是说，有一种叫做游戏化阅读的概念，你只是开始读某本东西，然后就会被带入一个世界里。我花了大概 72 个小时读这本书。

So, it it it's that kind of you know, very addictive reading. And so, it is a page-turner even if it is like deeply reported and analytical.

中文：所以，它就是那种你知道的，非常让人上瘾的阅读。因此，即使它是深入报道和分析的，它也很吸引人，让人一页接一页地读下去。

Well, I mean, I can't couldn't appreciate that more. Thank you. And so, I'll tell you one spoiler. About a year and a half into me looking into Chris the Castellana, I get a call and it turns out that I'm not the only person investigating him. He's being investigated by several agencies. The FBI, Department of Homeland Security, um

中文：嗯，我是说，我再怎么感激也不为过。谢谢你。所以，我告诉你一个剧透。在我开始调查 Chris the Castellana 大约一年半后，我接到一个电话，结果发现我并不是唯一一个调查他的人。他正被几个机构调查。联邦调查局、国土安全部，嗯

Neither of which should exist, by the way. I just want to say that for the reason viewers out there.

中文：顺便说一句，这两者都不应该存在。我只是想为了在场的观众说明这一点。

Well, actually, let me say one thing. I'm going to say [laughter] something in favor of the Department of Homeland Security right now. So, uh because of me finding myself in this world, I I started to learn a lot about Homeland Security investigations. Um and so, they're like the sort of elite quarter of that department and they they do sex trafficking and drug running and child pornography cases, cross-border crime.

中文：嗯，实际上，让我说一件事。我现在要为国土安全部说点好话（笑）。所以，因为我发现自己处在这个世界里，我开始学习很多关于国土安全调查的内容。嗯，他们就像是那个部门的精英分队，他们处理性交易、毒品走私和儿童色情案件，以及跨境犯罪。

And just around the time that I was, you know, heading towards finishing the book, um the the decree came down that all of these Homeland Security investigators had to be pulled off these serious cases and instead had to like had to assist ICE in their urban roundups. And that you can imagine, I mean, they hated that. You know, they said, you know, we're like homicide cops being pulled off investigations to do jaywalking.

中文：就在我差不多快要完成这本书的时候，你知道的，呃，下达了命令，所有国土安全调查人员都必须撤离这些严重案件，而是必须去协助移民和海关执法局进行城市围捕。你可以想象，他们讨厌这样。你知道的，他们说，我们就像是被叫去处理闯红灯的杀人案警察一样，被迫暂停调查工作。

Um so I think it's important and well, this is the conclusion I came to that in that whole mess of of all of these people who suddenly storm into Minnesota.

中文：嗯，所以我认为这很重要，好吧，这是我得出的结论，在那一团混乱中，所有这些突然涌入明尼苏达的人。

Right.

中文：对。

There's different people with different agendas.

中文：有不同的人有不同的计划。

Yeah.

中文：是的。

Uh and the Homeland Security people, Homeland Security investigators, um I think by and large, I can't

中文：呃，还有国土安全部的人，国土安全部的调查员，嗯，我认为总体上，我不能

Right.

中文：对。

certainly can't speak for all of them, but overwhelmingly

中文：当然不能代表他们所有人，但绝大多数情况下

Yeah.

中文：是的。

don't want to be there.

中文：不想在那里。

Right.

中文：对。

Yeah. Um so so yeah, uh um so I discovered that he's being investigated by all of those people and then the story unravels even further.

中文：是的。嗯，所以所以是的，呃嗯，所以我发现他正在被所有那些人调查，然后事情的故事进一步展开。

Yeah.

中文：是的。

Tell us just briefly about the next season of things fell apart and um you know, the the I think it was the second season that I interviewed about which was about COVID and kind of the way that COVID drove everybody nuts in different ways and you pull out, you know, like one of the things that is great in both seasons is that you kind of find the beginning of an idea that could be decades prior to the story you're talking about, but it just percolates out and you realize like the insanity that we're experiencing at a given moment can be traced back to an earlier

中文：（中文翻译暂缺）

Yeah.

中文：是的。

uh you know, issue and

中文：呃，你知道，问题和

A tiny little thing. And often it's the smallest thing. Like in season 1, um I've got this like 17-year-old or 18-year-old kid who wants to make a showreel uh to impress Hollywood

中文：一个非常小的事情。而且往往是最小的事情。就像在第一季，嗯，我有一个 17 岁或 18 岁的孩子，他想制作一个宣传片来打动好莱坞

Mhm.

中文：嗯。

and that ambition kick-starts the entire Christian evangelist anti-abortion movement. And and so it is these tiny things have these enormous consequences. So season 3, we're doing something a little bit different, I think, but I I hope and think just as good. So I decided I didn't want to do the culture wars anymore. I think I don't have like I hate X, but the one

中文：而这种野心启动了整个基督教传教士反堕胎运动。所以这些微小的事情会产生巨大的后果。在第三季中，我们做了一些有点不同的事情，我想，但我希望并认为同样好。所以我决定不想再参与文化战争了。我想我没有像我讨厌 X 那样的情绪，但唯一的

Well, yeah, Twitter.

中文：嗯，是的，推特。

Okay, yeah.

中文：好吧，是的。

Yeah, the one you know, one arguably positive thing that that came from that was that though it sort of tempered down the culture wars a little bit because the progressive left couldn't coalesce anymore and and you know, overuse their power. They moved to Blue Sky where there isn't the same thing and so it felt like the culture wars not dying, but the culture wars became becoming like less important in our in our lives.

中文：是的，你知道的，那件事可以说有一个积极的方面，那就是虽然它在某种程度上缓和了文化战争，因为进步左派已经无法再团结一致，也无法过度使用他们的权力。他们转向了 Blue Sky，在那里不存在同样的情况，所以感觉上文化战争并没有消失，但文化战争在我们的生活中变得不那么重要了。

Um but and what was taking its place was um David and Goliath stories, individuals declaring war on institutions like Luigi Mangione for instance. So, the new season of Things Fell Apart are eight stories of that. There is one Luigi Mangione? No, annoyingly. I I knew the one I wanted to do. I I I wanted to tell I wanted to do his book group in Hawaii.

中文：嗯，但是取而代之的是，大卫与歌利亚的故事，个人向机构宣战，比如比如路易吉·曼焦内。所以，《事物瓦解》的新一季就是八个这样的故事。有一个路易吉·曼焦内吗？不，令人恼火的是没有。我我知道我想做的那个。我我我想讲，我想做他在夏威夷的读书会。

01:00:00

Yeah.

中文：是的。

Um they they read the Unabomber's manifesto.

中文：嗯，他们读了炸弹客的宣言。

But then a bunch of kind of like uh libertarian autonomist types etc. I mean it was very

中文：但是后来出现了一群有点像自由主义自治者类型的人等等。我的意思是，它非常

Yeah.

中文：是的。

wide range. I mean this is where I suspect that we're in a in an era and this is a good thing, but it's it's going to be difficult to navigate where all of the associations, the ideological and political associations we take for granted don't make sense to people, you know, anymore than I there's a great novel by um Oh jeez, I'm having senior moment now. The the new novel by James Ellroy.

中文：广泛的范围。我的意思是，我怀疑我们正处于一个时代，这是件好事，但要应对将会很困难，因为我们认为理所当然的所有关联、意识形态和政治关联，对人们来说都不再有意义，你知道，我是说，有一本很棒的小说，呃，天哪，我现在有点忘记了。詹姆斯·埃尔罗伊的新小说。

Okay.

中文：好的。

Where it's you know, a lot of it's set in LA in the early 60s and a lot of it revolves around which side were you on in the Spanish Civil War. And I can remember, you know, like who cares now, but back then it mattered and it was obvious if you if you were on this side it meant X all of these other associations and those are just dying, right?

中文：你知道的，很多情节设定在 60 年代初的洛杉矶，很多内容围绕着你在西班牙内战中站在哪一边。我记得，你知道，现在谁在乎，但那时候很重要，而且很明显，如果你站在这一边，就意味着 X 以及所有其他的关联，而这些现在都快消失了，对吧？

Yeah, yeah, that's it. Just say I going to have loved to have done a Luigi Majella story. And that was kind of the inspiration for the series. But we've got eight stories that I think are really great. Really great. They're about David's battling Goliaths in the political arena, but also in people's personal lives. I've got one I've got a mental health one which I absolutely love. I think I think it's one of the best things I've ever done.

中文：是的，是的，就是这样。只要说我本来很想做一个关于路易吉·马杰拉的故事。那也是这个系列的灵感来源。但我们有八个故事，我认为都非常棒，非常棒。它们讲的是大卫在政治领域中的战斗，也包括在个人生活中的斗争。我有一个关于心理健康的故事，我非常喜欢。我认为这是我做过的最好的作品之一。

Fantastic.

中文：太棒了。

Um and I

中文：嗯，我

When is this out?

中文：这个什么时候发布？

Uh January.

中文：呃，一月。

Okay.

中文：好的。

Uh there's a Dodes one as well which I also absolutely love.

中文：呃，还有一个 Dodes 的，我也非常喜欢。

It is always amazing that David versus Goliath stories and of course even invoking that now means that you are objectively pro-Israel and anti-Gaza, right? Uh I mean this is why people talk but David versus Goliath stories which are, you know, Hollywood is probably the greatest, you know, [snorts] recurring example of that. And it, you know, whether you're on the right or the left or anywhere in between, people love that, right?

中文：大卫与歌利亚的故事总是令人惊叹，当然现在提到它也意味着你客观上支持以色列并反对加沙，对吧？呃，我的意思是，这就是人们谈论的原因，但大卫与歌利亚的故事——你知道，好莱坞可能是最伟大的、最反复出现的例子之一。[笑] 不管你是右派、左派，还是介于两者之间的人，人们都喜欢这个，对吧？

Yeah.

中文：是的。

Because yeah and I

中文：因为是的，我

Yeah, absolutely. I And yeah, and in and in obviously in the series sometimes it's hard sometimes you're on the side of the David, sometimes you're on the side of the Goliath. Also there's sometimes the Davids are on the left, sometimes they're on the right, sometimes they're anarchists. So it's a very wide range. I'm really talking about it actually I'm feeling quite excited.

中文：是的，绝对是。我……是的，而且在剧集中，有时候很难分辨，有时候你站在大卫那边，有时你站在歌利亚那边。有时大卫在左边，有时在右边，有时是无政府主义者。所以范围非常广。我实际上真的在谈论这个，我感觉相当兴奋。

exciting. We'll look for that in January but in the meantime the new book by Jon Ronson is The Castle: Adventures in a World of Unraveling Men. It's already a UK bestseller. So this is like your Beatles moment. You know, you're this is Ed Sullivan for you.

中文：令人兴奋。我们会在一月份关注这个，但与此同时，乔恩·朗森的新书是《城堡：在一个解体中的男性世界里的冒险》。它已经成为英国的畅销书。所以这就像你的披头士时刻。你知道，这是为你准备的艾德·沙利文秀。

I well I'm not certain that I I don't know. America's a steeper hill to climb than Britain.

中文：嗯，我不确定，我不知道。美国比英国更难爬的一座陡坡。

It always has been or maybe you'll be Cliff Richard, right? And you'll just [laughter] really want to ever make it big here which is obviously a

中文：它一直都是，或者也许你会成为克里夫·理查德，对吧？然后你会只是[笑]真的想要在这里出名，这显然是一件

Or Robbie Williams my

中文：或者我的罗比·威廉姆斯

Yes. Oh yeah, who you have an interesting story to tell about. But the book is The Castle. It's by Jon Ronson, my guest today. Thanks for watching.

中文：是的。哦，对，你有一个有趣的故事要讲。但这本书是《城堡》。作者是乔恩·朗森，我今天的嘉宾。谢谢观看。