有效利他主义真是末日邪教吗：Reason《Freed Up》第 43 期谈 AI 末日论、得州球场合照与哈桑·皮克

先记住三件事

两位主播与这档节目的位置

几个先弄明白的词

• EA（有效利他主义）：一句话是「用证据和推理找出怎么把善做到最大，然后照着做」。它要求把每个人的利益同等看待，不问受助者是谁、离你多远；由此推出的做法包括向被评估为最有效的慈善机构捐款、按影响力选择职业。9
• GiveWell、Giving What We Can、80,000 Hours：EA 运动早期长出来的三个机构。GiveWell 评估哪家慈善机构每美元救的命最多；Giving What We Can 让人公开承诺捐出收入的一个比例；80,000 Hours 帮人挑「影响力最大的职业」。节目里那句「我有 80,000 小时的话要说」就是拿它开的玩笑。10
• 长期主义（longtermism）：EA 内部最激进的一支，主张未来世代的人和今天的人同等重要，因此防止人类灭绝、保护长远未来应当是最高优先级的议题。9
• 零贴现（zero discounting）：经济学家泰勒·考恩（Tyler Cowen）在《Stubborn Attachments》里的说法——不应该因为「未来人还没出生」就给他们打折。节目里两位主播说，考恩推到最后得出的结论是「那就该最大化经济增长」，而 EA 走到另一个方向去了。
• 效用怪物（utility monster）：功利主义的老难题。如果存在一个每消耗一美元就能产生比任何人更多快乐的东西，那么按这套算法，所有人都该把一切让给它。节目用它来指未来人数多到压倒当下。
• p(doom) 与 doomer：AI 圈的黑话，指「AI 毁灭人类的概率」，「doomer」是相信这个概率不容忽视的人。两位主播口中的「末日论者中的末日论者」，说的就是 EA 里这一支。
• H-1B：美国给专业技术外籍员工的临时工作签证。Bo French 那条贴文把球场上的南亚裔学生与 H-1B、移民混为一谈，节目专门反驳了这一点。
• DSA（美国民主社会主义者）：Claire Valdez 所属的左翼组织，与党内主流建制派关系紧张。
• Novig：美国一家体育预测市场公司。斯威尼那条引发争议的广告就是给它做的，她本人还是公司的「战略伙伴与股东」。

EA 是什么：从买蚊帐到把善算出来（00:00–07:30）

1972 年那篇论文：池塘里的孩子与协和飞机（07:30–16:00）

未来人的效用、预防原则与《善地》（16:00–21:20）

国防部那条贴文：AI 末日论怎么变成政治靶子（21:20–32:55）

悉尼·斯威尼：一支广告和一群站出来反对的运动员（32:55–37:10）

得州球场合照：一场「我们赢了，你为什么不高兴」的争吵（37:10–52:24）

Claire Valdez 与「祖上的那场战争」（52:24–1:00:30）

哈桑·皮克：「美国比基地组织更恐怖」（1:00:30–1:07:43）

重看《Frasier》：情境喜剧为什么会跑偏（1:07:43–1:22:38）

这一期之外：被争论的那些原始材料

• EA 被点名：Axios 9 月 15 日的报道把这一周的时间线串了起来——特朗普称 AI 恐惧是「和通俄门同一级别的骗局」，国防部 X 账号发「Americanism, not effective altruism」，副部长 Emil Michael 说 EA 来自「相当反乌托邦的深层意识形态」，David Sacks 提出「末日产业复合体」。报道还给了两个背景数字：与 EA 相关的 Open Philanthropy（现名 Coefficient Giving）据报在 2017 年向 OpenAI 捐过 3000 万美元；FTX 创始人萨姆·班克曼-弗里德在被判欺诈前是 EA 的旗手。4
• 南北战争后的处置：节目说美国「只为战争罪处决过一个南方人」，那个人管的是战俘营；两位主播自己也不确定细节，原话打了折扣。这一段可以对着逐字稿核对。1
• 那条球场合照：得州论坛报的报道里有完整链条——视频来自得州大学体育官方账号当晚发布的 17 秒竖屏片段，弗伦奇的帖文是它的截图；被拍到的学生之一 Dhairya Gupta 是入籍公民，他说「我看那张照片，看不出有什么问题」；得州大学系统董事会主席 Kevin Eltife 与校长 Jim Davis 随后公开发声，说「他们都是 Longhorn」。报道同时给了招生构成：亚裔本科生约占 26%（十年前约 20%），白人约 29%（十年前 44%）；2025—2026 学年国际学生约占本科生 4%。12
• 他之前说过什么：CBS 奥斯汀把弗伦奇这一轮的两条帖文原文都列了出来，并说明这不是他第一次惹事——去年夏天他因为一条问「犹太人和穆斯林哪个威胁更大」的投票被副州长要求辞去县党主席职务；这一次，参议员约翰·科尼恩说这是「不宽容与种族主义」，州众议院议长 Dustin Burrows 让他删帖。14
• 那条广告：卫报的报道把时间、公司和反弹都写清楚了——广告为体育预测市场公司 Novig 而拍，斯威尼以「战略伙伴与股东」身份加入；站出来批评的包括四枚奥运金牌得主阿里亚尔内·蒂特姆斯、欧洲冠军艾米·亨特和世界冠军拳手斯凯·尼科尔森。11
• 那条墨西哥帖文：Valdez 的原帖就在她的竞选账号上，节目引用的句子可以逐字核对。18
• 那段访谈：The Hill 的报道完整复述了问答，并给出采访者、播出平台与后续反应，包括皮克本人当天在 X 上的两条回应。19

完整中英双语逐字转录稿

本逐字稿由本期官方音频（1 小时 22 分 38 秒）自动转写、机器翻译并逐段对齐生成，按讲话人分段，每题一段先英文原文、后中文译文，时间轴每 10 分钟标注一次。除两处技术性处理外，文字未作加工、未删减：（一）识别器在若干无语音的音频间隙产生了与本节目无关的幻听文本（如「Thank you for watching」），共 5 处，已删除；（二）同一讲话人连续发言的片段做了合并。讲话人归属由声纹自动判定，两位主播音色接近且频繁抢话、互相接句，个别段落的归属可能有误差；专名与个别字词也可能存在识别误差。123

00:00 - 10:00

Okay, hey, we got the thumbs up. We just had a lot of funny, great things that we weren't recording for yet. We're saving that for the bonus podcast that goes to our exclusive members. Our exclusive, exclusive members. Yes. How much do they got to pay for that? A pittance, you know? A pittance. But something to let me know that, you know. That they care. That they care, just a little bit.

中文：好的，嘿，我们得到了认可。我们刚刚经历了很多有趣、很棒的事情，但当时还没有录下来。我们把那些内容留到给我们独家会员的额外播客里。我们独一无二的、独家会员。是的。他们得为此付多少钱？一点点，知道吗？一点点。但至少让我们知道，他们在乎。只是稍微在乎一点。

That someone cares. Yeah. Someone cares. I care. Oh, okay. That's enough. That's enough for you. Okay, so we are the select few who get to hear the deep cuts. We're each other's Patreon subscribers. Okay, let's, we gotta say some real words so that this doesn't get nuked in YouTube. Effective altruism. That is something being debated. Oh man, we're shooting at the top of the charts right now.

中文：有人在乎。是的。有人在乎。我在乎。哦，好吧。够了。对你来说够了。好吧，所以我们是为数不多能听到深度作品的人。我们彼此是对方的 Patreon 订阅者。好吧，我们得说一些真实的话，这样 YouTube 才不会删除这个视频。有效利他主义。这是一个正在被讨论的事情。哦，天啊，我们现在正射向排行榜顶端。

That's something being, okay, everybody, we're gonna talk about Hasan Piker. We're gonna talk about Sydney Sweeney. Sydney Sweeney, Sydney Sweeney, Sydney Sweeney, Sydney Sweeney. Stop ruining women's sports. Stop, no, continue ruining women's sports. We'll get to that. I wanna start with effective altruism. Yes, please. Because we got a lot to say about this.

中文：那是某种存在，好吧，大家，我们要谈谈哈桑·派克。我们要谈谈悉尼·斯威尼。悉尼·斯威尼，悉尼·斯威尼，悉尼·斯威尼，悉尼·斯威尼。别再破坏女子运动了。不要，继续破坏女子运动。我们稍后会谈到这个。我想从有效利他主义开始。是的，请。因为我们对此有很多要说的。

We do. I have 80,000 hours of things to say. Oh my God. So these people, okay, we gotta do a little explainer

中文：我们会。我有八万小时的话要说。天哪。所以这些人，好吧，我们得做一个小小的解释

for people listening who are like, what is that? So it's a cult is what it is. No, effective altruism is actually a movement I have had some familiarity with. It's kind of known to libertarian people have some interest in it. It's a movement of people who start out saying that let's think about how charitable giving, right, could be harnessed to do the most good. So they had, right, criticisms of like non-profit groups that take a lot of donations and then don't do anything. Like why don't we just buy mosquito nets for people in Africa, right? Or just give them cash directly.

中文：对于那些听的人会想，这是什么？所以说它就是一个邪教吗？不，实际上有效利他主义是一个运动，我对此有一些了解。它在一些自由主义者中比较有名，也有人对此感兴趣。这是一个人们开始时的理念，认为我们应该思考如何让慈善捐赠发挥最大的效益。所以他们有一些对非营利组织的批评，比如那些接受了大量捐款却没有实际行动的组织。比如，为什么我们不直接为非洲的人购买蚊帐呢？或者直接给他们现金。

Give cash, they're big on give cash directly to people who need it rather than try to micromanage, rather than try to have a government program to set up a food depository, why don't you just send the cash to people who need it, they can figure it out. Yeah, so we can, I mean, we can delve into this more if we want because I actually went back and read the OG Peter Singer essay that kind of inspired effective altruism. But the elevator pitch for effective altruism is that you should do the most good with each dollar that you spend. And so we should rigorously evaluate charitable giving and give to the charities that save the most lives, basically.

中文：直接给现金，他们非常重视直接把现金给需要的人，而不是试图事无巨细地管理，也不是试图设立政府项目来建立一个食品储存库，为什么不直接把现金发给需要的人，他们可以自己解决。是的，所以我们可以，我的意思是，如果我们愿意的话我们可以深入探讨这个话题，因为我实际上回去读了最初的彼得·辛格的文章，这篇文章在某种程度上启发了有效利他主义。但有效利他主义的电梯演讲就是，你应该用每一美元做最大善事。因此，我们应该严格评估慈善捐赠，并捐给那些能救最多生命的慈善机构，基本上就是这样。

So this is all good stuff that I would generally agree with. A lot of libertarian-minded people have agreed with. There's been some overlap in our communities. You know, it's not anti-market in any way. It's almost pro-market. It can be. It can be very pro-market. Responsive to the market. So, all good. But right now the reason we're talking about them is that the effective altruists have emerged as the main opponents of AI. They are the... Doomerist of the doomers to the extent that like some of them I kid you not call for like bombing the data centers and nuking rogue AI research laboratories, you know, arrest and execute Sam Altman and Dario Amadei and all the rest. Right, a police state for AI researchers. And I want to be like, why would they emerge as the most unblinkered, insane, Luddite, Well, right now there's only 8 billion people on earth, but one day there could be billions, the billions to come. They care about future lives, people who don't exist yet, but they have, they have worth in their moral calculus. They're very, they're very math based people. They're like, we're just doing calculations and this will say whatever saves the most lives. And they think that future, the existence of future people is, even if... AI has like a very small chance of killing all people and then preventing others from being born. Because there's so many people to be born to exist in the future, even a small chance. It's harms are exponential, yeah. Right. The harm to someone who's supposed to be born 10 million years from now is, yes, is exponential. Even like a 1% chance because of... You know, the way math works. Mm-hmm. Uh, so that, so they're, by their calculations, they're Luddites. Right. It's, and that's when I say it's a cult. Yeah, it's a mix. Because that's a cult-like view. Yeah, it's a, it's a mixture of, I guess, long-termism is, you know, thinking about Right. the long-term consequences of things we do today, right? Right. Like 10,000 years in the future, whatever. Right. And also this idea of, yeah, I guess, call it, Tyler Cowen in his book Stubborn Attachments calls it like zero discounting, right? So that you should value the lives of future humans the same as you would people today.

中文：所以这些都是我普遍同意的好东西。 许多具有自由意志主义思想的人都同意这一点。 我们的社区存在一些重叠。 你知道，这绝不是反市场的。 这几乎是亲市场的。 可以的。 它可能非常有利于市场。 响应市场。 所以，一切都好。 但现在我们谈论他们的原因是有效的利他主义者已经成为人工智能的主要反对者。 他们是……厄运主义者中的厄运主义者，就像他们中的一些人一样，我骗你，你不会要求他们轰炸数据中心和用核武器攻击流氓人工智能研究实验室，你知道，逮捕并处决萨姆·奥尔特曼和达里奥·阿马迪以及其他所有人。 是的，人工智能研究人员的警察国家。 我想问，为什么他们会成为最不眨眼、最疯狂的勒德分子，嗯，现在地球上只有 80 亿人，但有一天可能会有数十亿，未来数十亿。 他们关心未来的生活，关心那些尚不存在但已经存在的人，他们在道德计算上是有价值的。 他们是非常非常有数学基础的人。 他们就像，我们只是在做计算，这会说什么可以挽救最多的生命。 他们认为未来，未来人的存在，即使……人工智能有很小的机会杀死所有人，然后阻止其他人出生。 因为未来有很多人会出生并存在，哪怕是很小的机会。 它的危害是指数级的，是的。 正确的。 是的，对于一千万年后出生的人来说，所受到的伤害是指数级的。 即使只有 1% 的机会，因为……你知道，数学的运作方式。 嗯嗯。 呃，所以，所以，根据他们的计算，他们是勒德分子。 正确的。 是的，就在那时我说这是一个邪教。 是的，这是一个混合体。 因为那是一种类似邪教的观点。 是的，这是一个，我想，长期主义的混合体，你知道，对正确的思考。 我们今天所做的事情的长期后果，对吗？ 正确的。 就像未来一万年一样，无论如何。 正确的。 还有这个想法，是的，我想，泰勒·考恩在他的《顽固的附件》一书中称其为零折扣，对吗？ 因此，您应该像重视今天的人一样重视未来人类的生命。

Yeah. Right? And his conclusion in that book is, okay, so then what we want to do is maximize economic growth. Welcome to the episode.

中文：是啊，对吧？而他在那本书中的结论是，好吧，那么我们想要做的就是最大化经济增长。欢迎收听本期节目。

Right. But they're merging this long-termism with a kind of precautionary principle. If there's some small chance of a catastrophic risk that you can't mitigate against, well then the catastrophic risk has to be eliminated. Over time, the catastrophic risk matters, even if small, matters so much to the people in the future.

中文：对。但是他们将这种长期主义与某种预防原则结合起来。如果存在某种无法缓解的小概率灾难风险，那么这个灾难风险就必须被消除。随着时间的推移，即使是小的灾难风险，对未来的人们来说也非常重要。

Right. Yeah. Where it doesn't matter very much to us. Right. So it's really...

中文：对。是的。对我们来说不太重要。对。所以这真的是…

Take it to its logical conclusions and then they're just like Bond villains. Like, we will sacrifice ze millions for ze billions and ze trillions. Or like Ozymandias from Watchmen or something. Yeah. It's villainous. Yeah, it's funny because, yeah, they're almost like the perfect horror movie cult. Yeah, Thanos. Where they, well, but they like, you know, you like code of the small town and everyone is like

中文：把它推到逻辑的极致，然后他们就像邦德片里的反派。比如，我们会为了数十亿数万亿而牺牲数百万。或者像《守望者》里的奥赛曼迪亚斯之类的角色。是的，很邪恶。是的，很有趣，因为，他们几乎像完美的恐怖电影中的邪教角色。是的，灭霸。虽然，他们喜欢，你知道，就像小镇的规则，每个人都像

smiling and wearing, you know, flowery white dresses. It's like, yes, come, we are all part of the same family. And then it turns out there's some like blood sacrifice going on. It's interesting because you've seen some of the EAs kind of push back on what they describe as like stereotyping of their movement or, you know, nut picking, I guess, is the term you pick like some of the most extreme and weird EAs to say. They came up with that term, didn't they? Probably. Um, the most extreme and weird EA's saying we have to, you know, kill all the AI researchers

中文：微笑着穿着，你知道的，花朵白色连衣裙。就像，是的，来吧，我们都是同一个家庭的一部分。然后结果却是有一些血祭活动。这很有趣，因为你看到一些有效利他主义者有点反对他们描述的那种对他们运动的刻板印象，或者，你知道，挑毛病，我想，这就是你选的术语，比如一些最极端和奇怪的有效利他主义者。他们创造了这个术语，不是吗？可能吧。嗯，最极端和奇怪的有效利他主义者说我们必须，你知道，杀死所有的人工智能研究人员

and imprison them and say, you know, oh, they're not representative of our movement. You're just picking out extremists. And I have a little bit of sympathy with that as- Because it gets done to us. Yeah. Because what's happening to the EA's right now has been done to libertarianism. Right.

中文：并监禁他们并说，你知道，哦，他们不代表我们的运动。你只是在挑选极端分子。我对此有一点同情——因为这种事也发生在我们身上。是的。因为现在发生在 EA 身上的事情也曾发生在自由意志主义上。对。

Where it's like, oh, this, you know, a relatively simple premise. Christian Britschgi is not a representative of our movement. Right. He's a sad, Pathetic. Reformed rodeo clown. Right.

中文：就是那种，哦，这，你知道，一个相对简单的前提。Christian Britschgi 不是我们运动的代表。对的。他是一个可悲、可怜的改革派马戏小丑。对的。

He's a shell of a man, you know, he's weird, he's gross, no one likes him or wants to be around him. He's covered with fire ant bites. Mauled by fire ants, writhing around in his own filth. Yeah, but I only clean up just a little bit to do this podcast. Yeah, yeah. No, but it's funny that they're trying to, you know, avoid that criticism because I went back and read, so the kind of the origin of effective altruism is in this Peter Singer essay. Peter Singer is a utilitarian philosopher, Australian. Don't let that color your judgment too much. Crikey! Yeah. That's an ugly stereotype. Yeah. Oh. But so he wrote this essay in the 1970s. Yeah. At the time, what he's responding to was there was a, this is like the war between Pakistan

中文：你知道，他已经是个行尸走肉了，他很奇怪，很恶心，没有人喜欢他，也没有人想和他在一起。他全身都是火蚁咬的伤口。被火蚁袭击，在自己的污秽中扭动。是的，但我只是稍微清理了一下来做这个播客。是的，是的。不，但有趣的是，他们试图避免那种批评，因为我回去读了资料，所以有效利他主义的起源可以追溯到彼得·辛格的这篇文章。彼得·辛格是一位功利主义哲学家，澳大利亚人。别让这影响你的判断。天啊！是啊，那是个丑陋的刻板印象。啊。1970 年代他写了这篇文章。是的，当时，他回应的是，巴基斯坦之间的战争之类的……

and what would become Bangladesh at the time. I thought you were saying between kangaroos and wallabies.

中文：当时就是后来成为孟加拉国的地方。我还以为你在说袋鼠和小袋鼠之间的事。

This Australia phobia, outback-a-phobia, yeah, um, struth, mate. But, yeah, so there's this war going on between Pakistan and what will become Bangladesh, creates this huge refugee crisis, and he makes this point in this essay, he's like, look, the British government has given 10 million dollars or whatever pounds to this, you know, Whatever that is. To alleviate the suffering. Whatever happened there.

中文：这种澳大利亚恐惧症，乡下恐惧症，是的，嗯，天啊，伙计。不过，是的，所以巴基斯坦和将成为孟加拉国的地区之间发生了这场战争，引发了巨大的难民危机，他在这篇文章中提出了这个观点，他说，看，英国政府已经给了 1000 万美元或者不管多少英镑用于这个，你知道，那个什么东西，用来减轻那里的苦难。到底发生了什么。

Yeah, whatever happened there. I'll tell you what happened there.

中文：是的，不管那里发生了什么。我来告诉你那里发生了什么。

You cut Sopranos references already. Little Sopranos references, yeah. Yeah, the British government has given a pittance to help the Bangladeshi refugees. Meanwhile, it's spending huge amounts of money on the Concord program to create supersonic flight. And he's like, this is a moral obscenity. You know, you're walking by a pond and there's a child drowning in it. You could go into the pond and easily save the child, but oh no, it would get your clothes all muddy. And basically not giving money to the relief fund for the Bangladeshi refugee is like not going in to save the child. You avoid this trivial cost to yourself, but at a severe cost to someone else. And he comes away from that thought experiment with a pretty radical proposition, which is that you should basically. Give to the relief funds up until the point in which you are, up to the point of marginal utility, so literally up until the point at which you are worse off than, or you're at the same level as the person suffering in Bangladesh, right? It's an extreme moral obligation you're imposing on someone, but it's an interesting thought experiment, one that people have been wrestling with. Yeah.

中文：你已经删掉了《黑道家族》的参考内容。 《小黑道》参考资料，是的。 是的，英国政府提供了微薄的资金来帮助孟加拉国难民。 与此同时，它在协和计划上投入了大量资金，以创造超音速飞行。 他说，这是道德上的猥亵行为。 你知道，你正走过一个池塘，有一个孩子淹死在里面。 你可以进入池塘轻松救孩子，但是哦，不，这会让你的衣服沾满泥巴。 基本上，不向孟加拉国难民救助基金提供资金就像不去拯救孩子一样。 你避免了自己付出的微不足道的代价，但却给别人带来了沉重的代价。 他从这个思想实验中得出了一个相当激进的主张，那就是你基本上应该这样做。 向救济基金捐款，直到你所处的点，直到边际效用的点，所以实际上直到你比孟加拉国的受苦者更糟糕的点，或者你与孟加拉国的受苦者处于同一水平，对吗？ 这是你强加给某人的极端道德义务，但这是一个有趣的思想实验，人们一直在努力解决这个问题。 是的。

10:00 - 20:00

But what's, what's, and we can get into why I have problems with like his utilitarianism, but what's interesting about the essay is because I went back and read it because I knew we were going to talk about this today. And I know preparation, that's not what this is about. It's not what this podcast is about, but damn it, I did it anyway. Yeah, you did your homework.

中文：但是，什么是，什么是，我们可以谈谈为什么我对他的功利主义有问题，但这篇文章有趣的地方在于，因为我回去重新读了它，因为我知道我们今天会谈论这个。我知道准备工作，这不是关于这个的，这个播客也不是关于这个的，但该死的，我还是做了。是的，你做了你的功课。

What's so funny about it is all the weirdo long-termism insane rabbit holes that EA has gone down today that people are saying oh that doesn't have anything to do with the core ideas it's all in that essay right because he's talking about like Well, yes, you could. I understand the argument that maybe you don't want to give to the relief fund because if we just save the Bangladeshis, then there will be more famines. And so really the effective thing to do is to give to population control measures and spend money on reducing the human population to prevent additional famines later. Yeah, fair enough. Maybe that is a good idea. And he has like in a parenthetical, he's like, unless you think population control is bad. Well yeah, this is the mirror image of just being like, yeah, well there's no harms to be, no one will suffer any harms if there's just one amoeba left on earth. Right, right. I mean this is the best criticism of Steven Pinker's Decline of Violence book, which I think is... Well, that took a lot of killing of all the native peoples of this continent and other places to get to that peace. Like if you're just counting now, yes, there's more peace, but there's a long pile of bone, a pathway paved in blood that got to this point where there's peace, right? Yeah. Like you can kill everyone and then say there's... It's kind of like when they start counting like only hate crimes. Which group has committed more hate crimes in the U.S. beginning September 12th, 2001? Like, okay, well, why did you start there? Yeah, sure. What are your metrics for these things? Yeah, yeah, and I think this is the best critique of utilitarianism is that, like, it's an arch consequentialist philosophy that focuses only on, like, sensation and happiness, utils, right? So the utility monster. The future, there's so many future children, so there's so much more potential utility for them to have that they get more utility than we can. I mean, this is the utility monster. What if there's a thing, well you can't be a pure utilitarianism because what if there's a thing that for whatever dollar spent on it gets more utility than you do, then we all have to sacrifice everything we have to the utility monster.

中文：有趣的是，EA 今天陷入了所有怪异的长期主义疯狂兔子洞，人们说哦，这与核心思想没有任何关系，这一切都在那篇文章中，因为他正在谈论“好吧，是的，你可以”。 我理解这样的论点，也许你不想给救济基金捐款，因为如果我们只是拯救孟加拉国人，那么就会有更多的饥荒。 因此，真正有效的做法是采取人口控制措施，并花钱减少人口数量，以防止以后发生更多饥荒。 是的，很公平。 也许这是个好主意。 他在括号中说，除非你认为人口控制不好。 是的，这就是镜像，是的，没有什么坏处，如果地球上只剩下一只阿米巴原虫，没有人会受到任何伤害。 对，对。 我的意思是，这是对史蒂文·平克（Steven Pinker）的《暴力的衰落》一书最好的批评，我认为这本书是……好吧，这需要对这个大陆和其他地方的所有原住民进行大量杀戮才能实现和平。 就像如果你现在数数，是的，有更多的和平，但是有一大堆骨头，一条用鲜血铺成的路，到达了和平的地步，对吗？ 是的。 就像你可以杀死所有人然后说有......这有点像当他们开始只计算仇恨犯罪时。 自 2001 年 9 月 12 日起，哪个团体在美国犯下更多仇恨犯罪？ 就像，好吧，那么你为什么从那里开始？ 是的，当然。 你对这些事情的衡量标准是什么？ 是的，是的，我认为这是对功利主义最好的批评，就像，这是一种主要的结果主义哲学，只关注感觉和幸福，效用，对吧？ 所以实用怪物。 未来，有很多未来的孩子，所以他们有更多的潜在效用，他们比我们能获得更多的效用。 我的意思是，这是实用怪物。 如果有一样东西，你不能成为一个纯粹的功利主义者，因为如果有一样东西无论花多少钱，都会比你得到更多的效用，那么我们都必须牺牲我们所拥有的一切给效用怪物。

Right, exactly. Yeah, there's no... This is just the utility monster. Because there's no action that could be considered intrinsically evil or wrong that you shouldn't do under utilitarianism, March consequence. It all just depends other than like, you know, reducing the overall utility, right? And that's why like, you know, people, I won't say who, but like I was talking to an EA over the weekend and they were talking about how it was, you know, Sam Bankman Freed convicted fraudster was a big giver to effective altruist causes. The financial backer of this cause, by the way, is in, you know, a fraudster and in prison. Yeah, and you know at the time when he was arrested some people were like well maybe he was doing the fraud because he thought that would generate more money to spend on utilitarian causes and this person was arguing to me that maybe it was actually a bad thing that he was caught and punished because this is you know it looks bad for effective altruism and there's less money going to these causes now and so like the net reduction in utility is more.

中文：对，完全正确。 是的，没有……这只是实用怪物。 因为在功利主义下，没有什么行为本质上是邪恶或错误的，你不应该这样做，马奇的结论是。 这一切都取决于其他因素，而不是降低整体效用，对吗？ 这就是为什么，你知道，人们，我不会说是谁，但就像我周末和一家 EA 交谈一样，他们正在谈论事情的经过，你知道，萨姆·班克曼·弗里德 (Sam Bankman Freed) 被定罪的欺诈者是有效利他主义事业的重要贡献者。 顺便说一句，这项事业的财政支持者是一个欺诈者，并且入狱了。 是的，你知道，当他被捕时，有些人觉得他可能在诈骗，因为他认为这会产生更多的钱用于功利主义事业，而这个人对我说，也许他被抓住并受到惩罚实际上是一件坏事，因为你知道这对于有效的利他主义来说看起来很糟糕，现在用于这些事业的钱越来越少，所以效用的净减少更多。

The noble lie. Yeah, exactly. Everyone is, you know, it's very egalitarian, right? The life of the Bangladeshi refugee is the same as your own effectively, right? But there's no rights involved, right? There's no like intrinsic, you know, every human is equal, but they're also interchangeable, right? So there's no inherent worth to this one particular individual, right? So like under utilitarianism, you could say, oh, you should kill a healthy person and then distribute their organs to five people who need transplants, right? How many usable organs or whatever you can get from a human being. Right.

中文：高尚的谎言。是的，没错。每个人，你知道的，这非常平等，对吧？孟加拉难民的生活实际上和你自己的一样，对吧？但没有涉及权利，对吧？没有那种内在的，你知道，每个人都是平等的，但他们也是可以互换的，对吧？所以这个特定个体没有固有的价值，对吧？所以在功利主义下，你可以说，哦，你应该杀掉一个健康的人，然后把他们的器官分配给需要移植手术的五个人，对吧？从一个人身上你能得到多少可用器官或其他的东西，对吧。

Because that would save more lives, right? Yeah, however many.

中文：因为那样可以拯救更多的生命，对吗？是的，不管多少。

To pay no attention to those dead hobos lining my attic. You're not even giving those organs away. You're a bad effective altruist. We'll harvest them for some purpose. No, I was going to say though, so the valuing the future thing, I don't agree with Tyler Cowell, I don't agree with any of these people, but I've solved it. You know how? Whenever I'm confused about a philosophical quandary, you know what I do? I turn to her. A new What is to come, then I should do that. If it's in accordance with my views, if it makes me feel good to be building or creating something that the next generation and the next generation will derive value from, and that is pleasing to me, then I should do it. So the reason to value at least the immediate future is not in its own terms because people who don't exist have no rights. But because of how that makes us feel better about ourselves. That is what she would say, I think. Right? Yes. And that has an obvious limitation in it because I have no way to value what trillions of people ten million years from now will think of me. So I'm not really considering them in my calculation.

中文：不去理会我阁楼上那些死去的流浪汉。 你甚至不会捐出这些器官。 你是一个糟糕而有效的利他主义者。 我们将出于某种目的收获它们。 不，我想说的是，所以在重视未来的问题上，我不同意泰勒·考威尔的观点，我不同意这些人中的任何一个，但我已经解决了这个问题。 你知道怎么做吗？ 每当我对哲学困境感到困惑时，你知道我会做什么吗？ 我转向她。 新的事情即将到来，那么我就应该这样做。 如果这符合我的观点，如果构建或创造一些东西让我感觉很好，让下一代和下一代都能从中获得价值，并且让我感到高兴，那么我就应该这样做。 因此，至少重视近期的未来的原因并不是就其本身而言，因为不存在的人没有权利。 但因为这让我们对自己感觉更好。 我想这就是她会说的。 正确的？ 是的。 这有一个明显的局限性，因为我无法评估一千万年后数万亿人会怎么看我。 所以我在计算中并没有真正考虑它们。

Nor should I because that's crazy. But I will consider the next generation and the next generation because we'll overlap somewhat and the things I create will still be around and that pleases me, that gives me enjoyment, and that is right and proper, right? That's the Randian view, I think. That's part of the Randian view. The other thing that she would say is that like... By doing great things and like fulfilling your own greatness, you actually provide moral direction to human beings to also like be great and, you know, use their reason for their own betterment, which then, you know, benefits all of mankind. Right. Right. And there's actually an essay that like that she wrote that gets exactly to this point. Which is she was there for the launch of Apollo 11, right? And she wrote this beautiful essay, you know, of her amazement at this technological marvel, right? And towards the end of the essay she responds to the criticism of Apollo 11 because, you know, the rocket goes up and then, you know, she mentions the New York Times kind of ran like snippets from a bunch of notable people.

中文：我也不应该这样做，因为那太疯狂了。 但我会考虑下一代和下一代，因为我们会有所重叠，我创造的东西仍然存在，这让我高兴，这给我带来享受，这是正确的，正确的，对吧？ 我认为这就是燃点的观点。 这是 Randian 观点的一部分。 她想说的另一件事是……通过做伟大的事情，比如实现自己的伟大，你实际上为人类提供了道德指导，让他们也喜欢成为伟大的人，并且，你知道，利用他们的理由来改善自己，然后，你知道，这将使全人类受益。 正确的。 正确的。 事实上，她写的一篇文章正是说到了这一点。 她是参加阿波罗 11 号发射的吗？ 她写了这篇美丽的文章，你知道，表达了她对这一技术奇迹的惊讶，对吗？ 在文章的最后，她回应了对阿波罗 11 号的批评，因为，你知道，火箭升空，然后，你知道，她提到《纽约时报》的报道就像一群名人的片段。

So many of them, the critique was like, hey, look, there's all these people suffering here on Earth. Here we are spinning this vanity project to go to the moon. Who cares, right?

中文：这么多人，批评声是这样的，嘿，看啊，地球上有这么多人在受苦。而我们在这里推动这个虚荣的项目去月球。谁在乎，对吧？

I hate that criticism. Yeah. She excoriates this, right? She's like, man is using his reason to accomplish something great. And instead you would sacrifice all of that just because there's someone else in need who has no claim to your greatness. Right. She has a great line where it's like, you know, I choose the stars, not the slums. Yes. And actually I wrote down, man, I came so prepared. I actually wrote a quote, but it's a response directly to this.

中文：我讨厌那种批评。是的。她严厉抨击这一点，对吧？她就像是在说，人类在用自己的理性去完成一些伟大的事情。而你却会为了一个没有资格享受你伟大的人而牺牲这一切。对吧。她有一句很棒的台词，就像是，你知道的，我选择星辰，而不是贫民窟。是的，实际上我还写下了，我真的准备得很充分。我实际上写了一句引言，但这是直接回应这个问题的。

It's in the essay, which is responding to altruism, but it would, you know, apply doubly to effective altruism. Exponentially. By 10 times, however, whatever their absurd calculations are. Right, yeah, so to your points, like, altruism does not mean mere kindness or generosity, but the sacrifice of the best among men to the worst, the sacrifice of virtue to flaws, of ability to incompetence, of progress to stagnation, and the subordinating of all life and of all values to the claims of anyone suffering. Yeah. Yeah. Dude, all killer, no filler, right? I don't agree entirely with her in that, like, I, you know, I do accept that altruism is good, right? Like, you do have obligations to other people, which, I mean, she, Ayn Rand wouldn't say you have no obligations to other people, she would say you have an obligation to respect other people's rights and autonomy. And you have no unearned obligations to other people.

中文：它在文章中，文章是回应利他主义的，但它会，你知道的，加倍适用于有效利他主义。以指数倍的方式。放大 10 倍，不管他们荒谬的计算是什么。对，对，所以针对你的观点，比如，利他主义并不意味着单纯的善意或慷慨，而是将最好的人牺牲给最坏的人，将美德牺牲给缺陷，将能力牺牲给无能，将进步牺牲给停滞，并将所有生命和所有价值服从于任何受苦者的要求。是的。是的，伙计，全是干货，没有废话，对吧？我在这一点上并不完全同意她，我，你知道，我确实接受利他主义是好的，对吧？就像，你确实对其他人有义务，我是说，她，安·兰德不会说你对其他人没有义务，她会说你有义务尊重其他人的权利和自主权。而你对其他人没有无偿的义务。

Right. You must fulfill whatever obligations you enter into in a voluntary means. Right. And you have to respect other people's agency and individuality because you must respect their reason. Right. Right. But other than that, you have no positive obligation to, you know, alleviate someone else's suffering. Which I, you know, again, I would reject. But this is, I think this is where, weirdly enough, even though she was an arch-atheist, it kind of... Merges a little with like the Catholic critique of utilitarianism, which is there's a lot of moral good to the human life that isn't just mere utils, right? And so the idea that, you know, you should sacrifice, you know, because, you know, for instance, one of the big EA bugaboos recently was when Notre Dame in Paris, the cathedral, burned down. Yeah.

中文：对的。你必须以自愿的方式履行你参与的任何义务。对的。而且你必须尊重他人的自主性和个性，因为你必须尊重他们的理性。对的，对的。但除此之外，你没有积极的义务去，嗯，缓解别人的痛苦。我呢，你知道，我会拒绝这种观点。但我认为，这就是奇怪的地方，即使她是一个极端无神论者，这种观点有点……在某种程度上与天主教对功利主义的批评融合了，那就是人类生活中有很多道德善，并不仅仅是单纯的效用。所以这种想法就是说，你应该牺牲，比如说，最近一个大的有效利他主义争论就是巴黎圣母院大教堂着火的时候。是的。

And that one writer, Dylan Matthews from Vox, he was like really pissed off about the fact that they would rebuild it because you could buy more bed nets, right? So like yeah, the idea that like beauty, yeah, glorifying God has no value whatsoever. Again, it's just like how many qualities, qualified life years can you pump out? Right, she would be for rebuilding it. Well, I think she would, I don't think she would be for rebuilding the cathedral because it's, you know, superstition or whatever else. Well, she liked pretty buildings, though. Yeah, so, I mean, maybe if I, she would see some...

中文：而那位作家，来自 Vox 的 Dylan Matthews，他对他们要重建它这件事真的很生气，因为你本可以用同样的钱买更多的蚊帐，对吧？所以，是的，认为美丽或者荣耀上帝没有任何价值的这种想法。再说一次，这就像是你能产生多少合格的生命年，对吧，她会支持重建它吗？嗯，我觉得她可能会，我不认为她会支持重建大教堂，因为那是迷信之类的东西。不过，她确实喜欢漂亮的建筑。是的，所以，我的意思是，也许如果我……她会看到一些……

20:00 - 30:00

She appreciated history and thought that religions were a form of, were an early attempt to understand the phenomena in your world. Now we've improved upon those and people should embrace science. Yeah. But, yeah.

中文：她很欣赏历史，并认为宗教是一种，是早期尝试理解你世界现象的方式。现在我们已经在这些基础上有所改进，人们应该接受科学。是的。不过，是的。

Yeah, she actually- Not by erasing the evidence that people, because early religion is an attempt by man to understand his surroundings. Yeah. In her view. Yeah, she actually has an interesting observation in the Apollo 11 essay where she's at the launch base and the town around it. And she's like, they have, there's lots of churches, too many. And she points out they're all made in a modernist style. And she's like, that's their attempt to stay relevant in the shadow of this like- Technology that's not of our own times. Oh, that's glorious. Yeah. All right, well, we've torn those effective altruists a new asshole. Yeah, well, it's so, man. And they deserve it.

中文：是的，她实际上——不是通过抹去人们的证据，因为早期的宗教是人类试图理解周围环境的一种尝试。是的。依她的观点。是的，她实际上在《阿波罗 11 号》一文中有一个有趣的观察，她在发射基地和周围的城镇。她说，他们那里有很多教堂，太多了。她指出它们全都是现代主义风格建造的。她说，这是他们试图在这种超出我们时代的技术阴影下保持相关性的尝试。哦，那太棒了。是的。好了，我们已经狠狠批评了那些有效利他主义者。是的，老实说，情况就是这样。他们活该。

What a time.

中文：真是个时代。

Oh, yeah. But everyone's yelling about effective altruism on social media. What a time to be alive. The Defense Department. We will never. What did they tweet? We will never be an effective altruist nation. That's so great. Yeah. It's so great. The people running the social media accounts for the Department of Defense and a couple other agents in the White House itself are like... 19, I think.

中文：哦，是的。但每个人都在社交媒体上大喊有效利他主义。这真是一个令人兴奋的时代。国防部。我们永远不会。 他们发了什么推文？我们永远不会成为一个有效利他主义的国家。那太棒了。是啊。太棒了。管理国防部社交媒体账号的人，以及白宫内的几个其他工作人员，大概... 19 岁，我想。

And just like terminally online. Yeah. Yeah, I was thinking about this last night where I was like, it used to be that, you know, the Department of Defense had a Twitter account and now it's part of Twitter. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's just... Everyone in government, it is especially true of Republicans, they view themselves as influencers and content creators and social media stars.

中文：就像彻底沉迷网络一样。是的。是的，我昨晚在想这个，我在想，过去呢，你知道，国防部有一个推特账号，现在它成了推特的一部分。是的，你知道吗？是的。是的。嗯，就是这样……政府里的每个人，特别是共和党人，他们把自己看作是有影响力的人、内容创作者和社交媒体明星。

I mean, many of them come to politics from reality TV. It's had a very... A great impact on policy. Not a positive impact necessarily, but... Oh, can I say one more thing? To be a little nice to effective altruists, who again I find... Well again, I started out saying I agree with them in general that their criticism of...

中文：我的意思是，他们中的许多人是从真人秀节目进入政治的。这对政策产生了非常...很大的影响。不一定是积极的影响，但...哦，我可以再说一件事吗？为了对有效利他主义者稍微好一点，我再次觉得...嗯，我一开始就说过，我总体上同意他们对……的批评。

Often criticism of like lefty NGOs that don't actually do anything or they're like are doing anti-racism training for no reason that accomplishes nothing. It has no scientific, it has no metrics of here is how we have lessened racism at all. Right. They just irritated a lot of people. Yeah, totally. And I mean, I just give money to the people. Yeah. And I give to, what is it? Give directly, give well. Oh, yeah. Rub it in my face all day, why don't you? Yeah.

中文：经常批评那些左倾的非政府组织，它们实际上什么都不做，或者它们在无缘无故地进行反种族主义培训，但没有任何成效。它没有科学依据，没有衡量标准来说明我们是如何减少种族主义的。对吧。它只是惹恼了很多人。是的，完全是。而且，我只是给人们捐钱。是的。我捐给什么来着？直接捐，捐给慈善机构。哦，是啊，你整天在我面前炫耀吗？

Sorry. But yeah, I mean, I think that's like a good thing that you're trying, that if you are going to spend money, you should do it wisely. And I've adopted their arguments about it's better just to give, even if we're doing government welfare programs, I would sooner just give a check to poor people. Then have some cumbersome, like, intervention, or if you're doing food stamps, here's what you can buy with it, here's what you can't. I don't want to waste time at the cash register, having them figuring out which of the items you can buy with that welfare money in which you can't. Money's fungible, it's all, just give them, just send them money. And if they want to spend it on a new computer, let them spend it on a new computer rather than, so I agree with and have adopted many of their arguments. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I just like, I have a little bit of sympathy for them because like the most immediate criticisms you hear of effective altruism are like A, it's like an insane moral standard to hold people to. Yeah. And then two, it's like none of you guys actually abide by this standard. Yeah. I actually find both of those like not very convincing. So it's like, well, at least not immediately convincing. So it's like A, like, well, there's lots of moral standards that are very hard to abide by. It doesn't actually make them wrong. Right. Yeah. And so I could sympathize with him there. And then the other one is like, yeah, I guess they're being hypocritical, but like anyone who has any values is going to be hypocritical because we're not all saints. You know what I mean? Like you can make the exact same criticism to try to like disprove Christianity, right? It's like, oh, well, this demands unrealistic things of people. Yes. You know? Oh, not all Christians are perfect people. Right. Yes. Right? Yeah. I don't think it's, I mean, they're very math based in their analysis, but it's just. Could also be completely wrong. It's too hard to predict.

中文：对不起。 但是，是的，我的意思是，我认为这就像你正在尝试的一件好事，如果你要花钱，你应该明智地这样做。 我采纳了他们的观点，即即使我们正在实施政府福利计划，最好只是给予，我也会更快地向穷人提供支票。 然后进行一些麻烦的事情，比如干预，或者如果你正在做食品券，这是你可以用它购买的东西，这是你不能购买的东西。 我不想在收银台上浪费时间，让他们弄清楚哪些物品可以用福利金购买，哪些物品不能购买。 钱是可以替代的，仅此而已，只需给他们，只需给他们寄钱即可。 如果他们想把钱花在新电脑上，那就让他们花在新电脑上，而不是，所以我同意并采纳了他们的许多论点。 嗯嗯。 是的，我只是喜欢，我对他们有一点同情，因为就像你听到的对有效利他主义最直接的批评一样，就像 A 一样，它就像一个疯狂的道德标准来要求人们遵守。 是的。 第二，好像你们没有人真正遵守这个标准。 是的。 我实际上发现这两者都不太令人信服。 所以这就像，嗯，至少一开始并不令人信服。就像 A，嗯，有很多道德标准很难遵守。但这并不意味着它们就是错误的，对吧。是的。所以我可以在这点上同情他。然后另一个就是，嗯，我猜你说他们是在虚伪，但凡有价值观的人都会虚伪，因为我们不是圣人。你明白我的意思吗？就像你可以用同样的批评来试图驳斥基督教，对吧？就像，哦，这对人们的要求不现实，是啊。你知道吗？哦，并不是所有基督徒都是完美的人，对吧？是啊，对吧？是的。我不认为这是，我的意思是，他们的分析非常基于数学，但这只是。也可能完全错了。太难预测了。

Yeah, right. This is an interesting idea from that The Good Place show. Did you ever watch that one? No, I never watched that. It's pretty good high concept.

中文：是啊，对。这是《好地方》节目中的一个有趣的想法。你看过那个吗？不，我从没看过。它的概念挺高的，很不错。

Comedy about the afterlife. And well, to spoil it, I guess don't listen. I know the twist. Yeah, the twist is they think they're in the heaven. This is like the first season twist is it is a form of hell that they're in this torture. But as it goes on, what emerges is that. Basically, everyone has been going to hell for the last like 600 years or something. And the reason is that the formula or the calculation determine if you're a good person and you should go to the good place or a bad person or the bad place has not been recalibrated to take into account the complexity of modern life. Whereas like it used to be very simple whether you're a good person or a bad person but as technology has developed and all these societies form your even good actions can have all these totally unintended bad consequences and so like the threshold is too high and no one can clear it anymore and they have to like correct that problem which is very interesting in the later seasons.

中文：关于来世的喜剧。好吧，如果想避免剧透，我猜你别听。我知道反转。是的，反转是他们以为自己在天堂。这就像第一季的反转，是他们其实在一个折磨的地狱里。但随着剧情的发展，出现的是，基本上，过去大约 600 年里每个人都在下地狱。而原因是，用来决定你是好人应该去好地方还是坏人应该去坏地方的公式或计算，没有重新校准去考虑现代生活的复杂性。以前很简单，判断你是好人还是坏人，但随着技术发展和各种社会形成，即便是好的行为也可能产生完全意想不到的坏结果，所以标准太高，没有人能通过，他们必须纠正这个问题，这在后几季非常有趣。

Yeah, that's pretty smart. Yeah, that's pretty cool. And of course the, and like, you know, like the bad place, good place overseers who are

中文：是的，那很聪明。是的，那很酷。当然，还有，像你知道的，像好坏地方的监督者们

like, you know, immortal angel demon beings don't really, like the joke that they don't care that much. Like to them, it's a blink of an eye. They're like, oh yeah, I guess no one has gone in in 600 years. Like it's not, it hasn't even occurred to them that something's wrong.

中文：比如，你知道的，不死的天使恶魔之类的存在，他们其实并不太在意那个笑话。对他们来说，那只是眨眼的功夫而已。他们会觉得，哦耶，我猜过去 600 年没人进去过。对他们来说，根本都没意识到有什么不对劲。

Right. And our heroes are like, but isn't that a problem? They're like, huh? Yeah, we'll get back to you on that. Yeah. Yeah. Now the uncertainty issue is a serious problem for utilitarianism, right? And it actually, I mean, the Peter Singer essay is a great example of this. I was talking with Cody, our producer before the show about this, where it's like, he advocates like population control in that essay because otherwise- Oh, Peter Singer.

中文：对。我们的英雄们就像，但那不是个问题吗？他们就像，嗯？是的，我们会回头再和你讨论这个。是的。是的。现在，不确定性问题对功利主义来说是一个严重的问题，对吧？实际上，我的意思是，彼得·辛格的文章就是一个很好的例子。我在节目之前和我们的制作人科迪谈过这个，他在那篇文章中主张人口控制，因为不然——哦，彼得·辛格。

Cody! Yeah. Very bad. You knocked that off, young man. That's the least of the terrible things you said. No, I'm just kidding. But, um, no, he advocates... About me? No. Okay. No, of course not. I don't believe that. For a second. I was only 40 minutes late today. Yeah. Getting better. Dialing it in. But yeah, he advocates for extreme population control. He's like, well, the planet can never support population growth at this rate. It's like, oh, well, A, it did. And secondly, we did have massive population control efforts, and those were horrible disasters, right? One China or one... China, one child. One China, one child. One China, one child.

中文：科迪！是的，很糟糕。你做错了，年轻人。这是你说过的可怕事情中最轻的一件。不，我只是开玩笑。不过，嗯，不，他主张……关于我吗？不。好吧，不，当然不是。我不相信那种事。有那么一瞬间。我今天只是迟到了 40 分钟。是的，在进步。慢慢掌握状态。但对，他确实主张极端的人口控制。他觉得，嗯，地球永远无法承载这种速度的人口增长。就像，哦，好吧，第一，它确实承载过。其次，我们确实进行过大规模的人口控制努力，那都是可怕的灾难，对吧？一个中国还是一个……中国，一孩政策。中国，一孩政策。中国，一孩政策。

Oh, right, yeah, yeah. So put a pin in India. Come back or go back. Yeah, well, that's what, you know. We'll get into it. Racists want. Yeah.

中文：哦，对，对，对。所以先把印度放一边。回来或者回去。是的，好吧，那就是，你知道的。我们会讨论的。种族主义者想要。是的。

Hard not to call them that. Yeah, but anyway, yeah, I guess that's, those are my thoughts. But to the degree that effective altruists are in fact saving people's lives from malaria and helping a poor village get a new well, that's great. All right. Well, we like aspects of them. We just disagree with their doomsday-esque cult. Yeah, and I sympathize a little with their sociological position at the moment because we too have gone through this. Yeah. It's weird, yeah, it's like sometimes I feel, I know I shouldn't, but I even feel like a little sympathy sometimes for like the DSA weirdos where it's like, you are also like a ridiculous ideological movement that like gets like, you know, thinks you're gonna have your moment and it's not gonna happen, the rug's gonna get pulled away. Let's get started. Flapping its wings outside my window. These are all omens that our time is coming. Sweet. January 19th. 2029. That's the date of the movement. Write it down. Write it down. Yeah. Is that like Inauguration Day? Oh, okay. No, I picked it at random. Thomas Massey, president. Yeah. January 19th, 2029? That's around the... It's going to be right around Inauguration Day. Okay. We'll be inaugurating somebody. Okay. Well, if we get a shit president, it's your fault. Well, we probably will. Actually, I can pretty much, that is a prophecy I can confidently make. The next president will be shit. Yeah, unlike the current one. It was great. Well, you know, whenever I'm ready to just totally cut time and be like, man, I just don't like anything he does. He reels me back in with something. And this is a good example of like right now the only sane person on AI is Donald Trump.

中文：很难不这样称呼他们。 是的，但无论如何，是的，我想这就是我的想法。 但就有效的利他主义者实际上正在拯救人们免受疟疾侵害并帮助一个贫穷的村庄获得新井的程度而言，这真是太好了。 好的。 嗯，我们喜欢它们的某些方面。 我们只是不同意他们的末日式邪教。 是的，我有点同情他们目前的社会学立场，因为我们也经历过这个。 是的。 这很奇怪，是的，有时候我觉得，我知道我不应该，但有时我什至对 DSA 怪人感到有点同情，就像，你们也像一场荒谬的意识形态运动，就像，你知道，认为你会拥有自己的时刻，但它不会发生，地毯会被拉走。 让我们开始吧。 在我的窗外拍打翅膀。 这些都是我们的时代即将到来的预兆。 甜的。 1 月 19 日。 2029 年。那是运动的日期。 把它写下来。 把它写下来。 是的。 这就像就职日吗？ 哦好的。 不是，我是随机选的。 托马斯·梅西，总裁。 是的。 2029 年 1 月 19 日？ 那是在……就职典礼当天左右。 好的。 我们将要为某人举行就职典礼。好吧，如果我们得到一个糟糕的总统，那是你的错。嗯，我们可能会的。实际上，我几乎可以，这是一条我可以自信预言的预言。下一任总统会很糟糕。是的，不像现在的这个。那真是太棒了。嗯，你知道，每当我准备彻底断开时间，像是，伙计，我就是不喜欢他做的任何事时，他总能用一些事把我拉回去。这是一个很好的例子，比如说，现在唯一在人工智能方面理智的人是唐纳德·特朗普。

30:00 - 40:00

Yeah.

中文：是的。

Like the things he says are just are correct and normal and directionally correct. And he says he's anti-doomerism. He's like, no, no, no, we're going to have it. What J.D. Vance is saying is perfectly fine. Again, these are people I've – and it's funny because Trump has thrown out their traditional Republican economic book on so many issues and has moved the party in a worse direction on economics on so many things. Tech is the major exception. And, I mean, this is – if anyone else was president right now –

中文：就像他说的事情都是正确的、正常的，而且方向是正确的。而且他说他反对末日论。他就像是，不，不，不，我们会做到的。J.D. Vance 说的完全没问题。同样，这些人都是我——而且很有趣的是，因为特朗普在很多问题上抛弃了他们传统的共和党经济书，并在很多经济问题上把党带到了更糟的方向。科技是主要的例外。而且，我的意思是——如果现在是其他任何人当总统——

This could be going very badly.

中文：这可能会进行得非常糟糕。

We could be the regulatory battles that Joe Biden would wait or Joe Biden's a corpse, but that he is that he would allow Lena Kahn and whoever else is in his administration. He went Bernie Sanders would be writing the policy. Elizabeth Warren would be writing the policy. The war they would be waging on the productive aspects of our economy right now would be insane. Just just a reminder. Casual reminder of that. Yeah. It's such a strange time to be alive because yeah so like all of a sudden this AI doomerism has been like everyone is talking about right I don't know if you go through the same experience but like you know you have your podcast diet right of the four or five podcasts you listen to political podcasts yeah and it's like when they all converge on a single topic right that's what's

中文：我们可能会成为乔·拜登会等待的监管之战，或者乔·拜登就是一具尸体，但他会让莉娜·卡恩以及他政府中的其他人处理。他去伯尼·桑德斯会制定政策。伊丽莎白·沃伦会制定政策。他们现在在我们经济的生产性方面进行的战争将会是疯狂的。只是提醒一下，随意提醒一下。是的，活在这样的时代真是奇怪，因为，是的，突然间这种 AI 末日论似乎每个人都在讨论，对吧？我不知道你是否有同样的经历，但你知道，你有你的播客饮食，对，就是你听的四五个政治播客，是的，当它们都集中在一个话题上，对吧，这就是

happening with like will AI kill us all that's literally the conversation mine are always just white nationalism yeah Civil War Reenactment, the real villains of World War II. Civil War? Yeah. Yeah.

中文：发生的事情就像 AI 会杀了我们所有人，这实际上是对话，我的是总是关于白人民族主义，是的，内战重演，二战的真正反派。内战？是的。是的。

Yeah, really showing your colors there. But yeah, like the people who are normally, the conservatives who are normally insane about economic issues are completely correct about... AI and data centers, as you've said, like, uh, the abundance people are doomers. Yeah. The people who are like economic growth is good. Free markets are generally good. Let's move the democratic party in a more like free trade market oriented direction has been like, oh, they're onto something. These EA people. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Whereas like someone like Michael Brennan Doherty, who I always find interesting, even though I almost never agree with them, except for like some foreign policy stuff. He's like, Pretty chillaxed about AI and data centers. I'm like, what? Sara Bamari is pretty chill about them. I don't know what's going on. What is happening?

中文：是的，真的显露出你的本性了。不过，是的，那些通常在经济问题上很疯狂的保守派，在……人工智能和数据中心的问题上完全是正确的，正如你所说的，嗯，那些认为事物过多的人是悲观主义者。是的。那些认为经济增长是好事、自由市场总体上是好的、应该让民主党朝着更自由贸易市场导向方向发展的人的人就觉得，哦，他们发现了什么。这些 EA（有效利他主义）的人。是的。是的。是的。而像我总觉得有趣的迈克尔·布伦南·多尔蒂那样的人，虽然几乎从来不同意他的观点，除了某些外交政策问题，他对人工智能和数据中心的态度相当淡定。我就想，什么？萨拉·巴马里对这些也相当淡定。我不知道发生了什么。到底是怎么回事？

These are all the guys who are like, FDR was great.

中文：这些都是那些说‘FDR 很伟大’的人。

You know? Yeah. All right, to say some not so nice things about the right. Oh, well, should we do a palate cleanser?

中文：你知道吗？是的。好吧，说一些关于右翼的不太好听的话。哦，好吧，我们要不要换一下口味？

Let's do something fun.

中文：我们来做些有趣的事情吧。

Great. Did you have thoughts about Sydney Sweeney in the sports thing? I know I preface this. You were in favor of that commercial of her? I mean, it was a... Recommending gambling? I had no idea what the ad was about, but I liked it.

中文：太好了。你对悉尼·斯威尼在运动相关的事情有什么想法吗？我知道我先声明一下。你是支持她的那则广告吗？我的意思是，那是在... 推荐赌博？我完全不知道那则广告是关于什么的，但我喜欢它。

I was entranced by it. She's a beautiful woman. She's a beautiful woman. And that's good and fine. Yeah. Women can be beautiful. Why do we have to politicize it?

中文：我被它迷住了。她是一个美丽的女人。她是一个美丽的女人。这很好，也没问题。是的，女人可以漂亮。我们为什么非要把它政治化呢？

Yeah. You know? And beauty and athletics go together, I think. Yeah.

中文：是的。你知道吗？我认为美丽和运动是相辅相成的。是的。

You know? Yeah, sure. So.

中文：你知道吗？是的，当然。那么。

Yeah. It was for sports gambling or something. Okay. Well, I guess, yeah, whatever. Whatever.

中文：是的。那是用来体育赌博之类的。好吧。嗯，我想，是的，随便吧。随便吧。

I don't gamble on sports. All right. You heard it here first. Sydney Sweeney, we're in favor. Fine. Fine. Even better than fine. Good. Good even. I'd say good. Yeah. She's a pretty girl. Okay. I think effective altruism is a demand that I sports gamble to make her happy. Oh. I'm going to do that right now. By the way, you know why I was late today? What was that? I had steak and eggs for breakfast.

中文：我不在体育比赛上赌博。好吧。你们是第一个听到的。悉尼·斯威尼，我们支持她。好。好。甚至比好还好。好。甚至可以说是好。我会说好。是的。她是个漂亮的女孩。好吧。我认为有效利他主义要求我为了让她高兴而在体育比赛上赌博。哦。我现在就去做。顺便说一下，你知道我今天为什么迟到吗？那是什么原因？我早餐吃了牛排和鸡蛋。

Okay. It was so good. That's what you were doing? Well, I had to eat something and I had a leftover steak. How does that take? Come on, buddy. I had a leftover steak and... It just called for an egg on top of it. Yeah, I mean, I love steak and eggs. I was thinking about who do you think was the first person to realize this genius invention of steak and eggs? Who was like, you know what? Steak, not good enough. I'm gonna put an egg on it. And probably the other cavemen were like, oh. You're a madman. Okay. And then he did it and then I hope he killed all of them with his club. I hope he beat them all to death because he's the better. That's what killed the Neanderthals, right? Is the human got the steak and eggs and the Neanderthals were like, oh, we can't make a sea noise. No wonder we beat them when we had steak and eggs on our side. Yeah. It was pretty great. Yeah. It's actually, it's not a global phenomenon. I remember I was once in Mexico and we kept through. Where was Rangelos? No, but that's not steak and eggs. No, that's eggs and beans. Everything is something and beans there.

中文：好的。 真是太好了。 那就是你在做什么？ 好吧，我得吃点东西，我吃了一块剩下的牛排。 怎么样？ 来吧，伙计。 我吃了一块剩下的牛排，只是需要在上面放一个鸡蛋。 是的，我是说，我喜欢牛排和鸡蛋。 我在想你认为谁是第一个实现牛排和鸡蛋这一天才发明的人？ 谁的样子，你知道吗？ 牛排，不够好。 我要在上面放一个鸡蛋。 也许其他穴居人会说，哦。 你是个疯子。 好的。 然后他做到了，然后我希望他用他的棍棒杀死了所有人。 我希望他能把他们都打死，因为他更优秀。 这就是杀死尼安德特人的原因，对吗？ 人类得到了牛排和鸡蛋，而尼安德特人就像，哦，我们不能发出海声。 难怪当我们有牛排和鸡蛋时我们打败了他们。 是的。 真是太棒了。 是的。 事实上，这不是一个全球现象。 我记得我曾经去过墨西哥，我们坚持了下来。 兰杰洛斯在哪里？ 不，但这不是牛排和鸡蛋。 不，那是鸡蛋和豆子。 那里的一切都是东西和豆子。

Through very like bad Spanish. Which I love, by the way. We were like trying to negotiate getting beef and eggs on the same plate. Hey, how are you?

中文：通过非常像糟糕的西班牙语。顺便说一句，我很喜欢。我们就像在尝试协商把牛肉和鸡蛋放在同一盘子里。嘿，你好吗？

That's what we were saying. We were like, what? And it just couldn't happen. So yeah, this is something we've really nailed down.

中文：这就是我们当时在说的。我们当时的反应是，什么？而那根本不可能发生。所以，是的，这是我们真正确定下来的事情。

Yeah. Steak and eggs, man. That's good stuff. It was nice to eat something. So I was sick this week, which was miserable. I'm an unpleasant person when I'm not feeling well. I was not quite sick enough to avoid coming to the Reason office on Monday, so I'm sure I spread whatever poisonous infection I had to everyone in the immediate vicinity, so I'm sure we'll all go down soon. And between that and, you know, I'd fallen off my scooter, so I'd been out of the gym for like two weeks, and I couldn't go to the gym this week.

中文：是的。牛排和鸡蛋，伙计。那可是好东西。能吃点东西真好。这周我生病了，非常难受。我身体不舒服时是个让人讨厌的人。我生病的程度不至于躲开周一去 Reason 办公室，所以我肯定把我身上的某种毒性感染传给了周围的每一个人，所以我相信我们很快都会倒下。加上那个，你知道，我从滑板车上摔下来了，所以我已经两周没去健身房了，这周也没法去健身房。

So I finally this morning, there's a real reason I'm late, so I went to the gym. For the first time in three weeks. And this is probably the longest break I've had from the gym in like three, I'm not trying to gloat or something. I've taken like a week off if you go on vacation

中文：所以我终于在今天早上，有一个真正让我迟到的理由，所以我去了健身房。这是三周以来的第一次去。这可能是我三年来从健身房休息时间最长的一次，我不是想炫耀什么。如果你去度假，我通常会休息一周左右。

or something, maybe up to two weeks, but never three weeks. And two weeks to three weeks is apparently the difference between you really don't lose anything

中文：或者什么的，可能最多两周，但绝不会三周。而两周到三周显然就是你真的不会失去任何东西的区别

to you do lose a little bit of your strength. So again, this is the first time in three years. So I went to lift, I lift like, Heavyweights. And I'm just trying to maintain. I do the same four workouts every week. I have done the same four workouts every week for three years. So I like I do. You know, this one, I don't know what anything's called, like on an incline bench, dumbbell press. Okay. And I can do like four sets of 10 of 150 pounds, which is pretty good. I could not lift it today. I just couldn't lift it. I was like, damn. And someone even took pity on me. They're like, hey, do you need a spot for that? I'm like, I can't even lift them. I'm like, no, no, I'm fine. So I had to drop down and then I could do it. So now I got to get back to it. So I don't like that. I got to get back to where I've been. Well, steak and eggs help. The steak and eggs help. The protein, yeah. There's nothing better than some steak and eggs after a good, you know, lifting session. I love the simplicity of it too, right? Eating a steak after a lifting. It's like your muscles become my muscles. Ooh, yes. Yeah, I'm like doing like a Dragon Ball Z, like, you know, power thing. My spiky hair is swirling. Yeah, and the guy's like, do you need a spot? No, I'm a weak, weak, pathetic little thing. Give it time, give it time. You'll be back at it. I'll be back at it. It was good to be back at it.

中文：对你来说确实会失去一点力量。 再说一遍，这是三年来的第一次。 所以我去举重，我举起重量级的东西。 而我只是想努力维持。 我每周都会进行同样的四次锻炼。 三年来，我每周都会进行同样的四次锻炼。 所以我喜欢我这样做。 你知道，这个，我不知道叫什么，比如上斜凳、哑铃推举。 好的。 我可以做四组，每组 10 磅，每组 150 磅，这已经相当不错了。 今天我无法举起它。 我就是举不起来。 我当时想，该死。 甚至有人可怜我。 他们就像，嘿，你需要一个地方吗？ 我想，我什至无法举起它们。 我想，不，不，我很好。 所以我必须先下来然后我才能做到。 所以现在我必须回到正题。 所以我不喜欢这样。 我必须回到我去过的地方。 嗯，牛排和鸡蛋有帮助。 牛排和鸡蛋有帮助。 蛋白质，是的。 在一次良好的举重训练后，没有什么比吃牛排和鸡蛋更好的了。 我也喜欢它的简单性，对吗？ 举重后吃牛排。 就像你的肌肉变成了我的肌肉一样。 哦，是的。 是的，我就像《龙珠 Z》一样，就像，你知道，力量的事情。 我的尖刺头发在旋转。是的，然后那个人说，你需要帮忙吗？不，我是一个弱小、可怜的小东西。给它时间，给它时间。你会重新开始的。我会重新开始的。重新开始真的很好。

Yeah, okay.

中文：好吧。

But this was essential. Okay, I did want to talk about... That, um, that UT Austin photo thing, did you see that? Yeah, I did. I was just nice to the right, so now we're going to be mean to at least an aspect of the right. Because they did get some significant criticism from others on the right, thank God.

中文：但是这是必不可少的。好吧，我确实想谈谈……那个，嗯，那个德克萨斯大学奥斯汀照片的事情，你看到了吗？是的，我看到了。我之前对右翼还算友好，所以现在我们至少要对右翼的某个方面尖刻一些。因为他们确实受到了一些来自右翼其他人的重大批评，谢天谢地。

So this photo, we can show this photo, we'll put it up. Ah!

中文：所以这张照片，我们可以展示这张照片，我们会把它贴上去。啊！

There it is. Magic of... Production of podcast. This Beau French guy is running for like Texas Railroad Commissioner, which I guess that's a real job.

中文：就是这样。……播客制作的魔力。这个叫博·弗伦奇的家伙正在竞选德克萨斯州铁路专员，我想那是个真实存在的职位。

I don't know what that is.

中文：我不知道那是什么。

He's like a... That tracks. I'm picturing like Snidely Whiplash or something like... I hope he's not an effective altruist because then he'd be derailing it into the power plant in order to stop the creation of any technology. It's like the trolley problem. The effective altruists are like, how can I... Uh, mow down enough people to stop all progress so that trillions don't die in the future. Right. Good stuff. Anyway, he was just sharing this picture of, um, the UT Austin football team, the Longhorns, winning this game. I was apparently a pretty great game. Like, they came back. Come back from, uh, playing Ohio State. And they beat Ohio State, whom I hate.

中文：他就像是…… 那说得通。我脑海里想象的是像斯奈德利·威普拉什那样的角色或者类似的……希望他不是一名有效利他主义者，因为那样他可能会把事情引向电厂，为了阻止任何科技的创造。这就像电车难题。有效利他主义者会想，嗯，我怎么才能…… 噢，碾过足够多的人以阻止所有进步，这样未来就不会有数万亿人死去。对，很棒的概念。总之，他只是分享了一张图片，是德克萨斯大学奥斯汀分校的橄榄球队——长角牛队——赢得比赛的画面。显然那是一场非常棒的比赛。他们从落后中反超，打败了我讨厌的俄亥俄州立大学。

Oh. Because I'm a Michigan graduate.

中文：哦。因为我是密歇根大学的毕业生。

So, this is a moment of celebration. Human triumph. And he has this picture of the students, and I guess some of those students are Indian, Call me not racist enough, but I couldn't really tell whether they were Indian or Mexican or just white people with tans. I don't know. I can't really tell, but I'm not a racist, so I can't tell. But he asserts there's too many Indians and this is the whole problem with America. And, you know, we've let all these Indians in and all these H-1B visas, these foreigners in our institutions and... You know, a lot of people are like, okay, that's a really hateful reaction to students celebrating their team winning is to say they're too Indian looking.

中文：所以，这是一个庆祝的时刻。人类的胜利。他有一张学生的照片，我猜其中有些学生是印度人，别说我不够种族歧视，但我真的分不清他们是印度人、墨西哥人，还是只是晒黑的白人。我不知道。我真的分不清，但我不是种族主义者，所以我无法判断。但他坚持认为印度人太多，这是美国的整个问题。你知道，我们让这么多印度人进入，还有这些 H-1B 签证，这些外国人进入我们的机构……你知道，很多人会说，好吧，对学生庆祝他们的队伍获胜作出这样反应真的是很仇视，这种反应就是说他们看起来印度人太多。

Texas born UT students. Right, because then if you go to the statistics, this is a school that by law 90% of the people admitted have to be from Texas and then the rest are out of state. So it's not, so these are probably just Indian descent people who live in Texas. So they are Texans. It's like his literal problem is just that their skin is brown.

中文：德州出生的 UT 学生。对，因为如果你看看统计数据，这所学校依法必须有 90%的录取者来自德州，其余的是州外的。所以不是这样，这些人可能只是居住在德州的印度裔人。所以他们是德州人。他的真正问题实际上只是他们皮肤是棕色的。

Right. I mean, I'm trying, like, if you're trying to come up with a, what is your problem if it's not that, you run into a lot of dead ends. Right. Because, okay, well, they are Texans. And also... Oh, no, but they haven't assimilated. Oh, wait, yes, they have.

中文：没错。我的意思是，我在尝试，比如说，如果你试图想出一个——如果你的问题不是那个，你会遇到很多死胡同。对吧。因为，好吧，他们是德克萨斯人。而且……哦，不，但他们还没有同化。哦，等等，是的，他们已经同化了。

40:00 - 50:00

Okay, they're still running a football team's win.

中文：好吧，他们仍在经营一支足球队的胜利。

Because they're doing, like, the most Texas thing, yeah. Right. And, you know, even if you want to... Like, if you're trying to draw immigration differences, like Indians are a very high performing immigrant group. They commit very little crime. They have high incomes. This is not, doesn't seem like a group to get really upset about. Again, they are Texans and like, but he's like, but something about your culture is being like, my culture, I don't. Right. Like whose culture, like,

中文：因为他们做的事情，就像，非常德州风格，是的。对。而且，你知道，即使你想……比如说，如果你想描绘移民之间的差异，印度人是一个表现非常好的移民群体。他们犯罪率很低，收入很高。这似乎不是什么会让人非常生气的群体。再说一次，他们是德州人，但他会说，但是你文化里的某些东西就像是，我的文化，我不认同。对。就像，谁的文化，像是，

What is, like, Texas is not like some island under sea, like, if I, okay, if I move to Texas, I'm detracting from the Texas culture the same way, right? Because I'm not from Texas either.

中文：德克萨斯州并不像某个海底的岛屿一样，如果我，嗯，好吧，如果我搬到德克萨斯州，我是在以同样的方式削弱德克萨斯州的文化，对吧？因为我也不是德克萨斯州人。

They're more from Texas than I am, so then the difference is just that I'm white? Right. Because I'm, I mean I'm not, what about the Mexican people who've lived there and have much deeper cultural historic roots to Texas than me and Italian and German peopl Did draw backlash, a lot of it, from other people on the right. Eric Erickson, who's a conservative radio host, who I think is a pretty good guy, I like a lot of what he has to say. He did a long article about the infiltration of the right by these white nationalist groups, which is definitely a phenomenon at this point. I mean, Stephanie Slade has observed it as well in the book she has, Fusionism, that's out at Everest. It's a great book. This is a thing. So... Yeah, but then I also wanted to point out, I wrote this in my newsletter, it's interesting that this is where we're having this fight because actually the University of Texas Austin was an important battle in the affirmative action war. Right. And like, let's remember here, the thing you're complaining about, there's too many high-performing immigrants, I mean they're not even immigrants, but high-performing minority ethnicities at this university. was a principle that conservatives and libertarian legal activists fought to enshrine into law for 40 years, 30 years. And drew a setback in Texas, right? We said we don't want universities to be able to admit people based on race. Yeah, give some of the history of the actual court case. It's fascinating because if you go back to, and actually Michigan, my school is two of the important cases, Gratz and Grutter, from 2003. What's fascinating about how the Supreme Court came down on affirmative action is that up until Gratz and Grutter, supporters of doing race-based admissions, of allowing there to be racial discrimination in... You can do it, however, because a racially diverse campus is of benefit to all the other students. Yeah. So you can do it for that reason. So then everyone who's in support of race conscious admissions had to just change what they were arguing. And you can tell they never really believed it. And because also it takes diversity to a level of extreme pseudoscience to say that the campus is better if there's like... 9% black people and 12% Latino people and okay but what about mixed race people what it is it's like utterly incoherent but the Supreme Court forced them to make this argument because it was the only one they accepted so they could continue doing race conscious admissions and they left it in so in Michigan one of the cases was the undergrad was just undergraduate admissions and was one of the cases was the law school and I think they struck down they struck down the undergraduate the undergraduate one was just like you get You get a billion points toward admissions if you're a certain minority. It's like an odd... It was so much more than a perfect SAT score or whatever that it was just... It was really egregious. And they said that was too much. But the law school... How many points you got was a smaller representation, so they said that was fine.

中文：他们比我更多地来自德克萨斯州，所以区别只是我是白人？ 正确的。 因为我是，我的意思是我不是，那住在那里的墨西哥人呢？他们比我、意大利人和德国人对德克萨斯州有更深的文化历史根源，确实引起了其他右翼人士的强烈反对。 埃里克·埃里克森（Eric Erickson）是一位保守派电台主持人，我认为他是一个非常好的人，我喜欢他所说的很多内容。 他写了一篇关于这些白人民族主义团体右翼渗透的长文，这在目前来说绝对是一个现象。 我的意思是，斯蒂芬妮·斯莱德（Stephanie Slade）在她在珠穆朗玛峰出版的《融合主义》一书中也观察到了这一点。 这是一本很棒的书。 这是一件事。 所以......是的，但我也想指出，我在时事通讯中写了这一点，有趣的是，这就是我们进行这场斗争的地方，因为实际上德克萨斯大学奥斯汀分校是平权行动战争中的一场重要战斗。 正确的。 就像，让我们记住你所抱怨的事情，有太多高绩效移民，我的意思是他们甚至不是移民，而是这所大学的高绩效少数族裔。 这是保守派和自由主义法律活动家为将其写入法律而奋斗了 40 年、30 年的一项原则。 在德克萨斯州遭遇挫折，对吗？ 我们说过，我们不希望大学能够根据种族录取学生。 是的，请提供一些实际法庭案件的历史。 这很有趣，因为如果你回到密歇根州，你会发现我的学校是 2003 年以来的两个重要案件，格拉茨和格鲁特。最高法院对平权行动的裁决令人着迷的是，直到格拉茨和格鲁特支持基于种族的招生，允许存在种族歧视……但是，你可以做到，因为种族多元化的校园对所有其他学生都有好处。 是的。 因此，您可以出于这个原因这样做。 因此，每个支持种族意识招生的人都必须改变他们的论点。 你可以看出他们从来没有真正相信过。 而且因为它需要多样性到极端伪科学的水平才能说校园会更好，如果有...... 9%的黑人和 12%的拉美裔，好吧，但混血人群呢，这到底是什么，就像完全说不通，但最高法院迫使他们提出这个论点，因为这是唯一被接受的方式，这样他们才能继续实行有意识的种族招生，他们就保留了这一点。所以在密歇根，其中一个案件是本科招生，另一个案件是法学院招生。我记得他们推翻了本科招生案，本科案只是说如果你属于某个少数族裔，你在招生中会获得一大笔加分。这很奇怪……比完美的 SAT 分数还要多得多，简直……真的太过分了。他们说那太多了。但法学院……获得的分数比例较小，所以他们认为那可以。

Yeah.

中文：是的。

So that's how it endured for a long time. And they brought a case, Fisher versus Texas, and they brought it in 2013 and 2016, and they lost both times. The court said... It's not, it's, it's slight enough. They can keep considering race. Because I think that the school took like the top 10% of every person from their high school class. And then if you're not in that pool, you could get in based on a bunch of things.

中文：所以这就是它能够持续很长时间的原因。他们提起了一个案件，费舍尔诉德克萨斯州，他们在 2013 年和 2016 年提起了诉讼，但两次都败诉。法院说……这不，这很轻微。他们可以继续考虑种族因素。因为我认为学校会从每个高中的班级里取前 10%的人。如果你不在这个范围内，你也可以根据许多其他因素被录取。

One of the things would be race.

中文：其中一件事会是种族。

We don't want this. I don't want, I think this is wrong. I think this violates civil rights law. I don't think you should lose your place in admissions because someone else who has slightly lower scores than you or slightly lower whatever, but is a racial minority, they should get in ahead of you. I think that's wrong. I think that just is racial discrimination and we should not do it. I think it's fine to do affirmative action if it means like letting people know that they should apply to this school, like doing outreach to places that have not been admitted in the past. But when push comes to shove, you just have to admit the most qualified people and it should be race blind. And you know what? If it's all Asians at your school at the end of that or all Jewish people or all... Bisexual, quadriplegic, Latinos, that I don't care, whatever, whoever does the best, right? That's what we fought for. That is genuinely the principle. And in fact, the harms to the Asian community were advanced in the lawsuit that did succeed, the Harvard one, where it was very front and center that Harvard considered Asians to be stereotypically less like interesting than other people. And we're like, oh, this was too Asian-y, let's not admit them. Like they had transcripts of them saying that. Yeah. So long story short, we won. Supreme Court 2023 says no more. It's effectively illegal now. Can't do it anymore. We won. So now whoever is at the campus is just the most qualified students. Guess what? That's a lot of Indian people and now conservatives are mad about it. What did you think this was gonna just result in just white people? Cause then if it's like, okay, you don't want to do progressive race-based stuff where you help uplift So there's some racism going on. Yeah. And it's just like it's weird to look at the photo and try to I get I hate having to do racial characterization. Yeah. Go like is that an Indian person? What does it matter if it is? Like what it like. What are they supposed to look at when they see me? Like, you and I are thought of as, we're whites, we're very light-skinned people. Yeah, well you're Italian. But I'm an Italian, you're a Swiss or something? I'm all good. I don't know what the fuck that is. Yeah, I could get into UT Austin. No problem. It's just weird, and... And I was thinking about how the left wokeness drove us all crazy with race, race, race. Think about race. Why aren't you thinking about race? Here's a photo of, you know, a corporate board or a team or whatever and it's all a bunch of white dudes and we're mad. And we want you to know how mad we are and how exhausting that was. Yeah. Now look who's doing it. Yeah. It's the right. Right. They take a photo of a good thing and they say, oh, I, there's not enough, no, there's not enough white people. Yeah, the calipers come out, yeah. It's pretty gross stuff. I agree, I agree. It's, yeah, pretty despicable, pretty despicable. It should be, it should be condemned. It's being condemned, obviously, by a lot of people on the right, but it should be condemned more forcefully from political figures like Ken Paxton, obviously. Immediately pivoted toward James Tallarico's The Real Racist. You know, this is a, this requires, the vice president is married to an Indian lady and has Indian looking children. So if you were looking at a photo, Ben Shapiro made this point, if you were looking at a photo of his family, would you say the same thing? Right. That this isn't my America. Maybe he should condemn it a little bit more strongly. Yeah, probably. Just saying. Yeah. Just saying. He's got to play footsie with those people, right? This is a pretty noxious, noxious trend, I think. Yeah, I agree. It's not good. Yeah. It's weird how I think, like, I don't know, online universes have... You know, collapse standards in a way. And, you know, it's done the thing that people predicted the internet would do, which is kind of like democratize influence, right? Where gadflies can now have the ear of the vice president or whoever, but Back in the day, this was kind of viewed as like, oh, this will be a utopian thing, right? More perspectives and a more open discourse. And instead, it's just kind of like a spin the wheel of like which crazies and repugnant people can now have major influence over policy. Yeah, it's.

中文：我们不想要这个。 我不想，我认为这是错误的。 我认为这违反了民权法。 我认为你不应该因为其他人的分数比你低一点或者比你低一点，但属于少数族裔而失去你的录取名额，他们应该在你之前被录取。 我认为这是错误的。 我认为这就是种族歧视，我们不应该这样做。 我认为采取平权行动是可以的，如果这意味着让人们知道他们应该申请这所学校，比如向过去没有被录取的地方进行推广。 但到了紧要关头，你只需要接纳最有资格的人，并且应该不分种族。 你知道吗？ 如果最后你们学校里都是亚洲人，或者都是犹太人，或者都是……双性恋、四肢瘫痪、拉丁裔，我不在乎，不管怎样，谁做得最好，对吧？ 这就是我们为之奋斗的目标。 这确实是原则。 事实上，对亚裔社区的伤害在哈佛那起成功的诉讼中得到了进一步的体现，哈佛认为亚洲人在刻板印象中不如其他人有趣。 我们就像，哦，这太亚洲化了，我们不要承认他们。 就像他们有他们所说的文字记录一样。 是的。 长话短说，我们赢了。 最高法院 2023 不再多说。 现在它实际上是非法的。 不能再这样了。 我们赢了。 所以现在校园里的人都是最有资格的学生。 你猜怎么着？ 印度有很多人，现在保守派对此感到愤怒。 你认为这只会导致白人的结果是什么？ 因为如果它就像，好吧，你不想做一些进步的基于种族的事情，你可以帮助提升，那么就会出现一些种族主义。 是的。 就像看着照片并尝试去了解我讨厌进行种族特征描述一样很奇怪。 是的。 看看那是印度人吗？ 如果是的话又有什么关系呢？ 喜欢它喜欢什么。 当他们看到我时应该看什么？ 就像，你和我被认为是白人，我们是浅肤色的人。 是的，你是意大利人。 但我是意大利人，你是瑞士人还是什么？ 我一切都好。 我不知道那是什么鬼东西。 是的，我可以进入德州大学奥斯汀分校。 没问题。 这很奇怪，而且... 我在想左觉醒是如何让我们所有人为种族、种族、种族而疯狂的。 想想种族。 你为什么不考虑种族问题？ 这是一张公司董事会或团队或其他什么的照片，里面都是一群白人，我们很生气。 我们想让你知道我们有多生气以及那是多么令人筋疲力尽。 是的。 现在看看是谁干的。 是的。 这是正确的。 正确的。 他们拍了一张好东西的照片，然后说，哦，我，没有足够的，不，没有足够的白人。 是的，卡钳出来了，是的。 这是非常恶心的东西。 我同意，我同意。 是啊，真是太卑鄙了，太卑鄙了。 应该的，应该受到谴责。 显然，它受到了很多右翼人士的谴责，但显然，像肯·帕克斯顿这样的政治人物应该更强烈地谴责它。 立即转向詹姆斯·塔拉里科的《真正的种族主义者》。 你知道，这是一个，这要求副总统娶了一位印度女士，并且有印度人的孩子。 所以，如果你看一张照片，本·夏皮罗（Ben Shapiro）提出了这一点，如果你看他家人的照片，你会说同样的话吗？ 正确的。 这不是我的美国。 也许他应该更强烈地谴责它。是的，可能吧。只是顺便说说。是的。只是顺便说说。他得跟那些人玩得很近，对吧？我觉得这是一个相当恶劣的趋势。是的，我同意。这不好。是的。我觉得很奇怪，比如说，我不知道，网络世界有……你懂的，在某种程度上压缩了标准。而且，你知道，它实现了人们预测互联网会做的事情，也就是某种程度上让影响力民主化，对吧？那些讨厌的人现在也能让副总统或者其他人听到他们的声音，但以前，这种情况被视为一种乌托邦的事情，对吧？更多的观点和更开放的讨论。相反，现在它就像抽奖一样，看看哪些疯狂而令人厌恶的人现在可以对政策产生重大影响。是的，就是这样。

50:00 - 60:00

Um, it's funny, um, yeah, it would be great to hear J.D. Vance maybe be a little more forceful.

中文：嗯，这很有趣，嗯，是的，如果能听到 J.D. Vance 更有力一点的话，那就太好了。

Rod Dreher, a conservative writer, asked him to do so and said they had a falling out over it and they're no longer friends. No, he's come back and said they've made up and he supports Vance. Did he say that? Good old Rod. Um. A lightning rod. Yeah, very. Lightning rod over there. Yeah, don't call him a weatherman. I really enjoy his writing a lot of the time. I do too. It's fascinating even though... I've never met him in... We've been at like the same events. I don't think we've ever really talked. Yeah.

中文：保守派作家罗德·德雷尔（Rod Dreher）曾要求他这样做，并说他们因此闹翻了，现在不再是朋友。不，他后来又回来表示他们已经和解，并且他支持范斯。他说过这话吗？好老罗。嗯，一个导雷针。是啊，那里可是很有闪电性的。别叫他气象员。我很多时候真的很喜欢他的写作。我也是。虽然……很吸引人，尽管……我从来没见过他……我们参加过同样的活动。我觉得我们从来没真正说过话。

Can I say something? He's been nice about my work over the years.

中文：我可以说点什么吗？这些年来他对我的工作一直很友好。

He's quoted me a lot. Yeah, I enjoy reading the stuff he writes. Something that, this is like a minor issue in this whole controversy and the primary thing to say is like racism bad and what this Beau French guy was doing is just unadulterated racism. Yeah. It does kind of piss me off a little bit when you have someone like Karl Rove going out and making this big moral stand about how for the first time in 30 years I'll be voting for the Democrat because country over party. It's like, okay, good, but A, I don't know how much of a pat on the back you want from not being a literal racist. And secondly, it's like, you were a slime ball in every way. Every other possible way, you know, just like the fact that you haven't gone full in on like Republican racism. I got a soft spot for good old Karl Rove. Just in terms of his TV commentary, I find enjoyable to listen to. I mean, he's not the worst of these folks, but... And also the harms he caused were like, they were like 20 years ago, man.

中文：他引用了我很多次。是的，我喜欢读他写的东西。这件事在整个争议中算是小问题，主要要说的是种族主义不好，而这个 Beau French 家伙所做的事情就是纯粹的种族主义。是的，当你看到像 Karl Rove 这样的人出来大谈道德立场，说这是 30 年来第一次投票给民主党人，因为国家重于党派时，我确实有点生气。就像，好吧，没问题，但首先，我不知道你因为没有成为一个真正的种族主义者而想要多少个赞。其次，你在其他方面都是个卑鄙的人，你知道，只是因为你还没有完全投入共和党的种族主义而已。我对老 Karl Rove 还是有一点好感的。就他的电视评论来说，我听着还挺享受的。我的意思是，他在这些人中还不是最差的，但是……而且他造成的伤害都已经是 20 年前的事情了，伙计。

Then it's still bad. Oh, yeah. Okay. So what's the, yeah. How does effective altruism work for like appraising people in the past? Right? It's like if the future is like exponentially growing utility, does like the harms of the past mean like exponentially like shrinking relevance and utility?

中文：那它还是不好。哦，是的。好的。那么，是的。那么有效利他主义是如何评估过去的人呢？对吧？就像如果未来的效用呈指数增长，过去的伤害是否意味着相关性和效用会呈指数下降？

And so like we're constantly having to upgrade our reputation of historic or evaluation of historic figures. Maybe. Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, we'll ask him. We'll ask him. Yeah, let him know. Yeah, we'll be like, well, yeah, you shouldn't be eating shrimp regardless. At the same time, unlike us, for similar reasons, this tweet also bugged me that I'll put up from Claire Valdez, who's one of those DSA people. Yeah, I was running for Congress. Here's her tweet, you know, talking about her run to. 215 years ago Mexicans fought an empire that demanded our land and our labor and we won. I'll carry that fight with me to Congress as New York's first Mexican-American representative. And I'm strengthened not just by Mexico's history but its present. Last month I met comrades in Morena or standing up to the empires and the corporations, building a government for the working class. Viva la independencia, viva Mexico. You're running for Congress of America, of the U.S.

中文：所以，我们好像必须不断地升级我们对历史人物声誉的评价。也许吧。是的，我不知道。是的，我们会问他。会问他的。是的，让他知道。是的，我们会说，好吧，你无论如何都不应该吃虾。与此同时，不同于我们，出于类似原因，这条来自 Claire Valdez 的推文也让我很烦，她是那些 DSA 的人之一。是的，我当时在竞选国会席位。这是她的推文，你知道，谈论她的竞选："215 年前，墨西哥人对抗了一个要求我们土地和劳动力的帝国，而我们赢了。我将在国会中继续这场斗争，成为纽约首位墨西哥裔美国代表。而且不仅是墨西哥的历史让我坚强，它的现实也让我坚强。上个月，我在 Morena 遇到了同志，他们正对抗帝国和企业，为工人阶级建立政府。独立万岁，墨西哥万岁。"你是在竞选美国国会席位，对吗？

Yeah, you don't need to be fighting Napoleon III.

中文：是啊，你不需要去跟拿破仑三世作战。

What are you, what, like... Why is this relevant? Yeah. That you, see this is... That's like, this is a failure to assimilate.

中文：你是什么，你，像是... 这为什么相关？是啊。你看，这就是... 这就像，这是无法同化的失败。

Right? Yeah. No, but she's doing the thing that the right people, both of these people make me mad. Like, oh, my great, great ancestors, right, fought for Mexico or against Mexico. I don't give a fuck. Yeah. I don't care. Like, and you...

中文：对吧？是的。不，但她在做那件对的事情，这两个人都让我生气。就像，哦，我的伟大的祖先，对吧，为墨西哥而战或反对墨西哥。我才不管呢。是的，我不在乎。就像，你……

You think this gives you power over me? Like, I don't care that you're on either side. When, you know, conservatives go, oh, we came over on the Mayflower and we fought the Comanche. Don't care. Or she's like, my Comanche ancestors fight. Also don't care. I don't care. It doesn't matter anymore.

中文：你以为这能让你对我有权力吗？就像，我才不在乎你站哪一边呢。当你知道，保守派的人会说，哦，我们乘五月花号来的，还打过科曼奇人。我才不在乎呢。或者她会说，我的科曼奇祖先也曾作战。我也不在乎。我才不在乎，这已经不重要了。

This is the new world. Yeah, get over it. Right. These are old world issues. We don't care. This is America. And you know what? We got rockets to build and money to make. My grandfather arrived here, Italian immigrant, and the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor and he signed up to go kill Japanese people because his country got blown up. Like... He was mad about that. That's what I come from. But I don't like lord that over others. And I think that's a pretty noble thing, like assimilated immediately, right? Had no, did not feel loyalty to the Italians who are fighting on the sides of the German and the Japanese. And I think that's noble. But I'm not like lording that over other people. I don't think that matters in any way, shape, or form.

中文：这是新世界。是的，接受吧。对。这些是旧世界的问题。我们不在乎。这是美国。你知道吗？我们有火箭要建造，有钱要赚。我的祖父来到这里，意大利移民，然后日本轰炸了珍珠港，他报名去杀日本人，因为他的国家被炸了。就像……他为此很生气。这就是我的来历。但我不喜欢把这个拿来炫耀。而且我觉得这是非常崇高的事情，比如立即同化，对吧？根本没有，也不觉得对那些站在德国和日本一边作战的意大利人有忠诚感。我觉得这是高尚的。但我并不是拿这个去压别人。我认为这在任何方式、形态或形式上都不重要。

But don't come at me with, man, like you marched next to, you know, whoever, General Fuss and Feathers. Yeah. The Mexican War. On either side. I don't care. No one cares. I mean, we care that it's interesting. Like it is interesting to trace one. This is like the theme of today's show. How much do we value the future and how much do we value the past? I certainly think it's admirable to know something about where you come from and to teach that to your own children or to share that with interested people. It's interesting. To have pride in your heritage. Sure.

中文：但是别对我说，伙计，你知道，你就像跟着某某上将走过一样，嗯，羽毛上将。对，墨西哥战争。无论哪一方。我不在乎。没有人在乎。我的意思是，我们在乎它有趣。这确实很有趣去追溯历史。这就是今天节目的主题。我们到底有多重视未来，又有多重视过去？我当然认为了解自己来自哪里并把这些知识传授给自己的孩子，或者与有兴趣的人分享，这是值得赞赏的。这很有趣，为自己的传统感到自豪。当然。

Sure. But that doesn't make you any better or any more American, doesn't give you any more of a say in anything. It's not good for anything. Sorry. And if you think it is, go to some country where we care about titles.

中文：当然。但那并不会让你更优秀，也不会让你更像美国人，也不会让你在任何事情上有更多发言权。这对任何事情都没好处。抱歉。如果你认为有用，那就去一些我们在乎头衔的国家吧。

Go back to the old world where it matters that you're descended from the Archduke of whoever gives a fuck. Yeah. We do not care about that here. Doug Stanhope, libertarian comedian, he has a great bit about this, just like railing into nationalism. Or it's like, oh, you know, the French, we saved their asses in World War II. He's like, really, we did that? Oh, yeah. Yeah. That's hilarious. Yeah. Yeah. My ancestors, you know, they got off the boat and they cut a swath through the north. Yeah. And burned villages to the ground. You don't see me bragging about that. Just kidding, of course. We got here in the 1890s when everything was a little settled down. Yeah. Yeah. Mostly settled. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So it's just, uh, Just live in the here and now. Yeah, also, yeah, appreciate America, you know? We got a good thing. We got a good thing, guys. Yeah, don't ruin it. Yeah, it's, you know the bit in The Sopranos when the character Furio, he's like crying because he's in love with Tony's wife, but his father just died.

中文：回到旧世界吧，在那里，重要的是你是大公的后裔，无论谁在乎。 是的。 我们在这里不关心这个。 道格·斯坦霍普（Doug Stanhope），自由主义喜剧演员，他对此有很多看法，就像抨击民族主义一样。 或者就像，哦，你知道，法国人，我们在第二次世界大战中救了他们的屁股。 他说，真的，我们做到了？ 哦，是的。 是的。 太搞笑了。 是的。 是的。 你知道，我的祖先下了船，他们在北方开辟了一条土地。 是的。 并将村庄夷为平地。 你没看到我在吹嘘这一点。 当然，只是开玩笑。 我们在 1890 年代来到这里，当时一切都稍微安定下来了。 是的。 是的。 基本都安定下来了。 是的。 是的。 是的。 所以，呃，就活在此时此地。 是的，还有，是的，欣赏美国，你知道吗？ 我们得到了一件好事。 伙计们，我们得到了一件好事。 是啊，别毁了它。 是的，你知道《黑道家族》中的角色福里奥（Furio），他因为爱上托尼的妻子而哭泣，但他的父亲刚刚去世。

Tony gets to the car and he's like drying his eyes. He's like, what's going on? He's like, I'm just sad for my father.

中文：托尼走到车旁，他一边擦眼睛一边说。他说，这是怎么回事？他说，我只是为我父亲感到难过。

And he's like, okay, but you gotta get over it. Yeah, that's, that's how both the right and the left should behave. That's how I feel about the Mexican-American war.

中文：他就像，好的，但你必须克服它。是的，那就是左右两边都应该表现的方式。这就是我对美墨战争的看法。

I don't care. That was like a long time ago. It was like a really long time ago. Yeah, it's kind of psychotic to...

中文：我不在乎。那是很久以前的事情了。那真的是很久以前的事情了。是的，这有点疯狂地...

Yeah, to be running on that for, to represent a district in New York. Yeah, you know, I, um... It's not even like a district along the Rio Grande or something. This does not bode well for how she will serve in Congress. Right. Yeah. No, not at all. Yeah. This history podcast really like the rest is history. It's very popular. But they just recently did a series on the troubles in Northern Ireland. Right. You know, like Catholics versus Protestants.

中文：是啊，要在那上面竞选，代表纽约的一个选区。是的，你知道，我，嗯……甚至这都不是像里奥格兰德沿岸的选区之类的。这对她在国会的服务表现可不是什么好兆头。对。是的，不，一点也不。是的。这个历史播客真的就像《剩下的都是历史》一样，非常受欢迎。但他们最近做了一系列关于北爱尔兰动乱的节目。对，你知道的，比如天主教徒和新教徒之间的矛盾。

Mm hmm.

中文：嗯嗯。

Um, and like effectively the conflict boils down to like competing for slots in public housing. It's like, already this is ridiculous. And like, you'd think I'd have more sympathy for like the Catholics in Northern Ireland just because they're my co-religionists.

中文：嗯，实际上冲突归根结底就是争夺公共住房名额。这已经很荒谬了。而且，你会以为我会对北爱尔兰的天主教徒更有同情心，仅仅因为他们和我同宗教。

But like everyone in the conflict is an awful terrorist.

中文：但好像冲突中的每个人都是可怕的恐怖分子。

Wait, you're, you're, it's the, the, the Protestant North. You'd be, oh, that's me. Somebody's calling me, sorry. Your sympathy should be with the Catholic Ireland. Well, there's the, yeah, so there's Catholic Ireland, but then there's the Catholics in Northern Ireland who are the minority and are being discriminated against or whatever. Right.

中文：等等，你，你，你这是，那个，新教的北方。你会是，哦，那是我。有人在叫我，对不起。你的同情心应该在天主教爱尔兰。嗯，就是那个，是的，所以有天主教爱尔兰，但北爱尔兰也有天主教徒，他们是少数群体，并且受到歧视或什么的。对吧。

But like the entire, like A, everyone's just like a terrorist. And so it's like, yeah.

中文：但是就像整个，比如说 A，每个人都像是恐怖分子。所以就是，嗯。

And secondly, it's like, yeah, like get over it. Just stop. Yeah. Like if, you know, Northern Ireland sucks, right?

中文：其次，就像，是啊，就别放在心上。就停吧。是的。就像，如果，你知道，北爱尔兰很糟，对吧？

Like if it's that bad there, literally move to Ireland or move to the United States or whatever else. Like, yeah.

中文：如果那里真的那么糟，就真的搬到爱尔兰或者搬到美国，或者其他地方。就是，嗯。

I understand you have some legitimate grievances maybe, but like why does the sectarianism drive you to, you know, bombing department stores? I appreciate that it's one of the only places that's still doing like the 30 Years War. Right, yeah.

中文：我理解你可能有一些合理的抱怨，但像为什么宗派主义会驱使你去，你知道的，炸百货商店？我理解那是唯一仍在进行类似三十年战争的地方之一。对，是的。

There's not a lot of Protestant versus Catholic fighting. Right.

中文：天主教和新教之间并没有太多的冲突。对吧。

Mostly we've just learned to actually be kind of on the same team. Yeah. But there it's still… Still going. It's still the 1630s there. Still going, yeah. Good stuff. Yeah, it's ludicrous. Yeah, or I watched, yeah, another one I watched, have you ever seen the movie Incendies? I've heard, which movie is that? It's Danny Villeneuve who's directed Doom. This is one of his first movies in French. And it's about basically, like the country's not named, but it's like a fictionalized version

中文：大多数时候我们只是学会了实际上算是在同一条队伍上。是的。但那里仍然……仍在继续。那时候还是 1630 年代。仍然在继续，是的。好东西。是的，简直荒谬。是的，或者我看过的，另一个我看过的，你看过电影《烈焰焚身》吗？我听说过，那是哪部电影？是丹尼·维伦纽瓦执导的，他也执导过《毁灭战士》。这是他早期的一部法语电影。基本上讲的是，虽然没有具体提到国家，但它像是一个虚构的版本

of the Lebanese Civil War and the aftermath. Oh, that's the one with the brother is the... We don't want to spoil it. We don't want to spoil it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's excellent. It's great. I highly recommend it. But it's, I mean, the whole movie is like a conceit about how sectarianism is awful and civil wars are bad. And it's very interesting because it covers the civil war of Muslims versus Christians and, you know...

中文：关于黎巴嫩内战及其后果。哦，就是那个兄弟是……我们不想剧透。我们不想剧透。是的，是的，是的。它很棒，非常棒。我强烈推荐。但我的意思是，整部电影本身就是一个关于宗派主义可怕和内战糟糕的意象。而且非常有趣，因为它涉及到穆斯林与基督徒之间的内战，嗯……

So, let's get started. Guys, what do we, yeah, you're, you have, you know, this doesn't really have anything to do with your values if you're like blowing up buses full of children, right? Because you're Christians? Right. It's not a very Christian thing to do. Yeah, leave the sectarianism behind. What if you're blowing them up because you're afraid that they're going to build... I don't know. Okay, what else we got on the list? Hasan Piker said some things, the whole interview is not out, but he had an interview with that Axios semaphore, Alec Thompson. The whole thing's not out, but there was just a clip of it, and Alec Thompson asked him, do you really think like... The U.S. government is worse than al-Qaeda. And he says, well, yeah, pound for pound, it's not the correct use of that phrase, but the U.S. government has killed more people than al-Qaeda.

中文：那么，我们开始吧。伙计们，我们应该，嗯，你，你有，你知道，如果你正在炸掉满载孩子的公共汽车，这其实跟你的价值观没什么关系，对吧？因为你是基督徒吗？对吧。这可不是什么很基督徒的行为。是的，把宗派主义抛在一边。如果你炸它们是因为你害怕他们会建……我不知道。好吧，列表上还有什么？Hasan Piker 说了一些事情，整个采访还没公开，但他接受了 Axios 的 Alec Thompson 的采访。整个采访还没发布，但有一段片段，Alec Thompson 问他，你真的认为……美国政府比基地组织更糟吗。他说，嗯，是的，逐人计算，这个词语用得不完全正确，但美国政府杀的人比基地组织更多。

60:00 - 70:00

Okay.

中文：好的。

Which, so two things. One, okay, if that's just your, like most people killed, but it's true the U.S. government has killed more people than al-Qaeda. But you know who's killed even more people than the U.S. government? China. The Chinese government. Yeah.

中文：所以，有两件事。第一，好吧，如果那只是你的说法，大多数人是这样认为的，但确实美国政府杀的人比基地组织还多。但你知道谁杀的人比美国政府还多吗？中国。中国政府。是的。

And again, he praises them and dresses, and they killed more people.

中文：他再次称赞他们和服装，然后他们又杀了更多的人。

Right, and then it gets into, I mean, maybe this is kind of gross, but like, you can justifiably or correctly kill someone in defense. Like, we killed a lot of Nazis in World War II, but that was justifiable. Right.

中文：对，然后它谈到了，我的意思是，也许这有点恶心，但就像，你可以在自卫中正当或正确地杀人。比如说，我们在二战中杀了很多纳粹，但那是正当的。对。

Because we were at war with them. Yeah, depending on your perspective. Yeah. Some people would say it was justifiable. The Japanese, justifiable. So, you know, it can't just be like straight up. Like people killed. Right. And the Chinese killed a lot of people by doing bad economic planning that resulted in mass starvation. Right. And then shooting of dissenters.

中文：因为我们当时正与他们交战。是的，这取决于你的观点。是的。有些人会说这是合理的。日本人的行为是合理的。所以，你知道，这不能被简单地认为。人们被杀了，对吧。而中国人通过糟糕的经济计划导致大规模饥荒，也杀了很多人。对，然后还有对异见者的枪击。

Yeah. We don't – this is a good thing about America. We don't shoot a lot of dissenters in the country. There are, of course, egregious cases of the First Amendment being mishandled. There was, you know, the – Eugene V. Debs imprisoned, you know, people have been imprisoned wrongfully. Did it happen? It still happened. I'm not saying it never happens, but we've never been a country where they round up all the people criticizing the government and shoot them. Yeah, that's just not characterized American history. It's a very good thing because that happens in a lot of places.

中文：是的。我们没有——这是美国的一件好事。我们不会在国内射杀很多持不同政见的人。当然，也有一些严重的违反第一修正案的案例。你知道的，比如尤金·V·德布斯被监禁，人们也曾被错误地监禁。发生过吗？确实发生过。我不是说从未发生过，但我们从来不是一个会把所有批评政府的人抓起来射杀的国家。是的，这并不代表美国历史的特点。这是一件非常好的事情，因为这种事情在很多地方都会发生。

Yeah.

中文：是的。

Where they just kill everyone who's objecting to what the government's doing.

中文：他们只是杀掉所有反对政府所做事情的人。

Right.

中文：对。

We don't do that here. No. So it's a really good thing about us. Yeah. I mean, I think we, I could be getting this wrong, but I think we executed like one confederate for war crimes. Yes. The guy who ran the like military prison, right? Yeah. For the most part, we didn't even like shoot the people who rebelled against, I mean, we

中文：我们这里不干那个。不。所以这是我们的一件非常好的事情。是的。我的意思是，我认为我们，我可能说错了，但我记得我们因为战争罪行处决过一个南方邦联的人。是的。就是那个管理军事监狱的人，对吧？是的。大多数情况下，我们甚至没有射杀那些反抗的人，我是说，我们

shot them while we were fighting them. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But when it was done, it was done. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And some Lincoln conspirators too. Yeah. And like that's...

中文：在我们与他们作战的时候射了他们。是的，是的，是的。但当它结束时，就结束了。嗯哼。是的。还有一些林肯阴谋者。是的。就像那样……

The liberals wanted to shoot them more. Right. Yeah, right. The radicals at the time and they're like liberals now were like we should have killed them more. Yeah, right, yeah. But we did it, and I think that's a commendable thing. That's something else we can pat ourselves on the back for. They're our countrymen now. Yep. That was Grant's attitude. Despite their best efforts. Grant's a pretty cool guy. Yeah. Probably not a very good president. Yeah. But, and you can make some criticisms of his generalship, but yeah, I feel like someone who kind of, Glocked the tragedy of war and his own role in it, but like nevertheless was a trooper and was like, okay, well, we got to get it done. And he handled the end of it pretty well for the purpose of just having peace.

中文：自由派想要射杀他们更多。对。是啊，没错。当时的激进分子，现在像自由派的人，就像我们应该杀得更多。是啊，没错，是啊。但我们做到了，我认为这是值得称赞的事情。这是我们可以自我表扬的另一件事。他们现在是我们的同胞了。没错。这就是格兰特的态度。尽管他们尽了最大努力。格兰特是个相当酷的人。是啊。可能不是一个非常好的总统。是啊。但是，你可以对他的将军才能提出一些批评，但我觉得他是一个某种程度上承受了战争悲剧及自身角色的人，但尽管如此，他还是一个勇敢的人，并且说，好吧，我们必须完成它。他处理结局的方式相当不错，为的只是实现和平。

Yeah. Yeah.

中文：嗯。嗯。

I can imagine things having gone a lot worse or even falling into conflict again with someone else handling that period of time. Yeah, it's interesting at the, um, I mean, definitely like you crush a rebellion. Yeah. The normal historical thing to do is round up the dissenters and kill them.

中文：我可以想象事情可能会变得更糟，甚至在另一个人处理那段时间时再次陷入冲突。是的，这很有趣，嗯，我的意思是，肯定就像你镇压了一场叛乱一样。是的，正常的历史做法是把反对者聚集起来然后杀掉他们。

Right. Right. And if you don't do that, the other normal thing is for there to just be another rebellion.

中文：对，对。如果你不那样做，另一种正常的情况就是会发生另一次叛乱。

Right. Exactly. And the killing goes on. Yeah. Right.

中文：对。没错。杀戮还在继续。是的。对。

The reason you crush the rebellion without mercy is to, so that you don't have another rebellion.

中文：你无情镇压叛乱的原因是为了不再发生另一场叛乱。

Right. Yeah. And I mean, obviously there was a lot of, you know, racial violence after the civil war and reprisals and, um. Gorilla-like conflict with the KKK, but it was not... Right, I mean the federal government was in, was rocking a hard place between taking that more seriously... And then also kind of like imposing a military dictatorship in perpetuity. Yeah. Right. And, no, I mean I think... It was a difficult trade-off. Mistakes were made, but like... For sure, but it was difficult trade-offs. And we also, yeah, we didn't do like the French revolutionaries in the Vendee or whatever, right? No, we did not. And just like crush them beneath our horse hooves or whatever the horrible quote is. Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting. At the end of the American Revolution, there's this episode called The Newberg Conspiracy. I don't know if you're familiar with it. I've heard of that one. Yeah, I wrote about it for our 250th anniversary. We did like little profiles of the presidents or heroes of the 250th. I wrote about George Washington. But since this moment where the war is basically over, The American army is camped outside of New York, which the British are still occupying, and we're winding it down and the soldiers are like, hey, you promised us like pay and pensions and Congress is like not appropriating that. What's going on here? And so, you know, letters start to circulate amongst the troops saying like, hey, maybe we should just lik Figurehead that they were, you know, that will be the leader of this new country and that he'll install himself as a powerful executive, right? Which every other historical example would tell you like this is exactly what he'll do. That person will absolutely do that. Cromwell.

中文：正确的。 是的。 我的意思是，显然在内战和报复之后发生了很多种族暴力和，嗯。 与三 K 党发生了大猩猩般的冲突，但事实并非如此……对，我的意思是联邦政府在更认真地对待这一问题之间摇摆不定……然后又有点像永久实行军事独裁。 是的。 正确的。 而且，不，我的意思是我认为……这是一个艰难的权衡。 犯了错误，但就像……当然，但这是一个艰难的权衡。 是的，我们也没有像旺代的法国革命者那样做，对吧？ 不，我们没有。 就像把他们压在我们的马蹄下或者无论什么可怕的引言一样。 是的。 是的，这很有趣。 在美国独立战争结束时，有一集叫做纽伯格阴谋。 不知道你是否熟悉。 我听说过那个。 是的，我在我们成立 250 周年纪念日时写了这篇文章。 我们确实喜欢 250 世纪的总统或英雄的小简介。 我写过关于乔治·华盛顿的文章。 但是从这个时候开始，战争基本上已经结束，美国军队驻扎在纽约外，而纽约仍被英国占领，我们正在逐渐结束战争，士兵们却在说，嘿，你答应过我们的薪水和养老金呢，而国会却没有拨款。这是怎么回事？于是，你知道，信件开始在部队中流传，说，嘿，也许我们应该就像象征人物那样，他们会成为这个新国家的领导人，他会将自己安插为一个强大的行政首脑，对吧？每一个历史上的例子都会告诉你，他绝对会这样做。那人绝对会那样做。克伦威尔。

Napoleon. Yeah. Caesar. Every time. Whoever.

中文：拿破仑。是的。凯撒。每次都是。不管是谁。

Yes, every single time. If you take this like no justice, no peace approach and they listen to him. Yeah, it's a very affecting moment. This is also just like great political showmanship where, you know, he's reading his remarks and yes, he pauses and he pulls out his spectacles. And he's like, I'm going to, you know, I'm paraphrasing, but it's like, forgive me for, you know, I've gone near blind in the service of my country. And they're just like, not a dry eye in the house. Done. Yeah. Yeah. This is another great thing about America though. It's like with a speech you stop the military coup that by like all laws of history should happen and ruin all of this. No. Yeah. This is the country Hasan Piker says he hates. Yeah. That Claire Valdez wants to celebrate Mexico defeating. Yep. Yep.

中文：是的，每一次都是这样。如果你采取“没有正义，就没有和平”的方式，而他们听他的。是的，这是一个非常感人的时刻。这也只是伟大的政治表演，你知道，他在读自己的讲话稿，是的，他会停顿一下，拿出眼镜。他就像在说，我是说，我在转述，但意思是，请原谅，我为了国家的服务几乎失明了。他们全场都泪流满面。完成。是的。是的。不过这也是美国的另一件伟大之处：通过一次演讲，你就能阻止按历史规律本该发生的军事政变，破坏这一切。不。是的。这就是 Hasan Piker 说他讨厌的国家。是的。Claire Valdez 想要庆祝墨西哥击败它。是的。是的。

Or struggling against. Thanks a lot lefties. Yeah.

中文：或者在挣扎反抗。非常感谢左派。是的。

Right. Good job. Yeah. And on the other side, this is a country just for six people who look like me right now. From the exact same shire. Who would not have been considered Americans. Yeah. Some stupid things going on. Real stupid things. Real stupid ideas. Yeah. And it's just going to get dumber. You know, it is going to get dumber. I'm worried about a lot of things about where the country is going, but like, we're America. Nothing bad ever really happens to us, right? Like, we kind of have plot armor when it comes to history. Like, it'll be all right. Yeah. Except 9-11. That was pretty bad. That was pretty bad. That was pretty bad. Yeah. I guess it could have been worse. Yeah. We thought it well, we don't need to, that was the last episode, we don't need to go through that again, we don't need to litigate 9-11. Never forget, but also, you know, it's not the labor of the points. There's a time and a place. And it's, you know, the days surrounding September 11th. Yeah, we can talk about it again once they figure out who did it and what happened. Just kidding, of course. Yeah. Yeah. Alright, let's do some culture. Yeah, what else? What's going on in your life? What are you... I've been re-watching... Talk about high concept comedies. I've been re-watching Frasier.

中文：正确的。 好工作。 是的。 另一方面，这个国家只有六个像我一样的人。 来自完全相同的郡。 谁不会被视为美国人。 是的。 一些愚蠢的事情正在发生。 真正愚蠢的事情。 真正愚蠢的想法。 是的。 而且它只会变得更加愚蠢。 你知道，它会变得更加愚蠢。 我担心很多关于这个国家的发展方向的事情，但就像，我们是美国。 我们从来没有发生过什么不好的事情，对吧？ 就像，当谈到历史时，我们有点有情节盔甲。 就像，一切都会好起来的。 是的。 9-11 除外。 那真是太糟糕了。 那真是太糟糕了。 那真是太糟糕了。 是的。 我想情况可能会更糟。 是的。 我们想得很好，我们不需要，那是最后一集，我们不需要再经历一遍，我们不需要对 9-11 提起诉讼。 永远不要忘记，而且，你知道，这不是点的劳动。 有时间和地点。 你知道，这是 9 月 11 日左右的日子。 是的，一旦他们弄清楚是谁干的以及发生了什么，我们就可以再次讨论这件事。 当然，只是开玩笑。 是的。 是的。 好吧，我们来搞点文化吧。 是啊，还有什么？ 你的生活发生了什么事？ 你是做什么的... 我一直在重看……说到高概念喜剧。我一直在重看《弗雷泽》。

Oh, you love Frasier. I fucking love Frasier. You are the ultimate Frasier stan. It's so funny. You're a Frasier fanatic. I don't know. Kelsey Grammer, he just like...

中文：哦，你喜欢《弗雷泽》。我他妈的爱《弗雷泽》。你是终极《弗雷泽》粉丝。太搞笑了。你是《弗雷泽》狂热爱好者。我不知道。凯尔西·格雷默，他就是那种……

I have, there's something about a TV show character who like just kind of loses it in the performance. That's why I love like Patrick Stewart

中文：我有，就是关于一个电视节目角色在表演中有点失控的事情。这就是为什么我喜欢帕特里克·斯图尔特

in The Next Generation, Star Trek, and Kelsey Grammer, or just like he has these moments where he just flies off the handle in the show and it's just so fucking funny. And also it's just like, it's such expertly crafted jokes, like in the technical sense, you know, because this is our podcast, we can do what we want. I will share my favorite one, actually. There's an episode where Frasier's brother Niles is going through a divorce. He was married to some rich heiress and she's cut him off. So he's got to economize and he's moving into some horrible apartment and he's moving into, particularly he's moving into a unit where the former occupant killed themselves. Which is becoming, you know, they're realizing this as they're like getting the tour, right? And, you know, the manager's like, oh, they left behind a four-slot toaster. And Frasier's like, oh, look at that, Niles. You can make a club sandwich and have a slice left over for a guest. Yeah.

中文：在《星际迷航：下一代》和凯尔西·格雷默中，或者就像他在节目中突然发脾气的那些瞬间一样，真的非常搞笑。而且，它们的笑点设计得非常专业，从技术角度来说，你知道的，因为这是我们的播客，我们想说什么就说什么。我实际上会分享我最喜欢的一集。有一集是弗雷泽的哥哥奈尔斯正在经历离婚。他曾经娶了一位富有的女继承人，但她已经断绝了对他的资助。所以他必须节省开支，搬进一个糟糕的公寓，更具体地说，他搬进的一套房子之前的住户自杀了。他们在参观时逐渐意识到这一点，对吧？然后，经理说，哦，他们留下了一个四片式烤面包机。弗雷泽说，哦，看看这个，奈尔斯，你可以做一个俱乐部三明治，还能剩下一片给客人。嗯。

70:00 - 80:00

So A, that's fucking hilarious already. But then it gets even better because, you know, through the course of the scene, Frasier like has to convince Niles like, "'Dude, this is where you live now. You gotta adjust to it." And he's like, "'Oh, of course, where are my manners? Can I get you some toast?' And it's like, an excellent joke is a setup for another excellent joke. It's like, that's just good writing. You can't beat that. I've watched a lot of Frasier. It was on like around the time we would have dinner, I don't know, when I was in high school. 7th, 8th grade, high school, somewhere around then, it would be like, we'd have the TV on, you know, we'd often have the TV on before and after dinner. And it was like Frasier, it was that David Spade show, Just Shoot Me. Okay, I don't remember that show. It was pretty funny. It was like those two back to back, and like Friends, I think, and something else, something like that. And yeah, so I watched a lot. It was funny. It was really funny. It's great. I always, but I always was like, how did this concept get pitched before? What was the concept that was pitched? It was like very unusual, bussy, TV, radio psychiatrist and his equally... His brother who's like a very similar character and their lives and that's the I'm like what what was it that like because it's a very funny show and it really works but what what was a spinoff right of Cheers? Yeah Frasier was a character on Cheers.

中文：所以 A，这已经太搞笑了。 但随后情况会变得更好，因为，你知道，在整个场景中，弗雷泽必须说服奈尔斯，“伙计，这就是你现在住的地方。你必须适应它。” 他就像，“哦，当然，我的礼貌在哪里？我可以给你一些吐司吗？” 这就好像，一个精彩的笑话是另一个精彩笑话的铺垫。 就好像，这只是写得很好。 你无法击败它。 我看过很多《欢乐一家亲》。 我不知道，大概是在我上高中的时候，我们吃晚饭的时候。 七年级、八年级、高中，大约在那时，我们会打开电视，你知道，我们经常在晚餐前后打开电视。 就像《弗雷泽》一样，是大卫·斯佩德的表演《Just Shoot Me》。 好吧，我不记得那个节目了。 这很有趣。 就像那两个人背靠背一样，我想，就像《老友记》一样，还有其他类似的东西。 是的，所以我看了很多。 这很有趣。 真的很有趣。 太棒了。 我总是，但我总是想，这个概念以前是如何提出的？ 提出的概念是什么？ 这就像非常不寻常、忙碌、电视、广播精神科医生以及他同样的……他的兄弟也是一个非常相似的角色，他们的生活，这就是我想说的那是什么，因为这是一个非常有趣的节目，它确实很有效，但那是什么衍生剧，对吧？是《欢呼吧》的衍生剧吗？是的，Frasier 是《欢呼吧》里的一个角色。

So that's what pitched it.

中文：所以那就是让它成功的原因。

Yeah and I get yeah I know a little bit about the backstory because like the writers initially were gonna do some like elder gentleman who had like a you know like Mexican healthcare worker in his home and like that was going to be the setup and they're like oh no we'll spin off the cheer show and have Frasier be the main character instead and then we'll have his father move in with him and then bring you know Daphne the healthcare worker and yeah another little bit of Frasier trivia I know is they were initially going to set it in not Seattle but Denver because they didn't want it they couldn't have it in Boston where cheers is set because they were like well that's just too much of a problem because it's like where are all the characters from cheers they would have to be involved in his life and we're not going to do that and So they're going to set it in Denver, but then when they were putting the show together, Colorado passed a ballot initiative banning gay marriage or there was some anti-gay referendum that passed. And so as like a protest, they move it to Seattle.

中文：是的，我明白了，是的，我对背景故事有一点了解，因为就像编剧最初会做一些像老绅士一样的事情，他家里有一个你知道的墨西哥医护人员，就像这将是一个设置，他们就像哦，不，我们将剥离啦啦队节目，让弗雷泽成为主角，然后我们会让他的父亲搬来和他一起住，然后让你认识医护人员达芙妮，是的，我知道另一点弗雷泽琐事是他们最初要去的 不是把它设置在西雅图而是丹佛，因为他们不想要它，他们不能在波士顿设置它，因为他们觉得这太麻烦了，因为这就像《欢呼》中的所有角色都在哪里，他们必须参与他的生活，我们不会这样做，所以他们打算把它设置在丹佛，但当他们准备演出时，科罗拉多州通过了一项禁止同性婚姻的投票倡议，或者有一些反同性恋公投 那过去了。 就像抗议一样，他们把它搬到了西雅图。

Yeah, it's interesting because like, you know, so many of the conceits of the show, the episodes revolve around. They used to do that. Uh, yeah, right. He's woke corporations. Yeah. Um, but, um, no, I meant banning gay marriage. Oh, right, right, right. Yeah. Not that long ago. Hopefully not again. Okay. Uh, California passed, uh, a ballot initiative banning, uh, gay marriage, right? Do you remember what year that was in?

中文：是啊，这很有趣，因为你知道，节目的很多自负和剧集都是围绕这个展开的。他们以前会那样做。嗯，对。他是唤醒了企业。嗯，但是，我的意思是禁止同性婚姻。哦，对，对，对。是的。不是很久以前。希望不会再发生了。好吧，加利福尼亚州通过了一项公投措施，禁止同性婚姻，对吧？你记得那是哪一年吗？

I know it was like 2008 or something. Yeah, 2008. 2008. Yeah. Five years later, it's legal across the country. Yeah. That's an issue where attitudes just like immediately shift. Well, if you look at polling, they've shifted the other way again. Has it actually? On gay marriage? Bad. Wow. Basically, just support among Republicans had reached like, it had reached like 60, 65% and has gone back down like rather, I mean, not to nothing, but to like under 50, I think. Yeah, interesting. I didn't know that. But yeah, I was reading... It's probably all my fault. I guess I ruined it for everybody. Yeah, I think you could, yeah, you know, maybe be a little more circumspect. Get it together. We joined the party at the wrong time anyway. Frasier. Yeah. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. So like so many of the episodes revolve around like them being trying to like, you know, climb the ladder in like old money, high society, right? They're always going to the opera and the theater and symphony and whatever else. And I was curious like, was that actually what Seattle was like in the 90s? Did they actually have like this old money elite? And I read a Seattle Times article that was talking about No, not really. But then, like, as Frasier went on, like, people started to, like, ape Frasier. And so, like, Frasier kind of, like, created the world. The culture in Seattle. Yeah, that, like, it used to be, yeah, you know, no one with money or influence wanted to be in the city and then... So, I remember one episode where I think they're enacting like a radio play on the radio. Ham radio is the episode.

中文：我知道那是 2008 年之类的。 是的，2008 年。2008 年。是的。 五年后，它在全国范围内合法化。 是的。 这是一个态度立即转变的问题。 好吧，如果你看看民意调查，他们又转向了另一个方向。 真的有吗？ 关于同性婚姻？ 坏的。 哇。 基本上，共和党人的支持率已经达到了 60%、65% 左右，然后又回落了，我的意思是，不是没有，而是下降到了 50% 以下，我认为。 是的，有趣。 我不知道。 但是，是的，我正在读书……这可能都是我的错。 我想我毁了每个人的生活。 是的，我认为你可以，是的，你知道，也许更谨慎一点。 把它放在一起。 无论如何，我们入党的时间不对。 弗雷泽。 是的。 哦，是啊，是啊，是啊。 所以很多剧集都围绕着他们试图喜欢，你知道，像老钱一样爬上上流社会的阶梯，对吗？ 他们总是去看歌剧、戏剧、交响乐等等。 我很好奇，这真的是 90 年代的西雅图吗？ 他们真的有这样的老钱精英吗？ 我读了《西雅图时报》的一篇文章，其中谈到“不，不是真的”。 但是然后呢，随着《弗雷泽》的继续播放，人们开始模仿弗雷泽。所以，弗雷泽有点像创造了这个世界。西雅图的文化。是的，那个，过去是的，你知道的，没有钱或者影响力的人不想待在这个城市，然后……所以，我记得有一集，我觉得他们在广播上演一部广播剧。那集叫《业余无线电》.

It's so funny. And they, yeah, either Frasier or Niles, like I remember which describes shooting everyone and himself with the gun at the end. And I remember like I couldn't, I couldn't finish. I was laughing so hard I could not keep my food down. It was good stuff.

中文：太好笑了。他们，嗯，Frasier 或 Niles 中的一个，我记不清是哪个，描述了最后用枪射击所有人和他自己。我记得我根本没法看完，我笑得太厉害了，无法控制自己不把食物吐出来。真是好东西。

Yeah, I liked a lot of those comedy. You know, I liked Friends and Just Shoot Me and just the things that were on TV that there were 8,000 episodes of. Yeah, sure. Family Matters. Did you ever watch that one? No, I didn't. Oh, yeah, actually I did. Yeah, sorry to take you back. I was thinking of the one with Michael J. Fox.

中文：是的，我很喜欢那些喜剧。你知道，我喜欢《老友记》和《射击我吧》，还有电视上那些有 8000 集的节目。是的，当然。还有《家庭琐事》。你看过那个吗？没有，我没看过。哦，实际上我看过。是的，对不起让你回忆起来了。我本来在想那个迈克尔·J·福克斯出演的那个。

No, I didn't watch that. Family Matters, which is a great totally goes off the rails show with no consistency from beginning to end. Where like Urkel, it's kind of like the Fonz situation where he's just a minor character and then just takes over the entire show and then has... You know, he creates a robot clone of himself and he, you know, it's utterly absurd sci-fi premises and also characters that are in the background that ostensibly live in the house like disappear for seasons that you don't see anymore and like I think it's inconsistent who plays this sister or this, but they don't care about that anymore because it's just about Urkel annoying the dad, the...

中文：不，我没有看过那个。家庭风云（Family Matters），这是一部非常棒的完全失去规律的节目，从头到尾毫无一致性。像 Urkel 这样的角色，有点像 Fonz 的情况，他原本只是一个小角色，后来却占据了整个节目，然后他……你知道，他创造了一个自己的机器人克隆，你知道的，这是完全荒谬的科幻设定，还有那些本应住在家里的背景角色，会在几个季度中突然消失，再也不出现。我觉得谁演这个姐妹或者那个角色都不一致，但他们已经不在乎这些了，因为节目只是讲 Urkel 惹老爸生气……

The cop guy and... Yeah, it's funny. This is definitely a norm that's changed with television writing, whereas like now everything has to be... Planned out in advance and that's consistent. Yeah, and you have to have continuity.

中文：那个警察家伙……是的，很有趣。这绝对是随着电视编剧而改变的一个常规，而现在一切都必须……事先计划好，并且保持一致。是的，而且你必须有连贯性。

Right, because now they're going to make six episodes every three years. Right. So it better be fucking continuity. Yeah, right. These people had to make 200 episodes every three months. Right. So you forgive them. They had to get different actors to play different people and so on and so forth.

中文：对，因为现在他们每三年只做六集。对。所以它最好他妈的是连续剧情。是啊，对。这些人必须每三个月制作 200 集。对。所以你可以原谅他们。他们必须找不同的演员来扮演不同的人，诸如此类。

Yeah, or the shows will be on for 20 seasons and so you have to, yeah, that one actor wants to go do something else and so you have to find a new actor or it's like, you know, the Cosby show, right? Like they changed who played the wife or, yeah, all sorts of stuff like that. Yeah, it is fun to go back and watch like early seasons of sitcoms and see like, they like try things out with characters and then like decide like, it's like, oh, like, so for instance, in Frasier, Daphne, the home, you know, the English home health care worker. She's like psychic, right? In the first couple seasons that's coming up a lot, and then they just get tired of the joke and so then it never happens, right? Yeah. Or if you watch the first episode of Seinfeld, there's a sassy waitress at the cafe that they go to that they're familiar with. Sweeney's Frasier and The Office Whatever makes the character interesting gets overemphasized over time. So one character whose comedy comes from being stupid becomes like brain dead by the end of the – even though they were perfectly competent. Right.

中文：是的，或者这些节目将持续 20 季，所以你必须，是的，一位演员想做别的事情，所以你必须找到一位新演员，或者就像，你知道的，科斯比秀，对吧？ 就像他们改变了扮演妻子的人，或者，是的，诸如此类的事情。 是的，回顾情景喜剧的早期季节是很有趣的，他们喜欢尝试角色，然后做出决定，就像，哦，就像，所以例如，在《欢乐一家亲》中，达芙妮，这个家庭，你知道，英国家庭医护人员。 她就像通灵者一样，对吧？ 在前几季中，这种情况出现了很多，然后他们就厌倦了这个笑话，所以它就永远不会发生，对吧？ 是的。 或者，如果你观看《宋飞正传》第一集，就会发现他们去的那家他们熟悉的咖啡馆里有一位时髦的女服务员。 斯威尼的《欢乐一家亲》和《办公室》随着时间的推移，无论什么使这个角色变得有趣的东西都被过分强调了。 因此，一个因愚蠢而产生喜剧效果的角色到最后就会变得脑死亡——尽管他们完全有能力。 正确的。

You know, they exaggerate. Like that happens in so many –

中文：你知道，他们夸大了。就像那种情况发生在很多——

As in Boy Meets World, a sitcom I really liked as a kid, like Eric, the older brother, who's like a kind of, at first a kind of cool older brother character, like ladies love him, but he's also like he's dumb, or he's just not good at school. By the end of it, he's like an idiot savant, is like, lives in the woods, is like so... So like there's a whole arc where he like sees the future or something and comes back from the future to stop them from having a falling out as a friend like again utterly absurd yeah I mean the show is very meta and clever in the ways it was meta so it's like it's done it's supposed to be ridiculous but yeah things like that yeah Yeah, you know what, this is actually, I think, an example of this being done really poorly. I mean, this is why sitcoms go off the rails after a while. It's like, you just have to increasingly amp up the ridiculousness, because you've kind of played out the scenarios that would kind of plausibly happen

中文：就像在《男孩遇见世界》中，我小时候很喜欢的一部情景喜剧里，像埃里克，哥哥，他一开始是一个有点酷的哥哥角色，女孩子都喜欢他，但他也很笨，或者学习不太好。到最后，他就像一个天才白痴，住在森林里，非常……所以有一个完整的剧情弧，他像是能看到未来或者从未来回来阻止他们作为朋友再次产生分歧，完全荒谬。是的，我是说这部剧在它以元叙事的方式表现得非常聪明，所以本来就应该很荒唐，但像这样的事情确实发生了。是的，你知道吗，我实际上认为这是一个做得非常糟糕的例子。我是说，这就是为什么情景喜剧演着演着会偏离方向。那就是，你不得不越来越夸张地增加荒谬性，因为你所能展现的合理发生的情节已经玩完了。

with these characters, right? But yeah, The Office, right? So like, yeah, like initially, and this is why I really do not like the later seasons of The Office. I do like them, but yeah.

中文：就是这些角色，对吧？但是，是的，《办公室》，对吧？所以，嗯，一开始是这样的，这就是为什么我真的不喜欢《办公室》的后几季。我是喜欢它们的，但就是这样。

Um, normal people and then insane people. Right? Yeah. So, I mean, that's, that's, that's the joke in shows like you have Michael Scott, who's like the insane boss and then everyone else, you know, they're, they're characters, they have their foibles, but they're really just kind of like backgrounds, uh, this drab office setting that highlights how ridiculous Michael Scott is. And then as like, you know, they go on for so long, it's like, okay, we actually kind of have to make him more of a normal person and a sympathetic person. And so in order to get any sort of like plots we have to just like amp up the ridiculousness with all these characters. Right. Angela, Ryan. Right. Yep.

中文：嗯，正常人，然后是疯狂的人，对吧？是的。所以，我的意思是，这就是这类节目的笑点，比如你有迈克尔·斯科特，他是疯狂的老板，而其他人，你知道，他们有自己的小缺点，但他们其实只是像背景一样，这个单调的办公室环境突出了迈克尔·斯科特的荒谬之处。然后随着节目持续很长时间，就像，好吧，我们实际上必须让他更像一个正常人，更有同情心的人。因此，为了推动剧情发展，我们只好把所有这些角色的荒谬程度提升，对吧。Angela，Ryan。对。是的。

Dwight himself. Dwight, right. Sure. Andy, who I hate. I've said this before on the podcast. I hate him so much. Just call him Drew. I don't even know why I hate him so much, but I hate him. Yeah, we just finished that rewatch of Lost that I started like three months ago. We binge watched the final season in like two days. It's the first time my husband had seen it. And you know what? I won't say that much about it because I've talked about Lost a lot.

中文：德怀特自己。德怀特，对。没错。安迪，我讨厌的人。我在播客上说过这件事。我太讨厌他了。就叫他德鲁吧。我甚至不知道为什么我这么讨厌他，但我就是讨厌他。是的，我们刚刚结束了那部我三个月前开始重温的《迷失》。我们在两天内刷完了最后一季。这是我丈夫第一次看这部剧。你知道吗？我不会多说，因为我已经谈过很多关于《迷失》的事了。

80:00 - 90:00

But it holds up pretty well. The whole idea, people are mad that it didn't answer enough questions. Outside like one or two things, I'm not sure what questions did it not answer. People felt that way because every episode ends with a cliffhanger and then you had to wait a week to see the next one and people dropped off. So like, oh, they just never answer anything. Well, if you watch it all in order, it actually holds up pretty well for something that played out a hundred and something episodes over six years. And you know what? You can see everything that happens. There's no... Part where it's too dark and I can't see what the characters are doing. Even the scenes that take place at night you can see. They used to do night differently where it's night but it's not night and it's dark and you can't see anyone. You can still see. That's before Pazuzu. That's before this. Before we summon this demon. That stops us from... There's light and color and... It's weird to say that is something that we've lost. Light and color. But we have. The building blocks of optics. We just lost them. Oh, it's sad. So I really enjoyed it. It's about the journeys about the characters and their connections to each other. And it's emotional. And I was glad to revisit it again. I'm sure I'll revisit it again one day. It's still my all-time favorite. Pleasure show. Not the best show ever, but I, man, I enjoy it. Yeah, I would, I would, I watched like the first couple seasons when it first came out. I would try to give it a go, but like, then, you know. Who would I talk about for, you know, 90 minutes a week, you know? Oh yeah, you'd have nothing to do. I almost did that. Should we make a plan to do it by next week?

中文：但它坚持得很好。 整个想法，人们很生气，因为它没有回答足够的问题。 除了一两件事之外，我不确定它没有回答哪些问题。 人们有这样的感觉是因为每一集都以悬念结束，然后你必须等待一周才能看到下一集，然后人们就放弃了。 就像，哦，他们只是从不回答任何问题。 好吧，如果你按顺序观看所有内容，它实际上对于六年内播放了一百多集的东西来说相当不错。 你知道吗？ 你可以看到发生的一切。 没有……太黑的部分，我看不到角色在做什么。 即使是晚上发生的场景也可以看到。 他们过去的夜晚方式有所不同，虽然是夜晚，但不是夜晚，而且很黑，你看不到任何人。 你仍然可以看到。 那是在帕祖祖之前。 那是在这之前。 在我们召唤这个恶魔之前。 这阻止了我们……有光和颜色……说我们已经失去了这些东西，这很奇怪。 光和颜色。 但我们有。 光学的基石。 我们刚刚失去了他们。 噢，很难过。 所以我真的很喜欢它。 这是关于角色的旅程以及他们彼此之间的联系。它充满情感。我很高兴能再次回顾它。我相信有一天我还会再回顾它。它仍然是我有史以来最喜欢的节目。娱乐节目。不是有史以来最好的节目，但我，老实说，我很享受它。是的，我会，我会的，我在它刚出来的时候看了前几季。我会尝试去看，但然后，你知道的，你一周说 90 分钟的话题，会谈什么呢，对吗？哦，是的，你也没什么可做的。我差点就这么做了。我们要不要计划在下周之前做到呢？

I almost re-watched Fight Club last night. Oh, okay, yeah, sure. Okay, that's our homework assignment. We're going to watch Fight Club. Yeah, real coal mine we work at. I know.

中文：我昨晚差点又看了一遍《搏击俱乐部》。哦，好吧，是的，当然。好吧，那就是我们的家庭作业。我们要看《搏击俱乐部》。是的，我们工作的真煤矿。我知道。

I proposed it last night and my husband was like, I'm not sure I really want to watch this movie. Now I get to force him because it's an assignment. So good. Okay. So we'll see. Great. Alright, so we'll enjoy that. Audience, you too. You should watch Fight Club in the next week and talk about it in the comments with us. Okay, very good. Alright, we'll see you then. Bye-bye.

中文：我昨晚提议了这件事，我丈夫的反应是，我不确定我真的想看这部电影。现在我可以强迫他，因为这是作业。太好了。好吧，我们拭目以待。太棒了。好了，我们会好好享受的。观众，你们也是。你们应该在下周观看《搏击俱乐部》，然后在评论区与我们讨论。好，非常好。好了，那我们到时候见。再见。