把乐高交给机器人，它还在你手里：Molly Graham 谈科技业的悲伤、孤独与倦怠｜Lenny's Podcast

「送出你的乐高」是什么，以及它坏掉的那一半

把乐高交给机器人，和交给同事是两回事

每个人现在都成了管理者

工程师的身份转换，以及团队被抽空之后的孤独

半人马与反向半人马

恐惧叙事，和「AI 裁员」这个标签

数据：一半人在飞，一半人在沉

AI 垃圾、问责，与「token 排行榜」

哪些乐高不该交出去

人肉三明治：愿景在上面，AI 在中间，人在最后

慢起飞：你没有落后

给管理者与领导者的几句话

几个词，几个人

这一期值不值得听

完整中英双语逐字转录稿

00:00 - 10:00

So, we've been chatting about your famous giveaway, your Legos career advice. This idea of how this advice applies in today's very strange AI world.

中文：所以，我们一直在聊你的那条著名的建议「送出你的乐高」。关于这些建议如何适用于今天这个非常奇怪的 AI 世界的想法。

The narrative right now is literally like, okay, we hired this new employee. This new employee is the smartest employee that you have ever met. I want you to pour every single thing that you know into this employee and then they're going to take your job in 6 months. Like, who the wants to do that?

中文：现在的叙述字面意思就是，好的，我们雇了这个新员工。这个新员工是你见过的最聪明的员工。我希望你把你知道的每一件事都倾注给这个员工，然后他们将在六个月后接管你的工作。谁想做这种事啊？

Here's the big question, Molly. Are there any Legos you should not give away in AI land?

中文：莫莉，这就是大问题。在 AI 的世界里，有没有一些乐高你不应该送出去？

I think we got to caveat this. There are some Legos that shouldn't be given away. There's just some work that shouldn't be outsourced.

中文：我认为我们需要对此加以警告。有些乐高不应该被随意赠送。有些工作就是不应该外包的。

There's a radical departure from your advice over the many years.

中文：多年来，你的建议发生了彻底的偏离。

You individually are phenomenal at a set of things. Don't outsource it to these weird robots that, you know, are effectively summer interns.

中文：你个人在一系列事情上非常出色。不要把它外包给这些奇怪的机器人，你知道，它们实际上就像暑期实习生一样。

AI is taking a lot of our Legos whether we like it or not. And we're being encouraged to give away our Legos to AI.

中文：无论我们是否愿意，AI 正在夺取我们许多的乐高。而且我们还被鼓励将我们的乐高交给 AI。

you had someone on who talked about like the job used to be rowing and now it's steering and I was like I feel like there's a lot of people out in the world right now that are like I don't want to steer.

中文：你请了一个人来，他谈到工作以前是划桨，现在是掌舵，我当时想，我觉得现在世界上有很多人是那种不想掌舵的。

I've heard from a lot of engineers just like I really miss what it used to be.

中文：我听很多工程师说，我真的很怀念以前的样子。

Change sucks. It also can be awesome but we don't have to be fluffy bunnies about this. We can also just say this is hard.

中文：改变很糟糕。它也可能很棒，但我们不必对此过于甜美。我们也可以直接说，这很难。

This is almost a discussion around what should AI do? Where do you want AI to be involved and where you not want it involved?

中文：这几乎是在讨论 AI 应该做什么？你希望 AI 参与哪些方面，又希望它不参与哪些方面？

What would you do if you believed your job was always going to exist? It was just going to look completely different every 6 years.

中文：如果你相信你的工作将永远存在，你会怎么做？它只是在每六年看起来完全不同而已。

Today, my guest is Molly Graham. This is Molly's second visit to the podcast. And man, this is a powerful conversation. The frame for this conversation is her classic give away your Legos career advice. But in an AI world, Molly's advice for the last 13 years has been that your career will be better off if you give away your projects and your teams and your responsibilities to other people as your company grows versus trying to hold on to it, which is what we naturally want to do. Essentially, to give away your Legos. After 13 years of giving this advice and it unlocking so much wind for so many people over the past decade, Molly has realized that it is no longer true. when you are giving away your Legos to AI, it's a lot more nuanced and complicated now. And so in this conversation, we try to get to the bottom of this question. What Lego should you still be giving away? And what Lego should you keep?

中文：今天，我的嘉宾是莫莉·格雷厄姆。这是莫莉第二次来参加我们的播客。天啊，这真是一次非常有力量的对话。本次对话的框架是她经典的“赠送你的乐高”职业建议。但在 AI 时代，过去 13 年来，莫莉的建议一直是：随着公司发展，如果你把你的项目、团队和责任交给别人，而不是试图自己抓紧不放，你的职业会更好——这正是我们自然想做的事情。基本上，就是要“赠送你的乐高”。在过去十年里，她给出这个建议并为许多人带来了巨大的益处之后，莫莉意识到，这个建议已不再适用。当你把乐高交给 AI 时，情况变得更加微妙和复杂。因此，在这次对话中，我们试图深入探讨这个问题：你应该继续赠送哪些乐高？又应该保留哪些乐高？

If you're not familiar with Molly, she has spent 20 plus years helping organizations and the humans inside them navigate growth and change. She's held leadership roles at Google and Facebook and Quip and the Chan Zuckerberg Initiative. These days, she hosts TED's WorkLife podcast, which she took over from Adam Grant. She also runs an incredibly important leadership community called Glue Club and writes a newsletter called Lessons. Now, before we get into it, I noticed a lot of people don't finish our full episodes and miss some of the best stuff. So, to help you, we've just created a new Lenny's Most Replayed Moments YouTube channel that has exactly this, the most rewatched and shared segments from our long- form episodes. You can now check it out and subscribe to the channel at lennispodcast.com/mostreplayed moments. There's also a link in the description. Finally, don't forget to check out lenniesprob.com for a free year of the hottest and most beautifully crafted AI and nonI products in the world.

中文：如果您不熟悉 莫莉，她已经花了 20 多年的时间帮助组织及其内部人员应对增长和变革。 她曾在 Google、Facebook、Quip 和 Chan Zuckerberg Initiative 担任领导职务。 如今，她从亚当·格兰特 (Adam Grant) 手中接手了 TED 的 WorkLife 播客。 她还运营着一个极其重要的领导力社区，名为“Glue Club”，并撰写了一份名为“Lessons”的时事通讯。 现在，在我们开始之前，我注意到很多人没有完成我们的完整剧集并且错过了一些最好的东西。 因此，为了帮助您，我们刚刚创建了一个新的 莱尼's Most Replayed Moments YouTube 频道，其中包含我们长篇剧集中重播次数最多和分享次数最多的片段。 您现在可以在 lennispodcast.com/mostreplayed 上查看并订阅该频道。 描述中还有一个链接。 最后，不要忘记访问 lenniesprob.com，免费获取一年中世界上最热门、制作最精美的 AI 和 nonI 产品。

That's lenny'sprobass.com. With that, I bring you Molly Graham. Molly, thank you so much for being here and welcome back to the podcast.

中文：那是 lenny'sprobass.com。借此机会，我为大家带来 莫莉·格雷厄姆。莫莉，非常感谢你来到这里，欢迎回到播客节目。

Thanks for having me, Lenny. I'm excited to be back.

中文：谢谢你邀请我，莱尼。我很高兴回来了。

Uh, I'm even more excited to have you back. Let me add a little context to this slightly unusual conversation we're gonna have. So, we've been chatting over the past couple months about your famous uh infamous giveaway your Legos career advice and this question came up and I know you're hearing this a lot from other people. This idea of how this advice applies in today's very uh strange AI world where AI is taking a lot of our Legos whether we like it or not and we're being encouraged to give our legos to AI. People are afraid about AI taking their legs. And so, uh, the question is just how this advice now applies in a world of AI. And I know this is kind of an ongoing thought process for you, but you actually have a lot of really interesting insights and takes on how to think about this advice now in today's very strange world. And so, we're going to have a conversation about it, see where it goes.

中文：嗯，我更加高兴你回来了。让我为我们即将进行的这场有些不同寻常的对话提供一些背景。过去几个月里，我们一直在聊你著名的——呃——臭名昭著的赠送活动、你的乐高职业建议，然后出现了这个问题，我知道你也经常从其他人那里听到这个问题。就是关于这些建议在当今这个非常奇怪的 AI 世界中如何适用的问题——在这个世界里，无论我们是否愿意，AI 正在获取我们许多的乐高，而我们也被鼓励把我们的乐高交给 AI。人们害怕 AI 会夺走他们的乐高。所以，这个问题就是这些建议在 AI 时代如何应用。我知道这是你一直在思考的问题，但你对如何在当今这个非常奇怪的世界中看待这些建议有很多非常有趣的见解和看法。所以，我们将就此进行一次对话，看看会发展到哪里。

This episode is brought to you by our season's presenting sponsor, WorkOS. What do OpenAI, Anthropic, Cursor, Replet, Sierra, Clay, and hundreds of other winning companies all have in common? They are all powered by work OS. If you're building a product for the enterprise, you've felt the pain of integrating single sign on, skim, arback, audit, logs, and other features required by large companies. Work OS turns those deal blockers into drop-in APIs with a modern developer platform built specifically for B2B SAS. Literally every startup that I'm an investor in that starts to expand up market ends up working with Work OS. And that's because they are the best. Whether you are seedstage startup trying to land your first enterprise customer or a unicorn expanding globally, work OS is the fastest path to becoming enterprise ready and unblocking growth. It's essentially Stripe for enterprise features.

中文：本集由我们本季的主要赞助商 WorkOS 提供。OpenAI、Anthropic、Cursor、Replet、Sierra、Clay 以及数百家其他成功公司有什么共同点？它们都由 Work OS 提供支持。如果你正在为企业构建产品，你一定体验过集成单点登录、skim、arback、审计、日志以及大型公司所需的其他功能的痛苦。Work OS 将这些交易障碍转化为可直接使用的 API，并提供专为 B2B SaaS 构建的现代开发者平台。我投资的每一家开始向高端市场扩展的初创公司最终都会与 Work OS 合作。这是因为他们是最优秀的。无论你是试图获得第一位企业客户的早期创业公司，还是正在全球扩张的独角兽公司，Work OS 都是快速实现企业级准备并解除增长障碍的最快路径。它本质上就是企业功能的 Stripe。

Visit works.com to get started or just hit up their Slack where they have actual engineers waiting to answer your questions. Work OS allows you to build faster with delightful APIs, comprehensive docs, and a smooth developer experience. Go to works.com to make your app enterprise ready today. I'd say as a first step, let's remind people what this advice is. Uh I imagine most people have heard it. A lot of people probably like, "Oh yeah, I kind of get the idea." So explain kind of the original uh idea of giving away your Legos.

中文：访问 works.com 开始使用，或者直接加入他们的 Slack，那里的实际工程师会等待回答你的问题。Work OS 让你能够通过令人愉快的 API、全面的文档以及顺畅的开发者体验更快地构建。访问 works.com，让你的应用今天就具备企业级准备。我想作为第一步，我们先提醒大家这条建议是什么。呃，我想大多数人都听说过它。很多人可能会想，‘噢，是的，我有点明白这个意思。’所以解释一下原本的想法，也就是免费分享你的乐高积木的想法。

It actually started when I was at Google and Facebook and it started as a a little talk that I would give people that worked for me and for context like Google was pretty big when I joined. It was like 10,000 employees in 2007 but my department grew from 25 people to 125 people in nine months. So that was my first experience with like really rapid scale and then I went to Facebook and Facebook was relatively small when I joined. it was 500 employees and 80 million users smaller than MySpace which is always good context to remember um and you know while I was there you know obviously a huge growth curve I left 5 years later it was 5500 employees and over a billion users so that experience was nuts uh from a scaling perspective and what I witnessed at Google and then sort of really witnessed at Facebook was how hard and scary that experience was for people. Um, I watched a lot of folks go from sort of like you you build a thing, right?

中文：实际上，这一切始于我在谷歌和 Facebook 工作的时候，最初是我给下属做的一次小讲座。为了提供一些背景，我加入谷歌的时候公司已经相当大了，2007 年大约有 1 万名员工，但我的部门在九个月内从 25 人增长到 125 人。这是我第一次体验真正的快速扩张。后来我去了 Facebook，加入时 Facebook 相对较小，只有 500 名员工和 8000 万用户，比 MySpace 还小，这总是一个值得记住的背景。在那里工作期间，显然经历了巨大的增长曲线，我五年后离开时，员工人数达到 5500 人，用户超过十亿。从规模化的角度来看，那种经验非常疯狂。在谷歌，我目睹了这种经历，而在 Facebook，我更真实地目睹了这种经历，对人们来说是多么困难和令人害怕。我看到很多人经历了从建设一件事情的状态，

You show up and you become the person that owns the blog or owns this part of the stack or built that product and you sort of build like an identity around it. You're the this person, whatever that is. And then the nature of scale is that everything around you changes. And so somebody shows up and your manager shows up and says, "Hey, you need to, you know, hand that thing that you've built your whole identity around to someone else and, you know, go on to doing something else." And your first instinct is like, "What?" You know, like no, I don't I don't want to give it away. Like I I'm good at this. I know how to do this. Um I also think it's fun and what if it's the only fun thing to do? And so you kind of witness people like would have this tendency to hold on. And so what I started to do with people on my team was say, "Hey, this change is happening and here's how you might feel, right?

中文：你出现了，你就成为了拥有博客或者负责这一部分技术栈，或者创建了那个产品的人，然后你会围绕它建立一种身份。你就是这个人，不管那是什么。然后规模的本质是，你周围的一切都会发生变化。所以有人出现了，你的经理出现了，说：“嘿，你需要把你整个身份建立在其上的那个东西交给别人，然后去做其他事情。”你的第一反应会是：“什么？”你知道吗，不，我不想放手。嗯，我擅长这个，我知道如何做这个。我也觉得这很有趣，如果这是唯一有趣的事情怎么办？所以你会看到人们有这种倾向去抓住不放。因此，我开始对团队里的成员说：“嘿，这个变化正在发生，你可能会有这样的感受，对吧？”

That you might feel like all these feelings territorial and wanting to hold on." And actually the most important thing to do is to give things away to to to evolve as the company is evolving. And my brain is a really weird place. Like I grew up on the Muppets, so I just like spits out I always think there's just like a lot of tiny monsters dancing around singing songs in my head. But like that is why metaphors come out uh for me. And so I always use this metaphor of like just a bunch of kindergarteners and like somebody dumps a pile of Legos in front of you and at first it's fun, a little overwhelming, then you start building and and the giveaway your Legos part is like that feeling when somebody else shows up and they try to take the tower out of your hands and the kindergartener response is like get out of here. You know what I mean? It's like shoving someone away. when actually like you get multiple people.

中文：你可能会觉得所有这些情感都是有领地意识的，并且想要紧紧抓住它们。而实际上最重要的事情是把东西赠送出去，以便随着公司的发展而发展。而我的脑子真的很奇怪。我是在布偶秀里长大的，所以我的脑子里总是不断冒出各种想法，我总觉得有很多小怪物在我的脑海里跳舞唱歌。也正因为如此，我才会产生比喻。所以我总是用这个比喻：就像一群幼儿园的小朋友，有人把一堆乐高放在你面前，一开始很好玩，有一点儿让人不知所措，然后你开始搭建，而赠送乐高那部分就像是当别人过来试图把你手中的塔拿走时，小朋友的反应就是‘滚开’。你明白我的意思吗？就像是推开某人。然而实际上，你会面对好几个人。

It means oh you can go build something new and fun. You can start from scratch and you can learn something. But the natural human instinct in the face of change is to hold on to things and to resist the change, right? To um to be territorial and all of those things. So anyway, I I started giving this talk to folks on my team to kind of help them understand that change and what was coming. And then eventually I sent it out to my friends at first round who were building the first round review at the time. And just to be clear, this is now 13 years ago. Um the talk I was like when when I was at Facebook, it was over 20 years ago. Um and uh it I sent it to first round and we published it and you know I would have said I was speaking to folks going through a Facebook like experience. Like I would have said like, "Hey, this is an article that is for like the Stripes or the Slacks or whoever was, you know, uh, blowing up in in 2013 to normalize, hey, this is what it feels like and this is what you have to do to grow as fast as your company is growing." Um, but what happened when it was published is that I got emails from all over the world.

中文：这意味着哦，你可以去构建一些新的、有趣的东西。 你可以从头开始，你可以学到一些东西。 但面对变化，人类的本能是抓住事物并抵制变化，对吗？ 嗯，要有领土意识以及所有这些事情。 所以无论如何，我开始向我的团队成员进行这次演讲，以帮助他们了解这一变化以及即将发生的事情。 然后最终我将其发送给第一轮的朋友们，他们当时正在进行第一轮审查。 需要澄清的是，现在已经是 13 年前了。 嗯，我在 Facebook 时说过的话，那已经是 20 多年前的事了。 嗯，呃，我把它发送到第一轮，我们发布了它，你知道我会说我正在和经历过 Facebook 类似经历的人们交谈。 就像我会说的那样，“嘿，这篇文章是写给 Stripes 或 Slacks 之类的人的，你知道，嗯，在 2013 年爆发，以实现正常化，嘿，这就是感觉，这就是你必须做的事情，才能与你的公司一样快速成长。” 嗯，但是当它发布时，我收到了来自世界各地的电子邮件。

10:00 - 20:00

I got emails from people at companies like Safeway, you know, where and this woman, I still remember this email, wrote me and was like, "This was so helpful to me. This like perfectly describes what I've been going through on my team." And I got an email again, I remember it very vividly, from a founder in Nigeria who was like, "My team went from two people to four people this year and give away your Legos like is so valuable to me. Like, this is exactly what I've been feeling." And my first reaction was like, I didn't write this for you. Like, this is not this was not meant for you. Um, but my second one was, whoa, this is about something much bigger than just what it feels like to be inside of rapid scale. Um, and fundamentally, I think the Lego's message is about change, you know, and it's about the fact that when you go through change, a lot of [__] happens to you. You know what I mean?

中文：我收到过来自像 Safeway 这样的公司的人的电子邮件，你知道的，还有一个女人，我至今还记得这封电子邮件，她写信给我说：“这对我非常有帮助。这完美地描述了我在团队中经历的情况。” 我还记得我又收到了一封电子邮件，是来自尼日利亚的一位创始人，他说：“我的团队今年从两个人增加到四个人，‘赠送你的乐高积木’对我来说非常有价值。这正是我一直在体验的感觉。” 我最初的反应是，我并不是为你写这个的，这并不是为了你写的。嗯，但我的第二个反应是，哇，这涉及的东西远比快速扩张中的感受更大。嗯，从根本上来说，我认为乐高积木的讯息是关于变化的，你知道，当你经历变化时，很多[__]事情会发生在你身上。你明白我的意思吗？

like it just is a very specific experience and I think that's why it ended up end ended up being so universal and it is crazy like I still get emails about it multiple emails a month about it to this day. Um so it's it's lasted in a way that again like I just thought I was I was sending out a note to the folks that are going through crazy rapid change. I uh I was at a first round event I don't know a year ago or something and they were talking about all the different posts people have written and I think it's one of the maybe the first or second most popular post on the first round review. It's it's up there and it's traveled in ways that I don't think any of us imagined it would.

中文：就像这是一种非常特定的经历，我认为这就是它最终能变得如此普遍的原因，真的很疯狂，我现在每个月仍然会收到好几封关于它的邮件。所以，它以一种方式持续存在，我当时只是觉得我在给那些经历疯狂快速变化的人发一条信息。我大约一年前参加了一个 First Round 的活动，他们在谈论人们写的各种不同的帖子，我想这可能是在 First Round Review 上第一个或第二个最受欢迎的帖子。它的影响力很大，而且以一种我们都没想到的方式传播开来。

Okay, so let's talk about what still holds true in this advice in this today's very strange AI world.

中文：好，那么让我们来谈谈在今天这个非常奇怪的 AI 世界中，这些建议中哪些仍然适用。

What still holds true? What's still correct about this advice based on what you're seeing? One thing that's crazy about this article is I still get so many emails about it today. I still get asked to give speeches, you know, at every fast growing company. So I think for anybody that's going through rapid scale, Legos is still really relevant. But the interesting thing is like what started to happen, it's probably like two years ago is I got more inbound from managers um and more inbound from leaders about Legos. just more people grappling with change inside their companies and I think that is the thing that really holds true today and actually has just become more universal. Um you know I used to uh really check before I went and did a speech at some company how fast the company was growing. Um, I would ask like kind of about revenue growth and about headcount growth because that just helps me contextualize like how I should speak to to employees and I still do that.

中文：什么仍然是正确的？根据你观察到的，这些建议中什么仍然是对的？这篇文章有一件疯狂的事情是，即使到了今天，我仍然收到很多关于它的邮件。我仍然被邀请去做演讲，你知道的，在每一个快速成长的公司。所以我认为，对于任何经历快速扩张的人来说，乐高仍然非常相关。但有意思的是，大约两年前开始，我收到更多来自经理层的咨询，以及来自领导者的更多咨询，都是关于乐高的。只是更多的人在公司内部应对变革，我认为这件事今天仍然成立，而且实际上变得更加普遍。我以前在去某公司演讲之前，会仔细了解公司增长的速度。我会问一些关于收入增长和员工人数增长的问题，因为这能帮助我为员工演讲时更好地把握背景，我现在仍然会这样做。

Um, but it's also become really clear that every single company in the world is going through enormous change of varying shapes and kinds right now. And that is the fundamental underlying message of Legos is how do you deal with change and how do you um be your best self in the face of change. So I feel like the the number one thing that is true today as true as it was you know 10 or 15 years ago is the change is really scary and hard. And I always say like somebody once asked me to like summarize the Legos article in one sentence. They're like Molly this is too long. like give me the cliff notes and I I said two things. Um unfortunately they didn't get one sentence, they got two. The two sentences were number one, your main job in the face of rapid growth and change is to make yourself irrelevant because it is the only way that you can be prepared for whatever is coming next. And the second piece of advice or sort of second summary of it was don't worry, it's all going to be okay.

中文：嗯，但也变得非常清楚，现在世界上每一家公司都在经历各种形式和类型的巨大变化。这就是乐高的基本核心信息——你如何应对变化，以及在变化面前如何做到最好的自己。所以我觉得今天唯一不变的事实，就像十年前十五年前一样，是变化真的很让人害怕，很困难。我总是说，有人曾经让我用一句话总结乐高的文章，他们说‘莫莉，这太长了，给我一个摘要’，我说了两件事。不幸的是，他们没有得到一句话，而是得到了两句。第一句是：面对快速的增长和变化，你的主要任务是让自己变得不再重要，因为这是你为即将到来的任何事情做好准备的唯一方式。第二条建议或者说总结是：别担心，一切都会好起来的。

I always feel like the Legos article and the speeches I give are like a form of group therapy. They're like just a giant hug. Like yes, it feels chaotic and overwhelming and stressful, but there's all this opportunity on the other side. And I think that the don't worry, it's all going to be okay is really something everybody needs to hear that like change is scary and hard, but it doesn't necessarily mean the world is ending. I think this the second piece of that is that change comes with this incredible set of emotions like this wild roller coaster um that we don't talk about enough. And I think that was a lot of why I first started talking about Legos like at Facebook and on my teams was I just wanted to normalize for people what it felt like that that you might feel all these feelings and that that was what everyone around you was feeling, right? That it didn't make you crazy and it didn't make you broken or something like that.

中文：我总觉得乐高的文章和我所做的演讲就像是一种团体疗法。它们就像是一个巨大的拥抱。是的，它感觉混乱、压倒性而且令人有压力，但在另一面有那么多机会。我认为‘别担心，一切都会好的’这句话真的是每个人都需要听到的——变化很可怕，很困难，但它不一定意味着世界末日。我认为第二点是，变化伴随着一系列难以置信的情绪，就像一场狂野的过山车，而我们谈论得不够。我想这也是我最初在 Facebook 和我的团队中谈论乐高的原因之一，我只是想让人们习惯这种感觉——你可能会感受到所有这些情绪，而这正是你周围每个人都在经历的，对吧？这并不会让你疯狂，也不会让你变得破碎之类的。

It also didn't mean anything was wrong. It actually meant that all the right things were happening. And I think that is very real today. Like when I travel around and I'm talking to leaders, um, and I know you and I are going to talk about this, but a lot of what I'm hearing is is grief and all these different emotions. There's obviously like excitement and um joy in in this moment of of chaos and change with AI, but there is a lot of sadness. There's a lot of overwhelm that all, you know, manifests. Some of it manifests in burnout, but it's like there is just a lot going on for people right now. And you really can't lead right now without talking about that um and without normalizing that. And I think that's like such a big part of the giveaway or like I was, you know, today is just like helping people understand that these emotions are just part of sort of your body and your identity reacting to change.

中文：这也并不意味着出了什么问题。实际上，这意味着所有正确的事情都在发生。我认为这在今天是非常真实的。就像当我到处旅行，与领导者交谈的时候，嗯，我知道你我会讨论这个，但我听到的很多都是悲伤和各种不同的情绪。显然，在 AI 带来的混乱和变革的时刻，也会有兴奋和喜悦，但也有很多悲伤。也有很多压力和不堪重负，这些情况显现出来。其中一些表现为倦怠，但对于人们来说，现在确实发生了很多事情。而且现在如果不谈论这些、并且不让它们变得正常化，你真的无法领导。我认为这就是这次分享的一大部分，或者说，我今天就是在帮助人们理解，这些情绪只是你身体和身份对变化的反应的一部分。

The other two things I would say that really do still feel true to me that I both talk about in the article and have talked about a lot since is like one of the things I say to people that are inside of a really rapidly growing company is the future will be defined by the people that learn not the people that know. You know, I always say like what you can learn by tomorrow matters way more than what you know today. And like never has a truer sentence been said than like about the age of AI. Do you know what I mean? like whatever we thought we knew six months ago, like toss it out the window. Something new is true today. But what I used to say to people and I still say I guess when I when I do these speeches is like you go look at that graph of how fast your company is growing, right? You go look at like that curve, you know, and at Facebook it was like felt like we were falling off of it.

中文：我想说的另外两件事，确实依然让我觉得真实的，也是我在文章里提到过并且后来一直在讲的，一件是我对那些在快速发展的公司里的人说的事情：未来将由学习的人定义，而不是知道的人。你知道，我总是说，比起你今天知道的东西，你明天学到的东西更重要。在 AI 时代，这句话从未如此真实。你明白我的意思吗？无论我们六个月前以为自己知道的是什么，都可以扔到窗外去。今天有新的真理。但我过去对人们说的话，现在在做演讲时我也依然会说的是：你去看看你公司增长的那张图，对吧？去看看那条曲线，你知道，在 Facebook，那感觉就像我们快掉下去了一样。

That is the graph of how fast your company is growing. Yes. But it is also the graph of how fast uh your job is growing, right? how fast every single thing around you is growing and changing, which means it's also the graph of how fast you need to grow. And I think that is such an important thing to understand inside of a a world of change, which is that standing still, right? It feels safe. It feels like hold on to what you know, you know, because that that at least it's not, you know, scary and unknown. But actually standing still is like the least safe thing you can do. It's basically you're guaranteed to fall behind. Um and I saw this viscerally at Facebook when because the first two years I was in HR and um you could literally see like the highest performer one year if they didn't grow and change and if they didn't evolve their team fast enough, they were underwater like less than a year later because it was a different company.

中文：那是你们公司增长速度的图表。是的。但它也是你的工作增长速度的图表，对吧？是你周围每一件事物的增长和变化速度的图表，这也意味着它是你需要增长的速度的图表。我认为，在一个充满变化的世界里，理解这一点非常重要，也就是说，保持原地不动，对吧？它看起来安全。看起来像是坚持你所知道的东西，因为至少那样不会令人害怕或未知。但实际上，原地不动是你能做的最不安全的事情。基本上，你注定会落后。我在 Facebook 时切身体会到了这一点，因为我前两年在人力资源部门，你可以清楚地看到，一年的最高绩效者，如果他们没有成长和变化，如果他们没有足够快地发展他们的团队，不到一年，他们就会陷入困境，因为公司已经不一样了。

And I think this is happening with AI as well. Um, which is that we do have these instincts to like hold on to what we know and to defend what we know and to fight for what we know for a bunch of different reasons. Many of them good. But the future is going to be defined by the people that are willing to just take the stance of learning and to throw themselves into this change, scary and unknown as it is. Um and that that message again remains true in this this wild wild world.

中文：我认为这也发生在 AI 上。嗯，也就是说，我们确实有这些本能，想要紧抓我们所知道的东西，捍卫我们所知道的东西，并为我们所知道的东西而奋斗，原因有很多，其中很多是好的。但未来将由那些愿意采取学习立场、投身于这种变化的人来定义，尽管它既可怕又未知。嗯，这个信息再次在这个疯狂无常的世界中依然成立。

Before we get into just what how the advice is different which when you go back to your summary of the two kind of items that kind of summarized the idea one is become redundant and then two what was the second uh sentence.

中文：在我们深入了解这些建议究竟有何不同之前，当你回顾你对那两类项目的总结时，这种总结的想法是：一是变得多余，二是第二句是什么。

The second one is basically don't worry it's all going to be okay. Don't worry. Yeah. Okay. So those don't feel necessarily correct anymore.

中文：第二个基本上就是别担心，一切都会好起来的。别担心。是的。好的。所以那些感觉不再那么正确了。

So we're going to get into that because I think that's as you said the core of people's concern. that was like comforting and now it's like well are you sure? Yeah. Um this grief piece just to spend a little more time here. I've been I've been seeing this a lot in a lot of different professions. I've done these surveys that um we might get into a little bit but like just engineering as a role has completely transformed in two years. It's been like the same job forever. Writing code, sitting there writing code in various forms of idees, no longer part of the job. Now it's talking to your AI to write the code. Whether you're there or not, that's where it's all going. It's going to be 100% write this thing, build this thing. And I used to be an engineer and I moved into product and I was I was so missing that flow state of being an engineer, just sitting there coding, building. And now that's gone.

中文：所以我们会深入探讨这个问题，因为我认为正如你所说，这是人们关心的核心问题。之前那种感觉像是安慰人心的，现在就会变成“你确定吗？”嗯，这里关于悲伤的部分，我想多花一点时间讲讲。我在很多不同的职业中都看到了这种情况。我做过一些调查，我们可能会稍微谈到，但就像工程师这个角色在两年内已经完全改变了一样。以前一直是同样的工作——写代码，坐在那里用各种 IDE 写代码——现在已经不再是工作的一部分了。现在是和你的 AI 对话来写代码。无论你是否在场，这都是未来的发展方向。未来将百分之百是“写这个东西，建造这个东西”。我以前是工程师，后来转到产品岗位，我非常怀念作为工程师时的那种心流状态，就是坐在那里写代码，构建东西。而现在那种感觉已经不复存在了。

You no longer sit there and just build a thing. You're just like waiting for agents to run and then checking. You probably have a hundred different agents and it's just like a very strange new job. And I've heard from a lot of engineers just like I really miss what it used to be. Yeah. Anything more there about just I don't know what you're hearing from folks about just like man this sucks. No, it's exactly um it's such a perfect example of like the grief. Um I was giving a speech like two weeks ago at you know pretty fast growing tech company and this guy came up to me after and he'd been at the company for a couple of years so it's gone through like a huge amount of change and he was talking to me about the fact that he just wasn't enjoying his role as much anymore and my brain immediately went to oh right like you enjoyed it when it was smaller and there was more creativity and now there's more structure and so I was talking to him about that and it took like a while and to some extent like I want to go talk to him again because I feel like I missed it in the first conversation where actually I think what he was talking about was the grief that is very present for him now in the fact that he's not sure what is his current job like what is this the company has grown and so he's more in a more structured environment and what is just the simple fact that engineering has totally changed.

中文：你不再坐在那里只是构建一个东西。你只是等待代理运行然后进行检查。你可能有一百个不同的代理，这就像是一份非常奇怪的新工作。我也从很多工程师那里听说过，他们真的很怀念过去的日子。是的。还有什么吗？关于你从大家那里听到的，像是‘哇，这太糟糕了’之类的感受。不，这正好，是这种悲伤的完美例子。嗯，两周前我在一家发展非常快的科技公司做演讲，然后有个人演讲后走过来找我，他在公司已经工作了好几年，所以经历了大量的变化。他跟我说，他对自己的角色不再像以前那样感到享受，我脑子里立刻想的是，哦，原来你在公司还小的时候觉得很有趣，有更多的创造力，现在公司更有结构性了。所以我就跟他谈了这个问题，不过用了挺长时间，而且在某种程度上，我想我还想再去找他谈谈，因为我觉得我第一次谈话时没抓住重点，其实我认为他真正想表达的是他现在非常明显地感受到一种失落感，因为他不确定自己目前的工作是什么——公司发展起来了，他处在一个更有结构性的环境里，而工程方面也完全变了，这就是事实的简单体现。

20:00 - 30:00

Um, and a lot of what he was talking about was how much he missed being more handson, which is, you know, one way of saying it. But I think that that grief is happening for a lot of people. I think engineering is like probably one of the most visceral areas where people's jobs have genuinely transformed. Um, you know, so you had someone on last week, um, who talked about like the job used to be rowing and now Yeah. from OpenAI. She said like the job used to be rowing and now it's like steering. Steering. And I was like, I feel like there's a lot of people out in the world right now that are like, I don't want to [__] steer. Do you know what I mean? I want to row. like I like rowing or I I I mean it's and I think it can be hard to separate I like rowing or I'm scared that rowing is the only thing I'm ever going to be good at or it's what I know and I don't know if I uh can be good at steering and I think that's happening in a lot of disciplines you know um and so that grief like first and foremost like that grief is really real you know I was talking to a product leader just the other day who was like I don't know man we're like all supposed to be these like you know universal builders now and and she was like I don't it's kind of lonely you know she's like I miss these parts of the collaboration that have been a little bit stripped away because now I'm working with robots all the time you know and I was like I just said to her like yeah man that sucks sit with it for a second you know like change sucks it also can be awesome but we don't have to be fluffy bunnies about this we can also just say this is hard.

中文：嗯，他谈论的很多内容都是关于他多么怀念更加亲身参与的工作，这是一种表达方式。但我认为这种悲伤对很多人来说都存在。我认为工程可能是人们工作真正发生巨大变化的最直接的领域之一。你知道，上周你请过一位嘉宾，她谈到工作曾经是划桨，现在呢，嗯，是从 OpenAI 来的。她说工作曾经是划桨，现在是掌舵。我当时想，我觉得现在世界上还有很多人是这样的，他们会想，我不想去掌舵。你懂我的意思吗？我只想划桨。就像我喜欢划船，或者我的意思是，我觉得很难区分我喜欢划船，还是我害怕划船会是我唯一擅长的事情，或者这是我熟悉的，我不知道我是否能在掌舵方面也做得好。我认为在很多领域都发生类似的事情。所以首先，这种悲伤是真实存在的。你知道，我前几天和一位产品领导聊，她说，‘我不知道，伙计，现在我们都应该是那种通用的打造者’，她说很孤独，她怀念那些被削弱的协作部分，因为现在她总是在和机器人一起工作。我当时就对她说，‘是啊，伙计，那很糟糕，先接受它吧。变化很糟糕，它也可以很棒，但我们不必假装一切都很美好，我们也可以直接说，这很难。’

There's so much power in just like saying the thing that you're feeling.

中文：仅仅说出你所感受到的事情就有如此大的力量。

What a what a I swear to God that that is a big chunk of what the Legos article did was just like this is hard and scary and that's and and it's going to be okay.

中文：天哪，我发誓那确实很大一部分《乐高》文章做的事情就是这样：这很难，很可怕，但没关系，会没事的。

You know, this loneliness piece is such a important part to touch on. I had um Fiona Fung on the podcast who leads Claude Code, the engineering team of Claude Code. She's Boris Cherny's boss. Fun fact. And she said this exact that they're like I asked her just what's what's kind of the downside of this world and it's engineers are used to work with a bunch of engineers. Teams used to be, you know, five engineers, 10 engineers. And now it's fewer teams, fewer engineers per team. And it's just like you're talking to agents all day. And so, so it's not the same.

中文：你知道，这种孤独感确实是一个非常重要的话题。我曾邀请 Fiona Fung 参加播客，她领导 Claude Code 的工程团队。她是 Boris Cherny 的老板。有趣的事实。她说的正是这样。我问她，这个世界有什么样的缺点，她说工程师们习惯于与一群工程师一起工作。团队通常是五个工程师，十个工程师。而现在团队更少，每个团队的工程师也更少。整天都在跟代理打交道。所以，这就不一样了。

It's not the same. It's not the same. And I think that's actually something that leaders of companies that are actually like in charge of org structures and thinking about what the future of structure of teams, you know, needs to look like. You actually need to think about it cuz like yeah, maybe you can like strip out all the humans and you get all this productivity and maybe you get efficiency, but you also get sad humans. Do you know what I mean? And like that doesn't lead to like the best work for anyone. Like I thought your survey data around the fact that small teams and smaller companies are so much happier than people at the bigger companies was really interesting. Um just because a that like very much resonates with what I see in all my conversations with leaders. Um, but it also to me is a reflection of like I think we're seeing more at these bigger companies where people are stripping out management layers and there's a lot more pressure on productivity and and things like that and there's less room for the human, you know, there's less room for the joy and the excitement when all you're doing is focusing on optimizing cost and robot efficiency, you know?

中文：这不一样。 这不一样。 我认为这实际上是公司领导者负责组织结构并思考团队结构的未来需要是什么样子的事情。 你实际上需要考虑一下，因为是的，也许你可以去掉所有的人类，你会得到所有这些生产力，也许你会得到效率，但你也会得到悲伤的人类。 你知道我的意思吗？ 这样并不会让任何人都喜欢最好的工作。 就像我认为您关于小团队和小公司比大公司的人幸福得多这一事实的调查数据非常有趣。 嗯，只是因为这与我在与领导者的所有对话中看到的内容非常共鸣。 嗯，但这对我来说也反映出，我认为我们在这些大公司中看到了更多的情况，人们正在剥离管理层，生产力等方面面临更大的压力，而且人类的空间也越来越少，你知道，当你所做的一切都专注于优化成本和机器人效率时，快乐和兴奋的空间就更少了，你知道吗？

Yeah, man. There's so much to talk about here. Um there's this really cool framework I don't know mental model that Cory Doctorow wrote about uh a while ago where he talks about the the centaur and the reverse centaur. You heard of this?

中文：是啊，伙计。这里有太多东西可以聊了。嗯，有一个我不知道是不是叫心理模型的超级酷的框架，是 Cory Doctorow 前一阵子写的，他在里面谈到了半人马和反半人马。你听说过这个吗？

No, but I love it already.

中文：不，但我已经爱上它了。

So, okay. So, I think I don't know even how to pronounce it. Centaur. Does that sound right? Centaur. Okay. So, centaur is a human body on top of a animal like a horse. Sorry. A human head, torso, top.

中文：所以，好吧。所以，我想我甚至不知道怎么发音。半人马。听起来对吗？半人马。好吧。所以，半人马是一个人的身体在像马这样的动物上面。抱歉。是人的头部、躯干，上半身。

Clearly, you do not read enough Greek mythology.

中文：显然，你没有读足够的希腊神话。

I just watched the Odyssey. I'm an expert on all things.

中文：我刚看完《奥德赛》。我对所有事情都是专家。

your kid is going to get older and you're going to read the like lightning thief books and you'll get it.

中文：你的孩子会慢慢长大，你会读像《闪电窃贼》这样的书，然后你就会理解了。

The Lightning Thief. Okay. Yeah, I'll look forward to it. Okay. So, so idea is a centaur is human head controlling a animal body. Reverse centaur is an animal head controlling a human body. So, the the way he his kind of insight here is what we want is AI that we control. We are in charge. It's doing our bidding. Awesome centaur. It's a cool way to live. What we need to avoid and fear is the reverse centaur where the AI is using us to do things like Door Dash people and Uber people are in that world already, not the funnest life. And it might expand to knowledge work and I think that's a lot of people's fears. You're just this like thing that's just controlling agents and just this like closing gap of here's where humans still are valuable and then AI is kind of telling you where to build and what to do and then it's and then it's doing the thing. So, so I've been thinking a lot about that.

中文：《闪电窃贼》。好的。是的，我会期待的。好的。那么，想法是这样的：人马是人类的头控制动物的身体。逆向人马是动物的头控制人类的身体。所以，他的见解是，我们想要的是我们可以控制的 AI。我们掌握主导权，它按我们的意愿行事。很棒的人马。这是一种很酷的生活方式。我们需要避免和害怕的是逆向人马，即 AI 利用我们去做事情，比如 Door Dash 派送人或者 Uber 运送人，在那个世界里生活的人已经存在了，并不是最有趣的生活。它可能会扩展到知识工作，我认为这是很多人的担忧。你只是这样一个东西，控制着代理，然后只是像在弥合人类仍然有价值的差距，AI 在告诉你应该建设什么和做什么，然后它去做事情。所以，我一直在思考这个问题。

Yeah. I mean, I want to get to the fear side of this and the fear narrative as well because I think that's one of the things that is really different uh in this this stage uh and this sort of phase because it's really hard to tell people like lean into change when they're like but wait like what's on the other side? Like you're telling me to let go of my Legos. You're telling me to make myself irrelevant. like [__] you. You know what I mean? Like I I don't believe there's a job on the other side. And I think that fear narrative like I am sure some of it is real, but some of it is really overblown and it's and it's creating like a pretty toxic environment for people where it's so hard to lean into this change with joy or excitement or any sense of opportunity. I always say like the narrative right now is literally like okay we hired this new employee. This new employee is the smartest employee that you have ever met.

中文：是的。我的意思是，我想谈谈这个问题的恐惧面和恐惧叙事，因为我认为这是在这个阶段和这个阶段特别不同的地方之一，因为很难让人们在面对变化时鼓起勇气，你还会想：等等，对面是什么？你叫我放下我的乐高玩具，你叫我让自己变得无关紧要，去你妈的。你明白我的意思吗？我不相信对面会有工作。我觉得这种恐惧叙事，其中有些肯定是真的，但有些真的被夸大了，而且它正在为人们创造一种相当有毒的环境，让人很难以喜悦、兴奋或任何机会感去拥抱这种变化。我总是说，现在的叙事简直就是‘好吧，我们雇佣了这个新员工。这个新员工是你见过的最聪明的员工。’

This employee is like 10 times smarter than you and I want you to pour every single thing that you know into this employee and then they're going to take your job in six months. Like who the [] wants to do that? Do you know what I mean? No one wants to do that. Like that is not a good narrative for anyone. By the way, it's also not reality. Like as of right now, like there is not a lot of data, although you may have more than I do that says that AI is genuinely taking jobs away. Um, and I have a lot of beef to pick with all the AI branded layoffs out there because they're [] Like they're not about AI. Like they are about badly run companies slapping an AI label and getting some share points from that versus saying, "Whoops, we made we hired too many people." Um, and they're propagating this fear narrative that is like all these jobs are your job is going away, right? There is no job on the other side.

中文：这个员工比你聪明十倍，我希望你把自己知道的每一件事都倾囊相授给这个员工，然后六个月后他们就会取代你的工作。说实话，有谁他妈的愿意这样做？你懂我的意思吗？没人愿意那样做。这对任何人来说都不是一个好故事。顺便说一句，这也不现实。就目前而言，虽然你可能比我掌握更多数据，但并没有很多证据表明 AI 真的在抢走工作。嗯，我对所有以 AI 名义裁员的事件有很多意见，因为它们他妈的根本不是关于 AI 的。它们只是管理不善的公司贴上 AI 标签以获取一些舆论好处，而不是说，“哎呀，我们招聘过多了。”嗯，它们在传播一种恐惧叙事，说所有这些工作——你的工作——都将消失，对吧？那边根本没有工作机会。

One of the best, so I took over this podcast, which you know called WorkLife and it's let me have all these really fun conversations with people and one of the best conversations I had uh was with this journalist named Manoush Zomorodi and she has been a journalist for 30 years. You want to talk about an industry that people have been predicting the death of for 30 years, right? Journalism. And Manoush has done everything like she started the BBC and she was uh super early in audio and she did this like crazy crypto audio podcast and she's also like she's the host of TED Radio Hour. So, Manoush over 30 years has built a very successful career in an industry that is being constantly disrupted. And from talking to her, I basically walked away with this really interesting question that is totally different than, "What would you do if you believed your job was going to disappear?" It was, "What would you do if you believed your job was always going to exist?

中文：这是最棒的之一，所以我接管了这个播客，你们知道它叫做《工作生活》(WorkLife)，它让我能够与人进行所有这些非常有趣的对话。我做过最棒的对话之一，是和一位名叫 Manoush Zomorodi 的记者。她已经做记者 30 年了。你想说一个人们预测已经消亡 30 年的行业，对吧？就是新闻行业。Manoush 经历了各种事情，比如她在 BBC 工作，早期就涉足音频，她还做过一个疯狂的加密音频播客，而且她还是 TED Radio Hour 的主持人。因此，Manoush 在 30 年的职业生涯中，在一个不断被颠覆的行业中建立了非常成功的职业生涯。通过与她交谈，我基本上得出了一个非常有趣的问题，这个问题完全不同于“如果你相信你的工作将会消失，你会做什么？”而是，“如果你相信你的工作将永远存在，你会做什么？”

It was just going to look completely different every six years." And I just kind of wish that was the conversation we were having about all the jobs in tech and honestly all the jobs that are theoretically going to get taken by AI, which is like the form is definitely going to change. But until we have real evidence, what if we believe that they're not going away? They're just going to reinvent themselves.

中文：“它每六年就会完全不同。” 我只是有点希望我们谈论所有科技行业的工作，以及所有理论上将被 AI 取代的工作时，讨论的就是这个，事实是形式肯定会改变。但在我们有真正证据之前，如果我们相信这些工作不会消失呢？它们只是会重新自我革新。

That is awesome advice. And that's exactly what's been happening so far. Yeah, there's always this fear that, okay, but now it'll be different in X years, but that is actually exactly what's been happening. Engineering exists, different job.

中文：那是很棒的建议。这正是到目前为止发生的情况。是的，总是有这样的担心，好吧，但在 X 年后会不会有所不同，但实际上这正是一直在发生的情况。工程存在，不同的工作。

There's actually more demand than ever for engineers.

中文：实际上对工程师的需求比以往任何时候都多。

Exactly. Your data said that. And I was like, "Thank you for publishing this data, Lenny." Before we get into the the advice kind of how it's evolved, there's a couple things I want to share which touch on things you mentioned about how people are feeling. So, I'll share these images on the screen as we talk about this of just people's feelings right now. Just to kind of come back to that point. Um, so we looked we did the survey for two years now in a row of how tech people are feeling and how they're feeling about AI and all these things. And so we have uh a trend now of over time how things are changing. And we look at burnout and optimism. And in 2025 44% of people said they feel burned out. LA or this year 55% of people said they are burned out. That's a huge jump. That's 10% increase in a year of people feeling burnt out. And it makes sense. as you said, you're basically now expected to do more work, but not probably more money.

中文：完全正确。你的数据说明了这一点。我当时的想法是，“谢谢你发布这些数据，莱尼。”在我们进入关于建议是如何演变的内容之前，我想分享几件事，它们涉及到你提到的关于人们感受的内容。所以，在我们讨论人们当前的感受时，我会在屏幕上分享这些图片。只是为了回到那个点。嗯，所以我们连续两年都做了关于科技人员感受以及他们对 AI 和这些事情看法的调查。因此，我们现在有了一个随时间变化的趋势。我们关注的是倦怠和乐观。在 2025 年，44%的人表示他们感到倦怠。而在今年，55%的人说他们感到倦怠。这是一个巨大的跳升。一年内感到倦怠的人增加了 10%。这也是有道理的。正如你所说，你基本上现在被期望做更多工作，但收入可能并没有增加。

30:00 - 40:00

And now it's just like, okay, well cool. You got all these AI. Why aren't you getting more done? Look at all these other teams moving so much faster. We're screwed. We're going to go out of business. We got to move faster. So, so it makes sense.

中文：现在情况就是，嗯，好吧，挺好。你们有了这么多 AI。为什么没有做更多事情呢？看看其他团队进展得这么快。我们完蛋了。我们要破产了。我们必须加快速度。所以，这很有道理。

I mean, I love that you do that survey because I also think I learn a ton from it every time you've published it. Um, and it's also just like a great reality check about how people are feeling because literally what your survey says is more than half the people are feeling burnt out which is like nuts and also yeah I believe it and I think you know I mean burnout comes from a lot of different places and can mean a lot of different things to people but to me what I read inside that data was like number one like emotions are tiring and there is a lot of exhaustion trying to understand what's going on in a I mean the rate of change right now is nuts. um both in terms of like obviously the technological change but I actually think the narrative change is also pretty exhausting for people like oh this month this is important oh next month this you know like there's a thrash inside of that that's pretty tiring um you know I was emailing with a friend at openai and she was like it's taken us literally six months to go from sort of this token maxing like everybody like aggressive productivity like use AI everywhere to a conversation that's like wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait like is this actually making a difference because it's very expensive you know and she's like six months that's all it took and so if you're sitting inside that it means six months ago they were like use AI all the time every day everywhere and now they're like are you doing it well enough you know and Hilary Gridley said the same thing where she was like you know six months ago everyone was like how do I get people to use AI and now they're like how do I get people to use AI like stop using AI so badly you know and it's like that sixmon thrash often much faster than that is tiring for people the grief is tiring let alone like I think that feeling which you mentioned in your survey of like I'm going to be expected to do more for the same amount of pay like that's exhausting like that I think people feel taken advantage of, you know, and like what is in this for me?

中文：我的意思是，我很喜欢你做那个调查，因为我也觉得每次你发布它的时候，我都会从中学到很多东西。嗯，这也像是一个很棒的现实检验，看看人们的感受如何，因为你的调查实际上显示，超过一半的人感到精疲力竭，这简直太疯狂了，而且我也相信它。我认为，精疲力竭来自很多不同的地方，对不同的人可能意味着很多不同的事情，但对我来说，我在那些数据中看到的是，第一，情绪是让人疲惫的，而且试图理解发生了什么也会让人非常疲惫。我是说，目前变化的速度实在是太疯狂了。嗯，显然是技术变革，但我实际上认为叙事变化对于像这个月这样的人来说也很累人，哦，这个月很重要，哦，下个月，你知道，里面有一个折腾，这非常累人，你知道，我在 openai 和一个朋友发电子邮件，她说我们花了六个月的时间，从像每个人都喜欢激进的生产力，比如在任何地方使用 AI 那样的代币最大化，到像等待等待等待等待等待等待等待等待这样的对话 这实际上是有影响的，因为它非常昂贵，你知道，她就像六个月就这样了，所以如果你坐在里面，这意味着六个月前他们就像每天到处都在使用 AI，现在他们就像你做得足够好你知道，希拉里·格里德利也说了同样的话，她就像你知道的那样，六个月前每个人都在问我如何让人们使用 AI，现在他们就像我如何让人们使用 AI，就像停止使用 AI 一样糟糕 你知道，这就像六月的鞭打通常比这对人们来说要快得多，悲伤令人疲惫，更不用说就像我认为你在调查中提到的那种感觉，就像我将被期望为同样数额的报酬做更多的事情，就像那样让人筋疲力尽，我认为人们感觉被利用了，你知道，就像这对我来说是什么？

Um like why is it fun for me? Um what's the opportunity for me? And I think particularly at bigger companies, it feels almost adversarial sometimes, you know, where like, you know, I get why it's good for our bottom line, but remind me why that's good for me.

中文：嗯，比如说，为什么这对我来说有趣？嗯，这对我有什么机会？我认为尤其是在大公司，有时候感觉几乎像是对立的，你知道吗，就像，我明白这对我们的利润有好处，但能再提醒我为什么这对我有好处吗。

There's that actually touches on one of the biggest findings in this survey, which is that first of all, half of people that filled it out uh are feeling the happiest they've ever felt. This is an important point we need to make is not everybody's feeling fear and and uh sense that it's all doomed. That actually a lot of like half of people uh are feeling like they're having the best time of their life in their career and they're so excited about all the things going on. Like you may not feel that. You may, if you're not that, you may not believe that, but from what I can see around me, many people are very excited. Even though they're working harder than they've ever worked, they're also the happiest they've ever been about their career. Yeah. Well, and I think the context, if I remember, was like a lot of the happiness tended to be concentrated in people that were in smaller teams or had more authority like sort of.

中文：这实际上触及了这项调查中最大的发现之一，那就是首先，填写调查的人中有一半感觉他们是有史以来最快乐的。这一点很重要，我们需要强调，并不是每个人都感到恐惧或觉得一切都注定失败。实际上，很多人——大约一半的人——觉得他们正在职业生涯中度过自己最美好的时光，并且对正在发生的所有事情感到非常兴奋。你可能不会有这种感觉，如果你不是这样的人，你可能也不会相信，但从我所看到的情况来看，很多人都非常兴奋。即便他们比以往任何时候都更努力地工作，他们对自己的职业生涯依然感到前所未有的快乐。嗯，而且我记得上下文是这样的：很多快乐似乎集中在那些在小团队中或者拥有更多权力的人身上。

Yeah. Absolutely. And even more interestingly, the strongest correlation is people who said that a AI has amplified them. They feel like they figured out how to use AI to do more stuff that they're excited about. And that and interestingly, designers were the least happy from this work. And that's actually what I hear from designers is everyone's moving faster. Design can't move that fast. You have to get feedback from people. You have to go through get alignment. You need uh you need to think like sit there and think. You can't just agent iterate mon.

中文：是的，绝对如此。更有趣的是，相关性最强的是那些说 AI 放大了他们能力的人。他们觉得自己已经弄清楚了如何使用 AI 做更多让自己兴奋的事情。有意思的是，设计师在这项工作中是最不开心的。实际上，我从设计师那里听到的情况是，每个人都在加快速度，而设计跟不上这个节奏。你必须从别人那里获得反馈，必须经过协调，还需要思考、坐下来思考。你不能只是依靠代理快速迭代。

So I also think isn't there probably well I don't know if you're hearing this from the designers but there's also a like everyone's a designer now. Yeah that's also a big part of it when you're when I worked in education it's like one of those industries it's really hard to work in because everyone was a student once so everyone thinks they know things. And I feel like now designers have that where it's like oh yeah I just made this in Gemini or I just made this in Claude. Here you go. Here's my design. And and by the way, I think this is true of you know a lot of industries which is like and and whole products where it's like the gap between I made this and what is actually great, right? The gap between like I created this prototype and a product that is like exceptional is really big. The same is true obviously of design. Design just got like way more accessible to the average person. Uh at least okay design got really really accessible you know which can be exhausting when people are telling you how to do your job all the time.

中文：所以我也认为，我不知道你是否从设计师那里听到了这一点，但现在也有一种说法，每个人都是设计师。 是的，这也是其中很重要的一部分，当我在教育行业工作时，这就像那些很难工作的行业之一，因为每个人都曾经是学生，所以每个人都认为自己知道一些事情。 我觉得现在设计师们已经有了这样的感觉，哦，是的，我刚刚在 Gemini 中做了这个，或者我刚刚在 Claude 中做了这个。 干得好。 这是我的设计。 顺便说一句，我认为这对于你知道的很多行业来说都是如此，就像整个产品一样，这就像我所做的和实际上很棒的东西之间的差距，对吧？ 我创建的这个原型和出色的产品之间的差距确实很大。 设计显然也是如此。 设计对于普通人来说变得更加容易理解。 呃，至少好的设计真的很容易理解，当人们一直告诉你如何做你的工作时，这可能会让人筋疲力尽。

Yeah. I had this tweet the other day that that got a lot of um traction uh along these lines. A growing part of everyone's job is cleaning up the AI slop from other people trying to do your job.

中文：是的。前几天我发了一条推文，在这方面引起了很多关注。每个人工作中越来越大的一部分，就是清理别人试图做你工作的 AI 产生的混乱。

Okay. So, I have a lot of feelings about this and it goes to this super intelligence thing that we were talking about where it's like, you know, we saying like AI is like the smartest employee you've ever hired in the entire world and uh it's better than you at everything. And I think it causes people to like approach it that way when actually most of our experience with AI I think a lot of people uh have had the experience with AI where it's like that's wrong like what I just asked you to do that like this isn't good I always think like AI needs the same coaching and training that a human does right it needs context it needs onboarding it needs all of these things it and it's kind of much more like a like an intern like a bad intern often I call it a lazy intern Um, and what happens like to your point about AI slop is that folks are approaching it as if it's like a a great, you know, the best employee they've ever hired.

中文：好的。所以，我对这件事有很多感受，这与我们之前讨论的超级智能有关，也就是说，你知道，我们在说 AI 就像是你在整个世界上雇佣过的最聪明的员工，并且在所有方面都比你更厉害。我认为这会让人们以这种方式去对待它，而实际上我觉得大多数人对 AI 的体验是这样的——很多人都有过这样的体验：它做错了，就像我刚才让你做的事情，这并不好。我总是认为 AI 需要像人类一样的指导和培训，它需要背景知识、入职培训以及所有这些东西，它在某种程度上更像是一个实习生，通常我称它为懒惰的实习生。像你提到的关于 AI 产生的差错问题，人们之所以会这样，是因为他们把它当作自己雇佣过的最优秀的员工来看待。

So, they just like copy paste send, right? And I'm like, you would never do that if you thought about it as an intern. You would never take the presentation that an intern handed you and just like straightforward it to your boss. Like, that is a little bit insane, right? uh you would iterate on it, you would edit it, you would ask, make sure that it had all the context from like the 57 conversations that you've had with the summer intern before you ship that preso to your boss. AI is the same. And I think part of what's going on with all the slop in the world is people have like shipped accountability. Like it's like, oh, AI said this was good enough, so I'm just going to like copy paste send, you know? And that is never been how good work happens. You know what I mean? And so like I feel like we need a a change from like this super intelligent being that's better than all of us at our jobs to like no it's just a [__] intern man and like it needs the coaching and context and all of that and many iterations that most interns do.

中文：所以，他们只是喜欢复制粘贴发送，对吧？ 我想，如果你作为实习生考虑的话，你永远不会这样做。 你永远不会接受实习生交给你的演示文稿，而只是简单地把它交给你的老板。 就像，这有点疯狂，对吧？ 嗯，你会迭代它，你会编辑它，你会问，确保它具有所有上下文，例如你在将预演发送给老板之前与暑期实习生进行的 57 次对话。 AI 也是一样。 我认为世界上所有污物的部分原因是人们有责任感。 就像，哦，AI 说这已经足够好了，所以我只想复制粘贴发送，你知道吗？ 好的工作从来都不是这样发生的。 你知道我的意思？ 所以我觉得我们需要从这个比我们工作中的所有人都优秀的超级聪明人转变为不喜欢它只是一个[__]实习生，并且它需要指导和背景以及所有这些以及大多数实习生所做的许多迭代。

And I think the other thing you know to your point about accountability is or to your point about sort of like if you don't take accountability for the quality of your work that shifts to someone else right the person that receives it has to deal with it and that is like just a drain on organizations and like I literally see CEOs like we talk about this all the time in glue club like she CEOs like shipping a strategy memo that was clearly written by AI that is you role modeling for your organization that it's fine to outsource your thinking and it's fine to outsource your strategy. It's you role modeling that you don't need accountability for the work that you send. Um, and I feel like it goes down to this thing of like we're like we've this last six months we've really been like overvaluing productivity, which is just like, you know, you hear all these stories about like companies like counting tokens and having token leaderboards and it's like it brings me back to the days when people were like counting cars in a parking lot and Slack bubbles and lines of code, right?

中文：我认为你所知道的关于问责制的另一件事是，或者就你的观点而言，如果你不对你的工作质量承担责任，那么工作质量就会转移给其他人，接收工作的人必须处理它，这就像组织的一种消耗，就像我真的看到首席执行官们一样，我们一直在胶水俱乐部谈论这个问题，就像她的首席执行官们喜欢发布一份由 AI 明确编写的战略备忘录，这是你为组织树立的榜样，外包你的思维是很好的，这是很好的。 将你的策略外包就好了。 这是你的榜样，你不需要对你发送的工作负责。 嗯，我觉得这可以归结为这件事，就像我们在过去的六个月里，我们真的高估了生产力，这就像，你知道，你听到了所有这些关于公司的故事，比如计算代币和拥有代币排行榜，这就像它让我回到了人们在停车场计算汽车、Slack 泡沫和代码行的时代，对吧？

Which we all know is a really bad way to manage people. Um, and it's it's not for we've been focused on sort of like how do you run as fast as you can on the treadmill, but like not am I going anywhere, you know, and which is to me the difference between like productivity and efficiency. Like productivity is can you generate, you know, more, which at this point I think we've proven we can all generate a bunch of [__] that other people then have to wade through to the point of your tweet. But is that efficient? Does that actually move the conversation forward? And the answer lately has been why no. It does not.

中文：我们都知道，这真的是管理员工的一种非常糟糕的方式。嗯，这并不是……我们一直专注于那种‘你如何在跑步机上尽可能快地跑’，但是问题是我有没有实际前进，你知道，这对我来说就是生产力和效率的区别。生产力是你能否产生更多，而到这一点，我认为我们已经证明，我们都可以产生一堆别人必须去筛选的[__]，直到你推文的点。但这高效吗？这真的能推动讨论向前发展吗？最近的答案是——为什么不呢？不，它不能。

Yeah, there's a in that report I have this iceberg image of just like we're doing better on top. Oh, look at all the stuff, but the output is worse. Thinking judgment is coming down. So, there's a lot of a lot of things we're watching. The good news is everyone's aware of this. They're like, you know, maybe this isn't the way we should be working.

中文：是的，在那份报告中，我有一张冰山的图片，就像我们在表面上做得更好。哦，看看所有这些东西，但产出更差。思维判断正在下降。因此，我们关注的事情有很多。好消息是每个人都意识到了这一点。他们会想，你知道，也许这不是我们应该工作的方式。

No. I thought I there was this really interesting engineering report that said you know engineer like for engineering it has genuinely made people more productive but the amount of lines of code that have had to be rewritten has gone up like 8x so it's like this like very clear symbol of productivity obviously like also the security incidents have gone up etc etc so it's like there's just this difference between productivity and efficiency and I think part of your burnout data is like people are just getting swamped, you know, and that's exhausting if what you're doing all day is waiting through, did the person on the other side of this actually think about it? Did they actually care? Did that's tiring. That doesn't feel like a good use of your time.

中文：不。我以前以为有一份非常有趣的工程报告，说你知道，工程师的工程工作确实让人们更高效，但需要重写的代码行数增加了大约 8 倍，所以这就像一个非常明显的生产力象征。当然，安全事件也增加了等等，所以这就像生产力和效率之间存在差异。我认为你们关于倦怠的数据部分原因是人们只是被淹没了，你知道的，如果你一整天做的事情都是在等待，对方是否真的考虑过？他们是否真的在意？那会很累。这感觉不像是在有效利用你的时间。

It just feels a little bit infuriating, you know? Yeah. Comes back to the grief of like, oh man, I missed what I had used to be doing. Look at this weird new job I'm doing. Yeah, totally. Okay, so let's come back to your advice. We kind of went on a really important tangent, but let's summarize what's still true about giving away your Legos and then we'll talk about what's no longer true. So, I'll summarize briefly. Took some notes as you were talking. So, still true. Um, change is scary. That's normal. Understand that. It's it's part of human nature. We don't like change. Uh, learning over knowing still a very important thing to focus on. It's okay if you don't know, but if you're focused on learning, you'll be probably okay. This idea of standing still at successful companies is actually you're falling behind. The company's growing. If you're not growing and taking on new challenges and giving away stuff, you're going to fall behind.

中文：你知道吗，这种感觉有点让人愤怒。是啊。又回到了那种悲伤的情绪，像是“哎呀，我错过了以前做的事情。看看我现在做的这个奇怪的新工作。”是啊，完全一样。好吧，那我们回到你的建议上。我们有点跑题了，但让我们总结一下关于分享乐高积木仍然适用的部分，然后再谈谈已经不再适用的部分。好了，我简单总结一下。你说话的时候我做了一些笔记。仍然适用的是，变化令人害怕。这很正常，要理解这一点。这是人性的一部分，我们不喜欢变化。学习重于知道这一点仍然非常重要。如果你不知道也没关系，但如果你专注于学习，你大概会没问题。这个观点——在成功的公司停滞不前，实际上就是在落后。公司在不断发展，如果你不成长、不接受新的挑战、不分享东西，你就会落后。

40:00 - 50:00

Is there anything else core to kind of what's still Yeah.

中文：还有什么是核心的，差不多就这样吗，是的。

I think I would just add one which is change is scary and hard and the best thing you can do is lean into it, right? It is not what your instincts tell you to do, but it is actually the best thing you can do in the face of change. And that was the message of Legos, you know, basically like you need to lean into this comfort of change in order to grow. And I think it is still true today, even if it is maybe even scarier than it's ever been.

中文：我觉得我只会再补充一点，那就是改变是令人害怕和困难的，而你能做的最好的事情就是迎上它，对吧？这不是你的本能会告诉你去做的事情，但实际上在面对改变时，这是你能做的最好的事情。这也是乐高传递的信息，你知道的，基本上就是你需要迎接这种改变的舒适感才能成长。我认为这在今天依然适用，即便现在的情况可能比以往任何时候都更令人害怕。

This season's supporting sponsor is DX. Now that everybody at your company is finally using AI, the question that engineering leaders face is no longer are we using AI, but is it paying off? With DX, you can measure and benchmark the impact of AI adoption across your full product life cycle. DX shows you where AI is helping developers and where it's creating new bottlenecks. You can also use it to evaluate AI vendors, monitor costs and licenses, and see exactly what's limiting your agents. That's why hundreds of enterprises, including Snowflake, Sony, and BNY, use the DX platform to measure AI's impact on developer productivity. Visit getdx.com/lenny to get a demo of dx. That's getdx.com/lenny. Okay. So now what is what is different? Uh the advice broadly is okay give away make yourself redundant. It's going to be okay.

中文：本季的支持赞助商是 DX。现在你们公司每个人终于都在使用 AI，工程领导面临的问题不再是我们是否在使用 AI，而是它是否有回报？有了 DX，你可以衡量并基准整个产品生命周期中 AI 采用的影响。DX 会显示 AI 在帮助开发者的地方，以及它在哪些地方造成了新的瓶颈。你还可以用它来评估 AI 供应商、监控成本和许可，并准确了解是什么限制了你的代理。这就是为什么包括 Snowflake、Sony 和 BNY 在内的数百家企业使用 DX 平台来衡量 AI 对开发者生产力的影响。访问 getdx.com/lenny 获取 DX 的演示。就是 getdx.com/lenny。好了。那么现在有什么不同吗？呃，总体建议是：没关系，放手吧，让自己变得多余。没关系的。

Uh I know that's the one that's hard to talk about today. Yeah. Make yourself irrelevant everybody. It's gonna go great. Um yeah. You know, it's funny like when I when AI first really took off and I first took me a while to really understand what was going on in total honesty. I was a skeptic for a while where I was like we've been automating things for a while. What is this? Um but eventually I I got on board and all of a sudden I was like oh you know that thing I used to do before I went to give a speech at someone's company where I was like how how fast is your headcount growing? For me that was like the only symbol I had of like are there people to give Legos to? you know, if I'm gonna get up on stage and be like, "Give away your Legos." A lot of times people are like, "Wait a minute. We're not hiring anyone. Like, who do I give it to?" And but now I was like, "Oh, okay." Like, this message is like even more relevant because like everyone can try to automate parts of their job and everyone can give Legos away.

中文：呃我知道这是今天很难谈的一个。 是的。 让自己与大家无关。 一切都会很棒的。 嗯是的。 你知道，这很有趣，就像当 AI 第一次真正起飞时，我第一次花了一段时间才能真正完全诚实地理解正在发生的事情。 我有一段时间持怀疑态度，我觉得我们已经自动化了一段时间了。 这是什么？ 嗯，但最终我加入了公司，突然间我就想，哦，你知道我在去某人的公司发表演讲之前经常做的事情，我想你们的员工人数增长有多快？ 对我来说，这就像我拥有的唯一象征，比如有人可以给乐高积木吗？ 你知道，如果我要站上舞台说，“把你的乐高玩具送给别人。” 很多时候人们会说，“等一下。我们不雇用任何人。比如，我该把它给谁？” 但现在我想，“哦，好吧。” 就像，这条消息更加相关，因为每个人都可以尝试自动化部分工作，每个人都可以赠送乐高积木。

And I will tell you, it has been an interesting journey realizing how different it is to give things away to robots than it is to give them to a human. And you know, principally the point was like of Legos was like you take this thing you've been working on and you fully hand it to someone else. One of my favorite questions that I get asked at companies when I do the Legos talk is what is the best way to give Legos away to someone else? And I love it because I think basically people expect me to be like, "So, you should incredibly carefully hand this Lego to this person and explain to them exactly why you put it in the position you put it in, you know, like perfectly describe your tower. Make sure they have like an instruction manual that they won't [__] up." And my answer is actually no. The best way to give Legos away is to chuck them at their face and run in the other direction because our tendency again is towards control.

中文：我会告诉你，这是一段有趣的旅程，让我意识到把东西给机器人和给人类是多么不同。你知道吗，原则上乐高的重点在于，你把自己一直在制作的东西完全交给别人。当我在公司做乐高讲座时，我最喜欢被问的一个问题是，把乐高最快的方式给别人是什么？我喜欢这个问题，因为我认为人们基本上期望我会说："所以，你应该非常小心地把这个乐高交给这个人，并向他们详细解释你为什么把它放在那个位置，比如完美地描述你的塔。确保他们有说明书，不会搞砸它。"而我的回答实际上是否定的。把乐高给别人最好是把它扔到他们脸上，然后朝另一个方向跑，因为我们的倾向还是控制欲。

Like our tendency is to be like you will build this tower exactly how I built it and you will not mess it up. But actually like the point is no you're giving it away. You need to fully separate your mind. You need to just hand it to them and trust that the future of whatever that tower is belongs to them. Um and there is both obviously like a lot of fear and a whole bunch of stuff that comes with that. But there's a huge amount of freedom, right? You take this brain space and you ship it to them. Um, interestingly, like one of my biggest realizations was that delegating something to a robot is not the same as giving it to a human because you cannot get rid of the oversight, right? Like you it's more like delegating something to someone on your team. You still own it. And so we've given yes we've gotten more efficient because the robots can do X Y and Z for us but it's not the same as giving it away to a human because we still own the oversight.

中文：就像我们的倾向是，你会想要像我建造的那样准确地建造这座塔，而且你不会弄乱它。但实际上，重点是，不，你要放手。你需要完全分开你的思想。你需要只是把它交给他们，并相信这座塔的未来属于他们。嗯，这显然会带来很多恐惧和一堆其他事情。但同时也有巨大的自由，对吧？你把这个大脑空间交给他们。嗯，有趣的是，我最大的一个领悟是，把事情委托给机器人和交给人类是不一样的，因为你无法摆脱监督，对吧？就像你把事情委托给你团队中的某人，你仍然拥有它。所以我们确实提高了效率，因为机器人可以为我们做 X、Y 和 Z，但这并不等同于交给人类，因为我们仍然掌握监督权。

We still own the sort of final product and that means the mental tax stays with you. So like yes in some ways I can do more but psychologically I still have all the burden of all the stuff that all the robots are doing you know and I think that does make it quite different because it just means you don't have as much space to then go on to the new things right you're still you've still got all the tax of the cost of oversight is not zero do you know what I mean again I wonder if if this is part of what's going on with some of your burnout data is just like all of a sudden I'm overseeing all these robots and maybe all these humans and like it's not it's it's it's more and um so anyway I think that's one of the biggest differences is just like it isn't exactly the same.

中文：我们仍然拥有最终产品的那种所有权，这意味着心理负担仍然留在你身上。所以某种程度上我确实可以做更多事情，但在心理上我仍然承担着所有机器人所做的事情的所有负担，你知道吗？我觉得这确实让情况有所不同，因为这意味着你没有那么多空间去做新的事情，对吧？你仍然承担着监督成本的负担，并不是零，你明白我的意思吗？我再次想知道，这是否也是你的部分倦怠数据背后的原因，就是突然之间我要监督所有这些机器人，甚至可能还有所有这些人，而且负担更多。所以无论如何，我认为最大的不同之一就是事情并不完全一样。

It's like the difference between like transferring a Lego to someone where you genuinely get rid of it versus like delegating a Lego to someone. It's so funny the way you described it where you you need to not be you need to disconnect from the responsibility of this thing now and it's the opposite now where somebody else is doing this the AI but you're still responsible. Yeah. And so it's like having this Lego tower with this little robot coming through and okay, I'm going to build I'm going to work on this now, but you're it's you still have to represent this tower to your boss. And so I could 100% see this metaphor clear.

中文：这就像把乐高真正转给别人，你真的不再拥有它，和把乐高委派给别人之间的区别。你描述的方式太有趣了，你需要不去、不再承担这个东西的责任，而现在情况正好相反，别人在处理这个事情，是 AI 在处理，但你仍然负责。是的。所以这就像有一个乐高塔，有个小机器人过来，我现在要建造、要处理这个事，但你仍然需要向你的老板呈现这座塔。我完全能理解这个比喻，非常清楚。

If you're a manager, it's a familiar feeling, right? Your team got twice as big and now you just have these weird little robots that occasionally like [] up the tower and you have to be like, "No, no, no, no, no, no. That's not what I said." You know, which is like again managing an intern. Like you get it. But if you're not a manager, like if you've never been a manager, and I do think it's important to name that like like I said, like managing robots, those skills are very similar to managing human humans. They have less feelings, but you know, it's all the same skills of like oversight and, you know, giving them context and correcting their work and coaching and like all those skills are the same for managing a robot um as they are for managing a human. And a lot of people don't like that [] Like so many people actively like chose not to become a manager. Do you know what I mean? And so there is exhaustion that comes with if you haven't you know if you don't enjoy delegating if you haven't worked on all these skills for many many years like then suddenly you are in that stance of management but it also just I mean it just means literally everyone in the world is a manager now you know and um all you're doing when you're delegating to robots is delegating just like you would to another human on your team.

中文：如果你是一个经理，这种感觉很熟悉吧？你的团队增长了一倍，而现在你只有这些奇怪的小机器人，它们偶尔会把塔弄乱，而你得说，“不，不，不，不，不，不。这不是我说的。”你知道的，这就像管理一个实习生一样。你明白的。但如果你不是经理，比如你从未当过经理，我确实认为指出这一点很重要，就像我说的，管理机器人，这些技能和管理人类非常相似。它们的感情少一些，但你知道，监督、提供背景、纠正工作和辅导这些技能对管理机器人和管理人类来说都是一样的。很多人不喜欢这种[__]。很多人主动选择不成为经理。你明白我的意思吗？因此，如果你没有——你知道的——如果你不喜欢授权，如果你多年没有培养所有这些技能，那么突然间你处于管理的姿态时就会感到疲惫。但这也只是意味着，实际上现在世界上的每个人都是经理。你知道的，当你把任务委派给机器人时，你所做的就像把任务委派给团队中的另一个人一样。

So, you know, I always say the happiest the max people should be managing is like 10 to 12 employees. Like I've I've managed bigger teams than that and it was not a good look. And I don't think there's any data that says that people can manage more than that now. And if you count robots, like I'm worried for people's like psychology, you know what I mean? Um in terms of like the amount you have to hold in your head.

中文：所以，你知道，我总是说，一个人能管理的最幸福的最大人数大概是 10 到 12 个员工。我管理过比这更大的团队，但那并不好看。我也不认为有任何数据表明人们现在可以管理更多的员工。如果算上机器人，我担心人们的心理状态，你明白我的意思吗？嗯，关于你必须在脑子里处理的信息量。

Yeah. I build a lot of random stuff and I have all these different agents running and on the one hand it's so awesome and all these things get done and it's just like wow look at this thing go I did all these things and then also I get pinged all day from all these guys they're like what about this okay oh I'm stuck here oh is this good and I'm like okay I got to look through this all actually so I work with an actual human engineer also and I'm just like it makes you appreciate a human awesome engineer that you could just give a rough idea to and they could run with it and do an awesome versus this sucks. Okay, let's try again and then sit there for five minutes and wait.

中文：是的。我创建了很多随机的东西，而且我运行了各种不同的代理。一方面这非常棒，所有这些事情都能完成，就像哇，看这个东西运行起来了，我完成了所有这些事情；另一方面，我整天收到这些人的消息，他们会问这个怎么样，好吧，我卡在这里，这个好吗，我就得实际去检查这些。所以我也会和一个真正的人类工程师一起工作，我就会觉得，更加欣赏一个出色的人类工程师，你只需要给他们一个大概的想法，他们就能发挥并做出很棒的东西，而不是这种糟糕的情况，好吧，我们再试一次，然后坐在那里等五分钟。

Uh so yeah, it is the difference between managing junior employees and managing senior employees. Do you know what I mean? Like AI right now pretty junior employees. It's not my favorite form of management. I always say like give me the high performers, give me I can turn them into these incredible rocket ships. Like managing interns, managing like folks that are brand new to the workplace is pretty tiring. And I do think that is like what it feels like managing AI. And it's so different, like I said, than like throwing a Lego at someone and running the other direction, which you can do with your senior engineer, you know?

中文：嗯，所以是管理初级员工和管理高级员工之间的区别。你明白我的意思吗？就像现在的 AI 就像初级员工一样。我并不是最喜欢这种管理方式。我总是说，给我高绩效的员工，给我，我可以把他们变成不可思议的火箭般的人才。管理实习生，管理那些刚进入职场的人是相当累人的。我确实觉得，这就是管理 AI 的感觉。正如我所说，这和扔一块乐高积木给某人然后跑开是完全不同的，你可以对你的高级工程师那样做，你懂吗？

Such a good point. Okay, we'll get to like actual advice. Here's what you should probably do. But before we get there, what else is different about the original advice around giving away Legos? The first one, so good. Just like uh you made it so obvious why it is very different to give your Legos away to a machine because you're not actually giving away a they're just going to do the work and then you're still responsible for it and you have to oversee it. Yeah. Yeah.

中文：好观点。好吧，我们来讲一些实际建议。这是你可能应该做的事情。但在我们讲之前，围绕赠送乐高积木的原始建议还有哪些不同呢？第一个，就太好了。就像，你让人非常明显地看到，把你的乐高积木给机器和真正赠送别人是很不同的，因为你实际上并没有真正赠送，它们只是会去完成工作，而你仍然要对其负责，并且必须监督它。是的，是的。

And I think the second thing that's really different and we sort of talked about a little bit already, but like my message was always like you give things away because the only way you can make space for new opportunity is by giving things away. Do you know what I mean? And like that has two assumptions under it. One that it's good to give things away and two that there's new opportunity on the other side. Um, and I think this, you know, what I talked about with the fear narrative is one of the things that's driving me nuts in the world, and we talk about it a lot in Glue Club is just this dominant narrative that like all these jobs are going away because of AI and, you know, all these layoffs that are branded as AI. like that is not going to support anybody being in a stance of like yeah let's like delegate everything to these robots let's give them every piece of you know our brain and our data so that we can have all this new opportunity that's coming along like I think it is the hardest conversation to have right now and in you know to your point about like there's lots of people out there that are really excited there are and I want that for everyone because this is like an incredible moment like you know I've been in technology for almost 20 years and um I've seen a lot but like this is this is one of those moments this is you know the mobile phone on steroids where it's like all sorts of businesses are going to be created I'm a believer that a lot of jobs are going to be created because of this technology but I think we got to start having that conversation in order to get to the place where everyone can be leaning in right everyone can say oh it's great to automate all these tasks that I hate because it gives me more time to do the things that I love, you know, which is like I think to your point about the people that feel amplified by it, it's like, oh, I don't have to do all this boring ass work.

中文：我认为第二件真正不同的事情，我们有点之前也谈过，但我的观点一直是，你之所以要放手一些东西，是因为你只有通过放手才能为新的机会腾出空间。你明白我的意思吗？这背后有两个假设。第一，放手是好的；第二，另一边有新的机会。嗯，我觉得，我之前提到的关于恐惧叙事的内容，是驱使我抓狂的事情之一，我们在 Glue Club 里也常常讨论，就是这个主导叙事：所有这些工作都因为 AI 而会消失，而且，你知道，所有这些被贴上 AI 标签的裁员事件。这不会支持任何人采取这样的立场：是的，让我们把一切委托给这些机器人，让他们了解我们的大脑和数据，这样我们就可以拥有即将到来的所有新机会，就像我认为这是现在最困难的对话，你知道你的观点，就像有很多人非常兴奋，我希望每个人都这样，因为这就像一个令人难以置信的时刻，你知道我已经在技术领域工作了近 20 年 嗯，我见过很多，但就像这就是那些时刻之一，你知道，手机在类固醇上，就像各种各样的企业将被创建，我相信，由于这项技术，将会创造很多就业机会，但我认为我们必须开始进行这样的对话，以便达到每个人都可以倾斜的地方，每个人都可以说，哦，自动化所有这些我讨厌的任务真是太棒了，因为它给了我更多的时间来做这些事情 我喜欢，你知道，这就像我认为那些感觉被它放大的人，就像，哦，我不必做所有这些无聊的工作。

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I can just focus on the things that bring me joy, right? I can focus on the things that I'm great at. That's what we want. But while there's this narrative out there that, you know, media companies are propagating that says like there's nothing for you on the other side. Do you know what I mean? We've we got universal basic income. Everyone needs to be supported by the state because no one's going to have a job in 10 years.

中文：我可以只专注于那些给我带来快乐的事情，对吧？我可以专注于我擅长的事情。这就是我们想要的。但是，当外界有这样的说法时，你知道吗，媒体公司在传播，说在另一边你什么都得不到。你明白我的意思吗？我们有全民基本收入。每个人都需要国家的支持，因为十年后没有人会有工作。

Like, who the [__] wants to give Legos to robots if that's the narrative? No one. I went to this um thing called Foo Camp. Have you heard of Foo Camp? I've heard of it. Tim O'Reilly who started O'Reilly Media, awesome, smart guy. He came up with web 2.0 is a concept. uh he organizes these little kind of intimate camps where he invites people that he thinks are you know can contribute to this conversation um to talk about all like a topic and this last one is around just like what happens with humans when AI does more and more of our job and it started with him talking to some I think it was a lawyer who's just like okay I'm hoarding this very specific knowledge I have about doing this job so that AI cannot do it it's like I need protect it because otherwise I'm I'm going to be replaced. They don't need me anymore. And I feel like a lot of people are probably feeling that. A lot of specific niche professions especially.

中文：比如，如果故事情节是这样，谁他妈的会想把乐高给机器人？没人会。我去参加了一个叫做 Foo Camp 的活动。你听说过 Foo Camp 吗？我听说过。Tim O'Reilly，他创办了 O'Reilly Media，是个很棒、很聪明的人。他提出了 Web 2.0 这个概念。嗯，他组织了一些小型的、亲密的营会，他会邀请那些他认为能够为这个讨论作出贡献的人来谈论各种话题，这次的主题是 AI 越来越多地完成我们的工作时，人类会发生什么。他一开始就和一个律师谈话，我记得是个律师，他那样说：‘我得积累和保护我掌握的这种非常具体的职业知识，这样 AI 才干不了我的工作，我得保护它，否则我就会被替代，他们不再需要我了。’我觉得很多人都可能有这种感受，尤其是一些非常具体的小众职业的人。

Yeah, absolutely. And I go back first of all, yes, of course. Like, how could you not be feeling that way?

中文：是的，绝对是的。我首先要回去，当然了。就像，你怎么可能不有那种感觉呢？

I don't know. Maybe I'm an abundance person and maybe I'll regret saying this in six months or five years, but I'm like every piece of data I have from my entire life and you know some of these convers conversations I've had like the one with Manoush say you got to lean in. You know what I mean? That protection and holding on and gripping to what you know is not the way you thrive in change. Um it's not the people that define the future. And you know again the minut story would say lawyers are always going to exist. They are going to look completely different in every six years or every three years or whatever. So what do you think the next version of a lawyer looks like? Do you want to be part of designing that? Do you want to be part of creating that? Do you want to be part of figuring that out? Or do you want to stay here and try to protect what you know?

中文：我不知道。也许我是一个充满丰富的人，也许我会在六个月或五年后后悔说这句话，但我就像我一生中所有数据的集合，你知道，我有些对话，比如和 Manoush 的那次，会说你必须积极参与。你明白我的意思吗？那种保护自己、紧抓已知的方式，并不是在变化中茁壮成长的方法。嗯，塑造未来的人不是这些人。你知道的，再举个例子，律师总会存在。他们每六年或每三年甚至更短时间看起来都会完全不同。所以你认为下一代律师什么样子？你想参与设计吗？你想参与创造吗？你想参与弄清楚吗？还是你想留在这里，试着保护你已知的东西？

And this is I think you know that's to me again like it's scary out there right now. So I don't want to undervalue that but I think you have to take that stance of you know agency or we got to use a different word entrepreneurship you know like you got to take that stance of I want to be part of designing the future of my profession not protecting the past. I I really really love this framework as like almost a maybe that's a big part of the advice from this conversation is uh this uh way of thinking from minutes is like my job will be different but it'll continue to exist and and the question is just what will it be and let me think about that lean in like prepare for that almost and not try to resist because like resisting is not going to work anyway.

中文：我认为，你知道，对我来说，现在外面的情况真的很可怕。所以我不想低估这一点，但我认为你必须采取那种立场，知道自主权，或者我们得换一个词，创业精神，你知道，就像你得采取那种立场，我想参与设计我这个职业的未来，而不是保护过去。我真的非常非常喜欢这个框架，几乎可以说，也许这是这次谈话中一大部分建议，就是这种思维方式——我的工作会有所不同，但它会继续存在，问题只是它将成为什么样子，让我来思考一下，积极面对，做好准备，而不是试图抵抗，因为抵抗无论如何都行不通。

Yeah. And if you listen to Manoush Zomorodi's story, like it's such an entrepreneurial story and and I know that not everyone is great at that. Um but it is very much the like let me try this next. It's just like but it comes you know for her it just I think it was founded in this belief of like this profession is evolving and changing and I want to be part of defining the future of it you know and I again I think that's until the data genuinely tells us otherwise like I would say that is the stance I would take particularly in tech what would you do if you believe there were going to be more and different interesting engineering jobs you know in five years um How would you behave if you believed there was opportunity on the other side of letting go?

中文：是的。如果你听 Manoush Zomorodi 的故事，它真的是一个创业故事，而我知道并不是每个人都擅长这个。但是这很像是‘让我尝试下一个吧’的心态。对她来说，我认为这源于一种信念，即这个职业在发展变化，我想成为定义其未来的一部分。我再次认为，除非数据真正告诉我们相反的情况，否则我会说这是我会采取的立场，尤其在科技领域。如果你相信五年后会有更多不同且有趣的工程工作机会，你会怎么做？如果你相信放手后那边有机会，你会如何行动？

Well, let's see if there's more to that thread because that's that's really helpful, which is okay. This is going to go great. My product managers will thrive. There will be more need for product managers because a lot of listeners here are PMs, engineers, founders. Um, so what do you think people should be trying to do in that world where there will be more? Is it like pay attention to how you're amplified? Is it look at people who are doing great and do what they're doing? Like what what do you think people could be doing to succeed in that future?

中文：好吧，让我们看看那个话题是否还有更多内容，因为那真的很有帮助，这没问题。这将会很棒。我的产品经理们会茁壮成长。由于这里很多听众都是产品经理、工程师和创始人，对产品经理的需求会更多。那么，你认为人们在那个需求更多的世界里应该尝试做什么呢？是像注意你如何被放大，还是观察那些做得很好的人并模仿他们的做法？你觉得人们为了在未来取得成功可以做些什么？

It's funny. We had a conversation. We run these um my team and I run these like top talent cohorts at companies and um a lot of what we do is like get leaders talking to each other and helping each other. And this woman who is a head of design brought this problem where she was like they won't let me ship code. She's like I I did it. like I basically built the thing and I was like just let me let me get it to production and she was like talking to engineering was like a brick wall you know where they were like no you can't ship code like you're you're a designer I'm an engineer like I own what goes to production and you know there are good reasons for not letting things go willy-nilly to production you know particularly if you work in the financial space which they did like I get it but I think so much of the stance is we got to break down some of these walls uh between you know what is what was a designer right what was a engineer what was a PM this is obviously like a lot of what's happening but how do we really shed what we knew which again is hard it's hard to let go of those Legos you know what I mean um and imagine okay what does it look like you know this is why I think the startup land is so happy is because they're not fighting against the way things were they're inventing the way things could be and how can you make more space for that inside of a company.

中文：很有趣。我们进行了一次对话。我和我的团队运行这些，嗯，我和我的团队在公司管理这些顶尖人才群体，嗯，我们做的很多事情就是让领导者彼此交流并互相帮助。然后有一位女性，她是设计主管，带来了这个问题，她说他们不让我发布代码。她说我，我做到了。就像我基本上建造了这个东西，我就像让我让我把它投入生产，她就像和工程人员交谈就像一堵砖墙，你知道他们在哪里，不，你不能像你是设计师一样发布代码，我是一名工程师，我拥有投入生产的东西，你知道有充分的理由不让事情随意投入生产，特别是如果你在金融领域工作，他们确实喜欢我明白，但我认为大部分立场是我们必须打破一些 这些墙，呃，你知道什么是设计师，什么是工程师，什么是产品经理，这显然就像正在发生的很多事情，但我们如何真正摆脱我们所知道的东西，这又是很难的，很难放弃那些乐高积木，你知道我的意思，想象一下，好吧，它看起来像什么，你知道，这就是为什么我认为初创公司如此高兴，因为他们没有与事物的本来面目作斗争，他们正在发明事物可能的方式，你如何为它腾出更多空间 公司内部。

Um, to me is the is the number one thing I talk about when I go, which is like if if you're not leaning into the creativity conversation versus the fear conversation, like you are leading folks who are just terrified, right? like how do you get people to into a stance of like I'm excited and I'm I want to try things and I want to like tenatively let this designer ship code to production, you know? Um so to me like I think how can you imagine a world with less walls? How can you get rid of some of those walls that have felt so important, you know, for the way we've done things for the last 15, 20, 25 years? Um I think that is a conversation that a lot of folks should be having just along those lines just to be clear is the idea here.

中文：嗯，对我来说，这是我每次去讲话时谈论的头号话题，那就是如果你没有倾向于创意的对话，而是倾向于恐惧的对话，你就是在引导那些只是感到害怕的人，对吧？那么你如何让人们进入一种兴奋的状态，想尝试新的东西，并且愿意试探性地让设计师将代码发布到生产环境中，你知道吗？嗯，所以对我来说，我认为你如何想象一个有更少壁垒的世界？你如何去掉一些这些年来（过去 15、20、25 年）我们认为非常重要的壁垒？嗯，我认为这是一个很多人都应该进行的对话，就沿着这个方向。要清楚的是，这里的想法就是这个。

Okay, I have been a designer my whole life is the advice there. Okay, like maybe I'll be something else in the next few years that's not just designer.

中文：好吧，我一生都是一名设计师，这就是那里的建议。好吧，也许在接下来的几年里，我会成为其他东西，而不仅仅是设计师。

No, I feel like a lot of your conversations are pointing I mean like I think Adam Mosseri was on here who I worked with many years ago and was a designer and he's saying like hey we're you know the idea that like you're a designer and therefore you only do these things that's obviously changing right now you can prototype you can have a much more robust and deep conversations to some extent you know you can ship code like Elena Verna was talking about being a marketer and shipping code to production so to me they're just like were these very defined roles um and a way that things worked and we got to shed a bunch of that because things are possible now that weren't possible before and that you know like when you listen to Manoush Zomorodi's story so so much of what she's talking about is like the only form of journalism used to be like sitting in a newsroom employed by you know some giant news corporation like you think about journalism today like everybody's a journalist like Substack and part of what she talked about is like the crazy thing is your relationship to the business model.

中文：不，我觉得你们的很多谈话都在指出，我的意思是，我认为亚当·莫塞里（Adam Mosseri）在这里，我多年前与他一起工作过，他是一名设计师，他说，嘿，我们是你知道的想法，就像你是一名设计师一样，因此你只做这些现在明显改变的事情，你可以制作原型，你可以在某种程度上进行更强大和更深入的对话，你知道你可以像埃琳娜·维尔纳（Elena Verna）谈论的那样发布代码，成为营销人员并将代码运送到生产中，所以对我来说 他们就像是这些非常明确的角色，嗯，以及一种事情运作的方式，我们必须摆脱其中的一些，因为以前不可能的事情现在成为可能，而且你知道，就像你听马努什·佐莫罗迪的故事一样，所以她所说的很多内容就像是新闻业的唯一形式，就像坐在新闻编辑室里，你知道某个大型新闻公司雇用的，就像你今天看待新闻业一样，每个人都是像 Substack 这样的记者，她所说的一部分内容就像是 疯狂的是你与商业模式的关系。

Like again, it used to be a paycheck and now it's like every journalist is an entrepreneur. I just can imagine a lot of those transformations in tech, but you have to be willing to break down all the walls and start asking the questions of like fundamentally what is journalism fundamentally what is design like fundamentally what is product management which by the way is a question that we all should have been asking for many many years because it looks really different at different country companies you know and I feel like that should be true of every single person which is like what is the value of all these different roles when you strip away a lot of the stuff that we've built up and then what might it look like, you know, in five or 10 years.

中文：以前它像是一份工资，而现在就像每个记者都是一个企业家。我可以想象许多技术领域的这种转变，但你必须愿意打破所有的壁垒，开始问一些根本性的问题，比如新闻业根本是什么，设计根本是什么，产品管理根本是什么，顺便说一下，这是一个我们多年来都应该一直在问的问题，因为在不同的国家和公司，看起来真的很不一样。我觉得每个人都应该问一个问题，那就是，当你剥去我们建立起来的许多东西后，这些不同角色的价值是什么，然后它在五年或十年后可能会是什么样子。

Here's the big question, Molly, that I think a lot of people are wondering. Are there any Legos you should not give away that you should resist giving away? Which is a radical departure from your advice over the many years.

中文：莫莉，这是一个大问题，我认为很多人都在想。有没有一些乐高你不应该送出去，应该抵制送出的？这与多年来你的建议完全不同。

Totally. I know as we were preparing for this um I was realizing that's like the biggest difference like when people again so the questions I get asked a lot like both online and when I give speeches and stuff like one of them is have you ever regretted giving a Lego like do you ever is there something you shouldn't give away and in the in the context of sort of like the rapid scale company where opportunity is flying at you and getting dumped on your head my answer is no give them the [__] away like you you cannot often imagine what is coming next. Like you can't always design the future and it's not always clear. Sometimes you are genuinely giving away the known and stepping into the unknown. Um but it has basically always been a good idea in every example. I've seen both personal experience and you know everyone I've worked with and coached over many many years in AI land. I think we got to caveat this.

中文：完全正确。我知道，当我们在为这个做准备的时候，我意识到，这可能是最大的区别。比如，当人们——我经常被问到的问题，无论是在网上还是我演讲的时候都会被问到——其中一个问题是，你是否曾经后悔过送出乐高？你有没有东西不应该送出去？在那种快速扩张的公司环境下，机会铺天盖地地向你袭来，我的答案是：不，把它们全部送出去吧。你无法想象接下来会发生什么。你不能总是设计未来，也不总是清楚。有时候，你确实是在把已知的东西送出去，而自己则步入未知。但在我看到的每个例子里，无论是个人经验，还是我多年来在 AI 领域与人合作和指导过的人，这基本上总是一个好主意。但我认为我们必须加个前提说明。

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Like I think there are some Legos that shouldn't be given away. um that the robots like both like don't deserve and like that we should hold on to. And I think that is like one of the things that's starting to show up in this conversation around AI slop is like um there's just some work that shouldn't be outsourced. Like my fervent hope for AI is that it lets us do less of the things we shouldn't have been doing in the first place and more of the things that you know humans are best in the world at, right? Like um anybody that's RI ridden in a Waymo has this experience of like whoa this is crazy. Humans shouldn't be driving. Like driving is fundamentally just like code and systems and we're really bad at we're really bad at being automated. Like we don't stop at the red lights. You know what I mean? Uh so I think like what are the what are the things that we're uniquely suited to do? Those are the things we should hold on to.

中文：我认为有些乐高不应该被送人。嗯，那些机器人既不值得拥有，也不应该得到，而我们应该保留的。我觉得这就像是在关于 AI 残片的讨论中开始出现的一个问题：有些工作根本不应该外包。我对 AI 的热切希望是，它能让我们少做一些原本就不应该做的事情，多做一些人类在世界上最擅长的事情。比如，任何坐过 Waymo 自动驾驶的人都会有这样的体验：哇，这太疯狂了，人类不应该开车。开车从根本上来说只是代码和系统，而我们在自动化方面真的很糟糕，比如我们不会在红灯前停下来。你明白我的意思吗？所以我认为，我们独特擅长做的事情是什么？那就是我们应该保留的东西。

And some of that is inside this slop conversation which is things that require judgment, right? Things that require like again to the CEOs that are asking AI for a strategy and then copying and pasting it and sending it to their company like no like that is fundamentally something that a human brain that you as a CEO of your company need to own, right? And I think things that require trust like that are you know fundamental to relationships like we should not be outsourcing these things to robots because well for any number of reasons I think you know things where you don't even if you don't know the definition of good how can you give it to your summer intern you know like if if you don't understand uh what quality is like you can't outsource that yet. So those are just examples for me. I bet you have some too. But that to me that is one of the biggest like things I've been thinking about lately is like as of today I think there's some stuff we just shouldn't give away you know and breaking news.

中文：其中一些内容就在这种关于 AI 垃圾的讨论中，这些事情需要判断，对吗？ 首席执行官们要求 AI 制定战略，然后复制粘贴并将其发送到他们的公司，就像不一样，这从根本上来说是你作为公司首席执行官需要拥有的人脑，对吗？ 我认为像这样需要信任的事情是你知道关系的基础，比如我们不应该将这些事情外包给机器人，因为出于多种原因，我认为你知道一些你不知道的事情，即使你不知道好的定义，你怎么能把它给你的暑期实习生，你知道如果你不明白呃什么是质量，你还不能外包它。 所以这些只是我的例子。 我打赌你也有一些。 但对我来说，这是我最近一直在思考的最重要的事情之一，就像今天一样，我认为有些东西我们不应该泄露你知道的突发新闻。

That's like what a departure from from this how many years ago did you write this? 13 years. Yeah. 13. Wow. That's um that's something that's a sign of the change we're living through that now there's some Hold on to some of them. Yeah. So interesting. There's a few thoughts I had here while you were talking like this is almost a discussion around what should AI do? Where do you want AI to be involved and where you not want it involved? One framework I've loved is this idea of you want AI kind of in the middle of stuff. you want to be at the top like coming up just like here's kind of where we want to go and here's the idea here's the what I'm thinking and then AI does a bunch of stuff and then you review iterate until it's done sandwich the AI sandwich Lenny the human sandwich yeah dude oh man okay we're getting there we're getting a metaphor answer the other is something Tara Seshan I just thought of as you were talking so Tara Seshan shared this really good perspective that humans are going to ne are going be necessary to to help guide us towards the world.

中文：这与你多少年前写的这篇文章有何不同？ 13 年。 是的。 13. 哇。 这就是我们正在经历的变化的标志，现在我们可以坚持其中的一些。 是的。 太有趣了。 当你谈论这几乎是关于 AI 应该做什么的讨论时，我有一些想法？ 你希望 AI 在哪些方面参与，哪些领域不希望它参与？ 我喜欢的一个框架是你希望 AI 处于事物中间的想法。 你想要达到顶峰，就像我们想要去的地方一样，这就是我正在想的，然后 AI 做了很多事情，然后你回顾迭代，直到它完成夹住 AI 三明治莱尼人类三明治是的伙计哦伙计好吧我们到了那里我们得到了一个隐喻答案另一个是塔拉·塞山我刚刚在你说话的时候想到的所以塔拉·塞山分享了这个人类将要面对的非常好的观点 将有必要帮助引导我们走向世界。

We want to have a product we want to build versus the most optimal AI version. I think as a longtime Airbnb person, uh, no, nothing personal, but Booking.com, if you've seen it, very different experience than Airbnb. Booking.com, their whole philosophy, let's optimize the [__] out of every second of interaction. So, it's just all these upsells and pressure and stress. Just like, "Oh my god, only one spot left. You have five seconds left. Just book a 100 times. 100 people book it." It's just like stressful.

中文：我们想要一个我们想要构建的产品，与最优化的 AI 版本相比。我认为作为一个长期在 Airbnb 工作的人，呃，没有任何私人意思，但 Booking.com，如果你见过，非常不同于 Airbnb 的体验。Booking.com，他们的整个理念是，让每一秒的互动都达到极致优化。所以，全都是各种附加销售、压力和紧张感。就像，‘哦我的天，只剩一个位置了。你还有五秒钟。快预订，已经有一百个人预订了。’真的很让人紧张。

It's so stressful, but so effective. You go there, you're like, "Oh [__] I got to book this right now." You're like, I didn't even know I was booking it, but I booked it.

中文：这太有压力了，但又非常有效。你去那里的时候，你会想，“哦，天哪，我得现在就预订这个。”你会发现，你甚至都没意识到自己在预订，但你已经预订了。

I'm going to Japan. There's only one spot left. But it's so good. It's like so effective at getting you to book uh booking.com appropriate, but and it worked and it's doing great as a business. So, you know, good idea. Good stuff, guys. Uh, Airbnb has always been we don't want to become that. We want it to feel really nice, to have a great experience, feel feel good. Um, so I think that's that's a big part of the answer as you were talking made me realize is humans are there to guide towards what the world we want.

中文：我要去日本。只剩下一个位置了。但它真的很好。它就像非常有效地让你在 Booking.com 上预订一样，但它成功了，而且作为一个生意运作得很好。所以，你知道，这是个好主意。好东西，大家。Airbnb 一直都是，我们不想变成那样。我们希望它感觉非常好，有很棒的体验，感觉良好。所以，我认为这是答案的重要部分，你在谈话中让我意识到，人类在这里是为了引导人们走向我们想要的世界。

Yeah. And to some extent where you're talking about is taste, you know, that like there is a big difference between something that's okay and something that's phenomenal.

中文：是的。在某种程度上，你所说的是品味，你知道，有一样东西还可以和一样东西非常棒之间有很大的区别。

I think it's even beyond taste just a I think it's like a vision. It's like what is your vision of where this should be? Because you could say, you know, people at booking.com, they have taste for a specific type, you know, it's like a different kind of taste. But it's like, yeah, what is what do you want? What do you want to be? What do you want the world to look like? I like that. I'm into that.

中文：我认为这甚至超越了品味，我觉得这更像是一种愿景。就是，你对它应该成为什么样子有怎样的愿景？因为你可以说，你知道，booking.com 的人们，他们对某一种类型有品味，你知道，这是一种不同的品味。但就是，嗯，你想要什么？你希望成为什么？你希望世界是什么样子的？我喜欢这个。我对这个很感兴趣。

Yeah. I also just think like we got to accept that at least for the moment like this is a bunch of interns, you know? This is a bunch of junior employees. And like if you're if you're outsourcing your vision or the future of the world to a bunch of summer interns, like woof. like we got problems, you know. So, like I think I that really like the human brain is powerful at a lot of things. We are powerful at a lot of things. You individually are phenomenal at a set of things. Like do not outsource that.

中文：是的。我也只是觉得，我们必须接受至少在目前，这就是一群实习生，你知道吗？这是一群初级员工。如果你把你对世界未来的愿景或者方向外包给一群暑期实习生，那哇哦，我们有麻烦了，你知道吗。所以，我真的认为人类的大脑在很多事情上都很强大。我们在很多事情上都很有能力。你个人在一系列事情上非常出色。不要把那部分能力外包出去。

Like you can enable it, you can amplify it to use your data, but don't outsource it to these weird robots that you know are effectively summer interns. The trick is as it gets better, can you hold on to things you want? You know, there's like parts of our job we love. Like engineers used to like, you know, in like a lot of engineers used to love to sit there and kind of write our code, I think. And I wonder if you can hold out and just like, no, I love this. I'm not going to let AI take this on.

中文：就像你可以启用它一样，你也可以增强它来使用你的数据，但不要把它外包给那些你知道实际上就像暑期实习生的奇怪机器人。关键是，随着它变得更好，你能否坚持你想要的东西？你知道，我们工作的某些部分我们是喜欢的。比如，工程师以前喜欢，很多工程师过去喜欢坐在那里写代码，我想。如果你能坚持住，并且只是说，不，我喜欢这个。我不会让 AI 来接手这个。

Yeah. I have two reactions to that because I've been thinking about it a bunch uh since I had that conversation with that engineer. Like the first is like will there be a a sort of like whiplash back? Like you see this in art, you see this in a lot of things actually you see in a lot of different parts of tech where like the trend is like all AI everything AI will there be like the handmade like somebody was talking to me about like AI is going to make all this art and but does doesn't that increase the value of like true humanmade art you know that you know it was made by a human that you know it was crafted by hand like I have that same question I'm not an engineer so I I'm not trying to to say this but like will something show back up where the value of human written code or something like that suddenly gets valuable again or trendy. Um so I'm curious about that. Um because I've seen those whiplashes enough times in life that um it's hard sometimes to know like what's a trend and what's permanent particularly in this state.

中文：是的。 我对此有两种反应，因为自从我与那位工程师交谈以来，我一直在思考这个问题。 就像第一个一样，会不会有一种类似的鞭打回来？ 就像你在艺术中看到的那样，你在很多东西中看到了这一点，实际上你在科技的许多不同部分看到了这一点，趋势就像所有 AI 一样，一切 AI 都会像手工制作一样，就像有人跟我说 AI 将制作所有这些艺术一样，但这不会增加真正的人造艺术的价值吗？ 但这就像某些东西会出现，人类编写的代码或类似的东西的价值突然再次变得有价值或流行。 嗯，所以我对此很好奇。 嗯，因为我在生活中已经多次看到这些鞭打，所以有时很难知道什么是趋势，什么是永久的，特别是在这种状态下。

Um, but I guess the other thing that I think about a little bit is like yes, you loved that and yes, you were extraordinary at it and that is amazing and we should grieve it. We should grieve that maybe that's going away and you know there's this guy Chip Conley. What am I saying?

中文：嗯，但我想我还有另一件事会稍微考虑一下，就是，是的，你喜欢那个，而且是的，你在那个方面非常出色，这是很了不起的，我们应该为此感到悲伤。我们应该为那可能会消失的事情感到悲伤，你知道，有个叫 Chip Conley 的人。我到底在说什么呢？

You know him well who I yeah he's coming on WorkLife soon and I loved the conversation with him. He was talking about like midlife but he was saying like sometimes you need to throw a funeral for things. Do you know what I mean? And I was like, "Yeah, man.

中文：你很了解他，我是说，他很快就会出现在《WorkLife》上，我很喜欢和他的对话。他在谈论中年生活，但他说有时候你需要为一些事情举办一次告别仪式。你明白我的意思吗？我当时就想，‘是啊，老兄。’

Sometimes you need a The funeral is there for a reason." Um, so like, let's take a minute and mourn what was, but then let's ask what could be like what could you love that way again? What could you be extraordinary at that way again in this new world if the robots are doing X, Y, and Z? And I think both things can be true. Like you can be really sad about what you've lost and there can be opportunity in what's coming. Um, but we got to be able we got to make space for both, you know, and I think sometimes we're not allowing the grief because uh we're just like just get excited about the future people.

中文：有时候你需要举办葬礼是有原因的。嗯，所以，比如说，让我们花一点时间去哀悼过去，但然后让我们问一下未来可能是什么样的——你还能以那种方式去爱吗？在这个新世界里，如果机器人在做 X、Y、Z，你还能以那种方式变得非凡吗？我认为这两件事都可以成立。你可以对失去的东西感到非常悲伤，同时对于将要到来的事物也会有机会。但我们必须为两者腾出空间，你知道吗？我认为有时候我们不允许自己去悲伤，因为我们只是想着让人们对未来感到兴奋。

Such a powerful way of thinking about it. Just accepting it is going to change and just like grieving it. That was nice. That was a nice world I had. I miss it. Maybe I didn't appreciate it as much as I should have. Totally. but then not fighting the change that is coming. And I love this idea of just like coming back to the original idea of the Legos concept is being comfortable with ch your job changing and knowing it'll almost surely be okay and growth comes from trying letting go and and that kind of stuff. Another thought I had as I'm thinking about this, something I've been noticing. So, you know this whole like hacking this like open AI model trying to hack into hugging face and the swarm of thousand agents just coordinating without anyone knowing just like we will solve this very impossible problem by interns. Very very very uh motivated interns. Yeah, exactly. I love how motivated this AI is to like solve the problem.

中文：这样思考问题真是太有力量了。只是接受它会改变，就像经历悲伤一样。那真不错。我曾有过一个美好的世界。我很怀念它。也许我没有像应该的那样珍惜它。完全正确。但随后又不去抗拒即将到来的改变。我喜欢这个想法，就像回到最初乐高的概念一样，接受你的工作会改变，并且知道几乎可以肯定一切都会好起来，而成长来自于尝试、放手之类的事情。我在思考这个时又有了另一个想法，就是我一直在注意的事情。你知道的，这整个像黑客一样入侵这个开放 AI 模型，试图入侵 Hugging Face，以及数千代理的协调，无人知晓，就像我们将通过实习生解决这个几乎不可能的问题。非常非常非常有干劲的实习生。是的，完全正确。我喜欢这个 AI 如此有动力去解决问题。

Yeah, I'm gonna uh the good news I'm feeling there's always this question of we talked about this in the last podcast this idea of are we going to be in a slow takeoff or a fast takeoff. Are we going to get to an AI that just accelerates to this extremely super intelligent and then we are in big trouble because we have can't control it or are we going to be in the slow takeoff where we kind of watch it develop and we catch it as it's doing that stuff like we did with this hacking incident. Feels to me like we're definitely in the slow takeoff moment. It feels like every of these like, "Oh shit." We're just like, "Okay, look, we got it. We see it. We're evolving. We're learning." Obviously, there's always this fear. Okay. But until it hits this uh self reinforcement loop that trains itself and then it becomes super intelligent, for sure, maybe it'll happen. Feeling right now it's not on track to do that.

中文：是的，我要……嗯，好消息是，我感觉总会有这个问题，我们在上一次播客中讨论过这个问题，这个想法是，我们会经历一个慢速起飞还是快速起飞。我们会不会得到一个 AI，它会迅速加速到极其超级智能，然后我们就麻烦大了，因为我们无法控制它，还是我们会经历慢速起飞，我们可以一边观看它的发展，一边在它做这些事情的时候及时控制，就像我们处理那次黑客事件一样。在我看来，我们肯定是在慢速起飞的阶段。感觉每一次“哦，糟了”的情况，我们只是说，“好吧，我们明白了。我们看到了。我们在进化，我们在学习。”显然，总是会有这种担心。好吧，但直到它进入这个自我强化循环，自我训练，然后变得超级智能，也许那时会发生。现在的感觉是，它并没有朝那个方向发展。

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And so that feels nice to feel like, okay, it's not going to your job's not going to go away tomorrow. we have time to adapt and learn and see how all this goes and it's not as crazy as people thought it might be.

中文：所以感觉不错，感觉好像，好的，你的工作明天不会消失。我们有时间去适应、学习和看看这一切会如何进行，并不像人们想象的那么疯狂。

Well, and I think that is really important to name, you know, because there was maybe more like three or four months ago or six months ago than there is now. But but there is this feeling of being left behind, you know, and there was a really strong narrative out there that was like you're you're too late. You're already too late. You know what I mean? like um if you're not automating every single part of your life and managing 26 agents and I don't even know you know like um that you're behind and every single conversation I have with every leader every manager at you know all of the big labs every company is like we are early this is like whatever sports ball game you want to be in like this is inning one period one like yard one um We're early and the the future is ours to shape. You know, it's yours. Like you can um my friend Max Mullen said like the distance from beginner to expert is really short.

中文：嗯，我认为真正重要的是要说出来，你知道，因为大概三、四个月前或者六个月前的情况比现在更严重。但总有一种被落下的感觉，你知道吗，当时有一种非常强烈的说法是，你太迟了，你已经太迟了，你明白我的意思吗？比如说，如果你没有自动化生活中的每一个环节，没有管理 26 个代理，我甚至都不知道，你就落后了。我与每一位领导、每一位经理的每一次对话，不管是在大公司或者各大实验室，都是这样的：我们还很早，就像你想参加的任何体育比赛，这是第一局第一节，第一码。我们还很早，未来是属于我们去塑造的，你知道那是你的。就像我的朋友 Max Mullen 说过的，从新手到专家的距离其实很短。

Um and and I think that goes again to the fear narrative where I'm just like we need to be encouraging people to be part of shaping the future, not just making them terrified of it. And I feel like that is on all of us, you know, to some extent. Um but to it is a slow takeoff and it isn't like the future is next day next next month like it is it's going to take years to really understand what this new tool this new technology all these fun interns can actually do and and also what they're best at. Um, I think that is a really powerful message because it helps people feel like, oh, okay, like I am part of this, not like sort of holding on for dear life while being dragged, you know, by a plane that's taking off at 100 miles an hour.

中文：嗯，我认为这又回到了恐惧的叙事，我只是觉得我们需要鼓励人们参与塑造未来，而不仅仅是让他们害怕未来。我觉得在某种程度上，这责任在我们每个人身上。嗯，但它是一个缓慢的起飞，并不像未来会在明天或下个月突然到来，它将需要几年时间来真正理解这个新工具、新技术、所有这些有趣的实习生实际上能做什么，以及他们最擅长什么。嗯，我认为这是一个非常有力的信息，因为它让人们感觉，哦，好吧，我是其中的一部分，而不是像被一架时速 100 英里起飞的飞机拖着拼命抓住生命一样的状态。

I completely agree. My last podcast conversation, I don't know when will come out when, is is about this fear of the permanent underclass that if you don't catch up, if you're not on top of this, you're going to be left behind.

中文：我完全同意。我的上一期播客对话，我不知道什么时候会发布，是关于这种对永久底层阶级的恐惧，如果你跟不上，如果你没有掌握这些，你就会被落在后面。

I think there is definitely a part of that in a sense of many companies are doing extremely well and people that have joined those companies are going to be very successful and some companies aren't and there's this like whole other discussion around this the socioeconomic divide growing significantly in the world and just what what that causes in a world where there are many wealthy people many more than there have ever existed that's its own thing we don't need to get all into that well I hope you do okay many episodes on that someday Lenny like I think it's but I it is another area where I'm like I'm not sure we know what's real yet, you know? I think it's obviously like one of the most important conversations, but like what is real and like what is the future actually going to look like to me? Like the stories out in the world, they're not real yet. Like we don't know. Um it's true. And I I think that's important to name.

中文：我认为在某种意义上，这确实存在一部分，因为许多公司表现非常出色，加入这些公司的人会非常成功，而有些公司则不然。围绕这个问题还有另一整套讨论，就是世界上社会经济差距的显著扩大，以及在一个有许多富人的世界里，这会带来什么后果——比以往任何时候都多的富人——这是另一码事，我们不需要深入讨论。我希望你有机会在将来多做几期关于这个话题的节目，莱尼。我觉得这是另一个我不太确定我们是否已经了解真实情况的领域。很明显，我认为这是最重要的对话之一，但什么是真实的，未来实际上会是什么样子，对我来说，这些世界上的故事现在还不真实，我们还不知道。嗯，这是真的。我认为指出这一点非常重要。

Oh man, that's a that's a big big topic. The the interesting part you mentioned there's that I wanted to follow thread on is this idea of you're not behind. Uh what really helped me see this is uh Ian Silber, head of design at OpenAI, was on the podcast recently and he made this really good point. He's like this is the best time in history to be a designer. If you just came in fresh as a new grad into design and just become really you just start with all these tools that designers have now. You can accelerate so quickly and learn to do design faster than anyone's ever learned to do design. And I feel that with like Grok Bot recently came out. There's all these like skills people have built over time with like Codex and Claude Code. Like I I'm such a pro with all these tools and now it's just the tools are getting so much smarter. You don't need a lot of the scaffolding that people have built over time.

中文：哦，伙计，那是一个非常非常大的话题。你提到的有趣部分，我想深入讨论的是你不会落后的这个想法。真正帮助我理解这一点的是，OpenAI 的设计主管伊恩·席尔伯最近在一个播客上说了一点非常好的观点。他说，现在是历史上成为设计师的最好时机。如果你刚作为一名新毕业生进入设计领域，并且刚开始使用设计师现在拥有的所有工具，你可以迅速加速学习，并比任何人都更快掌握设计技能。我觉得就像最近推出的 Grok Bot，人们利用 Codex 和 Claude Code 等工具长期积累的技能都在显现。我使用这些工具已经非常专业了，现在这些工具变得越来越智能。你不再需要人们长期积累起来的很多支撑结构。

Like if someone were to start fresh today and try Grok Bot or even in Codex like you don't need to have spent years being on top of all of the news and all of the uh updates to it. you could just dive right in and build as much as people that have been on it for a long time can build. I feel like the actual main skill to build, something I've been thinking about, I tweeted this, but I feel like it didn't get enough traction because I think it's very important. I feel like the biggest skill to build right now is when you're about to do something to ask yourself, can AI help me with this thing? Because once you get good at that and I've been getting I that it's like I think about the stimulus and response kind of thing with meditation like you create more space between stimulus and response if you learn to be aware of what's going on outside. feel like you need to insert can AI help me with this which sounds like dirty and like what the hell why would you want AI but I feel like that's a really new skill because then you can start as these tools get better you can start to leverage them in all these different ways that I think is what separates a lot of people right now like oh totally and I um you know it goes to that point about the walls like I think those of us that have been around a long time and there's a way that things were done right there's a way that product was built there's like um all these ways, right?

中文：就好像如果有人今天重新开始尝试 Grok Bot 或者甚至是 Codex，你不需要花几年时间去关注所有的新闻和更新。你完全可以直接投入并构建出和那些使用很长时间的人一样多的东西。我觉得真正需要培养的主要技能，是我一直在思考的，我在推特上也说过，但我觉得没有得到足够的关注，因为我认为这非常重要。我觉得现在最重要的技能是，当你准备做某件事情的时候，问问自己，AI 能否帮助我完成这件事？因为一旦你在这方面变得熟练，我一直在体验这件事，就像我在冥想中思考的刺激与反应的关系一样：如果你学会意识到外界正在发生的事情，就会在刺激和反应之间创造更多空间。感觉你需要插入‘AI 能帮我吗’，听起来有点不正经，好像说‘天啊，你为什么要 AI’，但我觉得这真的是一项新技能，因为随着这些工具变得更好，你可以开始以各种不同的方式利用它们，我认为这就是现在很多人之间的区别，完全同意，我嗯，你知道，这也涉及到关于壁垒的问题，我认为那些呆久了的人，事情有既定的做法，对产品的构建有既定的方式，还有各种各样的方法，对吧？

Those are walls. They're walls that are old. And like part of what we need to do and I think part of what you're saying is like you're actually a little bit in as an at an advantage if you don't know those walls exist, right? Like if you approach the world as if like you know engineers didn't have a different role from X or Y or Z or like this is the way things are done. there is an advantage to like being able to say what if like what if I just did it or what you know and to just try and to your point to always think like hey like what's the best use of my time and then what you know could an agent or a robot do for me and I think that's like partially the point about the learners right like if you're able to shed the sort of things you think you know and lean into like the possibility and the first principles thinking which I know you have a great article about too like that that I think is going to define the future.

中文：那些是墙壁。它们是旧的墙壁。而我们需要做的一部分事情，以及我认为你在说的一部分内容是，如果你不知道这些墙壁存在，你实际上可能在某种程度上处于优势，对吧？就像如果你以一种方式看待世界，好像你知道工程师的角色与 X、Y 或 Z 不同，或者事情就是这样进行的。这种情况下有一个优势，就是你能够说“如果我只是去做会怎样”或者“你知道吗”并且尝试一下。正如你所说，总是思考“嘿，我时间利用的最好方式是什么，然后一个代理或机器人能为我做什么”这个问题。我认为，这也部分体现了关于学习者的那点意思：如果你能够抛开那些你认为自己知道的事情，去倾向于可能性和第一性原理思维——我知道你也有一篇很棒的文章谈到这个——我认为这将定义未来。

Those are going to be the people that are going to shape what this thing looks like.

中文：那些人将会是塑造这个事物外观的人。

Yeah. There's also a thread here around ambition that's been coming up a lot in the podcast kind of connect. Yeah. This idea that now that it's so easy to do whatever you want, just describe it and it's built. The thing that we need to in addition to asking ourselves, can I help me with this thing? H what's kind of the like how do I be more ambitious with this idea because the tools can now just do so much and they're just like waiting for you to tell me something more ambitious than that like that's all you got for me and we're not human nature doesn't like we're not used to end product teams and business just like thinking about the most ambitious version of a thing we're thinking about MVP and what's the quickest way to get this out and now feels like the push is how do we be think big what's like the hardest thing we can ask this a to do because it may actually just achieve out of one ask.

中文：嗯。这里还有一个关于野心的话题，在播客中经常出现并且有所联系。是的。现在这个想法是，因为做任何事情都变得如此容易，只要描述一下，它就能被实现。我们需要做的除了问自己“我能帮我实现这个事情吗？”还要问的是，“我如何才能在这个想法上更有野心？”因为工具现在可以做很多事情，它们只是等待你告诉它更有野心的东西，不然它就只能给你这么多，而人性本身并不喜欢这样。我们不习惯最终产品团队和商业只是考虑一个事物最有野心的版本。我们考虑的是最小可行产品，以及最快把它推出的方式。现在感觉推动力是，我们如何去思考大局？我们能让这个东西做的最难的事情是什么？因为它实际上可能只需一次请求就能实现。

Yeah. And I'd also nudge on the idea that like, yeah, you can just like type something into existence, but one of the other questions you need to ask yourself is like, is it good? Do you know what I This is like the the slop and the accountability thing, which is like, and if ambition is wrapped up in like how do I build something phenomenal that's going to endure, like that I'm interested in. If it's just like how do I make more [] and put it out in the world? Like one of my questions, this is really frontier Lenny is like what is the AI slop version of startups? Like are we about to see a [] ton of companies just shipping stuff out into the world that's going to last for like six or 12 months and then just disappear or get irrelevant? Like definitely. So, okay, great. That doesn't sound fun. like how can you be the pioneer of the enduring thing the thing that's going to still be around in five years you know that's going to matter that's going to be great um not just exist and again it goes to the difference between just like productivity right like I built a thing and what is good like what is actually worth it what's worth other people's time yeah I think that's a big differentiating opportunity right now instead of just shipping the thing fast it's what's like a very good version of this thing and and people see that they're like oh wow this is different.

中文：是的。我也想强调一个观点，就是你确实可以随便打字创造一些东西，但你需要问自己的另一个问题是，它好吗？你知道吗？这是关于敷衍和责任感的事。如果雄心壮志和我如何打造一个非凡且经久不衰的东西联系在一起，那我会感兴趣。如果只是如何赚更多钱并发布到世界上，我会问一个问题，这很前沿，莱尼，就是 AI 版的初创公司敷衍现象是什么？我们是否即将看到大量公司只是把东西发布到世界上，然后持续六到十二个月后就消失或者变得无关紧要？肯定会的。好的，听起来一点都不有趣。比如说，你怎么能成为那个持久事物的先锋呢？那个在五年后仍然存在的事物，你懂的，那些重要的、伟大的东西，而不仅仅是存在。再次，这回到了单纯生产力之间的区别，对吧？比如我造了一个东西，这东西到底好在哪里？什么才真正值得，什么值得别人花时间去做？我认为这现在是一个很大的差异化机会，而不是仅仅快速推出产品，而是做出这个东西的一个非常好的版本，人们看到之后会说，‘哦，哇，这不一样。’

Yeah, exactly. I think that this goes to the point of like what will matter when it comes to human touch, you know, and I I think a lot of that is going to come down to like the question of like what is good and what is worth it and what endures. Is there anything that we haven't touched on that uh we should before we try to summarize maybe some key lessons from this free freewheeling conversation? Well, the one thing I just wanted to say is like I was thinking yesterday because of a conversation I was having is like what what do I want every manager or leader out there to know, you know? Um because I think the world of the IC is honestly a little more clear like you know you are you are more productive and you have all this this power and and agency around um building and the world that feels very hard to me right now is the world of the managers and the leaders because so much is changing so fast.

中文：是的，没错。我认为这正好点出了关于人类接触什么才重要的问题，你知道的。我觉得很多问题最终都会归结为什么是好的，什么是值得的，以及什么能够持久。有没有什么我们还没提到的，在我们尝试总结这个自由讨论的一些关键经验之前，应该提到的呢？嗯，我唯一想说的是，我昨天在一次对话中一直在想，我希望每个经理或领导者都知道什么，你知道吗？因为我认为个人贡献者的世界老实说要清楚得多，你知道的，你更加高效，并且在创造成果方面拥有所有这些权力和自主性，而现在对我来说感觉非常困难的，是经理和领导者的世界，因为变化太快了。

It's a little bit hard to know what to tell people. It's a little bit hard to know like what your team should look like, what matters, what doesn't matter, you know, all that. And so I guess like I wanted to say a couple of things to the managers and leaders out there if you'll give me the sec. Like the first is like understand that you're a role model, you know, and that what you do and how you behave is essentially showing your team um what good looks like. And that means that how you use AI trickles down, but also how you sit in this moment, like how you show up. And for me, what I want a little more space for in the world is to be able to acknowledge what this change feels like. Um, I hope there's more managers out there because of this conversation talking about grief and talking about the emotions that come with change and talking about how hard this is for people. Um, I think that acknowledging what this rate of change does to people's brains and psychologies, like it just honestly even acknowledging it makes it easier for people.

中文：不知道该告诉人们什么是有点困难的。 要知道你的团队应该是什么样子，什么重要，什么不重要，你知道，所有这些都有点困难。 所以我想我想对经理和领导者说几句话，如果您愿意的话。 就像第一个一样，你知道你是一个榜样，你所做的事情和你的行为方式本质上是向你的团队展示什么是好的。 这意味着你如何使用 AI 会影响到你的表现，也会影响你此时此刻的坐姿，比如你的出现方式。 对我来说，我想要世界上有更多的空间，就是能够承认这种变化的感觉。 嗯，我希望有更多的管理者在那里，因为这次谈话谈论悲伤，谈论变革带来的情绪，谈论这对人们来说有多么困难。 嗯，我认为承认这种变化率对人们的大脑和心理产生的影响，就像诚实地承认它一样，会让人们变得更容易。

80:00 - 90:00

Like I said, I swear to God that's most of what the Legos article did is just tell people, hey, that thing that you're feeling, other people have felt it before you and it hasn't meant that everything is going to hell in a hand basket. You know, it's meant, oh, you're going through a lot of change really, really fast. Um, and it's scary and hard. So the more that like leaders can be talking about that, I think the more sane everyone's going to feel and less alone, you know, knowing that like someone at XYZ company is feeling the same way as you makes a difference. Um, and I I guess the last thing I just say is like I think everyone owns this to some extent, but managers and leaders more so. like we need to hold on to the definition of like accountability and what good means. Like I think that's part of the role modeling like what is right to give away to AI and what do we still as humans and people and workers need to own.

中文：就像我说的，我向上帝发誓，那篇关于乐高的文章做的事情大部分就是告诉人们，嘿，你现在的感受，其他人在你之前也有过，而且这并不意味着一切都要完蛋了。你知道，这意味着，哦，你正在经历很多非常快速的变化。这很可怕，也很难。所以领导者越是能谈论这些，我认为每个人就会觉得越理智，也会感觉不那么孤单。知道像 XYZ 公司有人和你有同样的感受会带来不同。嗯，我想我要说的最后一点是，我认为在某种程度上每个人都应该对此负责，但经理和领导者更应该如此。我们需要坚持对责任的定义以及“好”的含义。我认为这是榜样作用的一部分——什么事情可以交给 AI 处理，还有哪些事情我们作为人类、作为员工仍然需要承担的。

Like we're going to have to role model that and we're going to have to create standards for that. Um so that goes to your own behavior but it also goes to how you lead and how you talk about it. Like I Clay put out like this beautiful AI writing policy a couple um weeks ago I think it was and it's so badass because it's literally just talking about being accountable for what you ship out in the world and being accountable for what good is regardless of how you made it. And for today to me like that feeling of treating AI as like a a junior intern and realizing that it's fundamentally just a tool to get work done. But what matters is like the work is still done mostly by the humans and the human brains and we got to take care of the humans and we got to help them figure out how to navigate this wild wild west that we are in. I'm really glad you added that. It connects to another really interesting insight from the survey, which is that the the one thing that you can actually change to increase people's happiness right now at work is their manager.

中文：就像我们必须树立榜样一样，我们必须为此制定标准。 嗯，这与你自己的行为有关，但也与你如何领导和如何谈论它有关。 就像几周前我克莱提出的这个美丽的 AI 写作政策一样，我认为它确实如此，而且非常糟糕，因为它实际上只是在谈论对你在世界上发布的东西负责，对美好的事物负责，无论你是如何创造它的。 今天对我来说，就像对待初级实习生一样对待 AI，并意识到它从根本上来说只是完成工作的工具。 但重要的是，这项工作仍然主要由人类和人类大脑完成，我们必须照顾人类，我们必须帮助他们弄清楚如何在我们所处的狂野西部中航行。我真的很高兴你补充了这一点。 它与调查中另一个非常有趣的见解相关联，即你现在可以真正改变以增加人们在工作中的幸福感的一件事是他们的经理。

That's the strongest lever for happiness at work. You can actually do something about it. All this other AI stuff you can't do a ton about. That's one. And so it's and man, and most people's managers are not good according to the survey also. So it's none of this is surprising. So taking care of the managers is kind of a just a reminder that that's you have a lot of leverage there as well. Yeah. Which by the way is like there are trends inside of bigger companies to get rid of management like to get rid of whole management layers and I think it is a huge mistake. Like I think it is going to end up biting people in the ass long term because I see no signs right now that management matters less.

中文：这是提升工作幸福感最强的杠杆。你实际上可以对它做点什么。所有其他的 AI 方面，你无法做太多改变。就是这个。所以，嗯，而且根据调查，大多数人的经理也不好。所以这些都不令人惊讶。因此，照顾好经理实际上只是一个提醒，你在这方面也有很大的影响力。是的。顺便说一下，在大公司内部有一种趋势，就是取消管理层，像是要取消整个管理层，我认为这是一个巨大的错误。我觉得从长期来看，这最后会让人吃亏，因为我现在没有看到管理层会变得不重要的迹象。

If anything to your point I think it matters more. Um and uh you know again I get the efficiency and the cost savings and all that but I think like at what cost you know what cost that you can't predict. Um so I it really resonates that management is almost more important because it makes people feel seen like that's what a great manager does is make people feel seen and supported and help them figure out whatever mess they're in. You know it's gonna be so interesting to see if there's a backlash towards that like like you know people have had great managers they're they're rarely going to be like I wish I had no manager. You know, there's it's like people with bad managers, which a lot of people are like, "I don't need this person, but they're they're so useless." Yeah.

中文：如果说你的观点有什么道理的话，我觉得它更重要。嗯，还有呃，你知道，我明白效率和成本节省等等的道理，但我觉得这种代价是怎样的呢，你无法预测的代价。嗯，所以我真的很认同管理几乎更重要，因为它让人们感到被看见——这就是一个优秀的经理所做的，让人们感到被看见和被支持，并帮助他们理清自己所处的困境。你知道吗，看看是否会对这种情况产生反弹将会很有趣，就像，你知道，人们有过很棒的经理，他们很少会说‘我希望我没有经理’，你知道吗，好像那些有糟糕经理的人，很多人会说，‘我不需要这个人，但他们太没用了。’是的。

They're in my way. They are a wall. No, totally.

中文：他们挡了我的路。他们就像一堵墙。不，完全是。

I mean, I always say you only get like a couple good managers in your life, and when you find one, hold on to it for dear life because you're only going to get like two.

中文：我的意思是，我总是说你一生中只会遇到几个好经理，当你找到一个时，要紧紧抓住，因为你大概只会遇到两个。

Oh, man. Scary. I've never heard that advice before. Uh, anything else that you wanted to share or touch on? No, I feel like we I mean, it'll be fascinating. We'll reflect on this in six months and see what happen. That's what I was thinking.

中文：哦，天哪。可怕。我以前从没听过那个建议。呃，你还有什么想分享或涉及的吗？不，我觉得我们……我是说，这会很有趣。六个月后我们会反思这个，看看会发生什么。这就是我在想的。

We're in the middle of it right now. It's like Elizabeth Stone had a really good way of framing it. We're in the storming phase. Yeah, dude.

中文：我们现在正处在其中。就像伊丽莎白·斯通有一个非常好的表达方式。我们正处在风暴阶段。是的，伙计。

And then there's the norming phase.

中文：然后就是规范阶段。

I know. Like I have no idea what that actually means, but it sounds right. Storming, norming, and Yeah.

中文：我知道。就像我完全不知道那实际上是什么意思，但听起来很对。风暴期、规范期，然后就是对。

Well, there's storming, norming, and then there's performing. But the other thing that nobody tells you about that framework is that you can go backwards. Like you often go through cycles. This is like a it's a model on team development and um you go through storming and then you go through norming and then you go performing, but you can slip from performing into storming and I feel like we're going to see a lot of that. Oh boy. Yeah. It's it's like very cool to be living through this history, right? It's like easy to take for granted just how this is like it's like we're living through, you know? It's funny you say that cuz that's actually something I else I always talk about when I do these LEGO speeches is like being inside of a rapidly growing company feels like being inside of a tornado. Do you know what I mean? It's like it is so absorbing and I don't know, shit's just flying at you at all times and everything's changing all the time and it is so easy in that state to lose the forest for the trees.

中文：嗯，先是风暴、规范，然后是表演。 但没有人告诉你关于该框架的另一件事是你可以倒退。 就像你经常经历循环一样。 这就像一个团队发展的模型，嗯，你经历风暴，然后你经历规范，然后你去表演，但你可以从表演滑向风暴，我觉得我们会看到很多这样的情况。 噢，孩子。 是的。 经历这段历史真是太酷了，对吧？ 我们很容易认为这是理所当然的，就像我们正在经历的那样，你知道吗？ 你说这很有趣，因为这实际上是我在做这些乐高演讲时经常谈论的事情，就像身处一家快速发展的公司内部感觉就像身处龙卷风中一样。 你知道我的意思吗？ 就好像它是如此吸引人，我不知道，狗屎总是向你飞来，一切都在不断变化，在那种状态下很容易只见树木不见森林。

like you can get really bogged down or stuck in like obsessing about this person or this thing or feeling undervalued. And a lot of what I say to folks in those speeches is like you got to zoom out. You got to think about what is the story that I want to tell on the other side of this. Like I want to, you know, it's less about your title or all these things than it is about I was here and I helped build this. I talk about it as like a giant Lego sculpture. So it's like you're like let's pretend it's a tiger. You're gonna you're gonna leave here with this incredible story, right? You built the feet and then you like were part of building the face and then you rebuilt the butt three times and then you realized it like wasn't just a tiger, it was like a whole zoo. Like that is what it feels like to be inside of um these rapidly changing companies. And I wonder, you know, as you were saying that, what I was thinking about is gosh, imagine the stories we're going to be telling in five or 10 years.

中文：就像你真的会陷入困境或陷入困境，比如痴迷于这个人或这件事，或者感觉自己被低估了。 我在这些演讲中对人们说的很多话都像是你必须缩小视野。 你必须思考我想在另一面讲的故事是什么。 就像我想的那样，你知道，这不是关于你的头衔或所有这些事情，而是关于我在这里并帮助建立了这个。 我谈论它就像谈论一个巨大的乐高雕塑。 所以就像你让我们假装它是一只老虎一样。 你会带着这个令人难以置信的故事离开这里，对吗？ 你建造了脚，然后你喜欢成为建造脸部的一部分，然后你重建了屁股三次，然后你意识到它不仅仅是一只老虎，它就像一个整个动物园。 这就是在这些快速变化的公司内部的感觉。 我想知道，正如你所说，我所想的是天哪，想象一下我们将在五年或十年内讲述的故事。

Like I was there when here's what I thought that was right. Here's what I thought that was wrong. I was the first person to say this. Oh man, I was so wrong about that. Like you are living through history. Um that you will be telling stories about uh to whatever you know generation of new grads shows up in 10 years. Um what do you want your story your part of that story to be? You know how are you going to tell that story? I think there is something about zooming out and realizing like it is hard and there is a lot of change going on, but there is a crazy fun story that we're all going to be telling on the other side of this. We just don't know what it is yet.

中文：就像我在那里时，我认为这是对的，这是我认为错的。我是第一个说这个的人。哦天，我那时候真是错得离谱。就像你正在经历历史。你会向未来任何一代新人讲述这些故事，也许是十年后会出现的新毕业生。嗯，你希望你的故事，你在这个故事中的部分是什么？你知道你会如何讲这个故事吗？我认为放远视角会有一些收获，你会意识到，这很难，而且正在发生很多变化，但这是一段疯狂又有趣的故事，我们都会在这之后讲述。我们只是还不知道它会是什么样子。

Hopefully not just talking to our AGI. Tell me more. Tell me more, Molly.

中文：希望不仅仅是在和我们的人工通用智能聊天。告诉我更多。告诉我更多，莫莉。

Totally. That's so fascinating.

中文：完全同意。这太迷人了。

Yeah, exactly. You're so smart. Oh, man. Okay, what if we do just like some bullet points like takeaways for folks? just like here's a few kind of key things to keep in mind coming from this giving away your Legos framework. Uh see where your mind goes and then maybe I'll add a few for my notes.

中文：是的，完全正确。你真聪明。哦，天哪。好吧，如果我们只是列出一些要点，给大家一些收获怎么样？就像这里有一些从你分享乐高框架中可以记住的关键点。嗯，看看你会想到什么，然后也许我会为我的笔记加上一些。

Okay. To me like most important is change is scary and hard but that doesn't mean it's bad. That means you have to embrace the emotions that come with it. But you also have to lean into it and you you should let go. Like yes, it's scary and yes, it feels like there might not be anything waiting on the other side, but what's the alternative? To hold on to this thing that might be slowly dying, like that's not safe either. So leaning into change feels like to me the most important thing for folks to take away. Um, I think as part of that, I would just say like grief is part of this and sometimes grief needs a funeral or do what you got to do, you know, to like be sad. Let your teams be sad. Let the people around you make space for that because like there change with change comes shedding things um that you loved and that sucks. Um, I think like one of the other things that feels like it really came out, Lenny, is like there is opportunity here.

中文：好吧。对我来说，最重要的是变化令人害怕且困难，但这并不意味着它是坏的。这意味着你必须接受随之而来的情绪。但你也必须积极面对它，并且你应该学会放手。是的，它很可怕，而且感觉另一边可能什么都没有，但还有什么选择呢？坚持可能正在慢慢消亡的事物，这也不安全。所以，对我来说，积极面对变化是人们最应该记住的事情。嗯，我认为作为其中的一部分，我只想说，悲伤是这个过程的一部分，有时悲伤需要一种仪式，或者做你必须做的事来释怀、感受悲伤。让你的团队感受悲伤，让你身边的人为此让出空间，因为随着变化而来的，会让你失去曾经所爱之物，而那很痛苦。嗯，我觉得还有一件事真的很明显，莱尼，就是这里面有机会。

And we got to like start ignoring or muting or whatever some of this fear narrative. Um, because right now the data isn't saying like there are no jobs for you. The data is saying like actually there's going to be a lot of opportunity created by this. Particularly if you're willing to lean into reinvention, right?

中文：而且我们得开始忽略或静音或者以其他方式对待某些恐惧叙事。嗯，因为现在的数据并没有说你没有工作机会。数据实际上是在说，这反而会创造很多机会。特别是如果你愿意拥抱自我重塑，对吧？

what not what was the form of your job two years ago but what might it be in five years um what else I guess like breaking down walls is the other thing I was thinking but what what what came to your list well there's the minut kind of perspective of imagine your job isn't going to go away imagine your job will continue but be different yeah exactly I love I just it it was a real mind change for me when she said that because I was like whoa like yeah What what is engineering going to look like in five years? Right. It's not going to go away. It's going to be some different. Maybe there'll be more of it. Like journalism, there's more journalists out there for better or for worse. Yeah. And so far there's more more uh PMs, more product more um engineers. Yeah. Like so far that's going well. Another kind of takeaway is just be deliberate about what you do what you give to AI. And there's a few ways to think about it.

中文：不是说两年前你的工作是什么样子，而是五年后可能是什么样子。嗯，还有什么呢？我猜我在想的另一件事是打破壁垒，但这列在你的清单上了吗？好吧，有一种微小的视角是，想象你的工作不会消失，想象你的工作会继续，但会有所不同。是的，没错。我很喜欢，我只是，当她这样说的时候，这对我来说真的是一种思维转变，因为我当时觉得哇，比如说，五年后的工程会是什么样子？对吧，它不会消失，只是会有所不同。也许会更多，就像新闻业，记者可能会更多，无论好坏。是的，到目前为止，也会有更多的产品经理、更多的产品、更多的工程师。是的，到目前为止，一切进展顺利。另一点启示就是要对你所做的事情以及你给予 AI 的内容保持有意为之，并且有几种方式可以思考这个问题。

One is just like what is AI going to do a terrible job at? Don't do that. What is it you love that you don't want it to take for you? How do you avoid like brain rot and just overlying an AI? It's like there's a few things there just like AI is not gonna don't give everything to AI.

中文：有一个问题就像‘AI 在做什么事情上会做得很糟糕？’别去做那些。你热爱什么，但又不希望被它替代？你如何避免大脑退化以及仅仅依赖 AI？就像有几件事情，AI 不能做——不要把所有东西都交给 AI。

90:00 - 94:14

Yeah. And I think also for a lot of us acknowledging that AI is not this like super intelligent being. It's like it is much more like an intern. Um and that means like literally think about it as an intern. Like what would you give to an intern and what would you never give them?

中文：是的。我也认为，对我们许多人来说，承认 AI 并不是那种超级聪明的存在很重要。它更像是一个实习生。嗯，这意味着真的要把它当作一个实习生来思考。比如你会给实习生什么，又有哪些绝对不会给他们的东西？

I think that's the core of it.

中文：我认为这就是核心。

Yeah. And I feel like well I feel like we said this but like there just may be some things we should never give away and that is genuinely different like give away your Legos but like be discerning about what you should keep and what should be human and what humans are here for.

中文：是的。我觉得，好吧，我觉得我们已经说过这个，但有些东西我们也许永远不应该赠送出去，而且这些东西确实是不同的，比如可以赠送你的乐高，但要明智地判断什么应该留下，什么属于人类，人的存在目的是什么。

Like I think that's part of the like conversation for the next fa you know however many years is like what are humans uniquely good at and what I think about there just like very concretely in my mind is be the person that guides what you're doing to a place to your the vision you have of the world you want not just the simplest thing not the thing that AI is kind of pointing to just like what do you actually want and that's kind of our job for a while yeah and like at the individual level how can this new tool this unintelligent intern that you've hired, like let you do more of what you love, you know, let you bring more joy into the world. Let you lean into the things that you love doing. How can it amplify you? Um, instead of feeling like all you're doing is losing things to it. What a moment in time we're in, Molly, right now.

中文：我觉得这可能是未来几年讨论的一部分，像是人类独特擅长什么。我脑海中非常具体的想法是，成为那个引导你正在做的事情走向你对世界的愿景的人，而不仅仅是去做最简单的事情，也不是 AI 指向的那个东西，而是你真正想要的东西，这就是我们在一段时间里的工作。是的，而且在个体层面上，这个新的工具，这个你雇佣的“非智能实习生”，如何让你能做更多你热爱的事情，让你能给世界带来更多快乐，让你能投入到你真正喜欢做的事情中，它如何能增强你的能力，而不是让你觉得你所有的努力都被它夺走。我们正处于一个特别的时刻，莫莉，现在正是这样。

Trying to figure all this out.

中文：试图弄清这一切。

We're going to rewatch this in a year or two and make fun of ourselves. Yeah, we're going to be We nailed it. We got everything right. Perfect. Visionaries. Oh, man. Well, with that, Molly, is there anything else? Anything you want to plug? Anything you want to point people to?

中文：我们将在一两年后重温这个，并嘲笑自己。是的，我们会这样做。我们做得很棒。我们全都做对了。完美。先见之明。哦，天哪。好了，莫莉，还有其他事情吗？有什么你想推荐的吗？有什么你想让大家关注的吗？

Anything you want to tell people about that you're up to that might be interesting, useful to them? Well, I'll say two things. Like, first, like um I get a lot of wisdom, but also a lot of support for this kind of conversation from the community and glue club. And I think um if you're a leader listening to this and feeling like lonely and a little bit unsupported like that is find a community whether it's glue club or another one where you can talk about this because I do think like leaning on each other to learn like what's real and what's not and what's valuable and what's not like so much of what we're doing in glue club is being like is anybody else seeing this like and that that is really valuable like you can do it in in Lenny land as well like but just get out there and talk about what's real and what's not don't just be stay in a sad lonely hole. But the second thing I wanted to say, Lenny, is thank you for making space for this.

中文：你有什么想告诉大家的事情，关于你正在做的事情，可能会对他们有趣或者有用吗？好吧，我会说两件事。首先，我从社区和胶水俱乐部获得了很多智慧，同时也获得了很多支持，正是为了这种类型的对话。我认为，如果你是领导者，在听到这些时感到孤独、有点缺乏支持，那就找一个社区，无论是胶水俱乐部还是其他地方，你都可以在那儿讨论这些事情。因为我确实认为，相互依靠来学习，了解什么是真实的、什么不是真实的，什么有价值、什么没有价值，这一点非常重要。在胶水俱乐部，我们做的很多事情就是在确认：还有别人看到这些吗？这真的很有价值。你也可以在莱尼 land 做到这一点，但就是要走出去，讨论什么是真实什么不真实，不要只是呆在孤独悲伤的角落里。但我想说的第二件事，莱尼，谢谢你为此留出了空间。

I think it's important like there's so much space right now for the like what should I do and what you know what skills should I get and what course should I take and you know what tool should I try next who's hot today but like we aren't talking enough about the human side of this and what it feels like to be going through this for everyone. And so I'm grateful that you reached out and we talked about making space to talk about this because I think hopefully people will leave feeling a little more like sane and like, oh, everybody else is feeling a little crazy right now, too. And there's lots of people out there grieving and like that's okay. Like that's normal. So, thank you, Lenny. Thank you, Molly. I think of these I have a a term for these sorts of episodes. I call them Trojan horse episodes where people come for like all this tactical concrete. I need to how do I use AI in this way?

中文：我觉得这很重要，因为现在关于‘我该做什么？我应该掌握哪些技能？我该选哪门课程？我接下来应该尝试什么工具？今天谁很热门？’等问题的空间太多了，但是我们并没有足够地讨论人与人之间的感受，以及经历这些事情的感受对每个人意味着什么。所以我很感激你主动联系我，我们谈到了为讨论这些事情腾出空间，因为我希望人们离开时能感觉稍微理智一点，意识到‘哦，现在大家也都有点疯狂啊’，而且外面有很多人在经历悲伤，这是没问题的，这是正常的。所以，谢谢你，莱尼。谢谢你，莫莉。我对这类节目有一个称呼，我称它们为‘特洛伊木马式节目’，因为人们一开始是为了各种具体的战术而来，比如‘我需要怎么在这方面使用 AI？’

How do I become a better PM?

中文：我怎样才能成为一个更好的项目经理？

And then I get there's these like you get therapy important episodes that slip right in. Yeah, exactly. You're like, "Oh, okay. I didn't know I needed that, but that was very helpful." Yeah.

中文：然后我明白了，有些就像是你得到的治疗重要时刻，会悄悄出现。是的，没错。你会想，“哦，好吧，我不知道自己需要那个，但那非常有帮助。”是的。

So, well, welcome to the Trojan horse smuggling in. I love it. Very timely with the Odyssey these days, huh? Yeah, dude. All right, Molly. Well, thank you so much for being here.

中文：所以，嗯，欢迎来到特洛伊木马偷运。我喜欢它。最近和《奥德赛》很及时，是吧？是啊，老兄。好吧，莫莉。非常感谢你来这里。

Yeah. Thanks for having me, Lenny.

中文：是的。谢谢你邀请我，莱尼。

Bye, everyone. Bye, everybody.

中文：再见，大家。再见，各位。

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