老师没来上课、成绩单却在报喜：一位教育学者反驳汉娜-琼斯的择校之悔

这一期《The Reason Interview With Nick Gillespie》是一档对谈，主持人 Nick Gillespie 请来的嘉宾是教育学者 Robert Pondiscio，主题是他对 Nikole Hannah-Jones 那篇《纽约时报杂志》长文的回应。Pondiscio 的论点很集中：那篇关于「我把女儿送进了差学校」的自述里，真正该被追问的失败是学校有没有能力把基本的事做好，而不是种族、贫困或经费；而这层追问，在围绕那篇文章的所有讨论里几乎都被绕过去了。访谈全长 51 分钟，前半段是这条「能力」论点与问责制、择校运动的交手，中间谈到休斯顿的学区改革与教育储蓄账户的扩张，最后落到阅读到底是怎么学会的。想判断这场争论值不值得细听的读者，直接看前 20 分钟，和最后关于阅读与背景知识的 10 分钟。

Pondiscio 把自己的核心不满写成了一个小短句：学校知道该做什么。他的意思正好相反。在他的小报专栏里，他写道，Hannah-Jones 的女儿没学会分数，不是因为她同学是黑人；老师反复不去上班，不是因为这所学校被隔离；作业没有被批改，也不是因为富裕家庭的孩子去了别处。这些都是无能的证据。1

他在节目里把这套要求说得很朴素：一所有能力的学校，每天会把一位合格的老师放在孩子面前；这位老师缺勤时，学校有维持教学的计划；老师要布置作业、批改作业、把反馈给学生；学校要评估孩子会什么、能做什么；成绩单要对学生和家长传达真实信息；孩子掉队时，要有人发现并介入；校长要为以上这些负责。

而 Hannah-Jones 笔下那些细节，在他看来恰好是这套东西全面失灵的样子：孩子在人满为患的学校、成绩单上是 A、进了代数课却不会分数，请来家教才发现问题；午饭时间食堂里孩子互相追打；家长反复得到安抚，直到孩子的学业缺口大到无法忽视。2

节目里有一段值得单独拎出来。Gillespie 提醒，Hannah-Jones 一向反对标准化测试，而 Pondiscio 反问：如果孩子成绩单上数学全是 A、州测却是低分，这本来就该是一记警钟。

他的结论是有分寸的。他在专栏里写道，测评与问责起过一个不可替代的作用——它让学校更难在家长面前把没学会说成学会了。Hannah-Jones 的女儿之所以受到伤害，不是因为大人测她测得太多，而是因为成绩单告诉她家人她在进步、而她并没有。但他同时把话收住：问责能告诉你一所学校在失败，却不会告诉你里面的人该怎么改进；它能制造紧迫感，制造不了专业能力。

他还提到一个反讽。Hannah-Jones 当年把《不让一个孩子掉队》说成是对融合教育的放弃——用测评和问责去让「贫穷的黑人和拉丁裔学校」达到白人学校的水平。而这篇文章描述的失败，恰好是当年那批改革者所反对的：把低期待伪装成同情，让分数隐瞒而不是传达信息，为失败找解释而不是去纠正。

这是本期最容易被忽略、也最有意思的一层。Pondiscio 毫不掩饰自己是择校的支持者，但他把同一句质问转向了同阵营的人：你们有一个想法，觉得有大量才华和活力正等着从官僚和工会手里被释放出来。这个想法是哪儿来的？

他在专栏里用更白的话说：换掉签工资条的那个人，不会让一位不称职的老师突然称职；结构性改革能创造改进的条件，却保证不了改进。他引用了经济学家 Roland Fryer 在《华尔街日报》上的说法——择校能提供从差学校的出口，它不是生产好学校的生产函数。1

节目里，Gillespie 把常见的反驳摆出来：学校办不好，学生就会走，办学者因此被追责。Pondiscio 的回答是，这确实是那套论证，而且并不缺乏说服力，他自己也认为竞争会有好效果——但它不创造能力。他对择校派的告诫因此是一句很具体的话：不要假定能力存在。

Pondiscio 的说法有实证来源。为了写 2019 年那本《How the Other Half Learns》，他在纽约市的 Success Academy 特许学校系统里蹲点了一年，本意是想搞清楚这所学校为什么能持续拿出好成绩——他当时的第一反应是「他们一定在数字上做了手脚」。3

节目里，Gillespie 把问题推到了最尖锐处：如果 Success Academy 的成绩来自极端投入的家长，那它可复制吗？Pondiscio 的回应是把话题引向对照——每年都有关于史岱文森高中（Stuyvesant）只录取个位数黑人学生的报道，而与此同时，一批在纽约市做了二十多年的特许学校每年把成百上千的黑人和棕色人种学生送进名校。他的问题很简单：如果你真的相信低收入有色人种的孩子需要的是能干的学校，为什么这部分经验不在你的方案里？

谈到纽约市长 Zohran Mamdani 与其教育总监 Samuels，Pondiscio 给了对方一份少见的肯定。他说自己 25 年来最关心的议题就是识字率，而纽约市在上一任市长任内推翻了 Lucy Calkins 那套方法，改用更结构化的阅读课程，这就是 NYC Reads。他当时最担心的是新市长上任要另起一套，于是公开呼吁不要动这个项目——结果对方保留了。4

他的理由扣回本期主线：如果你想制造教师的专业能力，就不能每隔二十分钟换一次课程，必须选定一套、坚持下去。

Gillespie 问，一个没法每天通勤 40 分钟送孩子去别处的家长，到底还有什么办法。Pondiscio 给的答案是一个现实观察：在纽约谈教育储蓄账户（ESA），别人的反应是「那是什么」；在得州和佛州谈同一件事，所有人都在谈它。他估计已有大约 14 个州落地，等于这个国家一半的家长如今可以选择把州里的钱拿去买私立教育，或者去微型学校、在家上学。5

他也预判了纽约的位置：如果五十个州都做了，纽约会是排在第四十九或第五十的那一个。背后的原因他说得很直白——他不愿意把这件事简化成「工会反对」，但教师工会的集体谈判确实在为教师而非学生的利益议价。

访谈最后十几分钟转到阅读教学，Pondiscio 在这里给出的框架比前面所有政策讨论都更完整。

他自称是 E. D. Hirsch Jr. 不加掩饰的信徒。Hirsch 在 1987 年出版《Cultural Literacy》，随后创办 Core Knowledge Foundation。他的核心论点是：阅读理解的瓶颈不在解码，而在背景知识；作者和读者之间要有一批共有的知识储备与词汇，理解才能发生。6

Pondiscio 由此推出两条判断。第一，「阅读科学」运动是对的，但有过头的风险——拼音和自然拼读是把孩子带到起跑线，不是终点。第二，当学校为了专攻阅读和数学而砍掉历史、科学、艺术和音乐时，它砍掉的恰好是真正决定阅读理解的东西。

他还给了两个可检验的对照。一个是休斯顿：州政府在 2023 年接管学区、任命 Mike Miles 之后，三年里学校评级出现明显改善，学区已开始讨论结束接管；7 Pondiscio 说当地对这套改革的抵触情绪很强，人们几乎不愿承认原来的系统有多差。另一个是英格兰：有全国统一课程、教师培养方式不同，过去十到十五年国际测评表现提升明显。他没有主张美国照搬，而是说，佛罗里达、得州、亚利桑那这样的州完全可以照做——并且他愿意下注：照做的州，十年后会是全美第一。

Robert Pondiscio 是美国企业研究所（AEI）高级研究员，隶属该所的 James Q. Wilson K-12 教育研究项目，著有《How the Other Half Learns: Equality, Excellence, and the Battle over School Choice》（2019）。他此前在南布朗克斯的一所薄弱公立学校教过五年书（2002—2007），做过 Core Knowledge Foundation 的传播总监、Fordham Institute 的高级研究员与对外事务副总裁，也在 Democracy Prep 特许学校系统任教公民课。他更早的二十年是新闻从业者，做过《时代》周刊的公共事务总监和《商业周刊》的传播总监。3

E. D. Hirsch Jr. 是文学学者与教育理论家，《Cultural Literacy》（1987）与 Core Knowledge 课程体系的作者，Pondiscio 在节目里称他的观点「有认知科学支撑」。

Nikole Hannah-Jones 是《纽约时报杂志》记者、1619 计划主笔、麦克阿瑟奖得主；本期讨论的那篇文章发表于 2026 年 9 月 20 日。8

说明：以下转录由本期官方音频自动识别后按讲话人分段整理，每 10 分钟标注一次时间轴。Nick Gillespie 为主持人，Robert Pondiscio 为嘉宾；机器识别的讲话人归属在两人快速接话处可能有个别标错。

Nick Gillespie（00:00） This is a special bonus episode. My guest today is Robert Pondiscio. He is, per his Twitter or ex-biography, a dad, teacher, volunteer fireman, American, Senior Fellow at the American Enterprise Institute and the author of How the Other Half Learns, a book that came out about six or seven years ago, which we talked about on this show. He also has an exceptional Substack that's totally free called The Next 30 Years. So Robert Pondiscio, thanks for talking to Reason today. Thank you, Nick, and thanks for that warm intro. Well, all I do is read what you write. Which I do a lot of. At least someone does. The prompt for this conversation was that blockbuster piece that Nikole Hannah-Jones had in the New York Times a bit ago, where she kind of copped to the fact that she had made a mistake by sending her daughter to a couple of mediocre to bad public schools out of an ideological commitment. Yeah. 这是一期特别的加场节目。今天我的嘉宾是根据他的推特或前传记，他是一个爸爸、老师、志愿消防员、美国人、美国企业研究所高级研究员，以及《另一半如何学习》一书的作者，这本书大约在六七年前出版，我们在节目中讨论过。他还有一个非常出色且完全免费的 Substack 叫做《未来三十年》。所以，罗伯特·庞迪，谢谢你今天来和 Reason 聊天。谢谢你，尼克，也谢谢你的热情介绍。嗯，我所做的只是读你写的东西，而我确实读得很多。至少有人读。引发这次对话的契机是尼科尔·汉娜-琼斯不久前在《纽约时报》发表的一篇轰动文章，她在文中某种程度上承认了一个错误，即出于意识形态上的坚持，她把女儿送到几所普通到不好的公立学校。是的。

Robert Pondiscio（01:10） You know, to integrated education. I mean, it's a little bit confusing because she was actually sending her daughter to a heavily minority school, but said she was doing it partly in the name of integrating the New York City public school system. People should check that out. You know, that story out. It's in the show notes. But what I would like to do is to talk. You wrote a remarkable in-depth and sharp report. 你知道，为了融合教育。我的意思是，这有点令人困惑，因为她实际上是把女儿送到一所少数族裔比例很高的学校，但她说部分原因是为了在纽约市公立学校系统中推动融合。人们应该去了解一下这个故事。这个故事在节目笔记里。但我想做的是来谈谈。你写了一篇非凡的、深入且敏锐的报道。

Nick Gillespie（01:36） Rebuke to the story. And you had two big critiques of the piece. First was what you talked about as the presumption of institutional competence. And then second, it was about this idea in ed reform circles that, you know, well, in order to reform education, we've got to reform racism and classism and differential abilities, like all of these system-wide things, which means that, you know, Among other things, the kids who are in school now will, you know, they'll be 90 years old by the time the schools get fixed. We're going to talk about both of these, as well as Mayor Mamdani's plans for the New York City public school system, which is leaking students in a powerful way for all sorts of reasons. But first, let's start with that. You talk about, you know, there is this presumption of competence among schools. What do you mean by that? 对这个故事的指责。你对这篇文章有两个大的批评。首先是你所说的对机构能力的假设。其次，是关于教育改革圈子里的这个想法，你知道，为了改革教育，我们必须改革种族主义、阶级主义和能力差异这样的系统性问题，这意味着，你知道，除了其他事情之外，现在在校的孩子们在学校被改善之前可能已经 90 岁了。我们将讨论这两个问题，以及市长曼达尼对纽约市公立学校系统的计划，这个系统由于各种原因正在大量流失学生。但首先，让我们从那开始。你提到，学校里存在这种能力的假设。你指的是什么？

Robert Pondiscio（02:33） That schools know what to do. And at the risk of diverting us right away, Nick, I want to say right at the outset, I didn't view her piece as copying to a mistake. What was the phrase that you just used, an apology? Because technology... She was apologizing to her daughter, but she certainly didn't apologize at all to a generation of folks who made the decision that she makes and now cops to. So there is still an apology owed, and it's more to just her daughter. 学校知道该怎么做。而且冒着立刻转移话题的风险，Nick，我想一开始就说，我并不认为她的作品是在为错误道歉。你刚才用的那个词是什么，抱歉吗？因为技术……她是向她的女儿道歉，但她当然根本没有向做出她所做决定的那一代人道歉。所以仍然欠一份道歉，而且不仅仅是对她的女儿。

Nick Gillespie（03:03） And interestingly, her daughter, both in the piece and then in a subsequent radio, an episode of This American Life, was like, Mom, you really screwed up. Like her daughter is like... 有趣的是，她的女儿，无论是在这篇作品中，还是在随后《美国生活》的一个广播节目中，都像是在说，妈妈，你真的搞砸了。她的女儿就像……

Robert Pondiscio（03:15） Taking her to the woodshed on this. That's right. I happened to listen to that this morning. And I think if I had I listened to it before I wrote that piece, Nick, I had written an angrier piece. Yeah. Because she doesn't seem to get it, to be perfectly honest. So let's talk about competence. What I mean by that, and I wrote this in the piece, you know, Nikole Hannah-Jones has been speaking for 10, 15 years about how the reason schools are bad is because they are segregated. Right. But what I wrote was that her daughter didn't fail to learn fractions because her classmates were black. Nick Gillespie, the founder and CEO of the American Life Foundation, is a member of the American Life Foundation. And so the takeaway, my takeaway on the Nikole Hannah-Jones story was how she simply missed all this. The basic blocking and tackling that a decent school, not even a great school, just a competent one does, simply wasn't happening. And for all of her talk about what we were doing. We're engaged. We got codes for kids. We, you know, we're involved in the PTA. It never occurred to her to ask the question, hey, wait a minute. Why is this teacher simply not doing his or her basic job? 带她去木棚。 这是正确的。 我今天早上碰巧听到了这个。 我想，如果我在写那篇文章之前听过它，尼克，我就会写出一篇更愤怒的文章。 是的。 因为说实话，她似乎并不明白。 那么我们来谈谈能力。 我的意思是，我在这篇文章中写到了这一点，你知道，妮可·汉娜-琼斯已经谈论了 10、15 年，关于学校之所以不好的原因是因为它们是种族隔离的。 正确的。 但我写的是，她的女儿没有因为她的同学是黑人而无法学习分数。 尼克·吉莱斯皮（Nick Gillespie）是美国生命基金会的创始人兼首席执行官，也是美国生命基金会的成员。 因此，我对妮可·汉娜·琼斯故事的看法是，她只是错过了这一切。 一所像样的学校，甚至不是一所伟大的学校，只是一所有能力的学校所做的基本阻止和解决，根本没有发生。 她一直在谈论我们正在做的事情。 我们订婚了。 我们为孩子们准备了密码。 你知道，我们参与了 PTA。 她从来没想过要问这个问题，嘿，等一下。 为什么这位老师根本不做他或她的基本工作？

Nick Gillespie（05:09） And remind us of in the story at certain points, she realizes that her daughter, who thinks she's good at math in particular, and seems to be getting good grades in math, then realizes it's, I guess, partly a standardized test or she's applying for a different type of school. And she realizes, like, holy shit, I suck at math. But how can that be? Because I'm getting good grades. I'm doing all that. Yeah. Yeah. 并且在故事的某些部分提醒我们，她意识到她的女儿，尤其认为自己擅长数学，而且似乎数学成绩不错，然后她意识到，这部分可能是因为标准化考试，或者她正在申请不同类型的学校。她意识到，哇，我数学真差。但怎么可能呢？因为我成绩很好，我做的都是那些作业。是的，是的。

Robert Pondiscio（05:37） What I'm curious about, because from memory, I believe that Nikole Hannah-Jones is anti-testing. And look, I'm not a testing hawk. Right. 我很好奇，因为凭记忆，我认为妮可·汉娜-琼斯反对考试。你看，我也不是考试狂热支持者。对吧。

Nick Gillespie（05:45） But there's some value to them. And this is one of the reasons. In other words, if your kid is getting straight A's in math on their report card, but they get a one or a two, a low grade in the state test, that should be an alarm bell. So I'm curious. I haven't heard any coverage about whether or not her kids actually took the test or not, because a lot of parents have their kids decline to take the standardized test. 但它们还是有一定价值的。这就是其中一个原因。换句话说，如果你的孩子在数学成绩单上全是 A，但在州考试中得了一或二，即低分，那应该引起警戒。所以我很好奇。我还没有听到任何关于她的孩子是否真的参加了考试的报道，因为很多家长让孩子拒绝参加标准化考试。

Robert Pondiscio（06:11） But that's the reason we have them. But you look, your point is an excellent one. One of the things that we do, and again, I'm not justifying this, and this is incompetent behavior, is if the kid, I'm making up this example, if the kid turns in their assignment, if they're well behaved, you know, if they seem to be getting it, I'm going to give that kid an A. For effort, in a sense. So, yeah, Nikole Hannah-Jones' daughter thought she was a good math student. And then it turned out she hired a math tutor for her daughter who said, wait a minute, this kid doesn't know fractions. This kid's getting an A in algebra and doesn't have basic competence in math. That is something that should have been – and I'm not going to throw Hannah-Jones under the bus. But that is something the school should have brought attention to. 但这就是我们让他们存在的原因。不过你看，你的观点非常好。我们所做的其中一件事，再说一次，我不是在为此辩解，这是不称职的行为，如果孩子，我举这个例子，如果孩子交了作业，如果他们表现良好，你知道，如果他们似乎理解了，我会给那个孩子一个 A。从某种意义上说，是为了努力。所以，是的，妮可·汉娜-琼斯的女儿认为自己是一个数学好学生。然后事实证明，她为女儿请了一位数学导师，而导师说，等等，这个孩子不会分数。这孩子在代数中拿到 A，但在数学上没有基本能力。这本应是——我不会把汉娜-琼斯推下车。但这是学校本应注意到的事情。

Nick Gillespie（06:57） Well, and this goes to that pretense of competence. You know, you assume, and I remember this, you know, the guy I graduated from high school 45 years ago. So it's been a long time. And my parents were uneducated. But, you know, when they dropped us off at school, it was, you know, the teachers were assuring, you know, people during the baby boom era and ever since. They're like, hey, we're professionals. We're going to teach your kid how to do fractions. We're going to teach them how to read. We are... 好，这就涉及到那种假装有能力的表现。你知道，你会假设，我记得这个，你知道，我高中毕业已经 45 年了。所以已经很久了。我的父母没有受过教育。但是，你知道，当他们送我们去学校的时候，你知道，老师们在向人们保证，你知道，在婴儿潮时期以及此后。他们就像，嘿，我们是专业人士。我们会教你的孩子分数，我们会教他们阅读。我们会……

Robert Pondiscio（07:27） We are, you know, licensed professionals. Leave it to us. And basically what you're saying is that again and again in public schools and particularly in the New York City schools, that presumption of competence should be challenged at every moment because the teachers either are not actually teaching the kids or in many cases they're not even showing up. Yeah, I think my most controversial take in education, I say this all the time, there are roughly 4 million teachers in American public schools. If you have 4 million of anybody doing anything, by definition, you're going to have a range of abilities and motivation. I think that number 4 million, that means there are more teachers than there are, I think, doctors, lawyers, and engineers combined. So we have to be realistic about that. If you're going to have people of ordinary competence, and I want to be careful here, I'm not a teacher basher. I'm a former public school teacher myself. The job has to be doable by those people. So yeah, I earlier described a litany of complaints about just basically showing up and teaching fractions. But on the other hand, you can make a pretty good case that in the last 20 or 30 years, we have just added on to teachers' job requirements in ways that makes the job almost impossible to do. 您知道，我们是有执照的专业人士。 交给我们吧。 基本上你所说的是，在公立学校，特别是在纽约市的学校，这种能力的推定应该每时每刻都受到挑战，因为老师要么没有真正教孩子们，要么在很多情况下他们甚至没有出现。 是的，我认为我对教育的看法最具争议性，我一直这么说，美国公立学校大约有 400 万教师。 如果你有 400 万人做任何事，根据定义，你将拥有一系列的能力和动力。 我认为这个数字是 400 万，这意味着教师的数量比医生、律师和工程师的总和还要多。 所以我们必须现实一点。 如果你要拥有普通能力的人，我想在这里小心，我不是一个攻击老师的人。 我本人曾是一名公立学校老师。 这项工作必须由这些人来完成。 所以，是的，我之前描述了一连串关于基本出现和教授分数的抱怨。 但另一方面，你可以提出一个很好的例子，在过去的 20 或 30 年里，我们刚刚增加了教师的工作要求，使得这项工作几乎不可能完成。

Nick Gillespie（08:48） And certainly they're not going to be – and it's not like this would be easy, but they're not going to be promoted or fired or rewarded based on how well – whatever they add to their students' learning. Right. And I'm not saying that would be easy, but on top of being all of this other stuff, they're not being held accountable for classroom results. 当然，他们也不会……而且这也不是说这会很容易，但他们不会因为他们对学生学习的贡献有多大而被晋升、解雇或奖励。对。我不是说这会容易，但在承担所有这些其他事情的同时，他们对课堂成果并不负责。

Robert Pondiscio（09:11） Okay, but I want to be careful here. And again, my ed reform credentials, I think, are in pretty good order. And I wrote about this in the piece as well. For over 20 years, I've gone to ed reform conferences when we talk about testing and accountability and standards. And I was trying to be a bit of a smart aleck, say, hold on a second. You have this idea that every teacher in America knows how to do this stuff. Where did you get that idea? 好的，但我想在这里小心一点。再说一次，我认为我的教育改革资历相当不错。我在文章中也写到了这点。二十多年来，我一直参加教育改革会议，当我们讨论测试、问责制和标准时。我当时试图有点耍小聪明地说，等等。你们有这个想法，认为美国的每位教师都知道如何做这些事情。你们是从哪里得到这个想法的？

Nick Gillespie（09:34） Have you ever been to ed school? Well, they told us, didn't they? I mean, but don't they? I mean, or is it one of those things where it's like, Well, you know, you know, you should leave it to us and you should pay us more than you than we are getting paid because we are the professionals here. But we're not going to promise anything. 你有没有去过教育学院？嗯，他们告诉我们了，不是吗？我是说，但他们不是吗？我的意思是，还是那种情况，就像，嗯，你知道，你知道，你应该把它交给我们处理，而且你应该比我们得到的报酬更多地付给我们，因为我们是这里的专业人士。但我们不会承诺什么。

Robert Pondiscio（09:50） Well, and again, this is I don't have this data at arm's length here, but I was just speaking about it with somebody within the last hour. Somebody suggested, oh, we should pay teachers more than $200. So the question that I have, and this gets back to basic competence, is hold on a second. If we are funding, because we love to say, oh, schools are underfunded. They're actually not compared to other countries. If we are paying all this money, what are we paying for if we're not getting good performance? So again, I want to be careful here. I don't want to be a teacher basher. 好，再说一次，我手头没有这些数据，但我刚刚在过去一个小时内和某人谈论过这个问题。有人建议，哦，我们应该支付教师超过 200 美元。那么我有一个问题，这又回到了基本能力的问题，那就是等等。如果我们在资助学校，因为我们喜欢说，哦，学校资金不足，其实与其他国家相比并非如此。如果我们支付这么多钱，如果没有得到好的表现，我们到底在付什么呢？所以再说一次，我想在这里小心一点。我不想成为一个批评教师的人。

Nick Gillespie（10:37） Is it impossible in New York City schools or in schools generally to fire people? One of the ways that you think you would hold employees accountable is if they're not doing a good job. I mean, first off, you're measuring that. And then secondly, you can get rid of them. And I can remember from decades ago, I'm sure Reason ran this, and I'm sure various places that you've worked We've had a lot of people that have written for have also done this where they would talk about how hard it is to fire even the most egregiously awful kind of criminal teachers. It seems to get it's hard. Is that still the case in New York? 在纽约市的学校或一般的学校里，解雇员工是不可能的吗？你认为的一种让员工负责任的方法是，如果他们的工作做得不好。我的意思是，首先，你要衡量他们的表现。然后，其次，你可以让他们离开。我记得几十年前，我肯定《Reason》刊登过这个，还有我确定你曾经工作过的各种地方，我们有很多为之写作的人也做过类似的事，他们会谈到解雇即便是最恶劣、最违法的教师有多么困难。似乎真的很难。那么在纽约，现在情况还是这样吗？

Robert Pondiscio（11:18） Yeah, I haven't seen data recently, but I know for many years, you know, you would hear what they call the dance of the lemons, you know, being pejorative about teachers who were terrible and you get rid of them. They wouldn't get fired. They would just go someplace else. And look, we still do have an issue right now with teacher shortages. So it's not as if there's a long line of qualified people out the door waiting for the opportunities. 是的，我最近没有看到数据，但我知道多年来，你知道，你会听到他们所谓的“柠檬之舞”，你知道，这是对那些很差的老师的贬义说法，你会把他们弄走。他们不会被解雇，他们只会去别的地方。看看，我们现在仍然存在教师短缺的问题。所以，并不是说有一长队合格的人在门外等待机会。

Nick Gillespie（11:40） Why is that? And I'm sorry to jump on your answer, but if being a teacher is a, you know, it pays better than average, it requires a college degree, but two thirds of people go to college now anyway. And then you do some continuing education, you get summers off, blah, blah, blah. Like why aren't there more teachers if it seems to be like a pretty remunerative job? 为什么会这样？很抱歉打断你的回答，但如果当老师是一个，你知道，比平均水平工资高，要求大学学位，但现在三分之二的人反正都会上大学。然后你还可以继续教育，暑假放假，诸如此类。既然看起来这是一个相当有报酬的工作，为什么没有更多的老师呢？

Robert Pondiscio（12:07） We could have a very long conversation about this because there's no easy answer. I mean, one, if you do have a college degree and you're qualified, there are more attractive positions. So sure, teachers might get paid better in this country than other countries, but they don't get paid as well as doctors, lawyers, accountant, et cetera. And it's just a damn hard job, Nick. And it's unpleasant, okay? We are making the job. I'm not saying this in a cavalier way. When I say that we made the job too hard for mere mortals, I mean it quite literally. The requirements are extraordinary. The time commitment is extraordinary. You've got behavior problems. Coming out of COVID, we lost 25 years of academic gains. 我们可以就这个话题展开很长的讨论，因为没有简单的答案。我的意思是，首先，如果你有大学学位并且有资格，你会有更多更有吸引力的职位。所以当然，老师在这个国家的工资可能比其他国家高，但他们的收入并不如医生、律师、会计师等等。而且这工作真是太难了，Nick。而且令人不快，好吗？我们让这份工作变得如此困难。我说这话并不是轻率地。我说我们让这份工作对普通人来说太难时，我是字面意思说的。这些要求非常高。时间投入也非常大。你还得处理行为问题。经历了新冠疫情之后，我们失去了 25 年的学术进步。

Nick Gillespie（12:50） It's just a damn hard job and can be an unpleasant one, especially when you're talking about schools that are low performing in challenging neighborhoods, etc. You've got to have a bit of missionary zeal to do it. Yeah, Hannah-Jones talks about, you know, visiting the school like during lunchtime or her daughter recounting stories where people, you know, kids are just, you know, it's an elementary school. Kids are just running around, hitting each other that are in the lunchroom. And, you know, it's like, obviously, we all know scenes like that. But it's like, if you're in a chaotic situation, you know, it's that's tough, right? I mean, you to deal with. 这就是一份非常艰难的工作，而且可能会令人不快，尤其是当你谈论的是位于困难社区、表现不佳的学校等等。你必须有一点使命感才能做这份工作。是的，Hannah-Jones 提到过，比如说在午餐时间去学校，或者她女儿讲述的一些故事，人们，孩子们，你知道的，就是小学的孩子们到处跑，在餐厅里互相打闹。你知道的，这种场景显然我们都见过。但如果你身处混乱的环境中，那确实很难，对吧？我意思是，你必须应对这些情况。

Robert Pondiscio（13:33） Yeah, but this is what kind of infuriated me in listening to her interview on This American Life. She was complaining about the principal not responding to emails, etc. But I didn't hear any signals that she was cranky about that. Hey, wait a minute. Why are the adults not doing their job? And in this case, it was the cafeteria supervisors just letting the kids run rampant and beat each other up. 是的，但这让我在听她接受《This American Life》采访时感到有些生气。她抱怨校长不回复邮件等等。但我没听到她对此感到恼火的任何信号。等等，成年人为什么不履行自己的职责？在这种情况下，正是餐厅监督员让孩子们为所欲为，互相打架。

Nick Gillespie（13:57） Yeah, and she is very upset at things, and I'm not minimizing any of this, but systemic differences in results between minorities and non-minority students and things like that. And she kind of played fast and loose with this because it no longer fit her narrative, but she was saying that nationally, minority-majority schools get less funding than wealthy, affluent white schools in New York City. That is not really the case. And the school was – or is currently funded at somewhere around $44,000 per student. 是的，她对很多事情都非常不满，我并不是在淡化这一切，但少数族裔学生和非少数族裔学生之间的系统性结果差异之类的情况确实存在。她在这个问题上有点随意处理，因为这不再符合她的叙事，但她曾说过，在全国范围内，少数族裔占多数的学校获得的资金比纽约市富裕的白人学校少。实际上情况并非如此。这所学校——或者说目前的情况——每个学生的资助大约是 44,000 美元。

Robert Pondiscio（14:35） $52,000. More when you include a variety of other things like the lunch program, transportation, some of the – The bonds and rent on the buildings and things like that. But so it's a lot of money that is being given out per kid, which leads to the second critique where you say, you know, children should not have to wait for America to solve poverty, racism, segregation, inequality or anything. 52,000 美元。当你包括其他各种东西时，会更多，比如午餐计划、交通、一部分——债券和建筑物的租金等等。但是，每个孩子分配到的钱非常多，这就引出了第二个批评点，你说，孩子们不应该等待美国来解决贫困、种族主义、隔离、不平等等问题。

Nick Gillespie（15:00） Any other social problems before receiving a decent education? Okay, that's a great statement of purpose. What are the reforms that we can do now rather than like, okay, you know, we got to go back to the drawing board? Like, you know, how do we expedite those kinds of reforms that will help kids who are still in school? 在接受良好教育之前还有其他社会问题吗？好的，这是一个很棒的目标陈述。我们现在可以做哪些改革，而不是说，好吧，你知道，我们必须回到起点？比如，你知道，我们如何加快这些改革，以帮助仍在上学的孩子们？

Robert Pondiscio（15:21） Nick Gillespie, Founder and CEO, of the of the NGC Network. Network. Nick Gillespie, Founder and CEO, You had charter schools, at least in New York City, being invited in. You had the No Child Left Behind, which we can talk about the details there. There was a national... Moral urgency, I think we could say, to just say, look, this is an embarrassment. We can't do this anymore. We cannot allow low-income kids, black and brown kids, to simply be failed this badly. There was a charter school movement which fell into disrepair that we called no excuses. And it didn't mean we were not making no excuses for kids. There were no excuses for us as adults to not raise the level of student outcome for children. And for about a decade, strangely enough, it seems weird to say this, that was even bipartisan. I mean, both Democrats and Republicans supported the idea of closing the achievement gap. When was the last time you heard that phrase? Inviting charter schools to come into places like New York City who were serving exclusively black and brown kids. And then circa 2016, we just kind of lost our nerve. I mean, you alluded to this argument a moment ago, Nick, but back 20, 25 years ago, the school founders who believed in this work, including me, we believe as an active faith, like, look, you know, fixing education is how you fix poverty. And there was some pushback. No, no, if you want to fix schools, you've got to fix poverty. And a lot of these charter schools did quite well, especially in urban areas. There's studies out of Stanford University that show that they made enormous gains. I don't want to be an apologist for charter schools. They haven't been uniformly successful, but urban charters have been in the main successful. But then about 2016, we literally lost our nerve. Nick Gillespie，NGC 网络创始人兼首席执行官。 网络。 Nick Gillespie，创始人兼首席执行官，你们邀请了特许学校，至少在纽约市。你们有“不让一个孩子掉队”，我们可以在那里讨论细节。 我认为我们可以说，这是一种全国性的……道德紧迫感，只是说，看，这是一种尴尬。 我们不能再这样做了。 我们不能让低收入的孩子，黑人和棕色人种的孩子，如此严重地失败。 有一次特许学校运动年久失修，我们对此没有任何借口。 这并不意味着我们不会为孩子们找借口。 作为成年人，我们没有任何借口不提高孩子们的学习成绩水平。 奇怪的是，在大约十年的时间里，这样说似乎很奇怪，甚至是两党合作的。 我的意思是，民主党人和共和党人都支持缩小成就差距的想法。 您最后一次听到这句话是什么时候？ 邀请特许学校进入纽约市等专门为黑人和棕色人种儿童服务的地方。 然后大约在 2016 年，我们有点失去了勇气。 我的意思是，尼克，你刚才提到了这个论点，但早在 20、25 年前，相信这项工作的学校创始人，包括我，我们相信作为一种积极的信仰，就像，看，你知道，解决教育问题就是解决贫困问题。 但也有一些阻力。 不，不，如果你想改善学校，你就必须解决贫困问题。 许多特许学校都表现得很好，尤其是在城市地区。 斯坦福大学的研究表明他们取得了巨大的进步。 我不想成为特许学校的辩护者。 虽然它们并非都取得了成功，但城市特许经营总体上是成功的。 但到了 2016 年左右，我们真的失去了勇气。

Nick Gillespie（17:26） So what went into that? And explain a little with a little more detail or granularity the no excuses movement. This meant that places like, you know, in early school that was a proponent of this was the KIPP system. KIPP account. Right, KIPP Academies, and it was like, okay, you're going to show up, you're going to be wearing a uniform, we'll help pay for it and things like that, but you're going to be dressed for school, you're not going to act up, you're not going to act out. If you are a teacher or an adult in the school, you're going to show up, you're going to do stuff, et cetera. How was that received by the people? And I guess people were choosing to send their kids to these schools, so they kind of liked it. 那么这其中涉及了什么？并且请稍微详细一些地解释一下“无借口运动”。这意味着像早期学校中，支持这一运动的例子就是 KIPP 体系。KIPP 学院，对吧，KIPP 学院。它的意思是，好吧，你要准时到校，你要穿校服，我们会帮忙支付这些费用等等，但你需要穿着校服上学，你不能捣乱，不能调皮。如果你是学校的老师或者成年人，你需要按时到校，完成工作，等等。人们对这种做法的反应如何？我想人们会选择把孩子送到这些学校，所以他们或者说还是挺喜欢的。

Robert Pondiscio（18:10） Yeah, to my knowledge, those schools have never been anything less than popular among parents, especially in contrast to where my kid would have ended up if it were not for a KIPP, a Success Academy, Achievement First, Uncommon Schools, etc. But the irony here, I mean, one, it's just kind of a cult. 是的，据我所知，那些学校在家长中一直都很受欢迎，尤其是相比之下，如果不是因为 KIPP、Success Academy、Achievement First、Uncommon Schools 等，我的孩子可能会去别的学校。但讽刺的是，我的意思是，一方面，它们有点像一种邪教。

Nick Gillespie（18:28） What happened in, you know, around 2016? Two things. One, there was culture war pushback. Like, no, wait a minute, you're trying to, I don't want to paint what you brought up a brush, but you hear complaints like, you're expecting black and brown kids to be white, which I think is overstated. And that means showing up on time, not fidgeting and, you know, whatever. 你知道吗，大约在 2016 年发生了什么？两件事。第一，出现了文化战争的反弹。就像，“等等，你在做什么，你想......”，我不想把你提出来的事情一概而论，但你会听到这样的抱怨，比如，你期望黑人和拉丁裔孩子像白人一样，我认为这种说法被夸大了。这意味着按时到场，不坐立不安，还有其他一些事情。

Robert Pondiscio（18:50） Yeah. Yeah. 嗯。嗯。

Nick Gillespie（18:50） I mean, like the most kind of racist stereotypes you could say about minorities, right? That's exactly right. That's exactly right. 我的意思是，就像你能对少数族裔说的最典型的种族刻板印象，对吧？完全正确。完全正确。

Robert Pondiscio（18:57） But by the same token, we lost our political nerve. So, you know, I'm in New York, Nick Gillespie, founder and CEO of Charter School, is a member of the Charter School And, you know, I'm not somebody who blames teachers unions or whatnot, but but politically, it doesn't matter that these these schools have been successful for for for low income kids. The door is closed. 但同样地，我们失去了政治勇气。所以，你知道，我在纽约，Nick Gillespie，特许学校的创始人兼首席执行官，是特许学校的成员。你知道，我不是那种责怪教师工会或其他什么的人，但在政治上，这些学校对低收入孩子取得成功并不重要。门已经关上了。

Nick Gillespie（19:29） There will not be any more. And that's even or maybe a special in a place like New York, since the New York City public school system biggest in the country is losing kids. I mean, since the covid, it has lost like one hundred and twenty five thousand students. 不会再有了。在像纽约这样的地方，这甚至可能是一种特别情况，因为纽约市的公立学校系统是美国最大的，但正在失去学生。我的意思是，自从新冠疫情以来，它已经失去了大约十二万五千名学生。

Robert Pondiscio（19:43） I think it's about right. One point one million to nine fifty. 我觉得差不多。一百一十万到九百五十万。

Nick Gillespie（19:46） Yeah, and no projections show that increasing. It's partly people left, either parents left the city or they left the public school system, but there's also a demographic shift where people are going to leave. So you actually are talking about a school district or a school system, rather, that has a shrinking population. And sometimes, you know, when you look at the roles of New York City schools, like there might be in a school that was originally for a couple hundred kids or 500 kids, there's like, you know, maybe 50 or 60 kids left. And they still don't want to consolidate or allow charters to kind of pick, you know, come in and pick up some slack here. 是的，而且没有任何预测显示会增长。这部分是因为人们离开了，要么是家长离开了这座城市，要么是他们离开了公立学校系统，但也有一种人口结构变化，人们会选择离开。所以你实际上是在谈论一个学生数量在减少的学区或者学校系统。有时候，你知道，当你看看纽约市学校的班级人数时，比如一个原本有几百名孩子或 500 名孩子的学校，现在可能只剩下大约 50 到 60 名孩子。但他们仍然不想合并，也不允许特许学校进来来分担一些压力。

Robert Pondiscio（20:26） This is one of the conversations I'd love to have with Nikole Hannah-Jones, although I won't. She blocked me on Twitter, so I'm sure we will not have a conversation. But if you take her view of this seriously, hey, we need schools that will serve competently low-income kids of color, and I agree with that, well then hold on a second. Why are you anti-charter? You alluded earlier to the specialized high schools, which every year, predictably, there are stories about how Stuyvesant or Brown Science only allow a single-digit number of Black and Hispanic kids. 这是我非常想和妮可·汉娜-琼斯进行的对话之一，尽管我不会。她在推特上屏蔽了我，所以我确信我们不会有对话。但如果你认真对待她的观点，嘿，我们需要能够胜任地服务低收入有色人种孩子的学校，我同意这一点，那么先等等。你为什么反对特许学校？你之前提到了特定的高中，每年都会有类似的报道，关于斯图文森（Stuyvesant）或布朗科学（Brown Science）只允许个位数的黑人和西班牙裔学生录取。

Nick Gillespie（20:59） I think most recently at Stuyvesant, which is generally regarded as the best high school or among the very best high schools in New York and in the country, it was something like three Black students were... 我认为最近在 Stuyvesant，高中，它通常被认为是纽约乃至全国最好的高中之一，情况大概是有三个黑人学生…

Robert Pondiscio（21:10） Okay, but there are charter schools that have been working in New York City for a generation that are sending literally hundreds of black and brown kids to elite colleges every year. So why is that not part of your solution? 好的，但纽约市有一些特许学校已经运营了一代人，每年实际上将数百名黑人和棕色孩子送入精英大学。那么，为什么这不成为你的解决方案的一部分呢？

Nick Gillespie（21:24） So let me ask you, because in your excellent book, How the Other Half Learns, and you embedded at Success Academies, one of the biggest, most popular, most controversial charter school systems in New York City. You embedded there and you've... You know, you wanted to know, how did this place, how did this system keep returning such good results? And I remember talking with you about this before you had written the book, and you were like, they've got to be juicing the numbers somehow. And there's a long history of both charter school and public school reform programs that just make up numbers. Thank you. As much as students and parents who would be involved to an extreme degree, et cetera. If that's the case, is that scalable? And then what do you do when you have Nicole, somebody like Nikole Hannah-Jones, she herself, I think won a MacArthur Genius Fellowship. She is upper class. She's married to a professional. Okay. 所以让我问你，因为在你那本很棒的书《另一半如何学习》中，你深入到成功学院（Success Academies），这是纽约市最大、最受欢迎、最具争议的特许学校系统之一。你在那里深入调查过，你……你知道，你想知道，这个地方，这个系统是如何不断取得如此好的成绩的。我记得在你写书之前和你谈过，你当时说，他们肯定以某种方式在美化数字。而且特许学校和公立学校改革项目都有很长的历史，有些项目只是捏造数据。谢谢。同时学生和家长也会极度参与，等等。如果情况真是这样，这种模式是否具有可扩展性？然后当你面对尼科尔，比如尼科尔·汉娜-琼斯，她本人，我想，她获得过麦克阿瑟天才奖学金。她属于上层阶级。她嫁给了一位专业人士。好吧。

Robert Pondiscio（22:59） I'm not going to call it hopeless because, I mean, you show me engaged parents. And look, even Nikole Hannah-Jones' kid is going to do fine, right? That essay that she wrote will serve her well when she writes her admissions letter for Harvard or Howard or wherever. Well, interestingly, she... 我不会称它为无望，因为，我是说，你给我看参与度高的家长。看看，就连妮可·汉娜-琼斯的孩子也会没问题，对吧？她写的那篇文章将会在她为哈佛或霍华德或其他学校写入学申请信时对她有帮助。好吧，有趣的是，她……

Nick Gillespie（23:20） Yeah, she said, the daughter said, you know, she wanted to go to Harvard and Nicole Hannah-Jentz is like, you know, like you should be going to Howard. I kind of agree with that as a plebeian from, you know, with multiple degrees from state universities. I don't even like Howard, you know, but it's interesting. Yeah. 是的，她说，女儿说，你知道，她想去哈佛，而妮可·汉娜-延茨就像，你知道，你应该去霍华德。我作为一个来自州立大学、拥有多个学位的平民，有点同意这一点。我甚至都不是很喜欢霍华德，你知道，但这很有趣。是的。

Robert Pondiscio（23:40） No, but I mean, back to your question. I mean, one, you know, my complaint about Nikole Hannah-Jones' piece was she has had a, you know, she has not had a Damascus Road conversion. She apologized to her daughter, but she has not changed her views about education. So I guess I would point you to an example which I'm following fairly closely, which is Houston. I've spent a fair amount there in the last couple of years. So 25 years ago, there were a number of schools chancellors who were national figures. Joel Klein in New York City, Michelle Rhee in Washington, DC, etc. And then because ed reform has sort of lost its luster, we sort of lost patience with Well, a couple of years ago, three years ago, I think, a guy named Mike Miles was put in charge of Houston, which is ironic because Houston 20, 30 years ago was a shining star of ed reform, and then it just fell apart, and it got taken over by the state. Two things are interesting about what's happening in Houston. One, there doesn't seem to be a lot of appetite for this, where there was a lot of kind of just excitement about ed reform and finally we're going to do right by kids. You don't really see that. It's almost as if people in Houston are in denial about how poor the system was doing and they're angry about what this guy is doing. But three years in, and I don't want to overstate the case because we need a longer timeline, three years in the results are look And they literally dictate teacher moves where you're teaching a lesson, you got to do an assessment to see how the kids are doing. The kids who did well, you're going to stay in the class. The kids who need more help, you're going to literally leave the room and go get some more help. So it seems like a system that is designed for teachers of average ability. He's not saying it, but I'll say it. 不，但我的意思是，回到你的问题。 我的意思是，你知道，我对妮可·汉娜·琼斯的作品的抱怨是，她没有进行过大马士革路的改造。 她向女儿道歉，但她并没有改变对教育的看法。 所以我想我会向您指出一个我密切关注的例子，那就是休斯顿。 过去几年我在那里花了相当多的钱。 25 年前，有很多学校校长都是国家级人物。 纽约市的乔尔·克莱因(Joel Klein)，华盛顿特区的米歇尔·李(Michelle Rhee)，等等。然后，因为教育改革已经失去了光彩，我们对嗯，几年前，三年前，我想，一个叫迈克·迈尔斯的人被任命负责休斯顿，这很讽刺，因为 20、30 年前的休斯顿是教育改革的一颗闪亮之星，然后它就崩溃了，被国家接管了。 休斯顿正在发生的事情有两件事很有趣。 第一，似乎对此没有太大兴趣，对教育改革有很多兴奋，最终我们要为孩子们做正确的事。 你并没有真正看到这一点。 就好像休斯顿的人们否认系统的表现有多么糟糕，并对这个人的所作所为感到愤怒。 但是三年过去了，我不想夸大这个案例，因为我们需要更长的时间线，三年的结果看起来它们实际上决定了老师在你教课时的动作，你必须进行评估以了解孩子们的表现。 表现好的孩子，你会留在班级里。 对于需要更多帮助的孩子，您将真正离开房间并去寻求更多帮助。 所以这似乎是一个为中等能力的教师设计的系统。 他不说，但我会说。

Nick Gillespie（25:46） And that is one of the ways, that's one of the ways, you know, kind of changing the curriculum and then holding the student, the teachers responsible for student achievement. That's one of the ways that you create educational reform now rather than in some, you know. 这就是其中的一种方式，这就是其中的一种方式，你知道，某种程度上改变课程，然后让学生和教师对学生的成绩负责。这就是你现在创造教育改革的方式之一，而不是在某个，你知道的，以后的时间里。

Robert Pondiscio（26:06） Yeah, I think so. I mean, one going back. 是的，我觉得是的。我的意思是，一个回去。

Nick Gillespie（26:08） In the future. In the future. Yeah. 在未来。在未来。是的。

Robert Pondiscio（26:09） Yeah, I don't want to overstate testing because, you know, the reform movement of 25 years ago kind of, you know, it went from being this kind of youthful can do movement to sort of, you know, overstaying its welcome, so to speak. And so what happened, though? I mean, in terms of that, and like I 是的，我不想夸大测试的重要性，因为，你知道，25 年前的改革运动有点，嗯，它从一种青年能行的运动，变成了某种程度上，可以说是待得太久的运动。那么，发生了什么呢？我的意思是，就这方面来说，比如我

Nick Gillespie（26:25） I can understand both the benefits and the liabilities of high-stakes testing or regular testing. And I recently talked with a developmental psychologist, Peter Gray, who talked about, who was a colleague and now a critic of Jonathan Haidt, who says it's not phones and social media that are driving kids to anxiety and depression breakdowns. It's It's school curriculum. It's high-stakes testing born out of No Child Left Behind. And he points to surveys that when you ask kids, like, what's on your mind? They're like, I am freaking out about school. But be that as it may, I mean, obviously, you need some kind of external measurement to see if kids are learning, right? But why did that kind of thing fall out of fashion? And a group like KIPP. The Kripp Academy seems to have been a kind of leading indicator of this, where they were no nonsense. We're going to have a pretty regimented curriculum for teachers as well as students. And then they went super woke, it seemed. I mean, is it wokeness here that's the problem? 我可以理解高风险测试或定期测试的好处和缺点。 我最近与一位发展心理学家彼得·格雷进行了交谈，他曾是我的同事，现在是乔纳森·海特的批评者，他说并不是手机和社交媒体导致孩子们焦虑和抑郁。 这是学校课程。 这是一项高风险的测试，源于“不让一个孩子掉队”。 他指出，当你问孩子们时，你在想什么？ 他们说，我对学校感到害怕。 但无论如何，我的意思是，显然，你需要某种外部测量来看看孩子们是否在学习，对吗？ 但为什么这种东西就不再流行了呢？ 还有像 KIPP 这样的团体。 克里普学院似乎是这方面的领先指标，他们并不是胡说八道。 我们将为教师和学生提供非常严格的课程。 然后他们似乎就超级清醒了。 我的意思是，这就是问题所在吗？

Robert Pondiscio（27:33） Or is it pedagogical fads? Let's talk about testing first. So on the one hand, I always say I don't want anybody to sentimentalize Right. Thank you. Kids are not wrong about test anxiety, but I also want to go back to curriculum again. Look, I signed up to be a two-year teacher and I ended up doing this work for 25 years and counting because of curriculum. Stop me if I've told you this story in the past, Nick, but one of my first days in the classroom in South Bronx, I had a staff developer from Lucy Calkins Teachers College. And as a brand new teacher with literally no experience, I remember asking this person, hey, where's my curriculum? What am I supposed to teach? And this woman said to me in the most unctuous tone, well, Mr. Pandicio, you're the best person to know what the students need. And I thought she was making fun of me because I'd come out of a different world. But no, she wasn't kidding. In other words, I was supposed to spend 20, 30, 40 hours a week trying to learn every kid, figure out just the right book to put that book in that kid's hands so they're going to magically become a reader. This is my point about making the job too hard for mere mortals. It was just... Thank you. So that's a problem. So if we, you know, I'm arguing here for restoring some of the ed reform mindset from 25 years ago, raising our expectations for schools, raising expectations for teachers and kids. But let's not make the same mistake we made 25 years ago, which is it's all about the task. So in a place like New York, 还是教学时尚？ 我们先来说说测试。 因此，一方面，我总是说我不希望任何人感伤右派。 谢谢。 孩子们对于考试焦虑并没有错，但我也想再次回到课程上。 听着，我报名成为了一名为期两年的教师，最终我从事这项工作 25 年，而且由于课程的原因，我还在计算这个工作。 尼克，如果我过去告诉过你这个故事，请阻止我，但我在南布朗克斯教室的第一天，我有一位来自露西卡尔金斯师范学院的员工开发人员。 作为一名几乎没有经验的新老师，我记得问过这个人，嘿，我的课程在哪里？ 我应该教什么？ 这位女士用最油腻的语气对我说，潘迪西奥先生，你是最了解学生需要什么的人。 我以为她在取笑我，因为我来自不同的世界。 但不，她不是在开玩笑。 换句话说，我应该每周花 20、30、40 个小时尝试学习每个孩子，找出合适的书并将其放在孩子手中，这样他们就会神奇地成为一名读者。 这就是我的观点，即让这项工作对于凡人来说太难了。 只是……谢谢。 所以这是一个问题。 所以，你知道，我在这里主张恢复 25 年前的一些教育改革思维，提高我们对学校的期望，提高对教师和孩子的期望。 但我们不要再犯 25 年前所犯的同样的错误，那就是一切都与任务有关。 所以在纽约这样的地方，

Nick Gillespie（30:00） Thank you. What could a parent do? Let's say a parent is motivated to seek a better education for their kid, and they don't have the ability to take the kid away from a residential neighborhood school to go somewhere across town or even a 40-minute daily commute, which a lot of parents wouldn't be able to do. What is the option there? 谢谢。父母可以做什么呢？假设一位父母有动力为孩子寻求更好的教育，但他们没有能力把孩子从居住区的学校转到城镇另一边的学校，甚至每天通勤 40 分钟，很多父母都做不到。这种情况下有什么选择呢？

Robert Pondiscio（30:38） I tell you what, let's have this conversation again in a year or two, because right now in New York, whenever I talk about ESAs, educational savings accounts, everybody says, what's that? If I talk about it in Texas and Florida, it's all anybody wants to talk. Or Arizona, right? Right. In, I think, 14 states. Yeah. Literally, half of parents in this country now have the ability, if they choose, to take the state's money and buy themselves a private education or go to a micro school, homeschooling, etc. Right. Or go to a micro school, homeschooling, et cetera. So public education is under... 我跟你说，我们一年或两年后再谈这个话题吧，因为现在在纽约，每当我谈论 ESA，教育储蓄账户时，大家都会说，那是什么？如果我在德克萨斯州和佛罗里达州谈论，几乎所有人都想谈论这件事。或者在亚利桑那州，对吧？对吧。我想是在 14 个州。是的。事实上，现在这个国家有一半的家长，如果他们愿意，有能力使用州政府的钱为自己购买私立教育或者去微型学校、家庭教育等。对吧？或者去微型学校、家庭教育等等。所以公共教育正处于……

Nick Gillespie（31:15） An enormous amount of pressure right now in places like Florida and Texas and Arizona, not in places like New York or Chicago. But is that because, you know, and this again, not to make it only about New York, but, you know, this is where we're both, you know, we're both living. You know, those, you know, Florida, Texas, these are places that are growing in overall population and the school age population is growing. So like schools need to compete for students, which means more resources in a place like New York. Well, you know, not so much. They're, you know, they're trying to hold on to the money that they get. And it seems like a very different dynamic. Are ESAs in New York yet, or are they coming online? Is that because, you know, and this, again, not to make it only about New York, but, you know, this is where we're both, you know, we're both living. You know, those, you know, Florida, Texas, these are places that are growing in overall population and the school age population is growing. So, like, schools need to compete for students, which means more resources. In a place like New York. 目前，佛罗里达州、德克萨斯州和亚利桑那州等地面临着巨大的压力，而不是纽约或芝加哥等地。 但这是因为，你知道，这又不仅仅是为了纽约，而是，你知道，这是我们俩都住的地方。 你知道，佛罗里达州、德克萨斯州这些地方的总人口在增长，学龄人口也在增长。 因此，就像学校需要争夺学生一样，这意味着像纽约这样的地方有更多的资源。 嗯，你知道，没那么多。 你知道，他们正试图保住他们得到的钱。 这似乎是一种非常不同的动态。 ESA 已经在纽约了吗？还是即将上线？ 这是因为，你知道，这又不仅仅是为了纽约，而是，你知道，这是我们俩都住的地方。 你知道，佛罗里达州、德克萨斯州这些地方的总人口在增长，学龄人口也在增长。 因此，学校需要争夺学生，这意味着更多的资源。 在纽约这样的地方。

Robert Pondiscio（32:08） If we go to 50 states with ESAs, New York will be number 49 or 50. It will not come here anytime soon. 如果我们到拥有教育储蓄账户（ESA）的 50 个州去看，纽约将排在第 49 或第 50 位。它短时间内不会来到这里。

Nick Gillespie（32:08） If we go to 50 states with ESAs, New York will be number 49 or 50. It will not come here anytime soon. And is that mostly, I mean, I know you were saying before you didn't want to bash teachers And is that mostly, I mean, I know you were saying before you didn't want to bash teachers' unions or teachers. unions or teachers. I mean, is the reluctance to do that, you know, partly teachers, you know, I mean, is the reluctance to do that, you know, partly teachers, you know, collective collective bargaining units, you know, think that, you know, they're going to bargain for what they bargaining units, you know, think that, you know, they're going to bargain for what they think is in the best interest of the, you know, the teachers, not the kids. think is in the best interest of the, you know, the teachers, not the kids. And teacher union And teacher union leaders have said that, you know, without apology. leaders have said that, you know, without apology, but is it also, well, it's bigger than that. But is it also, well, it's bigger than tha Right. Because like a lot of parents don't seem to be motivated by the idea that, OK, you could take, you know, 10 grand a year and spend it on whatever you want for your kid's education. They're like, no, I'll I'll I'll hold with what I got. 如果我们去 50 个拥有 ESA 的州，纽约将排在第 49 或第 50 位。它不会很快出现在这里。 我的意思是，我知道你之前说过你不想抨击教师，我的意思是，我知道你之前说过你不想抨击教师工会或教师。 工会或教师。 我的意思是，部分教师不愿意这样做，你知道，我的意思是，部分教师不愿意这样做，你知道，部分教师，你知道，集体集体谈判单位，你知道，认为，你知道，他们会为他们谈判单位的东西讨价还价，你知道，认为，你知道，他们会为他们认为最符合教师而不是孩子利益的东西进行讨价还价。 你知道，这符合老师的最大利益，而不是孩子们的最大利益。 教师工会 教师工会领导人已经说过了，你知道，没有道歉。 领导人说过，你知道，没有道歉，但它也，嗯，它比这更重要。 但它也，嗯，它比那个权利更大。 因为就像很多父母一样，他们似乎并没有被这样的想法所激励：好吧，你知道，你可以每年拿 10 英镑，把它花在你想要的孩子的教育上。 他们说，不，我会，我会，我会坚持我所拥有的。

Robert Pondiscio（32:56） I think that's right. But that's why I want to postpone this conversation a couple of years down the road, because I think cultural norms will shift. Right. In other words, you and I, In other words, you and I, I think we're roughly the same age. I think we're roughly the same age. I was class of 80. I was class of 80. There was never a discussion when I was growing up, and I'll bet for you as well, There was never a discussion when I was growing up, and I'll bet for you as well, about where I was going to go to school. about where I was gonna go to school. There was no such thing as private school There was no such thing as private school unless you meant Catholic school. unless you meant Catholic school. I grew up on Long Island. If your parents were talking about boarding school, If your parents were talking about boarding school, I would have said, what did you do? I would've said, what did you do? Because my dad was- Because my dad was trying to prep me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 我认为那是对的。但这就是为什么我想把这次对话推迟几年，因为我认为文化规范会发生变化。对。换句话说，你和我，换句话说，你和我，我认为我们的年龄大致相同。我是 80 届的。我是 80 届的。我成长过程中从未有过讨论，我敢打赌你也是如此，关于我要去哪所学校。关于我要去哪所学校。除非指的是天主教学校，否则根本没有私立学校这种东西。我在长岛长大。如果你的父母谈论寄宿学校，我会说，你做了什么？我会说，你做了什么？因为我爸爸是——因为我爸爸试图给我做准备。是的，是的，是的。

Nick Gillespie（33:18） It's called reform school, right? That's called reform school, right? I sadly, and I won't digress too much on this, but I'm in the middle of writing a piece about my parents for ideological reasons that I only learned late in their lives. They chose to send me and my siblings to Catholic schools, which were so much worse. I sadly, and I won't digress too much on this, but I'm in the middle of writing a piece about my parents for ideological reasons that I only learned late in their lives. They chose to send me and my siblings to Catholic schools, which were so much worse. 这叫做感化学校，对吧？那叫做感化学校，对吧？我很遗憾，我不会对此过多离题，但我正处于写一篇关于我父母的文章中，涉及的思想原因我直到他们生命的晚期才知道。他们选择把我和我的兄弟姐妹送到天主教学校去，那些学校要糟糕得多。我很遗憾，我不会对此过多离题，但我正处于写一篇关于我父母的文章中，涉及的思想原因我直到他们生命的晚期才知道。他们选择把我和我的兄弟姐妹送到天主教学校去，那些学校要糟糕得多。

Robert Pondiscio（33:37） Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. But this idea where historically, you know, 85, 90% of kids were here I live, that's where I go to school, that has already gone away as a norm. But this idea where historically, you know, 85, 90% of kids were here I live, that's where I go to school, that has already gone away as a norm. So my long answer to your question about parents and what they'll do is as that cultural norm shifts, where it's no longer I live here, I go to school there, that almost by definition motivates parents or will cause them to be more motivated because they'll simply have to make that decision. So my long answer to your question about parents and what they'll do is as that cultural norm shifts, where it's no longer I live here, I go to school there, that almost by definition motivates parents or will cause them to be more motivated because they'll simply have to make that decision. Is that, are there ways, I recently did an interview with James Heckman, the Nobel Prize winner, whose work on early interventions into, you know, at-risk children has often been willfully misinterpreted as a blanket endorsement of every kind of bad universal preschool program, pre-K program, or whatever. Is that, are there ways, I recently did an interview with James Heckman, the Nobel Prize winner, whose work on early interventions into, you know, at-risk children has often been willfully misinterpreted as a blanket endorsement of every kind of bad universal preschool program, pre-K program, or whatever. 谢谢。 是的。 是的。 但历史上，你知道，85%、90% 的孩子都在这里，我就在那里上学，这种想法已经作为一种常态而消失了。 但历史上，你知道，85%、90% 的孩子都在这里，我就在那里上学，这种想法已经作为一种常态而消失了。 因此，我对你关于父母以及他们会做什么的问题的长篇回答是，随着文化规范的转变，我不再住在这里，我在那里上学，这几乎从定义上激励了父母，或者会让他们更有动力，因为他们只需要做出这个决定。 因此，我对你关于父母以及他们会做什么的问题的长篇回答是，随着文化规范的转变，我不再住在这里，我在那里上学，这几乎从定义上激励了父母，或者会让他们更有动力，因为他们只需要做出这个决定。 我最近采访了诺贝尔奖获得者詹姆斯·赫克曼（James Heckman），他对高危儿童进行早期干预的工作经常被故意误解为对各种糟糕的普及学前计划、学前教育计划或其他任何计划的全面认可。 我最近采访了诺贝尔奖获得者詹姆斯·赫克曼（James Heckman），他对高危儿童进行早期干预的工作经常被故意误解为对各种糟糕的普及学前计划、学前教育计划或其他任何计划的全面认可。

Nick Gillespie（35:00） You know, Head Start, it's actually much more, you know, kind of nuanced than that. But, you know, he talked about ways in which you get parents often who don't have education or don't they didn't value it for themselves, but they do for their kids. Like, how do you get parents? How do you jumpstart parents to understand they have agency even within as, you know, overwhelming a system as the New York City public school system? 你知道，‘Head Start’项目实际上比那种说法要复杂得多。不过，你知道，他谈到了让那些自己没有受过教育或者自己不重视教育的父母，却为孩子重视教育的方法。比如，如何让父母明白，即使在像纽约市公立学校这样令人感到压力巨大的系统中，他们也拥有自主权？

Robert Pondiscio（35:25） I appreciate the question. It's not one I spend a lot of time thinking about, to be honest. And this is where I'm going to sound like a bad school choice person. And I am, without question, a school choice advocate. But in the piece, I describe this as well, where for years I've said to ed reform people, hey, you have this idea that teachers know what to do. Where'd you get that idea? In the last couple of years, I've been saying the same thing to school choice advocates. Hey, you have this idea, and you alluded to it a few moments ago, Nick. Oh, competition will raise everything. Right. So wait a minute, are you suggesting that a teacher, think of those teachers that Hannah Nicole Jones or Nicole Hannah-Jones described in her daughter's failing schools who didn't show up, who didn't teach fractions, who didn't keep the kids from beating each other senseless in the cafeteria. Are you saying that changing who signs their paycheck is suddenly going to make them effective? Where'd you get that idea? Yeah. It's the competence issue. If you've got a large number of people who simply don't know how to do this job well, I don't see how choice solves that problem. Just because they're no longer working for a public school district, now they're working for a Catholic school, a school of choice, etc. 我很欣赏这个问题。 老实说，我并没有花很多时间思考这个问题。 这就是我听起来像是一个择校不当的人的地方。 毫无疑问，我是择校的倡导者。 但在这篇文章中，我也描述了这一点，多年来我一直对教育改革人员说，嘿，你有这样的想法，即教师知道该怎么做。 你从哪里得到这个想法的？ 在过去的几年里，我一直对择校倡导者说同样的话。 嘿，你有这个想法，并且你刚才提到过，尼克。 噢，竞争会提升一切。 正确的。 等一下，你是不是在建议老师，想想汉娜·妮可·琼斯或妮可·汉娜·琼斯在她女儿失败的学校中描述的那些老师，他们没有出现，没有教分数，没有阻止孩子们在自助餐厅里互相殴打。 你是说改变工资单上的签字人会突然让他们变得高效吗？ 你从哪里得到这个想法的？ 是的。 这是能力问题。 如果有很多人根本不知道如何做好这项工作，我不知道选择如何解决这个问题。 仅仅因为他们不再为公立学区工作，现在他们为天主教学校、选择的学校等工作。

Nick Gillespie（36:28） Well, the idea, though, is that if the school that they're working at Only gets money, you know, if the kids show up and teachers are actively doing a bad job or not showing up, then people will leave so that the people who run the school will make them more accountable. Right. I mean, that's the argument. 嗯，想法是，如果他们工作的学校只有在孩子来上学时才获得资金，而如果老师表现很差或者不来上课，那么人们就会离开，这样学校的管理者就会让他们承担更多责任。对吧。我是说，这就是这个论点。

Robert Pondiscio（36:50） Are you saying that is the argument that that's kind of a leap of faith at this point? Thank you. That's exactly right. It is the argument. And it's not unpersuasive because I do. Again, I'm a choice person, so I think it will have a good effect. But it doesn't create competence. You know, yeah. And then we can spend another hour talking about, you know, how we train teachers, how we train administrators on and on. But my caution to the school choice folks is don't assume competence. 你是说，到这一点为止，这个论点有点像是一种信仰飞跃吗？谢谢。完全正确。这就是论点。它并非毫无说服力，因为我确实是。再说一次，我是一个支持选择的人，所以我认为它会有好的效果。但它不会创造能力。你知道的，是的。然后我们可以再花一个小时讨论，我们如何培训教师，如何培训管理人员，诸如此类。但是我对学校选择的支持者的提醒是，不要假设能力。

Nick Gillespie（37:18） Don't assume that the teachers are talented, that they're, you know, being held up by, you know, bureaucrats and teachers unions and they're just waiting to be excellent in these new circumstances. I see no evidence of that. Let's talk briefly about Zoram Mamdani, the mayor of New York. He appointed a school chancellor earlier this year when he took off as Kumar Samuels. In the discussion in the lead up to the election of Mamdani as a mayor and whatnot, there was a lot of discussion about whether or not gifted and talented programs would be kept or they've already in many ways been dismantled, whether or not competitive entrance high schools, which We're long one of the gems of New York. I mean, like if your kid went to Brooklyn Tech or Bronx Science, as you mentioned, or Stuyvesant, that was, you know, you were getting a better education than most people at, you know, prep schools that are so fancy. Most people don't even know what, you know, where they are or who they serve. Do you have a take on Mamdani's education policy or Samuel's as school chairperson? 不要以为老师们很有才华，你知道，他们被官僚和教师工会所阻碍，他们只是在等待在这些新环境中表现出色。 我没有看到任何证据。 我们先简单谈谈纽约市市长佐拉姆·马姆达尼(Zoram Mamdani)。 今年早些时候，他以库马尔·塞缪尔斯 (Kumar Samuels) 的名义任命了一名学校校长。 在马姆达尼当选市长之类的讨论中，有很多关于是否保留天才项目的讨论，或者这些项目已经在很多方面被废除，是否有竞争性的入学高中，而这些学校长期以来一直是纽约的瑰宝之一。 我的意思是，就像您提到的，如果您的孩子去了布鲁克林理工学院或布朗克斯科学学院，或者史岱文森学院，那么您会比大多数人在非常高档的预科学校接受更好的教育。 大多数人甚至不知道他们在哪里或为谁服务。 您对马姆达尼的教育政策或塞缪尔作为学校主席的教育政策有何看法？

Robert Pondiscio（38:21） I don't know the chancellor at all. And I'm indifferent to Mayor Mamdani, but I'm going to give him credit. And this is something I don't say a lot. The number one issue that concerned me as a former New York City public school teacher for the last 25 years has been literacy and reading. For a generation, we failed to educate kids to proficient rates of literacy because of the way we taught reading or didn't teach reading. So under his predecessor, New York City threw out the work of Lucy Calkins and adopted three different more structured reading programs under a program called NYC Reads. And my biggest fear in the last mayoral election, because everybody comes in new, they want to do something new. I remember saying, I think I may have written an op-ed for the New York Post about this, saying like, no matter what you do, you got to say this literacy program. You can't throw that away. And God bless him, he hasn't. And I can't say this more strongly enough since I've been talking about teacher competence. If you want to create teacher competence, you can't change the curriculum every 20 minutes. You got to pick a program and you got to stick with it. 我根本不认识校长。 我对马姆达尼市长漠不关心，但我会信任他。 这是我不常说的事情。 作为一名前纽约市公立学校教师，过去 25 年里我关心的首要问题是识字和阅读。 在一代人的时间里，由于我们教阅读或不教阅读的方式，我们未能教育孩子们达到熟练的识字率。 因此，在他的前任的领导下，纽约市抛弃了露西·卡尔金斯的作品，并在一个名为“NYC Reads”的项目下采用了三种不同的更具结构化的阅读项目。 我最担心的是上次市长选举，因为每个人都是新来的，他们想做一些新的事情。 我记得我说过，我想我可能已经为《纽约邮报》写了一篇关于此事的专栏文章，说的是，无论你做什么，你都必须说这个扫盲计划。 你不能把它扔掉。 上帝保佑他，他没有。 自从我一直在谈论教师能力以来，我无法更强烈地表达这一点。 如果你想培养教师能力，你不能每 20 分钟就改变一次课程。 你必须选择一个计划并坚持下去。

Nick Gillespie（39:36） Yeah, but that's, I mean, next to the military-industrial complex, right? Probably the K-12 curriculum complex. They need to change everything every couple of minutes in order to, like, get big new orders, right? I mean, I don't know if it's... 是的，但那是，我的意思是，和军工复合体相比，对吧？可能是 K-12 课程复合体。他们需要每隔几分钟就改变一切，以便获得大笔新订单，对吧？我的意思是，我不知道是不是……

Robert Pondiscio（39:49） Well, that and teachers are also expected to create their own. I just described how I was expected in the South Bronx, which is a crazy use of time. So, for... Anything else about Mamdani, I'm going to give him credit and his chancellor for sticking with NYC Reads because if we're going to change outcomes, that's how you got to do it. 嗯，还有老师们也被期望自己去创造。我刚才描述的是我在南布朗克斯被期望的情况，这真是对时间的疯狂使用。所以，对于……关于曼达尼的其他事情，我要给他和他的校长一些认可，因为他们坚持了纽约市阅读计划，如果我们要改变结果，这就是你必须去做的方式。

Nick Gillespie（40:10） Maybe this is a key into how did ed reform lose its nerve or why did things change? But I'm not actually certain how I learned to read. I learned to read pretty well and I continue to read virtually every day, every hour of every day that I'm awake. And I know that I, you know, this, I was, you know, in basically in K through 12, mostly in the 1970s. 也许这是一个关键，可以理解教育改革如何失去勇气，或者为什么事情会改变？但我实际上不确定自己是怎么学会阅读的。我学会阅读相当好，而且我几乎每天都在阅读，每天清醒的时候每小时都在阅读。我知道我，你知道，这个，我基本上是在从幼儿园到 12 年级期间，主要是在 1970 年代。

Robert Pondiscio（40:36） You know, I learned with phonics along with, I'm sure, you know, just some kind of whole language you're identifying. I think we had like the C. Dick Run type, you know, readers and all of that kind of stuff. I know what a schwa looks like. I don't know really what it means. Yeah. Was that a pedagogical breakthrough that allowed people born after World War II to be better readers? And if so, how did my parents, my father went to New York schools in the 1920s and 30s, how did he learn to read and how was that different than how I did? And if how I learned was working, why would anybody mess with that? Nick Gillespie Wow, another great question. Look, again, we're the same age. I don't think I remember any explicit reading instruction at all past, say, first grade. The bromide of first you learn to read, then you read to learn was overstated, but basically true. Look, I think you know this about me. I'm an unapologetic disciple of a guy named E.D. Hirsch Jr. who wrote cultural literacy 40 years ago and then founded the Core Knowledge Foundation. His vision of education is exactly what you just described. In other words, I remember learning history and geography and science and art and music in elementary school. I don't remember explicit reading instruction. So one of the other mistakes we've made, and we alluded to this in terms of letting the testing tail wag the dog, is when you tell teachers in schools, hey, everything we're gonna judge you by is basically based on math and reading and that's it, you're creating Hersch's insight, and I think it's backed by cognitive science, is that it's not just phonics. Reading is not just a skill where there's 26 letters and I learned how to decode and now I've learned how to read. His point about reading comprehension, and this was in his book, Cultural Literacy, 你知道，我学习了自然拼读法，我确信，你知道，你正在识别某种完整的语言。 我想我们有像 C.迪克·朗（C. Dick Run）这样的人，你知道，读者和所有类似的东西。 我知道施瓦是什么样子。 我真的不知道这意味着什么。 是的。 这是一种教学上的突破，让二战后出生的人成为更好的阅读者吗？ 如果是这样，我的父母、我的父亲在 1920 年代和 30 年代是如何去纽约的学校的，他是如何学习阅读的，这与我的方式有何不同？ 如果我的学习方法有效，为什么有人会搞砸呢？ 尼克·吉莱斯皮 哇，又一个好问题。 再说一遍，我们同龄。 我想我不记得过去有任何明确的阅读指导，比如说一年级。 首先你学会阅读，然后你通过阅读来学习这句老话虽然言过其实，但基本上是正确的。 听着，我想你了解我这一点。 我是一个名叫 E.D. 的人的毫无歉意的弟子。 小赫希 (Hirsch Jr.) 40 年前撰写了《文化素养》，随后创立了核心知识基金会。 他的教育理念正是你刚才所描述的。 换句话说，我记得在小学时学习了历史、地理、科学、艺术和音乐。 我不记得明确的阅读说明。 所以我们犯的其他错误之一，我们提到过让测试尾巴摇狗，就是当你告诉学校的老师，嘿，我们评判你的一切基本上都是基于数学和阅读，就是这样，你正在创造赫希的洞察力，我认为它得到了认知科学的支持，那就是它不仅仅是语音。 阅读不仅仅是一项有 26 个字母的技能，我学会了如何解码，现在我已经学会了如何阅读。 他关于阅读理解的观点，在他的书《文化素养》中，

Robert Pondiscio（42:55） Is everything that speakers and readers produce, they make assumptions about their audiences, that there'll be a common background knowledge and vocabulary that they'll all have. So when a school throws out history and science and art and music to focus on just phonics and just technical skills of reading comprehension, well, they're taking the time away from the stuff that actually does create reading comprehension. Right. So Hersh is right. The good news is I think there's something you're hearing a lot about now, a science of reading movement in this country. And it's good, but we are somewhat at risk of overdoing it with phonics because we do still have this idea that, oh, and you alluded to before, don't do whole language, do phonics. Well, that's how you get kids to the starting line. It's what we call decoding, the ability to look at words and turn them into language. But that, again, is the starting line. Where you get reading comprehension is building that background knowledge. So what schools need to do is to offer kids a rich, comprehensive education across the curriculum, not just reading, not just math, but all the subject matter. 演讲者和读者所创造的一切，他们都会对听众做出假设，他们都会有共同的背景知识和词汇。 因此，当一所学校抛弃历史、科学、艺术和音乐，而只专注于自然拼读和阅读理解的技术技能时，那么，他们就在浪费时间在真正创造阅读理解的东西上。 正确的。 所以赫什是对的。 好消息是，我认为您现在经常听到这样的事情，即这个国家的阅读科学运动。 这很好，但我们在自然拼读方面存在着过度的风险，因为我们仍然有这样的想法，哦，你之前提到过，不要做整个语言，做自然拼读。 嗯，这就是让孩子们站在起跑线上的方法。 这就是我们所说的解码，即查看单词并将其转化为语言的能力。 但这又是起跑线。 你获得阅读理解的地方就是建立背景知识。 所以学校需要做的是为孩子们提供丰富、全面的跨课程教育，不仅仅是阅读，不仅仅是数学，而是所有科目。

Nick Gillespie（44:02） And I, you know, if memory serves, and maybe you just mentioned, but Hirsch's cultural literacy book came out, what, like 87 or 88? It was 87, that's right. Yeah. And so what that what that suggests is even by then in our youth, you know. People no longer, there was no canon. I mean, when I went to grad school for literary studies, everybody was talking about canon revision and other people were saying like, oh, you know, we need core books that we all, you know, read in common first and then you go on. So this has been going on for a very long time. How do you get back to canon? You know, how do you get back to a curriculum which is packed not just with skills, but also with particular things in it in a way that reflects the, you know, and is it the parents who are sending their kids to the school? Is it the taxpayers who are funding the school? You know, I mentioned I went to Catholic school. And as a result, like I learned a very bizarre, idiosyncratic kind of weird conspiratorial American history, which, you know, every year we would spend six months learning about the the Spanish and French explorers of the New World because they were Catholic. And then we ran out of time and every year we would start over again. Like so I never got to this. We never studied the Civil War because we couldn't even get to the Revolutionary War most years. Seems like it turned out okay. Yeah, well, you know, I don't know. But yeah, you know, I mean, I know how to read. I don't do math very well. But I guess what I'm getting at then, if we're looking to that, which I think is very powerful and attractive, and I say this as somebody with a nine-and-a-half-month-old kid who's going to be going to school, like, I want them to learn how to do math and learn how to read, but then I want them to also b 我，你知道，如果没记错的话，也许你刚才提到过，赫希的文化素养书出版了，什么，比如 87 或 88？ 是 87，没错。 是的。 所以，这表明即使在我们年轻的时候，你也知道。 人们不再存在，经典也不再存在。 我的意思是，当我进入文学研究研究生院时，每个人都在谈论经典修订，其他人则说，哦，你知道，我们需要我们大家首先共同阅读的核心书籍，然后再继续。 所以这种情况已经持续了很长时间。 怎么回到佳能？ 你知道，你如何回到一个不仅包含技能，而且还包含特定内容的课程，以反映，你知道，是送孩子上学的父母吗？ 学校的经费是纳税人提供的吗？ 你知道，我提到过我上过天主教学校。 结果，就像我学到了一种非常奇怪、怪异的美国阴谋历史，你知道，每年我们都会花六个月的时间了解新世界的西班牙和法国探险家，因为他们是天主教徒。 然后我们就没有时间了，每年我们都会重新开始。 就像这样我从来没有做到这一点。 我们从未研究过内战，因为大多数时候我们甚至无法了解革命战争。 看来结果还好。 是的，好吧，你知道，我不知道。 但是，是的，你知道，我的意思是，我知道如何阅读。 我数学学得不太好。 但我想，如果我们关注这一点，我认为这是非常强大和有吸引力的，我是作为一个有一个九个半月大的孩子即将上学的人这样说的，就像，我希望他们学习如何做数学和学习如何阅读，但随后我希望他们也

Robert Pondiscio（46:08） And we cannot allow teachers, and again, I'm not being a teacher basher, it's just unfair. When I was being asked as a fifth grade teacher at a low-performing school in the South Bronx, being told, well, you're the best person to know what the children need to learn. 我们不能允许教师，再说一次，我不是在抨击教师，这只是非常不公平。当我作为南布朗克斯一所低绩效学校的五年级教师被问及问题时，被告知，‘好吧，你是最了解孩子需要学习什么的人。’

Nick Gillespie（46:23） I can imagine you being in an operating room and on your first day, here's the scalpel. You know what to do. You're the doctor. 我可以想象你在手术室里，在你的第一天，这里有手术刀。你知道该做什么。你是医生。

Robert Pondiscio（46:31） Well, that's right. In other words, I should not have been tasked with that. I don't want to make that decision. Right. And look, this is not an easy answer because we don't have a national system in this country. We don't even have 50 states. We've got, I think, what, 100,000 school districts? 嗯，那是对的。换句话说，我本不应该被分配那个任务。我不想做那个决定。对。而且你看，这不是一个简单的答案，因为我们这个国家没有一个全国性的系统。我们甚至没有 50 个州。我想，我们有啥，对吧，十万个学区？

Nick Gillespie（46:47） Yeah, I think it's like 100,000 or 110,000. And that's down. It was much more than that in like 1950, too. Yeah. So, I mean, we're at a tight moment for school districts and it's virtually infinite. 是的，我认为大约是 100,000 或 110,000。而且这个数字在下降。在 1950 年左右，这个数字还要高得多。是的。所以，我的意思是，我们正处于学区的紧张时期，而且它几乎是无限的。

Robert Pondiscio（47:00） Yes, I've been lately looking, I mentioned Houston, which I've been spending time at as a good model. I've also been looking at England, which again, it's a little of apples to oranges because they do have a national curriculum and they train teachers differently. But England has done remarkably well in the last 10 or 15 years at raising their performance in international comparisons. And typically we're not persuaded by that. We think, oh, they speak different languages, but this is England. They speak the same language as us. It's hard for us to follow their model because we don't have a national system or national curriculum. But there's no reason that a Florida, a Texas, an Arizona couldn't, because states do have control over curriculum, over reading lists, et cetera. There's no reason that a state could not follow England's example. And my prediction is if a state does, then 10 years from now, that state will be the number one state in this country. Right. 是的，最近我一直在观察，我提到了休斯顿，我在那里花了一些时间，认为它是一个很好的榜样。我还在关注英国，不过这又有点像苹果和橘子，因为他们确实有国家课程，而且教师培训方式也不同。但在过去 10 到 15 年里，英国在国际比较中的成绩显著提高，表现非常出色。通常我们不会被这些说服。我们会想，哦，他们说的是不同的语言，但这是英国。他们和我们说的是同一种语言。我们很难跟随他们的模式，因为我们没有国家系统或国家课程。但没有理由佛罗里达、德克萨斯或亚利桑那做不到，因为各州确实可以控制课程、阅读书目等。没有理由一个州不能效仿英国的例子。我的预测是，如果某个州照此做，那么十年后，这个州将成为美国第一的州。

Nick Gillespie（47:55） But I mean, doesn't Texas, for example, don't they famously have like a centralized book purchase, textbook purchasing consortium? You know, I mean, I guess I'm pushing back on that. I understand what you're saying. And part of that seems attractive. And then it's also, well, I, you know, a kid in Houston is, you know, going, you know, the people there might want him to learn something radically different than people in El Paso or Abilene. Right. And. You know, how do you, you know, how do you, how do you respect that difference without things like never, you know, people never learning from each other's mistakes, I guess. 但是我的意思是，例如德克萨斯州，他们不就是以集中采购教材著名吗？你知道，我的意思是，我想说我有点不同意见。我理解你在说什么，这部分看起来确实很有吸引力。然后还有，我知道，在休斯顿的孩子，那里的人可能希望他学习的东西和埃尔帕索或阿比林的人 radically 不一样。对吧。你知道，你如何去尊重这种差异呢，而又不会让人们完全学不到彼此的教训，我想。

Robert Pondiscio（48:36） I've made this argument for two decades now. I want people to understand how language works, how reading comprehension works, how you and I can have this conversation that we don't need to explain what we mean. We do, you know, we're working with the same basic body of knowledge, right? Once you understand how language proficiency works, then suddenly you understand why curriculum is important and why, hey, especially if you're a low-income kid, especially if you're an immigrant kid, hey, there's stuff that readers and speakers are going to assume that you know. And you're not going to be fully proficient in English if you don't. I can't make that go away, Nick. I can't make that change for reasons of, oh, we need to honor different cultures and different backgrounds, etc. Either we have to take seriously the idea of preparing kids for adult success or not. So that's why I want parents and teachers and administrators to understand how language proficiency works. Because once you understand it, you may have to make uncomfortable decisions, but it's almost inevitable. Because otherwise, and this can go back to Nikole Hannah-Jones, if all you're doing is preparing kids for knowledge of their own culture, well, then you're almost imposing. I'm not even going to say almost. You are. You're imposing a form of illiteracy on children. 我已经提出这个论点二十年了。 我希望人们了解语言是如何运作的，阅读理解是如何运作的，以及你和我如何能够进行这样的对话，而我们不需要解释我们的意思。 你知道，我们确实在使用相同的基本知识体系，对吧？ 一旦你理解了语言能力是如何运作的，你就会突然明白为什么课程很重要，为什么，嘿，特别是如果你是一个低收入的孩子，特别是如果你是一个移民孩子，嘿，有些东西读者和演讲者会假设你知道。 如果你不这样做，你就不会完全精通英语。 我无法让它消失，尼克。 我不能做出这样的改变，因为，哦，我们需要尊重不同的文化和不同的背景等等。我们要么必须认真对待让孩子为成人成功做好准备的想法。 这就是为什么我希望家长、老师和管理人员了解语言能力是如何发挥作用的。 因为一旦你理解了它，你可能不得不做出不舒服的决定，但这几乎是不可避免的。 因为否则的话，这可以追溯到妮可·汉娜·琼斯，如果你所做的只是让孩子们了解他们自己的文化，那么你就几乎是强人所难了。 我什至不会说几乎。 你是。 你正在把某种形式的文盲强加给孩子们。

Nick Gillespie（50:00） I'll end on this, I think, you know, point of disagreement, perhaps, like we might, there might be a very good way, a clearly better way to learn how to read. But then that question of once you read or as you're reading, what are the facts? What are the books? What are the texts that you read? That's, you know, going to be open to a much different discussion. 我想我会以这一点结束，你知道，可能是，一个分歧点，也许，我们可能，可能有一个非常好的方法，一个明显更好的方法来学习如何阅读。但随后出现的问题是，一旦你阅读或者在阅读时，你阅读的事实是什么？你阅读的书籍是什么？你阅读的文本是什么？那是，你知道，将会开放一个完全不同的讨论。

Robert Pondiscio（50:23） I don't think we're going to disagree because, you know, again, by training and interest, I'm an elementary educator. You got to get kids to the starting line. So to my mind, K through five education, maybe K through eight ought to be pretty much the same across states, across districts. If you want to differentiate in high school, go nuts. That's fine. But you got to get kids, as I keep saying, to the starting line before they can take advantage of those differences. 我认为我们不会有分歧，因为，你知道，通过培训和兴趣，我本身是一名小学教育工作者。你必须让孩子们达到起跑线。所以在我看来，幼儿园到五年级的教育，或者幼儿园到八年级的教育，应该在各州、各学区基本相同。如果你想在高中阶段有所差异，那就随意吧，这没问题。但正如我一直说的，你必须让孩子们达到起跑线，然后他们才能利用那些差异。

Nick Gillespie（50:48） Yeah. All right. Well, I think we're going to leave it there. Robert Pondisio of AEI, of How the Other Half Learns, and of the excellent subsect of Next 30 Years. Thank you for talking to us. Thanks, Nick. Enjoyed it. 是的。好吧。我想我们就到这里吧。AEI 的 Robert Pondisio，《另一半如何学习》的作者，以及《未来 30 年的优秀子版块》的成员。感谢你接受我们的采访。谢谢你，Nick。我很享受这次采访。