变色龙、女同酒吧与《搏击俱乐部》：Reason《Freed Up》第 44 期谈佩尔托拉丑闻、择校与监狱史
Reason 的自由意志主义周播《Freed Up》第 44 期，两位编辑用同一套判断处理五条有原文可查的新闻：佩尔托拉的丑闻、一场有原文的「自由意志主义之死」之争、医学院招生争议、一篇择校长文与一份监狱史封面报道，中间夹着 15 分钟重看《搏击俱乐部》；文末附本期完整中英双语逐字稿。
《Reason》的《Freed Up》是一档每周更新的自由意志主义闲聊节目，官方把它介绍成「从无休止的末日滑动里喘一口气」：两位 Reason 编辑坐在麦克风前，把这一周的新闻一条条翻出来，插科打诨，偶尔真的吵起来。这一期是第 44 期，2026 年 9 月 24 日上线，全长 1 小时 14 分 30 秒，两位主讲是罗比·索夫（Robby Soave）与克里斯蒂安·布里奇吉（Christian Britschgi）1。
节目按时间分成八段：一位民主党参议员候选人被前下属爆料（00:00）、一家只让顾客戴口罩的女同酒吧（11:51）、一场关于「自由意志主义死没死」的阵营内战（20:05）、医学院招生里的种族争议（31:36）、一篇关于择校的长文（35:12）、重看《搏击俱乐部》（42:40）、《黑客帝国》与 1999 年那批电影（58:00）、以及美国监狱史（1:07:40）1。
它值得单独写一篇，理由不在观点而在材料：八段里有五段直接挂在这一周刚发表、可以点开原文核对的文本上——一篇《纽约时报》的调查报道、一家酒吧的口罩新规、一篇《旁观者》上的文章和一篇公开反驳、一份司法部的认定、一篇《纽约时报杂志》的长文。收听者最省事的用法，是先把摘要读完，再决定是去读那几篇原文，还是花 74 分钟听两个编辑拿它们开玩笑。本期官方完整音频、官方视频都在，文末附本期完整的中英双语逐字转录稿。
先记住三件事
一、丑闻的主角不是「变色龙」，是竞选团队本身。 《纽约时报》9 月 23 日的调查报道说，正在竞选阿拉斯加联邦参议员席位的民主党人玛丽·佩尔托拉（Mary Peltola）在办公室和竞选团队里多次情绪失控，多位前下属以匿名方式描述了她的用词与做法2。节目抓住的却是报道里最琐碎的一处：她曾请一位下属帮忙喂她的宠物变色龙。第二天她在市政厅活动结束时回避了记者提问3。
二、「自由意志主义之死」是一场有原文的争论。 这个词来自《旁观者》杂志美国版 9 月 28 日一期上 Daniel McCarthy 的文章《自由意志主义之死》4。索夫在 9 月 22 日写了一篇公开反驳，论点很直接：自由意志主义作为一种政党力量确实塌了，但它的政策主张正在被两党分头执行5。
三、监狱那一段有正式出处。 节目说的是 Reason 十月号封面报道，由 C.J. Ciaramella 写的五部长文《美国监狱实验》，9 月 8 日上线6。两位主播聊到的东西——宾夕法尼亚的贵格会、单独监禁、用电刑逼供的曲柄电话——都能在原文里找到对应段落。
两位主播与这档节目的位置
索夫与布里奇吉都是 Reason 的编辑，各自还写独立专栏（索夫的叫 Free Media，布里奇吉的叫 Rent Free）。这个组合固定，上一期（第 43 期）就是两人讲有效利他主义为什么被特朗普政府当成了 AI 政策上的靶子。所以第 44 期的定位很清楚：它不是访谈，没有嘉宾，是一份「两个自己人对着本周新闻做的观点对谈」。
两人的分工在这期里也看得见：索夫更常做的是把一件小事讲成政治哲学问题，布里奇吉更常做的是把它讲成一个制度问题。判断哪句话是谁说的，后面逐字稿里标注得很细；需要提醒的是，两人音色接近，机器声纹在极短的快速接话处可能把一句话归错人，正文中凡涉及「谁主张什么」的地方，都以能由节目内容确证的表述为准。
几个先弄明白的词
自由意志主义（libertarianism）：一套以个人自由、有限政府、自由市场为核心的主张，在美国政治光谱里既不属于民主党也不属于共和党。本期第三段的整场争论都建立在这个词的两种含义上——作为一场「政治运动」，它是否还活着；作为一堆「政策主张」，它是否还在被采用。
哈奇法（Hatch Act）：1939 年通过的联邦法律，限制联邦雇员参与某些政治活动7。节目第一段拿国会下属的私人差事开玩笑，最后一句就是「如果有哈奇法的问题，请寄到这里」——把一个法律概念当成笑话的收尾。
Title VI 与 2023 年最高法院裁决：1964 年《民权法》第六章禁止接受联邦资金的机构基于种族歧视。2023 年最高法院在平权法案案中判定高校招生不得以种族为考虑因素。本期第四段讨论的司法部认定，依据就是这两条8。
择校（school choice）：让家长可以不按学区把子女送进别的公立学校、特许学校或私立学校，通常配套教育券或教育储蓄账户。这是本期第五段的争论焦点。
全国保守主义（NatCon）：美国右翼内部主张更强国家、更少自由市场色彩的一支，与自由意志主义在贸易、产业政策和科技监管上分歧明显。本期第三段里，两人用它来指 Daniel McCarthy 所在的那一边。
佩尔托拉与那只变色龙（00:00–11:51）
《纽约时报》那篇报道的信息量集中在前下属的匿名叙述上：情绪失控、带侮辱性的用词、以及一个从阿拉斯加远程管理华盛顿办公室的团队。节目没有去讨论这些指控本身是否成立，而是立刻转向报道里最容易被当成笑料的一段——佩尔托拉曾让下属帮忙喂她的宠物变色龙2。
让人意外的是两人在这件事上的判断是相反的：布里奇吉认为，一个从阿拉斯加通勤到华盛顿的议员请助理照看宠物，并不过分；索夫则顺势做了一场「哪些私事可以派给下属」的测验，把干洗、喂考拉、喂长颈鹿、喂剑齿虎一路摆到「陪议员儿子去高中毕业舞会」。两人一路改口，最后落在一个他们自己都觉得好笑的结论上：越费劲的私事越不该派，但只要把场景换到「一个剑齿虎到处都是的平行宇宙」，这件事就又可以说得过去。
围绕这篇报道的争论很快分成两条线。一条是佩尔托拉本人的回应：她的竞选团队否认了部分描述，她本人则批评《纽约时报》，把自己在团队面前的失态归因于失去丈夫之后的悲痛9。另一条是《大西洋月刊》的回应文章，它认为这篇报道与其说在写佩尔托拉，不如说在写她那些年轻下属的自我感觉10。节目两条都没有展开，它只保留了最适合拿来开玩笑的那一半。
把这一段放回选举背景会更清楚：阿拉斯加是民主党今年少数有机会翻转的参议院席位之一，佩尔托拉要挑战的是共和党现任参议员丹·沙利文（Dan Sullivan）。也就是说，一条关于「谁该去喂变色龙」的闲聊，落点其实是一个摇摆州竞选的稳定度。
这一段是整期最松的部分，价值不在观点，而在它示范了这档节目的边界：对一件事的判断标准，他们愿意现场推翻重来。
一家只让顾客戴口罩的女同酒吧（11:51–20:05）
这一段的原始材料是马萨诸塞州格林菲尔德（Greenfield）一家叫 Last Ditch 的女同酒吧。它一直要求顾客全程佩戴 KN95 或更高级别的口罩，为的是照顾免疫功能受损的常客；今年 8 月底，酒吧为求生存放宽了规定，改成每周有一晚可以不戴口罩，随后遭到猛烈的网络攻击，被指控是排斥残障人士1112。
两人的立场在这段里比前一段一致得多：索夫说自己对坚持戴口罩的人已经宽容得多，因为那不再是全社会层面的强制；布里奇吉则给了酒吧一个很具体的理由辩护——酒吧本来就是给各种奇怪的小群体留的地方，一群神经紧张的人想有个属于自己的空间，这件事本身没什么可嘲笑的。
这一段也是全期最容易被误读的一段：他们拿口罩的自相矛盾（戴着口罩怎么喝酒、所谓「可以插吸管的阀门」）开了很久的玩笑，但玩笑的落点仍然是「这属于私人的怪癖，不是公共强制」。把原始报道打开，事件的形状比节目里讲的更具体。Last Ditch 的规矩原本是「全程佩戴 KN95 或更高级别的口罩」；酒吧改成每周有一晚可以不戴，理由是戴口罩的规矩让生意撑不下去——按《自由新闻报》的说法，是因为戴着口罩根本没法喝酒13。反弹来自酒吧原本服务的那个群体：有人指责它把免疫功能受损的人排除在酷儿空间之外，酒吧一度濒临被舆论赶出小镇12。
所以这是一个「小群体内部的排他性」问题，而不是公共卫生政策问题：一间为特定人群开的店，能不能决定自己服务谁、按什么规矩服务。两位主播的同情留在酒吧这一侧，正是因为他们把它读成后者。
「自由意志主义之死」之争（20:05–31:36）
第三段是全期信息密度最高的一段，因为它有两份可以对照的原文。Daniel McCarthy 的文章认为，自由意志主义作为一种政治力量已经死掉，而且它带来的那些「自由」——赌博、色情、消费主义——并没有填上人精神上的空洞4。
索夫的反驳分两层。第一层承认事实：作为一场党派运动，自由意志主义确实塌了，自由党自己把候选人搞掉了，共和党里也没有一个成气候的自由意志主义派系。第二层反驳结论：在特朗普执政时期最重要的政策领域——科技与人工智能——他给出的做法反而是自由意志主义的，无论数据中心、技术监管还是对产业的态度，用的都是里根和撒切尔的语言。索夫由此提出一个更一般的判断：一场政治运动真正赢了的样子，是它的主张变成共识、于是没人再需要它这个旗号5。
布里奇吉在这一段补了另一层：真正塌掉的不是自由意志主义，而是那种老式共和党人——支持自由市场与自由贸易、同时主张对外干预、对移民宽容、社会议题保守。两人在这一点上达成一致，并且都对 McCarthy 文章里的得意口气表示不满：特朗普既不是自由意志主义者，也不是反自由意志主义者，他只是没有意识形态，所以「你们输了、我们赢了」这种话，在他们听来是空的。
索夫在节目里把时间线拉得更长，这一段也值得单独记住。2008 年前后有一组同时出现的现象：罗恩·保罗的竞选、茶党运动、大学里冒出来的自由意志主义学生组织，以及一个看起来正在变得不那么干预主义、对移民更宽容的共和党。如果把那条轨迹外推，今天本该有更多像兰德尔·保罗那样的议员。实际发生的是：那些人大多离开了政治，兰德尔·保罗成了唯一一个靠精明的政治手腕留在参议院继续谈自由意志主义议题的人，自由党则在几场选举之后因为内部管理问题散了架。
两人对另一边的判断同样不留情面。他们认为 McCarthy 所在的全国保守主义这一支也没有赢下什么：内部在外交政策上分裂，特朗普在中东的动作走的是小布什时期那一套，而他们眼中这一派最响的几个声音正在破坏保守派运动本身。节目甚至把它比作 1792 年的法国革命者——以为自己打败了保皇党，却还没等到自己内部的清算。
这段里有一个值得记住的观察：两人都认为，激进主张先是变得激进，然后变成共识，然后就不再属于任何一派。这是他们对「一个运动赢了的标志」的完整表述。
医学院招生里的种族争议（31:36–35:12）
第四段的由头是司法部对加州大学旧金山分校（UCSF）医学院的认定：司法部认为该校在招生中长期以种族为考虑因素，让分数更高的白人与亚裔申请者落选，这种做法违反《民权法》第六章8。作出这一认定的是司法部负责民权事务的助理部长哈米特·迪隆（Harmeet Dhillon）。这已经不是第一次：此前司法部还对乔治·华盛顿大学医学院与加州大学洛杉矶分校医学院作出过类似认定。
布里奇吉支持这一方向，理由是他认为把「性格」「领导力」「沟通能力」当作录取标准本身没问题，但不能拿它们当种族的替身；如果这些软指标真的比分数重要，那么也应当有分数一般但软指标出色的白人与亚裔学生被录取。索夫则把话题拧到另一头：既然右翼这边有人主张按种族重新分配名额，那么同一套工具也会被用来针对别的群体——他点名的例子是《不受保护的阶层》一书的作者杰里米·卡尔（Jeremy Carl），后者曾在参议院提名听证会上被民主党参议员克里斯·墨菲问到「白人共同的东西到底是什么」，而这个在书里写过答案的人当场没有答上来14。
把这份认定放进司法部近半年的动作里看，它并不孤立。此前司法部已经对乔治·华盛顿大学医学院作出过类似认定，也在今年 5 月指控加州大学洛杉矶分校医学院歧视白人与亚裔申请者15。迪隆对这所旧金山学校的说法是：在这里，MCAT 分数与本科绩点被排到了种族后面。
节目没有停在「该不该告学校」上。索夫把问题往前推了一步：如果右翼接受「按群体给名额」这套工具，那么这套工具迟早会被用来针对别的群体，包括他们自己。这是这一段的真正落点，也是他们对同阵营的一种警告。
尼科尔·汉娜-琼斯与择校（35:12–42:40）
第五段的原始材料是《纽约时报杂志》9 月 20 日刊出的长文，作者尼科尔·汉娜-琼斯（Nikole Hannah-Jones）是《纽约时报》记者、1619 项目的主笔。文章讲的是她自己的女儿：她为了不参与「把好学校留给自己」的隔离，把女儿送进一所位于纽约市、以黑人学生和低收入家庭为主的公立学校，结果女儿在那所学校丢了几年学业，后来转到另一所更好的学校16。
两人对这篇文章的判断相当一致，也相当直接：他们喜欢这篇文章的坦诚，但认为作者只承认了一次个人失败，没有从中学到东西。理由是文章把问题归到「学校缺资源、家长不参与」上，而他们认为这篇文章自己提供的证据恰好相反——文章里那所后来转去的、成绩更好的学校，按生均经费算反而更低。两位主播由此把话题引回择校：如果一所学校明显不适合某个孩子，最直接的办法是让人有地方可去，而不是先修补整栋楼。这一段还带着一段关于教师薪酬的延伸讨论：他们主张给有效教师更高的报酬，而不是按年资自动加薪。
文章里最刺痛人的一处细节是女儿的问话：既然你知道那所学校不好，为什么还要送我去。汉娜-琼斯在文中承认这是她自己的失败，但她给出的诊断仍然是「那些学校缺资源、缺参与的家长」。两位主播正是从这里开始不同意的：他们认为这篇文章自己提供的材料指向另一个结论——决定一所学校好坏的，是学校内部怎么运转，而不是把更多钱倒进同一套运转方式里。布里奇吉由此讲到华盛顿特区公立学校 20 年来的变化，以及当年因为推动绩效工资、坚持纪律而与教师工会对抗的米歇尔·雷伊（Michelle Rhee）。
他们给出的替代方案也不激进：先让人有得选——开放注册、取消学区边界、允许公立特许学校——而不是先修好所有的楼。这一点和他们后面讲监狱时的态度一致：制度不会因为愿望变好，只会因为多了一条出口而变好。
需要说明的是，「好学校生均经费更低」这个说法出现在节目里，属于他们对文章的概括，不是新闻事实的独立陈述；把它当作他们的判断来读。
重看《搏击俱乐部》（42:40–58:00）
第六段是一次被安排的作业：上周节目结尾两人互派任务，各自重看 1999 年的《搏击俱乐部》，这一期交作业。
他们的评价结构很像影评人而不是政治评论员。先说好话：视觉与音效仍然成立，爱德华·诺顿与布拉德·皮特的表演、打斗的编排、主角那栋「像《圣诞夜惊魂》里的房子」都值得看。再说问题：两人都认为电影比它的名声更含糊——「反消费主义」的部分在片中不断被自我调侃，主角最终击败泰勒·德登（他自己的另一半人格），可与此同时那场炸掉信用卡数据大楼的恐怖计划却成功了，被当成一个美好结局来拍。
布里奇吉引用了影评人罗杰·伊伯特重看后的评语，大意是「我佩服它的技巧，越看越佩服；但越想越不佩服它的思想」。两人都同意，把「分裂人格」这个设定拿掉、让泰勒·德登真的是另一个人，反而会让结尾更有张力，因为那样才需要对「为什么要反对他」给出理由。
评论之外，这一段还留下了几个可以核对的细节。原著作者恰克·帕拉尼克（Chuck Palahniuk）是同性恋者，两人由此谈到电影里那些被压下去的同性情愫——包括那个吻手又被灼伤的镜头——并认为如果泰勒·德登真是另一个独立的人，这些线索会更有戏。
另一个更有意思的事实是中国大陆版的结局。在那版里，大楼爆炸前画面切黑，出现一行字幕：当局破获了恐怖阴谋，泰勒·德登被捕。帕拉尼克本人说过，这个被审查改出来的结局反而更接近他小说原来的写法17。两人对这个评价的兴趣明显大于对电影本身。
还有两个细节值得记住：片中那位第四频道记者由劳伦·桑切斯（Lauren Sánchez）出演，她当时是洛杉矶的地方新闻主播18；杰瑞德·莱托演的则是那个被打到毁容的金发配角。
《黑客帝国》与 1999 年（58:00–1:07:40)
第七段从《搏击俱乐部》滑到同年上映的《黑客帝国》与《办公空间》，三人都不是主角，主角是 1999 年这个年份。
他们把三片读成同一组焦虑的三个版本：办公隔间里的无聊、被隐藏起来的真实世界、以及靠暴力找回真实感。布里奇吉提到《黑客帝国》里最有趣的一处不是主角，而是饰演赛弗的乔·潘托里亚诺（Joe Pantoliano）——他见过真实世界之后要求回到矩阵里去，因为「我知道这块牛排不存在，但我不在乎」。这个角色让整部电影的立场变得不那么简单。
两人还指出一个巧合：这三部电影都在 9·11 之前两年上映，而它们的结局都包含一次针对大楼的袭击。节目由此说到 1990 年代那种「无聊但稳定」的生活为什么会让人窒息，以及今天这种窒息感被什么替代了——按他们的说法，是社交媒体上的持续争吵。
美国监狱史（1:07:40–1:14:30）
最后一段回落到 Reason 自己的封面报道。C.J. Ciaramella 的五部长文《美国监狱实验》把美国监狱史分成五段，从 1790 年代的「前监狱」一直写到今天的刑事司法改革，核心判断只有一句：这个国家始终没想清楚监狱到底是改造人的地方，还是把人堆起来的地方6。
两人转述的几件事值得记住。最早的监狱出自宾夕法尼亚的贵格会与启蒙思想家之手，本意是用「悔罪」取代欧洲式的公开处刑与鞭刑，结果发明了新的折磨方式：费城的东部州立监狱（1829 年启用）让囚犯 23 小时独处、编号代替姓名、在鞋匠台前度过刑期；纽约奥本监狱则在 1821 年试过更极端的完全隔离，几年之内就出现死亡与精神崩溃，被迫中止。节目里提到的「曲柄电话」是另一件事：报道记录了用改装的电话对囚犯施以电击的做法，一直延续到 1960 年代末。
这段历史的起点比多数人想得更体面。1787 年，本杰明·拉什（Benjamin Rush）在富兰克林家里提出「悔罪之家」的设想，主张用「身体的痛、劳动、警醒、独处、沉默」加上「清洁与简单饮食」把人改造成共和国的合格公民。1790 年费城的核桃街监狱第一次辟出 16 间隔离牢房，很快被各地效仿，又很快陷入拥挤、骚乱与纵火。1829 年启用的东部州立监狱把「独处」推到极致：造价 78 万美元，是当时全国最贵的建筑之一；囚犯被罩着头带进去，姓名换成编号，每天 23 小时独处，靠做鞋打发刑期；穹顶设计让中央岗楼的看守能听见任何一声低语，因此看守要穿羊毛袜。它同时还是个景点，1858 年有超过一万人买票参观。
纽约那边的试验更短也更惨：1821 年圣诞节，奥本监狱把 80 名囚犯关进只有一张床和一本《圣经》的完全隔离牢房，到 1823 年就不得不中止，其间有人死亡、有人精神失常，托克维尔与博蒙在 1831 年考察后写下的结论是：这种绝对的独处「不改造人，它杀人」。
他们也提到报道里的三种模式——独自做鞋的隔离制、穿着条纹囚服在工场劳动但不得交谈的沉默制、以及南方以囚犯为营利性奴隶劳工的做法——并给出一个不那么意识形态的结论：监狱不应当是酷刑，但它确实需要存在，因为总有一小部分人会伤害别人。他们顺带对「监狱废除主义者」表示了有限的同情：愿望可以理解，但那套「等到不再有犯罪」的设想本身不成立。
这一期值不值得听
如果你只关心一件事，直接跳：想了解佩尔托拉丑闻与那份《纽约时报》报道，听 00:00–11:51；想跟着一篇有原文的争论走完一遍论证，听 20:05–31:36；对择校议题感兴趣，听 35:12–42:40。第三段和第五段是这一期最经得起重听的部分，因为它们的对手文本都能在节目页面上找到出处。
至于《搏击俱乐部》那 15 分钟，它的价值更像一次示范：两个政治编辑如何在不谈政治的时候仍然用同一种方式判断一部电影。监狱史这一段则更像是给一篇长文做的口头书签，听完值得直接去读原文。
完整中英双语逐字转录稿
逐字稿说明：本稿由本期官方完整音频（74 分 30 秒）的机器识别结果整理而成，措辞与语序未作改动，仅对人名、产品名做了同音订正（如 Nikole Hannah-Jones、C.J. Ciaramella、Jeremy Carl、Joe Pantoliano 等），并已剔除识别器在无语音间隙生成的重复片段。按讲话人分段署名，时间轴每 10 分钟标注一次。需要说明的是，两位主播音色接近，机器声纹分离在两人极短的快速交替处可能把一句话归错人；本文已在能由节目内容确证的地方逐一改判（例如本期开篇「自由意志主义之死」之争中撰写反驳文章的 Robby Soave），但仍有少量一两句的现场应答可能标错，特此披露。
00:00 - 10:00
Christian Britschgi：
Okay. Thumbs up? I think we're a go. Yeah, whoa, okay. We were actually told by our handlers that we didn't need to have a lead story. We could just talk about our re-review of Fight Club. Yes. But I think that was a bad idea. Let's do some real news and then we will get back to Fight Club.中文：好的。竖起大拇指吗？我觉得我们可以开始了。是的，哇，好吧。我们的负责人实际上告诉我们不需要有一个主打故事。我们可以直接谈论我们对《搏击俱乐部》的重新评论。是的。但我认为那是个坏主意。让我们先做一些真正的新闻，然后再回到《搏击俱乐部》。
Robby Soave：
Okay, yeah, say some buzzwords. Well, nobody's talking about Trump anymore. Trump's dead is a buzzword. Yeah, okay. There was like reporting that right-wing podcasters don't ever talk about Trump anymore. It's just nobody wants to hear about it. He's fallen below the Bush line, they call it, where you're so unpopular, your own side,中文：好吧，是的，说一些流行词汇。嗯，现在没有人再谈论特朗普了。‘特朗普死了’是一句流行词。是的，好吧。有报道说右翼播客主持人再也不谈特朗普了。只是没人想听这个。他已经跌破了布什线，他们是这么称呼的，当你如此不受欢迎时，你自己这边的人，
Christian Britschgi：
the only thing they can do is just pretend you don't exist. So we're going to keep doing that because we shamelessly want higher and better ratings. Yeah. So, Dems in Disarray. No, there was actually a pretty funny story about Mary Peltola.中文：他们能做的唯一一件事就是假装你不存在。所以我们将继续这样做，因为我们无耻地想要更高更好的评分。是的。所以，民主党人混乱。不是，实际上有一个关于玛丽·佩尔托拉的相当有趣的故事。
Robby Soave：
She's running for Alaska Senate. Yeah. It was one of those, it's Amy Klobucharian of the, you might think, and you know, New York Times did her dirty here. You may think this is a nice old lady. Not, it's not true. We spoke to, you have no idea, how many former staffers of her granted total anonymity to bitch about their boss. And she made them do, well, she was overheard to use the word,中文：她正在竞选阿拉斯加州参议员。是的。这就是那种情况，你可能会觉得她是艾米·克洛布查尔型的人，你知道，《纽约时报》在这里对她很不公平。你可能以为她是个可爱的老太太。事实并非如此。我们采访了，你无法想象，有多少她的前工作人员在获得完全匿名的情况下抱怨他们的老板。而她让他们做的，嗯，她被无意中听到使用那个词，
Christian Britschgi：
No. And... Ugh. What a disaster. Faggot. No! Oh. These are some heavy hitters. Heavy hitters. She... Wait for this. She made a staff member...中文：不。而且......呃。真是一场灾难。娘们儿。不！哦。这些人真是大人物。大人物。她......等着瞧这个。她让一个员工......
Robby Soave：
I mean, she's commuting to DC from Alaska, which I don't know how good your geography is. Actually, it is really good. Yours is so good. Mine is quite good. Better than mine. Alaska is... Not near Washington, DC....is in America. Yeah. So she once asked a staffer if the staffer could feed her pet chameleon.中文：我的意思是，她从阿拉斯加通勤到华盛顿特区，我不知道你的地理知识怎么样。实际上，你的地理知识真的很好。你的很好。我的相当不错。比我的好。阿拉斯加……离华盛顿特区不近……在美国。是的。所以她曾经问过一位工作人员，那位工作人员是否能喂她的宠物变色龙。
Christian Britschgi：
Meatball. I want that job. Sign me up to be the chameleon. Feeding a chameleon is so much fun.中文：肉丸。我想要那份工作。让我成为变色龙吧。喂变色龙太有趣了。
Robby Soave：
Feed a little cricket, it does the. I think that's kind of disgusting. No, it's cool. I don't think I wanna do that. It's fucking cool. Yeah, you have a legislative director and you have a reptile director. Yeah, that's right.中文：喂一只小蟋蟀，它会动。我觉得那有点恶心。不，挺酷的。我不认为我想那样做。真他妈的酷。是的，你有一个立法主任，你还有一个爬行动物主任。是的，没错。
Christian Britschgi：
You gotta handle your reptiles. She's running for Senate or the Reptile House? Oh, I love the Reptile House. I like reptiles.中文：你得照顾好你的爬行动物。她是在竞选参议院还是爬行动物馆？哦，我喜欢爬行动物馆。我喜欢爬行动物。
Robby Soave：
I like snakes. I love snakes.中文：我喜欢蛇。我爱蛇。
Christian Britschgi：
I'm not disgusted by reptiles, but I feel no warmth to these cold-blooded monsters either. I love them. I love snakes. What's my favorite thing at the zoo? Elephants. I like a big, hulking mammal. Yeah, you like them big, meaty, and muscly. Elephants are pretty cool.中文：我对爬行动物并不厌恶，但我对这些冷血的怪物也没有任何温暖的感觉。我爱它们。我爱蛇。动物园里我最喜欢的是什么？大象。我喜欢又大又笨重的哺乳动物。是的，你喜欢它们又大又肉感，有肌肉。大象很酷。
Robby Soave：
At the DC Zoo, the elephants are a highlight, because they got a long way to run, like, throughout the zoo. They have a very large exhibit. Watching the meat is just so cool. They just keep eating.中文：在华盛顿特区动物园，大象是一个亮点，因为它们有很长的距离要跑，比如，整个动物园。它们有一个非常大的展区。看它们吃东西真的很酷。它们只是一直在吃。
Christian Britschgi：
Yeah. They're our friends, elephants, right? They are our friends. Until they rampage. Yeah.中文：是啊。他们是我们的朋友，大象，对吧？他们是我们的朋友。直到他们大发雷霆。是的。
Robby Soave：
They're a little b-beaty. Oh, they let us ride them. Elephants...中文：它们有点可爱。他们让我们骑它们。大象……
Christian Britschgi：
Very good animal. Yeah, there's something to be said just for large mammals, bears, et cetera. I like that at the Washington, D.C. Zoo, I love those stupid little monkeys, gold-tailed whatever things. Oh, yeah, yeah. They're cool looking. They're mischievous. They run around and they live on sloths. The sloths just hang there and they use the sloth like it's a hammock. The sloth doesn't care at all. Those are pretty good ones.中文：非常好的动物。是的，大型哺乳动物、熊等等确实有其可取之处。我喜欢华盛顿特区的动物园，我喜欢那些愚蠢的小猴子，金尾巴的什么东西。哦，是的，是的。它们看起来很酷。它们很调皮。它们四处奔跑，还依附在树懒身上。树懒就那样挂着，它们把树懒当作吊床一样。树懒根本不在乎。这些都是相当不错的动物。
Robby Soave：
That's great. Yeah. Curry dogs, things of that nature. Yeah, the DC Zoo, it's not the best zoo, but it's pretty good.中文：那太好了。是的。咖喱热狗，类似那样的东西。是的，华盛顿特区动物园，它不是最好的动物园，但相当不错。
Christian Britschgi：
And yeah, it's got a good great ape house. Got orangutans.中文：是的，这里有一个很棒的大猩猩馆。有红毛猩猩。
Robby Soave：
Yeah, I love those. I grew up in Detroit. The Detroit Zoo is very good. Has a great reptile house, great penguin exhibit. Yum. Some real all-stars there. We've totally lost the plot here. So Mary Peltola. Yeah, speaking of monsters. I mean, these stories are so stupid. Yeah. Like, I'm sorry, you can't, that is not an unreasonable thing to be asked by a staff member to feed your pet while you're commuting from Alaska to Washington, DC.中文：是的，我喜欢那些。我在底特律长大。底特律动物园非常棒。爬行动物馆很棒，企鹅展也很棒。好吃。那里有一些真正的明星动物。我们完全离题了。说到玛丽·佩尔托拉。是的，说到怪物。我是说，这些故事太愚蠢了。是的。抱歉，你不能，这并不是一个不合理的要求，让工作人员在你从阿拉斯加通勤到华盛顿特区时喂养你的宠物。
Christian Britschgi：
Right, yeah. I mean, I guess it is like a- Right? I don't think it's unreasonable at all. I mean, I guess it's like a personal benefit, I guess, but they're your assistants, right? Well, maybe you disagree. So I was gonna give you a little quiz here. Okay. Is this inappropriate to ask your staffer to do? Okay. Okay, are you ready? Yeah. Oh, Natalie can't stop talking to me. What's that? So you got somewhere else to be. It's just, it never ends. Okay, no, the quiz, the quiz. Okay, okay. So we're okay with feeding the pet chameleon. What about this? Getting your representatives dry cleaning. We'll start with an easy one.中文：对，对。我是说，我想它就像是一个——对吧？我一点也不觉得这不合理。我的意思是，我想它像是一种个人好处吧，但他们是你的助理，对吧？嗯，也许你不同意。所以我打算给你来一个小测验。好的。问你的员工做这个事合适吗？好的。准备好了吗？嗯。哦，娜塔莉一直跟我说个不停。怎么了？你还有别的地方要去。这只是，它永远也说不完。好的，不，测验，测验。好的，好的。所以我们同意喂饲变色龙宠物。那这个呢？帮你的代表拿干洗。我们从一个简单的开始。
Christian Britschgi：
Um, if we accept that the legislative staffer can do personal errands for you, and I guess that's actually, that's a little more business related because you might have to wear, you know, things for being on the floor or whatever. So yeah, okay, I would say yes. You say it's fine. Yeah, okay. Um. Hit me, hit me with another one. Feeding the representative's pet koala. Yeah, I mean, it would be hard to source elliptist leaves in Alaska. They have them. They have them. Let's say they have them. I think that is a little more borderline because, again, it doesn't really have anything to do with official business. And you are being paid by the taxpayer, but you do work for the congressman.中文：嗯，如果我们接受立法人员的助理可以为你处理私人事务，我想这实际上，这在某种程度上更偏向于与工作相关，因为你可能需要穿戴，比如说在会议厅上需要穿的服装之类的。所以，是的，好吧，我会说可以。你说没问题。是的，好吧。嗯，来，下一个。喂养议员的宠物考拉。是的，我的意思是在阿拉斯加获取桉树叶会很困难。他们有。他们有。假设他们有。我觉得这个有点灰色地带，因为，同样，这实际上和公务没有太大关系。而且你是拿纳税人的钱，但你是为国会议员工作的。
Christian Britschgi：
So I'll say it's borderline, but I wouldn't consider it a scandal. Okay. Another one. Another one. What if you were asked to feed the congressperson's pet giraffe? Ooh. Would that pose more... I mean, I get the giraffes are large, so... I just came up with random, some totally unrelated examples. Yeah. I mean, giraffes would require a lot of food, right? Well, it takes so long to reach their stomach, right? Do they have two stomachs? They have a stomach in their brain and a stomach in their belly. I think that's pretty true.中文：所以我会说这是边缘情况，但我不会认为这是丑闻。好的。再来一个。再来一个。如果有人让你喂国会议员的宠物长颈鹿呢？哦。那会带来更多的问题吗……我的意思是，我知道长颈鹿很大，所以……我只是随便想出了一些完全不相关的例子。是的。我的意思是，长颈鹿需要很多食物，对吧？嗯，食物到它们的胃要花很长时间，对吧？它们有两个胃吗？它们脑袋里有一个胃，肚子里有一个胃。我觉得这挺真实的。
Robby Soave：
I don't think that is. No, look it up. It's true. Yeah. I'll do research.中文：我不这么认为。不，查一下。是真的。是的。我会做研究。
Christian Britschgi：
Now you're the expert because you've been to the zoo twice. I think the more difficult the personal errand becomes, the less acceptable it is. And so, I would say-中文：现在你是专家了，因为你去过动物园两次。我觉得个人差事越困难，就越不可接受。所以，我想说——
Robby Soave：
Wow, we're losing you real quick here. Yeah, I would say giraffe is borderline, but probably dipping over into not acceptable. Well, let's see where you land- Depending on the actual tonnage of food the giraffe requires. Let's see where you land on this next one. You know, these are just some tasks that maybe you could be asked to do that I came up with.中文：哇，我们这里正在很快失去你。嗯，我会说长颈鹿有点边缘，但可能已经超出不可接受的范围了。好吧，让我们看看你的结果——取决于长颈鹿所需食物的实际吨位。我们看看你在下一个任务中的表现。你知道，这些只是一些我想到的你可能会被要求完成的任务。
Christian Britschgi：
Feeding a pet saber-toothed tiger. That sounds... Dangerous? Yes, but, well, you assume it would be in some sort of enclosure, right? Uh, yeah. And I guess— It's in the saber-toothed tiger enclosure. So this actually, I think, moves back into acceptable, because the saber-toothed tiger, that would be some sort of miracle of science if you had one. Yeah.中文：喂养一只宠物剑齿虎。听起来……危险？是的，但是，嗯，你会假设它会在某种围栏里，对吧？呃，是的。我想——它就在剑齿虎的围栏里。所以实际上，我认为这又回到了可以接受的范围，因为如果你真的有一只剑齿虎，那将是某种科学奇迹。是的。
Robby Soave：
And so— No, this isn't a world where saber-toothed tigers are common.中文：所以——不，这个世界并不是剑齿虎很常见的世界。
Christian Britschgi：
Oh, it—saber-toothed tigers are common. We switched universes now. I missed the transition. Okay, well if they're common, then I would say no. Only if they're uncommon. Well yeah, because then there would be a public interest in keeping this unicorn of a creature alive.中文：哦，它——剑齿虎很常见。我们现在换了宇宙。我错过了过渡。好吧，如果它们很常见，那么我会说不。只有在它们不常见时才算。嗯，是的，因为那样的话，公众才会有兴趣让这种独一无二的生物存活。
Robby Soave：
I see, I see, I see. No, no, no. This is a... Posit a universe exactly like ours, except there are saber-toothed tigers everywhere. What are you feeding the saber-toothed tiger?中文：我明白，我明白，我明白。不，不，不。这是一个……假设有一个和我们完全一样的宇宙，只是到处都是剑齿虎。你给剑齿虎喂的是什么？
Christian Britschgi：
Um... It only eats human flesh. Now that I would consider unethical. Yeah, okay, I see where I lost you there. Yeah, okay, is that, you got another one? Yes. Escorting your representative's son to his high school prom. That I would- Say if you're a female staffer. Yeah, I would describe that as over the line. You don't think so? Yeah, age gap, come on. Yeah, well, we can't have that. Those are all the ones I came up with. Okay, yeah. Three or four feeding-related tasks, and just the totally hypothetical going to the prom. Yeah, I mean, I guess if you're hired to be some sort of zookeeper? I don't know how many restrictions there are. Well, what if you're the female staffer,中文：嗯……它只吃人肉。那我会认为是不道德的。是的，好吧，我明白我刚才哪里让你迷惑了。是的，好吧，还有吗？有的。护送你代表的儿子去他的高中舞会。我会——如果你是女工作人员的话，我会说那是越界了。你不这么认为吗？是的，年龄差距，拜托。是啊，好吧，我们不能那样。那些都是我想出来的。好吧，是的。三到四个与喂养相关的任务，以及完全假设的去舞会。是的，我的意思是，我猜如果你被聘为某种动物园管理员？我不知道有多少限制。好吧，如果你是女工作人员的话，
Christian Britschgi：
you're only, you know, you're 22,中文：你只是，你知道的，你才 22 岁，
Christian Britschgi：
the handsome young man, young Peltola, he's 18? Okay. It doesn't seem that wrong. Well, are you being ordered to do it as part of your job? Or... And again, in this world, there are saber-toothed tigers everywhere. So as you're on the way to the prom, you could just be attacked by a saber-toothed tiger that only wants the taste of flesh. Hmm. Everyone... So then you're kind of like a security guard. Yeah. Okay. Well, okay, that dips back into acceptable, I think. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Alright, well I'm glad we settled this then. Yeah, okay, no more, yeah, okay. If there's any Hatch Act violation questions, you send them here.中文：那个英俊的年轻人，年轻的佩尔托拉，他 18 岁？好的。似乎也没错。嗯，你是被命令作为工作的一部分去做吗？还是……而且，在这个世界上，到处都是剑齿虎。所以当你去参加舞会的路上，你可能会被一只只想尝尝肉味的剑齿虎攻击。嗯。每个人……所以你有点像保安。是啊。好的。那么，好吧，我觉得这又回到了可以接受的范围。好的。是啊。好的。是啊。好吧，我很高兴我们解决了这个问题。是啊，好吧，不再说了，是啊，好吧。如果有任何违反《哈奇法》的问题，你就把它们发到这里来。
Robby Soave：
Hatch Act, more like a Slash Act. Ooh, uh-oh. Because of the razor-sharp claws of the saber-toothed tiger. Yeah, right.中文：《孵化法案》，更像是《砍杀法案》。哦，糟了。因为剑齿虎那锋利的爪子。没错。
Christian Britschgi：
The teeth too, right? That's what they're known for? The teeth. It's more a teeth thing. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, the teeth. Yeah. Are those surely... How much utility do you get for very large fangs? Uh, I don't know. Clearly it's not necessary because you have... No, clearly they aren't. Well, I guess they weren't necessary because they died out. Well... But they just got unlucky with the meteor strike or the glaciers or... No, I'm pretty sure we killed them all. Did saber tooth tigers and humans actually overlap? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then we killed them all. I mean, that's where like all the like giant sloths and whatever, I mean, how hard would it be to kill a giant sloth?中文：牙齿也是吧？那是它们最出名的地方，对吗？牙齿。更多是关于牙齿的东西。嗯。嗯。哦，牙齿。嗯。那些肯定是……很大獠牙能有多大用处呢？呃，我不知道。显然这不是必需的，因为你有……不，显然它们不是必须的。嗯，我猜你说的意思是它们并不是必需的，因为它们灭绝了。嗯……但它们只是运气不好，遇到了陨石撞击或者冰川期什么的……不，我很确定是我们把它们全杀了。剑齿虎和人类真的同时存在过吗？是的，是的，是的，是的。然后我们把它们全杀了。我的意思是，那也就是所有的巨树懒什么的，我是说，杀死一个巨树懒有多难呢？
Christian Britschgi：
But yeah, that's what they- Don't kill the sloth, it's just hanging out. It's providing a lounge chair for those monkeys I like so much. Nah, we ate them. Yeah, this is, humans are not good for other large mammals. We're the most dangerous animal of all. Ooh, yeah. We have the right to shape our environment as we see fit. That's what I believe. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Okay. I agree. I agree. Yeah. Well, not according to these EAs that we talked about last time.中文：但对，就是他们——别杀树懒，它只是闲逛而已。它为那些我非常喜欢的猴子提供了一把躺椅。不，我们吃掉了它们。是啊，人类对其他大型哺乳动物不太好。我们是最危险的动物。哦，是的。我们有权按照自己的意愿塑造环境。这是我的信念。是的。是的。嗯哼。是的。好吧。我同意。我同意。是的。嗯，不过根据我们上次讨论的这些有效行动者来说，并非如此。
Robby Soave：
I don't know if you saw that essay going around about how insect lives are more important than human lives. And they didn't hit- it wasn't even an insect in the picture. Yeah, it was like a giant- It was like an arachnid or something. Yeah, well, it was a big Caterpillar of some kind? Yeah, those are... Is that an insect? No, those are... It's an arthropod. Whoa. It's not an insect. Arthropod, you remember this? And there's arachnids, centipedes, millipedes, crustaceans,中文：我不知道你是否看到那篇关于昆虫的生命比人类生命更重要的文章。而且他们没有——图片里甚至不是昆虫。是的，那像一个巨大的——像是蛛形纲什么的。是的，好吧，好像是某种大型毛虫？是的，那些是……那是昆虫吗？不，那些是……那是节肢动物。哇，不是昆虫。节肢动物，你记得吗？还有蛛形纲、蜈蚣、千足虫、甲壳类动物，
10:00 - 20:00
Robby Soave：
and then insects. They're different. That's like saying a crab is an insect. No, it's an arthropod. Wow.中文：然后是昆虫。它们不一样。那就像说螃蟹是昆虫一样。不，它是节肢动物。哇。
Christian Britschgi：
Okay, yeah, so sorry Dr. Doolittle. Yeah, who's bringing out the knowledge now?中文：好吧，是的，对不起，杜利特医生。是啊，现在是谁在传授知识呢？
Christian Britschgi：
Geography is my, not zoology. What is their argument? That the arthropods matter more? Because, you know, utilitarianism is all about, you know, aggregate levels of pain and pleasure, and because insects can feel pain and there's so many more insects.中文：地理是我的，不是动物学。他们的论点是什么？是说节肢动物更重要吗？因为，你知道，功利主义完全是关于，你知道，痛苦和快乐的总体水平，而且因为昆虫能感受到痛苦，而且昆虫数量更多。
Christian Britschgi：
A live grasshopper that can feel pain. Yeah, but the chameleon can feel pain if it's starved to death.中文：一只能感到疼痛的活蚱蜢。是的，但如果变色龙被饿死，它也能感到疼痛。
Robby Soave：
The chameleon doesn't abide by an effective altruism framework, right? The chameleon doesn't understand. So we should be reducing the chameleon population in favor of the bugs. Yeah, that seems like a wrong way to think about things because chameleons are cool and bugs are kind of gross. Well, it sounds like this rep—or yeah, this woman is a chameleon. She's all nice and friendly in front of the camera. Yeah, there was, yeah, like she's against, she's trying to restrict fishing, and then she took a picture with a commercial fishery executive and then posted the picture, and she was like, what is wrong with this fucking retard?中文：变色龙不遵循有效利他主义的框架，对吧？变色龙不理解。所以我们应该减少变色龙的数量，以利于昆虫。是的，这似乎是一种错误的思考方式，因为变色龙很酷，而昆虫有点恶心。嗯，听起来这个代表——或者是的，这个女人是个变色龙。她在镜头前总是很友好和亲切。是的，确实，她反对，她试图限制捕鱼，然后她和一家商业渔业的高管拍了张照片，然后把照片发了上去，她还在想，这个该死的白痴到底怎么了？
Christian Britschgi：
Yeah. You know, I'm used to representatives changing their color in the face of political issues, but this is some real chameleon behavior. Very good. You look good today, by the way. You got a haircut. I did. I did get a haircut. I'll show this to the folks at home. Looks good. Yeah, I figured I should look, you know, modest. More presentable, finally? Modestly more employable.中文：嗯，你知道的，我已经习惯了代表们在政治问题面前改变他们的立场，但这真的是一些真正的变色龙行为。非常好。顺便说一句，你今天看起来不错。你剪头发了。我剪了。我确实剪了头发。我会把这个展示给家里的人看。看起来不错。嗯，我想我应该看起来，嗯，谦虚一些。终于更体面了吗？谦虚地更具就业能力。
Robby Soave：
After doing this for six months? Yeah, you know, I'd seen through the looking glass what it was like to be Rasputin, and, you know. I don't want people to try and poison me just to see that I'll survive. Well, don't drink that coffee then.中文：做了六个月之后？是的，你知道，我已经透过镜子看到了做拉斯普京是什么感觉，你知道的。我不希望人们只是为了看看我能否活下来而试图毒害我。那么，那就别喝那杯咖啡了。
Christian Britschgi：
Ah! Too late! Ah, too late! Damn, you got me, you got me.中文：啊！太晚了！啊，太晚了！该死，你抓住我了，你抓住我了。
Robby Soave：
You are under my influence now. Damn, I shoulda read the FDA warnings on these harmless sins. Oh yeah, the nicotine patches? Yeah, I dipped those in a-中文：你现在在我的影响下。该死，我本应该看这些无害罪恶的 FDA 警告的。哦，对了，尼古丁贴片？是的，我把那些浸在了一个-
Christian Britschgi：
Poison. Maybe in a hallucinogenic acid. Yeah. Yeah, how many of me are you seeing right now? Just one. Wait, how many fingers am I holding up? Oh, we talked about how I'm bad at math. And bad at Kingdom Phylum Class Family Order Genus Species stuff, because you didn't know what an arthropod was. Wow, you just climbed up and down the ladder there. I'm just, uh, lording it over. Oh my God. Natalie is just, has sent me 8,000 messages in the last, uh, five minutes. About what? About what we should talk about? I guess what we should talk about.中文：毒药。也许是一种迷幻的酸。是的。是的，你现在看到的我有几个？只有一个。等等，我举起了几根手指？哦，我们说过我数学不好。还有昆虫门纲目科属种的东西也不好，因为你不知道节肢动物是什么。哇，你刚刚在梯子上上下爬啊。我只是，呃，自命不凡。哦我的天哪。娜塔莉在过去的，呃，五分钟里给我发了八千条信息。关于什么？关于我们应该聊什么？我想是我们应该聊什么。
Robby Soave：
Now, we're on strike. I'm still not ready to talk about Fight Club. We're gonna get to it. Okay. But how about that lesbian bar? Oh, yeah. Most interest I've ever shown in a lesbian bar. But shh.中文：现在，我们正在罢工。我仍然不准备谈论搏击俱乐部。我们会谈的。好的。不过那个女同性恋酒吧怎么样？哦，是的。我对女同性恋酒吧表现出的兴趣是有史以来最多的。但嘘。
Christian Britschgi：
Jinx. Uh. Yeah. Uh, well, why don't you catch up, uh, the, uh, the viewers at home about it. Do I have to do everything? Yeah, well, you were the one who absorbed more of it. Okay. There was a paywall, so I didn't really read it, but I think I know what it was about. So, no, this went super viral on social media because this is like... You know, like somewhere there's an island where a Japanese pilot who went down in the war still thinks the Great War is going on. Yeah, Hiro Akinado or whatever his name is. Yeah, and this is like that because they were still requiring The K-N-95, the super powerful masks in the bar until last month. Wow.中文：Jinx。呃。嗯，呃，好吧，为什么你不向在家的观众，呃，嗯，讲讲这件事呢。我必须做所有事情吗？嗯，好吧，你是吸收得更多的人。好吧。有一个付费墙，所以我没有真正读过，但我想我知道它是关于什么的。嗯，不，这在社交媒体上超级火，因为这就像……你知道，有个岛上，一名在战争中阵亡的日本飞行员仍然认为大战还在进行。是的，Hiro Akinado 或者他的名字什么的。是的，这就像那样，因为他们在酒吧里一直要求佩戴 K-N-95 超级强效口罩，直到上个月。哇。
Christian Britschgi：
For these immunocompromised lesbian patrons of this bar in wherever this was. Greenfield, Massachusetts? Sure. Yeah.中文：对于这些在这个酒吧里的免疫力低下的女同性恋顾客来说，不管这是哪里。马萨诸塞州格林菲尔德？当然。是的。
Robby Soave：
And then it caused a, then they tried to get rid of the mask mandate. Because no one wanted to go to this lame, stupid bar where everyone has to wear a mask because my God, is that...中文：然后这引起了，然后他们试图取消口罩规定。因为没有人想去这个无聊、愚蠢的酒吧，大家都必须戴口罩，因为我的天啊，那真是...
Christian Britschgi：
But then it caused a giant freakout, and they had a big Zoom struggle session about how this was, you know, literally holocausting disabled people by excluding them from, you know, queer spaces because you can't go there if you're not wearing a mask. Having to wear a mask in a bar is such a just awful experience. Well, it's a ludicrous experience, too. Like, you're removing it to drink, presumably.中文：但是后来它引起了一场巨大的恐慌，他们在一次大的 Zoom 讨论会上争论，这就像是，你知道的，通过把残障人士排除在外来‘大屠杀’他们，因为你如果不戴口罩就不能去那些酷儿空间。在酒吧里必须戴口罩是如此糟糕的体验。嗯，这也是一种荒谬的体验。比如，你喝酒的时候 presumably 还得摘下来。
Robby Soave：
But I guess they now have these masks that...中文：但我想他们现在有这些口罩……
Christian Britschgi：
Oh, right, yeah. This is like the mask, like, there's a hole in it. Yeah, there's like a sip valve. Yeah, yeah, that's ridiculous. Ugh. Yeah, it's, um, yeah, do you remember the bubbles that people wore? Oh my god. Did you ever see one of those in the wild? No. I did on, I took an Amtrak in 2021, and there was a, u中文：哦，对，没错。这就像面具一样，上面有一个洞。是的，还有一个吸气阀。对，对，这太荒谬了。呃。是的，嗯，对，你还记得人们戴的那些泡泡吗？哦，天哪。你曾经在外面见过一个吗？没有。我在 2021 年坐过一次 Amtrak 的时候见过一个，然后有一个，呃
Christian Britschgi：
Yeah, the hobos, you know, you don't have to pay your fare, but, uh... I might pickaxe and go, Headin' west to work in the coal mines! The coal mines are back east. Um, but, uh... Yeah, the mines... Or no, I'm working on...中文：是的，流浪汉，你知道的，你不必付车费，但是，呃……我可能会拿着鹤嘴锄走，向西去煤矿工作！煤矿在东边。嗯，但是，呃……是的，矿……或者不，我在做……
Robby Soave：
The transcontinental railroad. The railroad's just gonna come to an end. Yeah. And then I'm gonna get off it, and then I'm gonna start... Yeah....doing the dynamite to blow open the, you know...中文：泛美铁路。铁路终究会到尽头。是的。然后我会下车，然后我会开始……是的……用炸药炸开，你知道的……
Christian Britschgi：
Oh, if it's a trans railroad, you definitely have to wear the mask. Oh. Yeah. Um, yeah. There was a, there was a, you know, the, we're just jumping all over the place.中文：哦，如果是跨铁路的话，你绝对得戴口罩。哦。是的。嗯，是的。那里有一个，那里有一个，你知道的，我们只是乱跳话题。
Robby Soave：
You know, the, the, the Peanuts, like Snoopy and Charlie Brown, those characters?中文：你知道，那个，那个，《花生漫画》，像史努比和查理·布朗，那些角色？
Christian Britschgi：
Yeah, I know you don't. They had like some like historical specials I remember watching as a kid. One was on the Transcontinental Railroad where they're all, and I learned a lot about the Transcontinental Railroad from Snoopy and Charlie Brown, and Lucy's the best Peanuts character in my view, because she pretends to be a psychiatrist and gives Charlie Brown terrible advice. Scams. She just exists to scam and harm Charlie Brown. Like actual psychiatrists. Yes. This moving of the football that just like, this woman has just declared war on her hapless friend.中文：是啊，我知道你不知道。我记得小时候看过他们的一些历史专题。有一期是关于大陆横贯铁路的，他们都在里面，我从史努比和查理·布朗那里学到了很多关于大陆横贯铁路的知识，而在我看来，露西是最棒的《花生漫画》角色，因为她假装自己是心理医生，并给查理·布朗糟糕的建议。诈骗。她存在的唯一目的就是诈骗和伤害查理·布朗。就像真正的心理医生一样。是的。踢足球的那一幕，就像，这个女人对她那个无助的朋友宣战一样。
Robby Soave：
Who keeps falling for it. So at a certain point you kind of have to blame Charlie Brown. I don't mean to victim blame. No, you absolutely blame him. Yeah. Stand up for yourself. She's great. And then speaking of lesbians, what's the- Snoopy?中文：谁总是上当。所以在某个时候，你有点不得不责怪查理·布朗。我不是说要怪受害者。不，你完全可以责怪他。是的，为自己挺身而出。她很棒。然后说到女同性恋，什么情况——史努比？
Christian Britschgi：
No, no, no, no, the really butch woman who's like the captain of the baseball team who calls Charlie Brown Chuck Peppermint Patty. Peppermint Patty. And her friend calls her sir. And she doesn't understand that Snoopy's a dog. No. Because he's the most talented player on the baseball team. That's good stuff. That's pretty good. Yeah, just because it's educational doesn't mean that it can't be fun. Can't be fun. That's what I think about this podcast. It's fun and educational. Learning so much about how to classify insects properly, despite your sincere efforts to mislead our audience. I apologize.中文：不，不，不，不，真正很男子气的女人，她就像棒球队的队长，她叫查理·布朗为查克·佩派明特·帕蒂。佩派明特·帕蒂。她的朋友叫她先生。而她不明白史努比是一只狗。不。因为他是棒球队里最有天赋的球员。那很棒。还不错。是的，只因为它有教育意义，并不意味着它不能有趣。不能有趣。这就是我对这个播客的看法。它既有趣又有教育意义。尽管你真诚地试图误导我们的观众，我还是学到了很多关于如何正确分类昆虫的知识。我道歉。
Robby Soave：
What were we talking about? The bar. The bar. Yeah, you know, I guess, I mean, see, I have become much more relaxed about people who insist on masks now because it's not a society-wide phenomenon. Some of them don't insist on me. Right, right, okay, so there's no social norm that you have to wear it outside of the- Right, you're gonna- I'm still gonna judge you for doing it, because it's weird.中文：我们刚才在谈什么？酒吧。酒吧。是啊，你知道，我想，我是说，你看，我现在对那些坚持戴口罩的人已经放松很多了，因为这不是一个全社会的现象。有些人并不会坚持我必须戴。对，对，好吧，所以在……之外，没有社会规范要求你必须戴。对，你会……我仍然会因为你这么做而评判你，因为这很奇怪。
Christian Britschgi：
You know, this is kind of what- it is strange, but this is what bars are for, right? Weird groups of marginalized people, you know, having their own little space. And so if you want to have a mask mandate, you know... Say I love you. Yeah. You know? But so I guess I have a little sympathy for the neurotics who, you know, don't have their space anymore. Let me just say in this respect, a lesbian bar and a gay bar could not be more dissimilar experiences. Yeah. You're required to remove even normal amounts of clothing when you go into a gay bar. Right.中文：你知道，这有点奇怪，但这就是酒吧的意义，对吧？一些边缘化群体，有自己的小空间。所以如果你想强制戴口罩，你知道......说我爱你。是的。你懂的？不过我想我对那些神经质的人有点同情，他们已经没有自己的空间了。让我说，从这个角度来说，女同性恋酒吧和同性恋酒吧的体验截然不同。是的。你进入同性恋酒吧时，甚至需要脱掉正常数量的衣服。右。
Robby Soave：
I think I saw a guy wearing a shirt once, and that was the highest level of protection being engaged. Yeah. They let in a straight.中文：我记得我曾经看到一个人穿着衬衫，那是他采取的最高防护措施。是的。他们直接放行了。
Christian Britschgi：
There's like a skimpy little wire mesh crop top or something. DC's got a pretty good per capita rate of gay bars, right? We got a healthy number of gay bars. I don't know if it's comparable to other cities, but I like the gay bars we have here.中文：好像是一个很小的线网式短款上衣之类的。华盛顿特区的人均同性恋酒吧数量挺多的，对吧？我们这里有相当数量的同性恋酒吧。我不知道能不能和其他城市相比，但我喜欢我们这里的同性恋酒吧。
Robby Soave：
Little gay pub. Is that the- There's- and they all sound- crush, push, tush, lush. Ugh, stop, stop. Hush, push. Don't consent. Yeah.中文：小同志酒吧。那是——他们听起来都——crush、push、tush、lush。呃，停，停。安静，推。别同意。是的。
Christian Britschgi：
Bunker, I'm a fan of Bunker. It was a good time there. We got, DC's got, at least my stereotype is gay bars are kind of more like clubby, right? But DC's got like bar bars that are gay. Yeah, it has a range. There's like the Little Gay Pub is as advertised, you could go there. I think you have been there. No, I've never actually been inside. I pass it on my way to church frequently. I just want to scoot that in there for you. You passed it on the way to the food kitchen to helping elderly women cross the street. If any young, beautiful women are listening, you're on your way from the food kitchen.中文：Bunker，我很喜欢 Bunker。那里度过的时光很愉快。我们去过，DC 也有，至少我刻板印象里，同志酒吧有点更像夜店，对吧？但是 DC 确实有那种真正的酒吧式同志酒吧。是的，它种类多样。就像 Little Gay Pub，名副其实，你可以去那儿。我想你去过吧。不，我其实从没进去过。我经常经过它去教堂的路上。我只是想顺便提一下。你是说从食物厨房去帮老人过马路的路上经过吗？如果有年轻漂亮的女性在听，你正好从食物厨房路过。
Robby Soave：
Yeah, I got a big heart. I took the Vex.中文：是的，我有一颗大心。我接受了 Vex。
Christian Britschgi：
Yeah. Oh, because of the vaccine inflating your heart. Yeah, like a grinch. Oh, that's sad. Yeah. Oh, well. But no, we have, and then we have, you know, the really grungy underground sex club type place too. Okay, yeah. Cruisin' locations. Yeah, whatever, whatever you got.中文：是的。哦，因为疫苗让你的心脏肿大。是的，就像一个格林奇。哦，那很可怜。是啊。哦，好吧。但不，我们有，然后我们还有，你知道的，真正破旧的地下性俱乐部类型的地方。好吧，是的。巡游地点。是的，不管你有什么都行。
Christian Britschgi：
Yeah. It's a little something for everyone. Something for every gentleman. So that's why I kind of defend, it's kind of like I, uh, every once in a while you'll see some news story about like, the socialist cafe that like gets rid of prices,中文：是的。这对每个人来说都有一点东西。每位绅士都有一些东西。所以这就是为什么我有点辩护，就像我，呃，偶尔你会看到一些新闻报道，比如，一个社会主义咖啡馆取消价格的事情，
Robby Soave：
Oooh. and lets everyone set their own schedules and it just like is a complete disaster. It's like, yeah, that's a stupid way to run a business, but at the same time, like most businesses fail, so. Different strokes for different folks. Exactly. It's fine by me. It's the motto at the gay bar. Yeah.中文：哦哦，让每个人自己安排时间表，然后这就变成彻底的灾难。就像，嗯，是的，这是一个愚蠢的经营企业的方式，但同时，大多数企业都会失败，所以。各人有各人的做法。没错。对我来说没问题。这就是那个同志酒吧的座右铭。是啊。
Christian Britschgi：
Well, yeah, the less said about... Strokes, the better. Okay, okay, well that was some real, does that count as real news?中文：嗯，是啊，关于……中风，越少说越好。好吧，好吧，那算是真实新闻吗？
Robby Soave：
Yeah, I think so. We covered our real news threshold? Yeah, I mean, I guess there's some other- No, there's some other real things I wanted to talk about. Did you read that, I wrote a whole article on it, the death of libertarianism? Yes, I did.中文：是的，我想是的。我们达到了真正的新闻门槛了吗？是的，我的意思是，我想还有一些其他的——不，我有一些其他真实的事情想谈。你读了吗，我写了一整篇文章关于它，自由意志主义的消亡？是的，我读了。
20:00 - 30:00
Christian Britschgi：
Daniel McCarthy, a... associate-friendly figure in our social circles, someone we interact with, who's a smart guy and writes a lot of interesting things, and has been involved adjacent to libertarian organizations in the past. Someone who's gotten much less libertarian over time. Very much so. He knows what he's talking about. I didn't think it was a very strong article. Well... And I'll go into why, but... Yeah, I thought your response to it was good, and I'd encourage people to read it. But, um, yeah, I mean, I guess the one thing you can't deny is that, like, libertarianism as both, A, as, like, a partisan political force has collapsed. Yes, that's not doing well.中文：丹尼尔·麦卡锡，是我们社交圈中一个很容易相处的人，我们会和他互动，他是个聪明人，写了很多有趣的东西，过去也参与过一些与自由主义组织相关的活动。随着时间的推移，他的自由主义倾向明显减弱，非常明显。他说话有理。我并不认为那是一篇很强的文章。嗯……我会说明原因，但……是的，我觉得你对它的回应很好，我鼓励大家去读一读。不过，嗯，是的，我的意思是，我想唯一无法否认的一点是，自由主义作为一种既是、作为、A、作为一个政党的政治力量已经崩溃了。是的，这方面做得不好。
Robby Soave：
Mm-hmm.中文：嗯。
Christian Britschgi：
Yeah. Right, that's libertarians and libertarianism. Right. Libert- my- you know, he- he's- he has this article called The Death of Libertarianism. Yeah.中文：是的。对，那是自由意志主义者和自由意志主义。对。自由意志-我的-你知道，他-他-他有一篇文章叫做《自由意志主义的死》。是的。
Robby Soave：
But it's really about- it's two things. It's one, him just complaining about libertarianism. He does not like libertarianism. He's actually complaining about libertarian wins, policy wins. Right, he's saying there's too much gambling and gay stuff and libertarianism, and this is bad for the soul. Or does not fill the void in your soul. Which is, again, this is a political philosophy, it is not meant to give you meaning. And for a lot of people, having more choice and control over their life does give them meaning.中文：但这实际上是关于——有两件事。第一，他只是抱怨自由意志主义。他不喜欢自由意志主义。他实际上是在抱怨自由意志主义的胜利，政策上的胜利。对，他在说自由意志主义中赌博和同性恋的东西太多了，而这对灵魂不好。或者说不能填补你灵魂中的空虚。再次强调，这是一个政治哲学，它并不是用来给你生命意义的。而对于很多人来说，拥有更多对自己生活的选择和控制确实会给他们带来意义。
Christian Britschgi：
With the exception of sports gambling, like, people aren't trying to, like, go back on these things, right? So in a way, that's a triumph of libertarianism. And this is what a successful political movement does, is you win the argument, and then people just kind of accept it,中文：除了体育博彩，人们并没有试图去推翻这些事情，对吧？所以从某种意义上说，这是自由意志主义的胜利。这也是一个成功的政治运动所做的事情，你赢得了论点，然后人们就会接受它。
Robby Soave：
and then they don't look to you as, like, the particular defenders of this thing that is now consensus opinion, right? Yeah, and also, right, the Trump administration has no—is pro-online gambling and pro-drugs and right to try and pro—and on—中文：然后他们不会把你看作是这个现在已成为共识意见的事物的特别捍卫者，对吧？是的，而且，对吧，特朗普政府没有——支持在线赌博和支持药物以及尝试权利，并且支持——
Christian Britschgi：
What is arguably—he's like, libertarian thinkers are no longer cited and it's just totally relevant. Okay, on the most important policy issue of Trump's term as president, tech and artificial intelligence, arguably the most important thing given how much it figures into our economy and involves global issues, Trump is a raging libertarian.中文：可以说——他就像，自由主义思想家不再被引用，这变得完全相关。好吧，就特朗普总统任期内最重要的政策问题——科技和人工智能而言，可以说这是最重要的事情，因为它与我们的经济紧密相关并涉及全球问题，特朗普是一个狂热的自由主义者。
Robby Soave：
The arguments he's making are straight out of Thatcher or Reagan. It's true of the The infrastructure for tech, data centers.中文：他提出的论点完全是撒切尔或里根的风格。这对于技术基础设施、数据中心来说也是如此。
Christian Britschgi：
To be clear, I don't think Trump is a libertarian. He's also not an anti-libertarian. He's just not an ideological figure, period. He has moved the consensus away from libertarian ideas on international trade. He is, but on tech- Immigration. And on immigration, on tech and regulatory stuff in general, wildly libertarian.中文：明确地说，我不认为特朗普是一个自由意志主义者。他也不是反自由意志主义者。他根本就不是一个意识形态人物。他已经将共识从自由意志主义的国际贸易理念转移开了。但在科技、移民方面，他确实持自由意志主义立场。在移民、科技以及一般监管事务上，他极其自由意志主义。
Robby Soave：
So you can't say that libertarianism is failing. It... You can certainly say it hasn't taken over the government, but its ideas are alive and well, and they're in the mix as an important component of government policy. Where I do agree, although he doesn't really, McCarthy doesn't go into this at all,中文：所以你不能说自由意志主义正在失败。它……你当然可以说它还没有接管政府，但它的思想依然活跃，而且它们作为政府政策的重要组成部分之一存在。我同意的地方，尽管他并不同意，麦卡锡根本没有涉及这一点，
Christian Britschgi：
Like, I could very well, I could write an essay about the demise of libertarian political movement, which has occurred. Like, there's not a politically relevant faction of libertarians. The Republican Party, or certainly not the Democratic Party. Or independently, right. The Libertarian Party itself has... Unfortunately, I think it's a real travesty. It's what's happened to it. But I would describe this not as the death of libertarianism, but like a reversion to the historic norm, which is that libertarians are a small faction, mostly of policy wonks and ideologues who punch above their weight on particular policy issues, but are not lik中文：比如，我完全可以写一篇关于自由主义政治运动衰落的文章，这确实已经发生了。比如，现在没有一个政治上有影响力的自由主义派别。共和党，当然也不是民主党。或者是独立的，对吧？自由党本身……不幸的是，我认为这真的是一种悲剧。这就是它所发生的事情。但我不会把这描述为自由主义的死亡，而是像回归历史常态，自由主义者历来都是一个小派别，主要由政策专家和意识形态者组成，在特定政策问题上影响力超出自身份量，但并不...
Christian Britschgi：
Yeah, the Ron Paul movement has happened.中文：是的，罗恩·保罗运动已经发生了。
Christian Britschgi：
Rand Paul is rising.中文：兰德·保罗正在上升。
Christian Britschgi：
There's the Tea Party movement.中文：那是茶党运动。
Christian Britschgi：
There's libertarian student organizations coming along.中文：有自由意志主义学生组织正在出现。
Christian Britschgi：
And it seemed like the GOP,中文：看起来像是共和党，
Christian Britschgi：
in an effort to cater to those vibes,中文：为了迎合那种氛围，
Christian Britschgi：
was going to become less interventionist中文：将变得不那么干预
Christian Britschgi：
and just socially more tolerant or just cool.中文：而且在社交上更宽容或者只是很酷。
Christian Britschgi：
And was going to...中文：并且正在打算...
Christian Britschgi：
Actually, the GOP was...中文：实际上，共和党是...
Christian Britschgi：
Fairly welcoming to immigrants at that point.中文：在那时候对移民相当欢迎。
Christian Britschgi：
It was just gonna continue its Bush-era immigration stuff中文：它本来只是打算继续布什时代的移民政策
Christian Britschgi：
and be super about limited government中文：而且要对有限政府非常热衷
Robby Soave：
and opposing Obama on big government grounds.中文：并且从大政府的立场上反对奥巴马。
Robby Soave：
And there was gonna be more people like Rand Paul.中文：而且还会有更多像兰德·保罗那样的人。
Robby Soave：
That seemed maybe not inevitable,中文：那似乎也许并非不可避免，
Robby Soave：
but like the trajectory that was going on. So if you told me at the time中文：但就像当时的发展轨迹一样。所以如果你当时告诉我
Christian Britschgi：
that actually what's gonna happen 16 years from now is中文：实际上 16 年后将发生的事情是
Christian Britschgi：
Most of those people will either be out of politics.中文：大多数那些人要么会退出政治。
Christian Britschgi：
We will not continually elect more people like Rand Paul.中文：我们不会不断选出更多像兰德·保罗那样的人。
Christian Britschgi：
Rand Paul himself will be the only one中文：兰德·保罗本人将是唯一的一个
Christian Britschgi：
who holds on for dear life by a mix of very,中文：谁拼命抓住，靠着一种非常混合的方式，
Christian Britschgi：
So savvy or crafty politicking is still able to talk about and introduce libertarian ideas,中文：所以精明或狡猾的政治手段仍然能够讨论并引入自由意志主义的思想，
Christian Britschgi：
but it's really gonna be just him. That would be a disappointment.中文：但真的就只有他。这会让人失望。
Christian Britschgi：
And that the Libertarian Party was not gonna grow in any,中文：并且自由意志党不会在任何方面增长，
Christian Britschgi：
well, would grow for a couple elections中文：嗯，会在几次选举中增长
Christian Britschgi：
and then totally collapse due to bad mismanagement,中文：然后由于管理不善而彻底崩溃，
Christian Britschgi：
questionable leadership decisions,中文：值得怀疑的领导决策，
Christian Britschgi：
including the party sabotaging its own candidate.中文：包括该党破坏自己候选人的行为。
Christian Britschgi：
That is all discouraging.中文：那真令人沮丧。
Robby Soave：
Like, you know, Bill Clinton is sometimes described erroneously as a soft libertarian because he said, you know, the era of big government is over. Yeah, neoliberal.中文：比如，你知道，比尔·克林顿有时被错误地描述为温和的自由主义者，因为他曾说过，你知道，大政府的时代已经结束。是的，新自由主义。
Robby Soave：
Yeah, neoliberal, right? But like the neoliberal moment, if you want to call it that. Yeah.中文：是啊，新自由主义，对吧？但是像新自由主义的那个时刻，如果你愿意这么称呼的话。是的。
Robby Soave：
So it was with us on trade, right? And this idea of globalization and welcoming of immigrants.中文：所以我们在贸易上也是这样，对吧？还有这种全球化和欢迎移民的想法。
Robby Soave：
But it was also very interventionist when it came to foreign policy.中文：但在外交政策方面，它也非常干预主义。
Robby Soave：
Tough on crime politics was very big under Bill Clinton, right?中文：在比尔·克林顿时期，对犯罪严厉的政治非常盛行，对吧？
Christian Britschgi：
I mean, he is probably the worst president of the 21st century.中文：我的意思是，他可能是 21 世纪最糟糕的总统。
Christian Britschgi：
Trump's giving him a run for his money with a lot of stuff.中文：特朗普在很多事情上都在与他一较高下。
Robby Soave：
But yeah, I mean, he was what was his big thing was compassionate conservatism, right?中文：但是，是啊，我的意思是，他的重大主张是什么来着，是有同情心的保守主义，对吧？
Robby Soave：
We're not, you know, we're not the free market ideologues.中文：你知道的，我们不是，我们不是自由市场的理想主义者。
Robby Soave：
We're going to do a big Medicare expansion and we're going to,中文：我们打算进行一次大规模的医疗保险扩展，我们将会，
Robby Soave：
you know, federalize so much about education policy and on and on and on.中文：你知道，将教育政策等如此多事情联邦化，一直如此。
Robby Soave：
And also very socially conservative, right?中文：而且在社会上也非常保守，对吧？
Robby Soave：
So if anything, like it's not中文：所以如果有什么的话，就不是
Robby Soave：
You know, the real collapse has not been libertarianism, which again, had a brief ahistorical rise in prominence and then fall.中文：你知道，真正崩溃的不是自由意志主义，它曾再次短暂地在没有历史依据的情况下崛起，然后又衰落。
Robby Soave：
It's the collapse of what was kind of considered the normal kind of Republican, you know, free markets, free trade, but also, you know, foreign intervention, welcoming immigrants, whatever else, social conservatism.中文：这是那种被认为是正常的共和党的崩溃，你知道，自由市场，自由贸易，但同时，你也知道，外国干预，欢迎移民，以及其他社会保守主义的崩溃。
Robby Soave：
That's what's collapsed, right?中文：那就是倒塌的，对吧？
Robby Soave：
That kind of old school Republican Party.中文：那种老派的共和党。
Robby Soave：
And also, no one has... there's an irritating triumphalism about this. It's like, oh, you libertarians lost and we got Trump.中文：而且，也没有人……这其中有一种令人恼火的凯旋感。就好像在说，哦，你们这些自由意志主义者输了，我们得到了特朗普。
Robby Soave：
And it's like, yeah, but everyone kind of lost with Trump because he's so non-ideological.中文：就像，是的，但大家在特朗普身上都有些迷失，因为他完全没有意识形态。
Robby Soave：
Right. And that's what I hate. And this comes through in this piece, the gloating, because McCarthy represents, you know, the more the populist faction, the national conservative whatever.中文：对。这就是我讨厌的。而这一点在这篇作品中表现出来了，幸灾乐祸，因为麦卡锡代表了，你知道的，更倾向于民粹派的国家保守派什么的。
Robby Soave：
Like, those people aren't winning anything. I mean, like, they're just very annoying and loud on social media.中文：就像，那些人根本没有赢得任何东西。我的意思是，他们在社交媒体上只是非常烦人和吵闹。
Robby Soave：
Right. But they're not... their faction is also中文：对。但他们不是……他们的派系也是
Robby Soave：
hopelessly divided over foreign policy, actually, because some of those very annoying NatCon-type people are like...中文：实际上，他们在外交政策上分裂得无可救药，因为那些非常烦人的国家保守派人就像......
Christian Britschgi：
And Dan McCarthy himself is very non-interventionist.中文：丹·麦卡锡本人非常不干预。
Christian Britschgi：
Right. Yeah, they law... yeah.中文：对。是的，他们的法律……是的。
Christian Britschgi：
Trump is starting a new Middle Eastern war, is not doing their thing. He's doing Bush-era, boomer, Fox News, neocon stuff.中文：特朗普正在发动一场新的中东战争，没有按照他们的方式行事。他做的是布什时代、婴儿潮一代、福克斯新闻、新保守主义的事情。
Christian Britschgi：
And they're fighting over—and then their people who are not for that have collapsed into utter mania and delusion over, like, Charlie Kirk and Israel and Epstein Files and all that.中文：他们在为此争斗——然后那些不支持这一点的人却陷入了完全的疯狂和妄想，比如关于查理·柯克、以色列和埃普斯坦档案等等。
Christian Britschgi：
I mean, they're insane people. Tucker Carlson, Candace Owens are working.中文：我是说，他们是疯子。塔克·卡尔森、坎迪斯·欧文斯在工作。
Christian Britschgi：
...harder than any two people alive to destroy the conservative movement and make sure a Republican president is not to like kill any of the good vibes associated with Trump or his successor.中文：...比任何两个在世的人都更难摧毁保守运动，并确保共和党总统不会——比如杀死与特朗普或他的继任者相关的任何好感觉。
Christian Britschgi：
Like, they are working studiously to destroy that. Which, perfectly—I don't care, whatever, but I—you can't say popula—like,中文：他们正在努力地去摧毁那个。完全——我不在乎，随便，但是我——你不能说 populа——像这样，
Christian Britschgi：
Populism is rising, or Nat cons are rising as a faction within the GOP when like their spokespeople are trying to destroy the GOP, openly trying to destroy them, and they're feuding with them.中文：民粹主义在上升，或者说民族保守派作为共和党内的一个派系在上升，当他们的发言人试图摧毁共和党时，公开地试图摧毁他们，并且他们与共和党发生争执。
Christian Britschgi：
And like, like there's a, like the building is on fire over there.中文：就像，就像那里有一栋楼着火了。
Christian Britschgi：
And that's fine. Our house is on fire too.中文：那也没关系。我们的房子也着火了。
Christian Britschgi：
But don't, I don't want to hear your triumphalist, to use the word you just said, sort of like, haha, we want, like,中文：但是不要，我不想听你用你刚才说的那个词来说的那种得意洋洋的，哈哈，我们想要的那种，
Christian Britschgi：
Vance is gonna have to defend a war he hates, and then he's gonna lose. Yep, right. So, enjoy that!中文：万斯将不得不为一场他憎恨的战争辩护，然后他将会失败。没错，完全正确。所以，享受吧！
Christian Britschgi：
Yeah, it's kinda like, this is like, uh, you know, maybe like French revolutionaries in中文：是的，这有点像，这就像，呃，你知道，也许像法国革命者一样在
Christian Britschgi：
1792 being like, haha, we beat the royalists! Yeah.中文：1792 就像，哈哈，我们打败了保皇派！耶。
Robby Soave：
It's like, oh, just you wait!中文：就像，哦，你等着瞧吧！
Christian Britschgi：
You guys got no divisions of your own.中文：你们自己没有任何部门。
Christian Britschgi：
You have no comeuppance coming for you.中文：你不会遭到报应。
30:00 - 40:00
Christian Britschgi：
Yeah, that's, and it's just like the gleeful kind of, Yeah. Yeah, I mean, what have they got?中文：是啊，就是那种兴高采烈的感觉。是啊，是啊，我是说，他们有什么好的吗？
Christian Britschgi：
And also, we're not really turning the clock中文：而且，我们实际上并没有真正倒转时间
Christian Britschgi：
on any of the culturally libertarian stuff. I don't think so.中文：在任何文化自由主义的事情上。我不这么认为。
Christian Britschgi：
Trump has no desire to do so.中文：特朗普没有这样做的意愿。
Christian Britschgi：
He's not a marijuana drug warrior. No, in fact, he's actually,中文：他不是大麻禁毒战士。不，事实上，他实际上是,
Christian Britschgi：
Of any president, he's probably the most pro... Sure.中文：在所有总统中，他可能是最支持……当然。
Christian Britschgi：
He's done the most pro-legalization for marijuana and psychedelics.中文：他一直是支持大麻和迷幻药合法化的最积极的人。
Christian Britschgi：
I mean, he's blowing up, you know, shipments of cocaine in the Caribbean, allegedly. But... I know. Great. Price of cocaine's...中文：我的意思是，他在加勒比地区炸毁可卡因的运输，据称如此。但……我知道。太好了。可卡因的价格……
Robby Soave：
Talking so much about a price of diesel and fuel and everything. Price of cocaine. Talking about the price of cocaine. Yeah.中文：谈论这么多关于柴油和燃料以及一切的价格。可卡因的价格。谈论可卡因的价格。是的。
Christian Britschgi：
Yeah, no wonder there's not all these clubby gay bars anymore. It's an attack on our culture. Yeah, right. Yeah. So sad.中文：是啊，难怪现在没有那些俱乐部式的同志酒吧了。这是对我们文化的攻击。是啊，没错。是的。真让人难过。
Christian Britschgi：
So here's the meta lesson, I think,中文：所以我认为，这就是元课程的教训，
Christian Britschgi：
the folks at home need to internalize,中文：家里的那些人需要内化，
Christian Britschgi：
and also commenters out there,中文：而且还有那里的评论者，
Christian Britschgi：
is anyone who like triumph, you know,中文：有人喜欢胜利，你知道的，
Christian Britschgi：
declares the victory of their small political faction中文：宣告他们小型政治派别的胜利
Christian Britschgi：
over all other politics in America,中文：在美国凌驾于所有其他政治之上，
Robby Soave：
you're gonna be disappointed in two years. Y中文：你两年后会失望的。Y
Christian Britschgi：
know, they got the Congress again. So it's politics is a constant churn. Ideas that were radical then become consensus, and then, you know, no faction owns it anymore. And then also just coalitions change, right? So if you think you're winning today, just wait till tomorrow.中文：你知道，他们又掌控了国会。所以政治是不断变化的。当时激进的想法变成共识，然后，你知道，就没有哪个派别再拥有它了。而且联盟也在变化，对吧？所以如果你觉得今天你赢了，等到明天就会看到情况变化。
Robby Soave：
Mm-hmm.中文：嗯。
Christian Britschgi：
Well said. Thank you. Well said. Let's clip that. Here's something we haven't talked enough about lately. Anti-white racism. No. Do it every day. No, I did see a pretty interesting initiative by Harmeet Dhillon, that's the Assistant Attorney General for Civil Rights. And she's got, she's done some things I don't agree with, but on this I agree with her very much. She's going after UC San Francisco for just clearly and obviously and manifestly still just admitting people to the medical school because of race. And like the evidence that they're still doing this is just overwhelming. Like you know, the rates for certain minority groups being admitted, like five and 10 times more than...中文：说得好。谢谢。说得好。我们来剪一下。这里有一个我们最近没有讨论够的话题。反对白人种族主义。不。每天都做。不，我确实看到过 Harmeet Dhillon 的一项相当有趣的倡议，她是民权助理总检察长。她做过一些我不同意的事情，但在这一点上我非常同意她。她正在追究旧金山加州大学，因为他们明显、显而易见、公开地仅仅因为种族而录取医学院的学生。而且证据显示他们仍在这样做的情况非常充分。比如你知道，某些少数族裔被录取的比例，比其他人高五倍甚至十倍……
Christian Britschgi：
White and Asian students who have better test scores, and they're doing that, they're using like, you know, personality criteria, leadership skills, communication skills, which would be fine. You can do those things, but you can't do those things as a proxy for race. So it's like, okay, if... You know, if personality and comms or whatever should matter too or matter more than grades, okay, but that would also be the case for Asian students. Then there should be some Asian and white students getting through who have mediocre grades but good.中文：白人和亚洲学生有更好的考试成绩，他们在这么做的时候，他们使用了，比如说，你知道的，性格标准、领导能力、沟通能力，这些都是可以的。你可以用这些标准，但不能把这些标准作为种族的替代。所以就像是，好吧，如果……你知道，如果性格和沟通能力或者其他因素也应该重要，或者比成绩更重要，好吧，但这同样适用于亚洲学生。然后应该有一些成绩中等但能力优秀的亚洲和白人学生能够通过。
Robby Soave：
Like when you, when they're using those things, it just results In the promotion of certain other minority groups. Right. Which the Supreme Court has unequivocally said you can no longer do. Yeah. You can't do it. So I appreciate them actually like enforcing what the Supreme Court says. Do not do this. Yeah. Please stop. And it's so blatant that they're doing it.中文：就像当你，当他们使用那些东西时，它只是导致了对某些其他少数群体的促进。对吧。最高法院已经明确表示你不能再这样做。是的，你不能这样做。所以我真的很欣赏他们实际上在执行最高法院说的，不要这样做。是的，请停止。而且他们这样做得非常明显。
Christian Britschgi：
And they're like, don't ask their race at all. Yeah, right, yeah, have race-blind admissions. But I was thinking about this, because at the same time this is going on, you know, you have all those fucking awful right-wing, you know, abolish merit.中文：他们就像，不要问他们的种族。是啊，对的，做种族盲审。但是我在想这个问题，因为与此同时，你知道，你还有那些该死的可怕右翼，你懂的，废除功绩制度。
Robby Soave：
Jeremy Carl, do you know who that guy is? He was just tweeting at me that I'm stupid.中文：Jeremy Karl，你知道那个人是谁吗？他刚刚在推特上对我说我很愚蠢。
Christian Britschgi：
Our Anglo-American history. Yeah, he got just nuked from orbit on the like, okay, describe what's common to whites then. What are you talking about? And the guy just totally chickened out of saying anything. That's pretty funny. And so he couldn't get. But, you know, him and people like him, you know, see a bunch of Indian students enjoying college life, doing well, and saying, That's an attack on white culture. But at the same time, it's a great triumph of the right and libertarians that we're finally limited the ability of admissions officers to say, we just want more minorities, even if they're not qualified. But like, that's what he wants. Yeah, he just wants more majorities.中文：我们的英美历史。是的，他就像从轨道上被直接核打了一样，好吧，那就描述一下对白人来说常见的是什么。你在说什么？然后那个人完全怂了，什么都不敢说。这挺好笑的。所以他没说成。但你知道，他和像他这样的人，你知道，看到一群印度学生享受大学生活，表现良好，却说，这是对白人文化的攻击。但同时，对于右翼和自由意志主义者来说，这是一个巨大的胜利，我们终于限制了招生官说‘我们只想要更多少数族裔，即使他们不合格’的能力。但那正是他想要的。是的，他只是想要更多的多数派。
Christian Britschgi：
He just wants, yeah. These people are such losers. Yeah, on all sides too. I mean, there was the Nikole Hannah-Jones essay中文：他只是想要，是啊。这些人真是失败者。是的，各方面都是。我是说，有汉娜·妮可·琼斯的那篇文章
Robby Soave：
that's been making the rounds. I don't know if we wanna talk about that. Yeah, we can talk about that. Yeah, it's pretty- I kinda liked the essay, but she totally misdiagnoses the problem. Well, that's what's funny about it. So Nikole Hannah-Jones, a writer at the New York Times, most famous for- Nikole Hannah-Jones. Nikole Hannah-Jones, sorry. Most famous for the 1619 Project. Crustaceans, insects.中文：那一直在流传。我不知道我们是否想谈论那个。是的，我们可以谈论那个。是的，这很——我有点喜欢那篇文章，但她完全误诊了问题。嗯，这就是它的有趣之处。所以，Hannah Nicole Jones，《纽约时报》的作家，最出名的是——Nicole Hannah-Jones。抱歉，是 Nicole Hannah-Jones。最出名的是 1619 计划。甲壳类，昆虫。
Christian Britschgi：
I don't do, you know, I don't see race or three names. Three names is one more than you should be allowed to have. Absolutely. If you have three names,中文：你知道的，我不在意种族，也不在意三个名字。三个名字比你应该拥有的多一个。绝对的。如果你有三个名字，
Robby Soave：
you're a presidential assassin.中文：你是一个总统刺客。
Robby Soave：
I say that, but my children will have the most hyphenated names ever in all of human history. They're not just gonna be Soaves? Uh, no. Dang. We gotta add in the husband name. Great. And maybe we just won't have middle names. Middle name is kind of an unnecessary extravagance. Yeah, it really is. When do you ever use your middle name? I don't even know your middle name. Yeah, I'm not gonna say it either. Yeah. But my husband has— Everyone's ashamed of their middle name, too. Uh, yeah, I'm not gonna say mine. My husband has three names, but that name in there, I don't know if that's a middle name or it goes—中文：我这么说，但我的孩子们将拥有在人类历史上最复杂的连字符名字。他们不会只是叫 Soaves 吧？呃，不会。该死。我们得加上丈夫的姓。太好了。也许我们就不取中间名了。中间名其实有点不必要的奢侈。是啊，确实如此。你什么时候会用到中间名呢？我甚至都不知道你的中间名。是啊，我也不会说的。嗯。但我丈夫有——每个人对自己的中间名也都感到羞愧。呃，是啊，我也不会说我的。我的丈夫有三个名字，但其中的一个名字，我不确定它是中间名还是属于——
Robby Soave：
it's Asian, so I don't know what to do with it exactly. And is that actually the last name that's in first? Right. All I know is that I've not— I've left it off forms sometimes, including for immigration forms, and I've gotten in big trouble. Oh dear. Oh dear.中文：它是亚洲人的，所以我真的不知道该怎么处理它。那那个实际上是把姓放在前面吗？对。我只知道我有时候——我在表格上没有写，包括移民表格，然后我遇到了大麻烦。哦，天哪。哦，天哪。
Christian Britschgi：
Real sticklers. Anyway, Nikole Hannah-Jones. Yes, she wrote an essay about her daughter's experience at a bad New York public school.中文：真的很挑剔。无论如何，尼科尔·汉娜-琼斯。是的，她写了一篇关于她女儿在纽约一所差公立学校经历的文章。
Robby Soave：
That she sent her to because she doesn't want to participate in the segregation of sending your kid to a nice school. Right, so she opted to send her to a... Bad school. Bad school, majority black, majority low-income, public school in New York City. Yeah. And she's the author of the 1619 Project, Nikole Hannah-Jones, she's a New York Times writer known for writing about racial justice.中文：她之所以送她去，是因为她不想参与将孩子送到好学校的隔离对待。对，所以她选择送她去一个……差学校。差学校，主要是黑人学生，低收入家庭为主，纽约市的公立学校。是的。而且她是《1619 计划》的作者 Nikole Hannah-Jones，是《纽约时报》的作家，以撰写种族正义相关内容而知名。
Christian Britschgi：
And originally an education reporter, too. And her daughter had a horrible experience because it was a horrible school and lost a lot of good educational years. She eventually moved to a better school.中文：她原本也是一名教育记者。她的女儿经历了非常糟糕的事情，因为那是一所糟糕的学校，失去了很多好的教育时间。她最终转到了更好的学校。
Robby Soave：
Didn't have homework checked.中文：作业没有被检查。
Christian Britschgi：
Yep. Thought she knew algebra, didn't understand the first thing about it. Uh, thought she was, yeah, had mastery of some subjects and then did very poorly on the standardized tests, and eventually went to a better school, and I'm sure her daughter will do fine in life. Yeah. Uh, given who her parents are, and she seems like a smart kid. But... She seems like a very smart kid. Yeah, she's a lot smarter than her mother, frankly. At some point, she asks, Mom, why did you send me to this school knowing it would be bad?中文：是的。以为她懂代数，其实一点也不懂。呃，以为她在某些科目上很有掌握能力，但在标准化考试中表现很差，后来去了一个更好的学校，我相信她的女儿将来生活会很好。是的，呃，考虑到她的父母是谁，她看起来是个聪明的孩子。但是……她看起来是个非常聪明的孩子。是的，说实话，她比她妈妈聪明多了。在某个时候，她问：“妈妈，你明知道这学校会很糟糕，为什么还送我来这里？”
Robby Soave：
Right, and why do I now have to, you know, be well behind in my education because of decisions you made to feel good about yourself? And Nikole Hannah-Jones kind of admits, you know what, I kind of failed you. Yeah, but this is what's so crazy about this essay is she admits to a personal failing but learns nothing from it. In that, you know, she still is wedded to this idea that, oh, but if only we had more engaged parents and more resources at the bad schools, they would perform better. And people have pointed out like, and she has all these false claims about how funding for schools is segregated by race, you know, the majority black schools get so much less funding. It's not true.中文：对，而且为什么现在我必须因为你为了取悦自己而做出的决定而在学业上大幅落后呢？尼科尔·汉娜-琼斯（Nikole Hannah-Jones）有点承认，你知道吗，其实我有点辜负了你。是的，但这篇文章真正疯狂的地方在于，她承认了个人的失败，却什么也没学到。她仍然坚持这个观点：哦，如果我们有更多积极参与的父母和在那些差学校有更多资源，学生就会表现得更好。人们也指出，她关于学校经费按种族划分的说法全是假的，你知道，所谓黑人占多数的学校得到的经费少得多，这不是真的。
Robby Soave：
No, the good schools that her daughter now attends get less funding per pupil. Yes. And she still considers the enemy to be school choice and letting good students opt out of bad schools. She still sees that as the ultimate bad. And so I just don't understand how you have that experience. And then learn, take no correct lessons with them. At the very least, she could have come after the teachers' unions a little harder. And I know she's had her differences with them in the past. So I know she partly understands the frustration, but like, they just fight the kind of reforms, even if you're not doing school choice, they fight the kind of reforms that can make the school a better place.中文：不，她女儿现在就读的好学校每个学生获得的资金更少。是的。她仍然认为敌人是学校选择权，以及让优秀学生退出差学校。她仍然认为这是最大的坏事。所以我就是不明白，你有那样的经历，然后学到的东西却没有任何正确的教训。至少，她本可以对教师工会更强硬一些。我知道她过去和他们有过分歧，所以我知道她在某种程度上理解那种挫败感，但他们只是反对那种改革，即使你不推行学校选择，他们也反对可以让学校变得更好的改革。
Robby Soave：
Like the teachers at this school are very highly compensated. But what you want is to highly compensate the effective teachers, and not just automatically give everyone pay raises every year. DC schools, and I've said this on a couple of podcasts I've done this week, so apologies if anyone's already heard this from me before, but like DC schools, for instance, are better than New York public school at the low performance level. Like even like our- Worst schools are better than- Our worst schools have made tremendous gains in the last 20 years, largely due to reforms implemented by Michelle Rhee and her successor. She was very controversial back at the time,中文：就像这所学校的老师薪酬非常高。但你想要的是对有效的教师给予高薪，而不是每年自动给每个人加薪。华盛顿特区的学校，我在这周做的几个播客中也说过，所以如果有人之前听过我说的，抱歉，但比如说华盛顿特区的学校，在低表现水平上比纽约公立学校更好。即使我们的最差学校也比以往更好——我们的最差学校在过去 20 年里取得了巨大的进步，这在很大程度上归功于米歇尔·里（Michelle Rhee）及其继任者实施的改革。她当时非常有争议,
Robby Soave：
but she had like a merit pay fight with the teachers unions. She was like, no, we're still gonna do, we're still gonna discipline bad students. Remember when that was a federal mandate from Obama to stop disciplining students because that's racist, which hurts, because then the affluent white students will just exit the school. And the low-income black students who can't just exit the school have their experience wrecked by the fact that there's You know, a small number of rabble-rousers can destroy the classroom environment for a teacher that doesn't know how to handle them. Right.中文：但是她好像和教师工会有过一次绩效工资的争论。她当时就说，不，我们仍然要继续，我们仍然会惩罚不好的学生。还记得那时候奥巴马有一项联邦规定说不要惩罚学生，因为那是种族歧视，这很糟糕，因为富裕的白人学生可以直接退出学校。而那些无法随便换学校的低收入黑人学生，他们的学习体验就会被破坏，因为有少数闹事分子可以破坏课堂环境，而老师又不知道如何处理他们。对吧。
Christian Britschgi：
Um... Yeah, I mean, this is—it strikes the heart of, like, a very foundational liberal belief, which, you know, runs from, like, center-left to far-left, which is, like, Education is the key to building a better new society. Yeah. And the key to better education is just endless taxpayer subsidies. And I don't think either is true. Like at a certain point, schools can't fix all social problems.中文：嗯……是的，我的意思是，这直接触及了一个非常基础的自由主义信念，这种信念，从中左到极左都有，就是教育是建设更好新社会的关键。是的。而更好教育的关键就是无尽的纳税人补贴。我认为这两点都不是真的。比如在某种程度上，学校无法解决所有社会问题。
40:00 - 50:00
Robby Soave：
And certainly money to the schools can't fix all social problems. And so the best thing you can do in those circumstances then is let people opt out of environments that clearly don't work for them. Yes. And that's what, you don't even have to be a radical public education abolitionist, which I am, to believe that. You can just have open enrollment, right? Let people, you know, don't have these district boundaries and let people send their kids to schools that they like. Or have publicly run charter schools, right? Sure. Yeah, so it's, it's, yeah. I mean, there is an idea that pervades liberal education that, for instance, Freddie DeBoer writes about why this is wrong a lot,中文：当然，向学校投入资金不能解决所有社会问题。因此，在这些情况下，你能做的最好的事情就是让人们选择退出那些显然不适合他们的环境。是的。你甚至不必成为一个激进的公立教育废除主义者——我就是——才能相信这一点。你可以实行开放招生，对吧？让人们，不要有这些学区界限，让人们把孩子送到他们喜欢的学校。或者有公立管理的特许学校，对吧？当然。是的，所以，它是，是的。我是说，有一个想法在自由教育中很普遍，例如，弗雷迪·德博尔经常写到为什么这是错误的。
Robby Soave：
and I think he takes it, like, way too far. But the idea that中文：我觉得他把这件事做得，嗯，太过分了。但这个想法是
Christian Britschgi：
You know, not every kid can just, like, be improved by effective teaching. But he thinks—I mean, I don't mean to put words in his mouth—but he comes across as seeming like中文：你知道的，并不是每个孩子都能通过有效的教学得到改善。但他的想法是——我的意思不是替他说话——但他给人的感觉似乎像
Christian Britschgi：
You can never, like, the smart kids will do fine no matter what, and everyone else is gonna flounder no matter what, and... Yeah, that's not, I mean, it's not like schooling has no... Way too far, yeah. Certainly, like, the smart kids can be brought down by bad schooling environments, right? Correct. For sure. Yes. I mean, it's true that, you know, by sixth grade you can tell which kids are gonna struggle at math, and which kids are gonna be gifted at it, and which kids are somewhere in between. Yeah. Um, but... With the right instruction, you can grasp it better or worse. Yeah. And I mean, I don't even know if I quite agree with that in that, you know, lots of people are late bloomers.中文：你永远不能说，像聪明的孩子无论如何都会做得很好，而其他人无论如何都会挣扎，然后……是啊，那不，我的意思是，学校教育不是没有影响……太远了，是的。当然，聪明的孩子也可能被糟糕的学校环境拖累，对吗？没错。肯定的。是的。我的意思是，确实，你知道，到六年级时你就能看出哪些孩子在数学上会挣扎，哪些孩子会有天赋，哪些孩子处在中间。是的。嗯，但是……有了正确的教学，你可以学得更好或更差。是的。我的意思是，我甚至不确定我是否完全同意这一点，因为，你知道，很多人是晚熟型的。
Christian Britschgi：
Lots of people find, you know, you just talked about anyone with their school experience. Some people are like, oh, I loved K through 12. Some people are like, I'm a terrible high school student, but then I really blossomed in college, right? And some people, it's like grad school or whatever, right? Some people, their life turned around when their congressional representative had to send their staffer to go to their prom with them. Best day of their life. And then they went and they fed a chameleon, and watching the chameleon eat the insect. Spark the love of... Biology and classification of animals. Entomology. Yes.中文：很多人会发现，你知道的，你刚才谈到的任何人的学校经历。有些人会说，哦，我喜欢从幼儿园到 12 年级的时光。有些人会说，我是个糟糕的高中生，但后来我在大学里真正开花了，对吧？还有些人，是研究生阶段或者其他时间，对吧？有些人的生活发生了转折，当他们的国会议员不得不派助理陪他们去参加舞会时。那是他们人生中最美好的一天。然后他们去喂变色龙，看着变色龙吃昆虫。激发了他们对...生物学和动物分类学的热爱。昆虫学。是的。
Robby Soave：
Right, that's what you, that's what studies of insects is called, right? I know, etymology is the study of word origins. No, that's... Entomology is the study... That's what I said.中文：对，对的，那就是你所说的，那就是对昆虫的研究叫什么，对吧？我知道，词源学是研究词语起源的。不，那是……昆虫学是研究……那就是我说的。
Christian Britschgi：
Oh, okay. Yeah, okay. Okay, sorry, my erudition was a little...中文：哦，好吧。是的，好吧。好吧，对不起，我的博学有点...
Robby Soave：
A little etymology, entomology humor.中文：一点词源学，昆虫学幽默。
Christian Britschgi：
This joke's got legs. Oh, God, we are having too much fun today. All right, all right.中文：这个笑话很有劲。哦，天啊，我们今天玩得太开心了。好吧，好吧。
Robby Soave：
Getting easily distracted. Yeah, indeed.中文：容易分心。是的，确实如此。
Christian Britschgi：
Well, that was, you know, it is what it is. It is what it is. That should be our motto for this podcast. It just is what it is. It is what it is. It just is. Yeah, A is A. A is A, yes. And you can't take that from a, and if you, if you, Imprisoned us and like connected us to some machine that electrocuted our balls for not saying it, we would still say it. I'm thinking like 1984 now. So like, you know. I know I would- Two plus two is four. No, I would fold like a grease plate. Whatever you want me to say.中文：好吧，那就是，你知道，它就是这样。它就是这样。那应该成为我们这个播客的座右铭。它只是就是这样。它就是这样。它就是这样。是的，A 就是 A。A 就是 A，是的。你不能从一个人身上拿走这个，如果你，如果你，把我们囚禁起来，然后把我们连接到某种机器上，如果我们不说它就会电击我们的蛋蛋，我们仍然会说它。我现在在想《1984》。所以，你知道的。我知道我会——二加二等于四。不，我会像折油板一样放弃。无论你想让我说什么。
Robby Soave：
You can cut off Christian's balls, do whatever you want to him, and I will still say that two plus two is four and A is A. Do your worst to Christian.中文：你可以切掉克里斯蒂安的睾丸，对他做任何你想做的事，但我仍然会说二加二等于四，A 就是 A。尽你所能对克里斯蒂安最残忍的事情吧。
Christian Britschgi：
Do your worst. But you can take from a man everything that makes him a man, from this man. And you will still stick up for what is true and right. I will stand by what's right. No, I would denounce you. And that's my promise. They could beat you. They could bloody you. They could feed you to the chameleon. Yeah, but that wouldn't change your attitude one bit. It would not. No. That's really admirable. I'm not gonna call you a hero because I know you hate that.中文：尽管你想怎么做。但你可以从一个人身上夺走一切让他成为男人的东西，从这个人那里。你依然会为真理和正义挺身而出。我会坚持正确的。不，我会谴责你。这是我的承诺。他们可以打你。他们可以把你弄得血流满面。他们可以把你喂给变色龙。是的，但那一点也改变不了你的态度。不会的。不会。这真的很令人钦佩。我不会称你为英雄，因为我知道你讨厌那个。
Robby Soave：
You know what? You're welcome.中文：你知道吗？不客气。
Christian Britschgi：
You're welcome. No, I would fold like a grease plate. I would give up all the other 9-11 conspirators, whatever, you know, so. Well, speaking of man-on-man violence, let's move to Fight Club. Okay, very good.中文：不客气。不，我会像油盘一样认输。我会出卖其他所有 9-11 的阴谋者，不管怎样，你知道的，就这样。嗯，说到男性之间的暴力，我们来谈谈《搏击俱乐部》。好，非常好。
Robby Soave：
Yes. Okay, we both rewatched it. Yep, you gave me this homework assignment. I fulfilled it. We fulfilled it too.中文：是的。好吧，我们俩都重新看了一遍。是的，你给了我这个家庭作业。我完成了它。我们也完成了它。
Christian Britschgi：
I... okay. I had complicated thoughts. Okay, yeah, so just first open question. Synopsis of Fight Club? I think people know it. No, I'm not asking you to give the synopsis of Fight Club. We couldn't talk about it if we wanted to. Does it hold up, I guess, is my first question. I have a hard time answering that question with an easy yes or no. It was like, for me, it was like partly no and partly yes. What's your answer? Yeah, I feel the exact same way. Why don't you elaborate? Because there's actually a quote about Fight Club中文：我……好吧。我有些复杂的想法。好吧，是的，所以先问一个开放性的问题。《搏击俱乐部》的概要？我想大家都知道它。不，我不是在让你给《搏击俱乐部》的概要。如果我们想谈，我们也不能谈。它还站得住脚吗，我想，这是我的第一个问题。我很难用简单的“是”或“不是”来回答这个问题。对我来说，它有点像，不是，也有点是。你的回答呢？是的，我的感觉完全一样。你为什么不详细说说？因为实际上有一句关于《搏击俱乐部》的名言
Robby Soave：
I want to find here. Okay. So, yeah. I mean,中文：我想在这里找到。好吧。所以，是的。我是说，
Christian Britschgi：
I definitely, watching it, like I enjoyed watching it again. I enjoyed the movie. I certainly think it's like anti-consumerist politics are like very stupid, but it's also not, Those are the politics of the bad guy, and so it doesn't really necessarily endorse that worldview. Well, this is what's hard for me to wrap my head around in the story, is like, is the Fight Club cult and Tyler Durden, is he the villain or not? I mean, I think he very clearly is the villain. But there's never really a articulate criticism or alternative proposed to... The protagonist will say, I think this has gone too far. This is not what I wanted. This is not what I wanted to do.中文：我绝对地，在看它的时候，我喜欢再次观看它。我喜欢这部电影。我当然认为它那种反消费主义的政治非常愚蠢，但它也不是，那些是坏人的政治，所以它并不一定支持那种世界观。嗯，这在故事中让我很难理解的问题是，斗争俱乐部的邪教和泰勒·德顿，他是恶棍吗？我的意思是，我认为他显然是恶棍。但从未真正提出过清晰的批评或替代方案……主角会说，我认为这已经走得太远了。这不是我想要的。这不是我想做的。
Christian Britschgi：
Tyler Durden has taken control of his life. He's starting to see through his BS. It's certainly not like a wholesale rejection of it, but it's definitely not endorsement of it. Well... What's your quote? You got your quote? Yes, I do. It's from Roger Ebert, the, you know, obviously famed movie critic. And he says, you know, you watched it a couple times. He's like, I admire it. And on multiple rewatches, he's like, I admired its skill even more and its thought even less, which is exactly how I feel about it. It is, like, it's a very fun, interesting movie. Scoot it too far this way. Scoot more this way. There you go. Okay.中文：泰勒·德顿已经掌控了自己的生活。他开始看透自己的胡说八道。这当然不是完全的否定，但肯定也不是认可。嗯……你们的引用呢？你找到引用了吗？是的，我找到了。是罗杰·艾伯特的，你知道，显然是著名影评人。他说，你知道，你看了几次。他说，我很欣赏这部电影。在多次重看后，他说，我更加欣赏它的技巧，对它的思想则欣赏得更少，这正是我对它的感觉。这是一部非常有趣、很吸引人的电影。把它这样挪得太远。再挪挪这个方向。就这样。好了。
Christian Britschgi：
It's a very fun and interesting movie.中文：这是一部非常有趣和好看的电影。
Christian Britschgi：
It's got a good aesthetic, good vibe. It's kind of got like- It has a good aesthetic. That's something I was gonna highlight.中文：它有很好的美学，很好的氛围。它有点像——它有很好的美学。这是我本来想强调的。
Christian Britschgi：
I like the look and feel of it.中文：我喜欢它的外观和手感。
Christian Britschgi：
I like the, again, I can see and understand the entire movie,中文：我喜欢，再次，我可以看到并理解整部电影，
Christian Britschgi：
even when it takes place in basements or at night,中文：即使它发生在地下室或夜间，
Christian Britschgi：
they have, you can see,中文：他们有，你可以看到，
Christian Britschgi：
the fighting choreography is pretty good.中文：打斗动作设计得相当好。
Christian Britschgi：
You hear the cracking of knuckles and the blood中文：你听到关节的爆裂声和血液的声音
Robby Soave：
and the black eye. Shattering of teeth, yeah.中文：还有黑眼圈。牙齿碎裂，是的。
Robby Soave：
All of those aspects of it are very strong.中文：它的所有这些方面都非常强大。
Robby Soave：
Yeah, it's got like, kind of like emo aesthetics, right?中文：是的，它有点像，某种像情绪化审美，对吧？
Robby Soave：
You know, the like, almost like Nightmare Before Christmas house that they're in. Yes, the house looks ridiculous.中文：你知道的，那个几乎像《圣诞夜惊魂》里的房子。他们就在里面。是的，那房子看起来很荒谬。
Robby Soave：
Like, shock rock soundtrack. Yes. Yeah.中文：就像，震撼摇滚的原声带。是的。嗯。
Robby Soave：
Looks, sounds great.中文：看起来不错，听起来也很好。
Robby Soave：
I think Edward Norton and Brad Pitt give two really extraordinary performances.中文：我认为爱德华·诺顿和布拉德·皮特的表演都非常出色。
Robby Soave：
I think the movie would not have worked中文：我认为这部电影不会成功
Robby Soave：
with different people not trying as hard.中文：和不同的人相比，不那么努力。
Robby Soave：
I think they have real charisma.中文：我认为他们真的很有魅力。
Robby Soave：
Their relationship is very interesting.中文：他们的关系非常有趣。
Robby Soave：
Again, the style they chose for Brad Pitt in the movie is very effective.中文：同样，他们为布拉德·皮特在电影中选择的风格非常有效。
Christian Britschgi：
Brad Pitt is very, very, very good in this.中文：布拉德·皮特在这部作品中非常非常非常出色。
Christian Britschgi：
I think the movie is far more interesting before the twist中文：我认为电影在剧情反转之前更加有趣
Christian Britschgi：
that they are the same person, which...中文：他们是同一个人，这…
Christian Britschgi：
Actually, that is part does not, I can't remember if I thought that was lazy when I saw this movie as a kid.中文：实际上，那部分并没有，我不记得我小时候看这部电影时是否认为那是懒惰。
Christian Britschgi：
It certainly feels lazy now. Yeah. Hackneyed. Yeah.中文：现在确实感觉很懒。是啊。陈词滥调。是啊。
Christian Britschgi：
To, ooh, split personalities. Right. I generally don't like split personalities中文：哦，分裂人格。对。我通常不喜欢分裂人格
Christian Britschgi：
because it just deprives our characters of agencies.中文：因为这只是剥夺了我们角色的自主性。
Christian Britschgi：
Like, things just happening to our main character.中文：就像事情只是发生在我们的主角身上。
Christian Britschgi：
And their relationship with each other中文：以及他们彼此之间的关系
Christian Britschgi：
and like Edward Norton's position in the Fight Club hierarchy中文：就像爱德华·诺顿在《搏击俱乐部》等级中的位置一样
Christian Britschgi：
is just much more interesting中文：只是要有趣得多
Christian Britschgi：
before you find out they're the same person.中文：在你发现他们是同一个人之前。
Christian Britschgi：
I think it robs the... The conflict all of a sudden doesn't feel... I mean, it's resolved when Edward Norman... Wait, you're not holding the gun, I'm holding the gun.中文：我觉得它剥夺了……冲突突然间感觉不一样了……我的意思是，当 Edward Norman……等一下，你没拿枪，我拿着枪。
Robby Soave：
You don't exist. Right.中文：你不存在。对吗。
Christian Britschgi：
Which is kind of a cheap... Yeah, it's interesting. It both, I don't know, I have a- I think it would've been cool if they were not the same character.中文：这有点廉价……是的，这很有趣。我不知道，我觉得如果他们不是同一个角色会更酷。
Robby Soave：
I have, I'm of two minds on it. Because on the one hand, it does add a good kind of like momentum to the end of the movie, where he realizes he's been at the center of all these things. Yes. And all these things that didn't make sense throughout the movie, like kind of come together.中文：我有，我对此有两种想法。一方面，它确实为电影的结尾增加了一种很好的推动力，在那里他意识到自己一直处于所有这些事情的中心。是的。而且所有这些在整部电影中本来没有意义的事情，似乎都聚合在了一起。
Christian Britschgi：
Yeah. So I like that, but then you're right, it's like, it could have been more tense if he still is, in fact, facing off against this character The Matrix is a new era of political science, and the world is a new era of political science. I mean, it's not meant to be realistic, but it never was. Well, but it kind of operates under a... It's assuming everything else is realistic. Yeah. Right, his boring corporate office job, et cetera. Yeah. Like, you know, the contrast between that and what's going on at the Fight Club is really interesting. This sort of recruitment of the idea that... It's kind of a creepy idea that, you know, at every restaurant there's a pissed-off waiter who's...中文：是的。所以我喜欢那样，但你说得对，如果他实际上仍然在面对这个角色的话，情节可能会更紧张。《黑客帝国》是政治学的新纪元，世界也是政治学的新纪元。我的意思是，它本来就不是为了真实，但它从来不是。嗯，但它有点依赖于……假设其他一切都是现实的。对的，他无聊的企业办公室工作，等等。是的，你知道，那和《搏击俱乐部》里发生的事情之间的对比非常有趣。这种关于……的理念的某种招募。这是一个有点令人毛骨悚然的想法，你知道，每家餐馆都有一个生气的服务员...
Christian Britschgi：
Pissing in your soup and is part of an underground Fight Club. And the evolution from the Fight Club to the doomsday cult slash radical terrorist organization is very interesting. The kind of, the religion of it for,中文：往你的汤里撒尿，并且是地下搏击俱乐部的一部分。从搏击俱乐部发展到世界末日邪教兼激进恐怖组织的演变非常有趣。这种，其宗教性质是为了，
Robby Soave：
his name is Robert Paulson. His name is Robert Paulson. That is still so great. I remember loving that as a kid. That was still great. Yeah. I think the biggest, the biggest like disappointment中文：他的名字是罗伯特·保尔森。他的名字是罗伯特·保尔森。那仍然很棒。我记得小时候很喜欢那个。那仍然很棒。是的。我觉得最大的，最大的失望
Christian Britschgi：
for me watching it again is like, yeah, the, The, like, ethos of the Fight Club is, like, not convincing from the beginning. Like, I don't find Brad Pitt, like, cool from the beginning. I find him very cool.中文：对我来说，再看一遍它就像，是的，那个，那个，像，《搏击俱乐部》的精神从一开始就不令人信服。就像，我从一开始就觉得布拉德·皮特并不酷。我觉得他非常酷。
50:00 - 60:00
Robby Soave：
Yeah, he's like, you know, I- I find him so cool! He's so cool! It's so juvenile, right? Like, at the very beginning where it's like his job is to be a projectionist, and he, like, splices in pornography to, like, the Disney cartoons, and it's like,中文：是啊，他就是那种，你知道的，我——我觉得他太酷了！他太酷了！这真的很幼稚，对吧？比如一开始的时候，他的工作是放映员，然后他会把色情片剪接进迪士尼的动画里，然后就像是，
Christian Britschgi：
Whoa, badass! Yeah. Or then like, yeah, they're anti-consumerists, but they're also like... The anti-consumerists is stupid. They're anti-consumerists, but they're also smoking cigarettes and drinking Busch Light, and it's like, okay, well, that's okay.中文：哇，真厉害！是啊。或者说，是的，他们反消费主义，但他们也像……说反消费主义很蠢。他们反消费主义，但他们也抽烟喝布什啤酒，然后就是，好吧，那也没关系。
Robby Soave：
Yeah. But again, it's like, I don't know if that's necessarily a criticism of the movie, if the movie is also making fun of this.中文：是啊。但再说一次，就像，我不知道这是否一定是在批评这部电影，如果电影本身也在取笑这一点的话。
Christian Britschgi：
Right. But it's unclear. And so this is why I find the movie's message, to the degree it has one, very muddled. Because at the very end, the terrorist plot, the Fight Club, they put a bunch of bombs in the bottom of corporate offices because they're gonna wreck the economy. Gonna erase credit card debt. Wipe away all the credit card debt中文：对。但这不清楚。所以这就是为什么我觉得这部电影的意义，如果它有的话，非常混乱。因为在最后，恐怖主义阴谋，搏击俱乐部，他们在公司办公楼的地下放了一堆炸弹，因为他们要破坏经济。要清除信用卡债务。清除所有的信用卡债务
Robby Soave：
and set everything back to zero. Such a half-baked left-wing plan. Or maybe it's very far right. We can talk about that. And yeah, so the credit card debt will be wiped away and men can be men again, right?中文：并把一切都归零。这样的左翼计划真是半吊子。或者也许它非常右翼。我们可以谈谈这个。是的，所以信用卡债务将被抹去，男人们可以再次做回男人，对吧？
Christian Britschgi：
And so he triumphs over the cult leader part of his brain that sets all this up. And he says that, by the way, he says, imagine hunting and killing your own food.中文：于是他战胜了那部分大脑里的邪教头目，它安排了这一切。他顺便说，他说，想象一下狩猎并杀死你自己的食物。
Robby Soave：
Right. Sweet. Like Brad Pitt said, yeah, this is so stupid. Right. But so he defeats Tyler Durden, in his own mind at least, but then the terrorist plot succeeds. They blow up all the buildings and it's played like as a beautiful thing. He watches it with, you know, his girlfriend. Where is My Mind plays. Yeah, right. It's supposed to be like a nice, kind of happy ending, but it's also the triumph of this ideology that the movie was just like 10 seconds ago kind of rejecting.中文：对。太棒了。就像布拉德·皮特说的，是的，这太愚蠢了。对。但他在自己的脑海中至少战胜了泰勒·德顿，但随后恐怖分子的阴谋成功了。他们炸毁了所有的建筑，这场景被描绘得像是美好的事情。他和他的女朋友一起看。播放的是《Where is My Mind》。是的，对。这本应该是一个美好、稍微有点幸福的结局，但它也象征着十秒钟前电影刚刚拒绝的那种意识形态的胜利。
Christian Britschgi：
It doesn't really... It doesn't really work. It actually works better at... the author, and I want to get into some of the author's intentions, but says that he actually like... it's a joke, but he actually kind of liked the Chinese censorship version. Have you ever seen this? So in the Chinese censorship version, the one for Chinese audiences, they're not going to allow a movie that shows a successful terrorist attack. Oh, yeah, sure. So instead, right before the buildings blow up, it cuts to black and there's a title card that says, the authorities apprehended the terrorist behind the plot and arrested Tyler Durden. Nice. And he actually kind of likes that better. Yeah, that's hilarious.中文：它实际上……它实际上并不奏效。它实际上在……作者那里效果更好，我想谈谈作者的一些意图，但他说他实际上喜欢……这是一个笑话，但他实际上有点喜欢中国审查版。你见过这个吗？在面向中国观众的中国审查版中，他们不会允许播放展示恐怖袭击成功的电影。哦，是的，当然。所以相反，就在建筑物爆炸之前，画面切黑，然后出现一个标题卡，上面写着，当局抓获了幕后恐怖分子并逮捕了泰勒·德登。不错。他实际上更喜欢这个版本。是的，太搞笑了。
Christian Britschgi：
re, the orderlies at the mental hospital are like also members of the cult and like are gonna break him out or something. Something like that. That's kinda fun.中文：嗯，精神病院的护工好像也是邪教的成员，好像要把他救出去什么的。大概就是这样。那挺有趣的。
Robby Soave：
And that's how it ends. Yeah. Which is kinda cool. Interesting.中文：这就是结局。是啊。这有点酷。有趣。
Christian Britschgi：
Yeah. Uh, yeah, you describe it as a left-wing movie, but it's funny because it's like, it go, it puts a lot of effort into making fascism look cool, right? Yes. The Fight Club is a fascist institution, right? Sure. To an almost like, I just don't just say that cause like, oh, they're glorifying violence, but like even a lot of the particulars, right, is like, you know, submitting your individuality中文：嗯。呃，是的，你把它描述为一部左翼电影，但很有趣的是，它花了很多功夫让法西斯主义看起来很酷，对吧？是的。《搏击俱乐部》是一个法西斯机构，对吧？当然。几乎可以说，我不是随便说的，因为哦，他们在美化暴力，而是很多细节，比如说，你知道，屈从于你的个性。
Robby Soave：
to a charismatic cult leader who can't be, you know, questioned, right, and then also like, has like some vague plot that then you are like, you know, working towards the Fuhrer, like, you know, doing all the work for him. And it's about, you know, and who joins the cult, it's like men who feel emasculated by, Right, there's a lot of complaints about feminization, that whole thing. Yeah, I mean, the character, the movie starts with the character going to a, to a cancer, uh, like, support group, right? I mean, the movie, in that front, the movie's also very, it's interesting in the light of,中文：给一个有魅力的邪教领袖，他是不能被，你知道，被质疑的，对吧，然后还像，有一些模糊的计划，然后你就像，你知道，为元首工作，嗯，你知道，为他做所有的工作。它关于，你知道，谁加入了邪教，像是那些觉得自己被阉割的男人，对吧，有很多关于女性化的抱怨，整个事情。是的，我的意思是，这个角色，电影开始时这个角色去一个，去一个癌症，呃，像，支持小组，对吧？我的意思是，从那方面来看，这部电影也非常，它很有趣，在这个背景下，
Christian Britschgi：
you know, where the culture has moved now, like, this could have been a gayer movie. Uh, like, there are kind of slight undertones of, like, Homo eroticism in it. Yeah, with the Jared Leto character. Yes.中文：你知道，现在文化已经发展到这种地步了，比如，这本来可以是一部更有同志元素的电影。呃，里面有一些轻微的、像是同性恋情感的潜台词。是的，就是贾里德·莱托扮演的那个角色。是的。
Robby Soave：
Who's like kind of a pretty boy, and then he just like absolutely destroys his face. Right, because he's jealous of him. And he wants to destroy something beautiful. That's what he says. But he seems clearly jealous of Brad Pitt's affection for him. Yeah, right. And just the whole, there's a line about just, there's no women involved in this at all. You know, the rejection of women. Right. Obviously the girlfriend figure played by Helena Bonham Carter,中文：他有点像个帅哥，然后他就完全毁了自己的脸。对，因为他嫉妒他。他想毁掉一些美好的东西。这就是他说的。但他显然嫉妒布拉德·皮特对他的好感。对，而且整段台词里完全没有涉及女性，你知道的，就是对女性的拒绝。明显的是由海伦娜·博纳姆·卡特饰演的女朋友角色。
Christian Britschgi：
she does a great job too, but she's kind of like a, Uh, she almost kind of reinforces that. Yeah. Because she's such an untraditional woman anyway. Right. And, and they're very like, she's not to participate in this. She's want nothing to do with this. She's kind of there just for like sexual release for the Brad Pitt character, who's actually the Edward Norton character. Yeah. But there's like, another woman is not what we need in our lives. We don't want anything to do with women. The author is gay.中文：她也做得很好，但她有点像，呃，她几乎有点在强化这一点。是的。因为她本身就是一个非常非传统的女性，对吧。而且，他们非常像，她不想参与这个。她根本不想和这个有任何关系。她有点只是为了给布拉德·皮特扮演的角色提供性释放，而实际上角色是爱德华·诺顿扮演的。是的。但有另一个女人并不是我们生活中需要的东西。我们不想和女人有任何关系。作者是同性恋。
Robby Soave：
The author of Fight Club is gay.中文：《搏击俱乐部》的作者是同性恋。
Christian Britschgi：
And that makes it, and I wouldn't say the book is like, from what I recall, even more pronounced on this, but today you could see it being like more leaning into that even more. Like there's this quasi-romantic moment, he kisses him on the hand, and then uses that to point out Oh, the chemical burn on him? Yeah, right. Oh, which is a great scene. Yeah. And then I love when they play all those in flashbacks and they show him just doing it to himself. Right, yeah. But then, yeah, what do you take away from it? This is just a crazy person who should be locked up. Right. Yeah, I mean, I guess if they were actually separate characters, then it would be more gay, right? Yes.中文：这就达到了效果，我不认为这本书是这样，从我记得的情况来看，甚至没有那么明显，但今天你可以看到它更加倾向于这种感觉。就像有一个半浪漫的瞬间，他吻了他的手，然后用这个来指出‘哦，他身上的化学烧伤？哦，对。’哦，这场戏很棒。是的。然后我很喜欢他们在闪回中播放那些片段，展示他只是对自己这么做。对，是的。但是，然后，你从中得出了什么结论？这只是一个应该被关起来的疯狂人。对。是的，我的意思是，如果他们实际上是两个不同的角色，那会更同性恋，对吧？是的。
Christian Britschgi：
I think it would just be more interesting if they were separate characters. I think it would be... I think that ruins it a little bit, that, oh... Because A, that's a lazy, cheap, hackneyed, most overused kind of...中文：我觉得如果他们是独立的角色会更有趣。我觉得会……我觉得那有点破坏了……因为，啊……因为 A，那是一种懒惰、廉价、陈词滥调、最被滥用的那种……
Christian Britschgi：
Tyler Durden, Brad Pitt, Tyler Durden is a crazy person and has to be stopped, would be more interesting if it was an external force. Yeah, I agree with that. That would add, that would actually probably add more drama to the end. And it would make, it would offer the opportunity to make the movie more coherent because you should have some reason for turning against him.中文：泰勒·德登，布拉德·皮特，泰勒·德登是一个疯狂的人，必须被阻止，如果是外部力量会更有趣。是的，我同意。那会增加，实际上可能会为结局增加更多戏剧性。而且这样会提供机会让电影更连贯，因为你应该有一些理由去反对他。
Robby Soave：
Right. Why do you, when did, okay, when did Edward Norton, if it's just Edward Norton, when did he spend all this time learning about how you can make explosives from soap? Right, how did he blow up his condo? Right, where did, he's off camp, he's just doing so much,中文：对。为什么你，什么时候，好，爱德华·诺顿什么时候，如果只是爱德华·诺顿，他什么时候花那么多时间学习如何用肥皂制造炸药？对，他是怎么炸掉他的公寓的？对，他去哪儿了，他离开营地了，他只是做了很多事，
Christian Britschgi：
and he's in his sleep, studying and absorbing high levels of information about cult formation, and I mean, maybe with the cult formation, I guess the idea is that it would be so easy to start this cult because, There's so many disaffected men who just hate their office jobs or their low-level jobs and hate the women in their lives who don't understand them. And just, you know, what if I would just, I would hunt, I'd eat what I kill and blah, blah, blah. And it'd be so easy to convince people to like, give up, you know, toothpaste for, which is not easy to do and is not actually compelling when you start doing it to all but a handful of like weird survivalist outdoorsy people. Right.中文：他在睡觉时，正在研究并吸收关于邪教形成的高强度信息，我的意思是，也许关于邪教形成，想法是创立这个邪教会非常容易，因为有太多不满的男人，他们讨厌办公室工作或者低层次的工作，讨厌那些不理解他们的女性。然后就是，你知道，如果我只是，我会去猎杀，我会吃我捕获的东西，等等。这么说说吧，说服人们放弃，比如说牙膏，是很容易的，这其实并不容易做到，也并不真正有吸引力，除非你只是针对少数几个怪异的生存主义者或户外爱好者。对吧。
Christian Britschgi：
I mean, it speaks to the fundamental fear, right, of the 90s. Yeah. That life is too good, and we're now too soft, bored. This is the office space, kind of the Matrix.中文：我的意思是，这触及了 90 年代的根本恐惧，对吧。是的。那种生活太好了，而我们现在变得太软弱、无聊。这就是办公室空间，有点像《黑客帝国》里的感觉。
Robby Soave：
All of which came out in the same year.中文：所有这些都是在同一年出版的。
Christian Britschgi：
Yes. Office space, Matrix, Fight Club, all 1999 films. Amazing.中文：是的。《办公室空间》、《黑客帝国》、《搏击俱乐部》，都是 1999 年的电影。太棒了。
Robby Soave：
Yeah. And all circling, or tackling, or depicting中文：是的。还有所有的盘旋、处理或者描绘
Christian Britschgi：
The Matrix isn't really actually about that at all, but dealing with an aesthetic of this bore, I mean, I guess The Matrix is, it's tackling it from a different angle, but it's saying this, right, this soft office place exists, it can't even be real. It's actually, it's a lie. This is how they're keeping you content in your little cage by making it by lining the walls of the cage with this suffocating, bland office space type thing so you don't see the bars of your cage. Right. Yeah, and it's interesting. It's like all those movies, they have the same foil, as you say.中文：《黑客帝国》其实根本不是关于那个的，但它处理的是这种无聊的美学，我的意思是，我猜《黑客帝国》确实是，它只是从不同的角度去探讨，但它在说这个，对吧，这个柔和的办公场所存在，它甚至不可能是真实的。实际上，它是一个谎言。这就是他们如何通过用这种令人窒息、平淡的办公空间类型事物来衬托笼子的墙壁，让你对自己的笼子视而不见，从而让你在小小的笼子里感到满足。对吧。是的，这很有趣。就像你说的，那些电影都有相同的对照。
Robby Soave：
lease of the latest episode of Fight Club, the latest episode of the latest episode of the latest episode of the latest episode of the latest episode of the latest episode of the latest episode of the latest episode of the latest episode of the latest episode of the latest episode of the latest episode of the latest episode of the latest episode of the latest episode of the latest episode of the latest episode of the latest episode of the latest episode of the latest episode of the latest episode of the latest episode of the latest episode of the latest episode of the latest episode of the latest episode of the latest episode of the latest episode of the latest episode of the latest episode of the latest episode of the latest episode of the latest episode of the latest episode of the latest episode of the latest episode of the latest episode of the latest episode of the latest episode of the latest episode of the latest episode of the latest episode of the latest episode of the latest episode of the latest episode of the latest episode of the latest episode of the latest episode of the latest episode of the latest episode of the latest episode of the latest episode of the latest episode of the latest episode of the latest episode of the latest episode of the latest episode of the latest episode of the latest episode of the latest episode of the latest episode of the latest episode of the latest episode of the latest episode of the latest episode of the latest episode of the latest episode of the latest episode of the latest episode of the latest episode of the latest episode of the latest episode of the latest episode of the latest episode of the latest episode of the latest episode of the latest episode of the latest episode of the latest episode of the latest episode of the latest episode of the latest episode of the latest episode of the latest episode of the中文：租赁最新一集的搏击俱乐部，最新一集的最新一集，最新一集的最新一集，最新一集的最新一集，最新一集的最新一集，最新一集的最新一集，最新一集的最新一集，最新一集的最新一集，最新一集的最新一集，最新一集的最新一集，最新一集的最新一集，最新一集的最新一集，最新一集的最新一集，最新一集的最新一集，最新一集的最新一集，最新一集的最新一集，最新一集的最新一集，最新一集的最新一集，最新一集的最新一集，最新一集的最新一集，最新一集的最新一集，最新一集的最新一集，最新一集的最新一集，最新一集的最新一集，最新一集的最新一集，最新一集的最新一集，最新一集的最新一集，最新一集的最新一集，最新一集的最新一集，最新一集的最新一集，最新一集的最新一集，最新一集的最新一集，最新一集的最新一集，最新一集的最新一集，最新一集的最新一集，最新一集的最新一集，最新一集的最新一集。 最新一集最新一集 最新一集 最新一集 最新一集 最新一集 最新一集 最新一集 最新一集 最新一集 最新一集 最新一集 最新一集 最新一集 最新一集 最新一集 最新一集 最新一集 最新一集 最新一集 最新一集 最新一集 最新一集 最新一集 最新一集 最新一集 最新一集 最新一集 最新一集 最新一集 最新一集 最新一集 最新一集 最新一集 最新一集 最新一集 最新一集 最新一集 最新一集 最新一集最新一集 最新一集 最新一集 最新一集 最新一集 最新一集 最新一集 最新一集 最新一集 最新一集 最新一集 最新一集 最新一集 最新一集 最新一集 最新一集 最新一集 最新一集 最新一集 最新一集 最新一集 最新一集 最新一集 最新一集 最新一集 最新一集 最新一集 最新一集 最新一集 最新一集 最新一集 最新一集 最新一集 最新一集 最新一集 最新一集 最新一集 最新一集 最新一集 最新一集 最新一集 最新一集 最新一集
Robby Soave：
I mean, Office Space has the stupidest one of all, which is like, oh, he likes construction work better than office work. No, I love Office Space.中文：我的意思是，《办公室空间》有所有电影里最蠢的一个设定，那就是，哦，他喜欢建筑工作胜过办公室工作。不，我喜欢《办公室空间》.
Robby Soave：
I'm sure there are some people who prefer construction work to office work.中文：我确信有些人更喜欢建筑工作而不是办公室工作。
Robby Soave：
I don't know that that's gonna be true in the average.中文：我不知道这在平均情况下是否会是真的。
Christian Britschgi：
Yeah, and then like, we don't see the character 10 years later when his back's given out,中文：是啊，然后，比如说，我们 10 年后也没有看到这个角色，当时他的背已经出问题了，
Christian Britschgi：
and like, well, this is all he can really do, right? Yeah.中文：而且，嗯，好吧，这就是他真正能做的了，对吧？是的。
Robby Soave：
And then, you know- It's a funny movie, I agree, but-中文：然后，你知道的——我同意，这是部有趣的电影，但是——
Robby Soave：
I love Office Space, but, and then, yeah, The Matrix is- My stapler. There it is.中文：我喜欢《办公室风云》，但是，然后，是的，《黑客帝国》是——我的订书机。就在那儿。
Christian Britschgi：
There's a- We're not the building.中文：那里有一个——我们不是那栋建筑。
Robby Soave：
I love his mutterings.中文：我喜欢他的咕哝。
Robby Soave：
There's an astral.中文：有一个星体的。
Christian Britschgi：
Yeah, then The Matrix is, I don't know,中文：是啊，然后《黑客帝国》就是，我不知道，
Christian Britschgi：
there's a greater world that's been hidden from you, right? And you have to- That world is worse. Right. What's interesting about The Matrix is, and that's in the first movie,中文：有一个更大的世界一直被隐藏着，对吧？而你必须——那个世界更糟。对。《黑客帝国》有趣的地方是，这在第一部电影里就有体现，
Christian Britschgi：
a conflict of one of the villainous characters,中文：其中一个反派角色的冲突,
Christian Britschgi：
the Joe Pantoliano character, who's like,中文：乔·潘托利亚莫的角色，就像，
Christian Britschgi：
fuck this, I've seen the real world. I wanna live in The Matrix.中文：去他妈的，我已经见过真实世界。我想住在《黑客帝国》。
Christian Britschgi：
I don't care that this steak I'm eating isn't real.中文：我不在乎我吃的这块牛排不是真的。
60:00 - 70:00
Christian Britschgi：
Out there, you're sipping a bowl of gruel in a world where squid-like robots are vivisecting people.中文：在外面，你正在啜饮一碗稀粥，在一个鱿鱼状机器人正在活体解剖人类的世界里。
Christian Britschgi：
The real, the place of the human, we live in a sweaty cave. Plug me back into the Matrix. This is better.中文：真实的，人类的地方，我们生活在一个汗流浃背的洞穴里。把我重新接入矩阵。这更好。
Christian Britschgi：
And our heroes have to be like, but no, it's real. We want to be where, you have to be on the side of what's real, not this fake construction. So it's interesting in that way.中文：我们的英雄必须像，但不，这是现实。我们想要在现实的一边，而不是这个虚假的构造。所以从这个角度来看，这很有趣。
Christian Britschgi：
Yeah. It is also interesting that all these movies kind of end with a... they come out two years before 9-11. They also, like, the climax is a terrorist attack of sorts. Yeah.中文：是的。同样有趣的是，这些电影几乎都以……它们在 911 前两年上映。它们的高潮部分也都是某种恐怖袭击。是的。
Robby Soave：
So that's most obvious with Fight Club. They blow up all the buildings, right? But in The Matrix, they, like, storm the big office building. They storm a building. Yeah. To get back Morpheus.中文：所以这一点在《搏击俱乐部》中最明显。他们炸毁了所有的建筑，对吧？但是在《黑客帝国》中，他们，好像是，冲进那栋大办公楼。他们冲进一座建筑。是的。为了救回墨菲斯。
Robby Soave：
And then even office space, eventually they just burned the office down. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. That's interesting.中文：然后甚至办公室空间，最终他们只是把办公室烧了。是的。嗯哼。是的。那很有趣。
Robby Soave：
It's just, it's now we're 26 years past that. Right.中文：只是，现在已经过去了 26 年。对吧。
Robby Soave：
Like the idea of just a kind of boring,中文：就像那种有点无聊的感觉
Robby Soave：
but good paying secure job being alienating.中文：但薪水高、稳定的工作令人疏远。
Robby Soave：
Well, it's funny because it's like... It's such a 90s idea.中文：嗯，这很有趣，因为就像... 这是一个典型的 90 年代的想法。
Robby Soave：
It totally is. And you know the reason why is because the conflict people felt like, or at least the, I don't know, the viscera, you know, the excitement that's missing from your lives and your boring corporate jobs.中文：完全是的。你知道原因是什么吗？因为人们感受到的冲突，或者至少是，我不知道，内心深处的东西，你们生活中缺失的兴奋，以及你们无聊的公司工作。
Robby Soave：
Now we have that in our boring corporate jobs because we're all fighting each other on social media, right?中文：现在我们在无聊的公司工作中有了这一点，因为我们都在社交媒体上互相争斗，对吧？
Christian Britschgi：
The internet has become a toxic evil place.中文：互联网已经变成了一个有毒的邪恶地方。
Robby Soave：
The internet is the Fight Club.中文：互联网就是搏击俱乐部。
Robby Soave：
The world is a less safe place just in general.中文：总的来说，世界变得不那么安全了。
Robby Soave：
From a foreign threat, I mean, the 90s is before terrorism was a well-known phenomenon.中文：我是说，从外国威胁来看，90 年代是在恐怖主义成为广为人知的现象之前。
Robby Soave：
It's at the height of good relations中文：它处于良好关系的巅峰
Robby Soave：
between the US and Russia and China.中文：在美国、俄罗斯和中国之间。
Christian Britschgi：
I was reading about how Vladimir Putin中文：我正在阅读关于弗拉基米尔·普京的内容
Christian Britschgi：
tried to warn the US government about a 9-11-style attack.中文：试图警告美国政府有关一次类似 9-11 的袭击。
Christian Britschgi：
They had had some intelligence about that.中文：他们对那件事有一些情报。
Christian Britschgi：
Like, with some desperation, wanting to, because we're not at odds then. Right.中文：有点绝望地，想要，因为那时我们没有冲突。对吧。
Christian Britschgi：
Can you imagine Putin now trying to get, I gotta let him know, I really think something bad's gonna happen.中文：你能想象普京现在试图得到，我得让他知道，我真的觉得会发生不好的事情。
Robby Soave：
It's laughable.中文：这很可笑。
Robby Soave：
Well, because Russia was themselves facing off against the Muslim insurgency.中文：嗯，因为俄罗斯自己正在与穆斯林叛乱作斗争。
Christian Britschgi：
There's no big, there's no big fight going on.中文：没有大事，没有大规模的争斗发生。
Christian Britschgi：
Right. That was George Bush's first call with a foreign leader after 9-11, was Vladimir Putin. There you go. They were like, everyone was like, Yeah.中文：对。那是乔治·布什在 9·11 事件后与外国领导人的第一次通话，对方是弗拉基米尔·普京。就这样。大家都觉得，是啊。
Christian Britschgi：
But, no, all the conflict has come back. People don't like that. Yeah. Take us back.中文：但是，不，所有的冲突都回来了。人们不喜欢那样。是的。带我们回去。
Christian Britschgi：
Take us all the way, all the fucking way back.中文：带我们一路走到底，彻底回去。
Christian Britschgi：
You would've been better sitting in traffic中文：你坐在交通中会更好
Robby Soave：
listening to gangster rap. Oh, I know.中文：听着黑帮说唱。哦，我知道。
Robby Soave：
And I hate, I hate, we should not romanticize the past,中文：我讨厌，我讨厌，我们不应该把过去浪漫化，
Robby Soave：
but it's tough with the 90s. Cause they're just, I mean,中文：但是 90 年代的事情很难办。因为他们只是，我是说，
Robby Soave：
our material living standards have,中文：我们的物质生活水平已经
Robby Soave：
Certainly increased in a lot of ways.中文：在很多方面确实增加了。
Robby Soave：
We have so much better access to electronic goods中文：我们可以更好地获取电子产品
Christian Britschgi：
and things of that nature that make our lives easier,中文：以及类似那样让我们的生活更轻松的东西，
Christian Britschgi：
if not necessarily more full of meaning.中文：如果不一定更有意义的话。
Christian Britschgi：
I'm not like a everything used to be better person.中文：我不像那种认为过去一切都更好的人。
Christian Britschgi：
I'm the opposite of that, but...中文：我正好相反，但是……
Christian Britschgi：
People eventually get bored and dissatisfied with whatever dominates your day, right?中文：人们最终会对支配你一天的任何事情感到厌倦和不满，对吧？
Christian Britschgi：
And if it was, you know, sitting in a cubicle, you're gonna find reasons to find that boring and unsatisfying and, you know, legitimate reasons.中文：如果是的话，你知道，坐在一个隔间里，你会找到理由觉得那很无聊、不令人满意，而且，你知道，是合理的理由。
Christian Britschgi：
And now the thing people are bored with is that I'm sucked into my phone and online spaces where there's lots of arguments.中文：而现在人们感到厌烦的是，我沉迷于手机和充满争论的网络空间。
Christian Britschgi：
It's like, I don't like that either. It's like, okay, yeah, sure, this is just the human condition.中文：就像，我也不喜欢那样。就像，好吧，是的，当然，这只是人类的状况。
Christian Britschgi：
The literature from 100 years ago was about the dehumanization of the factories or before that, the boredom on the farm, you know? Right. Yeah.中文：一百年前的文学是关于工厂的非人性化，或者在那之前，是关于农场的无聊，你知道吗？对。是的。
Christian Britschgi：
Farm work is true labor. Yeah.中文：农活是真正的劳动。是的。
Christian Britschgi：
Very difficult. But people should—中文：非常困难。但人们应该——
Christian Britschgi：
Right, you don't want, like in Fight Club,中文：对，你不想像《搏击俱乐部》那样，
Christian Britschgi：
okay, if they all have to,中文：好吧，如果他们都必须的话，
Christian Britschgi：
you can only eat what you've successfully hunted,中文：你只能吃你成功猎到的东西，
Christian Britschgi：
okay, then you go hungry until you successfully kill something.中文：好吧，那么你就饿着，直到你成功猎到东西为止。
Christian Britschgi：
It's people, the reason we don't live like that中文：是人们，这就是我们不那样生活的原因
Christian Britschgi：
is because our ancestors said, fuck this.中文：是因为我们的祖先说，去他妈的这个。
Christian Britschgi：
I'm not doing this anymore if I can work in a factory. Right, yeah. And then the factory workers said,中文：如果我能在工厂工作，我就不再做这个了。对，嗯。然后工厂工人说，
Robby Soave：
I'm not doing this anymore if I could sit in an office. Right, right.中文：如果我能坐在办公室里，我就不再做这件事了。对，对。
Christian Britschgi：
And then the people in the office said, I'm not doing this anymore.中文：然后办公室里的人说，我不再做这个了。
Christian Britschgi：
If I could just work from home and stare at my phone all day. And then we're gonna say,中文：如果我能够在家工作，然后整天盯着我的手机看。然后我们会说，
Christian Britschgi：
I'm not doing any of this when the AI will look at all for me. Right.中文：当 AI 会为我查看所有内容时，我根本不会做这些。对吧。
Christian Britschgi：
I mean, it certainly has been,中文：我是说，这确实是这样，
Christian Britschgi：
it's a clearly a compelling aesthetic,中文：这显然是一种引人注目的美学，
Christian Britschgi：
if not a completely fleshed out idea.中文：如果不是一个完全成形的想法。
Christian Britschgi：
If, I mean, what explains the appeals of Andrew Tate's中文：我的意思是，什么能解释安德鲁·泰特的吸引力
Christian Britschgi：
and you know, whatever else is, I mean,中文：你知道，无论其他是什么，我的意思是，
Christian Britschgi：
they are kind of purposefully being the Tyler Durden's中文：他们有点故意地在扮演泰勒·德顿
Robby Soave：
of their day, right?中文：在他们那个时代，对吧？
Robby Soave：
I mean, some of those people, but funny that it's never about, because a lot of that stuff comes from pick-up artistry or how to be more appealing to women, and again, that this movie is just none of that whatsoever.中文：我的意思是，其中一些人，但有趣的是，这从来不是关于那个的，因为很多东西都来自把妹艺术或者如何变得对女性更有吸引力，而这部电影完全没有这些内容。
Robby Soave：
Like, are they just all sitting around the house masturbating?中文：他们是不是就在家里坐着自慰？
Robby Soave：
Except for, this was actually a really interesting Easter egg in the movie. I don't know if you noticed the cameo from Jeff Bezos' wife.中文：除此之外，这实际上是电影中一个非常有趣的彩蛋。我不知道你是否注意到了杰夫·贝索斯妻子的客串。
Christian Britschgi：
No! What? Yes, yes. She, uh, you know when they like, uh, burn, like blow up the office building earlier in the movie, right?中文：不！什么？是的，是的。她，呃，你知道他们什么时候，呃，烧掉，像在电影前面炸掉办公室大楼的时候，对吧？
Robby Soave：
Um, she's the, Lauren Sánchez was a local LA reporter. Oh. And so she has a cameo as the channel 4 reporter. Oh, I didn't know that!中文：嗯，她是，劳伦·桑切斯是洛杉矶本地记者。哦。所以她作为 4 号频道记者客串出镜。哦，我不知道这个！
Christian Britschgi：
Yeah. That's funny. And then one of the Fight Club guys is like, oh, she's hot.中文：是啊。那很有趣。然后其中一个搏击俱乐部的人说，哦，她很性感。
Christian Britschgi：
Yeah, there's somebody else in the movie I recognized from something else, but I can't remember what it was. Oh, it was Meat Loaf.中文：是的，电影里还有别人，我在别的地方见过，但我记不起来是什么了。哦，是梅特洛夫。
Christian Britschgi：
Meat Loaf, yeah. He's great in it. Yeah.中文：肉饼，嗯。他在里面很棒。嗯。
Christian Britschgi：
And yeah, it's Jared Leto in a very early role as the blonde guy who gets his face pummeled.中文：是的，那是贾里德·莱托，他在一个很早的角色中扮演那个被打脸的金发男孩。
Christian Britschgi：
Also, being in phys—like, they—I mean, this is the whole thing of the movie, that they feel so alive after being in these pretty brutal physical fights, but...中文：而且，身处于这种身体——就像，他们——我的意思是，这就是整部电影的主题，他们在经历了这些相当激烈的肉体对抗之后，感到如此生机勃勃，但是……
Christian Britschgi：
Like, I don't...中文：就像，我不…
Christian Britschgi：
Maybe you feel excited after you get into a fight?中文：也许你打了一架之后会感到兴奋？
Christian Britschgi：
But I'm not sure just, like, regularly中文：但我不确定，只是，经常那样
Christian Britschgi：
beating each other to a bloody pulp中文：互相打得血肉模糊
Christian Britschgi：
would be so intoxicating.中文：会令人陶醉。
Christian Britschgi：
I mean, also movies, just in general,中文：我的意思是，总的来说，也包括电影，
Christian Britschgi：
are unrealistic about how much of a beating中文：对于会受到多大打击不切实际
Christian Britschgi：
a person can take and be fine. Well, this is what I actually...中文：一个人可以服用并且没事。嗯，这就是我实际上……
Christian Britschgi：
This is something that's actually kind of realistic中文：这实际上是有点现实的事情
Christian Britschgi：
about Fight Club, is they're all getting, like, horribly injured from the fights. They are, but, like,中文：关于《搏击俱乐部》，他们都在打斗中受了严重的伤。他们确实如此，但是，像是，
Christian Britschgi：
They would be dead. I mean...中文：他们会死的。我的意思是……
Christian Britschgi：
Yeah, Jared Leto would be dead, given the beating that Edward Norton gave him. Or even in a coma.中文：是的，如果按爱德华·诺顿给他的那顿毒打，贾里德·莱托早就死了。或者甚至陷入昏迷。
Christian Britschgi：
You can take a single... I have a cousin who was in a fight in, I don't know, high school or college.中文：你可以打一拳……我有一个表兄弟，他曾在，我也不知道，高中还是大学的时候打过架。
Robby Soave：
He just... but he got like punched in the ear once. And guess what? He can't hear in that ear anymore.中文：他只是……但他有一次像是被打了一下耳朵。你猜怎么着？他那个耳朵现在听不见了。
Christian Britschgi：
You can be punched in the face one time and die. You can have your face...中文：你可能被打了一拳就死。你的脸可能...
Christian Britschgi：
Like, punched against the ground and be dead.中文：就像被打倒在地然后死掉。
Christian Britschgi：
Like, just watching it happen over and over and over again.中文：就像，一遍又一遍地看着它发生。
Christian Britschgi：
They do this every Saturday.中文：他们每个星期六都这样做。
Christian Britschgi：
And then they go to the doctor, get a couple stitches,中文：然后他们去看医生，缝了几针，
Christian Britschgi：
and they're ready to go next week.中文：他们下周就准备好了。
Christian Britschgi：
I mean, I fell off a scooter last week, or a month ago,中文：我是说，我上周或者一个月前从滑板车上摔下来了，
Christian Britschgi：
and I was out of the gym for like three to four weeks中文：我大概有三到四周没去健身房了
Christian Britschgi：
from falling off a scooter and just hitting my hands.中文：从滑板车上摔下来，只是碰到了我的手。
Christian Britschgi：
And I could not lift a weight.中文：而我抬不起任何重量。
Christian Britschgi：
I don't know. These are some serious beatings these people are taking.中文：我不知道。这些人挨的打非常严重。
Christian Britschgi：
Oh, that's the other ridiculous thing in the movie. There's like, Tyler Durden has some like, throwaway line about, you know, men spending all their time in the gym, getting soft. Yeah.中文：哦，那是电影里另一个荒谬的地方。就像，泰勒·德顿有一句随便说的台词，大意是，你知道，男人们把所有时间都花在健身房里，结果变得软弱。是的。
Christian Britschgi：
It's like, all you guys are ripped. How do you think he got that one? Right. Right? Yeah.中文：就像，你们所有人都很健美。你觉得他是怎么得到那个的？对吧。对吧？是的。
Christian Britschgi：
And he's very ripped in this movie.中文：而且他在这部电影里肌肉非常发达。
Christian Britschgi：
But he's fake. He's not a real person. He's how Edward Norton sees himself, I guess.中文：但他是假的。他不是真正的人。我猜他是爱德华·诺顿眼中的自己。
Christian Britschgi：
Okay, I think that's about all we needed to say about Fight Club.中文：好吧，我想我们关于《搏击俱乐部》需要说的差不多就这些了。
Robby Soave：
Yeah, I would still totally recommend it. I thought it was a fun movie. I enjoyed watching it.中文：是的，我仍然完全推荐它。我觉得这是一部有趣的电影。我很享受观看它。
Christian Britschgi：
I liked it. It's a good movie. Yeah. I'd give it three and a half stars.中文：我喜欢它。这是一部好电影。是的。我会给它三颗半星。
Christian Britschgi：
I don't know how many stars to give it.中文：我不知道该给它多少颗星。
Christian Britschgi：
I don't like star ratings for things. No? For movies. I don't know, like what-中文：我不喜欢给东西打星级。不是吗？电影。我不知道，就像什么—
Robby Soave：
You like half moons, clovers? Yeah, yeah.中文：你喜欢半月、三叶草吗？是的，是的。
Christian Britschgi：
I give it 87 oodles.中文：我给它 87 分。
Christian Britschgi：
I got this much more-中文：我得到了这么多更多—
Christian Britschgi：
That pales in comparison to an insect.中文：那与一只昆虫相比显得微不足道。
Christian Britschgi：
Yeah, an insect would have enjoyed the shit out of this movie.中文：是的，一只昆虫一定会非常喜欢这部电影。
Christian Britschgi：
Oh, okay, here's something we can kind of go out on.中文：哦，好吧，这里有些我们可以尝试的东西。
Christian Britschgi：
So it's a slightly more serious topic.中文：所以这是一个稍微严肃一点的话题。
Robby Soave：
You were speaking about electrocuting my genitals.中文：你在说要用电击我的生殖器。
Robby Soave：
And yeah, did you- That's what I spend most of my time thinking about.中文：是的，你有吗——那就是我大部分时间都在思考的事情。
Robby Soave：
Did you read our most recent cover story中文：你读过我们最近的封面故事吗
Robby Soave：
by C.J. Ciaramella about the history of US prisons?中文：由 CJ Ciaramello 撰写的关于美国监狱历史的书？
Robby Soave：
It's a long one, but it's great. It's fascinating.中文：很长，但很棒。非常吸引人。
Robby Soave：
It makes me think of it because there's some prison中文：它让我想到它，因为那里有一些监狱
Robby Soave：
in Arkansas had a crank telephone中文：在阿肯色州有一部手摇电话
Robby Soave：
and they would electrocute people's genitals. Really? Yeah, the levels of like sadism and torture in American prisons that is detailed in this article is crazy. It's great though, it's fascinating. Yeah, I never really thought about just like the history of prisons as an institution, right? Because like back in the day, you had like dungeons, right, for like political prisoners. And then like normal criminals, you'd either be executed, you'd be like punished corporally, you know, you'd like get whipped or whatever, or you'd be banished. Right, I was creating a fictional city for Dungeons and Dragons, and yeah, I had like,中文：他们会用电击刺激人的生殖器。真的？是的，美国监狱中这种文章所详细描述的施虐和折磨的程度简直疯狂。不过很棒，很吸引人。是的，我以前从没真正考虑过监狱作为一个机构的历史，对吧？因为过去，你有地下牢房，对吧，用来关政治犯。然后对于普通犯罪分子，你要么被处死，要么接受体罚，你知道的，比如挨鞭打什么的，要么被放逐。对，我在为《龙与地下城》创造一个虚构的城市，是的，我有……
Robby Soave：
the jail was somewhere, and I'm like, but I guess it would just be the dungeon under the castle. Do they put, so then I'm like, okay, well, maybe they put the political prisoners in the dungeon under the castle, but like the common criminals just get shipped off to this jail elsewhere, something like that. Yeah. But also they just killed those people in real history. Right.中文：监狱在某个地方，我心想，但我猜它可能只是城堡下的地牢。他们会放…所以我心想，好吧，也许他们把政治犯关在城堡下的地牢里，但普通罪犯就被送到别的地方的监狱，大概是这样。是的。但实际上他们真的会杀那些人，对吧。
Christian Britschgi：
Well, I don't know. Maybe they put them... I don't know. Well, so this is one of the theses of his essay is like, prisons are like an American, you know, like kind of an American invention. And also... Because they just killed them elsewhere. Right, yeah, it was a way to get away from old monarchical ideas of just publicly punishing people.中文：嗯，我不知道。也许他们把它们放在……我不知道。嗯，所以这是他论文的一个论点，比如，监狱就像是美国的，你知道的，有点像美国的发明。还有……因为他们只是去别的地方杀人。对，是的，这是一种摆脱旧的君主制公开惩罚人的想法的方式。
Robby Soave：
Yeah. Right? And it's funny because they were Quakers and Utopians who founded some of the first prisons with this idea that we're going to reform people into good, virtuous, Republican citizens. Very Quaker. Yeah, and then accidentally just came up with new awful forms of torture. Like the first prison systems were like literally all like solitary confinement. You would be in a tiny cell and make shoes all day, and at the end of it, you would come out and you would participate in Republican life again, but you just instead just went insane in your solitary little cell. Yeah. At least making shoes is something to do. Right. That's true, as opposed to just like—中文：是啊，对吧？有趣的是，他们是贵格会教徒和乌托邦主义者，建立了一些最早的监狱，带着这样的想法：我们要将人们改造成良好、有道德的共和公民。非常贵格会式的。是的，然后却意外地发明了新的可怕酷刑。最早的监狱系统实际上都是单独监禁。你会待在一个小牢房里整天做鞋子，最后出来后，你会再次参与共和生活，但你只是在你那孤独的小牢房里发疯。至少做鞋子是可以做的事情，对吧？没错，比起只是——
70:00 - 80:00
Christian Britschgi：
My understanding, not that I know anything about being in a prison, but is solitary with nothing to do. Drives people to insane. That's kind of sometimes kind of funny to me, but like left-wing groups in particular get very, do a lot of complaining about prisoners being assigned work details.中文：我的理解，不是说我对坐牢有什么经验，而是隔离监禁时什么事都做不了。这会把人逼疯。这对我来说有时有点好笑，但像左翼团体特别会对囚犯被分配劳动任务抱怨很多。
Robby Soave：
It's like, no, you want something new, yeah. They desperately want work details. I mean, there can be better and worse labor, but anything that lets you out of the cell for any period of time is they are happy to do it. They want those jobs.中文：就像，不，你想要一些新东西，是的。他们非常渴望工作细节。我的意思是，劳动可以有好有坏，但任何能让你暂时离开牢房的工作，他们都很乐意去做。他们想要那些工作。
Christian Britschgi：
Right. Yeah, it's funny. There's like, yeah, in like the 18th century, there was like three models in prison. So there's the, like, you're in your cell making shoes. You never talk to anyone, right? And then there's the other one where it's like, you go out and this is where you wear like the striped pajamas, right? And you work in the workhouse, but you're still not allowed to talk to anyone. And then there's the Southern prisons, which is you're just slave labor for profit, yeah. It's like, oh, none of those are good. Yeah, it's a really fascinating piece though, very long, but worthwhile, so, yeah. One of my greatest horrors would be like,中文：对。是啊，这很有意思。就是说啊，大概在 18 世纪的时候，监狱里有三种模式。第一种就是，你在牢房里做鞋子，从不和任何人说话，对吧？然后还有一种，就是你可以出去，这种情况你会穿着那种条纹睡衣，对吧？你在工厂工作，但仍然不允许和任何人说话。然后就是南方的监狱，你只是为了利润而进行奴隶劳动，是的。就是说，哦，这些都不好。是啊，不过这是一个非常吸引人的作品，非常长，但很值得看，所以，是的。我最大的恐惧之一就是那种情况，像是,
Robby Soave：
I love the Count of Monte Cristo being like imprisoned on that island, and he doesn't even know why he's there. And he's in total isolation, doesn't know why he's there until the, The guy, you know, digs into his time and then they become friends and then they plot to escape. But his first, I think it's either his first year or his first several years there, just in prison, no idea. What is my crime?中文：我喜欢《基督山伯爵》中他被关在那个岛上，他甚至不知道自己为什么在那里。他完全处于孤立状态，不知道自己为什么在那里，直到那个人，你知道的，挖掘他的时间，然后他们成为朋友，然后他们策划逃跑。但他最初，我觉得是他在那里第一年，或者前几年，只是关在监狱里，完全不知道：‘我犯了什么罪？’
Christian Britschgi：
No one will answer you and just stuck in a cell. Yeah. What a nightmare. Pretty awful. Yeah, this is...中文：没有人会回答你，只会被困在牢房里。是的。真是噩梦。非常糟糕。是的，这就是...
Robby Soave：
Much more of a prison than just being in a comfy workplace. Right. Yeah, right. Yeah, right. To go back to the theme of today's show. Now that's hard. Yeah.中文：比起只是在一个舒适的工作环境里，这更像是监狱。对。是的，对。是的，对。回到今天节目的主题。这就难了。是啊。
Christian Britschgi：
This prison is quite livable. This is why I have some sympathy for the prison abolitionists. Like, their idea, ultimately they're just like, oh, when we have red lines in communism, there won't be crime, and so we won't need prisons, is kind of their idea. So it's stupid. It's stupid. But like, it would be nice if we didn't have to have these institutions, right?中文：这座监狱相当适合居住。这也是为什么我对监狱废除主义者有一些同情。比如，他们的想法，归根结底，他们只是觉得，哦，当我们在共产主义中设定了红线，就不会有犯罪，所以我们就不需要监狱，这大概就是他们的想法。所以这很愚蠢，很愚蠢。但如果我们不必拥有这些机构，那将会很好，对吧？
Robby Soave：
It would be nice. I mean, every society has some, hopefully a small number of people, but people nonetheless who just will cause problems and must be put somewhere. It can be a nicer place than a not nice place. It doesn't have to be a dungeon, literally. It has to be somewhere.中文：那会很好。我的意思是，每个社会都有一些人，希望数量不多，但无论如何，总有人会制造麻烦，必须被安置在某个地方。这个地方可以比不好的地方好一些。它不一定要是地牢，字面意思上。它必须是某个地方。
Christian Britschgi：
Yeah, this is one of the other, uh, kind of themes in the essay is like, we're constantly trying to like, you know, have new ideas about how prison can rehabilitate people or at least make the conditions nicer or whatever. But then there's a crime wave in the prisons. There's like, oh shoot, okay, now we gotta send a lot of people to prison, screw the quality, right? Just like, get them in there, so. Yeah. What do you do? What do you do? Nothing. Nothing. You don't do nothing. What was the conclusion of this? I don't know. Yeah, I don't know. We gotta, well, look, prisons should not be torture. They should be... Yeah, that's a controversial idea. No, just kidding.中文：是的，这是这篇文章中的另一个主题之一，就是我们不断尝试去，比如说，对于监狱如何能改造人，或者至少改善条件之类，有新的想法。但是监狱里出现了犯罪浪潮，就像，哦，糟了，好吧，现在我们得把很多人送进监狱，不管质量如何，对吧？就是把他们关进去。所以。是的，你会怎么做？你会怎么做？什么也不做。什么也不做。你不会什么也不做。这篇文章的结论是什么？我不知道。是的，我不知道。我们得，嗯，看，监狱不应该是酷刑。它们应该是...是的，这是一个有争议的观点。不，只是开玩笑。
Christian Britschgi：
The conditions should not be torture. They should not be full of violence and rape and such things. They should be, it's not, we're not, you know, we're not Quakers. We don't want them suffering. We're not those monsters. No, the Quakers are pretty cool. Yeah, Society of Friends is nice. They did some good things. They got really lucky that all the Native Americans they lived near didn't want to kill them in Pennsylvania.中文：条件不应该是酷刑。它们不应该充满暴力、强奸之类的事情。它们应该是，我们不是，你知道的，我们不是贵格会的人。我们不希望他们受苦。我们不是那些怪物。不，贵格会的人挺不错的。是的，朋友会很好。他们做了一些好事。他们真的很幸运，因为他们居住附近的美洲原住民在宾夕法尼亚并不想杀他们。
Robby Soave：
They just got lucky. Roll the dice. They come, we look, we want to be friendly. And they did not just get like massacred. Yeah. Their natives were like, oh, yeah.中文：他们只是运气好。掷骰子。他们来了，我们看，我们想表现友好。而且他们并没有被屠杀。是的。他们的原住民就像，哦，是的。
Christian Britschgi：
Maybe that helped, you know, they were nice. Now, if they were dealing with the lik中文：也许那有帮助，你知道，他们人很好。现在，如果他们正在处理类似的情况
Christian Britschgi：
I suffer so you can be a hero. Very good.中文：我受苦是为了让你成为英雄。非常好。
Christian Britschgi：
Well, and I will take on that responsibility.中文：好吧，我会承担那个责任。
Christian Britschgi：
Some call it an awesome responsibility, but you know.中文：有些人称它为一项了不起的责任，但你知道的。
Christian Britschgi：
You do think it's awesome. It is pretty awesome. All right. Good show.中文：你确实认为这很棒。它确实很棒。好吧。表演不错。
Christian Britschgi：
All right. We'll leave it there.中文：好吧。我们就到这里。
Christian Britschgi：
Tell us what you guys thought about Fight Club.中文：告诉我们你们对《搏击俱乐部》的看法。
Christian Britschgi：
We want to read your comments for sure. Bye-bye.中文：我们肯定想阅读你的评论。再见。
References
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- 4The strange death of libertarianism｜The Spectator
spectator.com
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- 6The American prison experiment｜Reason
reason.com
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- 10Another Female Democrat Is Mean, Apparently｜The Atlantic
theatlantic.com
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- 18Lauren Sánchez Bezos｜Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
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