康奈尔七人案、数据中心派对与田纳西的失败注射：Reason《Freed Up》第 45 期

Reason 的自由意志主义周播节目《Freed Up》第 45 期是一期双人对谈，主持是 Robby Soave 与 Christian Britschgi，全长 1 小时 16 分。这期的结构是「几条有原文可查的新闻 + 两段闲聊」：开头 26 分钟是本周最热的一条校园新闻，康奈尔大学一桩两年前指控被重新做成了民事诉讼；随后是两位主持人亲身去过的「支持数据中心」派对；中间穿插 Reason 新纪录片《逃离委内瑞拉》的首映、共和党参议员在杰克·史密斯听证会上的乌龙、迪拜航空一起未遂劫机，以及田纳西州一次没做完的死刑执行。想直接抓重点的读者，看康奈尔案和田纳西这两段就够。

案子本身并不复杂。一名被称为 Jane Doe 的前康奈尔大学学生本月提起诉讼，指控 2024 年 10 月 19 日夜里，她在 Chi Phi 兄弟会住所内被下药并遭到多人性侵；被告包括七名当年的兄弟会成员、康奈尔大学与 Chi Phi 兄弟会本身，她还指校方没有恰当处分被指控者。1

两位主持人关心的不是「这件事有没有发生」这个笼统问题，而是两份文件之间的落差。节目里他们逐条对照：她 2024 年 11 月 8 日向康奈尔校警报案时的那份陈述，与 2026 年起诉书里的叙述明显不同。他们的读法是，前一份陈述里充满了「同意」的语言——她为那次接触设定了边界，在有人提出三人一起时她拒绝了，对方也就离开了；据她的描述，氯胺酮是有人提供、她自己选择使用的，不是被偷偷加的。

这一点在法律上有直接后果。按主持人的解释，纽约州法律下，仅仅因为酒精或药物而处于失能状态，并不自动等于撤回同意；只有当对方在当事人不知情的情况下给她下药或灌酒，才构成强奸。南加州地方检察官之所以在 2024 年没有起诉，给出的理由正是这个：她最初的陈述里没有任何「被强迫」的说法，如果按她自己的叙述原样接受，也构不成犯罪。2

主持人对这个结论并不轻松。Britschgi 在节目里说，他并不认为「她什么责任都没有」，但他同时承认这件事既违反了她的意愿，也「很难不让人同情」。Soave 补了一句更尖锐的：如果只看她的表述，她是有主体性的；把它笼统地叫做「强奸文化」，反而把这件荒唐事说成了一个它并不是的东西。

校方那一侧的信息同样被摆了出来。康奈尔说纪律处分来自正式的第九条（Title IX）调查，由受过训练的教职员工组成的小组听取证据，结果包括停学和开除；学校关闭了 Chi Phi 分会，并否认「只让被指控者写一篇作文」这种说法。1

两位主持人更在意的是舆论压力带来的方向性改变。《Free Press》先做了报道，随后社群要求重新审视，汤普金斯县地方检察官办公室重新开卷，寻求大陪审团审查；纽约州总检察长办公室也在审查校方的应对。3

Soave 把这一层放到他自己的职业经验里：他说自己早年在 Reason 主要写校园正当程序争议，这类案子的模式是「谁先开口谁占优势」——先报案的一方成为被行动的对象，而被指控的一方的处境取决于当时记录下来的文本。他也强调，这不是说性侵案都不可信，而是说，时光流逝之后人对事情的复述往往会朝对自己有利的方向漂移，这也是为什么法律要有诉讼时效。

节目第二段是两位主持人上周六亲历的场子。活动叫 Data After Dark，地点在华盛顿 Penn Quarter 的 Pubkey——一家自称「比特币酒吧」的店。4

这期节目的价值在于它把派对的语境讲清楚了：这不是行业年会，而是一场针对数据中心反对声浪的反向动员。主持人提到组织者之一是曾在《Free Press》和 Pirate Wires 工作过的记者 Jonas Du，联合主办方包括 Young Voices、Build American AI 与比特币政策研究所；现场有 AI 照相亭，酒吧特调叫「劳登县冰茶」；参加者以年轻男性为主。当天有三名抗议者冲上台，被嘘声和「USA、USA」的口号压下去、随后被安保带离。5

两位主持人随后回应了网上的嘲讽。有人拍了现场那块「弗吉尼亚属于服务器」（Virginia is for servers，改编自该州旅游口号 Virginia is for lovers）的牌子并发帖嘲弄，他们的反驳是：数据中心不冒烟、噪音很低，劳登县的马场和酒庄也并没有被推平，而这些设施带来的税收是本地公共服务的钱。

这期还夹了三段较短的时事。

其一，Reason 出品的长纪录片《逃离委内瑞拉》刚做了放映，正式世界首映定在 2026 年 10 月 13 日，地点是纽约 IFC Center。6 两位主持人聊到片中那位因反政府活动而流亡的人物，以及查韦斯当年在西方名流中收获的追捧。

其二，参议员 Eric Schmitt 在 9 月 29 日参议院司法委员会就杰克·史密斯的听证会上，试图用「你当时是不是在亚特兰大看了一场 NBA 比赛」来指控史密斯作伪证，结果把两支球队搞混了；同一场发言里他还把史密斯称为「恶棍」和「人渣」。7 两位主持人对这场的评价是：对司法部越权的批评本身是正当的，但用这种方式提出来，只会让正当的监督失去分量；而 Amy Klobuchar 在席上的即时纠正被他们称为「漂亮的一手」。

其三，9 月 30 日一架迪拜航空飞往以色列的航班上，副驾驶持刀刺伤机长并试图夺取操纵杆，飞机一度俯冲约 14000 英尺，最终由机上乘客与休班飞行员合力制服，机长 Smit Machchhar 在受伤情况下参与把飞机安全降落在沙特。8 两位主持人讨论的重点是动机尚不明确，以及事件能被如此迅速化解的运气成分。

这是本期最沉重的一段。9 月 30 日，田纳西州对死囚 Christa Pike 执行注射死刑。Pike 1995 年杀害同学 Colleen Slemmer 时年仅 18 岁，此案在美国属于极少数女性死刑案。在执行前，她的律师曾以血小板疾病会使中心静脉置管更可能出问题、从而带来不必要的痛苦为由提出异议；州最高法院驳回了暂缓请求。9

执行当天的经过由媒体见证人记录了下来：在最高法院撤销下级法院的暂缓令后，州方开始执行，两次注射之后 Pike 仍然存活、没有失去意识、仍有心跳；她抱怨手臂「像要裂开」，出现打鼾和踢腿，行刑室的帘子被拉上两次；随后她被送往院外医疗机构。州惩教署表示按既有合法程序执行。州长 Bill Lee 下令进行第三方全面审查，并宣布今年田纳西剩下的那一次死刑不会按计划执行。10

两位主持人的立场在这段里表达得很直接：他们都不反对死刑本身，但认为执行方式荒唐。他们的论证是一个二选一——如果一个州无法体面地执行，那就应该废除；既然决定了不是折磨而是处死，就不该把它包装成一套医学流程，也不该出现「先把她救回来、以后再杀一次」这种情形。节目里还提到今年 5 月同州的 Tony Carruthers 案：执行团队花了一个多小时仍无法建立静脉通路，医生尝试锁骨下中心静脉置管也失败，最终由州长下令中止并给予一年缓期。9

他们说这段没有任何触发警告，也知道会被平台限流。

节目最后回到 Reason 的日常传统：各自报一本在读的书和两部纪录片。Britschgi 在读的是 Simon Schama 的《Citizens: A Chronicle of the French Revolution》，一本约 900 页的法国大革命史；两人由此聊到路易十六、查理一世与沙皇尼古拉二世的对照——哪些君主是被时代碾过，哪些是自己把事情搞砸的。他们推荐的纪录片都出自 Errol Morris：1999 年的《Mr. Death》和 2010 年的《Tabloid》，并特别提到 Morris 那套让被访者直视镜头、把提问留在画面外的拍法。

说明：以下转录由本期官方音频自动识别后按讲话人分段整理，每 10 分钟标注一次时间轴。Robby Soave 与 Christian Britschgi 两位主持人语速快、接话密集，机器识别在极短的插话处可能有个别句子标错；节目中的广告与音乐段落已被跳过。

Christian Britschgi（00:03） Boom. Okay. We got the thumbs up. We're going. Let's go. 轰。好。我们得到了认可。我们走吧。走吧。

Robby Soave（00:06） Okay. 好的。

Christian Britschgi（00:07） All right. We got a serious story to tackle here. Yeah. One that everybody's talking about on social media, so it should be no surprise to people we're going to hit it. The Cornell rape lawsuit. Long time people who followed me and have read Reason probably know that this is a category of stories, due process disputes on college campuses that I have covered less so now, but- Back in the day when I was mostly just in a writing role for a reason, I really followed them a lot. And I... Yeah. No one is... Right. Like, the order of events. 好吧。我们这里有一个严肃的故事要处理。是的，这是一个在社交媒体上大家都在谈论的故事，所以我们要报道它应该不会让人感到惊讶。康奈尔大学强奸诉讼案。长期关注我的人并阅读过《理由》的人可能知道，这是一个我曾经经常报道的故事类别——关于大学校园里的正当程序争议，虽然现在报道得少了，但——早些年当我主要在《理由》写作时，我确实经常关注它们。我……是的。没有人会……对的，比如，事情发生的顺序。

Robby Soave（01:08） She went to a fraternity house and... After being out at... After being out at a bar. She's underage. She's 18 or 19. Yeah. But she was drinking. Drunk, yeah. Yes. 她去了一个兄弟会的宿舍，然后……出去在……出去在一家酒吧。她未成年。她 18 或 19 岁。是的。但她在喝酒。喝醉了，是的。是的。

Christian Britschgi（01:18） She rates her own alcohol intoxication level when this all begins at, like, a 5 or 6 out of 10. I don't know what, like, is 10 dead or is 10... I can't drive anymore. I don't... You know, I'm not sure what that means when you're evaluating your own... And also... She has a threesome with that guy and another guy. The first guy is also extremely drunk and begins to like get sick, so they stop. They're doing, they also do ketamine. Yeah. What's going on here? Yeah, I don't know, I'll talk more about That aspect of it later. But then other people become involved. There's a total of seven people who are being accused here. She does have, she has two different threesomes with two different sets of two other people. And she takes more ketamine. And then at 5.45 in the morning, she says she's had enough and it's over. She goes to the police, not the day after, but like two-ish weeks after is what it sounds like. Yeah. There is some action disciplinary by Cornell taken. Two of the boys are expelled and the rest, and this is some laugh line with a joke that I don't know why this is a wrong outcome actually at all, but the others have to like, they have to write a paper about why this was wrong. Yeah. Which actually seems like a perfectly fine outcome, honestly. Yeah. But the police, the district attorney does not prosecute. Right. And now two years later, she has filed a lawsuit. Now, all the details in the lawsuit are the same. Yeah. But when you compare these documents side by side, they are starkly different. Mm-hmm. Because the police, and we don't have the entire statement to police. We have the portion, the district attorneys released portions of it. 当这一切开始时，她给自己的酒精中毒程度评分为 5 或 6（满分 10）。我不知道什么是 10 人死亡或 10 人……我不能再开车了。 我不...你知道，当你评估自己的时候，我不确定这意味着什么...而且...她与那个男人和另一个男人发生了三人行。 第一个人也喝得酩酊大醉，开始想生病，所以他们停下来。 他们正在做，他们也做氯胺酮。 是的。 这是怎么回事？ 是的，我不知道，稍后我会详细讨论这方面的内容。 但随后其他人也参与其中。 这里总共有七人被指控。 她确实有，她有两个不同的三人行，还有两个不同的另外两个人。 她服用了更多的氯胺酮。 然后早上 5.45，她说她受够了，一切都结束了。 她去警察局，不是第二天，而是听起来像是两周后。 是的。 康奈尔大学采取了一些纪律处分。 其中两个男孩被开除，其余的，这是一些笑话，我不知道为什么这是一个错误的结果，但其他人必须喜欢，他们必须写一篇论文来说明为什么这是错误的。 是的。 老实说，这实际上看起来是一个完美的结果。 是的。 但警方、地方检察官并没有起诉。 正确的。 现在两年后，她提起了诉讼。 现在，诉讼中的所有细节都是一样的。 是的。 但当你并排比较这些文件时，你会发现它们截然不同。 嗯嗯。 因为警察，我们没有向警察提供完整的陈述。 我们有这部分，地方检察官已经公布了其中的一部分。

Robby Soave（03:37） Mm-hmm. Because people were like... Oh my God, what she alleges is so horrible. She was gang raped by seven people. She was forced drugs on her. Why didn't you prosecute? He's like, well, here's why. You read the statement she made to police. She uses the language of consent over and over and over again. She sets boundaries for the encounter because at one point they say, let's do three on one. And she rejects that. And so then that guy leaves. So they don't do that. She is not... According to her words in this statement, it is very important. She's not forced or pressured to take ketamine. She's offered it and she takes it. Yeah. 嗯哼。因为人们就像......天哪，她所指控的真是太可怕了。她被七个人了。她被强迫吸毒。你为什么不起诉？他说，原因如下。你读了她向警方做的陈述。她一遍又一遍地使用同意的语言。她为这次遭遇设定了界限，因为有一次他们说，我们三对一。她拒绝了。然后那个男人离开了。所以他们不这么做。她不是......根据她在陈述中的说法，这非常重要。她没有被强迫或施加压力服用氯胺酮。她被提出过，她接受了。是的。

Christian Britschgi（04:16） So under, this is relevant because under New York law, mere incapacitation with alcohol and drugs does not automatically mean the withdrawal of consent. Yeah. Consent, it's unless, now if they slipped you drugs or gave you drugs or alcohol without your knowledge, then it would be rape. Yeah. But according to her recollection, that didn't happen. Yeah. 所以在这种情况下，这很重要，因为根据纽约法律，仅仅因为酒精和药物导致的无行为能力，并不自动意味着同意被撤回。是的。同意，除非……现在如果他们在你不知情的情况下给你下药或提供药物或酒精，那就是强奸。是的。但根据她的回忆，那并没有发生。是的。

Robby Soave（04:39） When you read this document, it's a lot of planning for who's going to do what with who. That is talked through and agreed to. 当你阅读这份文件时，其中有很多关于谁将与谁做什么的计划。这些内容会被讨论并达成一致。

Christian Britschgi（04:45） Now, she's certainly very hazy by the end of this, and she says she has some memory gaps. So you can't, like, entirely rule out. 到最后，她当然变得非常恍惚，她说她有一些记忆空白。所以你不能完全排除。

Robby Soave（04:51） Well, yeah, if you're drunk and doing ketamine, of course you would. 嗯，是的，如果你喝醉了还在吸氯胺酮，那当然会这样。

Christian Britschgi（04:54） So the bottom line is, the district attorney is totally right about this. He said, it's not that we... There was no crime alleged because she didn't say it was forced at any point. So it's not like the prosecutor doesn't have to decide who he believes more. He has to say, if the facts are most plausible or probable to the... He doesn't have to make that determination. He just has to say, let's assume everything she's saying is true exactly the way she says it. Then we can get an indictment. But what she's saying... Is not the grounds for a crime. 所以关键是，地区检察官在这件事上完全正确。他说，不是说我们……没有指控犯罪，因为她在任何时候都没有说这是被强迫的。所以不是说检察官不必决定他更相信谁。他必须说，如果事实最有可能或最可能是……他不必做出那个判断。他只需要说，假设她说的一切都完全属实。然后我们就可以起诉。但她所说的……并不是犯罪的依据。

Robby Soave（05:27） So they couldn't do anything about it. And people have really struggled with that. Jake Tapper, who's usually more mature than this, was screaming at this guy. They were doing an interview and he's like, well, if this was my daughter, that wouldn't have been good enough for her. And I'm like, well, no one wants to imagine their daughter having sex with seven guys and ketamine and snorting ketamine off some guy's dick. Because that's just... Disgusting. Yeah. And you can draw, and you can have moral feelings or opposition to that, absolutely, 所以他们无能为力。人们对此真的很挣扎。杰克·塔珀，通常比这成熟得多，但他对那个家伙大喊大叫。他们在接受采访时说，如果这是我女儿，那对她来说不够好。我说，没人愿意想象自己的女儿和七个男人发生关系，吸氯胺酮，还吸着某个男人的鸡巴上的氯胺酮。因为那真是......恶心。恶心。是的。你可以画画，你可以有道德感或反对，绝对如此，

Christian Britschgi（05:57） but it is not a crime. Yeah. And the district attorney's job is whether it's a crime or not. 但这不是犯罪。是的。地区检察官的工作是判断这是否构成犯罪。

Robby Soave（06:01） Right. Yeah. 对。是的。

Christian Britschgi（06:02） So that's, that's where I begin with, and then there's a lot more angles of it to get into, but people, look, I am not saying that It was absolutely morally right for them to do this. In fact, I think it was a huge failing to do this. It's disgusting behavior. You should not like men and women. I said this to Batya yesterday when we were discussing it on her program, men and women I've come to understand are different enough in the aggregate. Not all, there are huge variations, but most men, Would enjoy an encounter like this or would not feel psychologically disturbed about it after? I'm sure some would, but most would not. Most women, however, don't want to do this. And even if they do do it, later are going to feel badly about it. They're going to feel used. Yeah, violated. And what's so clear is that now we have her, and I really think the additional text messages we've just started to see in the last like two days. And then what happens is she wants, now remember this is an end of October. There's a Halloween party at the fraternity. So that would have been shortly thereafter, just a few days after at that same fraternity that she absolutely is desperate to go to. She says, can I, like, she wants to be, 这就是我开始的地方，然后还有更多的角度可以探讨，但是大家看，我并不是说他们这样做在道德上绝对正确。 事实上，我认为这样做是一个巨大的失败。 这是令人厌恶的行为。 你不应该喜欢男人和女人。 昨天，当我们在巴特亚的节目中讨论这个问题时，我对她说了这句话，我所认识到的男人和女人总的来说是有很大不同的。 不是全部，有很大的差异，但大多数男人，会喜欢这样的遭遇，还是不会在心理上感到不安？ 我确信有些人会，但大多数人不会。 然而，大多数女性不想这样做。 即使他们真的这么做了，以后也会感到难过。 他们会感到被利用。 是啊，侵犯了。 很明显的是，现在我们有了她，我真的认为我们在过去两天里才开始看到额外的短信。 然后发生的事情是她想要的，现在记住这是十月底。 兄弟会正在举办万圣节派对。 所以那是在那之后不久，就在几天后，在她绝对渴望去的同一个兄弟会。 她说，我可以吗，她想成为，

Robby Soave（07:42） it's all gonna be the same people. Right now it's at a point where campus is talking about this like, can you believe what Jane Doe did? Oh my God, what a, you know, I mean, these are awful. I feel, you feel bad for this person. That's awful. 都是同样的人。现在情况是，校园里大家都在谈论这件事，你能相信简·多做了什么吗？天哪，真是，嗯，你知道，我是说，这些太糟糕了。我感觉，你会为这个人感到难过。真可怕。

Christian Britschgi（07:55） She wants to go to the party, and they're trying, the brothers are trying to say, like, no, it's all cool, like, we don't, please come, it's not, everyone seems to want to minimize this as a, because they're starting to sense that, like, oh, shit, she's talking about 她想去参加聚会，而他们在努力，兄弟们在努力说，比如，不，没关系，我们不，拜托来吧，这没关系，每个人似乎都想把这件事最小化，因为他们开始意识到，哦，糟糕，她在说的事情

Robby Soave（08:09） this in a negative way, but not in a I accuse you of rape sort of way. Just in a, I can't believe you're, 这是以一种消极的方式，但不是那种我指控你强奸的方式。只是那种，我简直不敢相信你，

Christian Britschgi（08:15） everybody told people what I did, and they're talking about me and I don't like it. The head of the fraternity says, this woman cannot come to the party. This is, No, uninvited. Oh. That was a big mistake. Yeah. Or maybe that was not a mistake. I don't know. But that made her furious. Yeah, sure, of course. And then a few days later, she goes to the police. And her roommate has now told the media that her roommate, after hearing her describe the story, says, that sounds like rape to me. You should go to the police. So people have asked, if she wasn't alleging a crime, why did she bother talking to the police? 每个人都告诉别人我做了什么，他们在谈论我，而我不喜欢这样。兄弟会的负责人说，这个女人不能来派对。这个，不，未受邀请的。哦，那是一个大错误。是啊。或者也许那不是一个错误。我不知道。但那让她非常愤怒。是的，当然。然后几天之后，她去找了警察。她的室友现在告诉媒体，她的室友在听她描述故事后说，那听起来像强奸。你应该去找警察。所以有人问，如果她没有指控犯罪，她为什么还要去找警察？

Robby Soave（08:47） And I'm like, well, there could be about 10,000 different reasons for that. Her friends put her up to it. Her parents put her up to it and so on and so forth, which of course is the case. Well, and also just like you, after discussing it with people, they say a crime has been committed when in fact, you don't understand what the standard is. What the legal basis is for the crime. Which yeah, okay, fair enough. 然后我就想，好吧，这可能有大约一万种不同的原因。她的朋友怂恿她。她的父母怂恿她，诸如此类，当然情况就是这样。嗯，而且也就像你一样，在和别人讨论后，他们说已经犯罪了，而实际上，你并不明白标准是什么。犯罪的法律依据是什么。嗯，好吧，也行，合理。

Christian Britschgi（09:05） You might not understand that. 你可能不理解那一点。

Robby Soave（09:07） This is why, this is a very tough issue because, yeah, you do feel a lot of sympathy for this woman. Of course. I think it was rational to feel violated and used. Yeah, this is disgusting behavior on the guy's part. Yes. But also, this is very difficult to talk about. I know, we're two dudes just talking about women and, you know. 这就是为什么，这是一个非常棘手的问题，因为，是的，你确实会对这个女人感到很多同情。当然。我认为感到被侵犯和被利用是合理的。是的，这个男人的行为令人作呕。是的。但同时，这也很难讨论。我知道，我们只是两个男人在谈论女人，你知道的。

Christian Britschgi（09:29） She had some agency in this too. And so when it's described as a culture of rape 她在这方面也有一定的主动性。因此，当它被描述为强奸文化时

Robby Soave（09:33） or something like that, it's like, this is, Whatever, this was a bad idea. Yes. To get liquored up. Yes. And then go over to this frat house and be like, I want to have a threesome and do ketamine. Yes. This is a bad idea and you're going to feel bad about it afterward and you have cause 或者类似的东西，就像，这就是，随便吧，这是一个坏主意。是的。喝醉。是的。然后去这个联谊会宅，像，我想要玩三人行和吸氯胺酮。是的，这是一个坏主意，你之后会感觉糟糕，而且你是有理由这么感觉的

Christian Britschgi（09:49） to feel bad about it afterward. And it's not like these guys did nothing wrong. Right. They should have anticipated that and not done it. 之后为此感到内疚。而且也不是说这些人完全没错。对吧。他们本应该预料到这一点，并且不去做。

Robby Soave（09:55） Yeah. And actually one of them, and this is another, so all seven of them are in this lawsuit. 是的。实际上，其中一个，还有这个，所以他们七个人都在这起诉讼中。

Christian Britschgi（09:58） Yeah. And it could not be, again, as the night goes on, she's much, she's more high, she's in worse shape. The second threesome, maybe there's, even though the language of it sounds to me totally consensual, the first one is so unambiguously consensual and those people are still named 是的。而且，随着夜晚的进行，她的状态可能越来越不行，她越来越高，她的状况更糟。第二次三人行，也许，尽管它的语言在我看来完全是双方同意的，第一次是如此明确的双方同意，而且那些人仍然被点名。

Robby Soave（10:23） in this lawsuit and people are calling for them to be, have charges against them. And they're all being fired from their jobs right now. They're all being death-threaded on social media. 在这起诉讼中，人们呼吁对他们提起指控。他们现在都被从工作岗位上解雇了。他们在社交媒体上都收到了死亡威胁。

Christian Britschgi（10:33） I'm sorry, there's really no crime stated against man one and etc. And it's like you said, it's not because people say, well, oh, she had some responsibility, but they have a responsibility not to rape, which is absolutely true. But I've read through probably hundreds or thousands of these sexual misconduct adjudication stories before. And what is so different about this one is she was not held down. She was not, drugs were not shoved in her face. She wasn't told she couldn't leave. And that is a meaningful difference than a lot of these cases I've seen where I do think sexual assault occurred. When she said stop, it stopped. It does not seem to me like there was no way out of this situation but to engage in the behavior. It doesn't seem like she didn't want to engage in the behavior. based on what she sold the police. And so I don't know, so there's nothing to prosecute at that point. 对不起，事实上并没有针对一号男子等人提出任何犯罪指控。就像你说的，这并不是因为人们说，哦，她有一些责任，但他们有责任不去强奸，这是完全正确的。但我以前可能看过上百甚至上千个关于性行为不当的裁决故事。这个案件不同的是，她没有被按住。没有药物被塞到她的脸上。没有人说她不能离开。这和我见过的很多案件有一个明显的区别，在那些案件中，我确实认为发生了性侵。当她说‘停’时，行为就停了。在我看来，她并没有别的出路只能进行这种行为。根据她告诉警察的情况，她似乎也不是不想参与这种行为。所以我不知道，那时并没有任何可以起诉的事情。

Robby Soave（11:33） I think that there's, we do ourselves a disservice when we can only talk about like, whether some sort of like sexual situation was good or bad based solely on the standard of consent, right? It's like, this is why you restrain your passions 我认为，当我们只能基于同意的标准来讨论某种性情境是好是坏时，我们实际上是在对自己不利，对吧？这就是为什么你要克制自己的欲望。

Christian Britschgi（11:48） or don't put yourself in a situation like this. And I say that for everyone involved in this. And then, and Lindsay and I were arguing about this, my co-host and rising lover to death. I think she's totally wrong. You know, she said, and we hear all these platitudes about how there's no such thing as a perfect rape victim. And sometimes it takes you a long time to process your trauma and recall things. I'm like, I don't know. Okay, but I know that that's false. Yeah. Like, you're... It can... If you have... If you have blunt trauma to the head or significant alcohol and drug abuse, it might take you a while to remember, fully comprehend what happened. Yeah. But her recollection of what happened two years later is not going to be more accurate 或者不要把自己置于这样的境地。我说这话是针对所有涉及此事的人。然后，我和林赛在争论这个问题，我的联合主持人，也是我逐渐深爱的人。我觉得她完全错了。你知道，她说，我们总是听到一些陈词滥调，说没有完美的强奸受害者。有时候，你需要很长时间才能处理你的创伤并回忆事情。我想，我不知道，好吧，但我知道那是错的。是的。就像，你……如果你有……如果你头部受到钝伤，或者严重酗酒和药物滥用，可能需要一段时间才能完全记起或者理解发生的事情。是的。但她两年后对发生的事情的回忆，不会更准确。

Robby Soave（13:04） than her recollection of what happened two weeks later. It is not the case. In fact, it's the opposite. 比她两周后对发生的事情的回忆要多。事实并非如此。实际上，情况正好相反。

Christian Britschgi（13:11） And this is not... That's why we have statute of limitations, yeah. Because this is not just, it's not that sexual assault is some special exception. It's like all other forms of memory. Over time, this is how the human brain works. The story you tell about yourself and your own actions and behaviors becomes more flattering to yourself for everything. The more times you tell a story, I mean, this is the joke about a fish tail. Like, oh, the fish was this big, it was this big. We embellish detail because we don't want to remember bad things that happened. We don't want to recall things that were our fault or where we share some blame. 这并不是……这就是为什么我们有时效限制，嗯。因为这不仅仅是，性侵犯并不是某种特殊的例外。这就像其他所有形式的记忆一样。随着时间的推移，这就是人脑运作的方式。你讲述关于自己以及自己行为的故事，会让自己显得更光彩照人。你越多次讲述一个故事，我是说，这是关于鱼的笑话。比如，哦，这条鱼有这么大，有这么大。我们会夸大细节，因为我们不想记住发生的坏事。我们不想回忆那些我们的错或者我们承担部分责任的事情。

Robby Soave（13:47） So over time, your story about what happened to you becomes more favorable to you. That's how the human brain works. It's the opposite. Now, these pseudoscientific recovered memory people are like, oh, yes, you can 30 years later remember something. 所以随着时间的推移，你对自己经历的事情的叙述会变得对你更有利。这就是人类大脑的运作方式。情况恰恰相反。现在，这些伪科学的回忆恢复者会说，哦，是的，你可以在 30 年后记起一些事情。

Christian Britschgi（14:02） I'm sure that can happen, but the vast majority of those cases were frauds. You're manufacturing. 我确信那有可能发生，但绝大多数这种情况都是欺诈。你在编造。

Robby Soave（14:08） We're manufacturing things that did not happen. 我们正在制造并未发生的事情。

Christian Britschgi（14:11） You can trick or convince people, psychologists have been able to do this, to elicit from people recollections of things that never even happened. So memory is not reliable. It's more reliable the quicker, the sooner it is to the incident. So I mean, I don't know, there can be more evidence. I happy to hear more evidence. Maybe the Cornell police did a very bad job because they didn't interview the guys themselves. Maybe some of the people in that house have information, but I don't really see an argument for, the district attorney is reopening this case because he's facing, he's being, getting death threats. Yeah, right. And that seems like a very poor way to administer justice. 你可以欺骗或说服人，心理学家已经能够做到这一点，从人们那里获取从未发生过的事情的回忆。所以记忆是不可靠的。越快，越接近事件发生的时间，记忆就越可靠。我的意思是，我不知道，可能会有更多的证据。我很乐意听到更多证据。也许康奈尔的警察做得非常糟糕，因为他们没有自己去采访那些人。也许房子里的一些人掌握信息，但我真的看不到理由认为，地方检察官重新开启这个案子是因为他面临死亡威胁。是啊，对。这看起来像是一个非常差劲的司法执行方式。

Robby Soave（14:52） Yeah, this is the other kind of formulaic aspect of this case is the kind of like mob outrage is now forcing, yeah, Authorities to reconsider what was actually seems like a right call in the moment. Yes 是的，这个案件的另一种公式化方面是类似于公众愤怒现在迫使，当局重新考虑在当时看起来似乎是正确的决定。是的

Christian Britschgi（15:03） Yeah, which is another disturbing aspect of these kinds of and the mob metering out justice. They they the free press has a amazingly good story good on them for getting this exclusively of someone who has the same name as Male number one. Oh who's been targeted the wrongly people? showed up to his mother's house and I'm not a fan of the I'm not a fan of the 是的，这是这些类型事件的另一个令人不安的方面，群体在执行正义。他们，自由媒体有一个非常好的报道故事，值得称赞的是他们独家报道了一个与第一号男性同名的人。哦，他被错误地针对了，人们出现在他母亲的家里，而我并不赞同，我并不赞同，我并不赞同

Robby Soave（15:31） I'm not a fan of the I'm not a fan of the 我不是……的粉丝，我不是……的粉丝，我不是……的粉丝，我不是……的粉丝

Christian Britschgi（15:35） I'm not a fan of the I'm not a fan of the 我不是……的粉丝，我不是……的粉丝，我不是……的粉丝，我不是……的粉丝，我不是……的粉丝，我不是……的粉丝，我不是……的粉丝，我不是……的粉丝，我不是……的粉丝，我不是……的粉丝，我不是……的粉丝，我不是……的粉丝，我不是……的粉丝，我不是……的粉丝，我不是……的粉丝

Robby Soave（15:50） I'm not a fan of the Because X is not a place where I would get negative comments anymore, because it's a right wing site run by Elon Musk. And it's where most of my commentary is. But like a clip of me talking about this got shared on Instagram. Which, I woke up, I was like, holy shit. I just had to like disable comments. I, there's a photo of me and Reem and it's like all like, you're gonna rape her. Oh, it's awful. I was like, Reem, you should turn these comments off. Reem's safe for me, everyone. Don't worry about that. Which, again, totally fine. I can take it. This has happened to me before, and it's been 10 times worse. But it's been a long time. I'd forgotten about this. Yeah. And man, it's nuts. 我不是那个平台的粉丝，因为 X 已经不是我会收到负面评论的地方了，因为它是一个由埃隆·马斯克经营的右翼网站。这也是我大多数评论所在的地方。但有一段我谈论这个的剪辑被分享到 Instagram 上。我醒来的时候，心想，天哪。我不得不关闭评论。我和 Reem 的照片下全是类似‘你会强奸她’之类的评论，太可怕了。我当时就说，Reem，你应该关闭这些评论。Reem 对我来说是安全的，大家不用担心。再次强调，这完全没问题。我可以承受，这种事以前也发生过，而且还严重十倍。但已经很久了，我都忘了这件事。是啊，真是疯狂。

Christian Britschgi（16:30） It's a nuts thing. 这是件疯狂的事。

Robby Soave（16:32） This is, um... Okay, this is a bit of a... Woke revival. This reminds me of classic cancel culture reaction. It actually is. Yeah. I mean, because it's becoming now just far removed from the actual events and the controversy 这是，嗯……好吧，这有点像一种……觉醒复兴。这让我想起了经典的抵制文化反应。实际上确实是。是的。我的意思是，因为它现在变得与实际事件和争议完全脱节了。

Christian Britschgi（16:45） that doesn't ultimately doesn't really matter anymore. It's like, who's the bad people out there in the world that we can go punish now? Right. Yeah. Yeah. 那最终实际上已经不重要了。就像，现在世界上有哪些坏人我们可以去惩罚一样，对吧。是的，是的。

Robby Soave（16:54） Savage. 野蛮。

Christian Britschgi（16:55） Yeah. Yeah. Now there has actually been a lot more sanity on this topic than I remember previously. So I think we've. 是的。是的。现在关于这个话题实际上比我以前记得的理智多得多。所以我觉得我们已经。

Robby Soave（17:02） How much of that do you think. Gotten it across because I've heard from a lot like Sunny Hostin. Yeah. To view co-host. Yeah. But she is a former sex crimes prosecutor. There's a video of her just calmly laying out why this should not have been prosecuted and why Joy Behar's in, you know, insist like. She was right. Like, Sonny was like, no, but she is not alleging that. And here's why you're wrong. And it was very sober. You don't think that would have happened in 2017? I feel like no. Yeah. Yeah. I wonder how much of this, too, is just the fact that, as you mentioned, X is a right-wing platform now. Yeah. Where back in the day, I mean, this all would have played out on Twitter very rapidly. Yeah. With a lot of, like, you know... Because now we'd be on the stage where it's like someone who tried to modestly defend you. 你觉得你传达了多少这个信息？因为我听过很多人，比如 Sunny Hostin。对，联合主持人。是的。但她以前是性犯罪检察官。网上有她的视频，她非常平静地说为什么这件事不应该被起诉，以及为什么 Joy Behar 坚持她是对的。Sunny 当时说，不，她并没有指控那个。这就是你错的原因。视频非常冷静。你不觉得 2017 年会发生这种情况吗？我觉得不会。是啊。是啊。我也想知道，这很大程度上是不是因为，正如你提到的，X 现在是个右翼平台。是啊。但以前，这一切会在 Twitter 上迅速展开。是啊，会有很多，比如，你知道的……现在我们会处在一个阶段，比如有人试图适度地为你辩护。

Christian Britschgi（17:43） Yes. For, you know, who like disagrees with that. They'd be hunting you for sport. I would be saying that like, okay, this was a rape, but I think Robbie is a good guy. And now I would like people be showing up at my parents' house, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, this, you know, people probably know, but my first major story at Reason back in 2014 was the University of Virginia Rolling Stone story, which at the time, we had more of just a blog model at Reason.com. And you could kind of just, you know, weigh in at will. 是的。因为，你知道，谁会不同意那点呢。他们会把你当作猎物。我会说，就像，好吧，这是一起强奸案，但我认为 Robbie 是个好人。而现在人们可能会出现在我父母家，对吧？是的，是的，是的。我的意思是，你知道的，人们可能知道，但我在 2014 年在 Reason 的第一篇重大报道是弗吉尼亚大学《滚石》事件报道，当时我们在 Reason.com 更多的是博客模式。你可以随意发表意见。

Robby Soave（18:11） It was a little less formally structured because we thought of ourselves more. I was writing for the blog. Remember, blogs used to be kind of distinct. We had the website and then we had the blog, hit and run. So I just quickly fired up a post saying, seems kind of like a hoax to me for a variety of reasons. I don't believe it. And then I endured like a day and a half of the worst sort of people scream. I thought I was gonna lose my job. People were just screaming at me and everyone that I was the worst person. You know, Jezebel called me an idiot. Remember that feminist website? And then I got very lucky that swiftly after this, The story collapsed dramatically, more so than this one. 它的结构稍微不那么正式，因为我们更多地考虑自己。我当时是在为博客写作。记住，博客过去有点独立的存在。我们有网站，然后有博客，快闪发布。所以我只是快速发了一篇帖子，说，这对我来说似乎有点像骗局，出于各种原因。我不相信它。然后我经历了大约一天半的最糟糕的那种人群的尖叫。我以为我会丢掉工作。人们就在对我尖叫，认为我是最差的人。你知道，Jezebel 叫我傻瓜。记得那个女性主义网站吗？然后我非常幸运，在这之后不久，这个故事戏剧性地崩溃了，比这个故事还厉害。

Christian Britschgi（18:51） This one is – at least there's some maybe room for ambiguity. The Rolling Stone case was a false accusation in that the events described didn't even happen at all. And that was known to people on campus, and the journalists had failed to do very basic fact-checking like – The victim's friends are described as having treated her a certain way. And like, okay, well, you have to talk to those people. And so those people came out and said, this woman's crazy. She made this up. She's catfished us. She was in love with this person on campus and was trying to be like a damsel in distress. Like there was no party on the night in question. There was nothing happened. Nothing. This is not on any level. Right, yeah, yeah. Like some very- That was a hoax. 这个——至少有可能存在一些模糊空间。《滚石》事件是一起虚假指控，因为所描述的事件根本没有发生过。而这一点在校园里的人们是知道的，记者们未能做最基本的事实核查，比如——受害者的朋友们被描述为以某种方式对待她。然后，你必须去和这些人谈谈。于是那些人出来说，这个女人疯了。她编造了这件事。她骗了我们。她爱上了校园里的某个人，并试图扮演一个处于困境中的少女。那个夜晚根本没有派对。什么事情都没发生。完全没有。从任何层面上来说都不是。对，对。就像一些非常——那是一个骗局。

Robby Soave（19:38） This was a controversy. Right, some very violating, uncomfortable circumstances did happen to this woman. Yeah. And again, I want to emphasize that that is wrong. 这是一个争议。对吧，这个女性确实遇到了一些非常侵犯性、不舒服的情况。是的。我再次要强调，这种行为是错误的。

Christian Britschgi（19:50） And if you think the purpose of a university is to like foster and develop good human beings- It was not doing that. Well, I think some kind of, not disciplinary, but some kind of action on the university's part to have this be a learning experience, would have been, would be perfectly fine. I would not have any problem with that. It's actually one thing I like about th The prior guidance from the Obama administration made that impossible. Yeah. Because the second a Title IX complaint is made, it's now a trial where there's a, you know, it's an adversarial process whether the victim wants it or not. You can file under the old rules. You can file a Title IX complaint now. Without being the victim. That's, yeah. Isn't that insane? It happened. I covered cases where it was a, wasn't even sexual violence, it wasn't violence at all, was a fight between a couple that was yelling at each other and someone overheard and filed a Title IX complaint on the woman's behalf. And she's like, I'm fine. I was not assaulted. The University had to go through with the investigation. And yeah, this is some like real French revolution stuff. 如果你认为大学的目的是培养和发展优秀的人——它并没有这样做。 嗯，我认为大学方面采取某种行动，不是纪律处分，而是某种行动，让这成为一次学习经历，本来是非常好的。 我对此没有任何问题。 这实际上是我喜欢的一件事。奥巴马政府的先前指导使这成为不可能。 是的。 因为一旦提出第九条投诉，现在就成为一个审判，无论受害者是否愿意，这都是一个对抗性的过程。 您可以按照旧规则提交。 您现在可以提交第九条投诉。 无需成为受害者。 就是这样，是的。 这不是疯了吗？ 它发生了。 我报道过的案件是，甚至不是性暴力，根本不是暴力，而是一对夫妇之间互相大喊大叫的争吵，有人无意中听到并代表该妇女提出了第九条投诉。 她说，我很好。 我没有被袭击。 大学必须进行调查。 是的，这有点像真正的法国大革命。

Robby Soave（21:35） It was real bad. Yeah, and also there's that aspect too, where it's like, you will have the advantage by being the first mover, right? 情况真的很糟。情况真的很糟。是的，还有那个方面，就是，你作为先行者会有优势，对吧？

Christian Britschgi（21:46） Yes. 是的。

Robby Soave（21:46） Yeah, explain that. 是啊，解释一下。

Christian Britschgi（21:47） Yes, because then you're like the acted upon party because, right, so the law does not care in New York 是的，因为那样的话你就像是被动的一方，对吧，所以在纽约法律并不在意

Robby Soave（21:54） that you're drunk or intoxicated on drugs if you took them willingly. But let's say you have a situation where, let's say the law is different, and if you are incapacitated by drugs or on ketamine, then consent is withdrawn. Your consent is automatically withdrawn. You're no longer consenting. But then you have this problem where two drunk people have sex, and so what? Do they rape each other? Exactly. Right. Male number one is the first person to opt out of this sexual encounter because he's too drunk and he's about to throw up. So he would be the victim. So right. So then it's whoever goes to the police first. Right, yeah. That doesn't make any sense. But also it wouldn't make any sense 如果你自愿服用药物，那么你是醉酒或药物中毒的情况。但假设你遇到一个不同的情况，比如法律不同，如果你因药物或氯胺酮而丧失能力，那么同意就会自动撤回。你的同意会自动撤回，你不再同意。但问题在于，如果两个醉酒的人发生性关系，那么又如何呢？他们会互相强奸吗？正是如此。没错。男性一号是第一个退出这次性行为的人，因为他太醉了，快要呕吐。所以他会是受害者。没错。所以接下来就是谁先去报警。对，是的。这也没有任何道理。而且，这样确实也讲不通。

Christian Britschgi（22:29） that you raped each other, then what do we, like this is why this makes no sense. I get you could take the position and maybe some people would, that the woman is the acted on party or like I guess the penetrated party or something is the, Yeah. You could try to come up with something like that. But our legal system doesn't really like different rules for people based on gender. Sex organs. Right. Yeah. I get men and women are different enough that maybe something like that can fly, but it makes me a little uncomfortable. 你们互相强奸了，那么我们怎么办呢，这就是为什么这完全说不通。我明白你可能会采取这样的立场，也许有人会认为，女性是遭受行为的一方，或者说是被穿透的一方，类似的立场。是的，你可以试着想出类似的理由。但我们的法律体系并不喜欢根据性别、性器官给人制定不同的规则。对吧。是的，我明白男性和女性足够不同，也许这种观点可以成立，但这让我有点不舒服。

Robby Soave（23:01） Yeah. I don't know if that would clear. Yeah. What's the standard for sex differentiation? Intermediate scrutiny. 是的。我不知道那是否会被清除。是的。性别区分的标准是什么？中间审查。

Christian Britschgi（23:06） Yeah. I don't know if it would, particularly if it's like criminal offense. Yeah. I mean, there were cases back when I was covering this where man woke up the next day, hazy encounter, went straight to the Title IX office just to have the advantage of being the first mover. Just like as a prophylactic. Yeah. That's crazy. This is fucking nuts. Talk to them about avoiding situations like this. Yeah. Always being with a friend who's going to be much more sober than you if you're going to a party of this kind. Yeah. But don't... Setting clear boundaries ahead of time. You know, if you're the woman... If you're the man, look, no girl is going to want to do... Like... Not literally no one. There are some very free-spirited women who enjoy this kind of... At that age, it's going to be very unlikely. Very unlikely. Just got to college, huge amounts of drugs. And also ketamine. We should talk a little bit about that. Ketamine causes... It knocks you out. Yeah, it makes you dizzy and kind of hallucinating. Yeah. And it makes things like wavy around you. It's not like, like cocaine is like. You're hopped up. Drinking like an energy drink. Yeah. Right. It kind of increases your alertness for a short while. I mean, it can also cause, it's the more dangerous of the drugs because it could cause you a heart attack or something. 是的。 我不知道是否会这样，特别是如果它像刑事犯罪一样。 是的。 我的意思是，当我报道这个问题时，有过这样的案例：第二天，一个人醒来，朦胧的遭遇，直接去了第九条办公室，只是为了获得成为先行者的优势。 就像预防药一样。 是的。 太疯狂了。 这真是太疯狂了。 与他们讨论如何避免此类情况。 是的。 如果你要去参加这种聚会，总是和一个比你清醒得多的朋友在一起。 是的。 但不要……提前设定明确的界限。 你知道，如果你是女人……如果你是男人，听着，没有女孩会想做……就像……不是真的没有人。 有一些非常自由奔放的女性喜欢这种……在那个年龄，这是不太可能的。 不太可能。 刚上大学，大量吸毒。 还有氯胺酮。 我们应该谈谈这一点。 氯胺酮会导致……它会让你昏倒。 是的，它会让你头晕并产生幻觉。 是的。 它会让你周围出现波浪状的东西。 这不像可卡因那样。 你跳起来了。 像能量饮料一样饮用。 是的。 正确的。 它会在短时间内提高你的警觉性。 我的意思是，它也可能导致，它是药物中更危险的，因为它可能导致你心脏病发作或其他什么。

Robby Soave（24:41） It makes you feel invincible. Right. Whereas ketamine. Right. Is going to make you kind of lay down. Yeah, it's like a horse tranquilizer or something. Right, right. But you would... 它让你感觉无敌。对。而氯胺酮。对。会让你有点想躺下来。是的，它就像一种马用镇静剂什么的。对，对。但你会...

Christian Britschgi（24:50） It has a suppressing effect on top of alcohol. Yeah. So it's, yeah. So, yeah, that's not like... Again, it's... You can do all these... Things under these circumstances, but you should just be more clear ahead of time that this is what we're going to do. But again, the reason they can't charge it is there is some degree of discussing what's going to happen and it being consented to in the statement she made. Maybe the statement's inaccurate. Maybe the police really botched it in their transcribing of it. I'd love to read the entire document or the direct transcripts, those things. But if I'm the DA and I get this document, you're just not going to prosecute. Yeah. So it's not because you don't like her or something. All right, tough situation. Tough one, but we can, yeah, we'll move on to something else. Thanks y'all for bearing with me. 它对酒精有抑制作用。是的，所以，是的。所以，是的，这并不是说……再说一次，它是……你可以在这些情况下做所有这些事，但你应该提前更清楚地说明，这就是我们要做的事情。但再次强调，他们无法起诉的原因是，在她所作的陈述中，对将要发生的事情进行了某种程度的讨论并且获得了同意。也许陈述不准确，也许警方在记录时真的搞砸了。我很想阅读整份文件或直接的转录稿，或者那些东西。但如果我是地方检察官，拿到这份文件，你就是不会去起诉。所以并不是因为你不喜欢她或什么。好了，情况棘手。确实棘手，但我们可以，是的，我们会转到其他事情。感谢大家的耐心陪我讲完。

Robby Soave（25:40） It's just, cause Title IX issues, this is something I used to cover with such a- Catch your teeth on this stuff, yeah. 只是，因为第九条问题，这是我过去经常涉及的事情——这种东西你会抓住不放，是的。

Christian Britschgi（25:46） Regularity, and it's sad that things like this are still happening. I mean, fraternities are, I don't know, maybe they're just- 规律性，很难过这样的事情仍然在发生。我的意思是，兄弟会是，我不知道，也许它们只是——

Robby Soave（25:53） Bad institutions. Maybe? Yeah. Did you read, there was a long, at this same week, there was a long Atlantic article about fraternities from Caitlin Flanagan, who's pretty great. And just all the, you know, all the problems with them. 糟糕的机构。也许？是的。你有没有读到，在同一周，有一篇由凯特琳·弗拉纳根写的关于兄弟会的长篇《大西洋》文章，她非常棒。就是所有的，你知道的，关于它们的各种问题。

Christian Britschgi（26:05） But then, you know, for all the negative experiences, you hear about them. And then for some people have lots of very positive experience. And that's like your network community. 但是，你知道，对于所有的负面经历，你都会听说它们。然后有些人有很多非常积极的经历。这就像是你的网络社区。

Robby Soave（26:14） And they use stories in there. You know, mothers are so worried about their sons in college because they didn't make any friends. And then they joined a fraternity and then they have purpose. And, you know. 他们在那里也会用故事。你知道，母亲们非常担心她们上大学的儿子，因为他们没有交到朋友。然后他们加入了一个兄弟会，然后他们有了目标。你知道的。

Christian Britschgi（26:25） So I don't think they should be abolished, but definitely this kind of thing should be much more strictly monitored for their own liability reasons, if nothing else, for human decency. Yep. All right. Speaking of death threats, did you enjoy the data center party? We got a few death threats after that. 所以我认为它们不应该被废除，但肯定这类事情应该为了自身的责任问题，至少为了人类的体面，更加严格地监控。是的。好吧。说到死亡威胁，你喜欢数据中心的聚会吗？那个之后我们收到了几条死亡威胁。

Robby Soave（26:45） I don't know if you saw that. Yeah. Data After Dark. That was a good time. It was a great party. So this is like super like inside the Beltway, obviously. But you probably don't care. We're inside the Beltway. Fuck it. Yeah, we live here. They're like, oh, this isn't going to convince people to have data centers. It wasn't about that. It wasn't for you. Yeah, right. It was for me. Yeah, someone was complaining to me on Twitter about how like the people who organized the party weren't like energy policy experts. I'm like, well, okay. You got it. 我不知道你是否看到了。是啊。Data After Dark。那真是美好的时光。那是一个很棒的派对。那是一个很棒的派对。所以这显然是在 Beltway 内部，非常内部。但你可能不在乎。我们在 Beltway 内部。管它呢。是啊，我们住在这里。他们会说，哦，这不会让人们去建设数据中心的。这不是为了那个。不是为了你。是的，对。是为了我。是的，有人在 Twitter 上抱怨说组织这个派对的人不是能源政策专家。我说，好吧，你明白了。

Christian Britschgi（27:10） Yeah, we know the people who organized it, Ed Tarnowski, Jonas, Young Voices. In order to push back against the data center backlash, people organized a pro data center party. 是的，我们认识组织这件事情的人，Ed Tarnowski、Jonas、Young Voices。为了应对数据中心的反对，人们组织了一场支持数据中心的派对。

Robby Soave（27:20） And then our colleague Reem had her vertical video asking people why they like data centers at the party. And then in response to that, you know, the video is kind of a hit. A lot of people making fun of it, whatever. It was all tongue in cheek. It was all fun. But there was a remarkable number of comments where it's like these people should be put in concentration camps. 然后我们的同事 Reem 拍了一个竖屏视频，在聚会上问人们为什么喜欢数据中心。然后对此，嗯，这个视频算是挺受欢迎的。很多人开玩笑嘲弄什么的。完全是开玩笑的、好玩的。但有相当多的评论却说这些人应该被关进集中营。

Christian Britschgi（27:39） Yeah, Crystal Ball, who's one of the commentators on Breaking Point, yeah, she like quote tweeted the picture, because they put up, they really did this party well. There were funny pictures everywhere. 是的，Crystal Ball，她是《Breaking Point》的评论员之一，是的，她就转发了那张图片，因为他们发布的，真的办得很棒的派对。到处都是有趣的照片。

Robby Soave（27:50） Virginia is for servers instead of Virginia is for lovers, which is the motto of Virginia. So there was a photo of that and someone tweeted it and Crystal Ball quote tweeted it, it was like, this is the most depressing thing I've ever seen. They're taking my beautiful, my homeland, my, my, my, my, the land. Okay. 弗吉尼亚是为服务员而不是弗吉尼亚是为恋人，这是弗吉尼亚的座右铭。所以有一张那样的照片，有人发了推特，Crystal Ball 引述转发了它，就像，这是我见过的最令人沮丧的事情。他们正在夺走我的美丽，我的家乡，我的，我的，我的，我的土地。好吧。

Christian Britschgi（28:08） We have to build things. Yeah. Oh, that was, was so funny. There was, um, where's she at? I think it's Daily Wire. Uh, one of their reporters. Yeah. Um, I, Mary Margaret. Yeah. Right. She said a similar thing. Yeah, she's like, Virginia is a land of rolling horse farms. We can't give it over to the data centers. Like, you literally have the largest concentration of data centers in the world in northern Virginia. 我们必须建造东西。是啊。哦，那真是太有趣了。嗯，她在哪里？我想是在 Daily Wire。嗯，他们的一位记者。是的。嗯，我，Mary Margaret。是的，对。她也说了类似的话。是的，她说，弗吉尼亚是连绵起伏的马场之地。我们不能把它交给数据中心。就像，你实际上在北弗吉尼亚有世界上最多的数据中心集中地。

Robby Soave（28:28） There's still going to be plenty of horse farms. And there's still tons of horse farms. Yeah. There's tons of wineries. The data centers provide the money for you to have the fucking horse farm. 仍然会有很多马场。而且仍然有大量的马场。是的，有大量的酒庄。数据中心提供资金让你拥有该死的马场。

Christian Britschgi（28:37） People, I think, have a bad conception of, like, how much space there is in the country. Yeah. There is... So much empty land. There's so much empty land here. Yeah. 我认为，人们对这个国家有多少空间有一种错误的认识。是的。这里有... 太多空地了。这里有太多的空地。是的。

Robby Soave（28:49） And then the further west you go. It's, there's nothing. Nothing. Yeah. 然后你越往西走，就什么都没有。什么都没有。是的。

Christian Britschgi（28:54） Force, like, the data centers are very big and they take up a lot of space. Yeah. Relative to another building. Yeah. But. A five mile by five mile concrete building is not, we ran out of places to have picnics. It will never, ever happen. It's just not like, there is so much space. Yeah, that's actually a very good point, which is that people just can't comprehend space, right? Like square acreage, right? You just, you see a data center and it's like, well, that's big. We can't have more of those, right? Right. Yeah. You ever see those maps that go around where it's like the percentage of America that's dedicated to, you know, rural housing, urban housing, whatever. Well, you're such a map fetishist. I am. Yeah. I get off. Yeah. 力量，比如，数据中心非常大，占用很多空间。是啊。相对于其他建筑物。是啊。但是。一栋五英里乘五英里的混凝土建筑并不是，我们没地方野餐了。那永远不会发生。就是不会发生，空间太多了。是啊，这实际上是一个非常好的观点，就是人们根本无法理解空间，对吧？就像平方英亩，对吧？你只是看一个数据中心，然后觉得，好大啊。我们不能有更多这样的，对吧？对。是啊。你有没有看到那些地图，到处都是显示美国土地中用于乡村住宅、城市住宅等的百分比。你真是地图迷。我是啊。是啊，我很喜欢。

Robby Soave（29:40） Yeah. 嗯。

Christian Britschgi（29:41） Longitude. Latitude. Yeah. No, I love map porn. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Both. I'll take it in both poles. Yeah. Oh God. Oh. Sorry. But yeah, like, oh, the entire, all of South America is, you know, like, 经度。纬度。是的。不，我喜欢地图色情。是的。是的。是的。两者。我会在两个极地都接受它。是的。哦，天哪。哦。抱歉。但，是的，像，整个，整个南美洲，你知道的，就像，

Robby Soave（30:00） I was going to say South of America. No, that's the point. Like it's all east of the Mississippi or something like that. Is that true? Something like that. I don't know. Something. Yeah. Weird facts like that. Ooh. 我本来想说美洲南部。不，那是重点。就像它全都在密西西比河以东之类的地方。是真的吗？差不多是这样。我不知道。我不知道。某种情况。是啊。像那样的奇怪事实。哦。

Christian Britschgi（30:12） Yeah. 嗯。

Robby Soave（30:13） We're above Europe right now. Ooh. Yeah. 我们现在在欧洲上空。哦。是的。

Christian Britschgi（30:16） You could fit. Right. Yeah. Exactly. You could fit China and Russia in this part of Africa. Whoa. 你可以容纳。对。是的。准确地说。你可以把中国和俄罗斯放进非洲的这一部分。哇。

Robby Soave（30:20） Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Yeah. Don't even get me started on how big Greenland is. 是啊。是啊。完全是。是啊。别让我开始说格陵兰有多大了。

Christian Britschgi（30:23） But like, yeah, you see these maps going around where it's like, here's how much is forestry land and here's how much is ag land. And like housing is like a tiny portion. 但是，比如说，你会看到这些地图到处流传，上面显示了这是多大面积的林地，这是多大面积的农业用地。而住房占的比例很小。

Robby Soave（30:31） All the housing in the country, right? And so like data centers, I mean, it's like, what, 50 million square feet in Virginia? Whenever they're like, we're running out of space, I'm like, stop. That's too dumb. I can't listen because what you just said was too dumb. Right. 全国的住房，对吧？还有像数据中心，我的意思是，在弗吉尼亚州，大概有多少，5000 万平方英尺？每当他们说，我们快没地方了，我就会想，停下。那太蠢了。我不能听，因为你刚才说的话太蠢了。对吧。

Christian Britschgi（30:45） That's where I'm at with the data center stuff. I know, and it's so bad. We're gonna be out of touch elitists, but we're right. We are completely correct. 这就是我在数据中心方面的现状。我知道，这非常糟糕。我们将成为脱离实际的精英主义者，但我们是对的。我们完全正确。

Robby Soave（30:52） And I honestly, I don't wanna have to pretend like you have legitimate, like you're not forming coherent human thoughts anymore. Crystal and Sagar were talking about, they did a video mocking our data center party 老实说，我真的不想假装你有合理的想法，就像你不再能形成连贯的人类思维一样。Crystal 和 Sagar 在谈论他们做了一个视频，嘲笑我们的数据中心派对

Christian Britschgi（31:04） and mocking Reem's video. How dare they? And it was polite mockery, but they're like- I'd throw a Loudoun County iced tea in their face. 并且嘲笑瑞姆的视频。他们怎么敢？他们怎么敢？虽然是礼貌的嘲笑，但他们就像——我真想把一杯劳登县冰茶扔到他们脸上。

Robby Soave（31:13） But Sagar was like, you know, I was okay with data centers, you know, when it was just like for the internet, but it's just like now I'm against them. And I'm like, okay, because now, but now we have like different needs. I don't like, and a hundred years from now, you'll be like, well, data centers are fine, but you know, multi-dimensional data centers are not okay. Like we know you'll just adjust to it and say it's fine. 但是萨加尔就像，你知道，当数据中心只是为了互联网的时候，我还可以接受，但现在我反对它们了。我就说，好吧，因为现在我们有了不同的需求。我不喜欢，而且一百年后，你会说，数据中心没问题，但多维数据中心不行。我们知道你会适应并说没问题的。

Christian Britschgi（31:35） And just, you're just against the new thing, right? Everybody has this reflexive dislike of new or chang 你只是，单纯反对新的事物，对吧？每个人对新东西或变化都有这种反射性的反感

Robby Soave（32:05） I think people are just gonna hate these things and it's gonna happen anyway. And then they'll get used to it and then they'll hate whatever coming next. I think, so I'm like a pessimist for changing public opinion on this very rapidly. I think it will continue to be kind of not good. 我认为人们只是会讨厌这些东西，而这无论如何都会发生。然后他们会习惯它，然后又会讨厌接下来的任何事情。我想，所以我对迅速改变公众对此的看法持悲观态度。我认为情况会继续有点不太好。

Christian Britschgi（32:24） The problem, the worry that you should have is we kind of went, you know, like when the country had a massive anti-growth pro-environmentalism kind of swell in the 60s and 70s. And some of the environmental stuff is understandable, given that like there was much more pollution back then. 你应该担心的问题是，我们有点走向了，你知道的，就像在 60 年代和 70 年代，当国家出现了大规模的反增长、亲环境主义的浪潮时。考虑到当时污染要严重得多，一些环保措施是可以理解的。

Robby Soave（32:44） Smoke-filled cities. Yeah, yeah, yeah, sure. Smog. Get that smog out of there. Get the smog down. That's great. Yeah, you know what doesn't produce smog? Fucking data center. Unless they have an on-site gas plant. But that's the gas plant. That's not the data center, right? Anyway, anyway. 烟雾弥漫的城市。是的，是的，是的，当然。有雾霾。把那雾霾清除掉。把雾霾降下来。那太好了。是的，你知道什么不产生雾霾吗？他妈的数据中心。除非他们有现场燃气厂。但那是燃气厂。那不是数据中心，对吧？无论如何，无论如何。

Christian Britschgi（32:57） We did, like, stuff still gets built, right? But, like, we did also pass a host o More data centers will be built, but fewer of them will be built. And then we'll also just like add another crust of restriction to this morass of red tape that's already weighing down this great land of ours. You know, it's funny on my way to the data center party, I was like right out of like the beginning of a science fiction movie. Because in DC now, they're having some of those like delivery, like little robots, right? I don't know if you've seen them around. Oh yeah, I've seen them. Yeah, they're very cute. So cute. Yeah. I feel protective of them. 我们确实，像，东西仍然会被建造，对吧？但是，像，我们也确实通过了一大堆更多的数据中心将会被建造，但建造的数量会更少。然后我们还会只是像在已经压在我们这片伟大土地上的繁文缛节混乱上再加一层限制。你知道吗，我在去数据中心派对的路上，很有趣，就像刚开始那种科幻电影一样。因为现在在华盛顿特区，他们有些像递送的小机器人，对吧？我不知道你是否见过它们。哦，是的，我见过。是的，它们非常可爱。太可爱了。我觉得自己想保护它们。

Robby Soave（33:55） Yeah. I patted one on the head the other day. But anyway, so like I'm walking to the data center party. I see one of these. We're weird. Yeah. Just so people know. Yeah, fuck it. You know, that's what this is about. Let's let our freak flag fly. Yeah. Yeah. Pro robot. Yeah. But yeah, so I see one of the robots and there's like a couple like frat guys like kind of mildly fucking with it, right? Like they're not like... 是啊。我前几天拍了一个机器人的头。不过不管了，我正走向数据中心派对的时候，看到了其中一个。我们很奇怪。是啊，让大家知道一下。是的，管它呢。你知道，这就是我们要表达的意思。让我们的怪癖旗帜飘起来。是的。是的，支持机器人。是啊，所以我看到其中一个机器人，有几个兄弟会那种有点儿开它玩笑，对吧？他们不是那种完全…

Christian Britschgi（34:17） I'm not sure if you can hear me. 我不确定你是否能听到我。我不确定你是否能听到我。我不确定你是否能听到我。我不确定你是否能听到我。我不确定你是否能听到我。我不确定你是否能听到我。我不确定你是否能听到我。我不确定你是否能听到我。我不确定你是否能听到我。我不确定你是否能听到我。我不确定你是否能听到我。我不确定你是否能听到我。我不确定你是否能听到我。我不确定你是否能听到我。我不确定你是否能听到我。我不确定你是否能听到我。我不确定你是否能听到我。我不确定你是否能听到我。我不确定你是否能听到我。我不确定你是否能听到我。我不确定你是否能听到我。我不确定你是否能听到我。

Robby Soave（34:39） I'm not sure if you can hear me. 我不确定你是否能听到我。我不确定你是否能听到我。我不确定你是否能听到我。我不确定你是否能听到我。我不确定你是否能听到我。我不确定你是否能听到我。我不确定你是否能听到我。我不确定你是否能听到我。

Christian Britschgi（34:46） Yeah, you're a highly disturbed individual. It's not a gay thing. 是的，你是一个精神高度异常的人。这不是同性恋的问题。

Robby Soave（34:50） Yeah, robots and humans getting together. What's next? Men and men? Yeah, that's how it starts. 是啊，机器人和人类在一起。下一步会是什么？男人和男人？是的，就是这样开始的。

Christian Britschgi（34:58） Don't want to think about that again. Because I'm a consummate Beltway DC insider. 不想再去想那个了。因为我是一个十足的华盛顿特区核心圈内人士。

Robby Soave（35:32） Yeah, it's nice. Honestly, people make fun of this. That's what I kind of like about DC too. It's like it's a little bit of a one company town, you know, like it's almost like living in a village. 是啊，很不错。老实说，人们会取笑这个。这也是我有点喜欢华盛顿特区的原因。就像是有点像一个公司城镇，你知道的，就像住在一个村庄里一样。

Christian Britschgi（35:40） You just like you see people that you know. It's fun. Yeah. So that's fine. If you don't want that, that's fine. Yeah. And if you really don't want a data center, you're not going to have one. But it's just like, okay, you're gonna, they got to be built. And then because then people will complain. No, I don't want a data center, but then why is my town dying? Why is there no economic productivity? Why does no one want to live here? If you're saying no to this, I bet you're going to say no to anything. Yeah. Well, that's what's so remarkable about it. 你就像你看到你认识的人一样。这很有趣。是的，所以没关系。如果你不想要那个，也没关系。是的。如果你真的不想要数据中心，你就不会有一个。但这就像，好吧，你得，它们必须建造。然后因为那样人们会抱怨。不，我不想要数据中心，但那为什么我的城镇在衰落？为什么没有经济生产？为什么没人想住在这里？如果你对这个说不，我敢打赌你会对任何事情都说不。是的，这就是它如此引人注目的原因。

Robby Soave（36:09） And that's why I just can't. I'm at my wit's end. I hear you. I am too. One of the responses we got, or I was seeing a lot, was like, well, if you like data centers so much, why don't you go live next to one? 这就是为什么我真的受不了了。我已经走投无路了。我听你说。我也是。我们收到的其中一个回应，或者说我看到很多回应是这样的，好吧，如果你那么喜欢数据中心，为什么不去住在一个数据中心旁边呢？

Christian Britschgi（36:20） And it's like, hey, yeah, okay, fine. I'll go buy a house in Loudoun County, sure. And secondly, it's like, this is one of the most innocuous land uses you could imagine, right? I could point out to you exactly in DC where I'd want it to be. It's very close to me. Yeah, yeah. Oh, the big Park World of Teens fight. Yes. You want to turn it into a big data center instead. Yeah, nice. Enjoy your gathering now. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, sure. It would be. But I mean, I'm being perfectly serious. I would happily live next to a data center. 就像，嘿，好吧，行，我去劳登县买房，当然可以。其次，这就是，你可以想象到的最无害的土地使用之一，对吧？我可以直接给你指出在华盛顿特区我想让它在哪。离我很近。是的，是的。哦，大公园青少年大战。是的。你想把它改成一个大型数据中心。是的，很好。现在好好享受你们的聚会吧。是的。哦，是的。是的，当然。会的。但我的意思是，我是完全认真的。我会很乐意住在数据中心旁边。

Robby Soave（36:49） Yeah. I don't even see the problem with it. It's such a ridiculous self-owned to even think that that would be a problem. Yeah. 是啊。我甚至不觉得这有什么问题。想到这会是个问题简直是太荒谬的自我打脸了。是啊。

Christian Britschgi（36:55） Yeah. They don't produce smog. 是的。他们不产生雾霾。

Robby Soave（36:57） Is there some noise? Yeah. 有噪音吗？有的。

Christian Britschgi（36:59） They're very quiet. Right. Because living in a city is loud, by the way. There's lots of stuff going on. Yeah. Car horns and music and shouting. 他们非常安静。对。因为顺便说一下，住在城市里很吵。有很多事情在发生。是的。汽车喇叭声、音乐声和喊叫声。

Robby Soave（37:08） But yeah, so. I don't know, get a call? No, it's all good. It's all good. It's more death threats. 但是，是啊。所以。我不知道，要打个电话吗？不，没事的。没事的。这只是更多的死亡威胁。

Christian Britschgi（37:16） Yeah. You look a little rough this morning. 是啊。你今天早上看起来有点疲惫。

Robby Soave（37:18） Well, we had our screening of the Reason produced documentary about, it's called Escaping Venezuela, about this family that, We're business owners in Venezuela and then became basically like smuggling people in and out of the country. And then the- Based. Yeah. And then the one, the husband was arrested, tortured by the regime. 嗯，我们举办了关于 Reason 制作的纪录片的放映会，这部纪录片叫《逃离委内瑞拉》，讲述了一个家庭的故事，他们是委内瑞拉的企业主，然后基本上成了帮助人们偷渡进出该国。然后——基于这个。是的。然后丈夫被政权逮捕并受到酷刑。

Christian Britschgi（37:43） Oh my God. Because he was an anti-regime activist and all this kind of stuff. And then, so he flees to Miami and then the family is trying to get to Miami as well. And the documentary kind of covers there. Awesome. Persistent failures of socialism lead to more interventions and more authoritarianism. That's all very well done and very clearly explained in the documentary. And then additionally, the thing that I was very enraging about it, and I knew this, but also kind of forgot, 我的天啊。因为他是一个反对政权的活动家，还有这些事情。然后，他逃到迈阿密，家人也试图去迈阿密。纪录片大概就是讲述这个的。太棒了。社会主义的持续失败导致更多干预和更多的专制统治。纪录片中这一切都做得很好，非常清楚地解释了。然后另外，有件事让我非常愤怒，我以前知道，但也有点忘记了，

Robby Soave（38:30） was just like how much like celebrity and leftist love Hugo Chavez got. He really did. Yeah, fucking Michael Moore is partying with them. 这就像名人和左派有多么爱雨果·查韦斯一样。他真的很爱。是的，该死的迈克尔·摩尔正在和他们一起聚会。

Christian Britschgi（38:40） Sean Penn, Kevin Spacey. That fat bastard. Yeah, Michael, yeah, what a pig. 肖恩·潘，凯文·史派西。那个胖混蛋。是的，迈克尔，是的，真是个猪。

Robby Soave（38:45） He really, all his documentaries are like such like lies and misrepresentation. He's like a loathsome individual. But anyway, so why do I look rough is because then afterward we, you know, went out and celebrated freedom in America. 他真的，他的所有纪录片都像是谎言和歪曲。他是一个令人厌恶的个体。不过，无论如何，我看起来粗糙的原因是因为之后我们，你知道的，出去庆祝美国的自由。

Christian Britschgi（38:59） Yeah. 嗯。

Robby Soave（38:59） So, yeah. Well, good. Yeah. So. Well, that's good. 所以，是的。嗯，好。是的。所以。嗯，那很好。

Christian Britschgi（39:03） And we can do that. This is a. 我们可以做到这一点。这是一个。

Robby Soave（39:05） Come on, we haven't had a vintage one of us being hung over episode in a while here. So, you know. Yeah. So it's your turn. Yeah. 来吧，我们有一阵子没有我们宿醉的经典片段了。所以，你知道的。是的。轮到你了。是的。

Christian Britschgi（39:12） No ketamine for me, but I did use some Fernet. What's that? Have you ever had Fernet? No. It's like a herbal liqueur. Yeah, very like minty, like maybe you've done Malort. This is kind of like in a similar vein. Oh, yes. It's a very strong flavor, but... You know who gave me Malort? Was Jackie, Guy Bentley's Jackie. Oh, yeah. I believe it was her who gave it to me at... What's that bar we go to sometimes on... Ivy and Coney? Yes. Yeah. 我不喝氯胺酮，但我倒是喝了一些费尔内特。那是什么？你喝过费尔内特吗？没有。它像是一种草本利口酒。是的，非常像薄荷的味道，也许你喝过马洛特。这有点类似于那种感觉。哦，是的。味道非常浓，但……你知道是谁给我马洛特的吗？是杰基，盖伊·本特利的杰基。哦，是的。我记得是她在……我们有时去的那家酒吧给我的……在常春藤街和科尼街的那家吗？对。是的。

Robby Soave（39:46） Also, yeah, it's like a Chicago bar. It's a Chicago liquor. Yeah. 还有，是的，这就像一家芝加哥酒吧。这是芝加哥的酒。是的。

Christian Britschgi（39:49） There's some video of me from like must be 15 years ago of her giving it to me and me doing like that, that meme reaction. Right. Which I could still Find it. Yeah. I think it was on Facebook. You don't like it, but it kind of leaves you wanting a little more. Yeah. 有一些视频，大概是 15 年前的，我拍到她在给我做那件事，而我做了那个表情包式的反应。对吧。我现在还能找到它。是的，我觉得是在 Facebook 上。你可能不喜欢它，但它有点让人意犹未尽。

Robby Soave（40:05） Yeah. I did not like it. 是的。我不喜欢它。

Christian Britschgi（40:06） I didn't like ketamine either the first couple of times I tried it, but I've warmed to it. Well, be careful. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I always am. Okay. That's good. 我刚开始尝试氯胺酮的前几次也不喜欢它，但我已经习惯了。嗯，要小心。是的。好吧。是的。我总是小心的。好吧，那很好。

Robby Soave（40:17） A lot of caution being exercised. 正在小心谨慎地行事。

Christian Britschgi（40:18） Now that I, by, just remind everyone, my scooter accident was in broad daylight at 5 p.m. coming home from, not because I was on any kind of. Why were you doing ketamine in the office? No, I wasn't. I was not doing anything except thinking about work a little too intensely. I was working a little too obediently. Damn. Yeah. You got to find time for yourself too, you know? Yeah. For safety, if anything. 现在，我只是提醒大家一下，我的滑板车事故发生在下午五点天还很亮的时候，是回家的路上，不是因为我在吸任何东西。你为什么在办公室里用氯胺酮？不，我没有。我什么都没做，只是对工作想得太入神了。我工作得有点过于听话。该死。是啊，你也得为自己找点时间啊，对吧？嗯。为了安全起见，如果有什么意外的话。

Robby Soave（40:42） Well, you've healed up nicely. I've healed. Yeah. I can finally like do pushups again. 嗯，你已经恢复得很好。我也康复了。是啊。我终于可以再次做俯卧撑了。

Christian Britschgi（40:46） I was back in the gym. Yeah. Yeah. I hadn't had a full. Maybe I said this last week. Last week was the first. Well, it wasn't even a full week because I was ill last week, but I'm finally back in the gym. And yeah, I did lose. I can't do my top this anymore. Did I say this last week? Am I repeating myself? Yeah, I think we talked a little bit about your loss of strength. Screw it. We don't have to talk. 我回到健身房了。是的。是的。我已经很久没有完整锻炼了。也许我上周说过这个。上周是第一次。好吧，其实那都不算完整的一周，因为我上周生病了，但我终于回到健身房了。是的，我确实失去了一些力量。我再也做不了我的顶级训练了。我上周说过这个吗？我是不是在重复自己？是的，我想我们稍微谈了一下你力量的下降。算了，我们不必再谈这个了。

Robby Soave（41:08） Well, I'm just worried. That I'm decaying into a... No, I was back up to my full weight. Okay, well, make that statement more clearly, because you've made a lot of enemies, and 嗯，我只是担心。我正在衰退成一个……不，我的体重已经恢复到正常了。好吧，把这个说法说得更清楚一些，因为你已经树立了很多敌人，而且

Christian Britschgi（41:16） I don't want them to think that you're weak and feeble now, right? Oh, yeah, you want to come at me. I mean, come at me, but by the way, don't fucking come at my husband. This was his first time being married to me, and he got some nasty comments. He's like, he got home from... Like an all night hospital shift. And he's like, babe, why are people yelling at you and also me? And I'm like, that's, that's not cool. Yeah. It's not his fault. Yeah. That's no good that he, uh, picked me. 我不想让他们觉得你现在软弱无力，对吧？哦，是的，你想来找我。我是说，来找我吧，但顺便说一句，别他妈的来找我丈夫。这是他第一次和我结婚，他收到了些恶意评论。他就像，他刚从一整夜的医院班回家。他说，亲爱的，为什么有人在对你和我大喊大叫？我说，那样不太好。是的，这不是他的错。是的，他选了我，这一点不好。

Robby Soave（41:43） So yeah, I read, um, I read an interesting, it's just, this is such a curse of our times. Just like when the wider internet can just descend on some people. Uh, I mean, there's obviously the famous black mirror episode about this, uh, nosedive. 所以，是的，我读了，嗯，我读了一篇有趣的文章，只是，这真的是我们这个时代的诅咒。就像整个互联网可以突然涌向某些人一样。呃，我的意思是，显然有那集著名的《黑镜》剧集，是关于这个的，呃，《下滑》这一集。

Christian Britschgi（41:57） No, no, no. Well, No's Life, that's one of my favorites, but Hated in the Nation. Yes! Yeah. With the bees. Yeah, kind of about cancel culture. That's a good one. I read this novel recently, which was, it was okay. It wasn't my favorite, but there was an interesting element of it where, so the plot is basically this kind of nebbish, incel-ish Twitch streamer who, you know, listless in life, drives her Lyft, gets hired by this mysterious woman to take this, the novel is called I'm Starting to Worry About This Black Box of Doom. But while this happens, the entire conspiracy theories start to – they attract the attention of Reddit and conspiracy theories start to fly. So they are completely oblivious to the wider internet, but the entire country is tracking their every movement and eventually descends on them in an episode of comic disaster. But yeah, it's – I just, I don't, I have a little bit of a, so that was an interesting kind of like internet age novel. 不，不，不。嗯，《No's Life》，那是我最喜欢的之一，但《Hated in the Nation》。对！是的。和蜜蜂有关。是的，有点关于取消文化的。那是个不错的。我最近读了一本小说，它还可以，不是我最喜欢的，但有一个有趣的元素。剧情基本上是这样：一个有点窝囊、类似孤独男性的 Twitch 主播，生活懒散，开着 Lyft，后来被一个神秘的女人雇佣去做某件事。小说叫《I'm Starting to Worry About This Black Box of Doom》。但在这期间，整个阴谋论开始——它们吸引了 Reddit 的注意，各种阴谋论开始浮现。他们完全没有意识到更广泛的网络，但整个国家都在跟踪他们的每一个行动，最终在一次搞笑灾难中降临到他们身上。但对，我只是，我有一点点感受，所以这是一本有趣的互联网时代风格的小说。

Robby Soave（43:07） I don't read a lot of, too much contemporary fiction, but I kind of, I did like that element of it. But I have a problem with novels that are lik It's the difference between banter and maybe been in the situation where like someone feels the need to like perform a comedy bit for you in conversation. 我不读太多当代小说，但我有点，我确实喜欢它的那个元素。但是我对那种类型的小说有问题。这就像是闲聊和可能处在某种情况之间的区别，比如有人觉得自己需要在对话中为你表演一个喜剧段子。

Christian Britschgi（43:43） Usually if something is set up as humor or this is supposed to be funny, then it creates this pressure to laugh. Yeah. That causes me to be incapable of it. Yeah. 通常，如果某件事情被设定为幽默或者本应该是搞笑的，那么它就会产生一种要笑的压力。是的。这让我无法做到。是的。

Robby Soave（43:52） It's like, this is why I don't like stand up comedy very much. Yeah, same. Because it's just... 就像，这就是为什么我不太喜欢单口喜剧。是啊，我也是。因为它只是……

Christian Britschgi（43:56） The idea that it's comedy, like comedy should just be accidentally occurring all around me. Right? Not just something I'm signed up for comedy. You know? Yeah, yeah. Right, yeah. Yeah, I feel put upon. 那种想法是它是喜剧，就像喜剧应该只是偶然在我周围发生的，对吧？而不仅仅是我报名参加的喜剧。你懂吗？是的，是的。对，嗯。我觉得很受委屈。

Robby Soave（44:12） Yes, it's put upon. That's exactly what it is. It insists upon itself. Yeah. 是的，这是被强加的。那就是它的本质。它坚持自身。是的。

Christian Britschgi（44:19） It's not funny. Yeah. 这不好笑。是的。

Robby Soave（44:21） Yeah, there's no easy going. No, I mean, there's a lot of, 是的，没有轻松的方式。不，我是说，有很多，

Christian Britschgi（44:24） Some of the television shows I love that are not at all set up, like Mad Men and Sopranos, are both very funny at a lot of the time, but it's not trying to be funny. Right. Like it's the absurdity of what is happening, even though it's like a very realistic. Yeah. Like when they're all on drugs in Mad Men 我喜欢的一些完全没有安排的电视剧，比如《广告狂人》和《黑道家族》，很多时候都非常有趣，但它们并不是刻意搞笑。对，就像是所发生事情的荒诞性，尽管剧情非常现实。对，就像在《广告狂人》中他们都在吸毒的时候

Robby Soave（44:47） and Ken Cosgrove starts tap dancing. It's like... is utterly hilarious. But it's not, it's like, okay, this is a com, like laugh now, right? It's just funny. 然后肯·科斯格罗夫开始踢踏舞。就像……简直是太搞笑了。但其实不是，只是，像，好吧，这是一个喜剧片，像现在笑，好吗？就是很有趣。

Christian Britschgi（45:00） Yeah. Or they're wheeling the, when the old lady dies, who the secretary, Miss Blankenship, and they're trying to get her out of there, 是啊。或者他们在推着，当老太太去世时，秘书布兰肯希普小姐，他们正试图把她从那里弄出去，

Robby Soave（45:09） but there's a meeting going on in the conference room. And you just see them in the background trying to wheel this dead lady out. 但是会议室里正在开会。你只是看到他们在背景中试图把这个死去的女士抬出去。

Christian Britschgi（45:15） And Joan says, we need something to cover her. There's an Afghan in Harry Crane's room. And so they put it, and then later you just hear them in the distance going, Oh, my mother made that. It's so funny. But it's not set up as comedy. Right, right. Yeah. Just don't tell me I'm supposed to laugh. Do whatever you, do what you will, but don't say I'm supposed to laugh. 琼说，我们需要一些东西来盖她。哈里·克兰的房间里有一条阿富汗狗。然后他们放上去，后来你只是听到远处他们说，哦，我妈妈做的。太好笑了。但这不是作为喜剧来设置的。对，对。就是不要告诉我我应该笑。随你做什么，就做吧，但不要说我应该笑。

Robby Soave（45:39） There's a good bit in The Sopranos where they like come over to Junior's house and Firo's like, I'm going to go watch the Bloomberg. And he goes in the other room and you just hear like later, he's like, ah, no cable. No cable. 在《黑道家族》中有一个很有意思的片段，他们去朱尼尔家，菲罗说：‘我要去看彭博新闻。’然后他走进另一间房，你就听到后来他在那儿说：‘啊，没有有线电视。没有有线电视。’

Christian Britschgi（45:51） Yeah, that one is, yeah. Well, we made the point. 是的，那个，是的。好吧，我们已经说明了这个观点。

Robby Soave（45:54） Yeah. All right. 是的。好吧。

Christian Britschgi（45:55） The point is made. 观点已提出。

Robby Soave（45:56） What's another, oh, speaking of funny politics stuff. I want to talk about that, the Jack Smith hearing and that. Oh, that's an interesting, the botched execution. The Jack Smith thing. 还有一个，哦，说到有趣的政治事情。我想谈谈那个，杰克·史密斯的听证会什么的。哦，那很有趣，那个失败的处决。杰克·史密斯的事情。

Christian Britschgi（46:06） Ugh. Yeah, I have to talk about that because I'm mad about it. But yeah, the Eric Schmitt, Jack Smith thing. 呃。是的，我必须谈谈这个，因为我对此很生气。但没错，就是埃里克·施密特、杰克·史密斯的事情。

Robby Soave（46:12） Yeah, so funny. That was very funny. Right. 是啊，真有趣。那真的很搞笑。对吧。

Christian Britschgi（46:15） And hats off to Amy Klobuchar, who's not someone whose policies I would ever compliment. Yeah, this was a good moment for her. 向艾米·克洛布查致敬，她不是我会赞扬其政策的人。是的，这对她来说是一个好时刻。

Robby Soave（46:23） This was a boss moment for her. Yeah. That was like the Chad Amy Klobuchar versus the virgin Eric Schmitt. Sorry, dude. 这对她来说是一个女老板的时刻。是的。那就像是查德·艾米·克洛布查对上处男埃里克·施密特。抱歉，伙计。

Christian Britschgi（46:32） Yeah, he comes at Jack Smith with the, you know, Jack Smith is the, was the prosecutor for January 6th related cases. And now that the shoe is on the other foot, you know, he's being a right wing hate figure 是的，他针对杰克·史密斯，你知道的，杰克·史密斯是与 1 月 6 日相关案件的检察官。现在情况反过来了，你知道，他成了右翼仇恨人物。

Robby Soave（46:42） now. Yeah. 现在。是的。

Christian Britschgi（46:43） And to be clear, I think Operation Arctic Frost did go way too far in a lot of different ways. The obtaining of cell phone data of not just Trump, but many Republican members of Congress seems to have way exceeded any justification for this. 明确地说，我认为‘北极霜行动’在很多方面确实做得太过了。不仅是特朗普的手机数据，连许多共和党国会议员的手机数据的获取似乎都远远超出了任何正当理由。

Robby Soave（46:57） Yeah. So there's legitimate criticisms. Congress should do some good oversight. But of course. Our Republicans can't... It's never stupid enough. 是的。所以有一些合理的批评。国会应该进行一些有效的监督。但当然了，我们的共和党人不能……永远不够愚蠢。

Christian Britschgi（47:06） Nor would they ever constrain, by the way, law enforcement's ability to gather your cell phone data. No, they just don't like it when it's applied to them or their own political activists. But they're not going to stop it. Your Amash's, Paul's, Massey's have always said, so we're going to stop it, right? No. 顺便说一下，他们也绝不会限制执法部门收集你手机数据的能力。不，他们只是不喜欢这种手段被用在他们自己或他们的政治活动家身上。但他们不会阻止它。你的阿马什、保罗、马西之类的人一直在说，所以我们要阻止它，对吧？不。

Robby Soave（47:21） Padme, they're Padme. And Eric Schmitt's the, you know, the Anakin there, but okay. So he thinks he has Jack Smith. Dead to rights. Because he has text messages of Jack Smith at a basketball game in Georgia, which is at the same time that Fannie Willis, who's the prosecuting the Georgia aspect of the election stuff. And you remember that she's the one who then was like, she put her lover in charge of the case. She like carried a sack of money to a winery with it. She was involved in just embarrassing stuff. 帕德梅，他们是帕德梅。而埃里克·施密特就是，你知道的，那里的阿纳金，不过好吧。所以他认为他掌握了杰克·史密斯的把柄。因为他有杰克·史密斯在乔治亚一场篮球比赛的短信，而那时法妮·威利斯正在起诉乔治亚那边的选举相关事务。你记得她吧，她后来把她的情人安排负责这个案子。她还拿着一袋钱去了酒庄。她卷入了很多令人尴尬的事情。

Christian Britschgi（47:55） So that case like collapsed because they put this complete idiot in charge of it. But, oh, was he coordinating with her? And he was, the basketball game was like a pretext to be there. And the text messages sound like maybe that's what he's referring to. And they hold up the text messages. And he's just like, well, I don't. It's like, I don't think I've ever been, I don't think I was there. I was not there at that time. I'm not sure I've ever been. And they're like, oh, but we have you. Liar, perjurer. And then they quickly put them down. And Amy Klobuchar, it's then her turn. She's like, wait, can you put that up again? And they're like, no, no, no. We're putting it down. And they're kind of like, Okay, well, you can't hide it from us. Yeah. Like, the guy still has the board. What does it say? Yeah. They confused the Hawks and the Hawkeyes. Right. 所以那个案子崩溃了，因为他们把这个完全的白痴放在了负责的位置上。但，他是在和她协调吗？而且他确实是在协调，篮球比赛只是个借口去那儿。而那些短信听起来也许就是他在指的那个。他们展示了那些短信。他只是说，好吧，我不……就像，我不认为我曾经，我不认为我在场。我当时不在。我不确定我有没有去过。他们说，哦，但我们有你的证据。骗子，伪证者。然后他们很快把他压下去。接着轮到艾米·克洛布彻。她说，等一下，你能再放上那个吗？他们说，不，不，不。我们要把它拿下。他们有点像，好吧，你不能对我们隐瞒。是的，那家伙仍然拿着那块板。上面写什么？是的。他们把老鹰队和霍基队搞混了。对。

Robby Soave（48:40） He was at an Iowa basketball game. In Maryland. Yes. Not in Atlanta watching the Hawks. So whoever prepped the senator on this screwed up royally. To a laughable degree. Right. Yeah, someone made the observation to me is like, this is how you know your staff is infested 他在爱荷华的篮球比赛上。在马里兰。是的。不是在亚特兰大看老鹰队。所以无论是谁给参议员准备的资料，全都彻底搞砸了。到了一种可笑的程度。对。是的，有人对我说过观察就是这样的，这就是你知道你的团队被搞砸了的方式。

Christian Britschgi（48:58） with like alt-right groipers because they don't know anything about sports. Right, they don't care about sports. Like a traditional Republican, you know, SEC school guy would have- Some, this is a closeted white nationalist. Yeah. Closeted in terms of his sexual orientation and then also, Not closeted in terms of being a white nationalist. There's an outright white nationalist who's also closeted, is the person who got this wrong. But yeah, Klobuchar was just... And Eric Schmitt is... He's like, well, I don't... He's getting so flustered. 因为他们对运动一无所知，所以和类似极右团体的人在一起。对吧，他们根本不关心运动。就像一个传统的共和党人，你知道，来自东南联盟学校的人会——有些人，这是一个隐藏的白人民族主义者。是的，隐藏的是他的性取向，同时在白人民族主义方面则不隐藏。有一个公开的白人民族主义者，同时又是隐藏的人，就是那个搞错的人。但对，克洛布查只是……而埃里克·施密特是……他就像，嗯，我不……他已经很慌乱了。

Robby Soave（49:27） And so Matt went, 于是马特去了，

Christian Britschgi（49:28） are you interrogating me now? And Klobuchar's just like... Okay, I think we see what you did here though. It was a- It's very embarrassing. 你现在在审问我吗？而克洛布查就像……好吧，我想我们已经看到了你在这里做了什么。这真的很尴尬。

Robby Soave（49:36） It was an awesome moment. Yeah, it's remarkable too, because I mean, Eric Schmitt, he was the AG for Missouri, right? Yeah. Yeah, so I should understand how you're a lawyer, you're in a position of prominence. You should be a competent person and you've just been made stupid. Is that what happened? Yeah. Like- It's like Mike Lee. Yeah, well, yeah. 那是一个很棒的时刻。是的，这也很了不起，因为我的意思是，埃里克·施密特，他是密苏里州的总检察长，对吧？是的。是的，所以我应该明白你是一名律师，你处于显赫的位置。你应该是一个有能力的人，而你刚刚变得愚蠢了。是这样发生的吗？是的。就像——就像迈克·李一样。是的，好吧，是的。

Christian Britschgi（49:56） Tell me about it, right? Yeah. Yeah. Very smart man. Yeah. 跟我说说，对吧？是啊。是啊。非常聪明的人。是啊。

Robby Soave（50:00） Yeah. 嗯。

Christian Britschgi（50:00） Social media has rotted his brain inside out. To a remarkable degree. Yeah. 社交媒体已经把他的脑子彻底腐蚀了。到了一个惊人的程度。是的。

Robby Soave（50:04） Yeah. An alarming degree. Yeah. 是的。到了一种令人担忧的程度。是的。

Christian Britschgi（50:07） But. The, I saw a news report this morning, apparently that the aide who held up the text message. Yeah. 但是。我今天早上看到一条新闻报道，显然是那个拿着短信的助手。是的。

Robby Soave（50:15） Poster board was supposed to be moving to the White House, taking a job in the White House, and that has been put on hold. Damn. Yeah. Ouch. Yeah. Well, I feel bad if they had nothing to do with putting the poster together, but... They just had to hold it. Yeah. None shall be spared. Yeah. Pretty funny one. It is pretty hilarious. Yeah. Sorry, Republicans. We got to make fun of you when you do something that stupid. Yeah. Well, just don't do... 海报板本来应该要搬到白宫，去白宫上班，但这件事被搁置了。该死。是啊。哎呀。是的。嗯，如果他们跟做那个海报没有关系的话，我会觉得很不好意思，不过……他们只是不得不搁置它。是的。没有人会被放过。嗯。相当搞笑。确实很滑稽。是的。抱歉，共和党人。当你们做出这么愚蠢的事时，我们不得不取笑你们。是的，好吧，只要不要……

Christian Britschgi（50:38） Yeah. It's like the Simpsons line. It's like, if you're going to get mad at me for doing stupid things, I guess I just won't... I'll have to stop doing stupid things. Yeah. And also, they thought this was such a slam dunk that they had told the right-wing influencers that they had pre-warned Benny Johnson that this was going to happen. So he had a tweet up right as it was happening, like, oh my God, look, he was coordinated with Vani Wills or whatever it said. 是啊。这就像《辛普森一家》里的台词。就像，如果你因为我做蠢事而生我的气，那我想我只能……我得停止做蠢事。是的。而且，他们以为这件事是如此轻而易举，以至于他们告诉了右翼影响者，他们已经提前警告了本尼·约翰逊，这件事会发生。所以他在事情发生的同时就发了推文，就像，天哪，看，他和瓦妮·威尔斯有协调，或者推文是这么写的。

Robby Soave（51:01） And then he had to delete that. Oh, and they also tried to get a little buzz because this was supposed to be, there was some story about like, oh, maybe he would be a VP for Vance, you know? And so this was supposed to be, you know, clearly there was a lot of media operations, machinations going on. But at the core of your story is bullshit. And again, it's unfortunate because now the media was just like, look at this idiot, which is fair. When there was true, there was, there are things to be concerned about with the scope of this investigation. You should be doing actual oversight. Yeah, this is my frustration with the various Fauci hearings, particularly the later ones. You have someone like Rand Paul who is... 然后他不得不删除那个。哦，他们还试图搞点小动作，因为本来应该有一个故事，比如，也许他会成为 Vance 的副总裁，你知道吗？所以本来应该是，你知道的，很明显有很多媒体操作和阴谋在进行。但从你故事的核心来看是胡说八道。再说一次，这很不幸，因为现在媒体只是像，看这个傻瓜一样，这也公平。当时确实有一些值得关注的问题，关于这项调查的范围。你们应该进行真正的监督。是的，这就是我对各种 Fauci 听证会的挫败感，特别是后期的那些。像 Rand Paul 这样的人……

Christian Britschgi（52:00） You could have a little bit of respect for like the power that you have and your ability to elicit answers from this controversial public figure. But no, that would be too smart. I don't mean too smart for democracy right now. Democracy, man. Yeah. Just wrapping up this Citizen's book. It's taken me a while. It's like 900 pages about the French Revolution. Yes. But yeah, they just killed the king. Very sad. Very sad. It is sad. I don't like it when they do that. No, Louis, he was a bad... Well, I think in more, less turbulent times, he would have been replacement level. He would have been a Rutherford B. Hayes type, you know, king, right? People would have no strong opinions about him, right? 你可以对你拥有的权力以及你从这个有争议的公众人物那里获得答案的能力稍微表示一点尊重。但不，那样太聪明了。我不是说现在民主不需要太聪明。民主啊，伙计。是的。我刚在读完《公民》这本书。花了我好一阵子。大约 900 页，讲的是法国大革命。是的。但他们刚刚杀了国王。非常悲哀。非常悲哀。确实很悲哀。我不喜欢他们那样做。不，路易，他是个坏……嗯，我觉得在更平静的时期，他可能只是普通水平。他会像卢瑟福·B·海斯那样的国王，人们对他不会有强烈的看法，对吧？

Robby Soave（52:43） But he was dealt a pretty rough hand. I think about this with like monarchs who are overthrown, like which ones, like... You're just screwed. You have a, like, your regime is going to fall and there's really nothing you can do about it. Versus who just makes a bunch of catastrophic decisions and is really bad at the job when they could have easily danced out of this. It's like a Charles I is someone who did not need to be overthrown, could have quite easily persisted. Well, by not fighting with Parliament so much, yeah. Yeah, and even after he loses the war, just, like, make a deal and go back to being king, right? Yeah. 但他确实遭遇了相当艰难的处境。我想到那些被推翻的君主，比如说哪些君主……你就是完蛋了。你的政权注定要倒台，而你真的无能为力。相比之下，有些人只是做出了一堆灾难性的决定，而且在本可以轻松应对的时候却非常糟糕。就像查理一世，他其实不需要被推翻，本可以相当轻松地继续统治。嗯，如果他不和议会作那么多对抗的话，是的。是的，即使他输掉了战争，只要达成协议，然后重新成为国王，不是吗？是的。

Christian Britschgi（53:19） Czar Nicholas. He was also, but he was dealing with religious fundamentalists who I can't. But he was also a religious. I hate Cromwell so much. Yeah. I just hate Cromwell. 沙皇尼古拉。他也是，但他正在应对我无法处理的宗教原教旨主义者。但他也是一个虔诚的人。我太讨厌克伦威尔了。是的。我就是讨厌克伦威尔。

Robby Soave（53:28） An authoritarian. 独裁者。

Christian Britschgi（53:29） Yeah. He was a military dictator. Yeah. 是的。他是一个军事独裁者。是的。

Robby Soave（53:31） Yeah. I don't like his low church Protestantism. Yeah. I mean, there's, yeah, there's. I sympathize with Charles I just for being on the other side of Cromwell. But he was also a religious fanatic in his own way. He had very clear ideas about what he wanted to see the Church of England look lik 是的。我不喜欢他的低教会新教主义。是的。我是说，有，嗯，有。我同情查理一世，仅仅因为他站在克伦威尔的对立面。但他自己也是某种意义上的宗教狂热分子。他对自己希望看到的英格兰教会样子有非常明确的想法。

Christian Britschgi（54:03） Once the war starts, you're done. I mean, he could have saved himself by leaving Russia at any point up until the end. He could have. I mean, he could have just quit and abdicated. Sure. Right. 一旦战争开始，你就完了。我的意思是，他本可以在战争结束前的任何时候离开俄罗斯来挽救自己。他本可以。我是说，他本可以干脆辞职并退位。当然，没错。

Robby Soave（54:13） No, I think I'm of the belief that like the autocracy, the czar could have persisted for a lot longer had World War I not happened. Oh, well, yeah. 不，我认为我的看法是，就像专制一样，如果不是第一次世界大战发生，沙皇可能会持续更久。哦，好吧，是的。

Christian Britschgi（54:25） Yeah, but. And so the thing is, like, well, he was responsible ultimately for bringing his country into war. And so that is kind of like his fault at the end of the day. Sure. But Louie, no, like you inherit a bankrupt regime and then there's a giant famine in the middle of you trying to do like constitutional reforms. Yes. No one wants to work with you. Yes. Yeah. Even if you are really smart. I don't think it would have worked. Well, and then like vicious people come to power. Yeah. I mean, there are vicious people and Cromwell is his own, vicious is not the right word to describe him, 是的，但是。事情是这样的，他最终对将自己的国家拖入战争负有责任。所以归根结底，这在某种程度上是他的错。没错。但路易，不是这样的，你继承了一个破产的政权，然后在你试图进行宪法改革的过程中遇到了严重的饥荒。是的，没有人愿意和你合作。是的。即使你非常聪明，我也不认为会成功。然后像恶毒的人上台。是的，我是说，有些人很恶毒，而克伦威尔他本人，用恶毒来形容他并不合适。

Robby Soave（54:57） just an authoritarian. Yeah. 只是一个专制者。是的。

Christian Britschgi（55:00） Lenin, certainly a vicious person, you know, zealot. Yeah. Bloodthirsty. Yeah. 列宁，当然是一个恶毒的人，你知道，狂热分子。是的。嗜血的。是的。

Robby Soave（55:07） Yeah. Louis was also dealing with some bloodthirsty people in the grips of a revolutionary fervor. Yeah. This is what's this is a mania. This is what's taken hold. This is so what what's so remarkable about reading the book is like there's these it's just like such a French story. So everything's everything's so emotional. Right. So like there's the spasm of violence. Right. And then Louis goes out there and, you know, give some concession and then everyone is like weeping and they're in love with the good king again. Right. 是的。路易也在应对一些处于革命狂热中的嗜血之人。是的。这就是一种狂热。这就是占据人心的东西。这就是阅读这本书如此引人注目的原因，就像这是一个典型的法国故事。一切都充满了情感。对吧。就像有暴力的痉挛。对吧。然后路易走出来，给出一些让步，然后每个人都哭了，他们又爱上了这位贤明的国王。对吧。

Christian Britschgi（55:36） And then it just keeps happening. And you realize lik 然后它就一直发生。然后你意识到就像

Robby Soave（55:57） There was a lot of mob violence in the revolution and like the people getting out of control, right? No one really has control of the situation. But there was a lot of very planned bloodshed as well. So sometimes like the narrative of mob violence lets the Jacobins off the hook when they are contemptible and disgusting people who, you know. 在革命中有很多暴民暴力，就像人们失去控制一样，对吧？没有人真正掌控局势。但也有很多精心策划的血腥事件。所以有时暴民暴力的叙述让雅各宾派逃脱了责任，而他们实际上是令人鄙视和令人厌恶的人，你知道的。

Christian Britschgi（56:16） They plan this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, right after they overthrow the king in 1792, in August, there's this thing called the September Massacres, where basically they just clear out the prisons and butcher people. And for a lot of time, like, kind of like the lefty historiography of this was a mixture of, like, oh, you know, the people got out of control, right? And also, maybe this was kind of a good thing, right? Depending on where you fall on the spectrum. But Citizens, like, one of its... 他们策划了这个。是的，是的，是的。就像，在他们在 1792 年推翻国王之后的八月，有一个叫做九月大屠杀的事件，基本上就是他们清理监狱并屠杀人们。而且在很长一段时间里，这种事情的左翼史学史就是一种混合体，比如说，哦，你知道的，人民失控了，对吧？还有，也许这算是一件好事，对吧？这取决于你站在谱系的哪一端。但《公民》，像，它的其中一个...

Robby Soave（56:45） This is a production of the Center for Autism and Related Disorders, a production of the Center for Autism and Related Disorders. That was kind of an irony. You remember Jacobin the magazine. Sure. Allegedly named after the Haitian Jacobins. Sure. 这是自闭症及相关障碍中心的制作，自闭症及相关障碍中心的制作。那有点讽刺。你还记得《雅各宾》杂志吧。当然。据说是以海地的雅各宾命名的。当然。

Christian Britschgi（57:15） Although that isn't necessarily better. Isn't that different? Yeah. 虽然那不一定更好。那不是不同吗？是的。

Robby Soave（57:20） But they had a very good essay after Charlie Kirk was assassinated saying like, you know, we can't, you know, we can't go down this road of political violence, which I really 但是在查理·柯克被暗杀后，他们有一篇非常好的文章，说类似的，你知道的，我们不能，我们不能走上这条政治暴力的道路，我真的

Christian Britschgi（57:29） appreciated coming from them. Yes. But it's also like, who's your fucking magazine named after? Right. Come on. Right. Yeah. This is why I never understood about the Young Turks podcast. And I think I have no real problem with I like and I disagree sometimes, 感谢他们的认可。是的。但这也像是，你他妈的杂志是以谁的名字命名的？没错。快点吧。没错。这就是为什么我从来不懂《青年土耳其人》播客的原因。我想我其实没什么真正的问题，我有时候喜欢，有时候不同意,

Robby Soave（57:43） you know, Cenk and Anna, Kasparian are fine. That's a weird name for, you know, given that the Young Turks were the genocidal leaders of the genocide of the Armenians was perpetrated. But and I think Anna even is Armenian or something. She has a kind of Armenian. Kasparian is an Armenian sounding name, isn't it? 你知道，Cenk 和 Anna Kasparian 是没问题的。那个名字有点怪，你知道的，考虑到青年土耳其党是实施亚美尼亚人大屠杀的种族灭绝领导者。但是我觉得 Anna 甚至可能是亚美尼亚人或类似背景。她的名字有种亚美尼亚的感觉。Kasparian 听起来像是亚美尼亚名字，对吧？

Christian Britschgi（58:01） I don't know why you picked that one. Not to do any cancel culture type thing, but I've always wondered about it. The young turd. 我不知道你为什么选那个。不是要搞什么抵制文化类型的事情，但我一直很好奇。那个年轻的混蛋。

Robby Soave（58:08） Yeah, we wouldn't call this podcast. 是的，我们不会称这个为播客。

Christian Britschgi（58:09） I wouldn't call it like the 9-11 hijackers or something. The stormtroopers, yeah. There was an attempted plane hijacking. 我不会说它像 9-11 劫机者之类的事情。风暴兵，是的。曾经有一次未遂的飞机劫持。

Robby Soave（58:15） Oh, whoa, yeah, right. It's a nut. Okay, and already conservatives are doing outrage at like how it was portrayed. 哦，哇，是的，对。太疯狂了。好吧，而保守派已经对它的呈现方式感到愤怒了。

Christian Britschgi（58:24） It's not confirmed that it was a terrorism rather than just a crazy person. 还不能确认这是恐怖主义行为，还是只是一个疯子所为。

Robby Soave（58:29） If it is a terrorist, fine. 如果是恐怖分子，那也没关系。

Christian Britschgi（58:31） Like I'm not trying to downplay- The motives of the assailant are a little unclear. It was a co-pilot attack the pilot. 我不是想轻描淡写——袭击者的动机有点不清楚。这是副驾驶袭击了驾驶员。

Robby Soave（58:36） Oh, well. And it's pretty amazing how it all was resolved very quickly. Yeah. 哦，好吧。而且事情能这么快解决，确实很令人惊讶。是啊。

Christian Britschgi（58:41） You want to, if something's bad, you want to be on a plane full of Israeli ex-commandos or whatever, or everyone in the state of Israel to fight for their lives at every time. But yeah, it was the co-pilot stabbed the pilot and took the plane into a nosedive. That's why I wonder if it was a terrorist attack or just like a... There have been examples of someone flying the plane, goes psychotic and kills everyone. There's that case in Germany. Yeah. 你想，如果有事情出了问题，你希望坐在满是以色列前特种兵的飞机上，或者希望以色列全体公民在任何时候都为自己的生命而战。但是，是的，是副驾驶刺伤了机长，然后让飞机俯冲坠落。这就是为什么我想知道这到底是一次恐怖袭击，还是只是……有人开飞机时精神失常，杀死所有人。德国就发生过那样的案例。是的。

Robby Soave（59:05） Yeah. That's the likely, the Malaysia airplane that disappeared. That is the likely explanation. Oh, I never heard that theory. 是的。那很可能是那架失踪的马来西亚飞机。这是可能的解释。哦，我从没听过那个理论。

Christian Britschgi（59:11） Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's no other explanation. And actually the pilot, the more research done on like his background, he was going through a rough time. It is the most likely thing that happened. Wow. That's fascinating. I didn't know that. It's a great mystery because the most likely explanation 好。是的。是的。是的。是的。是的。是的。没有其他解释。实际上，对这名飞行员进行更多背景研究后，他当时正经历一段艰难时期。这是最有可能发生的事情。哇，真有趣。我不知道这一点。这是一个伟大的谜，因为最可能的解释

Robby Soave（59:28） is probably what happened. The true one, yeah. Or, you know, aliens took it, who knows. 这可能就是发生的事情。真的那个，是的。或者，你知道，外星人拿走了，谁知道呢。

Christian Britschgi（59:33） But so it could be something like this, or maybe it was a terror stack, I don't know. But the co-pilot starts stabbing the pilot. And then he communicates that to people outside. Cause remember the cockpit door has gotta be closed. Yeah. So then he's able to open the cockpit doors so that a passenger can come in and stop the guy, and which they did. And this all happened very quickly, like a minute and a half. 但它可能是这样的，或者也许是恐怖袭击，我不知道。但副驾驶开始刺杀飞行员。然后他把这件事告诉外面的人。记住，驾驶舱门必须关闭。是的。然后他能够打开驾驶舱门，让一个乘客进来阻止那个人，他们也确实这么做了。这一切发生得非常快，大约一分钟半。

Robby Soave（59:53） I mean, or the plane would have crashed. If you put a plane in a nosedive, 我的意思是，否则飞机就会坠毁。如果你让飞机俯冲，

Christian Britschgi（59:56） it's gonna crash pretty soon. Yeah, right. So everyone is safe. Which is remarkable. Did the pilot survive? Yes. Okay. 它很快就会坠毁。是啊，对。所以每个人都安全了。这很了不起。飞行员幸存了吗？是的。好的。

Robby Soave（60:04） He's under medical care. He's injured, but he is alive. So who was able, how, was he able to land the plane to pilot it to Usagi? I guess. Yeah. Or someone else was? Yeah. I don't know. 他正在接受医疗照顾。他受伤了，但他还活着。那么，谁能够，怎么做，他能够把飞机降落并驾驶到 Usagi 那里吗？我猜是的。嗯。或者是其他人？嗯。我不知道。

Christian Britschgi（60:13） Can you, that's remarkable. That's amazing. Someone on the. Yeah. Good job guys. Yeah. Good job. I watched, man, some of these coincidences. I watched, I was watching like a aviation disaster video with a friend. And what had happened on the plane is like the hydraulic system just like completely there's some like there's like three different redundant hydraulic systems, but they're like joined at one part and there's some rupture, right? Some equipment failure. So basically they have they can't control the flaps and whatever else. Right. But and so they're trying to land this without being able to really control their elevation. And fortunately, have one of the passengers on the plane happened to like design the plane And so they bring him up to the cockpit and he's able to help. It's very unfortunate in that like, they like almost have a safe landing and then there's just like a gust of wind. And so like the plane flips over on its side. And so like some people do die, but many people survive because of their deft piloting. And the fact that this guy who designed the plane is there to... Or was it maybe he was like the he was the he trained the pilots for the airline, something like that. He was like the right guy for the moment. Yeah. Uh, pretty incredible. But yeah, this is also an incredible story. Yeah. There was a, there was that case in Germany where the co-pilot, uh, was like depressed or whatever. 你可以吗，这太了不起了。 太棒了。 有人上。 是的。 干得好，伙计们。 是的。 好工作。 我看到了其中一些巧合。 我看，我正在和朋友一起看航空灾难视频。 飞机上发生的事情就像液压系统一样，完全有一些像三个不同的冗余液压系统，但它们就像连接在一个部件上并且有一些破裂，对吧？ 部分设备故障。 所以基本上他们无法控制襟翼和其他东西。 正确的。 但是，他们试图在无法真正控制高度的情况下着陆。 幸运的是，飞机上的一位乘客碰巧喜欢设计飞机，所以他们把他带到驾驶舱，他能够提供帮助。 非常不幸的是，他们几乎安全着陆，然后就像一阵风一样。 就像飞机侧翻一样。 就像有些人确实会死一样，但许多人因为熟练的驾驶而幸存下来。 事实上，设计这架飞机的这个人是为了……或者他可能是他为航空公司培训飞行员之类的。 他是目前合适的人选。 是的。 呃，太不可思议了。 但是，是的，这也是一个令人难以置信的故事。 是的。 在德国有一个案例，副驾驶，嗯，很沮丧或者其他什么。

Robby Soave（61:36） And, uh, the, the captain takes a nap and he just flies into a mountain. Yeah. 然后，呃，船长小睡了一会儿，然后他就撞上了一座山。是的。

Christian Britschgi（61:41） I had not heard that about the Malaysia Air. That was from that great Atlantic article about it from years ago. It's still probably to this day the best thing I've ever read, mostly about all the debris from the plane has been – they found debris in various places. The Malaysian government has way more information about it 我以前没听说过关于马航的那件事。那是多年前《大西洋》杂志上关于它的一篇很棒的文章。可能直到今天，那仍然是我读过的最好的文章，主要是关于飞机残骸的——他们在各个地方都找到了残骸。马来西亚政府有更多关于这件事的信息。

Robby Soave（62:00） than they're willing to share with people. Yes. 比他们愿意与人分享的要多。是的。

Christian Britschgi（62:02） And then eventually when you read the theory presented is that it was the pilot because – But they wouldn't like way off course, right? Yes, but apparently, according to this article, he had a flight simulator in his house. Yeah. And the last log simulation was this exact path or something like that. He had basically been practicing executing a very dramatic, deliberate... You know, woo, and probably, I think they have data about, because the Malaysian government got some pings for where it was flying. Probably he just, this is so dark, but you take the plane up, way up, The oxygen comes down, everybody passes out. Wow. They go to sleep. Yeah. And then you crash it. Damn. So. Yikes. It's kind of horrifying. Yeah. But horrifying because it's just very plausible. Yeah. Speaking of horrifying, this is the last thing I definitely did wanna get today. Okay, sure. So I know we're grappling with some dark stuff today. Hope everyone's doing okay. We didn't do any trigger warnings or anything, but- 最终，当你阅读所提出的理论时，这是飞行员的原因，因为 – 但他们不喜欢偏离航线，对吗？ 是的，但显然，根据这篇文章，他家里有一个飞行模拟器。 是的。 最后的日志模拟就是这个确切的路径或类似的东西。 他基本上一直在练习执行一个非常戏剧性的、深思熟虑的……你知道，哇，也许，我认为他们有相关数据，因为马来西亚政府得到了一些有关飞机飞行地点的信息。 也许他只是，这里太黑了，但是你把飞机带到上升，上升，氧气下降，每个人都昏倒了。 哇。 他们去睡觉了。 是的。 然后你就把它撞坏了。 该死。 所以。 哎呀。 这有点可怕。 是的。 但这很可怕，因为它非常合理。 是的。 说到可怕，这是我今天最不想得到的事情。 好吧，当然。 所以我知道我们今天正在应对一些黑暗的事情。 希望每个人都一切顺利。 我们没有做任何触发警告或任何事情，但是-

Robby Soave（63:17） We really didn't, yeah. It's okay, the algorithm is gonna nuke us for like- Probably. Yeah. Rape and death, and now the botched execution of Christa Pike, a convicted murderer. You didn't hear anything about this. No, you're telling me this for the first time. 我们真的没有，是的。没关系，算法可能会狠狠惩罚我们——可能吧。是的。强奸和死亡，现在是被判谋杀的克里斯塔·派克的毁灭性处决。你之前没听说过这件事。没有，你这是第一次告诉我。

Christian Britschgi（63:34） Feel like Trump after Ruth Gatorade three times. God, all time great clip. Oh, candles in the wind. Yeah. The background. I thought they added that, but that was actually, it was in the video. 感觉就像特朗普在喝了三次露丝运动饮料之后。天啊，永远伟大的片段。哦，风中的蜡烛。是的，背景。我以为他们加了那个，但实际上，那是在视频里的。

Robby Soave（63:45） What's so, we'll get onto this very dark subject matter, but one comment I do wanna make is, what's so funny about that is that Trump's comments are like perfectly normal and ordinary. He like takes a moment, Whether you agree or not, she's a great lady. Great lady. It met the moment so well. And what's so funny about it is like you're just waiting for him to be like, 好吧，我们会涉及这个非常黑暗的话题，但我确实想说一条评论，那就是，好笑的地方在于，特朗普的评论其实是完全正常和普通的。他会花一点时间，不管你是否同意，她是个很棒的女士。很棒的女士。他应对得非常得体。好笑的地方在于，你只是等着他会像这样说话,

Christian Britschgi（64:08） finally, we got that corpse out of the... No, he didn't. He didn't. And so like the tension between like you're expecting it to come and it never does. That's what I find very funny. But it's also, it speaks to his... You know, like when Rob Reiner died, those appalling things that he said, but Rob Reiner had been taking cheap shots at Trump. So he thought that was justified. I bet Ruth Bader Ginsburg shook his hand and wished him well, and he'd seen, and she'd smiled at him 最后，我们把那具尸体从……不，他没有。他没有。所以这种紧张感在于，你以为它会出现，但它从未出现。这就是我觉得非常有趣的地方。但这也反映了他……你知道的，就像罗伯·赖纳去世后，那些令人震惊的话，但罗伯·赖纳一直在对特朗普进行廉价攻击，所以他觉得那是正当的。我敢打赌，鲁思·巴德·金斯伯格握过他的手，祝他一切顺利，他看到了，她也对他微笑了。

Robby Soave（64:31） and they'd had a perfectly cordial relationship. And so he thought she was a great, right? It's not, for him it's all personal. It's not politics. Which is a good thing and a bad thing. Yeah. 他们之间一直有着非常友好的关系。所以他认为她很棒，对吗？对他来说，这完全是个人的事。这不是政治。这既是好事也是坏事。是的。

Christian Britschgi（64:41） Anyway, okay. Okay, so this is a dark story. Christa Pike, she's a convicted murderer. There's no doubt that she did this. She did this 30 years ago. It was a classmate or it was a camp or something. 无论如何，好吧。好吧，所以这是一个黑暗的故事。Christa Pike，她是一名被定罪的杀人犯。毫无疑问，她做了这件事。她是 30 年前做的。这是一个同学的事情，或者是营地之类的事情。

Robby Soave（64:54） She killed a classmate viciously, grisly, slashed her up. 她残忍地杀了一个同学，还把她划伤了。

Christian Britschgi（65:20） Cool. She's been disagreeing with me. Capital offense. Yeah, capital offense. But in this country, it takes a long time to execute anybody because you got to go through all the procedures, which is kind of just militates against doing it in my view. But I mean, I have, you're probably against for religious reasons. 酷。她一直不同意我的意见。死罪。是的，死罪。但是在这个国家，处决任何人都需要很长时间，因为你必须经历所有的程序，这在我看来实际上是不利于执行的。但我的意思是，你可能因为宗教原因而反对。

Robby Soave（65:41） Yeah, I mean, it's the churches, the Catholic churches condemned capital punishment, which is controversial within the wider Catholic world. Yeah. But I am against it. 是的，我的意思是，是教会，天主教会谴责死刑，这在更广泛的天主教界是有争议的。是的。但我反对它。

Christian Britschgi（65:51） Yeah, I don't have any religious or moral opposition to it. I think for people who have done something so heinous, I don't think there is a moral problem with killing them. My opposition to it has been that you can't – we have wrongfully convicted people and you can't really make amends if you've wrongfully executed someone. Yeah. My – My issue with that has been somewhat mitigated over time because- DNA evidence is- We're getting, it's the odds of getting it wrong seem to be going down to me. Forensics and cameras. 是的，我对它没有任何宗教或道德上的反对。我认为，对于那些做了如此滔天罪行的人，我认为杀死他们在道德上没有问题。我反对它的原因是，你不能——我们有错误定罪的人，如果你错误地处决了某人，你真的无法弥补这一点。是的。我对此的担忧随着时间在某种程度上已经缓解，因为——DNA 证据是——我们越来越有可能获得它，在我看来，出错的几率似乎在下降。法医学和摄像头。

Robby Soave（66:28） I would still, I would reserve it for cases where the guilt is so overwhelming. Like- The crime is so heinous. Like Luigi Mangione is on camera. There's no real doubt that he did it. The Boston bomber people are the one who survived. 我仍然会，我会把它保留给那种内疚感压倒一切的情况。比如——罪行是如此残忍。比如路易吉·曼焦内出现在镜头上。没有真正的怀疑他做过这件事。波士顿爆炸案的人是唯一幸存的人。

Christian Britschgi（66:41） Or not, I don't really care. Life in prison is perfectly fine too, but I don't have strong feelings either way. That's what I'm saying. My strong feeling is that if we're going to do it, we should do it successfully. Yeah. So this, they gave this woman a lethal injection. Yeah. And she survived. Yeah. And this always happens. This has happened many times. So then they have to, she is in agony. They have to take her, they're taking her to the hospital to revive her. So they can later try to kill her again. Yeah. It's completely absurd. What the fuck? Completely absurd. 或者不是，我并不在乎。坐牢的生活也完全可以接受，但我对这件事没有强烈的感受。这就是我的意思。我唯一强烈的感觉是，如果我们要做这件事，就应该成功地完成它。是的。所以，他们给这个女人注射了致死药物。是的。她却幸存了。是的，这种情况总是会发生，已经发生过很多次。所以她会痛苦不堪。他们不得不送她去医院抢救。这样他们之后才能再次尝试杀她。是的。这完全荒谬。什么玩意儿？完全荒谬。

Robby Soave（67:07） This is insane. Yeah. This is obscene. Yeah. I don't think she should be tortured. 这太疯狂了。是的。这太恶心了。是的。我认为她不应该受到折磨。

Christian Britschgi（67:11） I think she should be killed if that's what the state has decided to do. Yeah. We decided not to torture her, but to kill her. Yeah. And I don't, you know, newsflash, it's not hard to kill someone. So I don't know why we're making it this difficult. Yeah. We are doing it in a more barbaric way than your French revolutionaries did. 我认为如果国家决定这么做，她就应该被杀。是的。我们决定不折磨她，而是杀了她。是的。我不，你知道，这不是新闻，新消息，杀一个人并不难。所以我不知道我们为什么要把事情搞得这么复杂。是的。我们做的方式比你们的法国革命者还要野蛮。

Robby Soave（67:30） Yeah. Yeah, oh, the guillotine, a humanitarian intervention. 是的。是的，哦，断头台，人道主义干预。

Christian Britschgi（67:33） Right, because, yes, because hacking at someone with an ax or a sword is brutal, and there's fear and suffering, and they don't maybe die right away, and that's bad. Hanging, I guess if you use the long hanging thing, it like always snaps the neck, but the clumsy, A lot of suffering involved in that. The Lincoln people, the people who sat at John Wilkes Booth and his co-conspirators, they were all hung. 对，因为，是的，因为用斧头或剑砍人很残忍，会带来恐惧和痛苦，而且他们可能不会立刻死去，那很糟糕。绞刑，我想如果使用长绳绞刑器，它几乎总能折断脖子，但笨拙的操作，会带来很多痛苦。林肯遇刺案的那些人，也就是约翰·威尔克斯·布斯和他的同谋，他们都被绞死了。

Robby Soave（68:03） Their feet were kicking many minutes after. The Nuremberg hangman, 他们的脚在许多分钟后还在踢动。纽伦堡刽子手，

Christian Britschgi（68:07） he botched it all too. Did he? Yeah, he did. Don't do that. Don't do any of that. Put the person to sleep with anesthesia and then shoot them in the head. Firing squad, yeah. There's so many ways to do this. Like it has been done. 他也把一切搞砸了。是吗？是的，他确实搞砸了。别那样做。别做那些事情。先用麻醉让人入睡，然后朝他们的头开枪。行刑队，是的。有很多方法可以做到这一点。就像人们已经做过的那样。

Robby Soave（68:25） Yeah. 嗯。

Christian Britschgi（68:25） It is known. Yeah. The reason they're doing it like this, and this is what makes me so mad, is because they don't want anyone to feel responsible. Right. 这是众所周知的。是的。他们之所以这样做，而这让我非常生气，是因为他们不想让任何人感到有责任。对吧。

Robby Soave（68:32） And it's not, they're making it like medical. 而且不是，他们把它弄得像医疗一样。

Christian Britschgi（68:35） Yeah. Like it's a. Right. No, you are killing a person. If we have a problem with that, then we shouldn't do it. 是啊。就像这是一个。对。不是，你在杀人。如果我们对此有问题，那么我们就不应该这么做。

Robby Soave（68:41） Yeah, yeah, well, this is a good argument for getting rid of capital punishment. Then just get rid of it. If you're uncomfortable with the act of killing a convicted killer, 是的，是的，那么，这是一个废除死刑的有力论据。那就废掉它吧。如果你对处决一个被定罪的杀人犯的行为感到不舒服，

Christian Britschgi（68:48） then it shouldn't be done. Then you shouldn't do it. Right. But let's not dress it up in bureaucracy and process. This is a big Kevin Williamson point. Yes. If you're going to kill someone, kill them. Yes. It offends me that we're trying to, we're softening it. We're like doing like soft language about, 那就不应该去做。那你就不应该去做。对吧。但我们不要用官僚主义和流程去粉饰它。这是凯文·威廉姆森的一个重要观点。是的。如果你要杀一个人，就杀了他们。是的，让我感到冒犯的是我们试图，我们在软化它。我们在用软语言谈论它。

Robby Soave（69:02） oh, they just went to sleep for a while. We're unalive, yeah. No. Yeah. That's, we have to be clear-eyed about what we're doing and do it or just not do it. Yeah. So... 哦，他们只是睡了一会儿。我们还活着，是的。不。是的。就是，我们必须清楚地认识到自己在做什么，然后去做，或者干脆不做。是的。所以……

Christian Britschgi（69:11） And just the lunacy, this is like Catch-22, that we're rushing her to the hospital to try to revive her so we can do it right next time. Right, right, yeah. 这简直是疯狂，这就像《第 22 条军规》一样，我们匆忙把她送到医院试图让她恢复知觉，这样下次我们就能做得正确。对，对，嗯。

Robby Soave（69:19） Crazy. Yeah, we have to save her to kill her. Crazy. Yeah, right. Truly crazy. Yeah, some of these, like... Well, just like, yeah, the like, The conventions of due process and rule of law and just humanity start to break down once you have this capital punishment system. Because then the alternative would have been like, oh, well, I guess she's going to die. We'll just leave her to suffer. 疯狂。是的，我们必须救她才能杀她。疯狂。是的，没错。真的疯狂。是的，其中一些，比如……嗯，就像，没错，像这种情况，一旦你有了这个死刑制度，正当程序的惯例、法治以及基本人性就开始崩溃。因为那样的话，另一种选择就是，哦，我猜你会死的。我们就让她受苦吧。

Christian Britschgi（69:39） But obviously, there's laws about, well, you have some duty of care, I'm sure, right? And so then you couldn't do that either. And so, yeah, you just end up in these completely absurd situations. And so it's like just... 但显然，关于这个是有法律的，好吧，你有某种照顾责任，我相信，是吧？所以你也不能那样做。所以，嗯，你最终会陷入这些完全荒谬的情况。所以就像只是...

Robby Soave（69:51） Just put her in a cell for the rest of her life. 就把她关在牢房里一辈子。

Christian Britschgi（69:52） Don't, right. Don't give her that. The electric chair was the same thing. They thought that was going to be a more humane way. That fails to kill people so many times. And it is an awful way to go. But it was sold by some crackpot who's like, oh, yeah, this will be a way worse way to go and failed the first 17,000 times it was used. Yeah. Have you ever watched the documentary Mr. Death? No. But by some Nazis who are doing Holocaust denial, they commissioned him as an expert witness to go over to Auschwitz. And they have films of this. He just gets married. He goes on his honeymoon to Auschwitz, brings his new wife. And he's like going around the gas chambers, like chipping o Um, yeah, it's just, it's one of the bizarre. I've never heard this dude. It's Errol Morris is the documentary. 不要，对。不要给她那个。电椅也是一样。他们认为那会是更人道的方式。但实际上它多次无法致死人。并且那是一种可怕的死法。但有人鼓吹它，说，哦，是的，这会是一个更糟的死法，而且在最初的 17,000 次使用中都失败了。嗯，你看过纪录片《死亡先生》吗？没有。不过有一些否认大屠杀的纳粹，他们聘请他作为专家证人去奥斯维辛。他们有拍摄这段录像。他刚结婚，就去奥斯维辛度蜜月，带着新婚妻子。他在毒气室周围转来转去，像是在［敲打］嗯，是的，这只是一些离奇的事情。我从没听说过这家伙。纪录片是厄罗尔·莫里斯拍的。

Robby Soave（71:33） Oh yeah, he's good reasons. Uh, interviewed him a couple of times. Um, yeah, a lot of his stuff is really good and it's like peak Errol Morris where it's like a weird story just gets weirder and weirder and weirder. Um, I mean, Mr. Death is great. Um, there's also, um, 哦，是的，他有很好的理由。嗯，采访过他几次。嗯，是的，他的很多作品都非常棒，就像埃罗尔·莫里斯的巅峰之作一样，一个本来就奇怪的故事变得越来越奇怪。嗯，我是说，《死亡先生》很棒。嗯，还有，嗯，

Christian Britschgi（71:49） We're getting a feel, but whatever, it's our podcast. We can talk about whatever we want. Go wherever you want. Yeah, he did another one that I love. One of my favorite movies actually of all time, documentary called Tabloid. 我们正在慢慢熟悉，但无所谓，这是我们的播客。我们可以谈论任何我们想谈的话题。去任何你想去的地方。是的，他还做了另一个我很喜欢的作品。实际上是我有史以来最喜欢的电影之一，一部叫《小报》的纪录片。

Robby Soave（71:58） Are you familiar with this one? No. Okay, yeah, I'm just gonna read the Wikipedia page for you. 你熟悉这个吗？不。好吧，是的，我只是想为你读一下维基百科的页面。

Christian Britschgi（72:04） And it's just like, okay, so there's this woman who falls in love with a Mormon missionary, right? And then he goes off to England to do his Mormon missionary work. She believes that he has been, you know, indoctrinated into a cult, right? And so she hires a pilot and some strongmen to go over to England to kidnap this man, secrete him away to a, you know, seaside cottage where she proceeds to... Um, then it comes out through the course of this trial that, uh, oh, she also happened to be like this dominatrix back in Los Angeles. So it gets more salacious. Um, she eventually, I think, yeah, she flees England. She escapes and makes it back to America. And then the final bit of the documentary is, um, she is the first woman to have like her dogs cloned. 就像这样，好吧，有一个女人爱上了一名摩门教传教士，对吗？然后他去英国做他的摩门教传教工作。她认为他已经被，嗯，被洗脑加入了一个邪教，对吗？所以她雇了一个飞行员和一些壮汉去英国绑架这个男人，把他秘密带到一个海边小屋，她就在那儿……嗯，在审判过程中揭露出来，她以前在洛杉矶还是一个女王式主宰者。所以事情变得更耸人听闻。嗯，她最终，我想，是的，她逃离了英国，逃回了美国。纪录片的最后部分是，她成为第一个让她的狗被克隆的女性。

Robby Soave（73:24） She like, yeah, she like goes to Japan or Korea or like the guy is perfected, you know, and she like resurrect her like dead dogs. And then people are like, wait a minute, aren't you that woman? Yeah. And it's it's Errol Morris. I don't know why anyone would ever agree to do an interview with this man. Because he just has these moments where like people are like so blissfully unaware of how insane. 她喜欢，是的，她喜欢去日本或韩国，或者那个男的是完美的，你知道，她好像复活了她死去的狗。然后人们会说，等等，你不是那个女人吗？是的。然后是埃罗尔·莫里斯。我不知道为什么有人会同意接受这个男人的采访。因为他总有那些时刻，人们完全没有意识到有多疯狂。

Christian Britschgi（73:49） I don't know this guy at all. I'm looking him up. Well, he has, he's a, his, one of his innovations is this thing called the Interrotron where, you know, normally in a documentary, right? 我根本不认识这个人。我正在查他。嗯，他有，他是，他的一个创新就是这个叫做‘Interrotron’的东西，你知道的，通常在纪录片里，对吧？

Robby Soave（74:00） It's like, you're talking to me, the camera's over here, right? Yeah. And so, but, and so like you're not looking directly into the camera. Yeah. Yeah. But he has it set up so that his face is projected on a screen and behind it is the camera. And so he does these interviews where, you know, the subject is staring right at you, the viewer effectively. 就像，你在跟我说话，摄像机在这里，对吧？是的。所以，但是，就像你没有直接看摄像机一样。是的。是的。但他设置了这样的一种方式，他的脸会投影在屏幕上，而在屏幕后面是摄像机。因此他做这些采访的时候，你知道，被采访者实际上是在直接盯着你，也就是观众看。

Christian Britschgi（74:18） And there's this bit in tabloid where she's like, you know, she's talking about all the people who are slandering her or whatever. And she's like, sometimes you just tell a lie so often you believe it. 而且在小报上有一段，她说，你知道，她在谈论所有诽谤她的人什么的。她说，有时候你撒谎撒得太多，自己都信了。

Robby Soave（74:27） And he just like fucking holds it for like 10 seconds. It's like, whoa. Yeah. It's like very obvious meta commentary about her own delusions. 然后他就像他妈的坚持了大约 10 秒钟。就像，哇。是的。这就像是对她自己妄想的非常明显的元评论。

Christian Britschgi（74:37） He's very effective with that, too, with Don Rumsfeld. Right. What is that one called? The Unknown Known, that documentary where, you know, Don Rumsfeld, defense secretary during the Iraq war. And there's like a bit in the documentary where he's like talking about like why Saddam didn't just like, you know, agree to flee, you know, just like resign, abdicates. Dictator, abdicate? I don't know. Yeah, okay. And he's like, how could you not just see the disaster that was coming for you? How could you not walk through those next steps? It's like, oh, right, yeah. How could you not do that, Don? Yeah. So yeah, so he's done a bunch of- I get it. Yeah, he's done a bunch of political stuff, but his best stuff is really just like these weird stories that just like get weirder and weirder as documentary goes on. So yeah, Mr. Death and tabloid. Fucking forget about it. I have to check it out. Yeah. Yeah. So. 他在那方面也非常有效，与唐·拉姆斯菲尔德一起。对。那部片子叫什么来着？《未知的已知》，那部纪录片，你知道的，唐·拉姆斯菲尔德，在伊拉克战争期间的国防部长。纪录片里有一段，他在谈论为什么萨达姆不干脆像，你知道的，选择逃跑，辞职，退位。独裁者，退位？我也不清楚。是的，好吧。他说，你怎么可能看不到即将到来的灾难？你怎么可能不预见接下来的步骤？就像，哦，对啊。唐，你怎么可能不那样做呢？是啊。所以，他做了不少事情——我明白。他确实做了很多政治上的事情，但他最棒的作品其实就是这些奇怪的故事，随着纪录片的发展越来越怪。所以，是的，《死亡先生》和小报。完全忘了。我得去看看。是啊。是啊。

Robby Soave（75:32） All right. I think we've made this episode pretty much unwatchable by now. So. Yeah. This will be okay. We have another unreleased one. Great. Now we'll put it out there. Just no one will watch it. 好吧。我觉得到现在为止我们几乎把这一集弄得无法观看了。所以。是的，这没关系。我们还有另一集未发布的。太好了。现在我们会放出来的。只是没人会看。

Christian Britschgi（75:43） Yeah. I think we can leave it there. Okay. Very good. Sounds good. Well, enjoyed your company as always. Thank you, sir. And I think I enlivened your spirits a little bit. I think you're waking up. Yeah. I think now you'd be ready to do a podcast. See you guys next week. 是的。我觉得我们可以就到这里。好的。很好。听起来不错。嗯，一如既往地很享受你的陪伴。谢谢你，先生。我觉得我让你的精神振奋了一点。我觉得你正在清醒过来。是的。我想现在你应该准备好做播客了。下周见，各位。