「Claude 会搞定的」：Anthropic 的 Ami Vora 与 Mike Krieger 谈产品经理这个岗位还剩什么｜Lenny's Podcast

台上三个人的来路

「我们需要一个 PM」：一句被推翻的结论

桥的两端：技术每两个月变一次，人不这么变

被工具吃掉的那门手艺

判断力与不知疲倦

从侧边栏到可改写界面：什么叫 agent 原生

三条并行押注，和「不要过早杀死它」

把项目停进评测里

追前沿的人，和服务大众的人

一年之后：缩小能力与用法之间的那道缝

几个词，几个人

这一期值不值得听

完整中英双语逐字转录稿

00:00 - 10:00

Welcome. How's it going? Good.

中文：欢迎。最近怎么样？好。

Doing great. How are you all?

中文：做得很好。你们都好吗？

So nice to see you all. [cheering]

中文：很高兴见到你们大家。[欢呼]

Isn't this a great event? I feel like it's just it's so happy.

中文：这不是一个很棒的活动吗？我感觉它就是如此令人高兴。

Yeah. It's good vibes.

中文：是啊。感觉很棒。

Yeah. So, I want to start this conversation off with the question that I think is on everybody's minds, which is a year ago we uh were told that AI might make PMs obsolete [laughter] and now I feel like the the vibes are that everyone needs to become a PM. You know, one of the things I love about getting to talk to both of you is just by being an Anthropic and working with the models in the way that you do, you have a little bit of like a sense of where the future is going, especially for different job roles.

中文：是的。所以，我想以一个我认为大家都在关心的问题来开始这次对话，那就是一年前我们被告知人工智能可能会让产品经理变得多余（笑声），而现在我感觉大家的氛围是每个人都需要成为产品经理。你知道，我喜欢和你们两位交谈的一件事就是，仅通过作为 Anthropic 的一员并以你们的方式使用模型，你们对未来的发展有一些感觉，尤其是对不同的工作角色。

And I'd really love for for both of you to talk to us about what is a great PM at Anthropic look like. Is the PM role going away? Is it changing? And if so, how? I think the job of product is always to be a bridge between the real problems that people have in the world and the technology that you can use to solve it. And like that's always been true. And I think a thing that is weird right now is that it used to be that the technology would change like every 10 years or 5 years and now it feels like it changes like every two months.

中文：我真的很希望你们俩能跟我们谈谈，在 Anthropic，出色的产品经理是什么样的。产品经理的角色会消失吗？它会发生变化吗？如果会，具体是怎样的？我认为产品工作的职责一直是成为人们在现实世界中遇到的问题和你可以用来解决这些问题的技术之间的桥梁。这一直都是事实。我觉得现在有点奇怪的是，以前技术大约每 10 年或 5 年才会变化一次，而现在感觉每两个月就会变化一次。

And that's really hard. That's just like a like as a human I feel like it's really hard to learn how to deal with that sort of change. And so what I always think about is like the technology side is changing but the human side like the human side doesn't change that fast. We have the same problems. And so what I always think about is like how can I be obsessed with like solving the human problems and then stay super fresheyed about how the technology works? like how can I basically throw away most of what I know about what used to work to solve this problem and then try again like knowing everything I do about the problem.

中文：这真的很难。这就像……作为一个人，我觉得学习如何应对这种变化真的很难。所以我一直在想的是，技术方面在变化，但人的方面，人类方面变化不那么快。我们仍然面临同样的问题。所以我一直在想的是，我如何能够专注于解决人类的问题，同时保持对技术如何运作的新鲜感？我如何基本上放弃我过去关于解决这个问题的方法的大部分知识，然后在了解我对问题的所有认知的基础上，再次尝试？

And so I feel like that part hasn't changed. Um, what I think has changed is it's almost like rewinding the clock. Like when I back when the dinosaurs were in the earth and I started in product, like we didn't know, we didn't have definitions. Like we just didn't we didn't know what the job was. And so you were just like a general problem solver and you'd like walk around and try to solve a problem until you like ran into a wall and then you would ask somebody or figure it out.

中文：所以我觉得那部分没有变。嗯，我认为改变的是，这几乎像是在倒转时钟。就像当恐龙还在地球上时，我刚开始做产品的时候，我们什么都不知道，我们没有定义。我们只是完全不知道这份工作的内容。所以你只是一个通用的解决问题的人，你会四处走动试着解决问题，直到遇到困难，然后你会去问别人或者自己想办法解决。

And I feel like that's what we can do now is go back to a bunch of the roles blurring, but like you just keep going and try to figure out what's going to work and then when you hit a wall, you have all these different sorts of scaffolding.

中文：我觉得我们现在可以做的是回到许多角色的模糊状态，但你只需继续前进，尝试找出什么可行，然后当你遇到障碍时，你会有各种不同的支撑系统。

Yeah, that makes sense. Mike, anything from you?

中文：是的，那很有道理。迈克，你有什么要说的吗？

I think for me, I had a real like um sort of realization moment recently and so earlier beginning of the year shifted to an IC role. So, I'm mostly building. Um, and we were getting close to shipping something. And recently, uh, and one of the like PM leads works with Ami pulled me aside and was like, "Mike, I know you love to build. This project's going well. Like, it's looking really exciting. Like, we really need APM on this project." I was like, "I don't know. Like, do we need a PM?

中文：我觉得对我来说，我最近有一个真正的、嗯，有点像顿悟的时刻。今年年初，我转到了一个个人贡献者（IC）的角色。所以，我主要是在做建设工作。嗯，我们快要发布某个东西了。最近，嗯，其中一个与 Ami 合作的产品经理（PM）负责人把我拉到一边说：“Mike，我知道你喜欢建设，这个项目进展顺利，看起来非常令人兴奋，我们真的需要一个助理产品经理（APM）来参与这个项目。”我当时就想，“我不知道，我们真的需要一个产品经理吗？”

Like, Claude's got it. Like, we've got a lot going on." And she's like, "No, we really need a PM." And it like such a reminder like once they joined like all of the things and all the glue and all of the connective tissue and all of the things that were about to get dropped if I had not done that would that would have happened. And it was like just such a cool eye opening like before and after. Um so much so that the week later I pinged her and I was like cat you were 100% right.

中文：就像，Claude 明白了。就像，我们有很多事情要处理。她说，‘不，我们真的需要一个项目经理。’这就像一个提醒，一旦他们加入，所有的事情、所有的粘合剂和所有的连接组织以及如果我没有做的话即将被遗漏的所有事情都会发生。这真是一个非常酷的、让人豁然开朗的前后对比。嗯，以至于一周后我联系她，我说，Cat，你完全是对的。

Um [laughter] and thank you. And it was just and I think about all the things that that encompassed. was, you know, actually bringing along, we're a company that serves everybody from, you know, proumers all the way to really large enterprises. Like, have you brought all of that contingency along? Right? When uh we need to go and figure out how to enable our customer success team to like talk about the changes as questions come up in real time. Has somebody thought about that? Has somebody looped in safeguards? It's obviously very very important.

中文：嗯（笑声）谢谢你。我只是……我在想所有包含在其中的事情。其实，这是把整个过程带上来的意思。我们是一家服务所有人—from 自由职业者到大型企业的公司。你带上所有的意外情况了吗？对吧？当我们需要去弄清楚如何让我们的客户成功团队在实时出现问题时能够讨论这些变化的时候，有人想过这个吗？有人考虑过加入保障措施吗？这显然非常非常重要。

Are people getting kept like kept on track? All of these things. And nobody has infinite capacity even with you know the assistance of these tools. So to be able to have like call it what you will but somebody playing that role of making sure that everything is going to go well everything is going to get connected. we've kept the end user needs in mind, Tommy's point, and that the builders who are like heads down and are like, you know, in full-on Claude mode can keep doing that without having to then pop out and do the very different activity, which is how do you actually make sure all these things go well is like I think very essential.

中文：人们是否被保持在正轨上？所有这些事情。即使有了这些工具的帮助，没有人拥有无限的能力。因此，能够有人扮演那个角色，无论你怎么称呼，就是确保一切顺利进行、一切都能连接起来。我们始终考虑终端用户的需求，正如 Tommy 所指出的，而那些专注工作的构建者们，比如全身心投入到 Claude 模式的人，可以继续专注而不必跳出来去做完全不同的活动，也就是如何确保所有这些事情顺利进行，我认为这是非常必要的。

And I think all that's happened now is that because we can move faster, that role is like you have to be operationally excellent in that role in a way that like even beyond what you had to be before. But it definitely has not gone away. In fact, I have felt this like renewed like yes, this is a like if you're recruiting for a team and you need people to wear these hats, this hat is increasingly important.

中文：我认为现在发生的情况是，因为我们能够更快地行动，所以那个角色就像你必须在操作上非常出色，甚至超过你之前所需的水平。但它绝对没有消失。事实上，我感觉到这种角色有了一种新的重要性：是的，如果你正在为团队招聘，需要人们承担这些职责，这个职责变得越来越重要。

Can I ask you a serious question though?

中文：不过我可以问你一个严肃的问题吗？

So, only serious questions. Serious. This is serious.

中文：所以，只问严肃的问题。严肃点。这是严肃的。

Why didn't you just have Fable do it? [laughter] Like, what is And I presumably there's some like Fable 7 you've got access to that we don't have access to yet. So, like what is that person doing that you couldn't just have Fable do? I mean it is interesting like the we have as you can imagine we like run on Claude Code and we have a lot of like you know Claude provided connective tissue too and it does catch things where you say hey like there's another thing going on in this other part of the organization that you should be aware of you know like we found it via the slash search.

中文：你为什么不直接让 Fable 去做呢？[笑声] 就像，我猜大概有某种 Fable 7，你们可以访问，而我们还不能用的那种。所以，那个人到底在做什么，你们不能直接让 Fable 去做？我的意思是，这确实很有趣，你可以想象，我们运行的是 Claude 代码，而且我们有很多，比如说 Claude 提供的连接功能，它确实可以抓到一些东西，比如你说，嘿，在组织的其他部分还有另一件事情你应该知道，我们就是通过斜线搜索发现的。

So there is that sort of piece as well. I don't think Claude is a convenor yet. I had this um I gave a talk a couple weeks ago on like what's the role of the human in the like post super powerful AI age and there's like a bunch of archetypes I was thinking about but one of it was like the convenor like somebody still needs to bring the Claudes and the people together to like get the work done and so I think that is the role that I cla organizational pull or the scheduling ability I've yet this is going to be a moment Dan when Claude schedules a meeting with me or for me where I'm like who scheduled this meeting it's like oh did I thought you two should talk chat that has not happened yet [laughter] but not because it can't I guess we just like turned on that setting, you know.

中文：所以也有那种类型。我觉得 Claude 还不是一个召集人。我前几周做了一个演讲，主题是在人类进入超级强大 AI 时代后，人类的角色是什么，我当时在思考很多原型，其中之一就是召集人——仍然需要有人把 Claude 和人们聚集在一起完成工作。我觉得这就是我的角色——组织协调能力或排程能力。我还没有经历过——Dan 会记住这个时刻，当 Claude 为我安排会议时，我会想‘这是谁安排的会议？’——然后才发现‘哦，我觉得你们俩应该谈一谈’。这种情况还没有发生过（笑），但不是说不可能，我猜我们只是还没启用那个设置，你懂的。

I [laughter] stay tuned.

中文：我（笑）敬请关注。

I um I think we're also living in a world where like the tools are really good and you can build a lot of things and you can build them really fast. In some ways that just like expands the universe of what is possible to build and you still need to have really good judgment about like what to build based on sometimes pretty limited information cuz it feels like everything's moving really fast. So you have to like figure out what to build and then I think you in some ways you have to be even more relentless about making sure it happens because there's so many forking paths that you could take.

中文：我，我觉得我们也生活在一个这样的世界里，工具非常好，你可以构建很多东西，而且可以构建得非常快。在某种程度上，这只是扩大了可以构建的可能性的范围，而你仍然需要对要构建什么保持非常好的判断力，因为有时信息相当有限，因为感觉一切都在快速变化。所以你必须弄清楚该构建什么，然后我认为在某种程度上，你必须更加毫不动摇地确保它发生，因为有太多你可以选择的分叉路径。

Yeah. I have an idea of what we need to do and I have the feedback loop to the people who are going to use it and I know what the human problems are and I'm just going to go for it. And I think that sort of relentlessness and like judgment in the face of ambiguity is is really important.

中文：是的。我大致知道我们需要做什么，并且我有一个反馈循环可以传达给将要使用它的人，我也知道人类存在的问题，我就会去做。我认为这种在模糊情况下的坚持不懈以及判断力非常重要。

That is definitely something that I have found, you know, every time there's a shift, every time new models come out, it's it's sort of like you're looking out on the ocean, you're like, what's beyond the horizon? And then you get to fast forward beyond the horizon and what do you see? Well, there's more stuff. There's like a whole new landscape, you know? It's not it's not like a utopia and it's not like horrible. It's like there's just new lots of new things to discover and navigate. And I think the same is true for just models in general.

中文：那绝对是我发现的事情，你知道，每次发生变化，每次有新的模型出现，就像你在海上眺望，你会想，地平线那边有什么？然后你快进到地平线的那一边，你会看到什么？嗯，有更多的东西。有一个全新的景观，你知道吗？这不是乌托邦，也不是糟糕透顶。只是有许多新的事物等待去发现和探索。我认为对于模型本身也是一样的道理。

when we were talking Ami in and in in planning for this conversation, one of the things that you said and you've had a long career in product management um but prior to Anthropic is that you spent decades learning how to answer specific kinds of questions as a product leader that you now no longer need to answer. And so I'm curious about okay, what are the skills that you spent such a long time building that you actually don't feel like are that useful anymore? and what are the things that you're leaning on now more and then how does that how does that filter down into the team and your expectations for people that you hire?

中文：当我们在为这次对话进行规划时谈到 Ami，你曾说过一件事，你在产品管理方面有着长久的职业生涯，但在加入 Anthropic 之前，你花了几十年时间学习如何以产品领导者的身份回答特定类型的问题，而现在你实际上已经不需要再回答这些问题了。所以我很好奇，嗯，你花了那么长时间建立的哪些技能，现在实际上你觉得不再那么有用？而你现在更多依赖的是什么？然后，这又是如何影响到你的团队以及你对招聘人员的期望的？

I think it's really true like I spent a really long time trying to understand how to put myself in the mindset of a user and how something would fit into their lives and like what we should build because it was so expensive to build and ship something. So, you know, literally this would happen where people would have reviews and what we'd talk about is like, am I where should we put this button, you know, and we would talk about the interaction pattern and where like someone's finger would go on their phone and what situation they they would be in where they pulled their phone out of their pocket and what they wanted.

中文：我真的觉得这很真实，因为我花了很长时间试着理解如何将自己置于用户的思维模式中，以及某件东西如何融入他们的生活，以及我们应该构建什么，因为构建和发布东西的成本非常高。所以，你知道，这种情况真的会发生，人们会进行评审，我们讨论的就是，比如，这个按钮该放在哪里，然后我们会讨论交互模式，比如某人的手指在手机上的位置，以及他们在什么情况下会把手机从口袋里拿出来，并且他们想要什么。

And I feel like I tried really hard to get good at that at that mix of like product and design. And I just like I don't think anyone's ever going to ask me that question again.

中文：我觉得我真的很努力去擅长那种产品和设计的混合。我只是觉得，我想再也不会有人问我那个问题了。

That's a fable. That's a fable one. [laughter]

中文：那是一个寓言。那是一个寓言啊。[笑声]

That's in the past. Like now it's actually faster to just build three versions and try them out and be like, "Oh yeah, this works for this one." So a thing that I prided myself on is like not actually that useful anymore. And I do think that's really hard just in terms of identity. We talk about the innovator's dilemma when it comes to companies where like you're so good at one thing, you keep on trying to do it even when there's this other thing that maybe you should try doing, but you can't because you're already so good at one thing.

中文：那已经是过去的事了。现在实际上更快的方法是直接做三个版本然后尝试一下，然后说：“哦，这个对这个版本有效。”所以我曾自豪的东西现在其实并不那么有用了。我确实认为，就身份认同而言，这真的很难。我们在谈论公司的创新者困境时会说，你在一件事情上做得非常好，你会不断尝试去做它，即使有另一件事情你可能应该尝试去做，但你做不到，因为你在一件事上已经做得太好了。

And I feel like that's also true on a personal level where I sometimes feel like, oh, I know what I'm good at. I'm just going to keep on trying to do that even when there might be a different way to do it that might be more important in the future. And so that's what I just encourage everyone to think about. Like when you think about that product bridge, part of the technology changing every two months is you have to throw away what you knew about yourself in the job using that technology and just try something different.

中文：我觉得在个人层面上这也是正确的，有时候我会觉得，哦，我知道自己擅长什么。我会继续尝试去做那些事情，即使可能有一种不同的方式去做，在未来可能会更重要。所以我只是鼓励每个人去思考这个问题。比如，当你考虑那个产品桥梁时，每两个月技术都会发生变化，你必须放弃自己在使用那项技术的工作中所了解的关于自己的知识，然后尝试一些不同的东西。

And most of the time I don't know if I'm going to be any good at it, you know, like I've never worked at a model company. Like I just this is not a place where I expertise and I I just kind of I feel like every couple of months I have to constantly be like, "All right, well, let's try this other thing and see if I can figure it out." You know,

中文：而且大部分时间我都不知道自己是否能做好，你知道的，比如我从来没有在模特公司工作过。这不是我擅长的地方，我只是觉得每隔几个月我都必须不断地想着，‘好吧，那我们试试这个别的东西，看看我能不能搞明白。’你懂的，

what are the characteristics of someone that is able to do that well? And what have you had to develop in order to do that well?

中文：一个能够很好地做到这一点的人有哪些特点？为了很好地做到这一点，你必须发展哪些能力？

I mean, I think it comes back to the the sorts of things we were talking about. I think like raising your ceiling on tolerance for change and being willing to embrace change is super important. Like so I think adaptability I mean I'm sure this is not new. Like adaptability is just such a key thing given how rapidly the world is changing. Um, I think that sense of like judgment and relentlessness as we talked about, those are like the things that I keep coming back to and really what I try to think about for the team is like I think it's important to talk about those things because otherwise it can feel really lonely like you're the one who has to constantly adapt but actually everybody has to constantly adapt and I think it's hard on all of us.

中文：我的意思是，我觉得这又回到了我们之前讨论的那些事情。我觉得，比如说提高你对变化的容忍度，并且愿意接受变化，这非常重要。比如说，我觉得适应能力，我想这应该不算新鲜事。鉴于世界变化如此之快，适应能力真的是一个非常关键的因素。嗯，我觉得像我们之前讨论的那种判断力和坚韧不拔的精神，这些都是我一再回到的东西，实际上也是我为团队所思考的。我觉得谈论这些事情很重要，因为否则你可能会感到非常孤单，就好像你是那个必须不断适应的人，但实际上每个人都必须不断适应，我觉得这对我们所有人来说都很不容易。

10:00 - 20:00

But I also talk about trying to frame the chaos so it doesn't feel as taxing, you know, like I think I think when there's times of uncertainty sometimes it's tempting to like try to map out here's exactly what's going to happen. Like here's exactly the products we're going to build. Here's exactly how my career is going to go, you know, like and that's a way to exert control. And I just I I think that locks you out of trying all the new stuff. And so what we have to do is like frame the chaos so it feels safe and it feels plausible to engage with it.

中文：但我也谈到过尝试去框定混乱，让它感觉不那么累人，你知道，当我认为有不确定的时期时，有时人们会很容易去想要把事情全部规划出来。比如，确切地知道接下来会发生什么，比如确切地知道我们会开发哪些产品，确切地知道我的职业生涯会如何发展，你知道，这是一种控制的方式。而我只是觉得那样会让你无法尝试所有新事物。所以我们必须做的是去框定混乱，让它感觉安全，并且让人觉得可以合理地去面对它。

But that's where like a bunch of the magic and productivity is going to be. So just like talking about it, making it safe, acknowledging that there's also emotions around all of this and it's not easy, but it is a way to just participate and understand and work with the future. I think that's something we talk about a lot. I think there's an organizational leadership question that I think Ami you do really well which is like you can have the chaos but you also need very clear leadership and DRI-ship within some areas.

中文：但这正是很多魔力和生产力所在的地方。所以，仅仅是谈论它，让环境安全，承认围绕这一切也存在情绪，这并不容易，但确实是一种参与、理解并与未来合作的方式。我认为这是我们经常讨论的事情。我觉得这涉及一个组织领导力的问题，我觉得 Ami 你做得非常好，就是你可以有混乱，但同时在某些领域也需要非常明确的领导力和直接责任人（DRI）。

So like you can have a bunch of people sort of exploring something very frontier but having a clear like this is the person who's ultimately going to make the call whether this is you know the thing to pursue or not. In labs we call them leads or like bet we have call them bets within labs. So the bet lead is a really important role and they are the DRI for saying like I think we should double down on this or like actually we should wind this down. this team needs more people, this team needs less.

中文：所以你可以有一群人去探索一些非常前沿的东西，但要有一个明确的——就是这个人最终会决定这是否是应该追求的方向。在实验室里，我们称他们为负责人，或者我们称之为实验中的赌注负责人。所以赌注负责人是一个非常重要的角色，他们是明确责任人，会说‘我认为我们应该加大投入这个’或者‘实际上我们应该停止这个。这个团队需要更多人，这个团队需要更少人。’

And like that role is even more important because we're moving so quickly, because things are shifting really rapidly to still have that like we're all lost together, but somebody's got the like, you know, the pen on like what what's the next most important thing we can do to derisk, to understand, to learn, to move things forward, too.

中文：而且这个角色变得更加重要，因为我们行动得非常快，因为事情正在迅速变化，仍然需要有一种我们都一起迷失的感觉，但有人手里拿着笔，决定接下来最重要的事情是什么，以降低风险、理解、学习并推动事情向前发展。

We've talked a lot uh already so far about uh the psychology and the skills of being a product leader. Um, one other place that's changing a lot is what you actually build and how you think about like the features and the functionality in particular because we're moving from a world where you'd expect only humans to use your software to a world where uh humans and agents are using software. Sometimes it's delegated, sometimes it's fully collaborative. And I know Mike, you've sort of been at the center of figuring out what is what does agent-native type software look like?

中文：到目前为止，我们已经讨论了很多关于成为产品领导者的心理和技能的问题。嗯，另一个正在发生很大变化的地方是你实际上构建的内容以及你如何思考功能和功能性，特别是因为我们正在从一个你只期望人类使用你软件的世界，转向一个人类和代理都在使用软件的世界。有时是委派，有时是完全协作。我知道 Mike，你在弄清楚什么是原生代理类型的软件方面一直处于中心位置，对吗？

And I think you have a lot of thoughts on where that is going. So, can you talk to us about the uh h how you think about what to build, what goes into a product versus an agent and uh and what's what's the overlap?

中文：我觉得你对事情的发展方向有很多想法。那么，你能和我们谈谈你是如何考虑要构建什么、什么属于产品、什么属于代理，以及它们之间的重叠吗？

I love this question and like I maybe there's like a timeline to look at where V1 or like er 1 was great, we've got this AI thing, maybe it belongs in like a sidebar or like a little mini window and you can ask questions and it's kind of disconnected and if you know maybe it helps you with some customer support questions. Um and then sort of greater integrations where maybe there are whole features that are AI powered and then this movement towards being more agent-native and I think every like literally wrote the book on it which is and the way I for that the whole year where I was working a lot in this idea of like agent-native architectures I would basically feed their like write up on this and then create a skill out of it because I was really good encapsulation of it was the idea of like everything a human could do an agent should be able to do as well and very few products actually get this right.

中文：我很喜欢这个问题，可能可以有一个时间线来看，V1 或者说 1 代很棒，我们有了这个 AI 的东西，也许它属于一个侧边栏或者一个小的迷你窗口，你可以在那里提问，它有点独立，如果你知道，也许它能帮你处理一些客户支持问题。然后就是更大的整合，也许会有整套由 AI 驱动的功能，然后这个趋势是向更适合智能体本身的方向发展。我认为每个人——字面意思是几乎每个人——都为此写了书，而我在这一年大量研究智能体本地架构的过程中，我基本上会把他们关于这一点的总结拿来，然后把它转化成一个技能，因为我非常擅长概括，其核心思想是：凡是人类能做的事情，智能体也应该能做，而实际上很少有产品真正做到这一点。

I think a lot of our products like don't quite get this right yet. But when you do that, all of a sudden sort of emergent behavior gets unlocked where you know the agent can sort of piece together things that weren't pieced together before or can proactively offer um different ways of doing things. I think we're still on the journey of making that good, but I think the next stage that I've been thinking about a lot is when the interfaces actually become something that is malleable by the agent too. And we've talked about mal malleable software for years.

中文：我认为我们的很多产品似乎还没有完全做到这一点。但是当你做到这一点时，突然之间就会出现某种自发行为，代理可以把以前没有拼接在一起的东西拼凑起来，或者可以主动提供不同的做事方式。我认为我们在让这一点变得良好方面仍在探索中，但我一直在思考的下一个阶段是，当界面实际上也能被代理修改时。我们多年来一直在讨论可修改的软件。

I feel like it's actually now like really manifesting and becoming real. And um maybe back to the sort of role of product and connecting to this question, one of the things that we have, we have like a pretty complex thing that we're trying to ship right now. And it's got at least four independent orc streams. And the way we've operationalized it is we've had Claude both sort of keep an eye on how everything is going, but also create the UI by which first the TPM and then the entire team understands what is happening in that project.

中文：我感觉现在它真的开始显化并变得真实了。嗯，也许回到产品角色并与这个问题关联，我们有一样东西，目前正试图交付的东西相当复杂。它至少包含四个独立的 ORC 流程。我们运作它的方式是让 Claude 既关注一切的进展情况，又创建用户界面，使得首先 TPM，然后整个团队都能理解这个项目中正在发生的事情。

And what's really cool about that is that if you didn't like that particular display, you're not bound to like however it was determined to be built either by some internal acceleration team or some uh sort of third party. You can change it um and you can change it along with Claude and it's just been a very cool thing to see internally. Like one of the biggest shifts in how we've worked in the last year I think at Anthropic is so much of the software we interact with is like built maintained and iterated on by Claude.

中文：真正酷的是，如果你不喜欢那个特定的显示，你也不必一定喜欢它是如何被内部加速团队或某种第三方构建出来的。你可以改变它，而且你可以和 Claude 一起改变它，这在内部看到真的非常酷。我认为这是 Annthropic 过去一年我们工作方式中最大的一个变化之一——我们互动的大部分软件都是由 Claude 构建、维护和迭代的。

of course reacting to all the things that are happening in the organization but very much like changing all the time and so that leads to all sorts of other interesting questions like who can update the data right is it just the humans clicking through is it also Claude in the background how do you have like provenence of data it opens up some like interesting questions there as well but I feel like that is the piece like the both the trend and the thing I'm most inspired by right now is how do we make that the way almost all of our software operates and of course you still want building blocks and predictability and design systems and you don't want you want to frame the cats you want to like make it not absolutely insane, but for the given task, for that given project, for even that given user potentially, what is the way in which we pull in the right um ways and make that really feel both personal and like extremely useful because of that

中文：当然，这是对组织中发生的所有事情做出反应，但就像一直在不断变化一样，这会引发各种其他有趣的问题，比如谁可以更新数据？是不是只有人类在点击操作？是否也有 Claude 在后台操作？如何证明数据的来源？这也会引发一些有趣的问题。但我觉得这正是关键——既是趋势，也是我现在最受启发的事情——那就是我们如何让几乎所有的软件都以这种方式运行。当然，你仍然需要构建模块、可预测性和设计系统，你不希望失控，你希望设置框架，使其不完全疯狂，但对于特定的任务、特定的项目，甚至可能是特定的用户，我们如何引入正确的方法，并让其既感觉个性化，又因此变得极其有用？

and how does someone think about maybe you know you're not in Anthropic and you're you're have you have a SAS app that's scaled and you're thinking about okay, do I put an agent in it? Do I make it open and agent-native so that Claude can be in it? like how do how do you think about those choices and what a company should care about versus uh leave to leave to a model company like Anthropic to to plug in? Yeah, I think a lot of it is really building the right primitives into the product that almost like an infrastructural layer and you can kind of tell like I I always poke at the whenever I'm using new products um I'll ask it to do something that you know a human could do but you know might be required somebody to think through or architect the thing where everything goes through some shared plumbing that like both agents and like whatever sort of rest API you've built can go through as well and you can tell when they've been thought through that way and it's I have a lot of empathy because if you've been building an application for 20 years just bolting that on is difficult.

中文：有人会怎么想，也许你知道自己不在 Anthropic 中，但你有一个可扩展的 SAS 应用程序，你会想，好吧，我要在其中放置一个代理吗？ 我是否将其开放并本地化，以便克劳德可以参与其中？ 比如你如何看待这些选择以及公司应该关心什么，而不是留给像 Anthropic 这样的模范公司来插入？ 是的，我认为很多事情实际上是在产品中构建了正确的原语，几乎就像一个基础设施层，你可以像我一样说，每当我使用新产品时，我都会要求它做一些你知道人类可以做的事情，但你知道可能需要有人思考或构建一切都通过一些共享管道的东西，就像两个代理一样，就像你构建的任何类型的休息 API 也可以通过，你可以告诉他们什么时候被考虑 通过这种方式，我非常同情，因为如果你已经构建一个应用程序 20 年了，只是将其固定下来是很困难的。

So I think is a journey that a lot of companies are going on. But once you get it right, I think that question becomes you can just evolve it over time, right? You can start with, okay, at first I'm just going to have maybe more of the side paint thing. I don't I'm not ready to blow up my whole UI. I'm not ready to create fully generative UIs, but maybe you start experimenting with like, all right, there's also maybe a personal landing page that can be more malleable and is using the same primitives.

中文：所以我认为这是很多公司都在经历的一个旅程。但是一旦你做对了，我认为那个问题就变成了你可以随着时间逐步发展它，对吧？你可以从一开始的小步骤开始，比如一开始我可能只是更多地做一些附属的界面。我还没有准备好彻底重构我的整个用户界面，我还没有准备好创建完全生成式的用户界面，但也许你可以开始尝试，比如，好吧，也许有一个个人主页可以更加灵活，并且使用相同的原始元素。

You're not inventing a whole new sort of infrastructure underneath. So I think that you can evolve your product along the way, but you have like you can tell when things feel super bolted on and like like that's you know feeling like it's not a native part of the product. So Ami I'm curious we're hearing we can go all the way to you know agent-native malleable software but uh Anthropic you have to serve this whole spectrum of people. there's this uh challenge of pushing the frontier and also you know some people just want to use Claude to like chat or you've you you have big enterprise contracts where you can't just like rip out their whole interface and then say hey it's malleable like you know on on in one day or maybe you can't I don't know but I assume you can't so how do you balance uh in terms of thinking about product pushing the frontier and creating a a consistent experience for users that they can understand and bringing along the people who are maybe not going to try all the new things on day one.

中文：您并不是在底层发明一种全新的基础设施。 所以我认为你可以一路发展你的产品，但是你可以分辨出什么时候事情感觉超级固定，就像你知道的那样，感觉它不是产品的原生部分。 所以阿米，我很好奇我们听说我们可以一路走到你知道的代理本机可延展软件，但是呃人类你必须为所有人群提供服务。 推动前沿是一个挑战，而且你知道有些人只是想用 Claude 来聊天，或者你有大型企业合同，你不能只是撕掉他们的整个界面，然后说嘿，它是可塑的，就像你在一天内就知道的那样，或者也许你不能我不知道，但我认为你不能，所以你如何平衡呃在思考产品推动前沿和为用户创造一种他们可以理解的一致体验方面 并带上那些可能不会在第一天就尝试所有新事物的人。

I think it's a really hard problem. Um I mean our approach is to just try to meet everyone where they are. I think we're just so early in like understanding what works. It's not like stuff is stable and we can just build the right answer. It's like we're all trying to explore together. And part of the everything changing every couple months is like the models change, but also like the way people use products and the models changes and we kind of constantly have to update for that. And so a thing that I think about is like when we're just exploring a a product like like Mike's talking about, it's okay to just try stuff like we just have to try a bunch of things because we haven't actually explored the frontier.

中文：我认为这是一个非常难的问题。嗯，我的意思是，我们的方法就是尽量在每个人现有的水平上与他们接触。我觉得我们在理解什么有效方面还处于非常早期的阶段。并不是说事情已经稳定，我们就可以直接构建正确的答案。我们都在一起探索。而每隔几个月一切都会变化的一部分原因是模型在变化，同时人们使用产品的方式也在变化，模型也会随之变化，我们必须不断进行更新。因此，我想到的一件事是，当我们只是像迈克说的那样在探索产品时，尝试一些东西是可以的，我们只需要尝试很多事情，因为我们实际上还没有真正探索过前沿。

And then when we figure out what works, then we have to like make it make sense for all the people who want something that feels more stable and complete. Um, I think this is a really tough trade-off because, you know, like raised in like the the product like world that I was, I was all about like simplicity and reliability and total predictability because I think that helps people build like a muscle memory and an intuition. But I also think the reality is like we just don't know yet what a lot of things should look like.

中文：然后当我们弄清楚什么有效时，我们就必须让它对所有想要更稳定、更完整体验的人都能说得通。嗯，我认为这是一个非常艰难的权衡，因为，你知道的，我成长在我所处的产品世界里，我完全追求简单、可靠和完全可预测的东西，因为我认为那有助于人们建立肌肉记忆和直觉。但我也认为，现实是我们现在还不知道很多事情应该是什么样子。

And so I actually encourage the team to just like take a lot of shots on goal. You know, it's okay to have things that feel somewhat overlapping or duplicative as long as when we figure them out. When we hit product market fit, we go back and we reinccorporate into something that works for everyone. Because I feel like the fail state is you decide from the beginning like based on a theory of exactly what needs to happen and you like over constrain a product. And I would much rather have like five overlapping products that all work in different ways than like one overly constrained one that we never even gave a chance to actually like meet the market.

中文：所以我实际上鼓励团队多尝试一些目标。你知道，有些东西感觉上稍微重叠或重复是没关系的，只要当我们弄明白之后，当我们达到了产品与市场的契合时，我们会回过头来重新整合，变成适合每个人的东西。因为我觉得失败的状态是，你一开始就根据某个理论决定究竟需要发生什么，然后过度约束产品。而我更愿意有五个不同方式运行的重叠产品，也不愿意只有一个过度约束的产品，我们甚至从未给它机会去真正适应市场。

And how do you and I definitely see this we we do this at every but like I see this all around the industry just doing lots of parallel experiments and seeing which ones one one works and then starting to consolidate as you start to get uh get signal. How do you do that in a way that doesn't feel confusing or incoherent or you know if I'm working on the third team doing this thing like it's can be maybe demotivating like how do you do that? Well

中文：那么你和我怎样才能清楚地看到这一点呢？我们每次都会这样做，但我看到整个行业都是这样做的——进行大量平行实验，看看哪一个有效，然后在开始获得信号时开始整合。你如何以一种不会让人感觉困惑或不连贯的方式去做这件事呢？或者说，如果我在第三个团队上做同样的事情，可能会有些让人失去动力，你怎么做到这一点呢？

I think there's a couple of things. one like I think when we were just having this conversation this morning internally where you know there was like two potential like product directions and one has like a team with very high conviction going after and the other one doesn't really and like it feels very manufactured to be like we should explore this other idea cuz we think it's good but nobody's like really calling for it then that's like that kind of B team feeling that I think I've never been like successful tasking a team to go like take a product area that they're not excited about like the product is going to suck at the end of that process right um so like you want you want the like excitement but if there are two three different teams that have exciting directions and yeah like let that let that explore.

中文：我认为有几件事。首先，我认为就在今天早上我们内部进行这次对话的时候，有两个潜在的产品方向，其中一个团队非常有信心地去推进，而另一个则没有真正的信心，而且感觉很生硬，好像为了说“我们应该探索这个其他想法，因为我们认为它不错”，但实际上没有人真的在呼唤它。那种就是 B 队的感觉，我觉得我从未成功让一个团队去做他们并不兴奋的产品领域，最终产品在这个过程中肯定会很糟糕。所以，你想要的是那种激情，但如果有两三个不同的团队有令人兴奋的方向，就让他们去探索吧。

I think I I think we've made a lot of progress on even in the last six months is like having the underlying infrastructure to support all of that. So, we inventoried this. It feels like 6 months ago. It's probably only three, but like there was a point where like chat and Cowork had different memory systems and different MCP and different um ways of storing files. And it was like, okay, like for anybody to experiment on top of the surface, they're going to have a really hard time because if they built a third thing that then doesn't share memory with any of those, for example, it's going to feel disconnected and like almost disadvantaged from the beginning.

中文：我认为，我认为即使在过去六个月里，我们也取得了很大进展，比如拥有支持所有这些的基础设施。所以，我们对其进行了盘点。感觉像是六个月前的事，实际上可能只有三个月，但曾经有一段时间，聊天和协作工具有不同的内存系统、不同的 MCP，以及不同的文件存储方式。那时候的情况是，对于任何想在这个基础上进行实验的人来说，他们会非常困难，因为如果他们构建了第三个东西，而它又不与任何这些系统共享内存，例如，它会显得脱节，几乎从一开始就处于不利地位。

20:00 - 28:49

So, a lot of the work, you know, we have like a foundations team that has like been just thinking about like you should be able to get your memory wherever you are within our products. And like it sounds like a simple thing but then it's very clearly you pull back the thing like oh it's complicated for these eight reasons but it's worth solving that and solving it in a different team than like your labsy innovation or like kind of frontier product teams because then like that those experiments can feel complimentary even if they are overlapping too.

中文：所以，很多工作，你知道，我们有一个基础团队，他们一直在思考你应该能够在我们的产品中的任何地方获取你的记忆。听起来像是很简单的事情，但当你真正去深入分析的时候，会发现因为这八个原因它很复杂，但解决它是值得的，而且最好由一个不同的团队来解决，而不是你的实验室创新团队或者前沿产品团队，因为那样的话，即使这些实验有重叠，它们也会感觉是互补的。

I also think like this sounds so simple but I also think it's just really important to talk about it and just name like hey if there's three different bets sometimes it can feel demoralizing or like one of you is not set up for success. That's okay. That's the world we're living in. And so what we're asking you to do is come along this journey with us. We don't know the answer. We don't think anyone knows the answer. We're all going to discover it. And we're all fundamentally on the same team.

中文：我也这样认为，这听起来很简单，但我也觉得讨论它并明确提出这些问题真的很重要，比如说，如果有三种不同的赌注，有时可能会让人感到泄气，或者觉得你们中的某个人没有被安排好以取得成功。但这没关系，这就是我们所生活的世界。因此，我们希望你能与我们一起踏上这段旅程。我们不知道答案，我们认为没有人知道答案。我们都将去发现它，而且我们本质上都是同一队的成员。

And so we will just like learn from whatever works. And just like saying stuff like that out loud, I think is really important because everybody is like trying to figure everything out in the dark.

中文：所以我们就会从任何有效的方法中学习。就像那样大声说出这些话，我认为真的很重要，因为每个人都像是在黑暗中试图弄清楚一切。

What do you look for to know that something's starting to work?

中文：你会寻找什么来判断某件事情开始起作用？

I mean, I think a bunch of that is kind of the normal product market fits. Like do people use it? Do they like it? Do they come back? Do they talk about it? Do they get value? Like again going back to like the goal of product has remained the same. It's like to solve problems. Thinking about does this actually solve a problem in a way that people can use and use easily and feel good about using it comes back to the basics for that.

中文：我的意思是，我认为其中很大一部分其实是产品与市场匹配的正常表现。比如人们会使用它吗？他们喜欢吗？会回头再用吗？会谈论它吗？能从中获得价值吗？再回到产品的目标上——它一直没变，那就是解决问题。思考这个东西是否真的以一种人们可以使用、易于使用并且使用后感觉良好的方式解决了问题，这回到了这个最基本的原则。

One of the interesting things that feels challenging to me about that is sometimes a thing looks like it doesn't work and the new model comes out and then it really starts working and you don't want to like throw it away too early but you also don't want to be too far ahead. So how do you do that? Like one of the things we do in labs sometimes is just park a project. Like when we built we built the first like computer use product inside Anthropic in 2024. Um and it was so bad because the models just weren't there yet.

中文：对我来说，有一件有趣但有挑战性的事情是，有时候一件事看起来不起作用，然后新模型出来后，它真的开始起作用了，你又不想太早放弃它，但你也不想走得太远。那么你该怎么办呢？我们在实验室里有时会做的一件事就是把一个项目先搁置一边。比如当我们在 2024 年在 Anthropic 内部构建第一个面向计算机使用的产品时，嗯，它非常糟糕，因为模型还没有达到那个水平。

And you would be you know our first thesis was well it's not going to be good at a bunch of automation but it might be good about education. Um, so you'd be like, "All right, uh, how do I, you know, change this, you know, thing in some complex software? Like, how do I, you know, do this really complex thing in Photoshop?" And it would get there, but it would get there in like the very like early agent Claude way, which was like this, did that work? Nope, that didn't work. I got to close this.

中文：你知道，我们的第一个假设是，嗯，它可能在一堆自动化方面做得不好，但可能在教育方面做得不错。所以你会像，“好吧，呃，我怎么做，嗯，你知道，在一些复杂的软件里改变这个东西？比如，我怎么在 Photoshop 里做这个非常复杂的操作？” 它会做到这一点，但会以非常早期的 Claude 代理方式来做到，也就是那种，“这个有效吗？不，这不行。我得关掉这个。”

It was like 20 minutes later like, I did it. You're like, I learned nothing. I learn, you know, so like it was neither good for automation nor education. But we parked it and then we would basically just try it with every new model. And we actually, the way we would try it is we actually just had it like running in an eval harness. And the way we actually learned that 37 was like a like a leap in computer use was like just seeing it suddenly took over and then we actually looked at the transcript.

中文：大约过了 20 分钟，我就完成了。你会觉得，我啥都没学到。我学到，你知道，所以这对自动化也好，对教育也好都不行。但我们还是先放一边，然后基本上会在每个新模型上尝试它。实际上，我们尝试的方法是让它运行在一个评估环境里。实际上我们意识到 37 是计算机使用上的一次飞跃，是因为看到它突然接管，然后我们实际上看了下对话记录。

We're like wow it's succeeding more often than it's not like this is a real moment. So it is really valuable like we see it as a win in labs if what you did was all if all your project did is show that the models aren't ready for it yet but you're able to now like externalize that as an eval or sort of like create some uh connectivity to the research team like that's great because it means that 2 3 4 5 6 months from now we'll be able to revisit and hopefully we've learned something along the way um as well but I think you need you need to build early so that you can even have that intuition.

中文：我们会觉得，哇，它成功的频率比失败的高，这真的是一个真实的时刻。所以这非常有价值，我们在实验室里会把它看作一种胜利，如果你所做的一切只是展示模型还没有准备好，但你现在能够把它外化为评估，或者某种形式地与研究团队建立联系，那就很棒，因为这意味着两三四五六个月后，我们将能够重新审视，并希望在这个过程中学到一些东西。但我认为你需要早期构建，这样你才能拥有这种直觉。

I definitely agree. I've been calling this like it's it's sort there's a sort of you can get capability blind if you try something and then you don't ever try it again or you don't make an eval and you're like oh the models are just never going to do this and then it just turns out a model comes out like in 3 months and it just completely chang it it improves in ways you never would have thought it would. I'm I'm actually curious if you're here how many of you have used Fable?

中文：我完全同意。我一直在说这种情况，就像是一种能力盲区，如果你尝试了一件事情，然后再也不去尝试，或者你没有做评估，你会觉得模型永远也做不到这个，然后结果模型在三个月内出现了，完全改变了情况，它的改进超出了你的想象。我其实很好奇，如果你在这里，你们有多少人使用过 Fable？

Raise your hand. Oh, a lot of people are using Okay, this is great. This is a good What about Astra? Fewer. Interesting. Okay, so this is great. you guys are you guys are on the you guys are on the edge. This is this is very helpful because one of the things I find a lot is I talk to someone and they're like, "Oh, it doesn't do this." And I'm like, "Have you used the latest model?" And they're like, "No, I used like Sonnet 4.5 or what?" Like whatever. And uh that that really changes things.

中文：举起你的手。哦，很多人都在使用，好，这太棒了。这很好。Astra 呢？少一些。有趣。好，这太棒了，你们，你们处于……你们处于边缘。这非常有帮助，因为我发现的一个问题是，我和某人交谈时，他们会说：“哦，它不做这个。”而我会说：“你用过最新的型号吗？”他们会说：“没有，我用的是 Sonnet 4.5 还是怎样？”之类的东西。呃，那真的会改变很多事情。

I think that's also part of why it's so important to be willing to throw away everything, you know.

中文：我认为这也是为什么愿意放弃一切如此重要的一部分，你知道的。

Yeah.

中文：是的。

Even though it's hard because then otherwise you just like think that the last thing that happened is going to be true forever. One one big question that I I see you guys working on from afar and I see this happening at OpenAI 2 and and we run into it a little bit is when you're doing all these parallel experiments and one starts to really work then you have to like push it back into your actual product and there are several different ways to do it. It's like okay you can make a tab but then you have a bunch of different tabs and there's all all the things like only work in like in slightly different ways and that's kind of ugly.

中文：即使很难，因为否则你就会认为最后发生的事情会永远是真的。我看到你们在远处工作时处理的一个大问题，我也看到这在 OpenAI 2 发生过，我们也遇到过一些情况，就是当你进行所有这些平行实验，其中一个开始真正起作用时，你必须把它推回到实际产品中，而有几种不同的方式可以做到这一点。比如，你可以做一个标签页，但那时你会有一堆不同的标签页，而且所有的东西都会以稍微不同的方式工作，这样有点难看。

Or you can have it just be a separate app and you never merge them. There's all these different things that I don't think anyone has really come to this is the answer, this is how you do it. But it seems like a critical problem is how to take those parallel experiments and turn it into a coherent product. How have you what have you learned and how do you think about it?

中文：或者你可以让它只是一个独立的应用程序，而永远不合并它们。有这么多不同的事情，我觉得没有人真正得出答案，也没有人说这是你该怎么做的。但看起来一个关键问题是如何将那些平行实验变成一个连贯的产品。你们学到了什么，你们是如何思考的？

I don't know what you're talking about. [laughter] Um, you're right. I don't think we've fully figured it out. But I think some of it comes back to what Mike was talking about of making sure that we're building primitives so that our products feel like the way they should feel, you know, when you're using them. Like what does a user expect? The user expects to walk up to something and like hopefully not have to think about it too much. Like and right now it's easy to just transfer a bunch of cognitive load to the user and be like here's some tools like why don't you choose?

中文：我不知道你在说什么。[笑]嗯，你说得对。我觉得我们还没有完全弄清楚。不过我觉得有些问题还是回到迈克所说的，要确保我们在构建原始组件，让我们的产品在使用时感觉自然。你知道的，用户会期望什么？用户希望走近某样东西时，尽量不需要想太多。现在很容易把大量的认知负担转嫁给用户，比如给他们一些工具，然后说‘你自己选吧’。

And so one of the things we that that Mike's talking about is like how do we make sure that we build primitives so the right system knows you. So a UI that feels like really accessible all the time. And I think all of that is a bit iterative as we see how people react.

中文：所以我们中的一件事，Mike 说的，是我们如何确保构建原语，以便正确的系统了解你。一个感觉始终非常可访问的用户界面。我认为所有这些都有点迭代，因为我们会观察人们的反应。

I think overall like if I had to bet like there's some lessons you'll learn and some that are are real. Like the thing that we always saw at Instagram it's like there's a very strong power law in tab usage. It makes sense. every single product right it's like main feed was like 80% of the use right and you can make explore better and maybe you would go from 10 to 15% but it was like main feed that is where you land that is your big thing so I think that is will always be the journey that we're all on which is like what is the main what is the main tab like what is that experience how do you still make that great and then luckily it can be an entry point to a lot of other downstream interesting experiences but yeah I think half of the job is saying no to another thing in the sidebar or another tab or another thing and figuring out Can this be rolled in once we've proven it out but not killing it so early.

中文：我总体上认为，如果我非要打赌的话，会有一些你会学到的教训，也有一些是真实的。就像我们在 Instagram 上常看到的情况一样，标签使用呈现出非常明显的幂律关系。这是有道理的。每一个产品都是这样的：主动态占用了大约 80% 的使用量，你可以优化探索页，也许能让使用量从 10% 提升到 15%，但主要还是主动态，这是用户登陆的地方，是核心所在。所以我觉得这将永远是我们所有人都会经历的过程——即关注主标签什么、体验是什么、如何保持它的优秀。同时幸运的是，它也可以成为进入许多其他有趣下游体验的入口。但我认为工作的一半是对侧边栏的其他选项、其他标签或其他功能说“不”，然后弄清楚，一旦我们验证了某项功能，是否可以将其整合进来，而不是过早地放弃它。

So this is the entire I think art of product development I think as things are moving this quickly.

中文：所以我认为这就是整个产品开发的艺术，我认为随着事情发展得如此之快。

All right, we've got time for one last question which I'd love to hear from both of you which is if if we are on this stage here next year and Lenny invites us back. I don't know if he'll invite me back. I've been cursing too much but he'll invite you two back. What what do you expect will be different and and how will being a PM have changed? I hope it just like that that people feel like they can just do much more like they can just go and build in whatever way they want.

中文：好吧，我们还有时间回答最后一个问题，我很想听你们两位的看法：如果明年我们还能站在这个舞台上，而 Lenny 邀请我们回来。我不知道他是否会再邀请我，我说了太多脏话，但他会再邀请你们两个回来。你们期待有什么不同吗？作为产品经理会有什么变化？我希望就是，人们会觉得他们可以做更多事情，他们可以按照自己想要的方式去构建。

They can get answers whenever they they want. They can start businesses and like and we just see a lot more like small teams and solo empowerment and we we just we start to get the uplift of like what that means for everyone else. Like I think it I think it's always like builders magnify impact for a bunch more people who will never like use the tools directly but who can benefit from people who do build things. And so I just I hope that's just way easier.

中文：他们可以随时获得答案。他们可以创业，我们只看到更多像小团队和个人赋能的情况，我们开始看到这对其他人意味着什么。我认为，一直以来，建设者都会为更多的人放大影响力，这些人可能永远不会直接使用这些工具，但可以从那些真正去创造东西的人那里受益。所以我只是希望这会变得更加容易。

Yeah. I think the biggest one for me is you know right now like I often talk about like the gap between what the models are capable of and like what most folks are using them for. Not through any fault of their own. It's on us. Like we got to build the products to make that possible. And like that was a hard thing last thing 24. was even harder last year. It's getting even harder now. And so like the biggest thing I want to do is close I think it's very democratizing if you can close that gap because it means it's not just your most like Claude-pilled software engineer that has you know like this fully working multi-ogenic setup.

中文：是的。我觉得对我来说最大的问题是，你知道，现在我经常谈到模型的能力和大多数人使用它们的方式之间的差距。这并不是他们的错，而是我们的责任。我们必须开发产品来让这一切成为可能。去年最后的事情已经很难了，今年甚至更难。所以我想做的最大事情是缩小这个差距。我认为如果能缩小这个差距，会非常民主化，因为这意味着不只是你那些最懂 Claude 的软件工程师才能拥有像这样的完全运行的多源系统。

It's also the person that is doing like a bunch of research in parallel. It's also the person that's trying to manage their business but they feel like they've unlocked it and we've brought them along the way in terms of how do you like understand the moving parts, check in at the right places, do long horizon work but not in a way that feels disempowering. That's the art. Like if we succeed a year from now, that'll be closer.

中文：这也是一个同时进行大量研究的人。这也是一个试图管理他们的业务的人，但他们感觉好像自己已经掌握了诀窍，而我们在过程中引导他们如何理解各种动态部分、在适当的地方进行检查、进行长期工作，但方式不会让人感觉失去掌控。这就是艺术。如果一年后我们成功了，那就会更接近这个目标。

Amazing. Thank you so much and Mike to [applause] see you.

中文：太棒了。非常感谢你，Mike，[掌声] 再见。