一个技工、一场罢工，和一场把共和党拖进防守的红州选战：内布拉斯加的 Dan Osborn 谈两党制、关税与伊朗战争｜The Reason Interview (2026)

这是 Reason 的一期访谈，但主持台换人了：常设主持 Nick Gillespie 不在，由 Zach Weissmueller 代班。他采访的对象是 Dan Osborn——内布拉斯加州 2026 年参议员选举的独立候选人，一个自称「既不是民主党也不是共和党」的前工业机械师。这场对话的形式很值得注意：它不是一次立场宣示，而是主持人对一个「反建制」标签的逐题盘问——从边境墙、第二修正案，到 702 条监控、伊朗战争、关税和数据中心，再到他愿不愿意和共和党内的自由意志派合作。如果你想知道一个能在一个深红州把选情拖成「摇摆」的独立候选人，实际政策主张是什么、哪些地方他确实和民主党分了手、哪些地方他又守住了建制外的姿态，这期值得完整听。

速览

他 2024 年就差点赢过：以独立身份挑战共和党现任参议员 Deb Fischer，拿到 46.5% 的选票，输 6.7 个百分点。
2026 年民主党把位置让给了他：民主党提名人 Cindy Burbank 退选并背书 Osborn，共和党阵营则把他描述成「伪装的民主党人」。
他愿意谈的交易：大麻工业化、拆分肉类加工垄断、702 条、Flock 摄像头、年龄上限、禁止前议员当说客。
他坚守的边界：他不是社会主义者——他把 DSA 的议程称为「太极端」，用橄榄球场的比喻说自己落在 40 码线，而两党都在端区。
他反对整体关税，但不反对定向关税：水管工行业里一台国产热水器因为关税贵了 600 美元，而汽车业的定向关税保住了美国的整车厂。

一、他为什么不进任何一个党

Weissmueller 的第一个问题就是「为什么要以独立身份参选」。Osborn 的回答从他背后的标牌讲起：在内布拉斯加，党派登记叫「无党派」，因为他能登记投票那天起，他就是无党派或独立选民。「我从来不相信，为了成为某个党的一员，我就必须接受一套价值、同时否定另一边。」他直说：「我有点彻底否定两党制这个概念。」

他的历史依据是乔治·华盛顿——他称华盛顿是「第一个独立人士」——在告别演说里警告过党争会把国家带向何处。「我认为我们已经到那儿了。我们卡在一个两党的 doom loop 里：两边都不愿意对方赢，也不再为人民工作。这就是我想改变的，我想改变这个游戏。」

二、「伪装的民主党」这个指控，他怎么答

共和党对手的说法是：这个「独立」是假的，他其实就是民主党人。2026 年 9 月，《UnHerd》一篇文章把 Osborn 和另外几位候选人称作「波将金民主党人」（Potemkin Democrats）——「披着 MAGA 外衣、关起门来其实是常规自由派」。

Osborn 的回应分两层。第一层是出身：「我是被内布拉斯加中部的铁路工人招来的，具体是在北普拉特——那里有全世界最大的编组场。他们想让我 2024 年去挑战 Deb Fischer，因为她收铁路公司的钱、替他们办事。」他强调自己不是政治操盘手：「我不是 operative，我是个机械师。我也当过水兵，在內布拉斯加陆军国民警卫队待过。这就是我。」

第二层是他和民主党的实际分歧：他说「拜登和哈里斯在边境问题上失败了」，还说自己是「第二修正案的坚定支持者」。但他真正想谈的是钱：「现在的核心是政治里的钱——我们卷进了又一场中东战争，而国防承包商和 AIPAC 这类人，正是给我对手捐款的人。他当然会对另一场战争盖章放行。」

三、边境墙、移民与「31 英尺的梯子」

Politico 曾报道过一段 7 月的录音，其中 Osborn 似乎把边境墙称作「种族主义的象征」、且「什么用都没有」。Weissmueller 直接问他是否坚持这句话。

他的回答绕开了「种族主义」这个词，落在效果上：「这是从这样一个事实出发的——加拿大那边没有边境墙。你可以竖墙，但更多是象征性的，因为你竖 30 英尺，他们就会卖 31 英尺的梯子。」他说墙的一边写着「关闭」，另一边写着「正在招工」，真正的问题是要追究那些剥削劳工的公司——比如肉类加工厂——「付几乎为零的工资，把钱漏斗一样送进竞选，好让自己继续这么干」。

被问到理想中的移民政策，他给的是一个过程而不是一套数字：让企业、小企业主、美国工人、工会、法官、律师和维权者坐到同一个房间里谈，找到一种「既服务美国企业、又不压低美国工人、同时允许移民发生」的改革。理由是婴儿潮一代退休后，牧场和建筑工地有大量空缺。

四、他和 DSA 的距离：橄榄球场的 40 码线

Politico 还报道说，当年招募 Osborn 的人，和招募缅因州候选人 Graham Platner 的是同一位前民主社会主义者组织者。Weissmueller 于是问：你同情 Mamdani、AOC 那一派推动的民主社会主义议程吗？

Osborn 的回答很干脆：「不，我觉得那太极端了。」他解释自己进政治的唯二理由是保护工人权利和把钱从政治里赶出去。然后他给了那个贯穿整期的比喻：「我喜欢用橄榄球打比方。两党都在端区里打球，而我认为大多数人的政治落点在 40 码线附近。这些年来我们有个钟摆，来回摆——民主党在台上时『我的医保还是很烂』，共和党在台上时『油价太高了』。它得停在中间的某个地方，而 DSA 不在中间。」

五、他愿意和共和党合作的地方

被问到愿不愿意和共和党内的自由意志派结盟，Osborn 给出了几个具体的合作点：

大麻（hemp）的合法化与产业化：他说对内布拉斯加可能是数十亿美元——前提是「我们第一个把这种植物工业化」。他强调这种作物耐旱、抗虫、能从土里吸收重金属、可以轮作，能让农民赚钱，而且不需要政府补贴。
拆分肉类加工垄断：他提到特朗普曾指示司法部调查肉类加工垄断，说他很乐意「把这些家伙拆开」。他自认是「自由贸易资本主义者」，但认为今天的市场不是自由市场，而是被少数玩家控制的：「我们要把它们拆开，重建一个有利于竞争的经济环境——这反过来会抬高工人和中产。1900 年代我们做过，老罗斯福拆掉了标准石油，我认为我们现在又到了那个时候，得再做一次。」
主持人补了众议员 Thomas Massie 的 PRIME Act（允许小型牛肉加工商和大玩家竞争）作为同类思路。

六、监控国家：702 条与摄像头

Osborn 的政策平台里写着「终结监控国家」，具体动作是反对续期 FISA 第 702 条——这条法律允许美国国安局从对外监控「跳到」对内的数据。Weissmueller 指出，肯塔基州参议员 Rand Paul 和俄勒冈州参议员 Ron Wyden 多年来一直在推这件事，Massie 也在试图阻止联邦资金支持人脸识别和 Flock 摄像头。

Osborn 的答复是「百分之千」愿意和自由意志派议员结盟：「在我看来，隐私权是顶点的。我不喜欢我们的政府——尤其是用不正当手段——去监视自己的人民。那从根本上是反美的。」

七、枪支：一个被他自己否认的「政纲」

Weissmueller 提到有报道说他提议对 AR-15 拥有者做五年一次的心理健康检查，并追问这是否意味着他要建一个联邦登记系统。

Osborn 的回应是直接否认：「那是假的。那是假的。」他解释了传闻的来源：他在一场 VFW 活动上和一个带着手枪的枪主聊天，聊的是心理健康背景审查，两人只是在头脑风暴「各自听过的各种想法」；后来他在另一个活动上讲起那次聊天，在场的记者把它完全脱离了语境，做成了他的政策。「这完全是假的，也绝对是为了赢这场选举而撒的谎。」

他也承认自己支持过禁止 bump stock（撞火枪托）——这是 Susan Collins 等人推动的议题——但强调这「绝对不在我优先事项清单的最上面」，他更想做的是「修车权」（Right to Repair）、消费者保护，以及拆分信用卡双寡头 Mastercard 和 Visa。

八、伊朗战争：一个海军老兵为什么反对

Osborn 是海军退伍军人，服役期间在波斯湾待了六个月，1995 和 1997 年两次四次穿过霍尔木兹海峡。他自称「不是反战」：「我理解有些时候需要战争。但这场战争没有人向我解释过，而且已经有内布拉斯加人死在里面了——我记得上一次统计，有 850 多名军人受伤。这些是真实的数字。」

他把战争和本州农业直接挂在一起：「我们马上要收割了。我们是玉米第三、大豆第五、牛肉第一。柴油价格正在逼近每加仑 7 美元，这对农业是真正的问题——一辆 F-150 加满油大概要 140 美元。这不可持续。」于是他的「内布拉斯加优先」外交政策，落到具体处就是「把我们从伊朗拉出来」。

被问到会不会支持战争权力决议或削减未授权军事行动的资金，他说会：「国会需要像国父设想的那样，作为一个平等的分支行动。这是一个『没有脊梁』的完美案例。」他说没人认为伊朗该有核武器，但「我们在那个地区保持一个航母战斗群的威慑一直有效」，所以他不明白现在的轰炸是为了什么，「唯一说得通的解释是军工复合体需要赚钱」。

九、国债、五角大楼与被排除的医保

主持人给出一个数字：美国由公众持有的国债约为 32.4 万亿美元，而 Osborn 的承诺部分靠削减浪费与欺诈、部分靠不给任何没付钱的法案投票来实现。但真要减债，就得实质性削减开支。他愿意砍什么？

Osborn 指向「膨胀的开支」：膨胀的政府合同、无竞标合同、以及军事领域的修车权——「国防承包商把我们锁进服务协议，把设备做成专有格式，于是我们的士兵和军械库没法自己修自己的东西，只能等承包商来修。」他还提到五角大楼从未通过联邦审计、有数十亿美元「下落不明」的资产。但他补了一句边界：他不主张现在砍国防预算，因为美国正在打仗。

接下来是最尖锐的一问：他的政纲承诺绝不动社保和医保的福利、不提高退休年龄、不允许私有化，可这些占预算三分之一，那债务怎么减？

他的答案转向税收漏洞：「大概有接近 80 家跨国公司在美国却不交税。这不是加税，这是公平分担。」他点名亚马逊这类公司把利润留在海外、不汇回美国，还说「贝佐斯在国税局里有他自己的税法」。「如果让企业交他们那 5% 的公司税，那就是上万亿美元。」在他看来，这关乎问责和公平分担，而不是税率高低。

十、关税：整体关税伤自己，定向关税保就业

Osborn 的关税立场是「不支持整体关税，但支持定向关税」，理由来自他所在的行业：

反对整体关税：他是做管道和蒸汽管件的，一台国产热水器在关税战之后贵了 600 美元。这笔钱不会由承包商吃下——「他吃不下，吃了生意就没了」——最后全转给房主。整体关税也重创了大田作物农民，「我们大豆农有 52% 的市场被切断」，中国转向从取消关税的阿根廷买，而美国又拿 200 亿美元去救助阿根廷农民。「这在我脑子里算不通。」
支持定向关税：福特 F-150、GMC、Ram 这些全尺寸皮卡之所以还在美国造，原因就是定向关税。他说整车厂留在这里就是美国的工作岗位。
他还补了供应链的荒诞之处：热水器的很多原材料从加拿大来，运到墨西哥组装，再卖回美国，于是被反复征税。

十一、数据中心：不给一分钱补贴

内布拉斯加正在经历数据中心的建设潮，Osborn 是这股民粹反弹的一部分。主持人说「不补贴」他完全同意，但追问：如果一家数据中心没有任何特殊优惠，凭什么不能像其他行业一样运营？

Osborn 的回答是「要看这个数据中心用来干什么」：不能有一分钱税金补贴，也不能让它推高社区的电费和水费，这就是他说的「护栏」。他举了自家附近的例子：一个 Facebook 数据中心，建的时候拿了约 200 万美元税金补贴，「而它存在的唯一理由就是存放死人的数据——我都不明白它为什么要存在」。他主张的是对数据的用途、用水量、用电量做问责与透明，以及要求「社区受益协议」。

十二、年龄上限与说客

Osborn 还提了一个针对「老人政治」的具体提案：设年龄上限。他说：「有年龄下限，那按理就该有年龄上限。我不知道那个魔法数字是多少，但比如你如果在下次选举前满 72 岁，就不能再选。」他承认这只是一个抛出来的数字，但认为说得通。

配套的是禁止前国会议员当说客：「我们要把这些说客的牙拔掉。比如制药业有 1,500 名说客——每个国会议员对应三个说客。这就是为什么药价高得离谱。」他还提到制药公司投放的那些广告能拿到税收优惠，说这正是 1,500 名说客能换来的东西。

十三、他对特朗普选民的喊话

最后一个问题：特朗普在节目播出这一周到内布拉斯加为他的对手助选，而 2024 年特朗普在这个州赢了大约 20 个百分点——你总得赢下一部分特朗普选民。

Osborn 的答案是把「反建制」这个词还给对方：「特朗普刚出现时，那些不希望他掌权的人，和现在不希望我掌权、不希望我在参议院有一席之地的人，是同一批人。因为我代表的是反建制的想法。」但他立刻划清界限：「不是把一切推倒重来——当然不是 DSA 那种极端。」他说要做的是「打破这个两党的 doom loop」，用林肯的话说，是「民有、民治、民享的政府」，而现在「是一个为企业和用金钱控制选举的 1% 服务的政府。而且，我不拿企业的钱。」

给读者的判断依据

这期节目最大的信息量不在「他支持什么」，而在他给每条主张都配了一个来自他本人经历的锚点：热水器贵了 600 美元、F-150 加满油要 140 美元、大豆市场被切断 52%、隔壁的数据中心拿了 200 万税金。想判断这位独立候选人是不是「伪装的民主党」，可以听这几段：他对 DSA 的评价、他对第二修正案的立场、他对整体关税的反对、以及他愿意在 702 条上和 Rand Paul 结盟——这些位置既不属于民主党的主流，也不属于共和党的主流。

人物、机构与术语

Dan Osborn 竞选头像 — *Dan Osborn，内布拉斯加州 2026 年参议员选举独立候选人；海军退伍军人、前 BCTGM Local 50G 工会主席。图为竞选公开头像。（图片来源：Wikimedia Commons）*

Dan Osborn（丹·奥斯本）：内布拉斯加州 2026 年参议员选举独立候选人；海军退伍军人、内布拉斯加陆军国民警卫队成员、前工业机械师；曾在奥马哈的 Kellogg's 工厂工作，并作为面包、糖果、烟草工人工会与谷物加工工人工会（BCTGM）Local 50G 主席，领导了 2021 年那场约 1,400 人的罢工。2024 年以独立身份挑战参议员 Deb Fischer，获 46.5% 选票。
Pete Ricketts（皮特·里基茨）：共和党现任参议员，前内布拉斯加州州长，2024 年通过特别选举补上 Ben Sasse 留下的席位，2026 年寻求完整任期。
Zach Weissmueller：本期代班主持人。
FISA 第 702 条：授权对境外目标进行情报收集、并可能「附带」获取美国人通信的法律条款，其续期长期是监控改革争论的焦点。
PRIME Act：由众议员 Thomas Massie 推动的法案，旨在放开小规模肉类加工，以削弱大型加工商的议价优势。
Right to Repair（修车权）：要求制造商允许用户或第三方维修自己设备（含军用装备）的立法方向。
War Powers Resolution（战争权力决议）：国会用来限制总统未经授权发动战争的法案形式。

完整逐字稿

本稿由本期官方音频的机器转写整理而成，按讲话人分段署名，时间轴每 10 分钟标注一次；中英对照，每段先列英文原文，紧跟中文译文。转写对专有名词做了订正，其余内容未作删改。

00:00 - 10:00

Zach Weissmueller：

Dan Osborn is running to become Nebraska's next U.S. Senator, and he's doing it from outside the two-party system. And surprisingly, he's got a chance. As an independent, challenging incumbent Republican senator and former governor Pete Ricketts, RealClear Polling rates Osborn's race as a toss-up. Osborn, a former industrial mechanic and Navy veteran, has cast himself as a populist outsider taking down the billionaire Epstein class. Republicans say he's just a left-wing Democrat in disguise. In today's episode, we'll ask him about all of that and explore his anti-surveillance, anti-war, anti-debt, and pro-marijuana policy ideas. And now, here's my interview with Dan Osborn. Dan Osborn, thank you for coming on the show. Thank you. Thanks for having me. You've got a legitimate shot at being Nebraska's next senator running as an independent, which is what's interesting to us. And looking at your platform, it does appear that several of your positions don't fit cleanly in a partisan or ideological box. So tell me first, why run as an independent?
中文：丹·奥斯本正在竞选内布拉斯加州的下一任美国参议员，他是在两党体制之外竞选的。令人惊讶的是，他有机会。作为一位独立、富有挑战性的现任共和党参议员和前州长皮特·里基茨 (Pete Ricketts)，RealClear 民意调查将奥斯本的竞选评为难以预测的结果。奥斯本曾是一名工业机械师和海军退伍军人，他把自己塑造成一个推翻亿万富翁爱泼斯坦阶层的民粹主义局外人。共和党人说他只是一个伪装的左翼民主党人。在今天的节目中，我们将询问他所有这些问题，并探讨他的反监视、反战争、反债务和支持大麻的政策理念。现在，这是我对丹·奥斯本的采访。丹·奥斯本，感谢您来到节目中。谢谢。谢谢你有我。您有合法机会成为内布拉斯加州的下一任参议员，以独立人士身份参选，这对我们来说很有趣。看看你的平台，你的一些立场似乎并不完全符合党派或意识形态的框框。那么首先告诉我，为什么要以独立人士身份参选？

Dan Osborn：

Well, as the sign says behind me, we call it nonpartisan in Nebraska, your party registration. And I've been a registered nonpartisan or independent since the time I could register to vote. I've never believed in the fact that I have to accept a set of values and principles and reject the other side to be a part of a party. I kind of reject the notion of the two-party system altogether. I think George Washington, the very first independent, he warned us in his farewell address of the two parties and where it could lead. And I think we're there. I think we're stuck in a two-party doom loop. Neither side wants either side to have a win, and they're not working for the people. That's what I want to change. I want to change the game.
中文：嗯，正如我身后标牌上所说的，在内布拉斯加州，我们将其称为无党派，也就是你的党派登记。而自从我可以登记投票以来，我一直是注册的无党派或独立人士。我从未相信我必须接受一套价值观和原则，并排斥另一方才能成为某个党的成员。我有点完全否定两党制的观念。我认为乔治·华盛顿，第一个独立人士，他在告别演说中警告过我们两党制及其可能带来的后果。我认为我们已经到了那个地步。我认为我们陷入了两党注定失败的循环。双方都不希望对方获胜，他们也没有为人民工作。这就是我想改变的。我想改变这个游戏规则。

Zach Weissmueller：

And your opponents in the race, a Republican, has said that this whole independent thing is fake, that you're just an undercover Democrat. And there was a recent article in UnHerd that described you and several others as Potemkin Democrats. They say MAGA-coded candidates who actually turn out to be conventional liberals behind closed doors. So how do you respond to this idea that this is just a strategy to run Democrats with different branding in states where they're unpopular? Where would you say you differ most from your standard Democrat?
中文：而你在竞选中的对手，一位共和党人，说这个所谓的独立身份完全是假的，说你只是一个卧底的民主党人。最近在《UnHerd》上有一篇文章把你和其他几个人称为"波泰金民主党"。他们说那些表面上带有 MAGA 色彩的候选人，实际上在私下里是传统自由派。那么你如何回应这种观点，即这只是一个在民主党不受欢迎的州以不同品牌方式参选的策略？你会说自己与标准的民主党人最大的不同之处在哪里？

Dan Osborn：

Yeah, well, I would have to start by saying that I was recruited by railroaders in central Nebraska and North Platte. So that's why I got into politics altogether. I was not, I am not an operative. I'm a mechanic. I was also a sailor and the Nebraska Army National Guard. That's who I am. And that's who I've always been. And, you know, I'm doing this again to give a voice to the people, but you know, what makes me not a Democrat? Well, I would say, I'd say Joe Biden and Harris failed on the border. I'm a staunch Second Amendment supporter. You know, I suppose the list goes on and on. But again, I think really it's about the money in politics and getting the money out of politics. Because right now we're stuck in another war in the Middle East. And the defense contractors and AIPAC, people like that, are the ones funding my opponent's campaign. And of course, he's going to rubber stamp another war.
中文：是的，好吧，我得先说，我是被内布拉斯加中部和诺斯普莱特的铁路工人招募的。所以这就是我完全进入政治的原因。我不是，也从来不是一个特工。我是一个机械师。我也是一名水手，同时还在内布拉斯加州陆军国民警卫队服役。这就是我，这也是我一直以来的身份。你知道，我之所以再次参选，是为了给人民发声。但是，你知道是什么让我不是民主党人吗？我会说，我会说乔·拜登和哈里斯在边境问题上失败了。我是坚定的第二修正案支持者。你知道，我想这个清单可以一直列下去。但我认为，真正重要的是政治中的金钱问题，以及如何把金钱从政治中移除。因为现在我们又陷入了中东的另一场战争。国防承包商和像 AIPAC 这样的人，是资助我的对手竞选的人。当然，他会批准另一场战争。

Zach Weissmueller：

You mentioned immigration as one issue where you're differentiated from the Democratic Party. There was a Politico report on a leaked tape from July where you seem to call, according to the reporting, the border wall a symbol of racism that does nothing. Do you stand by those comments?
中文：你提到移民是你与你的民主党区别的一个问题。据《政客》报道，有一段七月泄露的录音显示，据报道你似乎称边境墙是一个毫无用处的种族主义象征。你坚持这些评论吗？

Dan Osborn：

Well, it comes from a place of, you know, the fact that there's no border wall with Canada. And you can put up a wall. And like I said, it's more symbolic than anything because you can put a 30-foot wall up and they're just going to sell 31-foot ladders, right? One side of the wall says closed. The other side says now hiring. You know, it's about holding the companies like the meat packers that –
中文：嗯，这源于一个事实，你知道的，就是加拿大没有边境墙。你可以建一堵墙。就像我说的，这更多是象征性的，因为你可以建一堵 30 英尺高的墙，但他们只会卖 31 英尺的梯子，对吗？墙的一侧写着‘关闭’，另一侧写着‘现招聘’。你知道，这关乎像肉类加工厂那样的公司——

Zach Weissmueller：

So what is your preferred immigration policy if you had to boil it down?
中文：如果必须简化的话，你偏好的移民政策是什么？

Dan Osborn：

Yeah, I think it's going to be getting corporations, small business owners, American workers, labor unions, getting judges and lawyers and advocates into the same room and hashing it out and finding a way, an immigration reform that works for American businesses, doesn't undercut American workers. But still allows immigration to occur because we know we have with the baby boomers retiring, we got a lot of open jobs, especially out on cattle ranches and construction work. We know we need workers to keep this country running forward. So it's got to find a way to work for everyone.
中文：是的，我认为这将涉及让公司、小企业主、美国工人、工会、法官、律师和倡导者坐到同一个房间里，讨论并找出办法，制定一个对美国企业有效、不损害美国工人的移民改革。但仍然允许移民流入，因为我们知道随着婴儿潮一代退休，很多职位空缺，特别是在牧场和建筑工地上。我们知道我们需要工人来保持这个国家的运转。因此，它必须找到一种对每个人都有效的方式。

Zach Weissmueller：

And then one more background question before we get into some of your policy positions that I think might be interesting for our libertarian audience. You mentioned the railroad workers who recruited you to run in 2024. There's also been reporting again from Politico that the same former Democratic Socialist of America organizer who recruited Graham Platner to run in Maine was involved recruiting you back in 2024. Are you sympathetic to this is a rising strain in the Democratic Party? Are you sympathetic to the democratic socialist agenda promoted by the likes of Mamdani and AOC?
中文：然后在我们进入一些我认为对我们的自由主义观众可能有趣的政策立场之前，我还有一个背景问题想问。你提到了那些招募你在 2024 年参选的铁路工人。Politico 也有报道说，同一个曾经招募格雷厄姆·普拉特纳在缅因州参选的前美国民主社会主义者组织者，也在 2024 年招募了你。你是否对这是民主党中日益增长的一股力量感到同情？你是否认同像马姆达尼和 AOC 这样的人所推动的民主社会主义议程？

Dan Osborn：

No, I think it's extreme. Again, you know, getting into this to protect workers' rights is why I got into this and fighting the money in politics. That's the sole reasons I got into this indus I like football analogies. The parties operate from the end zones when I think most people, politics, land somewhere in the 40-yard line, right? And we've had this pendulum over the years. It swings back and forth, you know, because the Democrats are in charge. My health care still sucks. Republicans are in charge. Gas prices are too much. You know, and so it's just this this back and forth pendulum. It's got to stop somewhere in the middle. And the DSA is not in the middle.
中文：不，我认为这是极端的。再说一次，你知道，我之所以进入这个领域是为了保护工人的权利，以及与政治中的金钱作斗争。这是我进入这个行业的唯一原因。我喜欢用足球来做比喻。政党从端区操作，而我认为大多数人的政治立场在 40 码线附近，对吧？多年来我们一直有这种钟摆效应。它来回摆动，你知道的，因为民主党掌权，我的医疗保健依然糟糕；共和党掌权，油价又太高。你知道的，所以这只是这种来回摆动的钟摆。它必须停在中间某个地方。而社会主义民主联盟（DSA）并不在中间。

Zach Weissmueller：

You've pledged not to caucus with either party. But if elected, you know, this could be a very close margin. Whoever gets control of the Senate. And that means you could be a decisive swing vote. So based on your policy positions, some of which you've hinted at here, I can imagine you voting with Democrats on various labor and antitrust issues. Are there any particular Republican senators on the other side of the aisle that you could imagine working with on specific issues? Yes.
中文：你已经承诺不会与任何一方结党。但如果当选，你知道，这可能会是一个非常接近的差距。谁掌控参议院。而这意味着你可能成为决定性的摇摆票。因此，基于你的政策立场，其中一些你在这里已经暗示过，我可以想象你在各种劳动和反垄断问题上会投票支持民主党。在另一边，你能想象在特定问题上与哪些特定共和党参议员合作吗？是的。

Dan Osborn：

Yeah, yeah. The legalization and the industrialization of hemp, you know, and for Nebraska could be billions of dollars as long as we're first in, you know, industrializing the plant. You know, and this is a plant that's drought resistant, pest resistant. It pulls heavy metals out of the ground. It could be rotated in for our crops for our farmers. And, you know, that's going to help make our farmers money. It doesn't need to be subsidized by the government. You know, I definitely work with Republicans on that. You know, I know Donald Trump ordered the Department of Justice to investigate the meatpacker monopoly. I would love to break those guys up to help create, because right now, I'm a free trade capitalist guy. Thank you. And we've done it before in the 1900s. Teddy Roosevelt broke up Standard Oil. And I think we're there now, and we've got to do it again.
中文：是的，是的。大麻的合法化和工业化，你知道，对于内布拉斯加来说，如果我们能首先工业化这种植物，可能带来数十亿美元的收益。你知道，这是一种耐旱、抗虫的植物。它可以从土壤中吸出重金属。它可以轮作在我们的作物中，为我们的农民带来收益。你知道，这可以帮助我们的农民赚钱，不需要政府补贴。你知道，我肯定会在这方面与共和党人合作。你知道，我知道唐纳德·特朗普下令司法部调查肉类加工企业的垄断。我很想拆分这些公司以帮助创建公平市场，因为现在，我是一个自由贸易资本主义者。谢谢。我们在 20 世纪曾经做过这件事。西奥多·罗斯福拆分了标准石油。我认为我们现在也到了必须再次这么做的时候了。

Zach Weissmueller：

So, I mean, someone not in the Senate but in the House who I know has championed that cause, maybe from a different angle, is Thomas Massie with his PRIME Act, which... It's essentially allowing, my understanding is to allow small beef processors to compete with the big players. That's less of a antitrust argument and more of a, you know, competitive, you know, trying to level the competitive playing field, I guess. Yeah, you also pledged. Yeah, you also pledged to end the surveillance state in your policy platform, specifically by opposing the renewal of Section 702 of FISA. And that's what allows the NSA to kind of leapfrog from foreign surveillance to domestic. That's something Senator Rand Paul of Kentucky's championed with Ron Wyden of Oregon for years. So there's a bipartisan coalition. He's also tried to prohibit corporations from selling personal data to intelligence agencies. Massey, again, has tried to stop facial recognition and flock cameras from being funded by the federal government. Would you commit to allying with libertarian-leaning Congress members on those sorts of issues?
中文：所以，我的意思是，据我所知，在众议院而不是参议院中有人支持这一事业，也许是从不同的角度，托马斯·马西（Thomas Massie）提出了他的《首要法案》（PRIME Act），该法案……本质上是允许，我的理解是允许小型牛肉加工商与大型企业竞争。我想，这不是反垄断论点，而是竞争性的，试图创造公平的竞争环境。是啊，你也答应了。是的，您还承诺在政策平台上结束监视状态，特别是反对更新 FISA 第 702 条。这就是国家安全局能够从国外监视跨越到国内监视的原因。这是肯塔基州参议员兰德·保罗和俄勒冈州参议员罗恩·怀登多年来所倡导的。所以有一个两党联盟。他还试图禁止公司向情报机构出售个人数据。梅西再次试图阻止联邦政府资助面部识别和集群摄像机。您会承诺在此类问题上与倾向自由主义的国会议员结盟吗？

10:00 - 20:00

Dan Osborn：

Oh, absolutely, 1000%. Our right to privacy is apex in my mind. I don't like the idea of our government, especially using it for nefarious means to spy on its people.
中文：哦，绝对是，百分之千。我认为我们的隐私权是至高无上的。我不喜欢我们的政府，尤其是用它做邪恶手段来监视人民的想法。

Zach Weissmueller：

That's fundamentally un-American. You mentioned up top also you called yourself a staunch defender of the Second Amendment. What would you do as a senator to protect Americans' Second Amendment rights?
中文：那从根本上来说是不符合美国精神的。你一开始提到过，你称自己是《第二修正案》的坚定捍卫者。作为参议员，你会做什么来保护美国人的《第二修正案》权利？

Dan Osborn：

Well, I mean, we already have the right, right? So it's just going to be continuing to either block legislation or, you know, that restricts our Second Amendment rights. Yeah, it's just continuing to protect it.
中文：嗯，我的意思是，我们已经有这个权利了，对吧？所以这只是继续阻止立法，或者，你知道的，限制我们的第二修正案权利的法律。是的，只是继续保护它。

Zach Weissmueller：

You have proposed five-year mental health check-ins for owners of AR-15s, which implies you also want to create a federal registry to track that. Why is that necessary? That's false.
中文：你提出对 AR-15 持有者进行五年一次的心理健康检查，这意味着你也想要创建一个联邦登记系统来追踪这些信息。为什么这是必要的？这是错误的。

Dan Osborn：

That's false. That's false. Yeah. I was talking about that. It wasn't even the original conversation that they said. I was talking about that conversation at another event. And, you know, there was a reporter there. They took it completely out of context and they turned it into my policy. That is completely
中文：那是假的。那是假的。是的。我是在谈论那个。那甚至都不是他们说的最初的对话。我是在另一个活动上谈论那次对话的。你知道，当时有一个记者在那里。他们完全断章取义，把它变成了我的政策。那完全是

Zach Weissmueller：

false and definitely a lie to try to win this election. It seemed that you were agreeing with this proposal, but you're saying that's not an official position that you have.
中文：这是虚假的，绝对是为了赢得这次选举而撒的谎。看起来你是同意这个提议的，但你说那不是你正式的立场。

Dan Osborn：

No, no. The gun owner and I were talking about mental health background checks and we were brainstorming ideas that we had both heard from people and having that conversation. That was it. It was just a conversation. It definitely was not me talking about any kind of policy.
中文：不，不。枪支拥有者和我在讨论心理健康背景调查，我们在头脑风暴一些我们都从别人那里听到的想法，仅仅是在进行那个对话而已。就是这样。那只是一次对话。绝对不是我在谈论任何政策。

Zach Weissmueller：

You've also supported banning bump stocks, and that's an issue championed by Susan Collins, who's in another competitive race. Is that another example of a senator you might team up with?
中文：你也支持禁止撞击式枪托，这是苏珊·柯林斯支持的一个议题，她正在参加另一场竞争激烈的选举。这又是你可能会与之合作的参议员的一个例子吗？

Dan Osborn：

Yeah, I mean, it's certainly not tops on my list of what I'm thinking about. You know, again, I'm thinking about right to repair. I'm thinking about going in there and immediately start to figure out consumer protection issues, breaking up the credit card duopoly, MasterCard and Visa. Interview podcast.
中文：是的，我是说，这当然不是我最关心的事情。你知道的，我在考虑的是维修权。我在考虑的是进去并立即开始研究消费者保护问题，打破信用卡的双头垄断，即万事达卡和维萨卡。采访播客。

Zach Weissmueller：

Hopefully we save up enough money for Christmases and college. But right now, with the price of fuel and this war, that's what that's what's first on my mind is trying to bring costs down for families like mine. Speaking of the war, you're a Navy veteran. You've been a critic of the Iran war and call for a Nebraska first foreign policy. What is that?
中文：希望我们能存够钱过圣诞节和支付大学学费。但现在，由于油价和这场战争，我首先想到的是如何为像我这样的家庭降低成本。说到战争，你是一名海军退伍军人。你一直批评伊朗战争，并呼吁实行“内布拉斯加优先”的外交政策。那是什么？

Dan Osborn：

Yeah, that's pulling us out of Iran. Like, I'm not anti-war. I understand there's a time for it. This war has not been explained to me, and we've had Nebraskans die in this war. And I think last count, over 850-some service members have been wounded. Welcome to the show. Thank you for joining us.
中文：是的，那是在把我们从伊朗撤出来。我的意思是，我并不是反战的。我理解战争有其时机。这场战争对我来说没有得到解释，而且我们有内布拉斯加人在这场战争中牺牲。我记得上一次统计，有超过 850 名军人受伤。欢迎收看本节目。感谢你的加入。

Zach Weissmueller：

That's unsustainable. And so it is ending this war in Iran is by default Nebraska first. Trump started the war without any congressional authorization. This is kind of presidential war making pattern that's stretched back over many administrations now. So this is something the Senate could theoretically do something about. Once if you make it into the Senate, Would you vote for a war powers resolution or to cut funding for unauthorized military action?
中文：那是不可持续的。所以，结束伊朗的这场战争的默认方式是先关注内布拉斯加州。特朗普在没有任何国会授权的情况下发动了战争。这是一种总统发动战争的模式，已经延续了许多届政府。因此，这是参议院理论上可以采取措施的事情。如果你进入参议院，你会投票支持战争权力决议，还是切断对未经授权的军事行动的资金？

Dan Osborn：

Yeah, yeah, that's how we do it, right? Congress needs to act as a co-equal branch of government, just like the founding fathers intended it to be. And this is a perfect example of not having a spine. Seeing that the damage it's caused for, I mean, nobody thinks that Iran should have a nuclear weapon. And, you know, when I served six months in the Persian Gulf, I went through the Strait of Hormuz four times in both 95 and 1997, right? We keep an aircraft carrier battle group in the region for that very reason, right? Deterrence. And it's always worked. And then we bombed Iran to cripple their enrichment capabilities. So I don't understand. Nobody can explain it to me why we're there right now. The only thing that makes sense to me is the military industrial complex needed to make some money. And, you know, again, I'm not I'm not antiwar there. There's a time for it where we have to defend people in other nations. But right now, I think we're we're at war with Iran for another country.
中文：是的，是的，这就是我们的做法，对吗？国会需要作为一个与其他政府分支平等的机构行事，就像开国元勋们本来希望的那样。这就是没有骨气的一个完美例子。看到它造成的损害，我的意思是，没有人认为伊朗应该拥有核武器。你知道，当我在波斯湾服役六个月时，我在 1995 年和 1997 年分别四次穿越霍尔木兹海峡，对吧？我们在该地区保持一个航母打击群，就是为了这个原因，对吧？威慑。而且这一直都有效。然后我们轰炸了伊朗，摧毁他们的提炼能力。所以我不明白。没人能向我解释我们现在为什么在那里。唯一对我来说合理的解释就是军事工业复合体需要赚钱。你知道，再说一次，我并不是反战。在某些时候，我们必须保卫其他国家的人民。但目前，我认为我们与伊朗开战是为了另一个国家。

Zach Weissmueller：

And we got we got pull that back. Another area of interest, I think, for libertarians is that you have spoken about you've pledged to tackle the national debt and it's both sides. We're currently at $32.4 trillion debt held by the public. And your pledge is to do that in part by cutting waste and fraud and partly by not voting for any bill that's not paid for, which is good. But to actually reduce the debt at this point, that means we need to meaningfully cut spending as well. So what sort of spending would you want to see cut?
中文：我们得把它撤回。我认为，对自由主义者来说，另一个关注点是，你曾经谈到过你承诺要解决国家债务问题，而且这是双方的问题。目前公共持有的债务为 32.4 万亿美元。你的承诺部分是通过削减浪费和欺诈来实现，部分是不投票支持任何没有资金保障的法案，这很好。但要在此时实际减少债务，这意味着我们也需要切实削减开支。那么，你希望削减哪类开支呢？

Dan Osborn：

It's the inflated spending, right? It's the inflated government contracts, you know, the no-bid contracts, right to repair. I mentioned that. Military right to repair is huge. You know, these defense contractors lock us into service agreements. They make their equipment proprietary. So our soldiers and airmen and motor pools and air wings can't, or air hangers, they can't work on their own stuff. Interview podcast. That to me is irresponsible. I'm not suggesting that we have to cut defense spending or our budget currently because we are in a war and I understand the global, the world that we live in and our place in it, certainly. But it is about cutting waste, fraud and abuse and the Pentagon should not be excluded from that as well.
中文：是过度支出，对吧？是政府合同的膨胀，你知道的，无招标合同，对吧，以及维修权。我提到过这一点。军事维修权非常重要。你知道，这些国防承包商把我们锁定在服务协议中。他们让他们的设备成为专有设备。因此，我们的士兵、飞行员、汽车队和航空联队，或者说飞机机库，他们不能自己修理自己的设备。这是在播客采访中提到的。对我来说，这是不负责任的。我并不是建议我们必须削减国防开支或当前的预算，因为我们正在参战，我理解我们所处的全球环境以及我们的地位，当然。但问题在于削减浪费、欺诈和滥用，五角大楼也不应该被排除在外。

Zach Weissmueller：

We're agreed on the need to cut waste, fraud, and abuse, but that's only going to get you so far. I think that the DOGE experiment showed us that there's large budget items. And in your platform, you pledged to never cut Social Security or Medicare benefits or raise the retirement age or allow any sort of privatization. How are we supposed to reduce the debt without any reforms to entitlement programs that account for a third of the budget?
中文：我们同意需要减少浪费、欺诈和滥用，但那只能解决一部分问题。我认为 DOGE 实验向我们展示了预算中存在大额开支。在你的政策纲领中，你承诺绝不削减社会保障或医疗保险福利，也不提高退休年龄，也不允许任何形式的私有化。在不对占预算三分之一的福利项目进行任何改革的情况下，我们怎么可能减少债务呢？

Dan Osborn：

Yeah, well, there's, man, probably close to 80 multinational corporations that are here in the United States that don't pay taxes. You know, it's not about raising taxes. It's about paying a fair share. Companies like Amazon, they funnel their profits overseas. They park them there. They don't repatriate it back to the United States. So that's their loophole that they use. Jeff Bezos has his own tax code in the IRS. You know, it's this pay-to-play world that they live in. There's no accountability. I mean, the Epstein files proves that, right? That this class of people has no accountability to the American people, to the workers that they employ. But yeah, so it's about the tax code and changing that and closing loopholes. So, you know, if we get the corporations to pay their 5% corporate tax, we're talking upwards of a trillion dollars.
中文：是的，好吧，有，大概有接近 80 家跨国公司在美国不缴税。你知道，这不是关于提高税收的问题，而是关于支付公平份额。像亚马逊这样的公司，他们把利润转到海外，并把它们存放在那里。他们不将其汇回美国。这就是他们利用的漏洞。杰夫·贝索斯在国税局有自己的税法。你知道，他们生活在这样一个付费才能玩的世界里。没有问责，我是说，爱泼斯坦的文件就证明了，对吧？这类人对美国人民、对他们雇佣的工人没有任何问责。但对，所以这关乎税法，改变它并关闭漏洞。所以，你知道，如果我们让公司缴纳他们的 5%公司税，我们谈论的是超过一万亿美元的金额。

20:00 - 30:00

Zach Weissmueller：

You know, that we could use, but obviously we got to end that war in Iran. A billion dollars a day over there is not helping anything at all. So it is about accountability and paying a fair share. You oppose some tariffs, but not others. Walk me through that. Walk me through your tariff policy.
中文：你知道，我们可以用这些，但显然我们必须结束在伊朗的战争。那里每天花费十亿美元对任何事情都没有帮助。所以这关乎问责和支付公平份额。你反对一些关税，但不反对其他关税。向我解释一下。向我解释一下你的关税政策。

Dan Osborn：

Yeah, I think a blanket policy for anything doesn't work. Whether you're talking about minimum wage or whether you're talking about tariffs, you can't just blanket it. You know, for example, for the industry that I'm in, plumbing, steam fitting, domestic water heater is now $600 more than it was pre-tariff war. That's a big number. So the The contractor that I work for isn't going to eat that $600. He can't. He doesn't stay in business. So it gets passed on to the homeowner. And, you know, that's just one piece of a home. It's getting so expensive to maintain homes because of this. So blanket tariff policies we know doesn't work. It really hurt our row crop farmers. That's why they had to get bailed out again. You know, 52% of our market for our bean farmers got cut off. And Argentina or China went and bought from Argentina because they removed their tariffs. And then we bail out Argentina with $20 billion. They're farmers. This doesn't make any, this does not make any sense. It's not computing in my brain. But we do know targeted tariffs can work for industry. There's a reason why the trucks that you see on the road are still F-150s, GMCs and Rams. Rig
中文：是的，我认为针对任何事情的一揽子政策都是行不通的。无论你是在谈论最低工资还是关税，你都不能只是一概而论。你知道，例如，对于我所在的行业，管道、蒸汽配件、家用热水器现在比关税战前贵了 600 美元。这是一个很大的数字。所以我工作的承包商不会吃那 600 美元。他不能。他不再继续做生意。所以就转嫁到房主身上了。而且，你知道，那只是一个家的一部分。因此，维护房屋变得如此昂贵。因此，我们知道一揽子关税政策行不通。这确实伤害了我们行耕种植的农民。这就是为什么他们必须再次被保释。你知道，我们豆农 52% 的市场被切断了。阿根廷或中国从阿根廷购买产品，因为他们取消了关税。然后我们用 200 亿美元救助阿根廷。他们是农民。这没有任何意义，这没有任何意义。这不是我大脑中的计算。但我们确实知道有针对性的关税可以为工业界发挥作用。您在路上看到的卡车仍然是 F-150、GMC 和 Rams，这是有原因的。钻机

Zach Weissmueller：

And again, that power should be with Congress. If we're just saying targeted tariffs, aren't we giving sort of special carve outs to certain industries? And also, if you're running on cost of living, you're saying that tariffs undoubtedly make the price of goods that people are buying, including cars, go up. So how do you square that?
中文：再说一次，这种权力应该属于国会。如果我们只是说有针对性的关税，难道我们不是在某种程度上给某些行业特别的豁免吗？而且，如果你是以生活成本为竞选口号，你就会说关税无疑会让人们购买的商品价格，包括汽车，增加。那么你怎么解决这个矛盾呢？

Dan Osborn：

Yeah, well, it's squaring it with the manufacturers still being here in this country, right? That's why the targeted tariffs in the auto industry, there's a lot of those full-size trucks are still built here. So that's American jobs, right? The water heater, a lot of the raw materials from water here comes from Canada. I'm going to start with a couple of questions. Thank you. Interview podcast.
中文：是的，好吧，这仍然是让制造商留在这个国家的问题，对吧？这就是为什么针对汽车行业的关税，其中很多全尺寸卡车仍然在这里制造。所以那是美国的工作，对吧？水加热器，很多水加热器的原材料来自加拿大。我将从几个问题开始。谢谢。采访播客。

Zach Weissmueller：

So some of the infrastructure that's being built out now here is data centers. But you're part of the populist backlash against that. You say we shouldn't give them subsidies, which I absolutely agree with. But if they're built without any special carve outs, why shouldn't they be allowed to just operate like any other industry?
中文：所以现在在这里建设的一些基础设施是数据中心。但是你是对这种建设的民粹主义反弹的一部分。你说我们不应该给他们补贴，我完全同意。但如果它们是在没有任何特别豁免的情况下建造的，为什么不应该像其他行业一样允许它们运营呢？

Dan Osborn：

Yeah, I think, well, it's, again, it's what is the data center being used for, right? And so, again, no, not a cent of our tax dollars should be going to subsidize them. And certainly our power bills and water bills shouldn't go up a cent either if they come to our communities. So that's the guardrails that I talk about. It is about guardrailing the industry. And we have to protect what we know is good. And guardrail from the bad. For example, the data that the data center exists for, is it being used to cause cancer or is it being used to store data for flock cameras to surveil us? And I know there's a data center just a couple miles up the road from where I live. It's a Facebook data center and the whole reason of existence, and it got subsidized about $2 million from taxpayers' money to build it. All it does is house the data of deceased people. Why does that even exist? I don't know. So it is about accountability, transparency on what the data is being used for, how much water they're using, how much power they're using, and community benefit agreements for people who live in the communities that data centers are building in.
中文：是的，我想，嗯，这就是数据中心的用途，对吗？所以，再说一遍，不，我们的一分钱都不应该用来补贴他们。当然，如果它们来到我们的社区，我们的电费和水费也不应该上涨一分钱。这就是我所说的护栏。这是为了保护这个行业。我们必须保护我们所知道的美好事物。并设有护栏以防坏。例如，数据中心存在的数据是被用来致癌还是被用来存储数据以便监控我们？我知道距离我住处几英里的地方有一个数据中心。这是 Facebook 数据中心，也是其存在的全部理由，它的建设得到了纳税人大约 200 万美元的补贴。它所做的只是保存已故者的数据。为什么它会存在？我不知道。因此，这涉及到数据用途的问责制、透明度、使用了多少水、使用了多少电量，以及为居住在数据中心所在社区的人们提供的社区福利协议。

Zach Weissmueller：

As we mentioned, you're running as an independent. That is sort of an implicit critique of the two-party system. And you also, interestingly, have a critique and a policy proposal about the kind of gerontocracy that we're living in, the fact that we've got people serving in the Senate, serving in other parts of the government who are in severely declining physical and probably cognitive What do you propose we do about that?
中文：正如我们提到的，你是以独立身份参选。这在某种程度上是对两党制的隐性批评。有趣的是，你也对我们所生活的那种年长统治提出了批评和政策建议，即在参议院以及政府其他部门服职的人中，有些人的身体状况严重衰退，可能认知能力也在下降。你建议我们对此应该怎么办？

Dan Osborn：

Age limits. There's an age minimum. Stands to reason there should be an age maximum. I don't know what that magic number is, but if you turn, let's say, if you turn 72 before your next election, you don't get a run again. You know, that may, again, just throwing a number out there, but that makes sense to me. And then also, you know, no former member of Congress should be able to become a lobbyist too. We need to take the teeth out of these lobbyists. Like, for example, the pharmaceutical industry, 1,500 lobbyists. It's three lobbyists for every one member of Congress. And, you know, that's why drug prices are unaffordable. They actually get tax breaks for running all those commercials during our football games. You know, Skyrizi or taking a bath on the beach or parasailing or whatever they're doing. They get tax breaks to run those ads. And that's what 1,500 lobbyists will get you. So no former member of Congress because they got all the they got the Rolodex in their phones, right?
中文：年龄限制。有最低年龄限制。道理上也应该有最高年龄限制。我不知道那个神奇的数字是多少，但比如说，如果你在下一次选举前满 72 岁，你就不能再次参选。你知道，这也许只是随便提出的一个数字，但对我来说是合理的。而且，你知道，前国会议员也不应该成为说客。我们需要削弱这些说客的影响力。比如，制药行业有 1500 名说客。每三名说客对应一名国会议员。这也就是为什么药价负担不起的原因。他们实际上还因为在我们的橄榄球比赛期间播放那些广告而获得税收减免。比如 Skyrizi 广告，或者在海滩上洗澡，或者玩滑翔伞，或者其他他们做的事情。他们播放这些广告还可以获得税收减免。这就是 1500 名说客能为你带来的效果。所以不要让前国会议员成为说客，因为他们手机里有完整的联系人名录，对吧？

Zach Weissmueller：

Of all the power players, it could be effective lobbyists that we should ban that. Trump is visiting your state the week this episode comes out to campaign for your opponent. He won Nebraska by about 20 points in 2024. So you will need to win some Trump voters in order to win.
中文：在所有有权势的人中，我们可能应该禁止的正是那些有效的游说者。特朗普将在本集播出当周访问你所在的州，为你的对手进行竞选。在 2024 年，他在内布拉斯加州以大约 20 个百分点获胜。所以你需要争取一些特朗普的支持者才能获胜。

Dan Osborn：

What is your message to them? Yeah, I would say, you know, when Trump first came onto the scene, the people that didn't want him to be in power are the same people that don't want me to be in power or to have any kind of seat in the halls of the Senate. It's because I represent an anti-establishment ideas, right? You know, not tearing it all down, certainly like some of those extremes on the DSAs, but it is about breaking this two-party doom loop and operating in the words of Abraham Lincoln, In his address, it says, this is a government by and for the people, you know, those principles that we live off of. Instead, right now, it's a government for the corporations and the 1% that control our elections through the money. And, you know, again, I don't take the corporate money. So, yeah, I would say to those Trump voters, I'm very similar in that regard. Dan Osborn, thank you for talking with Reason. Thank you. Appreciate you.
中文：你想对他们说什么？是的，我会说，你知道，当特朗普刚登场时，那些不希望他掌权的人，和那些不希望我掌权或者在参议院有任何席位的人是同一批人。这是因为我代表了一种反建制的理念，对吧？你知道，不是要彻底摧毁一切，当然不像 DSA（民主社会主义者联盟）的一些极端派那样，但这确实是关于打破两党命运循环，并按照亚伯拉罕·林肯的话去运作，他在演讲中说，这是一个为人民和由人民组成的政府，你知道，这些原则是我们赖以生存的。而现在，相反，这却是为企业和通过金钱控制我们选举的 1%服务的政府。你知道，再次强调，我不接受企业资金。所以，是的，我会对那些特朗普选民说，我在这方面非常相似。丹·奥斯本，感谢你与 Reason 交流。谢谢。感激你。

速览

他 2024 年就差点赢过：以独立身份挑战共和党现任参议员 Deb Fischer，拿到 46.5% 的选票，输 6.7 个百分点。
2026 年民主党把位置让给了他：民主党提名人 Cindy Burbank 退选并背书 Osborn，共和党阵营则把他描述成「伪装的民主党人」。
他愿意谈的交易：大麻工业化、拆分肉类加工垄断、702 条、Flock 摄像头、年龄上限、禁止前议员当说客。
他坚守的边界：他不是社会主义者——他把 DSA 的议程称为「太极端」，用橄榄球场的比喻说自己落在 40 码线，而两党都在端区。
他反对整体关税，但不反对定向关税：水管工行业里一台国产热水器因为关税贵了 600 美元，而汽车业的定向关税保住了美国的整车厂。

一、他为什么不进任何一个党

二、「伪装的民主党」这个指控，他怎么答

三、边境墙、移民与「31 英尺的梯子」

Politico 曾报道过一段 7 月的录音，其中 Osborn 似乎把边境墙称作「种族主义的象征」、且「什么用都没有」。Weissmueller 直接问他是否坚持这句话。

四、他和 DSA 的距离：橄榄球场的 40 码线

五、他愿意和共和党合作的地方

被问到愿不愿意和共和党内的自由意志派结盟，Osborn 给出了几个具体的合作点：

大麻（hemp）的合法化与产业化：他说对内布拉斯加可能是数十亿美元——前提是「我们第一个把这种植物工业化」。他强调这种作物耐旱、抗虫、能从土里吸收重金属、可以轮作，能让农民赚钱，而且不需要政府补贴。
拆分肉类加工垄断：他提到特朗普曾指示司法部调查肉类加工垄断，说他很乐意「把这些家伙拆开」。他自认是「自由贸易资本主义者」，但认为今天的市场不是自由市场，而是被少数玩家控制的：「我们要把它们拆开，重建一个有利于竞争的经济环境——这反过来会抬高工人和中产。1900 年代我们做过，老罗斯福拆掉了标准石油，我认为我们现在又到了那个时候，得再做一次。」
主持人补了众议员 Thomas Massie 的 PRIME Act（允许小型牛肉加工商和大玩家竞争）作为同类思路。

六、监控国家：702 条与摄像头

七、枪支：一个被他自己否认的「政纲」

Weissmueller 提到有报道说他提议对 AR-15 拥有者做五年一次的心理健康检查，并追问这是否意味着他要建一个联邦登记系统。

八、伊朗战争：一个海军老兵为什么反对

九、国债、五角大楼与被排除的医保

接下来是最尖锐的一问：他的政纲承诺绝不动社保和医保的福利、不提高退休年龄、不允许私有化，可这些占预算三分之一，那债务怎么减？

十、关税：整体关税伤自己，定向关税保就业

Osborn 的关税立场是「不支持整体关税，但支持定向关税」，理由来自他所在的行业：

反对整体关税：他是做管道和蒸汽管件的，一台国产热水器在关税战之后贵了 600 美元。这笔钱不会由承包商吃下——「他吃不下，吃了生意就没了」——最后全转给房主。整体关税也重创了大田作物农民，「我们大豆农有 52% 的市场被切断」，中国转向从取消关税的阿根廷买，而美国又拿 200 亿美元去救助阿根廷农民。「这在我脑子里算不通。」
支持定向关税：福特 F-150、GMC、Ram 这些全尺寸皮卡之所以还在美国造，原因就是定向关税。他说整车厂留在这里就是美国的工作岗位。
他还补了供应链的荒诞之处：热水器的很多原材料从加拿大来，运到墨西哥组装，再卖回美国，于是被反复征税。

十一、数据中心：不给一分钱补贴

十二、年龄上限与说客

十三、他对特朗普选民的喊话

给读者的判断依据

人物、机构与术语

Dan Osborn（丹·奥斯本）：内布拉斯加州 2026 年参议员选举独立候选人；海军退伍军人、内布拉斯加陆军国民警卫队成员、前工业机械师；曾在奥马哈的 Kellogg's 工厂工作，并作为面包、糖果、烟草工人工会与谷物加工工人工会（BCTGM）Local 50G 主席，领导了 2021 年那场约 1,400 人的罢工。2024 年以独立身份挑战参议员 Deb Fischer，获 46.5% 选票。
Pete Ricketts（皮特·里基茨）：共和党现任参议员，前内布拉斯加州州长，2024 年通过特别选举补上 Ben Sasse 留下的席位，2026 年寻求完整任期。
Zach Weissmueller：本期代班主持人。
FISA 第 702 条：授权对境外目标进行情报收集、并可能「附带」获取美国人通信的法律条款，其续期长期是监控改革争论的焦点。
PRIME Act：由众议员 Thomas Massie 推动的法案，旨在放开小规模肉类加工，以削弱大型加工商的议价优势。
Right to Repair（修车权）：要求制造商允许用户或第三方维修自己设备（含军用装备）的立法方向。
War Powers Resolution（战争权力决议）：国会用来限制总统未经授权发动战争的法案形式。

完整逐字稿

00:00 - 10:00

Zach Weissmueller：

Dan Osborn is running to become Nebraska's next U.S. Senator, and he's doing it from outside the two-party system. And surprisingly, he's got a chance. As an independent, challenging incumbent Republican senator and former governor Pete Ricketts, RealClear Polling rates Osborn's race as a toss-up. Osborn, a former industrial mechanic and Navy veteran, has cast himself as a populist outsider taking down the billionaire Epstein class. Republicans say he's just a left-wing Democrat in disguise. In today's episode, we'll ask him about all of that and explore his anti-surveillance, anti-war, anti-debt, and pro-marijuana policy ideas. And now, here's my interview with Dan Osborn. Dan Osborn, thank you for coming on the show. Thank you. Thanks for having me. You've got a legitimate shot at being Nebraska's next senator running as an independent, which is what's interesting to us. And looking at your platform, it does appear that several of your positions don't fit cleanly in a partisan or ideological box. So tell me first, why run as an independent?
中文：丹·奥斯本正在竞选内布拉斯加州的下一任美国参议员，他是在两党体制之外竞选的。令人惊讶的是，他有机会。作为一位独立、富有挑战性的现任共和党参议员和前州长皮特·里基茨 (Pete Ricketts)，RealClear 民意调查将奥斯本的竞选评为难以预测的结果。奥斯本曾是一名工业机械师和海军退伍军人，他把自己塑造成一个推翻亿万富翁爱泼斯坦阶层的民粹主义局外人。共和党人说他只是一个伪装的左翼民主党人。在今天的节目中，我们将询问他所有这些问题，并探讨他的反监视、反战争、反债务和支持大麻的政策理念。现在，这是我对丹·奥斯本的采访。丹·奥斯本，感谢您来到节目中。谢谢。谢谢你有我。您有合法机会成为内布拉斯加州的下一任参议员，以独立人士身份参选，这对我们来说很有趣。看看你的平台，你的一些立场似乎并不完全符合党派或意识形态的框框。那么首先告诉我，为什么要以独立人士身份参选？

Dan Osborn：

Well, as the sign says behind me, we call it nonpartisan in Nebraska, your party registration. And I've been a registered nonpartisan or independent since the time I could register to vote. I've never believed in the fact that I have to accept a set of values and principles and reject the other side to be a part of a party. I kind of reject the notion of the two-party system altogether. I think George Washington, the very first independent, he warned us in his farewell address of the two parties and where it could lead. And I think we're there. I think we're stuck in a two-party doom loop. Neither side wants either side to have a win, and they're not working for the people. That's what I want to change. I want to change the game.
中文：嗯，正如我身后标牌上所说的，在内布拉斯加州，我们将其称为无党派，也就是你的党派登记。而自从我可以登记投票以来，我一直是注册的无党派或独立人士。我从未相信我必须接受一套价值观和原则，并排斥另一方才能成为某个党的成员。我有点完全否定两党制的观念。我认为乔治·华盛顿，第一个独立人士，他在告别演说中警告过我们两党制及其可能带来的后果。我认为我们已经到了那个地步。我认为我们陷入了两党注定失败的循环。双方都不希望对方获胜，他们也没有为人民工作。这就是我想改变的。我想改变这个游戏规则。

Zach Weissmueller：

And your opponents in the race, a Republican, has said that this whole independent thing is fake, that you're just an undercover Democrat. And there was a recent article in UnHerd that described you and several others as Potemkin Democrats. They say MAGA-coded candidates who actually turn out to be conventional liberals behind closed doors. So how do you respond to this idea that this is just a strategy to run Democrats with different branding in states where they're unpopular? Where would you say you differ most from your standard Democrat?
中文：而你在竞选中的对手，一位共和党人，说这个所谓的独立身份完全是假的，说你只是一个卧底的民主党人。最近在《UnHerd》上有一篇文章把你和其他几个人称为"波泰金民主党"。他们说那些表面上带有 MAGA 色彩的候选人，实际上在私下里是传统自由派。那么你如何回应这种观点，即这只是一个在民主党不受欢迎的州以不同品牌方式参选的策略？你会说自己与标准的民主党人最大的不同之处在哪里？

Dan Osborn：

Yeah, well, I would have to start by saying that I was recruited by railroaders in central Nebraska and North Platte. So that's why I got into politics altogether. I was not, I am not an operative. I'm a mechanic. I was also a sailor and the Nebraska Army National Guard. That's who I am. And that's who I've always been. And, you know, I'm doing this again to give a voice to the people, but you know, what makes me not a Democrat? Well, I would say, I'd say Joe Biden and Harris failed on the border. I'm a staunch Second Amendment supporter. You know, I suppose the list goes on and on. But again, I think really it's about the money in politics and getting the money out of politics. Because right now we're stuck in another war in the Middle East. And the defense contractors and AIPAC, people like that, are the ones funding my opponent's campaign. And of course, he's going to rubber stamp another war.
中文：是的，好吧，我得先说，我是被内布拉斯加中部和诺斯普莱特的铁路工人招募的。所以这就是我完全进入政治的原因。我不是，也从来不是一个特工。我是一个机械师。我也是一名水手，同时还在内布拉斯加州陆军国民警卫队服役。这就是我，这也是我一直以来的身份。你知道，我之所以再次参选，是为了给人民发声。但是，你知道是什么让我不是民主党人吗？我会说，我会说乔·拜登和哈里斯在边境问题上失败了。我是坚定的第二修正案支持者。你知道，我想这个清单可以一直列下去。但我认为，真正重要的是政治中的金钱问题，以及如何把金钱从政治中移除。因为现在我们又陷入了中东的另一场战争。国防承包商和像 AIPAC 这样的人，是资助我的对手竞选的人。当然，他会批准另一场战争。

Zach Weissmueller：

You mentioned immigration as one issue where you're differentiated from the Democratic Party. There was a Politico report on a leaked tape from July where you seem to call, according to the reporting, the border wall a symbol of racism that does nothing. Do you stand by those comments?
中文：你提到移民是你与你的民主党区别的一个问题。据《政客》报道，有一段七月泄露的录音显示，据报道你似乎称边境墙是一个毫无用处的种族主义象征。你坚持这些评论吗？

Dan Osborn：

Well, it comes from a place of, you know, the fact that there's no border wall with Canada. And you can put up a wall. And like I said, it's more symbolic than anything because you can put a 30-foot wall up and they're just going to sell 31-foot ladders, right? One side of the wall says closed. The other side says now hiring. You know, it's about holding the companies like the meat packers that –
中文：嗯，这源于一个事实，你知道的，就是加拿大没有边境墙。你可以建一堵墙。就像我说的，这更多是象征性的，因为你可以建一堵 30 英尺高的墙，但他们只会卖 31 英尺的梯子，对吗？墙的一侧写着‘关闭’，另一侧写着‘现招聘’。你知道，这关乎像肉类加工厂那样的公司——

Zach Weissmueller：

So what is your preferred immigration policy if you had to boil it down?
中文：如果必须简化的话，你偏好的移民政策是什么？

Dan Osborn：

Yeah, I think it's going to be getting corporations, small business owners, American workers, labor unions, getting judges and lawyers and advocates into the same room and hashing it out and finding a way, an immigration reform that works for American businesses, doesn't undercut American workers. But still allows immigration to occur because we know we have with the baby boomers retiring, we got a lot of open jobs, especially out on cattle ranches and construction work. We know we need workers to keep this country running forward. So it's got to find a way to work for everyone.
中文：是的，我认为这将涉及让公司、小企业主、美国工人、工会、法官、律师和倡导者坐到同一个房间里，讨论并找出办法，制定一个对美国企业有效、不损害美国工人的移民改革。但仍然允许移民流入，因为我们知道随着婴儿潮一代退休，很多职位空缺，特别是在牧场和建筑工地上。我们知道我们需要工人来保持这个国家的运转。因此，它必须找到一种对每个人都有效的方式。

Zach Weissmueller：

And then one more background question before we get into some of your policy positions that I think might be interesting for our libertarian audience. You mentioned the railroad workers who recruited you to run in 2024. There's also been reporting again from Politico that the same former Democratic Socialist of America organizer who recruited Graham Platner to run in Maine was involved recruiting you back in 2024. Are you sympathetic to this is a rising strain in the Democratic Party? Are you sympathetic to the democratic socialist agenda promoted by the likes of Mamdani and AOC?
中文：然后在我们进入一些我认为对我们的自由主义观众可能有趣的政策立场之前，我还有一个背景问题想问。你提到了那些招募你在 2024 年参选的铁路工人。Politico 也有报道说，同一个曾经招募格雷厄姆·普拉特纳在缅因州参选的前美国民主社会主义者组织者，也在 2024 年招募了你。你是否对这是民主党中日益增长的一股力量感到同情？你是否认同像马姆达尼和 AOC 这样的人所推动的民主社会主义议程？

Dan Osborn：

No, I think it's extreme. Again, you know, getting into this to protect workers' rights is why I got into this and fighting the money in politics. That's the sole reasons I got into this indus I like football analogies. The parties operate from the end zones when I think most people, politics, land somewhere in the 40-yard line, right? And we've had this pendulum over the years. It swings back and forth, you know, because the Democrats are in charge. My health care still sucks. Republicans are in charge. Gas prices are too much. You know, and so it's just this this back and forth pendulum. It's got to stop somewhere in the middle. And the DSA is not in the middle.
中文：不，我认为这是极端的。再说一次，你知道，我之所以进入这个领域是为了保护工人的权利，以及与政治中的金钱作斗争。这是我进入这个行业的唯一原因。我喜欢用足球来做比喻。政党从端区操作，而我认为大多数人的政治立场在 40 码线附近，对吧？多年来我们一直有这种钟摆效应。它来回摆动，你知道的，因为民主党掌权，我的医疗保健依然糟糕；共和党掌权，油价又太高。你知道的，所以这只是这种来回摆动的钟摆。它必须停在中间某个地方。而社会主义民主联盟（DSA）并不在中间。

Zach Weissmueller：

You've pledged not to caucus with either party. But if elected, you know, this could be a very close margin. Whoever gets control of the Senate. And that means you could be a decisive swing vote. So based on your policy positions, some of which you've hinted at here, I can imagine you voting with Democrats on various labor and antitrust issues. Are there any particular Republican senators on the other side of the aisle that you could imagine working with on specific issues? Yes.
中文：你已经承诺不会与任何一方结党。但如果当选，你知道，这可能会是一个非常接近的差距。谁掌控参议院。而这意味着你可能成为决定性的摇摆票。因此，基于你的政策立场，其中一些你在这里已经暗示过，我可以想象你在各种劳动和反垄断问题上会投票支持民主党。在另一边，你能想象在特定问题上与哪些特定共和党参议员合作吗？是的。

Dan Osborn：

Yeah, yeah. The legalization and the industrialization of hemp, you know, and for Nebraska could be billions of dollars as long as we're first in, you know, industrializing the plant. You know, and this is a plant that's drought resistant, pest resistant. It pulls heavy metals out of the ground. It could be rotated in for our crops for our farmers. And, you know, that's going to help make our farmers money. It doesn't need to be subsidized by the government. You know, I definitely work with Republicans on that. You know, I know Donald Trump ordered the Department of Justice to investigate the meatpacker monopoly. I would love to break those guys up to help create, because right now, I'm a free trade capitalist guy. Thank you. And we've done it before in the 1900s. Teddy Roosevelt broke up Standard Oil. And I think we're there now, and we've got to do it again.
中文：是的，是的。大麻的合法化和工业化，你知道，对于内布拉斯加来说，如果我们能首先工业化这种植物，可能带来数十亿美元的收益。你知道，这是一种耐旱、抗虫的植物。它可以从土壤中吸出重金属。它可以轮作在我们的作物中，为我们的农民带来收益。你知道，这可以帮助我们的农民赚钱，不需要政府补贴。你知道，我肯定会在这方面与共和党人合作。你知道，我知道唐纳德·特朗普下令司法部调查肉类加工企业的垄断。我很想拆分这些公司以帮助创建公平市场，因为现在，我是一个自由贸易资本主义者。谢谢。我们在 20 世纪曾经做过这件事。西奥多·罗斯福拆分了标准石油。我认为我们现在也到了必须再次这么做的时候了。

Zach Weissmueller：

So, I mean, someone not in the Senate but in the House who I know has championed that cause, maybe from a different angle, is Thomas Massie with his PRIME Act, which... It's essentially allowing, my understanding is to allow small beef processors to compete with the big players. That's less of a antitrust argument and more of a, you know, competitive, you know, trying to level the competitive playing field, I guess. Yeah, you also pledged. Yeah, you also pledged to end the surveillance state in your policy platform, specifically by opposing the renewal of Section 702 of FISA. And that's what allows the NSA to kind of leapfrog from foreign surveillance to domestic. That's something Senator Rand Paul of Kentucky's championed with Ron Wyden of Oregon for years. So there's a bipartisan coalition. He's also tried to prohibit corporations from selling personal data to intelligence agencies. Massey, again, has tried to stop facial recognition and flock cameras from being funded by the federal government. Would you commit to allying with libertarian-leaning Congress members on those sorts of issues?
中文：所以，我的意思是，据我所知，在众议院而不是参议院中有人支持这一事业，也许是从不同的角度，托马斯·马西（Thomas Massie）提出了他的《首要法案》（PRIME Act），该法案……本质上是允许，我的理解是允许小型牛肉加工商与大型企业竞争。我想，这不是反垄断论点，而是竞争性的，试图创造公平的竞争环境。是啊，你也答应了。是的，您还承诺在政策平台上结束监视状态，特别是反对更新 FISA 第 702 条。这就是国家安全局能够从国外监视跨越到国内监视的原因。这是肯塔基州参议员兰德·保罗和俄勒冈州参议员罗恩·怀登多年来所倡导的。所以有一个两党联盟。他还试图禁止公司向情报机构出售个人数据。梅西再次试图阻止联邦政府资助面部识别和集群摄像机。您会承诺在此类问题上与倾向自由主义的国会议员结盟吗？

10:00 - 20:00

Dan Osborn：

Oh, absolutely, 1000%. Our right to privacy is apex in my mind. I don't like the idea of our government, especially using it for nefarious means to spy on its people.
中文：哦，绝对是，百分之千。我认为我们的隐私权是至高无上的。我不喜欢我们的政府，尤其是用它做邪恶手段来监视人民的想法。

Zach Weissmueller：

That's fundamentally un-American. You mentioned up top also you called yourself a staunch defender of the Second Amendment. What would you do as a senator to protect Americans' Second Amendment rights?
中文：那从根本上来说是不符合美国精神的。你一开始提到过，你称自己是《第二修正案》的坚定捍卫者。作为参议员，你会做什么来保护美国人的《第二修正案》权利？

Dan Osborn：

Well, I mean, we already have the right, right? So it's just going to be continuing to either block legislation or, you know, that restricts our Second Amendment rights. Yeah, it's just continuing to protect it.
中文：嗯，我的意思是，我们已经有这个权利了，对吧？所以这只是继续阻止立法，或者，你知道的，限制我们的第二修正案权利的法律。是的，只是继续保护它。

Zach Weissmueller：

You have proposed five-year mental health check-ins for owners of AR-15s, which implies you also want to create a federal registry to track that. Why is that necessary? That's false.
中文：你提出对 AR-15 持有者进行五年一次的心理健康检查，这意味着你也想要创建一个联邦登记系统来追踪这些信息。为什么这是必要的？这是错误的。

Dan Osborn：

That's false. That's false. Yeah. I was talking about that. It wasn't even the original conversation that they said. I was talking about that conversation at another event. And, you know, there was a reporter there. They took it completely out of context and they turned it into my policy. That is completely
中文：那是假的。那是假的。是的。我是在谈论那个。那甚至都不是他们说的最初的对话。我是在另一个活动上谈论那次对话的。你知道，当时有一个记者在那里。他们完全断章取义，把它变成了我的政策。那完全是

Zach Weissmueller：

false and definitely a lie to try to win this election. It seemed that you were agreeing with this proposal, but you're saying that's not an official position that you have.
中文：这是虚假的，绝对是为了赢得这次选举而撒的谎。看起来你是同意这个提议的，但你说那不是你正式的立场。

Dan Osborn：

No, no. The gun owner and I were talking about mental health background checks and we were brainstorming ideas that we had both heard from people and having that conversation. That was it. It was just a conversation. It definitely was not me talking about any kind of policy.
中文：不，不。枪支拥有者和我在讨论心理健康背景调查，我们在头脑风暴一些我们都从别人那里听到的想法，仅仅是在进行那个对话而已。就是这样。那只是一次对话。绝对不是我在谈论任何政策。

Zach Weissmueller：

You've also supported banning bump stocks, and that's an issue championed by Susan Collins, who's in another competitive race. Is that another example of a senator you might team up with?
中文：你也支持禁止撞击式枪托，这是苏珊·柯林斯支持的一个议题，她正在参加另一场竞争激烈的选举。这又是你可能会与之合作的参议员的一个例子吗？

Dan Osborn：

Yeah, I mean, it's certainly not tops on my list of what I'm thinking about. You know, again, I'm thinking about right to repair. I'm thinking about going in there and immediately start to figure out consumer protection issues, breaking up the credit card duopoly, MasterCard and Visa. Interview podcast.
中文：是的，我是说，这当然不是我最关心的事情。你知道的，我在考虑的是维修权。我在考虑的是进去并立即开始研究消费者保护问题，打破信用卡的双头垄断，即万事达卡和维萨卡。采访播客。

Zach Weissmueller：

Hopefully we save up enough money for Christmases and college. But right now, with the price of fuel and this war, that's what that's what's first on my mind is trying to bring costs down for families like mine. Speaking of the war, you're a Navy veteran. You've been a critic of the Iran war and call for a Nebraska first foreign policy. What is that?
中文：希望我们能存够钱过圣诞节和支付大学学费。但现在，由于油价和这场战争，我首先想到的是如何为像我这样的家庭降低成本。说到战争，你是一名海军退伍军人。你一直批评伊朗战争，并呼吁实行“内布拉斯加优先”的外交政策。那是什么？

Dan Osborn：

Yeah, that's pulling us out of Iran. Like, I'm not anti-war. I understand there's a time for it. This war has not been explained to me, and we've had Nebraskans die in this war. And I think last count, over 850-some service members have been wounded. Welcome to the show. Thank you for joining us.
中文：是的，那是在把我们从伊朗撤出来。我的意思是，我并不是反战的。我理解战争有其时机。这场战争对我来说没有得到解释，而且我们有内布拉斯加人在这场战争中牺牲。我记得上一次统计，有超过 850 名军人受伤。欢迎收看本节目。感谢你的加入。

Zach Weissmueller：

That's unsustainable. And so it is ending this war in Iran is by default Nebraska first. Trump started the war without any congressional authorization. This is kind of presidential war making pattern that's stretched back over many administrations now. So this is something the Senate could theoretically do something about. Once if you make it into the Senate, Would you vote for a war powers resolution or to cut funding for unauthorized military action?
中文：那是不可持续的。所以，结束伊朗的这场战争的默认方式是先关注内布拉斯加州。特朗普在没有任何国会授权的情况下发动了战争。这是一种总统发动战争的模式，已经延续了许多届政府。因此，这是参议院理论上可以采取措施的事情。如果你进入参议院，你会投票支持战争权力决议，还是切断对未经授权的军事行动的资金？

Dan Osborn：

Yeah, yeah, that's how we do it, right? Congress needs to act as a co-equal branch of government, just like the founding fathers intended it to be. And this is a perfect example of not having a spine. Seeing that the damage it's caused for, I mean, nobody thinks that Iran should have a nuclear weapon. And, you know, when I served six months in the Persian Gulf, I went through the Strait of Hormuz four times in both 95 and 1997, right? We keep an aircraft carrier battle group in the region for that very reason, right? Deterrence. And it's always worked. And then we bombed Iran to cripple their enrichment capabilities. So I don't understand. Nobody can explain it to me why we're there right now. The only thing that makes sense to me is the military industrial complex needed to make some money. And, you know, again, I'm not I'm not antiwar there. There's a time for it where we have to defend people in other nations. But right now, I think we're we're at war with Iran for another country.
中文：是的，是的，这就是我们的做法，对吗？国会需要作为一个与其他政府分支平等的机构行事，就像开国元勋们本来希望的那样。这就是没有骨气的一个完美例子。看到它造成的损害，我的意思是，没有人认为伊朗应该拥有核武器。你知道，当我在波斯湾服役六个月时，我在 1995 年和 1997 年分别四次穿越霍尔木兹海峡，对吧？我们在该地区保持一个航母打击群，就是为了这个原因，对吧？威慑。而且这一直都有效。然后我们轰炸了伊朗，摧毁他们的提炼能力。所以我不明白。没人能向我解释我们现在为什么在那里。唯一对我来说合理的解释就是军事工业复合体需要赚钱。你知道，再说一次，我并不是反战。在某些时候，我们必须保卫其他国家的人民。但目前，我认为我们与伊朗开战是为了另一个国家。

Zach Weissmueller：

And we got we got pull that back. Another area of interest, I think, for libertarians is that you have spoken about you've pledged to tackle the national debt and it's both sides. We're currently at $32.4 trillion debt held by the public. And your pledge is to do that in part by cutting waste and fraud and partly by not voting for any bill that's not paid for, which is good. But to actually reduce the debt at this point, that means we need to meaningfully cut spending as well. So what sort of spending would you want to see cut?
中文：我们得把它撤回。我认为，对自由主义者来说，另一个关注点是，你曾经谈到过你承诺要解决国家债务问题，而且这是双方的问题。目前公共持有的债务为 32.4 万亿美元。你的承诺部分是通过削减浪费和欺诈来实现，部分是不投票支持任何没有资金保障的法案，这很好。但要在此时实际减少债务，这意味着我们也需要切实削减开支。那么，你希望削减哪类开支呢？

Dan Osborn：

It's the inflated spending, right? It's the inflated government contracts, you know, the no-bid contracts, right to repair. I mentioned that. Military right to repair is huge. You know, these defense contractors lock us into service agreements. They make their equipment proprietary. So our soldiers and airmen and motor pools and air wings can't, or air hangers, they can't work on their own stuff. Interview podcast. That to me is irresponsible. I'm not suggesting that we have to cut defense spending or our budget currently because we are in a war and I understand the global, the world that we live in and our place in it, certainly. But it is about cutting waste, fraud and abuse and the Pentagon should not be excluded from that as well.
中文：是过度支出，对吧？是政府合同的膨胀，你知道的，无招标合同，对吧，以及维修权。我提到过这一点。军事维修权非常重要。你知道，这些国防承包商把我们锁定在服务协议中。他们让他们的设备成为专有设备。因此，我们的士兵、飞行员、汽车队和航空联队，或者说飞机机库，他们不能自己修理自己的设备。这是在播客采访中提到的。对我来说，这是不负责任的。我并不是建议我们必须削减国防开支或当前的预算，因为我们正在参战，我理解我们所处的全球环境以及我们的地位，当然。但问题在于削减浪费、欺诈和滥用，五角大楼也不应该被排除在外。

Zach Weissmueller：

We're agreed on the need to cut waste, fraud, and abuse, but that's only going to get you so far. I think that the DOGE experiment showed us that there's large budget items. And in your platform, you pledged to never cut Social Security or Medicare benefits or raise the retirement age or allow any sort of privatization. How are we supposed to reduce the debt without any reforms to entitlement programs that account for a third of the budget?
中文：我们同意需要减少浪费、欺诈和滥用，但那只能解决一部分问题。我认为 DOGE 实验向我们展示了预算中存在大额开支。在你的政策纲领中，你承诺绝不削减社会保障或医疗保险福利，也不提高退休年龄，也不允许任何形式的私有化。在不对占预算三分之一的福利项目进行任何改革的情况下，我们怎么可能减少债务呢？

Dan Osborn：

Yeah, well, there's, man, probably close to 80 multinational corporations that are here in the United States that don't pay taxes. You know, it's not about raising taxes. It's about paying a fair share. Companies like Amazon, they funnel their profits overseas. They park them there. They don't repatriate it back to the United States. So that's their loophole that they use. Jeff Bezos has his own tax code in the IRS. You know, it's this pay-to-play world that they live in. There's no accountability. I mean, the Epstein files proves that, right? That this class of people has no accountability to the American people, to the workers that they employ. But yeah, so it's about the tax code and changing that and closing loopholes. So, you know, if we get the corporations to pay their 5% corporate tax, we're talking upwards of a trillion dollars.
中文：是的，好吧，有，大概有接近 80 家跨国公司在美国不缴税。你知道，这不是关于提高税收的问题，而是关于支付公平份额。像亚马逊这样的公司，他们把利润转到海外，并把它们存放在那里。他们不将其汇回美国。这就是他们利用的漏洞。杰夫·贝索斯在国税局有自己的税法。你知道，他们生活在这样一个付费才能玩的世界里。没有问责，我是说，爱泼斯坦的文件就证明了，对吧？这类人对美国人民、对他们雇佣的工人没有任何问责。但对，所以这关乎税法，改变它并关闭漏洞。所以，你知道，如果我们让公司缴纳他们的 5%公司税，我们谈论的是超过一万亿美元的金额。

20:00 - 30:00

Zach Weissmueller：

You know, that we could use, but obviously we got to end that war in Iran. A billion dollars a day over there is not helping anything at all. So it is about accountability and paying a fair share. You oppose some tariffs, but not others. Walk me through that. Walk me through your tariff policy.
中文：你知道，我们可以用这些，但显然我们必须结束在伊朗的战争。那里每天花费十亿美元对任何事情都没有帮助。所以这关乎问责和支付公平份额。你反对一些关税，但不反对其他关税。向我解释一下。向我解释一下你的关税政策。

Dan Osborn：

Yeah, I think a blanket policy for anything doesn't work. Whether you're talking about minimum wage or whether you're talking about tariffs, you can't just blanket it. You know, for example, for the industry that I'm in, plumbing, steam fitting, domestic water heater is now $600 more than it was pre-tariff war. That's a big number. So the The contractor that I work for isn't going to eat that $600. He can't. He doesn't stay in business. So it gets passed on to the homeowner. And, you know, that's just one piece of a home. It's getting so expensive to maintain homes because of this. So blanket tariff policies we know doesn't work. It really hurt our row crop farmers. That's why they had to get bailed out again. You know, 52% of our market for our bean farmers got cut off. And Argentina or China went and bought from Argentina because they removed their tariffs. And then we bail out Argentina with $20 billion. They're farmers. This doesn't make any, this does not make any sense. It's not computing in my brain. But we do know targeted tariffs can work for industry. There's a reason why the trucks that you see on the road are still F-150s, GMCs and Rams. Rig
中文：是的，我认为针对任何事情的一揽子政策都是行不通的。无论你是在谈论最低工资还是关税，你都不能只是一概而论。你知道，例如，对于我所在的行业，管道、蒸汽配件、家用热水器现在比关税战前贵了 600 美元。这是一个很大的数字。所以我工作的承包商不会吃那 600 美元。他不能。他不再继续做生意。所以就转嫁到房主身上了。而且，你知道，那只是一个家的一部分。因此，维护房屋变得如此昂贵。因此，我们知道一揽子关税政策行不通。这确实伤害了我们行耕种植的农民。这就是为什么他们必须再次被保释。你知道，我们豆农 52% 的市场被切断了。阿根廷或中国从阿根廷购买产品，因为他们取消了关税。然后我们用 200 亿美元救助阿根廷。他们是农民。这没有任何意义，这没有任何意义。这不是我大脑中的计算。但我们确实知道有针对性的关税可以为工业界发挥作用。您在路上看到的卡车仍然是 F-150、GMC 和 Rams，这是有原因的。钻机

Zach Weissmueller：

And again, that power should be with Congress. If we're just saying targeted tariffs, aren't we giving sort of special carve outs to certain industries? And also, if you're running on cost of living, you're saying that tariffs undoubtedly make the price of goods that people are buying, including cars, go up. So how do you square that?
中文：再说一次，这种权力应该属于国会。如果我们只是说有针对性的关税，难道我们不是在某种程度上给某些行业特别的豁免吗？而且，如果你是以生活成本为竞选口号，你就会说关税无疑会让人们购买的商品价格，包括汽车，增加。那么你怎么解决这个矛盾呢？

Dan Osborn：

Yeah, well, it's squaring it with the manufacturers still being here in this country, right? That's why the targeted tariffs in the auto industry, there's a lot of those full-size trucks are still built here. So that's American jobs, right? The water heater, a lot of the raw materials from water here comes from Canada. I'm going to start with a couple of questions. Thank you. Interview podcast.
中文：是的，好吧，这仍然是让制造商留在这个国家的问题，对吧？这就是为什么针对汽车行业的关税，其中很多全尺寸卡车仍然在这里制造。所以那是美国的工作，对吧？水加热器，很多水加热器的原材料来自加拿大。我将从几个问题开始。谢谢。采访播客。

Zach Weissmueller：

So some of the infrastructure that's being built out now here is data centers. But you're part of the populist backlash against that. You say we shouldn't give them subsidies, which I absolutely agree with. But if they're built without any special carve outs, why shouldn't they be allowed to just operate like any other industry?
中文：所以现在在这里建设的一些基础设施是数据中心。但是你是对这种建设的民粹主义反弹的一部分。你说我们不应该给他们补贴，我完全同意。但如果它们是在没有任何特别豁免的情况下建造的，为什么不应该像其他行业一样允许它们运营呢？

Dan Osborn：

Yeah, I think, well, it's, again, it's what is the data center being used for, right? And so, again, no, not a cent of our tax dollars should be going to subsidize them. And certainly our power bills and water bills shouldn't go up a cent either if they come to our communities. So that's the guardrails that I talk about. It is about guardrailing the industry. And we have to protect what we know is good. And guardrail from the bad. For example, the data that the data center exists for, is it being used to cause cancer or is it being used to store data for flock cameras to surveil us? And I know there's a data center just a couple miles up the road from where I live. It's a Facebook data center and the whole reason of existence, and it got subsidized about $2 million from taxpayers' money to build it. All it does is house the data of deceased people. Why does that even exist? I don't know. So it is about accountability, transparency on what the data is being used for, how much water they're using, how much power they're using, and community benefit agreements for people who live in the communities that data centers are building in.
中文：是的，我想，嗯，这就是数据中心的用途，对吗？所以，再说一遍，不，我们的一分钱都不应该用来补贴他们。当然，如果它们来到我们的社区，我们的电费和水费也不应该上涨一分钱。这就是我所说的护栏。这是为了保护这个行业。我们必须保护我们所知道的美好事物。并设有护栏以防坏。例如，数据中心存在的数据是被用来致癌还是被用来存储数据以便监控我们？我知道距离我住处几英里的地方有一个数据中心。这是 Facebook 数据中心，也是其存在的全部理由，它的建设得到了纳税人大约 200 万美元的补贴。它所做的只是保存已故者的数据。为什么它会存在？我不知道。因此，这涉及到数据用途的问责制、透明度、使用了多少水、使用了多少电量，以及为居住在数据中心所在社区的人们提供的社区福利协议。

Zach Weissmueller：

As we mentioned, you're running as an independent. That is sort of an implicit critique of the two-party system. And you also, interestingly, have a critique and a policy proposal about the kind of gerontocracy that we're living in, the fact that we've got people serving in the Senate, serving in other parts of the government who are in severely declining physical and probably cognitive What do you propose we do about that?
中文：正如我们提到的，你是以独立身份参选。这在某种程度上是对两党制的隐性批评。有趣的是，你也对我们所生活的那种年长统治提出了批评和政策建议，即在参议院以及政府其他部门服职的人中，有些人的身体状况严重衰退，可能认知能力也在下降。你建议我们对此应该怎么办？

Dan Osborn：

Age limits. There's an age minimum. Stands to reason there should be an age maximum. I don't know what that magic number is, but if you turn, let's say, if you turn 72 before your next election, you don't get a run again. You know, that may, again, just throwing a number out there, but that makes sense to me. And then also, you know, no former member of Congress should be able to become a lobbyist too. We need to take the teeth out of these lobbyists. Like, for example, the pharmaceutical industry, 1,500 lobbyists. It's three lobbyists for every one member of Congress. And, you know, that's why drug prices are unaffordable. They actually get tax breaks for running all those commercials during our football games. You know, Skyrizi or taking a bath on the beach or parasailing or whatever they're doing. They get tax breaks to run those ads. And that's what 1,500 lobbyists will get you. So no former member of Congress because they got all the they got the Rolodex in their phones, right?
中文：年龄限制。有最低年龄限制。道理上也应该有最高年龄限制。我不知道那个神奇的数字是多少，但比如说，如果你在下一次选举前满 72 岁，你就不能再次参选。你知道，这也许只是随便提出的一个数字，但对我来说是合理的。而且，你知道，前国会议员也不应该成为说客。我们需要削弱这些说客的影响力。比如，制药行业有 1500 名说客。每三名说客对应一名国会议员。这也就是为什么药价负担不起的原因。他们实际上还因为在我们的橄榄球比赛期间播放那些广告而获得税收减免。比如 Skyrizi 广告，或者在海滩上洗澡，或者玩滑翔伞，或者其他他们做的事情。他们播放这些广告还可以获得税收减免。这就是 1500 名说客能为你带来的效果。所以不要让前国会议员成为说客，因为他们手机里有完整的联系人名录，对吧？

Zach Weissmueller：

Of all the power players, it could be effective lobbyists that we should ban that. Trump is visiting your state the week this episode comes out to campaign for your opponent. He won Nebraska by about 20 points in 2024. So you will need to win some Trump voters in order to win.
中文：在所有有权势的人中，我们可能应该禁止的正是那些有效的游说者。特朗普将在本集播出当周访问你所在的州，为你的对手进行竞选。在 2024 年，他在内布拉斯加州以大约 20 个百分点获胜。所以你需要争取一些特朗普的支持者才能获胜。

Dan Osborn：

What is your message to them? Yeah, I would say, you know, when Trump first came onto the scene, the people that didn't want him to be in power are the same people that don't want me to be in power or to have any kind of seat in the halls of the Senate. It's because I represent an anti-establishment ideas, right? You know, not tearing it all down, certainly like some of those extremes on the DSAs, but it is about breaking this two-party doom loop and operating in the words of Abraham Lincoln, In his address, it says, this is a government by and for the people, you know, those principles that we live off of. Instead, right now, it's a government for the corporations and the 1% that control our elections through the money. And, you know, again, I don't take the corporate money. So, yeah, I would say to those Trump voters, I'm very similar in that regard. Dan Osborn, thank you for talking with Reason. Thank you. Appreciate you.
中文：你想对他们说什么？是的，我会说，你知道，当特朗普刚登场时，那些不希望他掌权的人，和那些不希望我掌权或者在参议院有任何席位的人是同一批人。这是因为我代表了一种反建制的理念，对吧？你知道，不是要彻底摧毁一切，当然不像 DSA（民主社会主义者联盟）的一些极端派那样，但这确实是关于打破两党命运循环，并按照亚伯拉罕·林肯的话去运作，他在演讲中说，这是一个为人民和由人民组成的政府，你知道，这些原则是我们赖以生存的。而现在，相反，这却是为企业和通过金钱控制我们选举的 1%服务的政府。你知道，再次强调，我不接受企业资金。所以，是的，我会对那些特朗普选民说，我在这方面非常相似。丹·奥斯本，感谢你与 Reason 交流。谢谢。感激你。

速览

一、他为什么不进任何一个党

二、「伪装的民主党」这个指控，他怎么答

三、边境墙、移民与「31 英尺的梯子」

四、他和 DSA 的距离：橄榄球场的 40 码线

五、他愿意和共和党合作的地方

六、监控国家：702 条与摄像头

七、枪支：一个被他自己否认的「政纲」

八、伊朗战争：一个海军老兵为什么反对

九、国债、五角大楼与被排除的医保

十、关税：整体关税伤自己，定向关税保就业

十一、数据中心：不给一分钱补贴

十二、年龄上限与说客

十三、他对特朗普选民的喊话

给读者的判断依据

人物、机构与术语

完整逐字稿

00:00 - 10:00

10:00 - 20:00

20:00 - 30:00

Related content

速览

一、他为什么不进任何一个党

二、「伪装的民主党」这个指控，他怎么答

三、边境墙、移民与「31 英尺的梯子」

四、他和 DSA 的距离：橄榄球场的 40 码线

五、他愿意和共和党合作的地方

六、监控国家：702 条与摄像头

七、枪支：一个被他自己否认的「政纲」

八、伊朗战争：一个海军老兵为什么反对

九、国债、五角大楼与被排除的医保

十、关税：整体关税伤自己，定向关税保就业

十一、数据中心：不给一分钱补贴

十二、年龄上限与说客

十三、他对特朗普选民的喊话

给读者的判断依据

人物、机构与术语

完整逐字稿

00:00 - 10:00

10:00 - 20:00

20:00 - 30:00

Related content