Huberman Lab速读：约会软件把恋爱变成了不平等市场
30/6/2026 · 22:03

Huberman Lab速读：约会软件把恋爱变成了不平等市场

这期速读梳理 Huberman Lab 与 Paul Eastwick 关于吸引力、约会软件和长期关系的长谈：为什么右滑市场会放大不平等，真实相处怎样改变吸引，以及年龄、收入、社会支持和替代伴侣如何影响关系稳定。

我的播客精华 | 12 档节目速读
我的播客精华 | 12 档节目速读@Soleil
这一期 Huberman Lab 不是在教人写约会资料，也不是把亲密关系包装成「几步走」的技巧课。Andrew Huberman 请来的是加州大学戴维斯分校心理学教授 Paul Eastwick，他研究的是人们怎样选择伴侣、怎样形成吸引、怎样把一段关系稳定下来。读这篇速读，你会看到一个反直觉的主线：恋爱不是一个把候选人打分排序的市场，很多重要变量只有在人和人反复相处之后才出现。1

先给结论：约会软件擅长放大「市场」，但关系靠市场之外的东西活下来

Eastwick 一开场就把问题放在约会软件上：在应用里，右滑和消息会集中到最受欢迎的人身上，所以有人把它称为世界上最不平等的市场之一。可他马上补了一句：普通熟人关系没有这么极端。人们花时间相处、互相了解之后，外貌和受欢迎程度仍然存在影响，但它们不再像应用里的筛选按钮那样决定一切。1
这也解释了为什么这期节目不像常见恋爱建议那样急着给标准答案。Eastwick 的重点不是「什么样的人最值得选」，而是「什么样的环境会让你真正看见一个人」。如果把关系完全放进类似电商筛选器的界面里，最容易被看见的是年龄、照片、收入、身高、几句简介。可一段关系是否稳定，往往取决于更慢的东西：一起处理日常、看见对方如何回应压力、双方朋友和家人的支持、以及彼此在关系里形成的独特故事。

Paul Eastwick 是谁：他研究的不是情感鸡汤，而是择偶数据

Paul Eastwick 是加州大学戴维斯分校心理学教授，Huberman 在节目介绍中称他是现代人类择偶科学的专家。本期讨论覆盖伴侣选择、初始吸引、约会软件、依恋理论、社会支持、年龄偏好、财务稳定、身体亲密、社交媒体和出轨风险等主题。节目时长约 2 小时 50 分钟，公开视频发布于 2026 年 6 月 22 日。1
Eastwick 的研究风格有一个特点：他经常把人们口头说的偏好，和真实约会或关系中的行为分开看。比如，人们常说自己想要某些特质，但当他们真的进入相处场景，最后起作用的变量可能完全不同。这对读者很重要，因为我们平时听到的大量恋爱建议，其实都停留在「我以为我想要什么」这一层。

1. 初始吸引不是清单匹配，而是「你看见了别人没看见的东西」

节目里有一个很有意思的实验室故事。Eastwick 说，他认识的一对伴侣最初在相邻实验室相处。旁人不太理解他们为什么会互相吸引，但其中一个人看到对方熟练地分装样本，那一刻被吸引了。这个细节很小，却说明了一个问题：吸引常常不是通用指标，而是在具体情境里出现的私人信号。1
这和约会软件的逻辑相反。软件要求你先用外貌、简介、职业和几句话判断一个人；现实相处里，吸引可能来自一个人如何做事、如何倾听、如何照顾别人的尴尬、如何在压力下反应。Eastwick 反复强调，人们对伴侣的感知会成为自己的现实。外人可能觉得某个人普通，甚至有缺点，但关系中的一方看到的是共同经历里形成的版本。
这里有个容易误解的点：这不是说旁人的意见都没价值。如果一段关系存在明显危险，朋友和家人的提醒当然重要。但 Eastwick 对「大家都这么看」保持谨慎。他认为，在多数普通关系里，亲密关系内部的感知往往比外部共识更能驱动关系本身。换句话说，恋爱不是大众投票。

2. 依恋风格不是终身标签，关系本身会改写人

节目讨论了焦虑型依恋和回避型依恋。Eastwick 承认这些概念有用：有些人在关系里太焦虑，过度需要确认；有些人则过度独立，确信自己不需要别人。但他更强调另一个结论：依恋取向会变。一个有回避经历的人，如果在足够长的时间里遇到合适的伴侣，建立出独特而稳定的连接，可能会逐渐变得更安全。1
这点比「你是什么依恋类型」更实用。很多人拿依恋风格当人格判决书，好像一个标签就能解释自己所有关系问题。Eastwick 的说法更像是提醒：标签只描述倾向，不等于命运。关系如果能提供稳定支持、可预期的回应和共同经验，它本身就是一种改变人的环境。
他也提到亲密关系的生理收益。亲密连接会让人恢复得更好、睡得更好，也能提供支持相关的好处。这里的机制不神秘：一个人如果长期处于「有人站在我这边」的状态，身体和心理都会少消耗很多无谓的警戒。

3. 男女差异存在，但节目反复拆掉「简单进化论」

谈到约会软件时，Eastwick 承认一个很明显的性别差异：女性在应用里对男性右滑的比例远低于男性对女性右滑的比例，节目中提到女性可能只对约 5% 的男性右滑，而男性接近 50/50。这个结果看起来很符合常见的进化心理学叙事：男性更不挑剔，女性更谨慎。1
但 Eastwick 不愿意停在这个解释上。他提醒，现代关系里有责任、抚养、经济、社会评价等因素，不能简单套用「男性传播 DNA」的故事。更关键的是，在现实生活、熟人场景或真实约会中，性别差异通常不像应用界面里那么夸张。软件把选择压缩成一个动作，现实关系却会引入大量上下文。
节目中还有一个容易反转刻板印象的结论：男性未必更抗拒承诺。Eastwick 提到，女性通常从生活各处获得社会支持，不只依赖伴侣；男性的支持和亲密需求更大比例来自伴侣。因此，在关系发展的多个节点上，男性可能更急切：更可能先说「我爱你」、更想确定关系、也更可能在分手后继续想念前任。1
这不是给任何一方贴好坏标签，而是指出关系背后的社会结构：如果一个人的亲密支持来源很窄，他就更容易把伴侣当成唯一支点。问题不只在个人性格，也在朋友网络、情感表达和社会支持的分布方式。

4. 年龄、钱和吸引力：人们说的偏好，和真实选择不总一致

Eastwick 对「女性看重男性收入」的说法做了拆解。他并不是说钱不重要，而是说收入数字本身信息量有限。更有用的问题是：这个人的钱从哪里来？他为此付出了多少时间？还有多少自由时间能投入关系？一个高收入者如果长期没有时间，关系里的实际体验可能和「经济安全」四个字相差很远。1
年龄偏好也类似。Eastwick 提到他们和做配对服务的人合作研究。这个池子里的男性平均比女性年长约 4 岁。如果传统说法完全成立，男性应该更想和年轻女性继续约会，女性应该更想和年长男性继续约会。但数据并不这么走：男性对更年轻女性略有偏好，女性也会对更年轻男性略有偏好，只是效应不大。1
这类结果的价值在于，它让「偏好」变得不那么像口号。人们在问卷里表达的理想类型，可能是一套社会上说得通的答案；但真正坐到一个人对面，身体、谈话、幽默感、轻松程度和当下氛围都会进入判断。

5. 更好的约会场景：不是更会聊天，而是更能一起做事

节目里最有行动价值的一段，是 Eastwick 对约会活动的建议。他认为，能促进互动、让双方共同完成事情的活动，比单纯隔着桌子交换信息更有用。比如运动、合作型活动、某种需要共同反应的场景，都可能让人看见对方在真实情境中的样子。Huberman 开玩笑提到密室逃脱，Eastwick 说也许第三次约会可以。1
这不是说第一次见面就要安排高强度任务，而是说「只靠聊天」会放大语言表达能力。会发消息、会讲段子、会写漂亮简介的人，可能在早期更占优势；但长期关系每天有 4000 个小责任，真正重要的是两个人如何分工、如何处理无聊的日常、如何在摩擦后修复。
Eastwick 还提到社区的重要性。徒步俱乐部、陶艺课、匹克球、即兴课这类活动不只是提供一次相遇，它们可能形成一个会随时间生长的环境。人在这种环境里反复碰面，才能出现「我看见了你在不同情境中的样子」这种信息。约会软件很难提供这一点。

6. 关系稳定，不是因为外面没人更好，而是因为你不再用市场眼光看外面

节目后半段谈到「替代伴侣」和社交媒体。Eastwick 说，在一段幸福的一夫一妻关系里，人们会倾向于把其他潜在伴侣看得没那么有吸引力。心理学里把这称为对替代选项的贬低；他认为这是一种保护机制，不是坏事。1
这个观点很重要，因为它指出了市场比喻的边界。关系稳定不是因为伴侣在客观市场上永远排名第一，而是因为亲密关系会改变你的评价系统。你不再把每个外部选项都当成可比较商品。只要你还在用「有没有更优候选」的方式看关系，关系就很难真正离开市场。
但节目也提醒，社交媒体和私信会持续把替代选项送到人面前。一开始只是聊天，看上去没什么；如果一直升级，就会削弱关系的边界。这里没有道德说教，只有一个很实际的判断：关系需要保护，不是因为人天然可靠，而是因为人的注意力和自我价值感很容易被外界信号牵动。

7. 这期最值得带走的，不是择偶标准，而是一个判断框架

如果只能带走一件事，我会选这个框架：别把伴侣选择只看成「找最优对象」，更要看自己是否处在能产生真实信息的场景里。
约会软件给的是低成本初筛，不能替代现实相处。收入、年龄、外貌和简介都有信息，但它们不足以预测一个人怎样回应冲突、怎样照顾他人、怎样与朋友互动、怎样处理长期责任。相反，重复见面、共同活动、朋友网络、家庭支持、身体亲密、一起经历困难，这些慢变量才更接近关系本身。
所以这期节目对单身者和有伴侣者都不只是「恋爱建议」。单身者可以少一点把自己投放到市场的焦虑，多创造能反复相处的环境；有伴侣者则可以问一个更具体的问题：我们现在的日常结构，是在积累共同故事，还是把关系变成任务清单？
转录稿说明：本期视频有 YouTube 英文字幕与简体中文自动字幕。字幕文件没有可靠说话人分轨，因此下方不强行把每段归给 Huberman 或 Eastwick；按每 10 分钟整理一次，英文原文在前，中文译文在后。

完整逐字转录稿（YouTube 英文字幕 + 简体中文自动字幕）

说明：本期使用 YouTube 可下载英文字幕与简体中文字幕作为完整转录依据。字幕文件没有可靠说话人分轨，因此下方不强行给每段标注具体姓名；时间轴按每 10 分钟整理一次，英文原文在前，中文译文在后。

00:00 - 10:00

英文原文
When you look at who gets the right swipes and who receives messages on the apps, it's the most popular people. I mean, folks have claimed that it's one of the most unequal markets in the world, but regular acquaintance is not nearly so dramatic. I don't think the influence of attractiveness ever goes away, right? There's always going to be an unlevel playing field to some extent, but the more that people spend time together getting to know each other, it reduces some of those market forces that give the desirable people all the advantages. Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based [music] tools for everyday life. I'm Andrew Huberman and I'm a professor of neurobiology and opthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. My guest today is Dr. Paul Eastwick, a professor of psychology at the University of California, Davis. Today we discuss the science of attraction, mate selection, and relationships. And I promise you what you are going to hear will surprise you. Paul's research has discovered that much of what you've heard about how people select partners, date, form relationships, even break up or repartner is simply wrong. At least when you look at the actual data. For example, his data show that both men and women when given a choice select partners that are younger than them. Yes, you heard that right. It's not just men. Men and women equally select partners that are younger than them given the choice. His data also challenged the idea that financial status is more important to women when looking for male partners. Turns out that when men are looking for female partners, on average, financial status is as important as it is when women are looking for men. And somewhat less surprising, his work shows that indeed dating apps select for qualities that are not the ones that research shows builds lasting partnerships. But he also offers solutions to those that are using dating apps to try and find a partner. Today's discussion is not just about finding a partner. It's also about what solidifies and maintains healthy relationships over time. Again, what the data say about that. Things like physical intimacy being among the very strongest predictors of relationship stability. As well as both partners feeling that no matter who else might be attractive to them, that their partner has unique qualities that no one else can match. So whether you are in a relationship or not, looking for a relationship or not, today's discussion gets into social bonding of all sorts and repeatedly throughout today's episode both as it relates to single people looking for a partner, people who are already partnered, we talk about the importance of activities that are done with other people, could be other couples or other single people, etc. And that this is critical for those wanting to meet a partner and it turns out to be critical for maintaining a healthy long-term relationship. We'll talk about what the data say about that. Super interesting. So today is not just about the real data of how people rate attractiveness, find partners, and the glue that keeps people happily together. It's about the real life data and the actions that anyone can take that help you build and sustain excellent romantic and other types of relationships. Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford. It is however part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science related tools to the general public. In keeping with that theme, today's episode does include sponsors. And now for my discussion with Dr. Paul Eastwick. Dr. Paul Eastwick, welcome. >> Thank you so much for having me. A lot of theories out there, a lot of speculation about attraction, dating, romance, and relationships, which are separable things. Of course, we'll talk about all of them. But one of the semi-dominant themes in the public narrative and indeed on many podcasts is is kind of anchoring to evolutionary theory which to put it really coarsely sort of a market-based theory. You know people even say I married up or uh you know and people but quantitative measures on people they're a six they're a seven they're a 10 in this but a four in that. You know, as a neuroscientist, I hear that and I immediately go to, and again, this is just purely theoretical. >> Oh, this sounds very limbic. This is very much of like the hypothalamus. This is very much like the kind of thing that you might expect under conditions of like um low food availability, >> low mate availability, a lot of weapons and a few and very few laws, you know, to to regulate violence or something. Meaning men will will harm each other in order to get access to mates. women will um be deceptive. This is the whole idea. And you step back and you go, well, that's not the world we live in now. We have a forebrain. We can make choices. We can be strategic in the direction of benevolence. We can think about kindness. And so to me, it seems we need a revision or at least a better understanding of what's actually true in 2026 and forward. So, if you would, what are your thoughts about what is not true based on the data >> and perhaps what is true about this quote unquote evolutionary model of dating relationships and so on. The marketplace ideas, I think they definitely have their place and it deres from a a sensible evolutionary perspective like what you're describing. I think it describes well what happens in initial attraction settings when people are really meeting for the first time. There's this class demo that I do in my undergraduate classes. A lot of people use this demo and what you do is you have a bunch of your students put a number on their foreheads and they sort of hold it up so that they can't see it but other people can. and you tell the students your goal is to pair up with the highest value person that you can and you don't know what your number is, but I'm going to count to five and then I want you all to stroll around the room and try to make mating offers to folks. And what you see is that the people who have been randomly assigned a low number, they start to panic because what happens is that nobody will talk to them. >> And this is random. uh you know otherwise it would be very unethical and also who would decide but >> but people don't like it. I mean if you get a low number >> it's not an enjoyable experience >> and I think there is a parallel to what people are experiencing as they're growing up or maybe even if they're a little older and they're going to a party and they haven't met anybody there. So this is an analogy for how people internalize and you know act upon something that we call mate value and it's it's like what you describe. It's supposedly linked to traits that reflect your core desiraability like maybe your physical attractiveness but it could be other related traits too. It could be things like the size of your bank account or your status. What we tend to see is that when people are meeting for the first time, this is um a reasonable faximile of how people behave. But interesting things tend to happen when people get to know each other over a little bit more time. What then tends to happen is that that agreement that is required for that study to work. That study only works because you can read the numbers on people's foreheads. But if I were to blur that number, we wouldn't see as much pairing up. It wouldn't be as sad and as difficult for the people with low numbers. And in real life, that's kind of what tends to happen. We stop agreeing about who the eights are and who the fives are. And people might on average say that you're a six, but if I've gotten to know you over time, it means there's a chance I think you're a nine. There's also a chance I think you're a three. And so that increase in idiosyncrasy and variability, I think, is a really fortunate thing. And it's the thing that's going to allow a lot of partners to find each other uh even if they're not consensually the most desirable people. Consensually meaning in the eyes of others. >> Right. Right. Right. Right. So even if on average people think uh you're kind of middling with enough time people are more likely to find okay but okay you all think I'm a five but she thinks I'm a 10. And then what you're kind of crossing your fingers for are these moments where and I think she's a 10 too. And it's this uh level of sort of disagreement or the emergence of what we might comp call compatibility that I think is it's been missing from the evolutionary narratives, but I think it plays a core part in explaining how couples get together as well. Wow. Um so many things come to mind. Uh the first thing that comes to mind is the question, you know, who and what are others looking at? Yeah, it seems like one of the more I want to use the word immature, but let's say less evolved, not in the evolutionary biology context, but kind of like life maturation sense, like less evolved aspects of self is when >> we are not thinking about what we actually like and don't like, >> but we're paying a lot of attention to what other people like and dislike as a barometer of what we should do or not do. Now, of course, that can be very informative in healthy ways, but when it really comes down to it, it's a potentially very toxic aspect of human nature, right? So, what I what I hear you saying is that at some point there's this kind of um dating, romance, and relational maturity that people come to where they're really able to sense what they actually like and they're able to put the blinders up to how other people are necessarily behaving. like are does everyone like this person? Do they not like this person? And the the words that
中文译文
当你观察谁获得了正确的 滑动操作以及谁会收到消息 应用程序，它是最受欢迎的人群。我 意思是，有人声称它是其中之一 最不平等的市场之一 世界，但普通熟人并非如此。 几乎如此戏剧化。我不认为 吸引力的影响力始终存在 走开，对吧？总会有 在某种程度上，这是一个不公平的竞争环境。 但人们花在时间上的时间越多 一起互相了解， 削弱某些市场力量 把所有东西都给那些理想的人 优势。 欢迎收听 Huberman Lab 播客， 我们在这里讨论科学和 日常使用的基于科学的[音乐]工具 生活。 我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，我是一名教授。 神经生物学和眼科学 斯坦福大学医学院。我的客人 今天我们请到的是保罗·伊斯特威克博士，一位教授。 大学心理学 加利福尼亚州戴维斯市。今天我们来讨论…… 吸引力科学，择偶， 以及人际关系。我向你保证 你即将听到的内容会让你感到惊讶。 你。保罗的研究发现： 你听到的很多关于如何 人们选择伴侣、日期、表格 关系，甚至分手或 repartner 的说法完全错误。至少当 你要看实际数据。为了 例如，他的数据显示，男性和女性 女性在有选择权时会做出选择 比他们年轻的伴侣。 是的，你没听错。不仅仅是 男人。男女平等选择 比他们年轻的伴侣 如果可以选择的话。他的数据也 挑战了金融的观点。 对女性而言，地位更为重要 寻找男性伴侣。原来如此 当男人寻找女性时 合伙人平均财务状况 这一点与女性的情况同样重要 寻找男性。而且略少一些 令人惊讶的是，他的作品确实表明了这一点。 约会软件会根据以下特质进行筛选： 并非研究表明的那些人。 建立长久的合作关系。但他也有 为正在使用的用户提供解决方案 使用约会软件寻找伴侣。 今天的讨论不仅仅关乎 寻找伴侣。它还关乎什么 巩固并维持健康 随着时间的推移，彼此之间的关系。再说一遍，什么？ 数据也印证了这一点。诸如 身体上的亲密关系是其中最重要的因素之一。 关系的最强预测因素 稳定。以及双方合作伙伴 感觉无论其他人是谁 对他们来说有吸引力的是他们的伴侣 拥有其他任何人都无法比拟的独特品质 可以匹配。所以无论你身处何地 无论是否恋爱关系，都在寻找 无论是否与对方有关系，今天的讨论主题是…… 参与各种社交活动 在今天的所有内容中反复出现 剧集既与单集相关，也与单集相关。 寻找伴侣的人，那些 我们已经建立了合作关系，我们来谈谈…… 所做活动的重要性 与其他人在一起，也可能是其他情况。 情侣或其他单身人士等等。 这对那些想要……的人来说至关重要。 去见一位伴侣，结果却发现 对维持健康至关重要 长期关系。我们将讨论…… 数据说明了什么？极好的 有趣的。所以今天不仅仅是关于 人们评价的真实数据 吸引力、寻找伴侣以及 维系人们幸福关系的粘合剂。 它关乎真实生活数据以及 任何人都可以采取的帮助行动 你建立并维持了美好的浪漫关系 以及其他类型的关系。前 首先，我想强调的是…… 这个播客与我的播客无关。 斯坦福大学的教学和研究职位。 但这正是我愿望的一部分， 努力为消费者带来零成本 科学和科学相关信息 向公众提供相关工具。在 延续这个主题，今天的节目 包含赞助商。现在轮到我了 与保罗·伊斯特威克博士的讨论。博士 欢迎保罗·伊斯特威克。 非常感谢你们的邀请。很多 市面上有很多理论，其中很多 关于吸引力、约会等方面的猜测 浪漫和人际关系，它们是 可分离的事物。当然，我们会谈的。 几乎涵盖了所有这些。但其中之一 公共领域中的半主导主题 叙事，以及许多播客节目中的叙事，都是如此。 有点像是进化论的锚点 理论，粗略地说 某种程度上是一种基于市场的理论。你知道 人们甚至会说我嫁得好，或者呃，你 了解和人，但定量 对人们的衡量标准是，他们是六。 七分，他们在这方面是十分，但四分 在这方面。你知道，作为一名神经科学家， 我听到这话，立刻就过去了， 再次强调，这只是纯粹的理论探讨。 哦，这听起来很像边缘系统疾病。这是 非常像下丘脑。这 非常像那种东西 在以下情况下，您可能会有这样的预期： 比如食物供应不足之类的， 伙伴稀少，武器众多 还有寥寥几条法律，你知道的。 以规范暴力或其他行为。 这意味着男人之间会互相伤害 为了获得与同伴接触的机会。女性将 嗯，要具有欺骗性。这就是全部思路。 然后你后退一步，心想，嗯…… 我们现在生活的世界并非如此。我们 有前脑。我们可以做出选择。 我们可以朝着以下方向制定战略： 仁。我们可以思考一下 仁慈。所以在我看来，我们需要 修改，或者至少是改进 对真相的理解 2026 年及以后。所以，如果你愿意的话，你会说什么？ 你的想法都是关于不真实的事情。 基于数据 或许，关于这一点，真相是什么？ 引述进化模型 恋爱关系等等。这 我认为他们有市场创意。 当然，它们有其存在的意义，而且它们确实有其价值。 从合理的进化角度来看 就像你描述的那种视角。 我觉得它很好地描述了发生的事情。 在初始吸引力设置中 人们真的第一次见面了。 时间。我做了一个课堂演示。 在我的本科课程中。很多 人们使用这个演示程序，而你所做的是 你让一群学生放了一个 他们额头上写着数字，然后进行排序 把它举起来，让他们看不到。 但其他人可以。然后你告诉 你们的目标是和同学们结对。 你能找到的最有价值的人 你甚至不知道自己的号码是多少。 但我会数到五，然后 我希望你们都在房间里走动。 并尝试向他人求婚。 你看到的是，那些人 被随机分配到一个低 数量越多，他们开始恐慌的原因是什么 结果是没有人愿意和他说话 他们。 这是随机的。呃，你知道的 否则就非常不道德了。 谁来决定呢？ 但人们并不喜欢它。我的意思是，如果你 获得较低的数字 这不是一次愉快的经历。 我认为这与以下情况有相似之处： 人们正在经历他们正在经历的事情 成长过程中，或者即使他们是…… 他们年纪稍大一些，即将前往 聚会，他们还没遇到任何人 那里。这是一个类比。 人们如何内化，你知道 对我们称之为伴侣的东西采取行动 价值，就像你 描述。据说它与……有关 反映你核心特质的特质 吸引力，比如你的外貌 吸引力，但也可能是其他原因。 还有相关的特征。可能是某些事情 比如你的银行账户余额，或者 你的状态。 我们往往看到的是，当人们 这是他们第一次见面。 嗯，这是人们如何运作的一个合理的传真。 表现。 但往往会发生一些有趣的事情。 当人们逐渐了解彼此之后 再给我一点时间。那么接下来会发生什么呢？ 能够达成的协议就是 这是该项研究得以开展的必要条件。那 学习之所以有效，是因为你可以阅读。 人们额头上的数字。但 如果我把那个数字模糊处理，我们 不会看到那么多配对。它 不会那么悲伤，也不会那么难过。 数字较低的人。而实际上 生活，往往就是这样。 发生。我们不再就谁是谁达成一致意见 八号是谁，五号是谁。和 人们平均可能会说你是 六分，但如果我了解你的话 随着时间的推移，这意味着我有可能 你觉得自己是九分。还有 我觉得你大概是 3 分。所以 特质的增加和 我认为，变异性确实是一个很大的问题。 真是幸运的事。就是它。 这将允许很多合作伙伴加入。 找到彼此，即使他们是 并非双方一致认为最理想的 人们。双方同意的含义，在眼中。 其他人。 正确的。正确的。正确的。正确的。所以即使 平均而言，人们认为你很友善。 中等水平的人，只要有足够的时间，就会…… 更有可能发现还可以，但你还可以 所有人都觉得我五分，但她觉得我…… 10。然后你有点像 祈祷这些 我觉得她有十分的潜质。 也。而这正是这种程度的…… 分歧或我们所出现的东西 可能会称之为兼容性，我 认为它一直缺失于…… 进化论叙事，但我认为 在解释如何 情侣们也会聚会。哇。嗯，所以 脑海中浮现出很多想法。呃，第一个 我首先想到的是…… 问题是，你知道，谁和什么 还有其他人在看吗？是的，看起来是这样。 我更想使用这个词之一 不成熟，或者说进化程度较低， 并非在进化生物学的语境下， 但有点像人生成熟的感觉， 就像自我中那些进化程度较低的方面一样 什么时候 我们没有考虑我们 真正喜欢和不喜欢的东西 但我们非常关注 其他人喜欢和不喜欢什么 衡量我们应该做什么或不应该做什么的晴雨表 做。当然，这可能非常 以健康的方式提供信息，但当它 归根结底，这是一个 人类潜在的剧毒方面 大自然，对吧？所以，我听到的 你的意思是说，在某个时候…… 这种约会、恋爱和 人们逐渐达到的关系成熟度 他们真的能够感知到什么 他们其实喜欢并且能够 戴上眼罩，别去管别人怎么想 必然会表现出某种行为。就像…… 大家都喜欢这个人吗？难道他们不是吗？ 喜欢这个人吗？还有那些话

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come to mind, two words are junior high, >> like the junior high school dance for a number of reasons is kind of the first time, you know, most kids are starting to hit puberty or somewhere in puberty at that phase. And so there's a lot of recognition of others and >> kind of like who is cool, who's not cool, who's getting attention, who's not getting attention seems to surface first in junior high. >> Yeah. >> And admittedly, we're all pretty immature in junior high. Yeah. Exactly. >> [laughter] >> So, has this been looked at in in a structured way? For instance, are there adults who are um good >> at ignoring what you you know what the consensus is? And are are they able to find mates and and set up relationships more readily than people who are paying a lot of attention to what other people like and don't like? Yes, I'm I am sure that there's considerable individual variability in how people react to what's going on around them. Sometimes you see this phenomenon called mate choice copying. But what that essentially means is that you know you kind of look to see who's attracted to somebody in my uh you know is everybody attracted to this person? Well, there must be some signal there. I'll sort of follow that. I totally agree. It it's a very junior high way of thinking about this whole process. But I think a lot of what is happening is that if people are spending time together and I I often go back to thinking about what is it like when we're hanging out in mixed gender groups if you're heterosexual. So we're spending time together and maybe for whatever reason I happen to spend more time with this person. we find something interesting to chat about. I see her reacting in situations that other people don't get to see. And so the particular time that I spend with her ends up being the material that I use that causes my opinion to diverge from everybody else's. So everybody else might be like, "She's not all that great." And I think, "But you weren't there when we were hanging out talking about, you know, some family challenges that I had. I'm trying to put myself back in like what were the things we would have been frustrated about in high school. But you know talking about like problems at school or problems with other friends like she was supportive and listened to me and then I was supportive and I listened to her and that reciprocity through a unique experience with another person. A lot of times this is where initial attraction comes from. It sounds a little squishy. It doesn't sound like the sexy form of attraction that we often think about, but what we see in our work is a lot of times this is how it happens. It it takes a little while, but attraction can form when two people spend that time together sort of pulling unique things out of each other. I'd like to take a quick break to acknowledge one of our sponsors, David. David makes protein bars unlike any other. Their newest bar, the Bronze Bar, has 20 gram of protein, only 150 calories, and zero gram of sugar. I have to say, these are the best tasting protein bars I've ever had, and I've tried a lot of protein bars over the years. These new David bars have a marshmallow base and they're covered in chocolate coating and they're absolutely incredible. I of course eat regular whole foods. I eat meat, chicken, fish, eggs, fruits, vegetables, etc. But I also make it a point to eat one or two David bars per day as a snack, which makes it easy to hit my protein goal of 1 gram of protein per pound of body weight. And that allows me to take in the protein I need without consuming excess calories. I love all the David Bronze Bar flavors, including cookie dough, caramel chocolate, double chocolate, peanut butter chocolate. They all actually taste like candy bars. Again, they're amazing. But again, they have no sugar and they have 20 gram of protein with just 150 calories. If you'd like to try David, you can go to davidprotein.com/huberman. Right now, David is offering a deal where if you buy four cartons, you get the fifth carton for free. You can also find David on Amazon or in stores such as Target, Walmart, and Kroger. Again, to get the fifth carton for free, go to davidproin.com/huberman. Today's episode is also brought to us by Lingo. Lingo is an everyday wearable that tracks your glucose 247. Glucose drives a lot of key processes that support energy, body composition, and long-term health. When glucose is constantly spiking and crashing, that's where we can start to see metabolic dysfunction. And over time, that can even progress to pre-diabetes. Right now, about 115 million adults in the US have pre-diabetes. Most don't know it, and a higher percentage of men have it than women do. Often, there aren't clear symptoms of pre-diabetes early on, so people don't tend to look into it. But the fact is that metabolic health is shaping how your body functions every day, whether you feel it or not. Tracking your glucose with Lingo can help you see how food, activity, and stress impact your glucose throughout the day. I personally have used Lingo, and it's been an invaluable tool for improving my metabolic health. If you would like to try Lingo, Hubberman Lab listeners in the US and UK can save 10% on a 4-week plan. Just visit hellolingo.com/huberman for more information. Terms and conditions apply. Again, that's hellingo.com/huberman. >> It's interesting. I'm thinking about um movies. >> Yeah. >> And um admittedly, I haven't seen that many romantic comedies, but there's some very there's some pretty awesome I've seen a few of them. Uh but there's some awesome movies about this issue. >> Yeah. >> And I'll offer some examples that will date myself, but >> that seem to fall into at least three bins. >> One is you're awesome. I'm awesome. Let's get together. All right. Nowadays, I think regardless of music taste, I think the kind of uh like royally celebrated couple is not a royal couple. Incidentally, I would say it's like the Taylor Swift >> Kelsey couple. People like people are like they're both winners. They're both super attractive. They're both super successful. And you know whether you like the Chiefs or you don't, whether or not you like her music or you don't, you're like, you're like they're like badass winners pairing up >> and it's very hard to say anything except like, wow, they totally quote unquote belong together, right? There's a sort of So there's that pairing and you can find that in movies and uh all the like ' 80s like um uh John Hughes movies centered around this like um and then broke that model. We'll go back to that. The other one would be Yeah. the breaking of that model. the like the it's this is very 80s but the kind of like the athlete you know pairs up with the nerd right okay now we nowadays we have athlete nerds and so it doesn't work quite as well >> and then the third model is the like well you're screwed up and I'm screwed up but we're really good people >> like you get true romance >> the movie True Romance which is an amazing movie right you know she was a >> you know not by her own choice apparently like she she's like I've been a prostitute for three call girl for three days and he's Well, I you know, someone paid for you to be on this date with me. They fall in love. They leave their >> professions, right? And they go and they go on this sort of semi-rime spree um that really uh demonstrates their immense love and devotion to one another. And the whole notion is like you're so cool. They both think the other person is super cool, don't care about their past, and kind of enjoy the fact that they're both kind of from >> uh hard scrabble backgrounds. So then there's that. And what's so different about that kind of model compared to like today where I hear because I so I don't have a lot to offer about personal experience on apps many years ago but it's been a while is this notion that like everyone you hear this everyone's competing for the same small number of people. >> So it seems like even those those three cliche models that are presented in a number of movies they exist. It's like since when did is everyone thinking that they're supposed to pair up with the same small number of people? This is like ridiculous. That's like saying everyone's supposed to like the same >> top three songs even though you might not even like that genre of music. That's that's um insanity. >> Yeah, the apps absolutely pull for this. So when you look at who gets the right swipes and who receives messages on the apps, it's the most popular people. I mean, folks have claimed that it's one of the most unequal markets in the world. I mean, it's basically a kleptocracy. The extent to which Yeah, kleptocracy, right? The extent to which it's skewed, right? That there's like, you know, the rich, quote unquote, who have all the, you know, who who get all the all the the right swipes at the top. But regular acquaintance is not nearly so dramatic. So, you know, one example that I like to use is that if our job was just to evaluate whether somebody standing in front of us was hot or not, and it was somebody that we like interacted with briefly and we're making just simple binary judgments, you and I are going to agree about like 2/3 of the time. So that's that's better than 50/50, but it's far from 100%. I I think actually that would surprise a lot of people. There's a reasonable amount of disagreement there. That's already starting to set the stage for us not necessarily pursuing the most appealing person because if there's disagreement, that means there's a chance that, well, you're going to go for this person, I'm going to go for that person, and it it levels out the playing field somewhat. I don't think the influence of attractiveness ever goes away, right? There's always going to be an unlevel playing field to some extent, but the more that people spend time together getting to know each other, it reduces some of those, you know, uh th those market forces that
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脑海中浮现的两个词是初中。 就像初中舞会一样 原因数量算是首要的。 你知道，大多数孩子都开始…… 进入青春期或处于青春期的某个阶段 在那个阶段。所以有很多 对他人给予认可和 有点像在评判谁酷，谁不酷。 酷，谁受到关注，谁没有受到关注。 获得关注似乎最先浮出水面。 初中。 是的。 诚然，我们都很漂亮 初中阶段还不成熟。是的。确切地。 [笑声] 那么，这个问题是否已经有人研究过了呢？ 结构化的方式？例如，是否存在 成年人，嗯，很好 忽略你所知道的 共识是什么？他们是否有能力 寻找伴侣并建立关系 比那些付费的人更容易接受 非常关注其他人的想法 喜欢和不喜欢？是的，我确信 存在相当多的个体 人们对以下情况的反应存在差异： 他们周围发生了什么事？有时 你会看到这种叫做“马黛茶”的现象。 选择性复制。但是那又怎样呢？ 本质上意味着你知道你 看看谁会被吸引 我认识的某个人，你知道，就是所有人 对这个人感兴趣吗？嗯，就是这样。 那里肯定有某种信号。我会有点儿 照做。 我完全同意。这是一个非常初级的职位。 对这一切的高层次思考方式 过程。但我认为很多事情都是 实际情况是，如果人们在消费 在一起的时光，我经常回到 思考一下当……时的感觉 我们经常在男女混合的群体里聚会。 如果你是异性恋的话。 所以我们在一起消磨时间， 也许出于某种原因，我碰巧 多花些时间和这个人在一起。我们 找点有趣的话题聊聊 关于。我看到她在各种情况下的反应。 其他人看不到的。和 所以，我花在……的特定时间 她最终成为了我创作的素材。 使用这种用法会让我产生不同的看法。 与其他所有人的都不一样。所以其他人 可能会这样说：“她也没那么了不起。” 很棒。”然后我想，“但你其实并不棒。” 我们当时在那里闲逛聊天。 你知道，关于一些家庭挑战 我曾经有过。我试图让自己 回到过去，我们当时都做了些什么？ 在高中时期，他可能会对此感到沮丧。 学校。但你知道，说到就像 学校里的问题或与……有关的问题 其他朋友也像她一样很支持她。 他们听了我的话，然后我就 她很支持我，我也听了她的话。 这种互惠是通过一种独特的方式实现的。 与他人相处的经历。很多 有时，这就是最初吸引力的来源。 源自。听起来有点软绵绵的。 听起来不像那种性感的…… 我们经常思考的吸引力， 但我们在工作中看到的是很多 有时事情就是这样发生的。它 需要一点时间，但吸引力可以 当两个人共度这段时间时，就形成了。 把一些独特的东西聚集在一起。 彼此分离。我想参加一个 短暂休息一下，向我们的一位成员致意。 赞助商，大卫。大卫制作蛋白质 与众不同的酒吧。他们最新开的酒吧， 这款铜棒含有 20 克蛋白质， 仅含 150 卡路里，零克 糖。我必须说，这些是最好的。 品尝了我吃过的所有蛋白棒， 我尝试过很多种蛋白棒 岁月。这些新款大卫酒吧有 棉花糖底，上面覆盖着 巧克力涂层，而且它们绝对是 极好的。我当然会正常饮食。 天然食物。我吃肉、鸡肉、鱼。 鸡蛋、水果、蔬菜等等。但我 还要记得吃一两个。 每天吃一根大卫能量棒作为零食， 这让我很容易达到我的蛋白质摄入目标。 每磅体重需要 1 克蛋白质 重量。这让我能够吸收 我不需要消耗任何食物就能获得所需的蛋白质 摄入过多的热量。我喜欢所有大卫 铜条口味，包括曲奇口味 面团、焦糖巧克力、双份 巧克力，花生酱巧克力。他们 实际上它们尝起来都像糖果。 再说一遍，他们太棒了。但是，他们又一次…… 不含糖，每份含 20 克 蛋白质含量仅为 150 卡路里。如果你 想试试大卫吗？你可以去 davidprotein.com/huberman。 目前，大卫正在提供一项优惠。 如果你买四箱，就能得到 第五箱免费。你也可以 在亚马逊或其他商店找到大卫 例如 Target、沃尔玛和 Kroger。再次， 要免费获得第五箱，请前往 davidproin.com/huberman。 今天的节目也由……赞助播出。 语言。 Lingo 是一款日常穿戴设备 全天候追踪您的血糖。血糖 它驱动着许多关键流程， 支持能量、身体成分和 长期健康。当葡萄糖 不断波动，忽高忽低，就是这样。 我们可以开始看到代谢 功能障碍。随着时间的推移，这可能会 甚至发展为糖尿病前期。正确的 目前，美国约有 1.15 亿成年人 患有糖尿病前期。大多数人并不知道这一点。 男性患病比例更高。 比女性多。通常情况下，没有明确的 糖尿病前期症状早期就会出现，所以 人们通常不会去深究这件事。但 事实上，代谢健康是 塑造你身体的日常机能 无论你是否有这种感觉，每一天都是如此。 使用 Lingo 追踪您的血糖可以 帮助你了解食物、活动和 压力会影响你的血糖水平 那天。我个人使用过 Lingo。 它一直是不可或缺的工具，用于…… 改善我的新陈代谢健康。如果你 想试试 Lingo，Hubberman Lab 美国和英国的听众可节省 10%。 为期 4 周的计划。只需访问 hellolingo.com/huberman 了解更多信息。条款和 适用条款及细则。再说一遍，那是 hellingo.com/huberman。 很有意思。我在想…… 电影。 是的。 嗯，说实话，我还没看过。 有很多浪漫喜剧，但也有一些 确实有一些非常棒的东西。 见过其中一些。呃，但是有一些 关于这个主题的精彩电影。 是的。 我将举一些例子来说明这一点。 我自己约会，但是 似乎至少可以分为三类 垃圾箱。 一是 你太棒了。我很棒。我们开始吧 一起。好的。如今，我认为 撇开音乐品味不谈，我认为 有点像皇室庆祝那样 这对夫妇并非皇室夫妇。 顺便说一句，我觉得它就像…… 泰勒·斯威夫特 凯尔西夫妇。像人一样的人 感觉他们俩都是赢家。他们俩 超级有吸引力。他们俩都超级棒 成功的。你知道你是否 无论你是否喜欢酋长队，无论…… 不管你喜欢她的音乐还是不喜欢， 你就像，你就像他们就像 超强获胜者组合 很难说些什么。 只不过，哇，他们完全引用了 它们应该在一起，对吧？有 所以就有了这种配对。 你可以在电影里找到它，呃，所有东西。 就像 80 年代的约翰·休斯 以这为主题的电影，比如…… 然后打破了这种模式。我们将回到 那。另一个答案是“是”。这 打破这种模式。就像 这很有 80 年代的风格，但又有点像 就像你认识的那个运动员与……搭档 书呆子现在好吧，我们现在我们 有运动员书呆子，所以它不会 效果相当不错 然后第三种模型是这样的 你完蛋了，我也完蛋了。 但我们都是很好的人。 就像你得到了真正的浪漫 电影《真实罗曼史》是一部 这部电影太棒了，对吧？你知道她当时…… 你不知道，这不是她自己的选择。 显然她就像我一直那样 三个妓女的应召女郎 三天后他就…… 嗯，你知道，有人付钱给你了。 能和我一起度过这个约会。他们坠入 爱。他们离开了他们的 职业，对吧？然后他们就走了 开始这种半韵律的狂欢吧 这确实展现了他们的 对一个人的无限爱与奉献 其他。整个概念就像 你太酷了。他们都认为 对方人超好，我不在乎 关于他们的过去，并且有点喜欢这种感觉。 事实上，他们俩都有点像来自 呃，难度很高的拼字游戏背景。所以， 还有那件事。究竟有何不同？ 与那种模型相比 就像今天，我听到因为我……我 个人方面没什么可说的。 多年前就有了使用应用程序的经验，但 这个想法已经存在一段时间了。 就像你听到的每个人一样，每个人都会这么说 争夺同一批数量有限的资源 人们。 所以看起来就连那三个人也是如此。 以陈词滥调形式呈现的模型 它们存在的电影数量。就像 什么时候大家都这么想了？ 它们应该与……配对 人数还是那么少吗？这是 简直荒谬至极。那就像说 每个人都应该喜欢同样的东西。 即使你可能……，前三首歌 甚至都不喜欢那种音乐类型。 那简直是疯了。 是的，这些应用绝对会推动这件事。 所以，当你审视谁获得了正确的…… 滑动操作以及谁会收到消息 应用程序，它是最受欢迎的人群。我 意思是，有人声称它是其中之一 最不平等的市场之一 世界。我的意思是，它基本上是一个 盗贼统治。是的，在多大程度上 对吧，盗贼统治？程度 这有偏差，对吧？就像这样， 你知道，那些有钱人，用引号括起来的，谁 你知道，所有那些得到所有的人 顶部所有向右滑动的操作。 但普通熟人远非如此。 太戏剧化了。举个例子 我喜欢用的方法是，如果我们的工作 只是为了评估某人是否 站在我们面前的人，不管热不热， 而且是我们喜欢的那个人。 短暂互动 我们正在制作简单的二进制文件。 你我都会同意这样的判断。 大约三分之二的时间。就是这样。 这比五五开要好，但还差得很远。 100%。我觉得那实际上会 令很多人感到惊讶。有一个 双方存在相当程度的分歧。 这已经开始为接下来的发展奠定基础了。 对我们来说，不一定非要追求最高境界。 有吸引力的人，因为如果有的话 存在分歧，这意味着存在 你很有可能会去 对于这个人，我打算选择 那个人，它使情况趋于平衡。 竞争环境还算不错。我不认为 吸引力的影响一直存在 消失了，对吧？总会有去处 对某些人来说，这可能是一个不公平的竞争环境。 程度，但人们花费越多。 在一起的时间，彼此了解。 另一方面，它减少了其中一些，你 知道，呃，那些市场力量

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give the desirable people all the advantages. >> Yeah. The reason junior high school seemed so dreadful in my memory. I mean, I had a good time in junior high school, but it it was largely, at least for me, the fact that people in my peer group, cuz it was a pretty broad age range, were were still um among the guys were hitting puberty at different rates. >> Yeah. >> So, like a game of soccer that at one time was pretty even with respect to who could play well, like suddenly you're playing against what felt like a grown man. There's actually a kid in our town who I don't want to give up his name who I think he went on to I don't ever think he became a professional soccer player, but he was just >> he was like fully developed by the eighth grade. He was like facial hair and he was fast and he had like legs like tree trunks and he could move and I mean it was just >> completely dangerous to have him out on the field with the rest of us, right? And he was >> respected, adored, admired like and it was very context dependent. This was the other thing I was going to say. I think you and I are both scientists. So, coming up, you spent a lot of time in labs. >> Yeah. >> I never forget there was a romance in a neighboring lab um that none of us understood. Like none of us understood. >> That's funny. >> And I remember asking my friend who was in this pairing and he said the attraction for him, although she was also attractive, but the the the hook was her prowess at aloquotting. So there's a thing you do with antibodies and labs where they come in and you have to put them into the little things so that you know you freeze out a little bit and apparent >> really hard. >> Yeah. You get good at it. But apparently like he walked in one day and she had a bunch of these little tubes stuffed between her fingers and she was just aloquotting really quickly while talking and from that moment he was just like smitten. >> That's beautiful. >> And I'll say they both never heard an example this good. I was like her aloquatting process like it or prowess and I thought to myself like is this like tapping into something? They they actually have children. He's his professor. They have children together. They seem very happy. I think anyone would say they're both attractive people. But their pairing seemed like >> not predictable by any other external metrics. And the fact that something so specific was the hook. >> Yeah. >> And that opened up into what turned out to be a long-standing marriage with kids is kind of wild. It is. >> But is this uncommon? Because what you described before is kind of like this, like there's something unique that makes it feel like there's a special attraction that indicates something that opens up to a special discussion and then there's this >> kind of um intimacy, right, that they share >> around aloquading that was spawned by aloquading. I don't recommend folks run out and learn how to aloquat in order to like this is not a strategy. Um [laughter] but that's the thing. >> Thematically it might be, but um so what are your thoughts on something like that? Okay, this is an incredible example and I think if if we're talking about couples, I think most people would find this idea intuitive that if you know I ask somebody what is what is it that you love about your wife or what is it that you love about your husband? You know, you're going to get a bunch of if you get them talking for long enough, you'll get some idiosyncratic details. You'll get some stories. I mean, maybe if they're really forthcoming, they'll give you the in jokes and they'll explain the moments that made them feel something special for this person. I think what I'm suggesting is that those moments, the the the creation of a narrative with another person, it goes back earlier than we think. And that a lot of times what we're doing when we're trying to figure out if we're into somebody, yes, we look at how they look visually and we we take in all that information and it matters a lot. But we're also talking with them, forming little stories. If you have a little bit of good banter, that means when I see you at the party next week, I'm going to want to sit next to you and see if we can recreate that moment. And that's often where attraction is coming from. I think that's why the apps are so hard because it turns it into an interview where you're trying to impress other people with your traits. And again, traits are important, but it's like it it's not the life of the thing. The life of the thing is the little stories and moments that two people are sharing and and that's I think something that that people can be doing more with. >> I'd like to divide this process that we call dating, romance, relationships, etc. into some pieces that may or may not be the right way to segment it. So, so please um change any of what I'm about to, you know, toss out. We're talking about impressions. >> Yeah. >> That either seed or don't see desire for more time. So, interest >> and then that I'll just broadly separate with compatibility over time. >> Yeah. >> So, let's spend some time on impressions that lead to desire. Which ones are meaningful? Which ones aren't? Which ones can be a bit misleading? I think most people are probably more intuitive about those if they're really honest, like what they find, who they find attractive, >> who they'd be willing to admit they find attractive if you remove all the other social inputs. >> Yeah. >> And so on. But the compatibility over time piece is the one that is really hard. If you just look at the statistics on marriage, let alone the statistics on, you know, other relationships. >> It's not a bleak picture, but the numbers don't play out into if people get together and make the commitment. Most of the time it works out. It unfortunately doesn't seem to be that way or maybe who knows fortunately but so impressions leading to desire given that many of the people listening to this will they'll be thinking about their own history with their current partner or are seeking a partner or maybe not. What do the data say about what people are picking up on as really valid cues that drive real desire as opposed to the >> the BS about like, well, everyone else thought they were great or the great on paper kind of thing. The early phases especially are just naturally filled with a lot of uncertainty. And I think this is a bummer for a lot of people because it can feel like you're really into somebody or like they're really into me and then it turns on a dime. So part of that is about like searching for signals trying to resolve the uncertainty. And the problem is that it's not like, oh, if I get sufficient evidence that you're smart, that's going to do it. Or if I get sufficient evidence that you're really good at aloquotting, that's going to do it. What people are, I think, trying to do is they're trying to figure out like, do I feel enough of something for you that I want to continue this that I want to keep going? Yes. And but I don't want to act like cuz sometimes when people think about the spark, what they think is, "Oh, it's got to be there right away and I've already got to be feeling 100 for this person, right? I got to be at the top of the scale." That actually isn't what happens on average. Typically, if you if you look at what most relationships look like and you look back at the beginning, the the typical first impression is middling. That's how we feel at first. Middling. Just kind of I don't know, middle of the sky. That seemed all right. You know, it was fine. And then we interacted again. >> Not bad, not over the top. >> Not bad. Not Not over the top. And as we spend a little more time together, oh, like actually I find him pretty funny or I think he's really smart or um you know, I really like how good a listener he was. And I think what people are often trying to do is get enough moments that fit enough of these different trait categories that they think, well, you know, whatever other people say about this person, like with me, he seems like a pretty sensitive guy. with me, he seems pretty witty. With me, you know, like I actually think he's really hot when he does XYZ. And so if you accumulate enough of those, then you find yourself, you know, it's like you keep coming back. So that's how I think about it is this like slow accumulation of information. Sometimes people will encounter things like like the ick where there's one moment and then they tip over the edge the other way into feeling like I can't be with this person. >> Is that typically women who feel that about men? I mean do men describe that? >> I think yeah men have those experiences too. It is pretty underresarched. And one of the reasons why is because this whole phase I'm talking about is remarkably hard to study because we as researchers we're very good at how do you feel about somebody if you're looking at a picture or if you've hung out for like four minutes. I mean that's what a lot of the initial attraction paradigms look like. I like those paradigms. I study those paradigms myself. And then it's very easy to recruit couples and then see what happens to them. what explains why their relationships stay together and why they fall apart. But this period and it's it's my favorite thing to think about and it's also one of the most mysterious is Yeah, but what happened from like minute 10 to you know day 30 where now you were really determined to be in a relationship with this person and and that's a typical amount of time. it it usually doesn't happen instantaneously that people know right away, hey, no, this is it. I want to be with this person. It's that slow accumulation. And when we look at it, it's it's almost like you've got a window of uncertainty and it's slowly collapsing to a stable impression that people have of this person as they gather a little bit more information and a little bit more information. And what you just hope for is that as two people you're collapsing to a fairly stable impression that is both very positive of each other. And I think a large part that's how people get together >> and hopefully accurate too. >> Yeah. So the accuracy part is interesting because I mean you know I'm a psychologist. I'm a social
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把所有东西都给那些理想的人 优势。 是的。初中毕业的原因 在我的记忆中，那段日子似乎非常可怕。我是说， 我在初中生活得很愉快。 但至少对我而言，情况很大程度上是这样的。 我同龄人中的一些人， 因为年龄范围相当广， 我们仍然……嗯，在那些家伙中间…… 每个人进入青春期的速度都不一样。 是的。 所以，就像一场足球比赛，一开始…… 双方时间都相当接近。 可能会发挥得很好，就像突然间你就…… 与感觉像是成年人的对手比赛 男人。我们镇上确实有个孩子。 我不想透露他的名字 我想他接着说，我从来不认为 他成为了一名职业足球运动员。 但他只是 他就像完全发育成熟了一样 八年级。他就像胡须一样。 他跑得很快，腿也长得很快。 像树干一样，他可以移动，而我 意思是它只是 让他出去绝对危险。 和我们其他人一样，都在这片领域里，对吧？ 而他就是 受人尊敬、爱戴、钦佩，就像它一样 很大程度上取决于具体情况。这是 我还有另一件事想说。我认为 你我都是科学家。所以， 接下来，你花了很多时间在 实验室。 是的。 我永远不会忘记那段浪漫的时光 邻近的实验室，嗯，我们当中没有人。 明白了。好像我们谁都没明白似的。 那很好笑。 我还记得我问我的朋友，他是谁 在这种配对中，他说 她被他吸引，尽管她 也很有吸引力，但钩子…… 她最擅长的是分配份额。所以 有一种方法需要用到抗体。 还有他们进来的实验室，然后你就有 把它们放进小事里 你知道你会有点冷。 一点和明显 真的很难。 是的。你会越来越擅长。但显然 就像有一天他走进来，发现她…… 一堆塞满东西的小管子 她指间，她就那样 说话时快速地分摊 从那一刻起，他就变成了这样 着迷了。 那好美丽。 而且我可以说他们俩都没听说过 这个例子很好。我和她很像。 类似或擅长的催产过程 我当时心想，这是怎么回事？ 就像接入某种网络？他们 实际上已经有了孩子。他是他的 教授。他们育有子女。 他们看起来非常高兴。我认为任何人 我觉得她们俩都很有魅力。 人们。但他们的配对似乎是 无法通过任何其他外部因素预测 指标。而事实上，如此 具体细节是吸引人的地方。 是的。 而这最终演变成了…… 一段长久的婚姻，并育有子女。 有点疯狂。这是。 但这种情况不常见吗？因为你 之前描述的大概是这样的： 好像有什么独特的东西使 感觉好像有种特别的感觉。 吸引力表明某种东西 由此展开了一场特别的讨论， 然后还有这个 某种亲密关系，对吧，他们 分享 围绕着由……产生的 允许。我不建议大家跑步 出去学习如何种植枇杷，以便 这根本不是一种策略。嗯 [笑声] 但问题就在这里。 从主题上看或许如此，但是，那又怎样呢？ 你对类似的事情有什么想法？ 那？好吧，这真是太棒了 举例来说，我觉得如果我们在谈论…… 关于情侣，我想大多数人会 觉得这个想法很直观，如果你 我知道我问别人那是什么 你最爱你妻子的什么特质，或者…… 你最爱你丈夫的哪一点？你 你知道，你会收到很多“如果”之类的问题。 只要让他们聊足够长的时间， 你会了解到一些独特的细节。 你会听到一些故事。我的意思是，也许 如果他们真的愿意坦诚相待，他们会 他们会给你讲只有他们自己才懂的笑话，然后他们会 解释那些让他们有这种感觉的时刻 送给这个人一份特别的礼物。 我觉得我的意思是指…… 那些时刻，那些创造 与另一个人叙述，就是这样。 比我们预想的要早回来。而那 很多时候，我们做的事情是 想弄清楚我们是否喜欢 是的，我们会观察某人的外貌。 视觉上，我们把这一切都吸收了。 信息非常重要。但 我们也在和他们交谈，形成 小故事。如果你有一点点 好的玩笑，这意味着当我看到 下周的派对上，我打算…… 想坐在你旁边看看我们 可以重现那一刻。就是这样。 通常，吸引力就来源于此。我 我觉得这就是为什么这些应用这么难用的原因。 因为它会把它变成一次采访。 你试图给别人留下深刻印象 和你性格相同的人。再一次， 特质固然重要，但就像…… 这不是事物的本质。生活 关键在于那些小故事和 两个人共同经历的时刻 我认为这就是其中一点。 人们可以用它做更多的事情。 我想把这个过程分成几个部分： 称之为约会、浪漫、恋爱关系 等等，分成一些可能也可能不完整的部分。 这不是正确的细分方式。所以， 所以请帮我修改一下我写的任何内容。 准备，你知道，扔掉。是 谈论印象。 是的。 要么是种子，要么是看不到渴望 更多时间。所以，利息 然后我会大致分开来看。 具有长期兼容性。 是的。 那么，让我们花点时间谈谈印象吧。 这会导致欲望。哪些是 有意义吗？哪些不是？哪个 有些可能会有点误导性？我认为 大多数人可能更偏向直觉。 如果他们真的诚实的话，关于那些人， 他们发现了什么，他们找到了谁。 吸引人的， 他们愿意承认自己发现 如果去掉其他所有东西，它就很有吸引力了。 社会因素。 是的。 等等。但兼容性 真正重要的是那块钟表。 难的。如果你只看统计数据的话…… 婚姻问题，更不用说统计数据了。 关于，你知道的，其他关系。 这并非一幅黯淡的景象，但…… 数字并不能说明人们是否愿意参与。 聚在一起，做出承诺。 大多数时候都能成功。它 可惜，似乎并非如此。 或许是某种方法，或者谁知道呢，幸运的是…… 因此，由此产生的印象导致了欲望。 许多听众 他们会考虑这件事 他们与现任员工的过往经历 合作伙伴或正在寻找合作伙伴 或许不是。数据说明了什么？ 人们真正注意到的是…… 能够激发真实欲望的有效线索 相反的 关于其他人的那些废话 认为他们很棒，或者说很棒 纸质之类的东西。早期阶段 尤其是那些自然而然就充满的。 充满诸多不确定因素。我觉得 这对很多人来说都是件令人沮丧的事。 因为这会让人感觉你真的 喜欢上某人或者感觉他们真的 它一开始对我很好，但转眼间就变了个人。所以 其中一部分就像是在寻找 试图解决信号问题 不确定。问题在于…… 这并不是说，哦，如果我得到足够的 证明你很聪明，这才是关键。 去做这件事。或者如果我得到足够的 证明你真的很擅长 这样做就行了。什么 我认为人们试图做的是 他们试图弄清楚，我是否应该这样做。 我对你的感情如此深厚，以至于我 我想继续做这件事，我想…… 继续前进？是的。但我不想 表现得好像有时候人们会这样想 关于火花，他们认为是什么， “哦，它必须马上到那儿。” 我已经感觉自己状态百分百好了。 是这个人，对吧？我得去…… 最高级别。” 实际上并非如此。 平均而言会发生什么。通常情况下，如果 如果你仔细观察大多数情况，你会发现 人际关系看起来是什么样的，而你看起来是什么样的 回到最初，典型的 第一印象一般。就是这样 我们最初的感觉。中等。就是那种感觉 我不知道，大概在半空中吧。那 看起来还不错。你知道，一切都很好。 然后我们又互动了一次。 还不错，但也不算太好。 不错。不，一点也不夸张。而当我们 多花点时间在一起吧，哦。 其实我觉得他挺搞笑的。 我觉得他真的很聪明，或者……你 我知道，我真的很喜欢你这么善于倾听。 他是。我认为人们是 通常试图做的就是获得足够的时间 符合这些不同特征的程度足够高 他们认为的类别，嗯，你 我知道，不管别人怎么说 这个人，就像我一样，他似乎 他是个相当敏感的人。他和我在一起。 看起来挺机智的。你知道，我 我真的觉得他很帅 当他做 XYZ 时。所以如果你 积累到足够多的那种东西后，你 找到你自己，你知道，就像你 继续回来。这就是我的想法。 这就像缓慢积累一样。 信息。 有时人们会遇到一些事情 就像那种恶心的地方只有一个 片刻之后，它们便倾覆而下。 另一种情况则会让我感觉自己做不到 和这个人在一起。 通常是女性会有这种感觉吗？ 关于男人？我的意思是，男人会这样描述吗？ 我想是的，男人也有这样的经历。 也。这方面的研究还很不足。和 其中一个原因是因为…… 我所说的整个阶段是 非常难研究，因为我们…… 研究人员我们非常擅长如何 如果你对某人有感觉， 看着照片，或者如果你已经挂了一幅画。 大概出去了四分钟。我的意思是，那是 最初的吸引力究竟有多大？ 范式看起来像这样。我喜欢那些 范式。我研究这些范式 我。然后就很容易了 招募几对夫妇，然后看看会发生什么 这种情况也会发生在他们身上。是什么解释了为什么他们的 维系感情的原因 散架。但这段时期，而且是 这是我最喜欢思考的事情。 它也是最神秘的之一。 是的，但是接下来发生了什么？ 从第 10 分钟到你知道的第 30 天，现在在哪里 你真的下定决心要进入一个 与此人的关系以及 这是通常所需的时间。它它 通常不会立即发生 人们马上就知道，嘿，不， 就是这样。我想和他在一起 人。正是这种缓慢的积累。和 当我们仔细观察时，它几乎是 就像你面前有一扇充满不确定性的窗口。 它正慢慢地崩溃成一个稳定的状态。 人们对此的印象 随着人们聚集在一起，人数还会增加。 信息及更多内容 信息。而你所期盼的是什么？ 也就是说，你们两个人正在崩溃。 给人留下相当稳定的印象，即 两人都对彼此评价很高。我 我认为这在很大程度上就是人们获得……的方式。 一起 希望也能准确无误。 是的。所以，准确度部分是 有趣的是，你知道我是…… 一位心理学家。我是一个社交达人

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psychologist and so social psychologists are big into well your perception is your reality and boy do you see a lot of evidence especially in relationships that people are biased when it comes to their romantic relationships >> in what sense >> it can happen in ways like you know everybody kind of agrees that your partner's a jerk but you genuinely don't think they're a jerk and when they're with you they don't seem like a jerk so any kind measure I would take your perception of, you know, your partner versus everybody else's perception. You would seem to be horribly positively biased for your partner. The question is whether you're wrong and I land on the side of I mean from your perspective you're not to argue that it would be better to listen to the consensus that your partner is a jerk kind it's sort of like um you're arguing for like a sleeper effect like there's wisdom in what other people know that you don't see. The evidence for that is actually not not great. It's it I'm it it could be and I'm sure it happens sometimes, but what usually happens in relationships is that people's own impressions and perceptions tend to be the major driver. Now, that can go in the other way, too, because we might all agree this person would be the most amazing partner to be with, and yet you've now gotten to the point in this relationship where you don't see it anymore, and you can't unsee the negative things you've seen. And so, that relationship can be very hard to salvage. The statement has been made by someone I know and trust about all things in life, all things in life, not just relationships, but certainly including them, that If people just treated their taste in people, in music, in art, in experiences the same way they treated their taste in food, everyone would be a lot better off. >> Meaning, if one has the impression that they really like something, they really like this person, then just go for it. I mean, unless there's some sort of danger they're not aware of, right? >> Okay. Okay. And which and we'll talk about consensus, communicating danger, separate separate issue, but it crosses into this online dating thing based on a lot of conversations I've had with young men and women. But music, you hear it, you either like it or you don't. We don't tend to have a hard time defending our stance on those things. But when it comes to relationships, it's almost like we're many people are walking around with a little or a lot of that junior high narrative in their in their mind. >> Not necessarily be with somebody that they can't stand because everyone else thinks they're great. I think that's pretty rare. Probably happens, but it's pretty rare. But at these early stages that you study, that they're navigating that process in a way where they're not in tune with their own taste. they're integrating all this other information in a way that's not helpful. It's not protecting them. In fact, it's it's just clouding the signal. It's noise, >> right? In the signal to noise model, like it's noise. It's just pure noise. >> And as a consequence, >> people are wasting their time and other people's time. >> Yeah. >> And I don't believe everyone's trying to waste each other's time. It just seems that we're conditioned to do this. Yeah. And I will say it does take a pretty strong person to say, "Listen, I know that's what you see. I know that's what they say, but like this person's great. Like they're right for me." And when people do that in general, people tend to back off. >> And of course, there's >> Shakespeare about this, right? But that tends to be cultural pressure of like, "No, you two can't be together or the parents don't want her or one set of parents." I mean some of the greatest romances have been born out of that fu to the to the elders to the community but this is a little different. Yes. You know, it's a tricky thing to navigate because I I think one of the best situations to end up in is where you're in a relationship and let's say it's a new relationship and your friends around you basically think, you know, we're happy for you and we're going to celebrate you and, you know, we're going to celebrate this relationship. We support you. We just wouldn't be terribly interested in this person ourselves. That's the ideal, right? Where it's not exceptionally competitive. You're not worried about your friends trying to poach your partner away, but at the same time, they're supportive of the relationship because that support from friends and family, it is important. Like, it certainly shapes how people feel. there's a way to navigate that that doesn't make it a you know like I'm glad you I'm glad you like my girlfriend but like don't like her too much please. You want to kind of try to find that balance there. And that's a tricky thing. I mean I think this is a lot of what people are trying to navigate in adolescence. They're trying to figure out like how can I be part of a friend group and have a romantic relationship and navigate the complexities that come with that. I mean, I vividly remember these like junior high, early high school experiences of dating somebody, but also your friends are into this person. And actually, it was a relationship where my girlfriend at the time broke up with me, starts dating my best friend. We're all friends now. It's all fine now. And it's like at this moment that I discover evolutionary psychology, that I discover this narrative. And it just felt like such a double-edged sword cuz how wonderful is it to think about how people have been navigating these challenges, ex-girlfriends breaking up with you for your best friend. This has been happening for tens of thousands of years. Like I'm not alone. I'm not the first person to experience this. And then to also read at the same time, oh my god, this reflects something true about my deep underlying value. This is kind of scary. So those two things together, weirdly, were what got me hooked on this. The the feeling like evolutionary psychology is fascinating and really bleak at the same time. >> Yeah, I agree. Uh I was going to say brutal. I'm sorry you had to go through that. Although I'm glad you're all friends. I think it happens. It's all good. probably not to everyone, but I I can remember similar experiences where you're just like, "Oh man, what a gut punch." And part of the maturational process is um >> realizing like, okay, they might be better suited and they'll be someone for me. And >> honestly, they were better suited for each other. >> All right. All right. I have a question about the science or how to study these sorts of things. So, if I set aside my science hat and I say, "All right, >> you can study this stuff, but wait, >> if we're talking about a a kind of unique hook, like let's just assume the person the people are within the range of attractiveness. Again, I hate this quantitative thing, but they think the other person's attractive, they're they they're dating because they want to find someone, right? They're not resistant to commitment. They're looking for for a partner. And the number of histories that people are bringing to that is infinite or near infinite. So let's say the hook is listen one person had a hard past based on um an abusive household. The other person is really gentle. They had a great past and and the person feels very safe in that. Right? We always think about the trauma bond, right? Which is an unfortunate thing that does seem to happen. But it could also be both people had difficult pasts. you know, parents with addiction issues or mental health issues and they can relate. Okay, that's one example. The other is uh we both value X, we both value Y. And so the the unique glue, >> yeah, >> is near infinite, right? So the question I have and this isn't a challenge, it's just a genuine um curiosity is how do you study this process then? Because what are the universals of what is it what people define as some kind of um like lock and key that they didn't know they were looking for that that lock and key combination and then they go oh this feels unique and the reason I asked this is because I want to frame the the science but also I want to know to what extent being aware of what's critical to oneself is important in this process. >> Does that make sense? There's a lot of words there, but basically like how well one knows themselves can often help lead to better choices in in partner choice. >> And so people go know like gosh, I I really really would like someone that I could feel understood around this or feel really safe around this or make them feel really safe around that. With any relationship, it's almost like you have to hold these two seemingly contradictory truths at the same time. One is that >> no two people in the history of the world have experienced what we're experiencing right now. And yet there are broad general principles that we can point to that can explain some of the dynamics of every romantic relationship that has ever existed. So when it comes to broad principles, I love the attachment framework. I mean, what's fascinating about attachment is that this is just as evolutionary as all the other evolutionary theories you've heard about online. It's just a different evolutionary theory. But this perspective suggests that we are creatures that form bonds with each other. We essentially crave closeness, intimacy, support. We thrive when we get it. We're more likely to recover. We
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心理学家，以及社会心理学家 非常重视你的感知是 你的现实，你会看到很多…… 证据，尤其是在人际关系方面 人们在这个问题上存在偏见 他们的恋爱关系 在什么意义上 你知道，这种情况可能会以各种方式发生。 大家都基本同意你的 伴侣是个混蛋，但你真的不这么认为 觉得他们是混蛋，当他们 跟你在一起，他们看起来不像个混蛋。 任何措施我都会采取你的 你对伴侣的看法 与其他人的看法相反。你 看起来简直糟透了 有偏见的 送给你的伴侣。 问题是你是否错了？ 我落在了你的一边。 你没有那种视角 认为这样做会更好 听取大家的共识，你的 伴侣是个混蛋，有点像…… 嗯，你是在为一个沉睡者辩护吗？ 就像在其他方面也蕴含着智慧一样 人们都知道你看不见。 实际上并没有证据支持这一点。 不太好。就是它，我就是它，它可能是 我相信这种情况偶尔会发生，但是 恋爱关系中通常发生的事情是 人们自身的印象和 认知往往是主要驱动因素。 当然，反过来也一样。 因为我们可能都会同意这个人 会是最棒的合作伙伴 然而，你现在已经到了…… 在这段关系中，你处于这样一个节点： 再也看不到了，你也看不到了。 忘记你所看到的负面事物。 因此，这种关系可能非常 难以挽救。该声明已发布 由我认识和信任的人制作 人生中的一切，人生中的一切， 不仅是人际关系，当然 包括他们在内的 如果人们只是对待 他们对人、音乐、艺术的品味 在经历中，他们以同样的方式对待他人。 他们对食物的口味，每个人都会…… 情况好多了。 意义， 如果有人觉得他们 他们真的很喜欢某样东西。 如果是这个人，那就大胆去做吧。我 除非存在某种危险，否则就没什么问题。 他们对此毫不知情，对吧？ 好的。好的。然后我们再讨论。 关于共识、沟通危险 虽然是两个独立的问题，但它跨越了…… 进入这个基于网络约会的领域 我和很多年轻人进行过对话。 男女。但是音乐，你听得到， 要么喜欢，要么不喜欢。我们 防守起来通常不会很困难 我们对这些事情的立场。但当它 谈到人际关系，几乎就像 很多人在附近走动 带一点或很多那种初级 他们脑海中充满了引人入胜的故事情节。 不一定非要和某人在一起 他们站不住，因为其他人都一样。 认为他们很棒。我认为那是 非常罕见。可能发生，但…… 非常罕见。但在这些早期阶段 你学习的，他们正在探索的 这个过程以一种他们不参与的方式进行 符合他们自己的口味。它们是 整合所有这些信息 这种方式并无益处。它不是 保护他们。事实上，它只是 信号模糊不清。这是噪音， 正确的？在信噪比模型中， 就像噪音一样。纯粹是噪音。 因此， 人们在浪费时间和其他 人们的时间。 是的。 而且我不认为每个人都在试图 浪费彼此的时间。感觉就是这样 我们被训练成这样做。是的。 而且我得说，这确实需要相当多的时间。 强的 有人会说：“听着，我知道那是……” 你所看到的。我知道他们就是这么想的。 比如说，这个人很棒。喜欢 它们很适合我。”当人们 一般来说，这样做人们往往会支持。 离开。 当然，还有 莎士比亚也曾谈到过这个问题，对吧？但是…… 这往往是文化压力，比如： “不，你们两个不能在一起，否则……” 父母不想要她，或者其中一组 父母们。”我指的是一些最伟大的父母。 浪漫爱情就此诞生。 致长者，致社区 但这有点不同。是的。你 我知道，这很难把握。 因为我认为其中最好的之一 你最终会陷入怎样的境地？ 假设你们处于一段恋爱关系中…… 新恋情和你的朋友们 你基本上会想，你知道，我们是 为你高兴，我们打算 为你庆祝，你知道，我们要走了 为了庆祝这段关系。我们 支持你。我们根本不会 我对这个人非常感兴趣。 我们自己。那才是理想状态，对吧？ 除非特别特殊 竞争的。你并不担心 你的朋友试图挖走你的 离开伴侣，但与此同时， 他们支持这段关系。 因为来自朋友的支持和 家庭很重要。就像，它 当然，这会影响人们的感受。 有办法解决这个问题。 但这并不意味着我很高兴。 我很高兴你喜欢我的女朋友，但是 请不要太喜欢她。你 想努力找到这种平衡。 那里。那可真是一件棘手的事。我是说 我认为这就是很多人的想法。 努力适应青春期。 他们正试图弄清楚如何 我可以加入一个朋友团体吗？ 一段浪漫关系以及如何应对 由此产生的各种复杂情况。我 我的意思是，我清楚地记得这些，比如 初中，高中早期 经历 和某人约会，但也是你的 朋友们都很喜欢这个人。和 实际上，那是一段我与他人的关系。 当时的女朋友和我分手了， 开始和我最好的朋友约会。我们都是 现在是朋友了。现在一切都好了。而且是 就像我此刻发现的那样 我发现的进化心理学 这个故事。感觉就像 这是一把双刃剑，因为…… 想想这些真是太棒了！ 人们一直在应对这些问题 挑战，前女友分手 和你在一起，就像你最好的朋友一样。这有 这种情况已经持续了数万年。 年。感觉自己不再孤单。我不是 第一个经历这一切的人。和 然后还要同时阅读，哦 我的天啊，这反映了一些真相。 关于我深层的内在价值。这是 有点吓人。所以这两件事 奇怪的是，正是这两件事让我着迷。 上瘾了。那种感觉就像 进化心理学令人着迷 同时又非常凄凉。 是的，我同意。呃，我本来想说 野蛮。很抱歉你经历了这些。 那。虽然我很高兴你们都在这里 朋友们。我觉得这种情况会发生。这一切都是 好的。可能不是每个人都这样认为，但我 可以回忆起类似的经历 你就会想，“哦，天哪，这肚子真大。” 一拳。”以及成熟的一部分 过程是嗯 意识到，好吧，他们可能是 更合适，他们会成为合适的人选 我。和 说实话，他们更适合…… 彼此。 好的。好的。我有个问题 关于科学或如何研究这些 诸如此类的事情。所以，如果我把我的 戴上科学帽，我说：“好的， 你可以研究这些东西，但是等等， 如果我们谈论的是一种 独特的钩子，比如我们假设 这些人都在范围内 吸引力。我再次讨厌这一点。 虽然是量化的，但他们认为 对方很有魅力，他们是…… 他们约会是因为他们想找到 肯定有人吧？它们对……没有抵抗力 承诺。他们正在寻找一个 伙伴。以及历史的数量 人们带来的是 无限或接近无限。比如说 钩子是这样的：听着，一个人经历了一段艰难的时期。 过去的经历源于一个充满虐待的家庭。 对方真的很温柔。他们 这个人过去经历辉煌，而且…… 感觉很安全。正确的？我们 时刻想着创伤纽带， 正确的？这真是一件令人遗憾的事。 这种情况似乎确实会发生。但这可能 也可能两人都有过艰难的过去。 你知道，有成瘾问题的父母 或者存在心理健康问题，他们可能会 涉及。好的，这是一个例子。这 另一个是，嗯，我们都重视 X，我们俩 值 Y。因此，独特的粘合剂， 是的， 接近无穷大，对吧？所以问题是…… 我已经做到了，这根本不是什么挑战，而是…… 我只是真心好奇，该怎么做？ 你研究的是这个过程吗？因为 什么是普遍存在的事物？它是什么？ 人们所定义的某种“嗯……” 就像他们不知道的锁和钥匙一样 他们正在寻找那把锁， 按键组合，然后他们就说，哦，这个 感觉很特别，这也是我问这个问题的原因。 因为我想把这个框起来。 但我同时也想知道，对于科学，我究竟想知道什么 了解什么对……至关重要 在这个过程中，自身的重要性不容忽视。 这样说得通吗？有很多 文字部分虽然有，但基本上就像是说得好不好。 了解自己的人往往能够起到领导作用 在伴侣选择方面有更好的选择。 所以人们就会知道，天哪，我我 我真的很想要一个我 可能会觉得被理解了，或者 感觉在这附近真的很安全，或者让 他们觉得在那里很安全。和 任何关系，几乎就像你 必须持有这两个看似 同时包含相互矛盾的真理。 一是 历史上没有两个人…… 世界各国都经历过我们正在经历的。 此刻正在经历。然而，那里 我们可以遵循的广泛原则 这一点可以解释部分原因 每段恋爱关系中的动态 曾经存在过。所以当它来临时…… 我喜欢大方向的原则。 依恋框架。我的意思是，那是什么？ 依恋最迷人的地方在于…… 这与所有其他进化过程一样具有进化意义。 你还听说过哪些其他进化论？ 关于网络。只是不同而已。 进化论。但是这样 从某种角度来看，我们似乎是 与彼此建立联系的生物 其他。我们本质上渴望亲密关系， 亲密关系，支持。我们茁壮成长的时候，我们能够 它。我们更有可能康复。我们

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英文原文
sleep better. We get all of these benefits from close attached relationships. But for some people or at some points in their lives, we can struggle to have those kinds of relationships sometimes because we become too anxious about them. We need them a little too much. We become uncomfortable in our own skin or we tip the other way. We become very avoidant. We become overly independent. We become convinced that we really don't need anybody else. These are broad attachment dynamics that people will go through their whole lives having to navigate. A lot of people have probably heard about like the you can have an anxious attachment style or an avoidant attachment style and all of that is true. But one thing we know today from studying more couples and getting better at studying couples over longer periods of time is you realize that boy people's attachment orientations really can change. So somebody can come into a relationship with an avoidant trauma-filled past, but with enough time with the right kind of person, again sharing their unique bond, which maybe science will never crack, but they know all about it. That person will start to become less and less avoidant with time. They'll become more secure. They'll get more of those physiological benefits out of the relationship. they'll get more of the support related benefits out of the relationship and that can in effect turn somebody into a more secure person. So the these are the attachment lessons that I often point to and I think they're they're useful for at least helping me remember that tension between like yeah anxiety and avoidance. Two very broad processes that are always happening behind the scenes and yet the way it unfolds for any one particular couple. It's always going to be this weird unique combination of stories and in jokes and little moments that scaffold up to hopefully, you know, help somebody become more secure eventually. I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, AG1. AG1 is a vitamin mineral probiotic drink that also includes prebiotics and adaptogens. I discovered AG1 way back in 2012, long before I ever had a podcast, and I've been taking it every day since. The reason I started taking AG1 and the reason I still take it every day is because AG1 is, to my knowledge, the highest quality and most comprehensive of the foundational nutritional supplements on the market. AG1 is designed to support things like gut health, immune health, and overall energy. And it does so by helping to fill any gaps that you might have in your daily nutrition. I get asked pretty much all the time, "If I could only take one supplement, what should that supplement be?" And my answer is always AG1. It has just been so helpful for supporting all aspects of physical health, mental health, and performance. If you would like to try AG1, you can go to drink AG1.com/huberman to get a special offer. For a limited time, AG1 is giving away a free bottle of their new Omega-3 co-enzyme Q10 product. Omega-3 and co-enzyme Q10 are known to support cardiovascular health, cellular health, and energy, generally, brain health, and much more. I personally take them both every day. Again, go to drinkaga1.com/huberman to get a free bottle of the new Omega-3 co-enzyme Q10 with your first AG1 subscription. Seems to me that barring um again like an emotional or physical safety issue, >> the less that couples are talking to other people besides a trained >> therapist, if they choose to do that, maybe not even doing that about their relationship, probably the more protected their relationship is. So that's interesting. >> The the darts of uh envious people. >> Um >> the unhelpful positive comments from people, right? Because there could be instances where a relationship is really flagging and and >> someone doesn't disclose that and they they don't really understand what's going on and were they not to share that then, you know, everyone's getting all this positive input and they think, well, I think this is just how it's supposed to go. >> So there's the suffering and silence piece. Y >> we want to I I don't think that's good. But there's the kind of um going out for external assessment piece. And as I say this, I you know it's it's funny because we the year at UC Davis and I did my PhD there. I was just remembering like when you pick projects in graduate school, you get some consensus about what's a good project. But so much of becoming a good scientist is kind of learning to put up the middle finger and just keep going as the the sort of pressure test of doing science is people going, "Well, that's is that really that interesting?" And you don't really know how much to pay attention to it. And it kind of pays to be a little bit bulldogish and just go, "Yeah, I don't know like and just ignore it and just keep going." I can say this is also true in any kind of creative endeavor or public facing life. Like it doesn't make good adaptive sense to pay too much attention but nobody wants to be the person that like steps in it or does something really stupid. But in relationships when if something feels good >> maybe >> we shouldn't be going out and getting you know putting our finger in the wind to get input. So it's fascinating because I mentioned earlier that right the the extent to which you feel at least like the people around you have your relationships back that's a useful thing but I think that probably isn't happening through a process of yeah like pseudotherapy I want to talk to my friends about my relationship or at least to the extent that that is happening I bet you're right that has some real risks. I think probably the good version of this process or the one that I would advocate for comes from research looking at like couple friends or like double date nights. So, I'm not asking you for input on my relationship, but in effect, I'm asking you and maybe your partner to experience our relationship in real time by hanging out together, the four of us. And so that can often feel like validation without explicitly asking for it. And I think that can often be a very good thing. And there's research showing that, you know, generally couples who feel like they have couple friends and are embedded in networks like that that that generally tends to go well on average. Um so yeah, I would think about it that way. It's like you can feel that you have the support of the people around you without directly asking for their assessment of your relationship because the reality is other people don't know. And this is hard as a judge because when I encounter couples and I have friends who are in relationships, it is so tempting to look at that relationship and think like, well, man, like she shouldn't have done that or I don't know if if I were her, I wouldn't stand for this. But I'm not in that relationship. So unless you are a therapist and they're coming to you for therapy, I find it useful to try to resist that impulse because a relationship is this vast deep store of information that two people have and often we're not privy to what's really going on there. >> I'm going back to junior high school again and I can remember at this one game I hope this isn't dramatic. >> No, no, it's not. Not at all. But we had this uh all girls school in our in our town, Castilea School, which was a boarding school. And so their dances were the best because they'd invite people from other schools, but all the >> guys were really excited to go, right? Cuz the numbers were really like worked out really well in our favorite women and and and boys and girls in our school, right? Would go to these dances. But that means you just have like an outsized pool of so everyone got someone to dance with at some point. This is what mattered in the seventh grade, right? But there were these people I had to say there were these individuals who were not going through the admittedly like tense challenge of >> first dance, first slow dance. This was before phones and it was tense then too. >> And they weren't doing any of that. What were they doing? They were running around telling people about who was doing what and who was doing that. And I remember thinking at the time, I mean, I'm no psychologist then or now, but thinking like they're avoiding the whole thing. Yeah, this is like going to a soccer game and instead of playing soccer, they're like critiquing people from the sidelines cuz it's a lot easier to do that than to actually get out there and risk and risk miss, you know, like being the goalie that lets the the winning shot through. And I remember thinking like these people are really uh really corrosive. >> Um, one or two in particular, I don't know what ever became of them. Hopefully, they're doing well in their lives. They got over this. But >> those people exist throughout life. >> Yeah. >> Meaning they're rarely the people that are happy in their own relationship life. Now, I have to say it's probably a Y chromosome link disorder, but I assume that my friends who are in male friends who are in relationship. If they're still in the relationship that it's going great. >> That's funny. >> There's not a lot of feedback. Like there's not a whole lot of feedback exchange. That said, if something were really like really off, I assume that they would bring it up, but probably not to me. like there's I do think that there's probably a sex difference here and these things are changing now, but I think that there's not a lot of sitting around talking about how well or poorly the relationship is going. And so like, you know, you ask about somebody's spouse like, "How are they doing?" And they go, "Yeah, great." Like we did this this weekend. There's not a whole lot of, "Yeah, we we had this one moment of exchange that was kind of sticky. Can I get your input on it?" Like that's not happening. That's just not happening. At least not in my life. I'm glad you brought up these gender differences because I think you're hitting on one that at least again as a relationships researcher I would sit here and say I
中文译文
睡得更好。我们得到了所有这些 从亲密关系中获益 人际关系。 但对于某些人来说，或者在某些时候 他们的生活，我们可能难以拥有。 那种关系有时 因为我们对……过于焦虑 他们。我们对它们的依赖程度有点太高了。我们 我们开始对自己的皮肤感到不自在或 我们则倾向于另一边。我们变得非常 回避型。我们变得过于独立。 我们开始确信我们其实并不 还需要其他人吗？ 这些是广泛的依恋动态， 人们将经历他们的一生 需要导航。很多人都有 你可能听说过，比如你可以 具有焦虑型依恋风格或 回避型依恋类型及所有 没错。但我们知道一件事。 今天通过研究更多夫妇和 越来越擅长研究夫妻关系 时间越长，你就越会意识到这一点。 那个男孩对人们的依恋 性取向真的会改变。所以 有人可以进入一段关系 有着充满创伤的逃避型人格，但 只要有足够的时间和合适的人 再次分享他们之间独特的联系 或许科学永远也无法破解的谜题 但他们对此了如指掌。 那个人会开始变得不那么 随着时间的推移，回避行为会减少。他们会 变得更加安全。他们会得到更多 这些生理益处来自 关系。他们会得到更多 支持相关福利 关系，而这实际上可能会改变 将某人变成一个更有安全感的人。所以 这些是依恋课程 我经常指出这一点，而且我认为 它们至少在……方面是有用的 帮助我记住那种紧张关系 比如焦虑和回避。二 非常广泛的过程，总是 幕后发生的事情，然而 对于任何特定个体而言，事情的展开方式都各不相同。 夫妻。永远都会是这样。 故事的奇特组合 在玩笑和小插曲中 搭建脚手架，希望能有所帮助。 最终，有人会变得更加自信。 我想稍作休息。 感谢我们的赞助商 AG1。 AG1 是一种 维生素矿物质益生菌饮料 还包含益生元和适应原。 我早在 2012 年就发现了 AG1，很久以前。 在我拥有播客之前，我就已经…… 从那以后，我每天都在服用。这 我开始服用 AG1 的原因 我每天仍然服用它的原因是 因为据我所知，AG1 是 质量最高，内容最全面 基础营养 市面上的保健品。 AG1 是 旨在支持肠道等功能 健康、免疫健康和整体健康 活力。它通过以下方式实现这一点： 填补你可能存在的任何空白 您的每日营养摄入。我经常被问到这个问题。 很多时候，“如果我能接受……” 一种补充剂，应该是什么？ 补充剂是什么？”我的回答总是 AG1。它真的帮了我很大的忙。 支持身体的各个方面 健康、心理健康和表现。 如果您想尝试 AG1，可以前往 饮用 AG1.com/huberman 获得特别优惠。有限 AG1 正在免费赠送一瓶 他们新推出的 Omega-3 辅酶 Q10 产品。 Omega-3 和辅酶 Q10 是 已知对心血管健康有益 细胞健康和整体能量水平 大脑健康等等。我 我每天都亲自服用这两样东西。 再次访问 drinkaga1.com/huberman 免费获得一瓶新款 Omega-3 辅酶 Q10 与您的第一个 AG1 订阅。 在我看来，除了……嗯，再次…… 情感或身体安全问题 夫妻之间交流越少 除了受过训练的人之外的其他人 治疗师，如果他们选择这样做的话。 或许他们甚至都不会那样做。 关系，可能更多 他们的关系得到了保护。所以 那很有意思。 那些嫉妒之人的飞镖。 嗯 来自 是人，对吧？因为可能存在 有些时候，一段关系真的 标记和 有人没有透露这一点，而且他们 他们其实并不了解什么是 事情还在继续，难道他们不分享这些吗？ 然后，你知道，每个人都得到了所有 有了这些积极的反馈，他们会想： 嗯，我觉得事情就是这样。 应该走了。 所以，这里只有苦难和沉默。 片。是 我们想……我觉得那样不好。 但也有那种……嗯，出去玩的 外部评估部分。正如我所说 你知道，这很有趣，因为 我们在加州大学戴维斯分校待了一年，我完成了博士学位。 那里。我当时只是在回忆，就像…… 研究生阶段你可以选择研究项目， 对什么是……达成了一些共识 好项目。但成为一名…… 优秀的科学家正在学习如何 竖起中指，然后继续 就像压力测试一样 科学研究就是人们说：“嗯， “那真的有那么有趣吗？” 你其实并不清楚该给多少。 注意它。而且这样做还是有回报的。 有点像斗牛犬一样，而且只是 去，“是啊，我不知道，就像……” 别理它，继续前进。我可以 假设这在任何情况下也成立 创意活动或公众生活。 这似乎不符合适应性逻辑。 过于关注，但没人 想成为喜欢迈步的人 在其中做或做一些非常愚蠢的事情。 但在恋爱关系中，如果发生某些事情…… 感觉真好 或许 我们不应该出去买东西 你知道，我们只是在随风飘荡。 获取输入。所以这很吸引人。 因为我之前提到过这一点，对吧？ 你的感受程度 至少不像你周围的人那样。 恢复你的人际关系，这很有用。 但我觉得那可能不是真的。 发生于以下过程中 对，就像伪疗法一样，我想谈谈。 跟朋友们谈起我的恋情 至少在某种程度上是这样 我敢肯定你说得对，这确实发生了。 确实存在一些风险。我觉得可能是 这个过程的良好版本或那个版本 我所提倡的来自 研究对象类似于一对朋友 或者像双人约会之夜。所以，我不是 我想请教一下大家对我感情关系的看法。 但实际上，我是在问你，也许 让您的伴侣体验我们的 通过实时互动来建立关系 我们四个人一起。所以， 常常会让人感觉像是得到了认可，而无需 明确提出要求。我觉得 这通常是一件非常好的事。和 有研究表明，你知道， 通常情况下，那些感觉自己像情侣的人 有几个朋友，并且融入其中 像这样的网络通常 总体来说，进展往往比较顺利。嗯，是的。 我会那样想。它是 就像你能感觉到你拥有 无需他人支持，也能获得周围人的支持。 直接询问 为了让他们评估你 因为现实是，这种关系是 其他人并不知道。这就是 作为一名法官，我很难过，因为当我遇到 情侣们，我的朋友也都在。 人际关系，总是让人忍不住想要去看。 在那段关系中，你会想， 唉，她真不该这么做。 或者，我不知道如果我是她，我会怎么做。 我绝不会容忍这种事。但我并不在场。 那段关系。所以，除非你是…… 治疗师，他们来找你是为了…… 我觉得尝试接受治疗很有用。 抵制这种冲动，因为 关系是这浩瀚而深邃的宝库。 两个人拥有的信息以及 我们往往并不了解事情的真相。 那里正在发生什么。 我要回初中了。 再一次，我还记得这件事。 游戏，我希望这不会造成太大影响。 不，不，不是这样的。一点也不。但我们有 这所呃，我们学校的全女子学校 卡斯蒂利亚镇，卡斯蒂利亚学校，那是一所 寄宿学校。于是，他们的舞蹈开始了。 他们是最好的，因为他们会邀请 其他学校的人，但所有 大家都很兴奋，对吧？ 因为这些数字真的奏效了。 在我们最喜欢的女性身上表现出色 还有我们学校的男孩和女孩 学校，对吧？会去参加这些舞会。 但这意味着你只有像一个 泳池太大了，所以每个人都能找到人。 在某个时候和她一起跳舞。这是 七年级时什么最重要？ 正确的？但我身边也有这些人。 可以说，有这些人 我们没有经历承认的 就像紧张的挑战 第一支舞，第一支慢舞。这是 在手机普及之前，社会氛围也很紧张。 但他们什么也没做。什么 他们在做什么？他们正在奔跑 四处告诉人们谁是谁 做了什么？是谁做的？我 记得当时我在想，我的意思是， 我当时不是心理学家，现在也不是，但是 他们觉得自己好像在回避整个 事物。是的，这就像去…… 足球比赛，而不是玩游戏 足球，他们就像在批评人一样 从旁观者的角度看问题，因为这样容易得多。 这样做比真正离开要好得多 那里有风险，也有错过风险的风险，你知道的。 就像是守门员，让对方…… 制胜一击。我还记得 觉得这些人真的很…… 腐蚀性极强。 嗯，特别是其中一两个，我不认识。 知道他们后来怎么样了。 希望他们一切顺利。 生命。他们克服了这件事。但 这样的人一生中总会遇到。 是的。 这意味着他们很少是那些人 他们对自己的关系感到满意 生活。现在，我不得不说这可能是一个 Y 染色体连锁疾病，但我假设 我的男性朋友们 处于恋爱关系中的人。 如果他们仍然保持恋爱关系 一切进展顺利。 那很好笑。 反馈意见不多。喜欢 反馈并不多。 交换。也就是说，如果某件事是 真的感觉很不对劲，我猜是这样。 他们会提起这件事，但可能不会。 大部头书。我觉得确实有这种感觉。 这里可能存在性别差异。 现在这些事情正在发生变化，但我 我觉得坐着的时间不多。 围绕着谈论做得好或不好 这段关系正在走向终结。所以就像， 你知道，你问起某人的…… 配偶会问：“他们过得怎么样？”和 他们说：“是啊，太好了。”就像我们做的那样 本周末。不多。 “是的，我们有过那么一刻……” 那次交流有点棘手。我可以吗？ 想听听你的意见？”好像这不是问题似的。 正在发生。这根本不可能发生。在 至少在我的人生中没有。我很高兴你 提出了这些性别差异 因为我觉得你正中下怀。 至少在人际关系方面， 作为一名研究员，我会坐在这里说我

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think this is the big one. And the big one is that women generally are better at cultivating social support from all corners of their lives, not just their romantic partner. Whereas for men, it's largely their romantic partner. That's where they're getting most of their support, intimacy needs met. Probably the person who at least for a while is mostly in their corner. And this is why you see across the full range of the arc of a relationship that men are always a little bit more eager than women. >> Eager in what sense? >> Eager in in all the ways. I want to be in this relationship in the first place. I'm more likely to say I love you first. I'm more I'm more likely to want to be exclusive. I'm more likely to want to take things to the next level. >> Men are more willing to do that. >> Men's counter current to all this stuff about men being non-committal. >> Yeah. Right. So like I don't uh I don't this is what there's like new review papers on this that are really compelling and it's like kind of the same effect size across the board which is how we talk about you know how big is the sex difference? You know, it's it's mediumsiz, but it's just right there all the way through through breaking up. Who who wants who's more likely to want to break up? It's women who are more likely to want to break up. Men are more likely to be thinking about their exes. >> And the the not while they're in a relationship. >> Right. Right. Right. Not while they're in a relationship. Right. Now it's over. >> That's the meme. You know, I went online. The meme is like, who's he thinking about? Who's Okay. Yeah. Exactly. The reason put forward for this, and I find it very compelling, is that That's because men just don't quite have their social lives put together in the same way that women do. Meaning they don't have a lot of male friends or here. By the way, I want to put up a disclaimer at the beginning. I should have said this to make the conversation more fluid. We're framing everything in the context of heterosexual pairings, but I I think it's fair to assume that this would also extend to homosexual pairings. >> I think it would >> in in many ways. But >> men have friends. Yeah, >> I realize activity based friendships are, you know, kind of the the dominant theme. >> Men not getting having connection in other things. >> You know, is it could it be that the like the connection that I feel to my male friends and co-workers is is very deep. >> They're important to me. They're like family to me by now. We spend so much time together. >> So, it feels connected. >> It's just but it's a very different kind of um I don't ever think of the word intimacy. I think of trust. >> Yeah. >> And I'm not trying to just, you know, like be, you know, put up a wall to my whatever feminine traits I happen to harbor, you know, like I I I'm I'm cool with that. I'm good with the idea that I have emotions and that I have needs and stuff, but I but I think it it just makes good intuitive sense to me that if I have something that I'm really that I want input on that's of a more like has a more of an emotional undercurrent that I would bring that to my romantic partner. So, here's the question I would pose and I would be clear. I'm not a therapist. I'm a scientist. But I would I would ask you this. If something went wrong, do you feel like you have a sense that there are other people in your life and not your partner but other people that you could go to if you needed to? >> Definitely. >> See, that is the essence of social support. It's actually not literally do you take people up on it. It's do you kind of have a vague sense that people are around and that's the part that matters. That's the part that gives us the health and well-being benefits. It's like a bank account you never have to dip into. It just gives you the sense to dip into it. >> Yeah. [laughter] Right. Right. There you go. >> Luckily, it's a vast account. I try not to make too many withdrawals on it. >> Yeah. >> So, just the feeling that it's there is really the core component. And I think there are a lot of men, not you and not me, but a lot of men out there that don't feel like they have that social support bank account, >> like a close male friend or female friend or female friendly platonic or family for that matter. I mean, you know, who's who's more likely to like lose touch with siblings? I I I'm willing to bet that that's more likely to be men, too. So, I think this is part of like the modern challenge of masculinity that that that worries me that I point to like I want to help men at least have that sense. I think they can cultivate it through all the activity- based things that you describe and like I did that myself throughout my 20s and 30s. Like I could not count the number of kickball and softball teams that I participated in. And I did that not because I wanted support. I don't think I ever got emotional and cried in front of any of those guys, but I knew they were there and that if I ever had to go to that, I I could. You I'm talking about memes and internet themes and I have to be careful doing that because I don't want to put too much weight on the uh the direction of those things and what they really mean. And the science is what I'm interested in. But, you know, I think um most guys would probably say that that scene in that movie, The Town, where uh Ben Affleck walks in and says, you know, listen, yep, we got to do something. People are going to get hurt. We got to do this. And you know, like, and you can't talk to anybody. And his friend's only response is who's driving. >> Yeah. >> Is is kind of like the essence of what a lot of men want and kind of idealize male friendship as. Like, are we got to go bury a body or create one? And there's it's just that it's the loyalty. It's the trust. A lot's encapsulated in that. It's a bad quote unquote badass scene, right? But they're about to do something real bad. I recommend that, right? That's not the friend test you want. I know people have used that as the friend test and they paid dearly for it. Right. But the point is that friends who aren't going to ask too many questions that they can hold in the center of their um mind without any long preamble that your friend needs something and you'll do whatever it is that they need because you love them. >> I think that that's what's the deeper layer of it. I'm realizing there I have this like sense that there's a a big contradiction not in the scientific literature but in the public perception >> which is this I feel like one common narrative these days is >> look men failed they just failed like they didn't step up right they weren't committal you know we have to take care of them they live much longer in a relationship we die much earlier >> that's one narrative that you hear a lot about. It's a scary narrative, right? >> Because you also hear the narrative, yeah, like women are just uh very extractive. They'll trade up. You know how unfortunately your friend dated your uh then they you they broke up. She broke up with you first. >> Right. Right. But, you know, a lot of the things that come into play like the Coldplay concert affair that got went viral was about this woman and you know, and a lot of it was pointed at her, him too, but you know, it was like >> a lot was made of this thing that does happen. >> Yeah. >> That there's this notion like, well, who would actually pair up with their, you know, their female friend? A woman pairing up with a female friend's husband or brother. There's a lot of that. And you never know how much of this is being these narratives are being fed. So, I feel like now we're at this point that seems to be resolving a little bit, but we've been at this point where there are these two camps and I saw something on um Twitter X some time ago and it just like stopped me in my tracks which said the way you destroy a society is to get the men and the women to hate each other and maybe I would just underwrite distrust each other. >> Yeah. >> Right. And so >> we need to move through this. I'm not actually asking you to solve it but what do the data say? For instance, if we were to look at dating apps and I ask, do you think that the dynamics on dating apps, the algorithms, which are clearly designed to make the company's money? >> Yeah. >> Do you think those are more femaledriven algorithms or maledriven algorithms? Not meaning who runs the companies. We know the answer to that >> for the most part. The question is, do you think that the apps are trying to optimize for more women to come to them or for more men to come to them and stay there? Because the theory is always kind of launch in the opposite direction. And if that wasn't clear, um I'm just wondering who's who's got the power. My understanding now again, the dating apps are hard to decipher because like these companies don't share data with us. I've worked with some matchmaking companies data. They're more interested in generally in collaborating with scientists because they've they got to make people on dates happy. They don't work on engagement, they work on happy dates, right? >> So, they're more interested in talking to scientists. >> But I think when your goal is getting users and getting engagement, >> what you're probably trying to do is bring more women in because my understanding is that there's more men on the apps. Yeah, I think so. I what I don't know and I don't know if anybody knows other than the people at these companies is like okay but how many of those apps are in use and how many people you know regular users I'm not sure. So you got to bring more women in but again engagement is the goal right I mean that's what the apps want you spending time on it and then they want you to get the fancier features. So is that going to be more geared toward men? It it might be, but I'm kind of speculating here. I expect that when you're trying to create an app for heterosexual men and women, you're going to have to somehow marry those two challenges. And look, one of the bigger
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我认为这才是大事。以及大 一是女性通常更优秀 在培养来自各方的社会支持方面 他们生活的方方面面，不仅仅是他们的 恋爱对象。而对于男性来说，情况则不同。 主要是他们的伴侣。那是 他们大部分收入来源地 支持和亲密需求得到满足。大概 至少在一段时间内是 大多站在他们这边。这就是原因 你可以看到整个弧线的范围 在一段关系中，男人总是扮演着重要的角色。 男性比女性更热情一些。 急切是指哪方面？ 各方面都渴望参与。我想成为 首先，这段关系一开始就存在。 我更倾向于先说“我爱你”。 我更倾向于…… 独家的。我更有可能想要 将事情提升到一个新的水平。 男性更愿意这样做。 男人对这一切的反抗 关于男性不愿做出承诺。 是的。正确的。所以，我……呃，我…… 这就是所谓的新评论 关于这方面的论文确实 引人入胜，而且有点像…… 效果大小总体相同， 这就是我们谈论它有多大的方式。 性别差异？你知道，就是它的 中等大小，但它就在那里 通过分手来解决问题。 WHO 谁想要谁更有可能想要 拆散？女性更有可能 想要分手。男性更有可能 想着自己的前任。 而且，当他们身处……时，并非如此。 关系。 正确的。正确的。正确的。只要他们还在 在一个（恋爱）关系中。正确的。现在一切都结束了。 这就是梗。你知道，我去了 在线的。这个梗就像在问：他是谁？ 在想什么？谁没事？是的。 确切地。提出的理由 这一点，我觉得非常有说服力，是 那 那是因为男人就是不太具备…… 他们的社交生活交织在一起 就像女人那样。意思是他们 没有很多男性朋友或 这里。顺便说一下，我想安装一个 开头有免责声明。我应该 这么说是为了开启对话。 更流畅。我们正在将一切都框定在内 异性恋配对的背景， 但我认为可以合理地假设： 这也适用于同性恋者。 配对。 我觉得会 在很多方面。但 男人也有朋友。是的， 我意识到基于活动的友谊 你知道，它们算是占主导地位的。 主题。 男人之间缺乏联系 其他事情。 你知道，会不会是…… 就像我与我的联系一样 男性朋友和同事非常 深的。 它们对我来说很重要。他们就像 现在他们对我来说就像家人一样。我们花费了太多 共度时光。 所以，感觉上是相互联系的。 只是，但它是一种截然不同的类型 嗯……我从来没想过这个词。 亲密关系。我想到了信任。 是的。 我并不是想说，你知道， 就像，你知道，在我面前筑起一道墙 无论我碰巧具备哪些女性特质 港口，你知道，就像我，我，我很酷 就这样。我接受这个想法。 我有情感，我有需求， 东西，但我认为它只是 对我来说，这在直觉上很有道理，如果 我有一些东西，那是我真正想说的。 想听听大家的意见，这更像是…… 一种更深层次的情感暗流。 我会把那带给我的浪漫 伙伴。所以，我的问题是…… 摆个姿势，我就能说清楚了。我不是 治疗师。我是一名科学家。但我会 我想问你这个问题。 如果出了什么差错，你感觉如何？ 就像你感觉到有…… 你生活中其他人，而不是你的 伴侣，但你也可以和其他人合作 如果需要的话，可以去吗？ 确实。 你看，这就是社会的本质 支持。实际上并非如此。 你接受了别人的提议。是你吗？ 隐约觉得人们 周围都是，这就是其中的一部分 重要的事情。正是这部分赋予了我们 对健康和福祉的益处。它是 就像银行账户一样，你永远不必…… 深入体验。它只是让你明白…… 浅尝辄止。 是的。 [笑声] 对。正确的。在那里 去。 幸运的是，这是一个庞大的账户。我尽量不 从该账户中取款次数过多。 是的。 所以，仅仅是感觉它存在就足够了。 这才是真正的核心部件。我觉得 有很多男人，但你不是，也不是。 我自己，还有很多男人也这样。 感觉他们没有那种社交能力 支持银行账户， 比如关系亲密的男性朋友或女性朋友 朋友或女性友好柏拉图式关系 事实上，也包括家人。我的意思是，你 知道谁更有可能喜欢谁 与兄弟姐妹失去联系？我 我 我 我敢打赌，这种情况更有可能发生。 也要像个男人一样。所以，我认为这是部分 就像现代的挑战一样 让我担忧的那种男性气质 我指着他们说，我想帮助男人。 至少要有这种意识。我认为他们 可以通过所有方式培养它 你描述的那些基于活动的事物 就像我自己在整个过程中所做的那样 20 多岁和 30 多岁。就像我无法数清…… 垒球和踢球队伍的数量 我参与其中。而且我确实做到了。 并非因为我想要获得支持。我不 我想我曾经情绪激动地哭过。 在那些家伙面前，但我知道 它们就在那里，如果我曾经有过…… 如果要去那里，我可以。你，我是 谈论网络迷因和网络主题 我这样做必须小心。 因为我不想投入太多。 重心放在那些方向上 事物及其真正含义。和 我感兴趣的是科学。 但是，你知道，我觉得大多数男人 可能会说，那一幕 那部电影，《城中大盗》，呃，本 阿弗莱克走进来，说道，你知道， 听， 是的，我们必须做点什么。人们是 会受伤的。我们必须这么做。 你知道，就像，你不能说话。 对任何人。而他的朋友只是 回答是谁在开车。 是的。 这有点像是……的本质 很多男人都渴望拥有这样的身材，并且在某种程度上将其理想化。 男性友谊。比如，我们是不是必须 去埋葬尸体还是去伪造尸体？和 关键就在于忠诚。 是信任。很多东西都包含在其中 那。这是一个糟糕的所谓“狠角色”。 场景，对吧？但他们即将这样做 情况非常糟糕。我建议这样做。 正确的？那不是考验朋友的方式。 想。我知道有人用过这个词。 朋友的考验，他们为此付出了惨痛的代价。 它。正确的。但重点是朋友们 他们不会要求太多 他们可以提出的问题 他们内心深处，没有任何长篇大论 你的朋友需要的开场白 做某件事，你就会去做那件事。 他们需要你爱他们。 我认为这才是更深层次的原因。 一层。 我意识到我在这方面有这种感觉 感觉存在一个巨大的矛盾 不是在科学文献中，而是在 公众认知 我觉得这很常见 如今的叙事方式是 瞧，男人失败了，他们就是失败了，就像…… 他们没有挺身而出，他们不是。 你知道，我们必须谨慎行事。 它们中的一些人活得更久。 与伴侣的关系，我们很早就消逝了。 这是你经常会听到的一种说法。 关于。这故事听起来很可怕，对吧？ 因为你也听到了这种说法， 是啊，就像女人就是……非常 萃取物。他们会进行升级换代。你知道 真可惜，你的朋友和你约会过。 呃，然后他们分手了。她 我先跟你分手的。 正确的。正确的。但是，你知道，很多 诸如以下这些因素会起作用： 酷玩乐队演唱会活动结束了 这件事闹得沸沸扬扬，是因为一个女人，你知道的。 很多指责都指向她，也指向他。 也是，但你知道，就像 这件事被大肆宣传了一番。 发生。 是的。 有一种想法是，嗯，谁？ 实际上会和他们配对，你 认识他们的女性朋友吗？一位女士 与一位女性朋友结对 丈夫或兄弟。有很多 那。你永远无法预知有多少 这就是这些叙事正在发生的原因 美联储。所以，我觉得我们现在到了这个阶段。 这一点似乎正在解决问题 有点，但我们已经到了这个阶段了。 那里有两个阵营，而我 之前在推特上看到过一些东西。 很久以前，它就让我停了下来。 那些讲述你摧毁一个方式的歌曲 社会的目的是让男人和女人都参与进来。 彼此憎恨，也许我会 彼此之间缺乏信任。 是的。 正确的。所以 我们需要渡过难关。我不是 实际上是想让你解决这个问题，但是…… 数据说明了什么？例如，如果我们 如果要查看约会软件，我会问： 你认为约会中的动态是什么？ 应用程序和算法显然 旨在为公司赚钱？ 是的。 你认为这些公司更多是由女性主导的吗？ 算法还是男性主导的算法？不是 指的是谁在运营这些公司。我们知道 答案是…… 大多数情况下是这样。问题是，这样做吗？ 你认为这些应用程序试图 优化以吸引更多女性加入 或者让更多男人来找他们并留下来。 那里？因为理论总是善意的。 向相反方向发射。和 如果刚才没说清楚的话，嗯，我只是 想知道谁掌握着权力。我的 现在我又明白了，约会软件 很难解读，因为像这样 公司不会与我们分享数据。我已经 与一些婚介公司合作 数据。他们更感兴趣的是 通常在与……合作 科学家们，因为他们必须这样做 让约会对象感到快乐。他们不 他们致力于提升参与度，他们致力于创造快乐 日期，对吧？ 所以，他们更热衷于交谈。 对科学家而言。 但我认为，当你的目标是获得 用户参与度和互动度 你可能想做的是 引进更多女性，因为我 人们普遍认为男性更多。 在应用程序上。是的，我也这么认为。我什么 我不知道，也不知道有没有人 除了这些人之外，他们还不知道其他任何人。 公司就像是“好吧”，但是有多少家呢？ 这些应用正在使用吗？有多少个正在使用？ 你认识的那些普通用户，我不是。 当然。所以你得招进更多女性。 但再次强调，参与度才是最终目标，对吧？ 这意味着这就是应用程序想要你做的。 他们花时间在这上面，然后他们就想要 让你获得更高级的功能。所以是 那款产品会更偏向男性用户吗？ 也许是这样，但我有点…… 这只是推测。我预计当 您正在尝试创建一个应用程序 异性恋男女们，你们要走了 必须想办法让这两个人结婚。 挑战。你看，这是其中较大的一个。

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英文原文
gender differences that we see in the whole realm of sex and relationships is in swiping behavior. the fact that women will swipe yes on like 5% of the men they see, but men swipe yes at about 50/50. But that fits the kind of evolutionary quote unquote narrative like men being less selective, wanting to spread their >> their DNA, this kind of thing. I mean, >> to my mind, that whole thing around like men want to spread their DNA. Okay. Like I believe in in evolutionary biology, sure, but there's a lot of modern features that make like accountability for offspring and things like it's not like men can run around just having kids with anyone and and afford all of that, right? It's I mean, you know, we were talking earlier the sort of like two models. There's like the there's like the Genghask Khan ideal within this evolutionary >> biology model and then there's, you know, kind of like where are we now? I mean, I don't think anyone with the exception of some very wealthy people who who have kids with lots and lots of people and clearly can afford it, >> I don't think anyone's thinking they're going to go out and just have kids with as many people as they possibly can, >> right? >> And so what what's so interesting about these gendered dynamics is that from my perspective, they tend to get the largest the biggest gulf between men and women in the situations that are the weirdest. So, for example, we this is and this is a real study. You recruit confederates. So, that means it's somebody who's working for the experimentter. And then uh they go around campus and they ask people, "I've noticed you around and I find you very attractive. Would you like to go to bed with me?" And when you do this, you find that men are about 20 times more likely to say yes to that request than women. Very few women say yes to this request, but a reasonable number of men do. All right. But the thing about that experiment, and that experiment is very valuable, and it's very influential, and I love at least that it was real, that people were actually out in the world doing something, even if it's a little wild and uh probably a little scary, especially for the women. But if you do this one little tweak and you say, "Yeah, okay, but how about like the last time that happened to you in real life, like in a context where you knew people and then you look at the gender difference, it's not 20 times more, it's two times more." >> What do you mean? >> It's like the last time somebody you know, like among a group of friends like ask like, "Hey, do you want to go hook up?" How much more likely then are men to say yes than women? And men are still more likely, but they're only twice as likely rather than 20 times as likely. >> So, this is not my belief, but the cynical um incel types on the internet or the just cynical guys will say will say, "Oh, that's because women are sleeping around more than they used to when the first experiment was done." I don't believe that's true. But I can tell you that would be their reflexive response. Like like there's so there's this ammo there these arrows that each side holds. one side holds the >> guys aren't stepping up. They're not they're not managing their own lives, let alone making themselves somebody who would be attractive as a a partner who could listen and do and take help take care of somebody because the notion of taking care is something we can talk about. the guys are saying, "Well, they're just all extractive, you know, that and there's deceptiveness there, and they'll trade up in a at a moment's notice, you know, and and so >> I mean, I don't want to feed the flames of distrust, but the data you just provided, what do they what is the conclusion? Like, so that's the result, but but in that paper, what's the the authors, you know, we the authors therefore conclude that?" So I would I would conclude this >> that approaching strangers is especially in a romantic or sexual context is very very tricky, very challenging and it is a weird modern skill because we actually evolved in environments where you didn't actually meet that many strangers. So if some people are adept at that, God bless. But for most of us, we had to get to know people over time. We needed that long process to make a good impression on somebody because most of us are like not all that hot and [laughter] not so appealing that people fall for us the moment we see them. And so that is what I would tell these hypothetical incels is I think part of the problem is that you're locked into a way of thinking about sex and romance that it's about a pickup line or it's about an initial impression. I think women are more interested in casual sex when it's somebody that they like kind of know and have been friendly with for a while and have had like some good banter with. And if you surround yourself with people, not just women, but also men, and you meet friends of friends, you're going to find more opportunities that way. So, it's like a shift in the mindset that we have about how it is we meet people and how it is we get to know them. and that hitting on strangers is like low yield, very difficult. Spending time with friends, it's time consuming, although it's enjoyable in and of itself. It's a timeconsuming approach, but it's ultimately going to be better for more people. Uh, you know, on on average, at least in light of the apps, social media, this divide, I I'm very grateful that you're bringing up this notion of spending time in small groups. Yeah, probably around certain activities. Could be pickle ball, could be a barbecue, could be I mean that's how people used to meet. You know, sometimes there's work adjacency. I mean, I think that one of the reasons the coal play thing went so viral is that the woman was head of HR. So there were a number of things that were ethical violations independent of like they tried to kind of rescue it like but they were in love and there were marriages were failing and people were like there are violations down the line on this right you know in laboratories >> many people cuddled up in laboratories you know my adviserss were always like really adamant that no one should do that I listen interesting oh yeah >> so they try to lock it down I mean in graduate school I I worked alone in the lab but my graduate adviser actually uh suggested I not even date within our graduate program this is peerto-peer I was a graduate student and for the most part I I obeyed but I was so focused on work and and I guess it happened with like you'd go to meetings you meet other graduate students so it was really peerto-peer >> in my post-doal laboratory my adviser was like vocal to everyone like no dating in the lab and of course there are certain married couples nowadays with kids >> several of them in fact that met in the lab just by proximity interest and who knows aloequading prowess who knows >> somebody out there an incredible aloquat that never got to attract somebody to my knowledge this by the way folks again this is not a way to attract a mate [laughter] unless you're a molecular biologist perhaps but I think that there's real value in this in this because unlike our earlier discussion where other people's input >> um be can be kind of toxic to the process of understanding and really getting in touch with one's sense of taste I like this person I don't this feels safe it doesn't feel safe and I'm not using by the way the safe language to be politically correct like some people feel emotionally unsafe because it's just like like if there were a stressful circumstance, they would dissolve into a puddle of their own tears. That's a different version of it, right? I think we all kind of like flit to the the extremes. But that's that's another aspect. >> But this is a context in which you can get a read of how someone behaves, their values, their reflexive levels of kindness or lack thereof with other people. >> Yeah. >> You get a lot of data. >> Yeah. >> In a in a setting that >> you're hopefully enjoying yourself in any way. That seems very very valuable. >> So we're talking 80s movies and 90s movies already. So I'm gonna throw out Say Anything. >> Oh yeah. >> Do you remember Say Anything? Absolutely. So the John Cusack lead character um asks out the Ioni Sky character, but where they go on their first date is absolutely fascinating. They go to a party. So, they are clearly going together, but they don't spend the whole party like attached to each other and they're not interviewing each other like they met on an app. They're actually kind of watching each other as they float through these various groups. And sometimes they're talking to other folks about the fact that they're kind of on a date right now and how is it's going, but they're also talking to each other. And it's kind of a beautiful depiction of this old kind of lost art of you're dating, but you're also with other people seeing how uh they behave. And and one of the moments where I sky sort of you can see are starting to fall for John Cusack is when he's actually looking out for some of the other folks there like you know taking their keys away so they don't drive. And I I think that that idea of like watching how we behave around other people can be very powerful. >> So one of his unique qualities was that he's protective of other people and responsible and he put other people's safety ahead of his own desire to go out and drink that night or something. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I forgot that scene. >> I'm I I That's a perfect segue to what I was going to say next, but I'm brought to this mildly traumatic experience in high school where I didn't go any go to any high school dances early in high school. I was like really in the skateboard community, just really focused on that. And then uh it was my junior year of high school. >> Um the now woman, then young woman, girl, whatever, uh asked me that. It was the Satie Hawkins dance where the the girls asked the boys. This was very oldfashioned, right? Like I've heard this. It already assumes, right, that the guy that the guys always ask the girls, which was pretty much the standard. >> We go and um she was a year older and extremely beautiful, super kind. It
中文译文
我们在性别差异中看到的 性与关系的整个领域是 在滑动行为方面。事实上，女性 大概只有 5% 的男性会选择“是”。 他们看到了，但男人们大约在……时才滑动“是”。 五五开。但这符合这种类型 进化论的引述 比如男性不太挑剔，想要更多。 传播他们的 他们的 DNA，诸如此类。我是说， 在我看来，那整件事就像…… 男人想要传播他们的 DNA。好的。喜欢 我相信进化生物学。 当然，但也有很多现代的 诸如问责制之类的功能 为了后代之类的，这不是 就像男人可以到处生孩子一样 和任何人在一起，并且负担得起所有这些， 正确的？我的意思是，你知道，我们当时 之前聊过，有点像两个 模型。就像…… 成哈斯克汗的理想就在其中 进化 生物学模型，然后还有，你 你知道，有点像我们现在在哪里？我 我的意思是，我不认为任何人 除了少数非常富有的人之外 有很多孩子的人 很多人，而且显然都负担得起。 它， 我不认为有人会这么想 打算出去和他们生孩子 尽可能多地帮助人们， 正确的？ 那么，究竟是什么让这一切如此有趣呢？ 这些性别动态来自我的 从这个角度来看，他们往往会得到 最大的，男人和女人之间最大的鸿沟 处于这种境地的女性 最奇怪。例如，我们这是 这是一项真实的研究。你招募 南方邦联。所以，这意味着它是 为……工作的人 实验者。然后，呃，他们就走了 他们在校园里四处走动，问人们：“我……” 我注意到你，我觉得你非常 吸引人的。你想睡觉吗？ 和我一起吗？”当你这样做的时候，你会发现 男性患病的可能性大约是女性的 20 倍。 比女性更容易答应这个请求。 很少有女性会答应这个要求。 但确实有相当一部分男性会这样做。全部 正确的。但关键在于…… 实验，而且这个实验非常 它很有价值，而且影响很大， 至少我很高兴它是真实的， 人们确实在外面活动。 做点什么，哪怕只是一点点 狂野，而且可能还有点吓人， 尤其是对女性而言。但如果你这样做的话 只需稍作调整，你就会说： “好吧，那像上次那样呢？” 你在现实生活中经历过的事情 比如在你认识人的那种情况下 然后你再看看性别。 区别不在于数量是 20 倍，而在于数量是…… 是两倍。 你是什么意思？ 就像上次有人…… 知道，就像在一群朋友中间一样 比如问：“嘿，你想去钓鱼吗？” 向上？”那么男性比女性更有可能吗？ 比女性更愿意说“是”？而男人仍然 更有可能，但可能性只有原来的两倍。 可能性更大，而不是可能性高出 20 倍。 所以，这不是我的个人观点，而是…… 网络上那些愤世嫉俗的“incel”类型人士 或者那些愤世嫉俗的人会说： 比如说，“哦，那是因为女性……” 他们比以前更频繁地乱搞男女关系 当第一个实验完成时。” 别相信那是真的。但我可以 告诉你那将是他们的本能反应 回复。就像，就像，所以就有 这些弹药，这些箭，每支 侧握。一侧握着 男人们没有挺身而出。他们不是 他们无法掌控自己的生活， 更别提把自己变成那样的人了 作为一名伴侣，他会很有吸引力 能够倾听、行动并接受帮助 关心某人，因为这种想法 照顾他人是我们可以谈论的事情。 关于。他们说：“嗯， 它们都是掠夺性的，你知道的。 而且其中还存在欺骗性。 他们很快就会进行升级交易。 注意，你知道，而且，所以 我的意思是，我不想火上浇油。 虽然存在不信任，但你提供的数据 假设他们提供什么，那是什么？ 结论？所以，这就是结果。 但是，在那篇论文中，什么是…… 作者们，你知道，我们这些作者 因此，我的结论是？所以我会这样说。 由此得出结论 接近陌生人 尤其在浪漫或性关系中。 语境非常棘手，非常 具有挑战性，而且是一种奇特的现代 技能，因为我们实际上是在进化过程中形成的。 在你实际上并不存在的环境中 结识这么多陌生人。所以如果一些 人们很擅长这一点，上帝保佑。但 对我们大多数人来说，我们必须了解 随着时间的推移，人们的变化。我们需要那么长时间 给人留下好印象的过程 有些人，因为我们大多数人都不喜欢这样。 那么热，而且[笑声]也没那么热 吸引人们爱上我们 我们看到他们的那一刻。所以，这就是…… 我会告诉这些假想中的“非自愿独身者” 我认为问题的一部分在于…… 你被困在一种思维模式里了。 它讲述的是性和浪漫，而它本身就是一个…… 搭讪用语，或者说是关于开头 印象。我认为女性更 对随意性行为感兴趣 他们喜欢的人，有点认识，而且 我们已经认识一段时间了，关系很友好。 和他们聊得很开心。和 如果你身边都是些人， 不仅是女性，还有男性，以及你。 你会见到朋友的朋友，你打算 这样就能找到更多机会。所以， 这就像是我们思维方式的转变。 想想我们如何与人相遇，以及 我们是如何认识他们的。以及 搭讪陌生人就像低收益， 非常困难。与……共度时光 朋友们，虽然这很耗时， 它本身就很有趣。这是一个 这种方法虽然耗时，但却很有效。 最终对更多人来说会更好。 人们。呃，你知道，平均而言，在 至少从应用程序和社交的角度来看 媒体，这种分裂，我非常感激 你提出了这个概念 多花时间进行小组活动。是的， 可能与某些活动有关。 可能是匹克球，也可能是 烧烤，可能就是那种方式 人们过去常常在这里聚会。你知道，有时候 工作内容有重叠之处。我的意思是，我觉得 煤炭开采的原因之一是…… 这件事之所以在网上疯传，是因为那个女人 曾任人力资源主管。所以数量有很多。 那些违反道德规范的事情 独立于他们试图友善 就像要拯救它一样，但他们相爱了。 而且，有些婚姻也走向了失败。 人们的反应就像是…… 这条路沿途的违规行为 你知道在实验室里 许多人在实验室里依偎在一起 你知道我的顾问们总是这样 他非常坚决地认为任何人都不应该这样做。 我听着挺有意思的，哦耶 所以他们试图把它封锁起来，我的意思是…… 研究生期间，我独自一人工作。 实验室，但我的研究生导师实际上呃 建议我甚至不要和我们这群人约会 研究生项目，这是点对点学习。 曾是一名研究生，而且大部分时间都是如此。 第一部分，我服从了，但我太专注于…… 工作，我想事情就是这样发生的。 就像你去参加会议时会遇到其他人一样 研究生们，所以这真的很 点对点 在我的博士后实验室里，我的导师 就像对每个人都大声说话一样，没有 实验室测年法，当然还有…… 如今某些已婚夫妇 和孩子们 事实上，其中几位曾在……相遇 实验室仅因邻近性、兴趣和谁而设 知道谁具备均衡能力 有人拥有令人难以置信的枇杷 那从来没能吸引到任何人。 顺便一提，各位，这又是一回事了。 这不是吸引伴侣的方法 [笑声] 除非你是分子 或许是生物学家，但我认为…… 这其中蕴含着真正的价值。 因为与我们之前的讨论不同， 其他人的意见 嗯，它可能对……有毒性。 理解的过程，以及真正 与自己的感觉建立联系 我喜欢这个人，我不喜欢这个。 感觉安全，感觉不安全，我是 顺便说一句，不使用安全语言 像某些人一样，讲究政治正确 人们感到情感上的不安全感，因为 就好像如果有个 在压力大的情况下，他们会 化作一滩水。 眼泪。那是另一个版本。 正确的？我觉得我们都挺喜欢弗利特的。 走向极端。但仅此而已。 另一个方面。 但这是一个你可以……的背景。 了解一个人的行为方式，他们的 价值观，以及它们的反思水平 对其他人的友善程度或缺乏友善 人们。 是的。 你会获得大量数据。 是的。 在一个环境中 希望你玩得开心 反正。那看起来非常有价值。 所以我们说的是 80 年代和 90 年代的电影。 电影已经开始了。所以我要扔掉 畅所欲言。 哦，是的。 你还记得《情到深处》（Say Anything）这部电影吗？ 绝对地。所以约翰·库萨克主演 角色嗯，向伊奥尼天空发出邀请。 性格，以及他们未来的发展方向 第一次约会真是太奇妙了。 他们去参加聚会。所以，他们显然是 一起去，但他们不花时间 整个派对成员之间就像连在一起一样。 他们之间并没有互相采访。 就像他们通过约会软件认识的。他们是 实际上，他们有点像是在互相观察。 它们在这些不同的群体中游荡。 有时他们会和其他人交谈。 人们都说他们很友善 现在正在约会，感觉怎么样？ 他们一边走，一边互相交谈 其他。而且它还挺漂亮的 对这种古老失传艺术的描绘 如果你正在约会，但你也和…… 其他人看到他们的行为。 而其中一个时刻，我翱翔在天空 有点像你可以看到它们开始下降了 对约翰·库萨克来说，当他真正……的时候 照顾一下其他人 就像你知道的，他们拿走了他们的钥匙 远离他们，这样他们就不会开车了。而且我认为 那种想法就像观察我们如何 与他人相处时的行为举止可能非常 强大的。 所以他的独特品质之一就是…… 他很会保护别人， 他很负责，而且把别人的利益放在首位。 安全比他外出的愿望更重要 当晚可能还会喝点什么。 是的。 是的。我忘了那场戏了。 我 我 我 这完美地过渡到了我要说的…… 本来想说下一个，但我被带走了 这段轻微的创伤经历 我没去的高中 高中早期的任何舞会 学校。我当时真的非常投入。 滑板圈，真的 专注于此。然后，呃，是我的 高二那年。 嗯，现在的她，以前的年轻女人， 那个女孩，随便吧，呃，她问了我这个问题。那是 萨蒂·霍金斯的舞蹈，其中 女孩们问男孩们。这非常 很老套，对吧？就像我听说的那样 这。它已经假定了这一点，对吧？ 男人们总是问的那个人 女孩们，这几乎就是 标准。 我们去了，嗯，她比我大一岁， 非常漂亮，人也超级好。它

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ended up being a very long-term relationship. But I remember going and she had something back then where her hands would get really cold. >> She had this thing where it was a cold night. And so she went into the bathroom. She said, "I'd have to like warm my hands." She was in there a really long time. And I'm standing out there and people are coming up to me and they're like, "What are you doing here?" Like, "Why are you at a dance?" And I said, "So and so invited me." And no one believed me. They was like, "There's no chance." And I have to say, it was the most mortifying thing. [laughter] And I kept waiting for this moment where she would come out of the bathroom and like vindicate me. And they all kept like dissipating before she came back. She eventually came back. And I just remember thinking like, oh man, like nobody even and I thinking like I'm either completely outclassed, like completely outclassed or like this is one of the best opportunities that ever landed uh in my lap and I'm going to I'm going to pursue this with everything I've got. So I went with the second thing and anyway, we uh >> this is John Cusack enter. >> It was it was brutal. Like I had to sit there and like you know and like no one believed me. They actually thought like I just like snuck in or something like that. Anyway, the John Cusack example is a really good one because his character in that movie is a little awkward along certain dimensions. He's certainly not as um quote unquote ambitious in the typical sense, although he wants to be a great kickboxer. Kickboxing sport of the future, right? It's a great scene between him and and her dad where he's explaining what he's going to do in life and and not in any kind of uh fluent way >> and her family clearly has other plans for her. But it gets to this thing that I had written down because I want to ask about next which is this notion of texting in particular. So not even apps but let's just say it's migrated off app or people meet they exchange number and there's some texting right and this notion of of the kind of unique um advantage at least early on >> that I think can be somewhat misleading of people who are hyperverbal. Oh, interesting. >> And in particular among men. And so here's what um I think years ago when I was on the job market for academic science, a really fantastic neurobiologist who actually read uh ran um let's just say a very famous school in Boston's brain science center. Um they never admit the name of their school anyway. um said to me, he said, "You know, the worst part about the job search process in uh neuroscience is that it selects for hyperverbal people where people can present their data, excite people about it, present their vision." And he said, "And there's so many amazing scientists that just don't know how to communicate their data >> and we're selecting for someone who can also teach, who can also do these things." And I realize he's absolutely right, you know, and some people can overcome this, but some of the best scientists in the world, speaking isn't their forte. >> Yeah. >> Okay. So, in the realm of text communication, there's a kind of a bias toward can somebody like a good listener in a face to face interaction like a guy can just sit there, listen, >> not interrupt, nod, maybe reflect, >> maybe reflect, tell me more. Well, that must have been interesting, hard, whatever, you know, and can convey a lot of of genuine ability to uh to communicate and bond >> over text, just listening >> doesn't work. In fact, if it's just like, wow, that must have been hard to like a paragraph this long, like it starts to fall flat. And this is where I think >> some people might be screaming, no, no, no, that's what I want. you know, but there's a strong selection process now for people who can communicate quickly with their thumbs, be witty in writing. >> And so the hyperverbal thing has moved to text. >> Yeah, >> that's a challenge. And I do think even though some men are very hyperverbal, there is a sex difference here that we are well aware of. >> So do you think that that's skewing things? because the ability to to kind of keep to get and keep somebody's interest early on is strongly dependent on these days on texting, >> right? I think this is a really good point. You know, I was reminded of some work, this is early work in the like online interaction space that suggested that actually anxious people get a lot out of being able to communicate with a keyboard or with texting because they don't get so overwhelmed. So, this is probably going to be somebody who also on a first date would be having a bit of a tough time. So, it might be that actually texting for them has at least the advantage of reducing some of the anxiety because they can take a minute to think about what they want to say before they have to actually come out with it. But I also think you're right that the ability to be witty over text um as opposed to the kind of like nonverbal listening that you're describing that is going to be a special advantage for some people today. So it c it could very well be skewing things in the way that you describe. There's not great data on this either. I mean I mentioned earlier we don't have great data on like the arc of the relationship. But some of the the people that have tackled this question uh this is great researcher named Mimi Binberg at at Ohio State. And what she does is she gets couples who are together and then says, "Uh, let me uh let me see your texts." And then gets the whole text thread go with their permission all the way back to when they first started texting. And what you see are some cool things like essentially their styles of communicating start to like cohhere, right? It's like a pattern of mutual influence where they they get the similar cadence and they start using similar words and other things as they're talking to each other. Now, of course, those are the successful cases. So, what would it look like if we had the unsuccessful cases? And I think you're right. We would see that the people who can't match or can't be witty early on that those are the the text threads that never become couples. Um, so we just have to figure out how to recruit those folks to to be in our studies. Give us the last 10 threads of of uh, you know, dates that never went anywhere. >> I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, Element. Element is an electrolyte drink that has everything you need and nothing you don't. That means the electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium, all in the correct ratios, but no sugar. Proper hydration is critical for brain and body function. Even a slight degree of dehydration can diminish your cognitive and physical performance. It's also important that you get adequate electrolytes. The electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium are vital for the functioning of all cells in your body, especially your neurons or your nerve cells. Drinking element makes it very easy to ensure that you're getting adequate hydration and adequate electrolytes. My days tend to start really fast, meaning I have to jump right into work or right into exercise. So, to make sure that I'm hydrated and I have sufficient electrolytes, when I first wake up in the morning, I drink 16 to 32 ounces of water with an element packet dissolved in it. I also drink Element dissolved in water during any kind of physical exercise that I'm doing, especially on hot days when I'm sweating a lot and losing water and electrolytes. Element has a bunch of great tasting flavors. In fact, I love them all. I love the watermelon, the raspberry, the citrus, and I really love the lemonade flavor. So, if you'd like to try Element, you can go to drinkelement.com/huberman to claim a free element sample pack with any purchase. Again, that's drinkelement.com/huberman to claim a free sample pack. Yeah, we're sort of veering towards compatibility when I say um you know, if I were to, you know, ask a close family member, you know, like what's great about the relationship you're in, uh this is a woman, and she'll be referring to her male partner in this case. She'll generally talk about the things that he does and the things that he is able to do in support that may or may not even require the ability to speak. Now, he's not aphasic, you know, um but you know, it's >> it's more about like >> what he does. And when we've had conversations on [clears throat] this podcast in the past about kind of relationship glue and things like that, it's like it's like, oh, that they always like, you know, >> one person always seems to like make the bed by the time I'm back from the bathroom in the morning and you're like, "No, my turn." And they they or the other person always sets out the coffee or some it's these the little thing phenomenon. Rarely is it like sometimes it's a note but rarely is it like >> yeah I love the way you know he strings together uh you know sentences or something like I love the way that I love the way that um you know she describes this thing you know so >> it's often about actions at least in the in the observing the qualities of the positive qualities of the male partner and that's very kind of >> stereotypical >> but I think that it just it's it's a kind of window in my mind into the difference between the quote unquote exploration and courting process, although the courting process, what people do arguably matters more than what they say, >> and the kind of long-term thing, >> the the consistency of of the stability of the relationship over time. >> So, I wish that, you know, it's it's a shame that these apps don't select for uh action. The only way to do that would would be something where you would say, "Okay, if you're going to sign up for this app, you know, we're going to ask you to go on at least three dates with, you know, anybody that you match with, and we want to see you dating in these very different circumstances where the point isn't always to just talk at each other. That also you like you got to do things together." I wish there were dates that were like assemble this IKEA furniture. >> Don't people still go for like a hike or go to a show? >> Yeah. Yeah. No, that's that that's good, too, cuz at least it's it's talking and interacting, but a different kind of talking and interacting. I want I want like physical challenges. Get out of
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最终，这变成了一项非常长期的计划。 关系。但我记得我去过那里 她以前有件事…… 手会变得很冷。 她有种感冒的症状。 夜晚。于是她进去了。 浴室。她说：“我得喜欢……” “帮我暖暖手。”她当时就在里面。 时间很长。而我却脱颖而出 那里有人走过来跟我说话， 他们会问：“你在这里做什么？” 比如，“你为什么来参加舞会？”我 他说：“某某邀请了我。”而且没有人 他相信了我。他们说：“没有。” 机会。” 我不得不说，这确实是 最令人难堪的事。 [笑声] 还有我 她一直在等待这一刻。 会从浴室出来，然后就像 请证明我的清白。他们都保持着这种状态 在她回来之前就消散了。她 最终还是回来了。而我只是 记得当时想的是，哦，天哪，就像 甚至没有人，而我却觉得自己像个傻瓜 要么完全被碾压，就像 完全被碾压，或者像这样 这是有史以来最好的机会之一 它落在了我的腿上，我要…… 我会全力以赴地追查此事。 我有。所以我选择了第二个。 事情，总之，我们呃 这位是约翰·库萨克，请进。 太残酷了。就像我不得不坐着一样 在那里，就像你知道的那样，就像没有人一样 他相信了我。他们真的这么想 我就像偷偷溜进去的，或者类似这样 那。反正， 约翰·库萨克的例子就是一个很好的例子。 一是因为他在那部电影中扮演的角色 在某些方面有点尴尬 方面。他当然没那么…… 典型的“雄心勃勃” 虽然他想成为一名伟大的人，但这并非事实。 自由搏击选手。自由搏击运动 未来，对吧？这是一个很棒的场景。 在他和她爸爸之间，他现在在哪里？ 解释他人生中的打算 而且一点也不流利 而她的家人显然另有打算。 为了她。但问题就出在这里…… 我写下来是因为我想问 接下来是关于这个概念的 尤其是短信交流。所以甚至连应用程序都不能用 但假设它已经从应用程序迁移出去了。 或者人们见面后会交换电话号码 这里有一些短信，对吧？ 独特概念 至少在早期阶段具有优势 我认为这在某种程度上可能会产生误导。 那些话多的人。哦， 有趣的。 尤其是在男性群体中。所以 嗯，这是我几年前的想法。 曾是学术界的求职者 科学，真是太棒了 真正读过《呃，跑》的神经生物学家 嗯，这么说吧，这是一所非常有名的学校。 在波士顿脑科学中心。嗯 他们从不承认他们的名字 反正都要上学。嗯，他对我说，他说， 你知道，这份工作最糟糕的地方是什么吗？ 神经科学中的搜索过程是 它筛选出话多的人 人们可以在这里展示他们的数据， 激发人们对它的兴趣，展示他们的 愿景。” 他说，“而且还有很多。” 许多杰出的科学家就是不 知道如何传达他们的数据 我们正在挑选一位能够胜任的人选。 也可以教，谁也能做到这些 事情。”我意识到他绝对是 对，你知道，有些人可以 克服这一点，但一些最好的 世界上的科学家们，说话并不是一件容易的事。 他们的强项。 是的。 好的。所以，在文本领域 沟通中存在某种偏见 可以像个好的倾听者一样对待别人 在面对面的交流中，就像一个男人 可以就坐在那里，听着， 不要打断，点点头，或许会思考片刻。 或许可以反思一下，再跟我说说。嗯，就是这样。 一定很有趣，也很辛苦。 随便什么，你知道的，而且能传达很多信息。 真正有能力…… 沟通与联系 通过文字，只是听着 行不通。事实上，如果只是 哇，那一定很难。 就像这么长的一段话，就像这样 开始走下坡路。这就是我 思考 有些人可能会尖叫，不，不， 不，那正是我想要的。你知道，但是 现在有一套严格的筛选程序。 对于能够快速沟通的人来说 用拇指写字，文笔诙谐幽默。 因此，这种话多现象已经发生了变化。 转换为文本。 是的， 那确实是个挑战。而且我认为即使 虽然有些男性非常健谈， 这里存在性别差异，我们 非常清楚。 所以你认为这会造成偏差吗？ 事物？因为有能力做到善良 保持以获得并保留某人的 早期的兴趣很大程度上取决于 这些天都在发短信， 正确的？我觉得这真的很不错 观点。你知道吗，这让我想起了一些事。 这项工作，这是类似工作的早期成果。 建议的在线互动空间 实际上，焦虑的人会得到很多。 能够与……沟通 键盘或短信，因为它们 别太紧张。所以，这是 很可能也是某个人 第一次约会时可能会有点…… 一段艰难时期。所以，有可能是这样。 实际上，给他们发短信至少有一定作用。 减少某些方面的优势 因为他们可能需要一分钟时间，所以会感到焦虑。 思考他们想说什么 在他们真正出来之前 和它一起。但我认为你的说法也是对的。 在短信中展现机智的能力 嗯，与那种……相反 非语言倾听表明你 描述那将是一件特别的事。 对某些人来说，这在今天是一种优势。所以它 c 这很可能造成了偏差 就像你描述的那样。没有 这方面的数据也很棒。我的意思是， 前面提到过，我们没有很好的 类似弧线的数据 关系。 但有些人却…… 解决了这个问题，嗯，这太棒了 俄亥俄州的研究员米米·宾伯格 状态。她所做的就是得到 在一起的情侣们然后说， “呃，让我看看你的短信。” 然后整个聊天记录就开始了。 一路都征得了他们的同意 直到他们开始发短信的时候。和 你看到的是一些很酷的东西，比如 本质上是他们的风格 沟通开始像 cohhere 一样， 正确的？这就像一种相互依存的模式。 影响他们获取资源的途径 类似的节奏，他们开始使用 类似的词语和其他事物 他们正在交谈。现在， 当然，这些都是成功的案例。 那么，如果我们有……会是什么样子呢？ 那些失败的案例呢？我觉得 你说得对。我们会看到 那些不善言辞或不幽默的人 很早就表明，那些是文本 永远不会成为情侣的线索。嗯， 所以我们只需要想办法…… 招募这些人加入我们 研究。请提供最后 10 个线程 呃，你知道，就是那些从未成行的约会。 任何地方。 我想稍作休息。 感谢我们的赞助商之一， 元素。 Element 是一种电解质饮料 它拥有你所需的一切，却又没有任何东西。 你没有。这意味着电解质， 钠、镁和钾，全部都在 比例正确，但不含糖。恰当的 水分对大脑和身体至关重要。 功能。即使是轻微的 脱水会降低你的认知能力。 以及身体机能。它还是 获得足够的营养很重要。 电解质。电解质，钠， 镁和钾对人体至关重要 你体内所有细胞的功能 身体，尤其是你的神经元或你的 神经细胞。饮用元素使其 很容易确保您获得 充足的水分和充足的 电解质。我的日子通常是这样开始的。 速度要快，也就是说我必须跳起来 直接投入工作或直接投入锻炼。 所以，为了确保我水分充足，而且 当我有足够的电解质时 早上醒来第一件事，我喝 16 杯水。 加水至 32 盎司，含一个元素 包装袋溶解在其中了。我也喝酒 元素在任何过程中溶解于水中 我正在进行的那种体育锻炼 这样做，尤其是在炎热的天气里，当我…… 大量出汗并流失水分 电解质。 Element 有很多 口味极佳。事实上，我爱 商场。我喜欢西瓜， 覆盆子、柑橘，我真的很喜欢 柠檬水口味。所以，如果你愿意的话 要试用 Element，您可以前往 drinkelement.com/huberman 领取免费元素样品包 任何购买行为。再说一遍，那是 drinkelement.com/huberman 领取免费样品包。是的，我们是 某种程度上倾向于兼容性 当我说“嗯，你知道，如果我要……”的时候， 你知道，问问亲近的家人，你 知道，比如它的优点是什么 你目前的关系，呃，这是一段 女人，她指的是她 本案中的伴侣是男性。壳 他通常会谈论他所做的事情。 他所做的事情以及他能够做的事情 这样做是为了支持可能甚至可能不发生的情况 需要具备说话能力。现在，他是 不是失语症，你知道，嗯，但是你知道， 它是 更像是…… 他做了什么。当我们拥有过 关于[清嗓子]这个的对话 过去曾做过关于某种内容的播客 维系感情之类的东西， 就好像，哦，他们 总是感觉，你知道的， 总有一个人似乎喜欢做这件事 等我从……回来的时候，我已经躺在床上了。 早上上厕所的时候，你会想： “不，该我了。”他们或 另一个人总是负责准备咖啡。 或者有些人说，就是这些小东西。 现象。很少像有时那样。 这是一张便条，但很少像这样 是的，我喜欢你了解他的方式。 一起呃，你知道句子或 比如我喜欢我的方式 喜欢她那种……你知道的 描述你所知道的这件事 它通常与行动有关，至少在某种程度上是这样。 在观察这些特质时 男性伴侣的积极品质 真是太好了。 刻板印象 但我认为它就是这样，它就是…… 就像我脑海中的一扇窗，通往…… 引号和取消引号之间的区别 探索和求偶过程， 虽然求爱过程，什么 人的行为或许比其他因素更重要。 他们说， 以及那种长期的事情， 稳定性的一致性 随着时间的推移，这段关系的发展。 所以，我希望，你知道，这是一个 可惜这些应用没有提供选择功能 呃，行动。唯一的办法是 比如你会说， “好的，如果你要报名的话……” 你知道，这个应用程序，我们会问 你至少要和他/她约会三次， 你知道，任何和你匹配成功的人， 我们想看到你们在这些场合约会。 在截然不同的情况下 重点并不总是在于互相交谈。 其他。那也是你喜欢做的事。 把事情放在一起。”我希望有 就像组装这个宜家家具一样的约会 家具。 难道现在人们都不去徒步旅行了吗？ 去看演出吗？ 是的。是的。不，这样挺好。 而且，至少它还会说话。 互动，但是一种不同的互动方式 交谈和互动。我想要 我想要 例如体能挑战。离开

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this escape room, stuff like that. Anyway, I'm not actually handle. >> Yeah, right. You're right. Yeah. So, you got to be witty, but also not panic. >> Do you suggest that? Is it is it like a first date? >> I don't know. Maybe third date. >> Okay. >> Third date sounds good for escape. I want to be clear. I've never I've only done the the escape room board games. >> You're just throwing people under the bus just to see what happens. Get to that date. Yeah. No, no, I'm just kidding. But like you know events that sporting events I mean things that are um uh that are exciting that you're doing together but also facilitate interaction I think can be really good. It is very very hard though to simulate the patterns of what would it be like to be in a long-term relationship with this person and the 4,000 daily responsibilities that come with that. And I think even when we are really crazy about somebody early on, we try to forecast what that's going to be like as best we can, but we really don't know. And I think the like the beautiful thing but also the challenge that a lot of relationships have is you know what you do is you know like you just described like okay it becomes my job to set out the coffee and it becomes your job to mow the lawn and we create this very elaborate structure that guides not just our day-to-day lives and the crap we have to do but it also guides how we communicate when we communicate what we communicate about. If we create a business together, that can create a relationship that starts to feel like more transactional, that's maybe less warm, has less opportunity for connection as opposed to creating a relationship that builds, you know, time for fun activities together, for fun experiences, or again, I recognize like people are stressed and often working multiple jobs, but at least when we are interacting, are we able to interact about the fun, silly things that brought us together in the first place. Um, I think it's it's very challenging to do these things. When people go to couples therapy and the couples therapy is effective, it's usually because therapists are able to help couples essentially like rewind all the bad patterns they've created and go back to when things were good. uh rediscover what it was that they really appreciated about each other and like recreate their relationship from there in a new way. But yes, many of these things are they're just deeply deeply hard to forecast. >> Yeah. And there's always the natural desire to want to know if one's time and energy is well spent. I mean it's really in some sense the most um important investment is time and energy of I mean and uh it's kind of all we have it's all we have and that's very evolutionary in its core. You talked before about this kind of crystal ball question or um probing for particular disclosures that people are willing or not willing to make as a >> as [snorts] a perhaps better indication of whether somebody is interesting or appropriate. Yeah. >> For you. I realize however that the notion that there's a like a question or a set of questions that would say green light >> is that's not true. That just can't be true. There's probably some answers that are red light. Everyone, you know, knows red light. Hopefully, they're paying attention to that, but they it's the yellow it's the yellow but it's the yellow lights and not knowing what questions to ask to see if there's a sort of green light path forward. Tell me what those questions are. Like, phrased differently. If two people are on a date and they have only a few minutes, it's kind of a speed dating type situation and they need to make a good assessment as to whether or not they genuinely would like to spend more time with the person again. uh what what are the questions they should ask? >> All right. So, I like the questions that are a little bit more offbeat. You know, what people tend to do on speed dates is they they want to find common ground quickly. You know, if it's college students, maybe we're going to talk about their major. Uh do we share a major? No. Uh like pivot. Uh where are you from? And they'll try to find something that they can bond over [snorts] and that can work very well. But I think the core of what we want in an initial interaction with somebody is to take away something that feels like it was at least a little different than all the other interactions that we have. And so sometimes what that means is going a touch deeper than people are comfortable with. Now in in 4 minutes it's tricky if you have a little bit longer like a regular evening length date. I really like the 36 questions test. Like this is the sometimes it's called the fast friends procedure, but these are questions like, you know, what's one thing that you've never told somebody that you've always wanted to tell them and what's stopping you? Or >> people answer that. >> Yeah. I mean, after if you've been hanging out with somebody for 60 to 90 minutes, that is a pretty good way to elicit real depth and give like both people a chance to do some reciprocal self-disclosure cuz that's what people want. That's what people connect over is like I've like I feel like I've just heard you. Maybe it's true, maybe it's not, but I feel like you've just told me something that you haven't told most people and maybe you haven't told anybody. I vividly remember falling for somebody when that moment happened. It's like I really you are telling me this. I I don't I don't think you've ever told anybody this before and it is such a rush. I I think like I don't know, man. The internet, it's like convince us all we care about is like sex and hotness. There is nothing like the rush of having somebody tell you something that they've never told anybody else. And again, this is like the stuff that gets relationships researchers excited because this is what we see in our data. Responsiveness, closeness, like building trust and all of that stuff. Now again, four minutes is really hard. Four minutes you just got to get a little nugget of something that you want to build off later. And maybe that is your hometown and maybe it is like, "Isn't this a weird experience that we're only going to get to chat for 4 minutes, but whenever there are roots to go for a little bit more disclosure, I usually advise that that people go for it. It it it will pay off on average, even if it can feel kind of awkward in the moment." Do you think there's uh more excitement if one gets the sense that the other person is um taking a bit of a risk in disclosing it? Not like I've been dying to tell somebody this and there's never been opportunity. Thanks for giving me the opportunity and >> you know I whatever. I always, you know, wanted to come back in my second life as a guppy or something. I I don't know. I'm picking a trivial example on purpose [laughter] cuz it's not true. Much better tropical fish. Big tropical fish enthusiast. much better freshwater discus. Much better fresh owned by me cuz it would be have a really good life. Um take really good care of my freshwater discus. But in all seriousness, does that mean that people are walking around harboring, especially single people are harboring parts of themselves that they're craving intimacy, you know, that that's of the exchange things that they've never told anyone that they wish they could tell someone, feel safe enough to tell them. Is that what you're talking about? you know, creating a real moment of intimacy early on. That's not physical intimacy. It's >> I don't even know if it's emotional intimacy. It's like it's like human connection, right? It's like I'm a person that's had particular experiences and you're a person that's that's had particular experiences and we have these like narratives and stories about ourselves. >> Again, the science historically has been so focused on traits and I get it. Like I and I understand the evolutionary focus on traits, but man, humans are stories, right? We're narratives and we want other people to be privy to that narrative and then maybe eventually be a part of it. So I think that that is often what can be very powerful. Now for people who are single and they like want to be in a relationship, I do think that it can be that sense that they're lacking. A lot of people are single and are very very happy with their single lives. And I also understand that a lot of people if they're single and they're dating. Look, there's a lot of reasons to be cautious. Forming a relationship is a low base rate event. It doesn't happen all that often. >> And it's time costly. It can be financially costly. It's energetically costly. Exactly. It's very energetically. >> Exactly. Like we don't go around forming relationships with everybody. But I I also happen to think that like once the ball gets rolling, the pull can be very strong. And part of that pull is this this desire to have somebody kind of see me, get me, understand me. I might be talking about securely attached people on average, right? There's always going to be that avoidance pull too, like people need to self-protect to some extent, but the sort of desire to open up and have somebody like really get you, it's it's so core to the relationship science worldview and and I think it says a lot about like who we are as a species and like how we form mating relationships. You've said in um so many words uh before uh that men and women essentially want the same things. >> Yeah. I think that's going to hit some people square in the face and they're going to say that is so not true. Men just want blank. Women just want blank. >> I I'm like on this campaign lately to try and defang
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这种密室逃脱之类的游戏。 总之，我其实并不在场。 是啊，没错。你说得对。是的。所以，你 既要机智，又不能惊慌失措。 你这么建议吗？它像……吗？ 第一次约会？ 我不知道。或许是第三次约会吧。 好的。 第三次约会听起来像是要逃跑的好时机。我 想说清楚。我从未，我只 玩过密室逃脱桌游。 你这是在把人推到一边 坐公交车去看看会发生什么。到达 那个日期。是的。不，不，我只是 开玩笑的。但就像你知道的那些事件一样 体育赛事，我指的是那些…… 嗯，这真令人兴奋，你 共同努力，同时也促进合作 我认为互动会非常好。 然而，模拟起来非常困难。 模式会是什么样的 与此人保持长期关系 人与每日 4000 人 随之而来的责任。 而且我认为，即使我们真的 很早就爱上某人，我们会尝试 预测一下那会是什么样子 我们尽力而为，但我们真的不知道。 我觉得这很美好。 但同时也面临着许多挑战 人际关系中最重要的是你知道你 就像你刚才描述的那样做。 好吧，那就由我来负责安排了。 喝咖啡，然后你的工作就变成了…… 修剪草坪，我们创造了这个非常 精心设计的结构不仅指导着 我们的日常生活和我们做的那些破事 必须这样做，但它也指导我们如何做。 当我们沟通时，我们会交流我们所说的内容。 沟通交流。如果我们创建一个 商业合作， 这可以建立一种关系 开始感觉更像是交易了， 可能没那么暖和，也没那么冷。 联系的机会 与建立关系相反 这样就能积累时间，你知道，可以享受乐趣。 一起进行各种有趣的活动 经历，或者，我再次意识到 人们压力很大，而且经常要工作。 身兼多职，但至少当我们…… 我们能否互动？ 关于那些带来乐趣、傻气的事情 我们最初走到一起。嗯，我 我认为这非常具有挑战性。 这些东西。当人们去参加情侣聚会时 治疗和夫妻治疗是 有效，通常是因为 治疗师能够帮助夫妻 基本上就像把所有坏事都倒回去一样。 他们创造的模式可以追溯到 一切都很顺利的时候。呃，重新发现 他们真正欣赏的是什么 彼此了解，并喜欢重现他们的 从此，关系以一种全新的方式发展。 但是，是的，其中很多事情都是 它们真的非常难…… 预报。 是的。而且还有自然因素。 渴望知道自己的时间和 精力没有白费。我的意思是，这真的 在某种意义上，最重要的 投资就是时间和精力，我的意思是 嗯，这几乎就是我们拥有的一切了。 我们有，而且这在进化方面非常具有前瞻性。 它的核心。你之前也谈到过这件事。 有点像水晶球预测问题，或者嗯 探究是否存在特定披露信息 人们是否愿意 制作成 （嗤笑）或许是一个更好的迹象 某人是否有趣 合适的。是的。 为你。但我意识到， 认为存在一个类似问题或 一系列问题，这些问题会表明绿色 光 那并非事实。那绝对不可能。 真的。可能有一些答案 是红灯。大家都知道。 红灯。希望他们能付钱。 注意到这一点，但那是…… 黄色，是黄色，但它是 黄灯亮着，却不知道发生了什么 要问哪些问题才能确定是否存在 就像一条畅通无阻的绿灯路。告诉 告诉我这些问题是什么。喜欢， 换一种说法。如果两个人 约会时，他们只有几个人。 几分钟之内，这就像是一场快速约会。 这种情况，他们需要做出一个 良好的评估是否 他们真心想多花点钱。 再次与这个人相处的时间。 呃，他们要问什么问题？ 应该问吗？ 好的。所以，我喜欢这些问题。 有点特立独行。你知道， 人们在快速约会中通常会做的事情是 他们想要找到共同点 迅速地。你知道，如果是大学的话。 同学们，或许我们要谈谈 关于他们的专业。呃，我们共享一个 主要的？不。呃，就像枢轴。呃，你们在哪儿？ 你从？他们会努力寻找 他们可以借此增进感情的东西 [嗤笑] 而且这招非常管用。 但我认为我们想要的核心是 与某人的初次互动是 带走一些感觉像是 它至少与以往略有不同。 我们之间的所有其他互动。 所以，有时候这意味着 比人们想象的更深入一些 感觉舒适。现在还有 4 分钟 如果你只有一点点，那就有点棘手了。 长度与普通晚礼服的长度相当 日期。我真的很喜欢这 36 个问题 测试。有时候就是这样。 被称为快速交友程序，但是 这些问题就像，你知道， 你从未告诉过的一件事是什么？ 你一直想成为的人 告诉他们，还有什么阻止你？或者 人们会回答这个问题。 是的。我的意思是，如果你已经…… 和某人一起待 60 到 90 分钟 几分钟之内，这确实是一个不错的方法。 激发真正的深度，并给予两者 人们有机会做一些互惠的事情 自我披露，因为这就是人们所希望的。 想。这就是人们建立联系的原因。 感觉就像……感觉就像我刚刚 听到了。也许是真的，也许是假的。 不，但我感觉你刚才好像已经告诉我了。 你没告诉过大多数人的事 人们，也许你还没告诉过他们。 任何人。我清楚地记得自己爱上了他 当时有人在场。它是 就像你真的在告诉我这些一样。我 我不认为你曾经说过 之前有人遇到过这种情况吗？真是太糟糕了。 匆忙。我感觉我也不知道，伙计。 互联网，就像是要说服我们所有人。 我们关心的就像性和性感一样。 没有什么比拥有的那种快感更让人兴奋的了。 有人告诉你一些他们…… 从未告诉过其他人。再说一遍，这一点 就像那些会变成……的东西 关系研究人员兴奋不已 因为这是我们从数据中看到的。 响应性、亲近感，就像建筑一样 信任之类的东西。现在又来了， 四分钟真的很难。四 几分钟之内你只需要稍微…… 你想要的那点东西 以后再慢慢完善。也许这就是你的 家乡，也许会是这样的：“不是吗？” 这是一种奇怪的经历，我们只是 我有 4 分钟的聊天时间，但是 每当有根要扎的时候 再多透露一点信息，我通常 建议大家放手去做。它 平均而言，这样做会有回报，即使 当时可能会感觉有点尴尬。 你觉得还有更多刺激吗？ 如果一方感觉到另一方 这个人正在冒一些风险。 会公开吗？又不是说我快死了 跟别人说这件事，却从来没有人愿意听。 曾有机会。谢谢你给我 机会和 你知道我无所谓。我总是，你知道的， 在我的第二人生中，我想以这样的身份回归： 孔雀鱼之类的。我不知道。 我故意举个简单的例子。 [笑声] 因为这不是真的。热带地区要好得多。 鱼。热带鱼爱好者。很多 更好的淡水七彩神仙鱼。好多了 全新，归我所有，因为它会有一个 生活真美好。嗯，真的很好 照顾我的淡水七彩神仙鱼。但总而言之 严肃地说，这是否意味着人们 四处走动，尤其是在港口附近 单身人士正在酝酿 他们渴望拥有的自身某些部分 亲密关系，你知道，那就是…… 交换他们从未透露过的事情 他们想告诉的任何人 找个人倾诉，觉得足够安全。 你指的是这个吗？你 知道，这创造了一个真正的亲密时刻 早期。那不是身体上的亲密行为。 它是 我甚至不知道这算不算情绪化 亲密关系。它就像人类一样 有联系，对吧？我感觉自己就像个 有过特殊经历的人 而你是一个曾经……的人 特殊的经历，我们拥有这些 比如关于……的叙事和故事 我们自己。 再说，从历史上看，科学一直是 太注重特质了，我能理解。喜欢 我理解进化论 关注特征，但是，人类啊 故事，对吧？我们是叙事，我们 希望其他人也知道这一点。 叙述，然后最终可能成为一个 其中一部分。所以我认为那就是 通常情况下，这可能非常强大。现在是 单身人士，他们喜欢 我觉得谈恋爱这件事，确实如此。 可能是那种感觉，他们 缺乏。很多人都是单身， 他们对自己的单曲非常满意 生命。而且我也明白这一点。 如果这些人是单身，而且他们是 约会。 你看，有很多理由…… 谨慎。建立关系是一种 低基准率事件。这种事不会发生。 经常如此。 而且很费时间。它可以是 经济成本高昂。它充满活力 昂贵。确切地。它非常 精力充沛地。 确切地。就像我们不会到处结盟一样。 与所有人保持良好关系。但我 也碰巧认为，就像曾经那样 球一旦滚动起来，拉力就会非常大。 强的。而这种吸引力的一部分就在于此 这种渴望被人看到 了解我，理解我。我可能是 谈论安全型依恋者 平均而言，对吧？总会有去处 也想成为那种逃避的拉力，就像 人们需要自我保护。 程度，但那种想要开放的愿望。 起来，让某个人真正地…… 你，这才是核心所在 关系科学世界观以及我 我认为这充分说明了我们是什么样的人。 作为一个物种，就像我们形成的方式一样 交配关系。 你已经用很多话表达过了…… 在此之前，男人和女人基本上 想要的东西一样。 是的。我认为这会对某些人产生影响。 人们直视着他们的脸，他们是 我要说，这完全不是事实。男人 只需要空白页。女人只想一片空白。 我最近一直在参与这个活动 尝试解除其威胁

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the trolls. Yeah. >> That seem to have like it's like it we were in high school. Let's leave junior high school. Let's go to high school. And there were like a bunch of like really awful people. Let's evenly distribute it between the sexes. Let's just do that for fairness sake. Yeah. >> And they're like constantly pointing out how >> these people are always bad and extractive and these people are always, you know, uh, cold and avoidant and like and and if those narratives were just constantly like posted on the walls and like and talked about in the uh over lunch and whispered in the hallways, it would be very poisonous to the whole environment. And that's kind of what the internet is. and then the traditional news, but also some podcasts, not this podcast, but will kind of amplify these narratives because they feel juicy. They feel uh and they get clicks. >> And I think we all have an innate desire to avoid danger. So, we like know [clears throat] where where this stuff is. But when you step back, you go, right? Like most people are pretty well-meaning. Most people are looking for good partnership. Nobody's perfect, but uh where people make mistakes. Most people are like looking to at least modify their behavior over time. Like it's all reasonably benevolent, but then there are these like >> kind of nasty characters out there >> and we give them so much credit and we give them so much power >> and they just plain suck. >> Yeah. >> So >> men and women want the same things. Let's shut them up for a second and ask what the data say. This was one of the first things I studied when I started looking at attraction like almost 20 years ago now. And in part because I found the gender differences fascinating. It was very clear for decades and decades that if you ask men and women about the qualities they want in a partner that you'll see these differences show up pretty routinely and they are differences that then in the hands of nefarious characters online get spun out into exactly the narrative that you're describing. But the basic data on what men and women say they want, it's there. Men will say they care about attractiveness in a partner more than women. And women will say they care about earning potential in a partner more than men. Now, I'm phrasing that in a particular way. And I'm I'm saying what people say they want because I'm critiquing the experimental paradigms that were used. It usually had people rating a bunch of traits on scales. And as a psychologist, I have no problem with that. I'm very interested in people's subjective experiences and I use scales all the time. But we wondered that's different than or it might be different than what happens when you're meeting people face to face and you're reacting to a set of people who might be very attractive or of middling attractiveness or not very attractive at all. And that to me seems closer to capturing what people actually want. Like if you meet 10 women, how much does their attractiveness drive your desire to date them? How much does attractiveness affect whether you want a second date with them or not? So, we ran speed dating studies to try to capture exactly this phenomenon. I'll make it about earning prospects because it's really the same the same thing. So, we have these men and they go speed dating and some of these women are very ambitious. They're going to be lawyers and doctors. Others are a little bit less ambitious. And what you'd see is that the men tended to like the women a little bit more to the extent that they were ambitious. It wasn't a huge driver of their liking, but it was definitely there and it was definitely positive. But then when we flipped it and we looked at what the women were drawn to, not what they said, but what they were drawn to, they also tended to like the ambitious men a little bit. And the magnitude of that preference was identical. And it's been 20 years of this where we've looked at ongoing relationships. We've looked at um you know 40 something countries throughout the world. That narrative uh plays out every time. There's no gender differences in the extent to which these traits appeal to men and women when they're evaluating like real people they've actually met. Online is different. What people say they want is different. but real people that you've at least met face to face seems to dramatically reduce the power of the gender differences and the appeal of these traits. >> Fascinating and runs countercurrent to I think what many people including I have heard out there. >> Yeah. But but I think the like I think the key lesson here is like >> believe your subjective experience when you're interacting with somebody and you're getting to know them. And maybe that subjective experience is like, "She's hot, but I am not feeling this." And maybe that subjective experience is like, you know, I know that maybe to some people he looks like he doesn't have his life together, but I really see a spark there. If you trust that experience, I think that's likely to go better. And we don't have an experience to go on like that when it's online. When it's online, it's very easy to put people in boxes, put people in groups, and then make the groups fight each other. And I too am very distressed about all the heteropessimism. >> Yeah. Right. That's It's not my term, but it's one of my favorite terms. >> Do you know who coined it? >> I know the year is like 2019, but I forget the author. Yeah, look it up. >> Great term. Heteropet. Right. It's like men and women can't get along. How could they get along? They've got different interests and different priorities. Look, in the close relationships realm, it's not true. And that's the realm I know. Men and women, they want the same things out of their relationships. Yes, there are gender differences and like the thresholds for sex and especially early on that can be that can be really messy. Um, but overall I see a lot of similarity and a lot of potential for these the bonds that men and women form to do great things for people and women and women and men and men and any gendered combination that you want to come up with. Um, I think we're pair bonding creatures. We get a lot of joy and a lot of fulfillment out of that. And I want to see men and women find a way to make it work again. springboarding off of the heteropesses. Yeah. term, which is great because it encapsulates so much even though what it encapsulates is definitely not great. Yeah. The term I'm about to use is gonna sound um >> like it means something uh it doesn't. But is there any research on homopessimism, which is not the same as homophobia? Homopim meaning I'm not aware because I happen to be heterosexual, but I have homosexual friends, men and women. I'm not hearing them talk a lot about how dating culture is much worse >> now. >> I hear this too. >> But >> then again, uh sample size isn't that great here. >> So I don't know because a lot of the same things apply in terms of like apps. Uh sure cultures vary. Yeah. >> But there are some constants in this picture. Um so in any research yours or others research about um homosexual dating and couples is there pessimism guys saying well guys these days and women saying in uh yeah lesbian women let's just you know for lack of a better term um saying >> women these days >> I don't think that's out there nearly to the same extent. I think some of the like interesting components that you see out there is look the apps I think did they did a lot of good in the world for people who you know just felt like their social networks had no options in them but especially for people who might have been living in places that were genuinely unsafe for gays and lesbians and might have helped them to find romantic partners. So like um I always want to be the first one to give the apps credit for that for providing those kinds of opportunities. Classically speaking, what you tend to see is that, you know, I've talked a little bit about the the time frame as people form relationships in the first place. And that sometimes we get locked into this idea that it's like, oh, it's going to happen in an instant and and now you're together. But the reality is it's often an elongated process. That process has tended historically to be even longer for folks who are gays and lesbians forming same gender relationships. And I think part of that is something that you you might even call like a bigotry tax because if you lived in a place where it was like vaguely dangerous to admit your same-sex attractions, you got to be really careful before you start disclosing how you feel about somebody because rejection doesn't just mean rejection. Rejection is maybe actually carries other threats and stigma and all of these other things with it. >> Loss of jobs. Exactly. We've seen examples of that like it's sort of again it plays on stereotypes but um I'm I'm going to assume some of it is true. Uh like in in Mad Men, right? There's a disclosure and then it doesn't go well. >> Right. Right. >> Yeah. It doesn't go well. >> I love the movie Call Me By Your Name. >> I don't think I've seen it. >> Yeah. It's it's it's about 10 years old. It's it's Luca Guadanino and and he's a fabulous director, but it's about two men who get together over the course of a summer. young men who find it's it's one of Timothy Shalamé's earlier movies >> and one of the things they come to regret is that like we didn't disclose our feelings sooner but it's it the movie was taking place in the 1980s so you had to be really careful with whether you were going to be upfront about how you were feeling about somebody. wasn't uh in a place where you can't be fully confident that you're
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喷子们。是的。 看起来好像就是这样，我们 当时还在上高中。我们先离开初级组吧。 中学。我们去上高中吧。 而且还有一大堆…… 真是些糟糕透顶的人。让我们均匀地 男女平等分配。我们开始吧 为了公平起见，就这么做吧。是的。 他们总是不断地指出 如何 这些人总是坏人， 掠夺成性，这些人总是如此。 你知道，呃，冷漠、回避，还有…… 如果那些叙述仅仅是 经常像贴在墙上那样 就像在呃……中谈论的那样 午餐时间，人们在走廊里低声交谈。 对整个系统来说都将是剧毒的。 环境。这就是…… 互联网就是。然后是传统的 新闻，但也包括一些播客，不是这个。 播客，但会放大这些 因为它们听起来很有意思，所以就讲故事。他们 感觉……然后他们就获得了点击量。 我认为我们每个人都有一种与生俱来的渴望 为了避免危险。所以，我们喜欢知道 [清嗓子] 这东西在哪儿？ 是。但当你退后一步，你就会发现， 正确的？像大多数人一样，很漂亮 出于好意。大多数人都在寻找 为了建立良好的合作关系。没有人是完美的。 但是，呃，人们会犯错的地方。最多 人们似乎至少会期待 随着时间的推移，他们的行为会发生改变。喜欢 这一切都相当善意，但是…… 有这些类似 外面确实有一些很讨厌的人。 我们非常赞赏他们，而且我们 赋予他们如此大的权力 它们简直太烂了。 是的。 所以 男人和女人想要的东西是一样的。 我们先让他们闭嘴一会儿，然后问问 数据说明了什么。这是其中之一 我刚开始学习时首先要学习的东西 看着景点就像快 20 岁一样 那是几年前的事了。部分原因是因为我 发现了性别差异 迷人。这一点非常清楚。 几十年来，如果你问男人…… 以及女性想要的品质 在合作伙伴身上你会看到这些 差异经常出现，而且 它们是彼此之间的差异。 网络上的不法分子会如何利用这些手段 最终演变成这样一种叙事： 你描述的就是这种情况。但关于基本数据 男人和女人说他们想要什么，那就是 那里。男人会说他们关心 伴侣的吸引力比其他因素更重要 女性。女性会说她们关心 关于合伙人的收入潜力 比男性多。现在，我这样表述： 一种特殊的方式。我是说 人们说他们想要什么，因为我 对实验范式的批判 已被使用。它通常有人 对一系列特征进行评分。和 作为一名心理学家，我没有任何问题。 就这样。我对此非常感兴趣 人们的主观体验和我 经常使用秤。但我们不禁想问 那和……不同，或者可能是…… 这与你发生的情况不同 与人面对面交流，你就会…… 对一群可能 非常有吸引力或中等 吸引力或不太有吸引力 全部。在我看来，这似乎更接近于 抓住人们的真实需求。 比如，如果你遇到 10 个女人，你会付出多少代价？ 它们的魅力激发了你的欲望 和他们约会？多少钱 吸引力会影响你是否想要 是否和他们进行第二次约会？所以，我们跑了 快速约会研究旨在捕捉 正是这种现象。我会做到的 关于收入前景，因为这是 完全一样，一模一样。所以，我们 这些男士会去参加快速约会。 其中一些女性非常 雄心勃勃。他们以后会成为律师。 以及医生。其他人则有点 不那么雄心勃勃。你会看到的是 男人们往往喜欢女人 在某种程度上，他们 他们雄心勃勃。这并非一个主要驱动因素。 他们喜欢，但这绝对是 在那里，结果绝对是积极的。 但当我们把它翻转过来时，我们 观察女性被什么吸引， 重要的不是他们说了什么，而是他们是什么样的人。 他们被吸引，也往往喜欢…… 有点野心的男人。以及 这种偏好的程度是 完全相同的。已经过去 20 年了。 在这里，我们一直在关注持续进行的情况。 人际关系。我们已经看过你了。 了解遍布全球的四十多个国家 世界。那个故事就这样上演了。 每次。没有性别之分。 这些差异的程度 某些特质会吸引男性和女性 他们像对待真人一样进行评估 他们其实见过面。在线是 不同的。人们所说的他们想要的是 不同的。但你认识的那些真实的人 至少面对面交流似乎是 大幅降低功率 性别差异及其吸引力 这些特质。 引人入胜，而且与我的想法背道而驰。 想想包括我在内的许多人都有 听说了。 是的。但是，我觉得就像我想的那样 这里的关键教训就像 相信你的主观体验 你正在与某人互动， 你正在逐渐了解他们。或许 那种主观体验就像是， “她身材火辣，但我对她没感觉。” 或许那种主观体验是 你知道，我知道也许…… 有些人觉得他不像他 他把生活安排得井井有条，但我真的觉得 那里有火花。 如果你相信那种经验，我认为 那样的话情况可能会好转。 我们没有任何经验可以借鉴。 就像在网上那样。当它是 在网络上，很容易把人拉进来 把人分成小组，然后装箱。 让各团体互相战斗。我 我也对这一切感到非常苦恼。 异质悲观主义。 是的。正确的。那不是我用的词。 但这是我最喜欢的词汇之一。 你知道是谁创造了这个词吗？ 我知道现在是 2019 年，但是 忘记作者吧。是的，查一下就知道了。 很棒的词。异形体。正确的。就像 男人和女人无法和平相处。怎么可能 他们相处融洽吗？他们有不同的 兴趣爱好和不同的优先事项。 你看，在亲密关系领域， 这不是真的。而这正是我所处的领域。 知道。无论男女，他们想要的都一样。 他们之间的关系中存在着一些问题。是的， 存在性别差异，而且 性行为的阈值，尤其是 早期阶段，这可能真的会 凌乱的。嗯，但总的来说，我看到了很多 相似性以及巨大的潜力 这些是男女之间建立的纽带。 为人民和女性做伟大的事 女人和男人，男人和任何 你想要的性别组合 想出一个办法。嗯，我觉得我们是一对。 建立联系的生物。我们获得了许多快乐 从中获得了极大的满足感。 我希望看到男人和女人找到…… 让它重新运转起来的方法。 以异质体为跳板。 是的。这个词很好，因为它 它涵盖的内容如此之多，尽管它是什么。 封装绝对不是个好主意。 是的。我即将使用的术语是“将会”。 嗯…… 好像它意味着什么似的，呃，其实并没有。 但是，是否有相关的研究呢？ 同性恋悲观主义，这与 恐同症？ “我不是”的意思是“我不是”。 知道是因为我恰好 我是异性恋，但我有同性恋倾向 朋友们，无论男女。我没听见 他们经常谈论约会文化 情况更糟。 现在。 我也听说了。 但 不过话说回来，呃，样本量并不是那么重要。 这里很棒。 所以我不知道，因为很多 同样的情况也适用于类似应用程序。 当然，文化各不相同。是的。 但其中也有一些不变的因素。 图片。嗯，所以在任何研究中，你的或 其他人研究同性恋 约会和情侣之间是否存在悲观情绪 现在的男人们都在说，嗯，现在的男人们…… 女人们说，呃，是的，女同性恋女人 这么说吧，因为实在找不到更好的办法了。 术语嗯，说 如今的女性 我不认为这种事已经完全发生了。 程度相同。我认为其中一些 比如你看到的那些有趣的部件 看看那些应用程序，我觉得它们确实有效。 他们为世界做了很多好事。 你认识的那些人，他们感觉就像是 社交网络没有其他选择。 但尤其对于那些可能拥有 一直居住在以下地方 对同性恋者来说确实不安全 或许还能帮助他们找到 恋爱对象。所以，嗯，我总是 想成为第一个给予的人 应用程序为此提供的这些功能获得了积分。 各种机会。 从传统意义上讲，你倾向于 你看，我已经谈过了 简单介绍一下时间框架 人们在第一阶段建立关系。 地方。有时候我们会陷入困境。 陷入这种想法，就像，哦，它是 瞬间发生，而且 现在你们在一起了。但事实是 这通常是一个漫长的过程。那 历史上，这一过程往往是 对于同性恋者来说，时间甚至更长。 女同性恋者组成同性 人际关系。我认为部分原因在于此 这是你可能甚至会做的事情 称之为歧视税，因为如果你 住在一个像……的地方 承认自己是同性恋有点危险 景点，你必须非常 在开始披露之前务必谨慎 你对某人的感觉是因为 拒绝并不一定意味着拒绝。 拒绝或许真的会带来影响。 其他威胁和污名以及所有 以及其他一些东西。 失业。确切地。我们已经看到 例如，这有点像又一次 它利用了刻板印象，但是嗯，我，我 我姑且认为其中一些是真的。呃 就像《广告狂人》里那样，对吧？有一个 披露信息后，结果并不理想。 正确的。正确的。 是的。情况不太顺利。 我非常喜欢电影《请以你的名字呼唤我》。 我好像没看过。 是的。它大概有 10 年历史了。 是卢卡·瓜达尼诺，他是一位 导演很棒，但这部电影讲的是两个人的故事。 在一段时间内聚在一起的男人们 一个夏天。年轻人发现它就是这样 蒂莫西·沙拉梅早期电影之一 而他们最终会遇到的事情之一 遗憾的是，我们没有披露 我们的感觉来得更快，但就是这样。 电影的背景设定在 20 世纪 80 年代。 你必须非常小心 无论你是否打算坦诚相待 关于你当时的感受 某人。当时并不在某个地方，你 不能完全确信你是

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have a sense of safety, it could be really dangerous. So that's an important difference that we see and I think the apps were really good at helping people to uh to come together in that sense. I have a question about um financial stability and level. >> Yeah, >> you mentioned there aren't real big gender differences there. Earlier we were saying scientists are always uh doing the opposite of improv. Instead of yes and they always say yeah but you know what yeah but what about it's it's a it's in our training >> income level on its own or amount of money that somebody has in my mind is somewhat informative. >> What's more informative is having the additional data point of where they started out. Oh, interesting. >> Because people with money who um didn't have to work very hard to get it, >> it's a different picture. Now, some people might say like, "Who cares?" And I will make the argument that some people some people who had to make a work very hard to make their money >> often times are still in the working hard mode. The the the the twist in the in the high level of income thing like that. The additional question that's useful is how much free time do you have? >> Yeah. A lot of the people I know who have a lot of money, they don't have a lot of free time. So, if people pair up with them thinking that they're going to feel very financially secure and have a lot of stuff, that might be true. >> But, um, how often they're going to see their partner or the the co-parent of their kids is an important question. And this extends both ways. like so many of these attributes that in the abstract sound really good to us, but then when you actually put it in a person that also has all these other attributes and things going on, you realize like, wait a minute, their cutthroat ambition actually wasn't that great, right? Because it means that they're never around. I think for this reason it can be very challenging especially if you're looking at long-term relationships to take things like like a person's um income level and use that to forecast like for example how their partner is going to feel about them. I mean, we've done some of this work, indeed some of the work looking at gender differences and like the reality is like a person's objective income, it has very very small effects on how their partners feel about them. The bigger effects are things like, you know, if now we scaffold up and look at like socioeconomic status. So, do you have the resources to get by as a couple? That can be very challenging for people. I've seen numerous examples of uh couples where the man loses his work >> and if he's not able to get stable work again reasonably soon. >> Yeah. >> In most of the >> this isn't a peer-reviewed study. Most of the examples I can think of um the couple eventually dissolved >> and it wasn't necessarily for a lack of enough resources. Families were able to help etc. Um and of course we could talk about depression. We [clears throat] could talk about some other thing that might have happened or many things that happened, but is there a sex difference there? The part that I find the most intuitive about these examples is that when a man loses his job like that, and I love that there are other resources around, so we know that that's not the exact problem. My guess is that the challenges are coming more from his like genuine troubling like loss of identity, loss of self. what am I going to do with myself? And less maybe not zero, but less about his uh partner thinking, oh, now he's no longer a provider. And that's just generally my bias from what I see in the science, which is when tragedies befall us, they affect our perceptions especially strongly. So this guy is going to feel this pretty hard that he's lost his job. Stepping back and looking at the broader picture of the data, it used to be true that marriages were more fragile when the woman earned more than the man in the marriage. But this stopped being true in the '9s. So that gender difference doesn't exist anymore. And I think it's it's easy to surmise. I don't know if the sociologists who studied this have drawn exactly this conclusion, but it's easy to posit that what's happening there is that people in general have gotten more comfortable with the gender imbalanced relationships. And in the '9s, we were still getting used to this idea. Um, today, even if the average couple, the man earns more than the woman, you do see that because there is a gender difference in the in income levels on average. But in education, it's flipped now, right? women, at least in younger couples, the woman is more likely to be educated than the man. >> More educated or or educated period. >> More educated than the man in the relationship, right? So, so women are earning more of the, you know, uh, higher degrees. So, if there's a mismatch, probably the woman has more education than the guy. That's not a risk factor relative to if they were the same level, relative to if, you know, he were higher. It just doesn't really seem to be doing anything. I know we can like get really nervous about like what does it mean for men's desiraability if they're not ambitious. Like I get that if men are not out there like making things of themselves, I'm not worried about the women getting a better education than them. I think it's important for men to have a sense of purpose. I think trade schools can be awesome, but the mismatches in the level of education and in the level of income, those don't spell a problem. We just got to get like men feeling good about themselves again. >> And the data say they're not. >> Yeah. I mean, I think that's what you see. I mean, the data that concern me the most are that men and I think especially low SCEs men, they're the ones that feel like their social networks are gone. They don't know where to go to get any kind of companionship. So, if they're really feeling that acute sense of loneliness, of lack of belonging, you know, among like real people in their lives, um that's the thing I worry about because then that's going to affect your sense of self. that's going to affect, you know, all of your ambitions and in really bad cases might, you know, push people to some of those nastier corners of the internet. I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, Function. Function provides over 160 advanced lab tests to give you a clear snapshot of your bodily health. This snapshot gives you insights into your heart health, your hormone health, autoimmune function, nutrient levels, and much more. They've also recently added access to advanced MRI and CT scans. Function not only provides testing of over 160 biomarkers key to your physical and mental health. It also analyzes these results and provides recommendations for improving your health from top doctors. For example, in a recent test with function, I learned that some of my blood lipids were slightly out of range. As a result, I decided to start supplementing with nattokinise, which can naturally help reduce LDL cholesterol. And it did. In a follow-up test, I could confirm that this strategy worked. My blood lipids are now back exactly where I want them. Comprehensive lab testing of the sort that function offers is just so important for health. I mean, how else are you going to know what's going on under the hood? And while I've been doing blood work for years, it used to be timeconuming, complicated, and expensive. In fact, I used to spend thousands of dollars per year trying to get this kind of data. And the data, frankly, were not all that good. But now with Function, it's extremely easy and affordable. A function membership is only a dollar a day, $365 a year. And if you think about the information it provides and the health challenges it helps you avoid and the proactive things that it can do for you to enhance your health, I truly look at it as a savings. To learn more, visit functionhealth.com/huberman and use the code hubman for a $50 credit towards your membership. Again, that's functionhealth.com/huberman. in the kind of classic pure stereotypical narrative, you know, men who were slightly older had more resources. >> Yeah. >> This isn't always true. >> But there's this what apparently based on your work is a uh myth that women desire older men. Uh men desire younger women. >> Yeah. >> Your work points to the possibility that there is no gender differences in attraction to younger partners. >> Yeah. And look, let me say that this is I think one of the more tenant >> and it's a big and it's a big sample size 4000. >> I'm like so and uh I'll weave a quick anecdote. There's this guy at the gym that I sometimes go to. >> He's probably in his like 70s or something and he's in >> what great shape. He's retired. He made money. He's enjoying life. He's got grandkids. He's like he just seems like I don't know him that well, but it seems like he's really got it together and he's really loving life. And I always say, uh, what brings you here every day? You know, I figured it would be like, why it just feels so good. And he just always says the same thing. He always just says, I don't want to lose my wife to a younger guy. And I always laugh and I go, >> then like I know a lot about the contour of his life. And maybe there's something he's not disclosing, but you know, anyone would say like this guy's just totally got it made. He's in and he's, you know, I again I don't know the details of his life and I shouldn't, but I know enough about it that, you know, he's checked off all the boxes three or four times and then had the wisdom in my opinion to not just keep working like a maniac and just spend time with his kids and grandkids and his wife. But he always answers the exact same way. How's it going? He goes, "Pretty good. Just don't want to lose my wife to younger guys. So, I'm here again today." >> Let me tell you about this study. And look, again, I'm a scientist and sometimes the data I'm like, "Huh? You don't say. I didn't see this one coming. I mentioned this earlier. So, we
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有安全感，这可能是 非常危险。所以，这很重要 我们看到的差异，我认为是 应用程序在帮助人们方面真的很好。 呃，从这个意义上说，走到一起。我 我有个关于财务方面的问题。 稳定性和水平度。 是的， 你提到过没有真正的大 性别差异在那里。之前我们 我们说科学家总是呃 做与即兴表演相反的事情。而不是 是的，他们总是说“是啊”，但是你 我知道，是啊，但是……那又怎样呢？ 这是我们的培训内容之一 收入水平本身或金额 我脑海中某人拥有的钱是 有点参考价值。 更有价值的信息是拥有 他们所在位置的附加数据点 开始了。哦，有意思。 因为那些有钱人，他们……没有 必须非常努力才能得到它， 情况完全不同。现在，一些 人们可能会说：“谁在乎呢？”和 我将论证某些 有些人不得不做出一些 他们非常努力地赚钱 很多时候仍在工作中 困难模式。剧情的转折点 在高收入水平方面，比如 那。另一个问题是…… 有用的是，你有多少空闲时间？ 有？ 是的。我认识的很多人都 他们有很多钱，但他们没有 有很多空闲时间。所以，如果人们结对 他们认为自己将会 感觉经济上非常有安全感，并且拥有 很多事情，可能都是真的。 但是，嗯，他们会多久见一次呢？ 他们的伴侣或共同抚养人 他们的孩子是一个重要的问题。和 这种说法是双向的。就像很多…… 这些属性在抽象层面上 听起来确实不错，但是当 你实际上把它放在了一个人身上 它还具备所有这些其他属性， 事情正在发生，你会意识到，等等 一分钟，他们冷酷无情的野心 其实也没那么好，对吧？ 因为这意味着他们永远不会 大约。我认为正是出于这个原因 这可能会非常具有挑战性，尤其是在…… 你着眼于长远发展 建立关系就像…… 这个人的收入水平，并以此为依据 例如，预测他们的 伴侣会对他们产生这种感觉。我 也就是说，我们已经完成了一部分工作， 事实上，一些研究工作着眼于…… 性别差异以及现实 就像一个人的客观收入一样，它 对他们的影响非常小。 伴侣们对他们的看法。更大的 效果就像，你知道，如果 现在我们搭建脚手架，看看会是什么样子。 社会经济地位。所以，你有吗？ 作为一对伴侣，你们有足够的资源维持生活吗？ 这对人们来说可能非常具有挑战性。 我见过很多这样的例子。 夫妻中，男方失业的案例 如果他找不到稳定的工作。 不久后又会再次出现。 是的。 在大多数情况下 这不是一项经过同行评审的研究。最多 我能想到的例子是…… 这对夫妇最终分手了 这并非一定是由于缺乏 资源充足。家庭能够 帮忙等等。嗯，当然我们也可以聊聊。 关于抑郁症。我们[清嗓子] 还可以谈谈其他事情 可能发生过很多事情，或者很多其他的事情。 这种情况发生了，但是否存在性别差异？ 那里？我发现最 这些例子的直观之处在于： 当一个人像这样失去工作时， 我很高兴还有其他资源。 周围，所以我们知道那不是…… 正是这个问题。我的猜测是…… 挑战更多地来自他 真正令人困扰的事情，例如身份认同的丧失， 失去自我。我该怎么办？ 我？而且可能不是零，但更少。 不太在意他的伴侣怎么想，哦， 现在他不再是家里的经济支柱了。和 那只是我个人的一些偏见而已。 我在科学中看到，那就是当 悲剧降临到我们身上，它们影响着我们 尤其强烈地感受到这一点。所以这个 这家伙肯定会很难受。 他失业了。 退后一步，从更广阔的视角来看 数据图表，以前确实如此。 那时婚姻更加脆弱 这名女子的收入比男子高。 婚姻。但这种情况不再发生了。 90 年代确实如此。所以，性别 区别已不复存在。我 我觉得很容易推断出来。我不 知道研究过的社会学家们是否 由此得出的结论正是如此。 但很容易假设什么是 那里发生的事情是，人们 大家已经变得更加放松了。 性别失衡 人际关系。而在 90 年代，我们是 还在慢慢接受这个想法。 嗯，今天， 即使是普通的夫妻，男人 你看，他挣的钱比女人多。 因为存在性别 收入水平的差异 平均的。但在教育领域，情况却恰恰相反。 现在对吧？至少在年轻女性中， 在夫妻关系中，女性更有可能…… 比那男人更有学问。 受过更多教育，或者说受过教育的时期。 比那个人更有学问 是恋爱关系，对吧？所以，所以女性是 赚取更多，你知道，呃， 更高学位。所以，如果存在 不匹配，可能是女方更多。 比他受的教育程度高。 那不是风险因素 相对于它们处于同一水平的情况而言， 相对于他是否……你知道， 更高。似乎并非如此 做任何事。我知道我们可以喜欢 我真的会很紧张，比如，到底是什么？ 这意味着男性的吸引力 他们没有雄心壮志。我明白这一点。 如果男人不喜欢做这件事，那就说明他们没有机会。 事情本身，我并不担心。 关于女性获得更好待遇的问题 比他们受过更好的教育。我认为是 对男人来说，拥有这种意识很重要 目的。我认为职业学校可以 很棒，但是关卡设计存在一些不匹配之处。 教育程度和收入水平， 这些并不代表有问题。我们刚到 像男人一样感觉良好 他们又变回了自己。 但数据显示并非如此。 是的。我的意思是，我觉得那就是你 看。我的意思是，那些令我担忧的数据。 大多数人都是男性，而且我认为 尤其是低 SCE 的男性，他们是 那些感觉像是他们的社交 网络已不复存在。他们不知道在哪里 去寻求任何形式的陪伴。 所以，如果他们真的感觉那么强烈的话。 孤独感，缺乏感 归属感，你知道，就像真正的人一样 他们生活中的人，嗯，就是这些 我担心的就是这件事，因为那样的话…… 这会影响你的自我认知。 那将会影响到，你知道，所有的一切。 你的野心，以及在非常糟糕的情况下。 可能会，你知道，把人们推向某些方面 互联网上那些阴暗的角落。 我想稍作休息。 感谢我们的赞助商 Function。 功能提供超过 160 个高级实验室 测试旨在为您提供清晰的概览 你的身体健康。此快照显示 让你更深入地了解你的心脏健康， 你的激素健康，自身免疫性疾病 功能、营养水平等等 更多的。他们最近还增加了访问权限 先进的核磁共振成像和计算机断层扫描。功能 不仅提供超过 160 种测试 生物标志物对您的身体和 心理健康。它还分析了这些 结果并提供建议 向顶尖医生咨询，改善您的健康。 例如，在最近的一次测试中…… 功能方面，我了解到我的一些 血脂略微超出正常范围。 因此，我决定开始 补充纳豆激酶， 可以自然地帮助降低低密度脂蛋白胆固醇（LDL）。 胆固醇。确实如此。在后续研究中 经过测试，我可以确认这种策略有效。 成功了。我的血脂已经恢复正常了。 正是我想要的位置。综合的 实验室测试，例如功能性测试 食物对健康至关重要。 我的意思是，不然你怎么知道呢？ 底层究竟发生了什么？和 我一直在做血液检查 多年来，这曾经非常耗时。 复杂且昂贵。事实上，我 过去常常花费数千美元 我花了一年时间才弄到这类数据。 坦白说，这些数据并非完全如此。 好的。但现在有了 Function，情况就不同了。 极其简单且价格实惠。一个 会员资格只需一美元。 每天 365 美元，每年 365 美元。如果你仔细想想…… 它提供的信息以及 它能帮助你避免健康挑战。 它能做的那些积极主动的事情 为了增强您的健康，我真心希望您能这样做。 把它当作一种储蓄。了解更多信息，请访问 functionhealth.com/huberman 使用代码 hubman 可获得 50 美元抵用金 您的会员资格即将生效。再说一遍，那是 functionhealth.com/huberman。 经典纯粹的 刻板印象，你知道，男人 他们年纪稍长一些 拥有更多资源。 是的。 情况并非总是如此。 但显然还有基于此的东西 关于你工作中的女性问题，这是一个谬论。 喜欢年长的男人。男人喜欢更年轻的女人。 女性。 是的。 你的研究表明，有可能 性别方面没有差异 对年轻伴侣的吸引力。 是的。你看，让我说一下，这是 我认为其中一个比较多的租户 这是一个很大的样本。 尺寸 4000。 我就是这样，呃，我会快速编织 轶事。健身房里有这么一个人 我有时会去那里。 他大概七十多岁了吧。 有什么东西，他进去了。 身材真好。他已经退休了。他做了 钱。他很享受生活。他有 孙辈。他看起来就像…… 我不太了解他，但似乎 感觉他真的把一切都安排妥当了。 他真的很热爱生活。而我总是 呃，请问，是什么让您每天来这里？ 你知道，我当时觉得大概会是这样， 为什么感觉这么好。他只是 总是说同样的话。他总是 只说，我不想失去我的妻子 对一个年轻点的年轻人来说。我总是笑， 我走了， 然后就好像我对轮廓了解很多一样。 他的一生。或许还有什么呢？ 他没有透露，但你知道的。 任何人都会说，这家伙简直就是…… 完全搞定了。他已经入选了，而且他， 你知道，我又不知道了 我不该透露他生活的细节，但是…… 我对此有所了解，你知道的。 他已经完成了所有三个或三个选项。 四次，然后我才领悟到我的智慧。 认为不应该只是继续像……一样工作 他是个疯子，只想多花时间陪陪孩子。 还有孙辈和他的妻子。但他 总是给出完全相同的答案。怎么样？ 会怎么样？他说：“还不错。就……” 我不想失去我的妻子，让她嫁给更年轻的人。 伙计们。所以，我今天又来这里了。 让我来给你介绍一下这项研究。和 再说一遍，我是一名科学家， 有时候我看到这些数据会想，“哈？你 别说。我真没想到会发生这种事。 我之前提到过这一点。所以，我们

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partnered up with folks who do matchmaking. So, these are people who are paying for a service because they want to be in a long-term relationship. And so, they will set people on dates and they've got a whole pool that they're working with. And within that pool, the men who are searching for dates are older than the women by about four years on average. Okay? So that's that's what they've got to work with. And they set people up on these dates. And so most of the time the woman is going to be younger than the man, but there's a range. Sometimes the woman is much younger than the guy. And sometimes the woman is the same age as the guy. And sometimes the woman's even a little older than the guy. All right? So what you'd expect to see is that if men are looking for younger women and women are looking for older men, then when we look at how the age of the partner affects whether you want to go on a second date with this person, it should be the younger folks appeal to the men more and the older folks appeal to the women more. But that wasn't what we saw. We saw that the younger folks appeal to the men more. And by the way, it's not a huge effect. It's not like the gross stereotype that's out there. Men are a little bit more interested in the women to the extent that they're younger, but it's not gigantic. Women are doing the same thing. They're a little bit more interested in the younger guys. They don't say that on paper. In fact, sometimes they're like, "Don't set me up with the younger guys." And then they do and they say, "Huh, that was interesting. I enjoyed that. I enjoyed that date. I would like to see him again." >> Are the stated reasons um similar in any way? For instance, are both groups saying less less baggage? That would be kind of a cliche answer, but we could place that on either side. >> I don't know. And I would love to know. I think sometimes when women are when they downrate like whether they care about attractiveness or something. I I think sometimes they are like kidding themselves a little bit that they actually do appreciate a younger guy who's maybe is fit and in shape or they don't fully appreciate how exciting it would feel to be sitting across the table from a guy like that. I mean, this is my best uh my best guess. And what's so fascinating about this data set is that look, they're trying to create these couples, but you know, you only create a couple a fraction of the time. Much of the time the people don't really hit it off, but in the couples that get created, the guy was four years older than the woman. And in the couples that don't get created, the guy is four years older than the woman cuz that was what they had in the sample to begin with. So we look around and you see that age difference. That age difference is real. And I'm sure it means something important. And data like this just make me think something else is going on here. Whatever is creating this age difference, it's at least it's not, you know, a age difference in in how people sort, it's not happening on date one. It's not happening at the initial attraction phase. Maybe it's happening earlier who puts themselves in the pool. Maybe it's happening later. I don't know. She's going to date this younger guy like once or twice, but then she's going to be done with him and she'll, you know, settle down with somebody who's a little older. >> She said she's done with him. >> Yeah. Right. Exactly. Right. But Right. But it could go the other way, too. >> Well, what I've heard before, uh, cuz I'm 50, I have some, uh, female friends who are dating, and they'll say that they do date younger guys, but then the deal breaker is if the guy says he wants >> kids. Kids, that's tough. >> And then >> the So the agreement is to move on based on that. Often this is a common reasonably common thing. Yeah. Actually hear about this more and more these days. >> Yeah. And I think um one thing that that online dating affords is if you've got something like that that's exceptionally important to you, there are opportunities to filter on it. Um we haven't talked about this too much yet, but but you can get into a whole line of research and studies on, you know, oh, if people are filtering for things in the abstract, does that match what's ultimately going to appeal to them when they meet face to face? We find that generally speaking, these things tend to be pretty uncorrelated. So what people think they want doesn't match up with what they actually end up liking once they meet somebody face to face. But you can argue that sometimes that's not a good thing. If somebody really wants kids, shouldn't it be within their power to craft a pool of partners who also want kids to give them that opportunity? Like that seems like a reasonable humanistic thing to do. And so to the extent that the apps are able to do that or these services are able to do that, I think that's uh that's ultimately a good thing. I think >> click like want kids or not. >> Yeah, I think I think often I think I I think you can I in in some apps that might be like a special feature you have to pay for things. These things get complicated. >> Who knows if the news is accurate uh because it's not real data. It's sort of whatever the news decides to shine a light on. this idea that um more young people are going to church with which is a values plural uh indicator like >> you know people can most churches are open to whoever shows up but the assumption is that people are there uh for certain reasons that they're either trying to build on or or have certain values >> that are sort of family children uh >> values morals adjacent if not central right I think people know what I'm saying I mean sure bad people can show up at church, but but the idea is that somebody's taking the time uh to get dressed up on a Sunday morning and go and listen to someone else speak and a lot of people are meeting that way now. Are there any data that that's a response to the kind of like wild west of >> um of online dating and you know social media and and just the general culture of like everybody it's kind of the the culture of everybody. I mean even in high school there were subgroups. Some people moved between subgroups, but it's, you know, it the the vastness of the internet and social media, >> even if you state your preferences about what you do and don't want to see on social media is like it's a flood. I mean, I see people and things on there from way back when that like they're not bad people. I have no interest in what they're doing now. And then occasionally I see people I'm like, "Oh, no way." And reconnect. So, but it's a it's a fire hose. >> Yeah. And you need some way to reduce it to something manageable. I mean, again, we we evolved in an environment where we knew like 50 other people, you know, that's like your group. You you probably knew more than that. Maybe you know, like 150, some nearby groups, but that's all ages and all genders and everything else. It's a small number of potential partners for you, but you had reasons to interact, structures that were going to put you in contact with each other. And to the extent that church is fulfilling a function like that, I think that's great. And in fact, I think that's exactly what's missing. And if church isn't your thing, there's like a million other things that people can do in any kind of modern urban context that are going to be helpful along those lines. I mean, you can join any kind of inter mural sports team. I mean, >> improv class. >> Exactly. Yeah. So, I think the improv classes are amazing because not only is it a chance to interact in a group over a a period of time where you don't get to opt out if you don't love somebody right away, but also you're like practicing being [laughter] vulnerable and in, you know, being responsive and things like that. So, I think these things are all wonderful. Are people doing it because they're trying to limit the pools to the folks that they think will fit what they're looking for? I'll bet you some people are doing that. I'll bet that, you know, if somebody's like, I really want to be with somebody else who's active, so I'm going to join a running club. Or, yeah, I want to be with somebody who shares my value, so I'm going to join church. I think that's great. If I'm like being buzzill scientist, I'd probably sit here and be like, it probably actually doesn't matter. Like, join the church, join the running club, join all these things. Like, you're probably know more or less likely to find somebody that you're going to click with. >> It's more about getting yourself in a small group environment. >> Exactly. Exactly. But I'll be the first to say like when it comes to like the base rates of these things, like if your if your goal was, you know, in 90 days I want to be in a relationship, what are the things I should do that give me the best likelihood? I'm embarrassed to say my field can't answer that question. I can't tell you, you know, use two apps and use these two apps and go to church. Don't join kickball cuz they're a mess. I was a kickball player, so I'm allowed to say that. Uh but you should join the running club. We can't answer questions like that. So, in the absence of that kind of specificity, my answer is always just be around people on repeated occasions. >> I'm not trying to provide push back here. I'm not qualified to do it. I'm going to I'm from a totally different field. But I feel like there's certain small group smallish group environments like church. But there there could be other examples like for instance like a hiking club or rock climbing or something like that where >> there's kind of a um this shouldn't be the reason uh people do it and the only reason people do it but let's say um people pair up as a consequence of time there >> that the culture of that thing provides additional opportunities to uh grow the relationship with peers right because there certain things like you join an improv class great like big my sister's really into drama and theater still does theater classes for her own her own enrichment. But like but if you meet someone there, it's not like the the the culture around it um sort of cultivates the evolution of the relationship. Like whereas in like church like you might even get married in that church in the context of a of a hiking club, like you
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与那些这样做的人合作 配对。所以，这些人是 正在为一项服务付费 因为他们想要长期发展 关系。 所以，他们会安排人们约会。 他们有一个很大的游泳池 他们正在与……合作。并且就此而言 泳池，那些正在寻找的男人 约会对象比女性年长约 平均四年。好的？就是这样。 这就是他们所能利用的资源。 他们会安排人们进行这些约会。 所以大多数时候，女人是 她会比那个男人年轻，但是 存在一个范围。有时这位女性 比那男的年轻得多。有时 这名女子和这名男子年龄相同。 有时，这个女人甚至有点 比那男的年纪大。好的？所以呢 你可能会看到的是，如果男人是 寻找年轻女性，而女性 寻找年长的男性，然后当我们寻找 伴侣年龄如何影响 你是否想进行第二次约会 与这个人， 它应该会吸引年轻人。 男性和老年人更受欢迎 对女性更是如此。但事实并非如此。 我们看到了。我们看到年轻人 更受男性欢迎。顺便说一句， 影响并不大。并非如此 那种令人作呕的刻板印象。 男性对……更感兴趣一些 这些女性在某种程度上是 虽然比较年轻，但规模并不巨大。女性 他们都做着同样的事情。他们是 对这方面稍微有点兴趣 年轻小伙子们。他们不会那样说。 纸。事实上，有时候他们会这样说： “别安排我跟那些年纪小的家伙在一起。” 然后他们照做了，然后说：“嗯， 那很有意思。我很喜欢。我 约会很愉快。我想看看 又是他。 所述理由是否相似？ 方式？例如，这两个群体都是 意思是说，少带点行李？那将是 答案虽然有点老套，但我们可以 将它们放在两侧。 我不知道。我很想知道。 我觉得有时候当女人…… 他们降低评分，就像他们不在乎一样。 关于外貌吸引力之类的。我 我 有时候我觉得他们像是在开玩笑。 他们自己也有点这样认为。 其实我挺欣赏年轻人的 他们或许身材健美，或者他们 还没完全意识到它有多令人兴奋 会感觉像是坐在对面 从那样的人手里买来的桌子。我的意思是，这 这是我最好的猜测。什么？ 这个数据集最吸引人的地方在于…… 他们试图营造的那种形象 这些情侣，但你知道，你只有 创造一对伴侣的时间非常短暂。 很多时候，人们其实并不真正 他们一见如故，但在那些最终走到一起的情侣中， 创建者比他大四岁 比那个女人还不如。而对于那些夫妇来说， 别创建，那家伙四年了 比那位女士年纪大，因为就是这样。 他们一开始就在样本中含有这些物质。所以 我们环顾四周，就会发现那个时代 不同之处。年龄差距是真实存在的。 我相信这其中必有深意。 重要的。而像这样的数据恰恰说明了这一点 我觉得事情没那么简单。 这里。究竟是什么造就了这个时代？ 区别在于，至少它不是，你 要知道，年龄差异会影响人们的相处方式。 总之，第一次约会不会发生。 这种情况并非一开始就会发生 吸引阶段。也许它正在发生 之前有人把自己放进泳池里。 或许晚些时候才会发生。我不 知道。她要和这个比她小的约会。 她可能只跟那家伙见过一两次，但之后她就…… 她要和他断绝关系了，她也会， 你知道，和某人安定下来。 比他年长一些。 她说她和他断绝关系了。 是的。正确的。确切地。正确的。但是，没错。 但结果也可能恰恰相反。 嗯，我以前也听说过，呃，因为 我 50 岁了，我有一些，呃，女性朋友 正在约会的人会说 她们确实会和比自己小的男人约会，但是…… 如果对方说他想要什么，那就绝对不能接受。 孩子们。孩子们，这太难了。 进而 因此，双方达成的协议是继续推进。 就此而言。这通常很常见 相当常见的事情。是的。实际上 越来越多地听到这些 天。 是的。我觉得有一点是…… 在线约会的优势在于，如果你有…… 类似这样的东西，非常特别。 对你来说很重要的，有 有机会对其进行筛选。嗯，我们 我们还没怎么讨论过这个问题。 但是，你可以进入一整套…… 关于……的研究和调查，你知道，哦， 如果人们正在筛选某些内容 摘要的内容与实际内容相符吗？ 最终会吸引他们 他们见面了吗？我们发现 总的来说，这些事情往往 相关性很低。所以人们会怎么做？ 他们认为自己想要的与实际情况不符 他们最终真正喜欢的是什么 他们与某人面对面相遇。但是你 可以辩称，有时那并非如此。 好事。如果有人真的想要 孩子们，这难道不应该是他们能做到的吗？ 建立一个合作伙伴库，他们也 想让孩子们给他们这样的机会吗？ 这看起来合情合理。 这是出于人道主义的做法。所以，接下来是…… 应用程序能够做到这一点的程度。 或者这些服务能够做到这一点，我 我觉得这最终是个好结果。 事物。我认为 点击点赞或不点赞。想要孩子吗？ 是的，我觉得我经常觉得我 我认为你可以在某些应用程序中看到这一点。 这可能就像你拥有的某种特殊功能。 用来支付东西。这些事情变得 复杂的。 谁知道这消息是否准确呢？ 因为这不是真实数据。这有点像 无论新闻决定聚焦什么， 灯亮了。这种想法，嗯，更年轻 人们正和谁一起去教堂？ 一个值复数呃指示器像 你知道，大多数教堂都是人们可以去的。 任何人都可以到场，但是 假设那里有人…… 由于某些原因，他们要么是 试图建立在某些方面，或者拥有某些方面 值 那些算是家里的孩子吧 价值观和道德观是相邻的，甚至是核心的。 没错，我想大家都知道我是什么人。 我的意思是，当然坏人也会表现出 在教堂里，但是，我的意思是…… 有人花时间去…… 周日早上盛装打扮，然后出发 听别人说话，以及 现在很多人都用这种方式见面。 是否有任何数据表明这是…… 对这种类似狂野西部的回应 的 嗯，关于网上约会和社交 媒体以及整个文化 就像每个人一样，这有点像…… 人人皆有的文化。我的意思是即使在 高中时也存在一些小团体。一些 人们在不同的小群体之间流动，但是 你知道，这是浩瀚无垠的…… 互联网和社交媒体， 即使你表达了你的偏好 你想看什么，不想看什么 社交媒体就像一场洪水。我 我的意思是，我在那里能看到人和事。 从很久以前，他们就好像不是那样 坏人。我对什么没兴趣 他们现在正在这样做。然后偶尔 我看到有些人，心想：“哦，不可能吧。”和 重新连接。所以，但是这是一场火灾 软管。 是的。你需要一些方法来减少它 变成可控的事情。我的意思是，再说一遍， 我们进化于这样的环境中： 你知道，我认识大概 50 个其他人。 那跟你们的团队很像。你可能 我知道的远不止这些。或许你知道， 大约 150 人，还有一些附近的团体，但也就那样了。 所有年龄、所有性别以及所有 别的。潜在人数不多。 你是你的合作伙伴，但你有理由 相互作用，即将发生的结构 让你们彼此联系。和 教会履行其职责的程度 我认为，像这样的函数就是 伟大的。事实上，我认为那就是 究竟缺少什么。如果教会 如果你不喜欢，那还有上百万种选择呢。 人们在任何场合都可以做的其他事情 某种现代都市环境 在这方面会有所帮助。我 也就是说，你可以加入任何类型的互联网 壁画运动队。我是说， 即兴表演课。 确切地。是的。所以，我认为即兴表演 课程很棒，因为不仅 这是一个在小组中互动交流的机会。 一段你无法获得 如果你不爱某人，就选择退出。 立刻，但同时你也像 练习变得脆弱（笑声） 你知道，还要积极回应。 诸如此类的事情。所以，我认为这些 一切都很美好。人 这样做是因为他们试图限制 游泳池对那些人来说，他们认为 是否符合他们的需求？患病的 我敢肯定有些人正在这样做。患病的 我敢打赌，你知道，如果有人这样说， 我真的很想和别人在一起。 谁活跃，所以我打算加入一个 跑步俱乐部。或者，是的，我想成为 和一个价值观与我相符的人在一起，所以 我打算加入教会。我认为那是 伟大的。如果我像个嗡嗡叫的人 科学家， 我大概会坐在这里想，它 可能根本无关紧要。喜欢， 加入教会，加入跑步俱乐部， 将所有这些事物结合起来。比如，你是 可能知道的可能性更大或更小 找到一个你会喜欢的人 和。 更重要的是让自己进入一个 小组环境。 确切地。确切地。但我会是第一个 比如说，当谈到喜欢的时候 这些东西的基本费率，比如如果你 如果你的目标是，你知道，在 90 天内， 想谈恋爱，有什么？ 我应该做的事情能给我带来 最有可能的情况？我不好意思说。 我的领域无法回答这个问题。我 没法告诉你，你知道，用两个应用程序。 使用这两个应用程序去教堂。 不要参加踢球比赛，因为那太糟糕了。 我以前是踢球运动员，所以我可以 这么说吧。呃，但是你应该加入 跑步俱乐部。我们无法回答问题 就是这样。所以，在没有那种情况下…… 就具体情况而言，我的答案总是 只是反复地和人待在一起。 场合。 我并非有意阻挠。 这里。我没有资格做这件事。我是 我要去的地方，我来自一个完全不同的地方 场地。但我感觉肯定有某些原因。 小组环境 就像教堂一样。但那里可能存在 其他例子，例如像…… 徒步俱乐部或攀岩俱乐部或 类似那样的事情 这里有点……嗯……这不应该发生。 人们这样做的原因，以及唯一的原因。 人们这样做的原因，但假设…… 人们随着时间的推移而结成伴侣。 那里 那件事物的文化所提供的 更多发展机会 与同龄人建立良好关系是正确的，因为 有些事情，比如你加入一个 即兴表演课很棒，就像我姐姐的大姐姐一样。 我仍然对戏剧和舞台剧非常感兴趣。 她自己去上戏剧课 丰富。但是，如果你遇到 那里有人，不像那个 围绕它的文化，嗯，某种程度上培养了 这段关系的演变。喜欢 然而，就像在教堂里一样，你可能会 甚至可以在那座教堂结婚。 比如你，在一个徒步俱乐部的背景下

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might be out with the other couples that you meet or or single people that you meet for many years. Like you can sort of it's it's a community that that can grow over time. certain things here I'm showing my ignorance around improv classes but certain things like a pottery class or pickle ball or something like >> it doesn't just at face value present a sort of trajectory of like >> that's right >> I'm sounding really nerdy here but kind of like a a set of maturational stages that it that you can continue to like be in the relationship there does that make sense really stumbling for the words here no totally this by the way is a great reason to not meet people at work >> not meet people at work. I'm not trying to like throw a cold blanket on people who decide to meet people at work, but often times often times that the relationship doesn't necessarily flourish in the context of the work environment. It's not like the work environment makes the relationship grow. I've seen more things split over time if both people work there. Often times they have to move to separate buildings, >> right? >> Um just for a variety of reasons, but it's not like the culture encourages it. Whereas there are certain things that are a bit more since you were talking for a moment there like an evolutionary biologist like we evolved in small villages and small groups where >> you know you had peers and elders that that provide this positive reinforcement on relationship. You know it's kind of an interesting thing like no matter how evolved we are or progressive we are. >> I don't know many women that ask men to marry them >> in 2026. I'm sure they're out there, but it's still the >> tacid assumption that men are going to do the asking. >> Yeah. >> Just saying. >> Okay. So, how progressive are we really? Right. It's also true that when people get married, most of the time they stand up in front of other people and state their vows. This is not like, you know, uh, you know, under the bed sheets, I promise. I promise I This is like a public disclosure. These days it ends up on Instagram, >> you know. So, you know, there's clearly a feedback that comes from being part of a larger structure that reinforces relationships over time. >> Yeah. And it can be a big >> You promised, you didn't just promise to me, you promised to the whole world, >> right? >> And that can be an important source of support, too, because then it's that at least the subjective sense like these people have our backs, right? if we run into hard times, >> there's a community that's going to be there and support us. >> And then I think you're right on the initial attraction side, having a sense that we're part of this larger collective that there's something about that that that feels good and provides structure that like that can help keep moving things forward. And you're right that the workplace context is particularly tricky because many workplaces don't want to encourage that kind of thing. And it's going to often happen anyway. And probably the smartest workplaces are the ones that allow for the possibility that peers are going to get together and have structures in place that that will be able to keep the personal life appropriately personal and then you know deal with the fallout if the if the fallout happens. One place I trained might have been UC Davis. All the junior faculty of which there were many of them when I first joined there were a large fraction of couples in the department or who had spouses in other departments >> I think more than 80% of those couples ended up divorced now wow >> now we can't there are a lot of variables there fortunately most of them are on good terms um I can't say they ended up with other people in the department that didn't happen >> but you know I watched and was like whoa like this is interesting uh you know this didn't I want to say didn't end well cuz I think they're all happy now but there does seem to be some additional stress uh of that. So I mean this gets to a question you've actually studied which is this notion of um >> similarity. >> So maybe we should talk more about that because it's more data driven uh question which is perceived similarity matters more than actual similarity. What is perceived similarity? So perceived similarity is this general sense like we have a lot in common. There are a million things that we could talk about. We share the same values and attitudes and preferences about things in general. But notice the way I'm describing it. I'm not tethering it to any particular attitude or value or preference or anything else because it's so free floating. I as the perceiver get to attach it to whatever I want and that uh affords people to have a certain amount of motivated reasoning so that when they like somebody a lot they will find the similarities there. They will really come to think that what really matters is that we love Japanese cinema and that we you know that we share the same politics. Whereas for another couple, uh, you know what, we have different politics, but that doesn't really matter to us. >> Does anyone say that nowadays? >> No, people still do. I mean, look, we what you see in the political matching data is that the odds that people ofo, you know, diametrically opposed preferences, the odds they're going to get together in the first place are very, very low. But among the mismatches that do exist, it actually doesn't predict satisfaction all that much. And I think this is why because you just compartmentalize it. If we match, it's important. If we don't match, oh, who cares? Does anybody care about that? Right? So much motivated reasoning. So, this is why if what I wanted to do was take two people who had never met and assess everything I could about them and then figure out whether they were going to be a match or not, ba based on whether they were similar, I really was probably going to be no better than a coin flip at figuring out whether or not they were going to click. That's actual similarity. I take things that are true about you without the ability for you to engage in motivated reasoning and I say, "Okay, you're an 83% match on all the things I could assess. You two should like each other." When we've done studies like that, you you basically get a coin flip every time. Well, this is why the apps seem totally useless because if you were just pair up, well, you want this and you want this, I want that, too, and I want that, too. You're telling me that it's as good as chance. It's as good as chance. And look, if there's evidence for similarity on anything, it could be in the realm of like demographics, socioeconomic status kinds of things. I I've seen like unpublished data, but promising, but even then, those effects are so small. So, I'm, you know, we're going from a 50/50 coin flip to like 5347. These are small effects across the board because we get all of this motivational latitude. When we really like somebody, we find the things we have in common. We focus on those. We convince ourselves those are the most important things in the world. And the thing is, who am I to criticize them because the people in the happiest relationships, that's what they're doing. They're exhibiting those kinds of biases. And it's like stupid human tricks, but it like kind of works. >> You want to hear something really scary? >> Yeah. Uh, you probably know this already, but I was shocked. Uh, let's just say someone I know who would know um told me that the biggest dating app in the world by an enormous margin is >> it's not Tinder, >> Instagram. >> Oh, >> and this was actually very much in parallel >> to the the algorithm favoring communication by direct message. People will say like social media isn't social anymore. It's not about like seeing what people are doing. The real dynamics, the real time spent, and you'll notice how you get rewarded and what gets served up in the algorithm. Rewarded meaning like what what posts do better than others. >> If there's a strong correlate to communication about that through direct message, it's a dating app that's kind of cloaked for many people as a social media app. But of course, I use it to teach neuroscience, right? And and other things. And this will be on Instagram. So, I mean, I'm a big fan of of Instagram and other social media platforms for teaching and learning. And I say that sincerely, but the majority of the time spent now is not scrolling. It's it's getting to communications that move to real world and then feed back >> Yeah. >> to social media. So, I found that um interesting. So, I'm imagining a question uh because you study questions people ask them on dates. And we used to be able to say, >> if you were on a deserted island, >> who would you want to be there with? Like, who's the one person that you could stand being with or perhaps even really enjoy being with, assuming you have all the resources? >> Now, I think the question should be, >> who's the one person that would get you to not engage with anyone else in in the world? In other words, set down what you called, and I've never heard this before, the derivation of alternatives. >> This is an interesting term. So, in some ways, like committed partnership is about setting aside the idea that there might be somebody better for us. >> And I would argue, again, I have strong positive feelings towards Instagram. Um, I really do. Uh, it's a a fun and great platform when used in, you know, moderation. Yeah. But it's the opposite of the deserted island. And a former guest on this podcast who happens to be a divorce lawyer, um, James Ston, has talked about the fact that many, many, many of the divorces that he um, >> litigates, no, that he that he's involved in. Yeah. That he helps resolve uh, win for his clients started with uh, a >> innocuous communication on his starts with a like. starts with a like, starts with a conversation, starts with a ends up in the corner of a grievance or a or
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可能会和其他情侣一起出去玩 你遇到的单身人士，或者你 多年来一直保持联系。就像你可以排序一样 这是一个可以……的社区 随着时间推移而生长。我在这里的某些事情 暴露了我对即兴表演的无知 课程，但某些事情，比如 陶艺课或匹克球或 类似 它不仅仅从表面上看呈现出一种 类似这样的轨迹 这是正确的 我这么说可能有点书呆子气，但我很友善。 就像一系列成熟阶段 也就是说，你可以继续喜欢它 在这种关系中，这确实会产生影响。 感觉真的在努力寻找合适的词语 这里完全没有，顺便说一下，这是一个 不与同事见面的绝佳理由 不在工作中与人见面。我不是故意的 就像给人们披上一条冰冷的毯子。 他们决定在工作中结识新朋友，但是 很多时候，很多时候 关系不一定 在工作中蓬勃发展 环境。这不像工作 环境促进关系发展。 我见过越来越多的事物随着时间的推移而分裂。 他们俩都在那里工作。很多时候他们 必须搬到不同的建筑物里， 正确的？ 嗯，原因有很多，但是…… 这种文化并不鼓励这种行为。 然而，有些事情 自从你上次说话以来，情况稍微好了一些。 那一刻，就像进化一样 生物学家认为我们进化得很小 村庄和小群体 你知道你也有同龄人和长辈， 提供这种积极强化 关于人际关系。你知道这有点像 一件有趣的事情，比如无论如何 我们是进化的，或者说我们是进步的。 我认识的女性中，很少有人会要求男性…… 嫁给他们 2026 年。我相信它们肯定存在，但是…… 它仍然是 认为男人会……的冷漠假设 主动去问。 是的。 只是说说而已。 好的。那么，我们究竟有多进步？ 正确的。同样的情况也发生在人们 结婚后，他们大多数时候都会站着。 在其他人面前和州 他们的誓言。这不像，你知道的， 呃，你知道，在床单下面，我 承诺。我保证这就像一个 公开披露。如今，最终的结果 在 Instagram 上， 你知道。所以，你知道，很明显 参与其中所获得的反馈 更大的结构起到加固作用 随着时间的推移，彼此之间的关系。 是的。而且这可能会造成很大的影响。 你承诺过，你不仅仅是承诺过。 你曾向全世界承诺过我， 正确的？ 而这可能是一个重要的来源 也需要支持，因为那样的话…… 至少像这样的主观感受 大家都会支持我们的，对吧？如果我们运行 陷入困境， 有一个社区将会 在那里支持我们。 然后我觉得你说得对。 最初的吸引力，有一种感觉 我们是这个更大整体的一部分。 集体认为这其中必有缘由 那感觉很好，而且能带来 像这样的结构可以帮助保持 推动事情向前发展。你说得对。 工作场所环境是 尤其棘手，因为许多 工作场所不希望鼓励这种行为。 就是那种事。而且这种情况经常发生。 无论如何都会发生。而且可能也是最聪明的。 工作场所是指那些允许……的地方。 同龄人可能会 聚在一起，建立结构 能够容纳的地方 个人生活应适当地保持个人化和 那么你就知道该如何处理后果了。 如果核辐射真的发生的话。我所在的一个地方 可能曾在加州大学戴维斯分校接受过培训。全部 其中有初级教员 我刚加入那里的时候，他们中的许多人都在那里。 很大一部分夫妇 部门或其他部门的配偶 部门 我认为超过 80%的夫妇 哇，居然离婚了。 现在我们不能，有很多 幸运的是，大多数变量都存在。 他们关系很好……嗯，我不能说他们关系很好。 最后和其他人在一起了。 部门并未成立 但你知道吗，我看了之后就惊呆了。 这很有意思，你知道吗？ 这并没有结束，我想说的是，这件事并没有结束。 因为我觉得他们现在都很开心。 但似乎确实存在一些 额外的压力，呃。我的意思是 这就引出了一个你实际上已经提出的问题。 研究了这种“嗯”的概念。 相似。 所以或许我们应该多谈谈这个。 因为它更注重数据驱动。 感知相似性的问题 比实际相似性更重要。 什么是感知相似性？所以 感知相似性是普遍存在的 感觉我们有很多共同点。 我们可以做的事情有无数种。 谈谈。我们拥有相同的价值观， 对事物的态度和偏好 一般来说。但请注意我的方式 描述它。我不会把它束缚起来 任何特定的态度或价值观 个人喜好或其他任何原因，因为…… 所以是自由漂浮的。作为感知者，我得到 我可以把它连接到任何我想连接的地方，而且 呃，使人们能够拥有某种 动机推理的程度，以便 当他们非常喜欢某人时，他们会 找出其中的相似之处。他们会 仔细想想，这才是真正…… 重要的是我们热爱日本电影 而且你知道我们共享 同样的政治立场。而对于其他情况 一对夫妇，呃，你知道吗，我们有 政治立场不同，但这并不意味着 对我们来说非常重要。 现在还有人这么说吗？ 不，现在仍然有人这么做。我的意思是，你看，我们 你在政治匹配中看到什么 数据显示，人们的几率是…… 你知道，截然相反 偏好，以及他们这样做的可能性 首先，大家聚在一起是 非常低。但在这些不匹配中 确实存在这种情况，但实际上并不存在。 预测满意度并不高。和 我觉得这就是原因，因为你只是 将其分类存放。如果我们匹配成功，那就是 重要的。如果我们不匹配，哦，那谁呢？ 关心吗？有人关心这个吗？ 正确的？这么多的动机性推理。所以， 这就是为什么如果我想做的是 假设有两个素未谋面的人， 我尽可能地评估了他们的一切情况 然后弄清楚他们是否要去 是否匹配，取决于 无论它们是否相似，我真的…… 可能不会比现在好多少。 通过抛硬币来决定是否 他们本来要点击的。这是真的 相似。我接受真实的事情。 关于你，你却无能为力 运用动机性推理，我会说： “好的，你在所有方面都匹配了 83%……” 我可以评估的事情。你们两个应该 彼此喜欢。”当我们完成 像这样的研究，你基本上就能得到 每次都抛硬币。嗯，这是 为什么这些应用看起来完全没用 因为如果你们只是结对配对，那…… 你想要这个，你想要这个，我也想要 我也想要那个。你是 他告诉我，这跟碰运气一样。 这跟碰运气没什么区别。你看，如果 有证据表明两者相似 任何事，都可能属于以下范畴： 例如人口统计数据， 社会经济地位之类的因素。我 我见过一些未发表的数据，但是 很有希望，但即便如此，这些效果 它们太小了。所以，你知道，我们是 从五五开抛硬币变成像 5347. 这些影响很小 因为我们得到了所有这些 动机上的自主性。当我们真正 就像某些人一样，我们发现了我们想要的东西 共同点。我们专注于这些方面。我们 说服自己这些是最 世界上的重要事情。以及 问题是，我有什么资格批评他们呢？ 因为最幸福的人们 关系，它们就是关系。 正在做。他们正在展示这类 偏见。这简直就像愚蠢的人类 虽然有点花招，但好像确实管用。 想听个真正恐怖的故事吗？ 是的。呃，你可能知道这一点。 虽然已经有所察觉，但我还是感到震惊。呃，我们开始吧 就说我认识的某个会知道的人吧 嗯，他告诉我最大的约会应用程序 在世界范围内，它以巨大的优势领先。 这不是 Tinder， Instagram。 哦， 而这实际上非常…… 平行线 有利于算法 通过私信沟通。人们 会有人说社交媒体不是社交。 不再是了。这无关乎看到什么 人们正在做。真正的动态， 实际花费的时间，你会注意到…… 你会得到奖励，以及你能得到什么。 在算法中。奖励的含义就像 哪些帖子比其他帖子表现更好？ 如果存在强烈的相关性 通过直接沟通来传达相关信息 消息：这是一个很友好的约会应用程序。 对许多人来说，披着斗篷是一种社交行为 媒体应用。当然，我用它来…… 教神经科学，对吧？以及其他 事物。这条消息会发布在 Instagram 上。 所以，我的意思是，我是……的忠实粉丝 Instagram 和其他社交媒体 教学平台。和 我是真心这么说的，但大多数人 现在花在浏览网页上的时间并不多。 关键在于沟通。 过渡到现实世界，然后反馈 是的。 到社交媒体。所以，我发现…… 有趣的。所以，我设想了一个 问题是因为你学习了问题 人们会邀请他们约会。我们过去常常 能够说， 如果你身处一个荒岛上， 你希望和谁一起在那里？ 比如，你最想见到的那个人是谁？ 可以忍受和……在一起，或者甚至 真的很喜欢和你在一起，假设你 拥有所有资源吗？ 现在，我认为问题应该是： 谁会是那个能理解你的人？ 不要与其他人接触 世界？换句话说，写下你…… 打电话过来，但我从来没听过这个。 在此之前，推导出替代方案。 这是一个很有意思的术语。所以，在某些情况下 方式，例如建立紧密的伙伴关系 关于搁置这个想法 或许有更适合我们的人选。 而且我还要再次强调，我有很强的论点。 对 Instagram 抱有积极态度。嗯， 我真的这么认为。嗯，这很有趣也很棒 平台用于，你知道的， 适度。是的。但事实恰恰相反。 荒岛上的。还有一位前任 本期播客的嘉宾恰好是 离婚律师，嗯，詹姆斯·斯通，有 谈到很多的事实 他参与的许多离婚案件，嗯， 诉讼？不，他就是。 参与其中。是的。他帮助解决了这个问题 呃，他为客户赢得胜利始于呃， 一个 他在起跑线上的无害交流 点赞。以点赞开始 对话，以……开始，以……结束 在不满的角落里，或者

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a a commonality that's sensed and then the derivation of alternatives emerges and eventually the relationship dissolves. >> We think about how people handle alternative partners. If you're in a purportedly monogous relationship, this is a challenge that relationships are going to face and I sort of see these like twin streams happening at the same time. So what you see in general is that for people who are in relationships and especially if they are happy in that relationship, any alternative partner that you can throw at them, they will tend to think that that alternative partner is pretty weak sauce. They think that person is less desirable than any other metric you might want to come up with for how desirable that person actually is. That's what we mean by deriggation of alternatives. It's like they're coming in up here, but because I'm partnered with you and I'm happy with you, I see them as less desirable than they actually are. Side note, that's why this one of the reasons why the marketplace metaphor starts to break down because people actually start to become bad barometers of what is quote unquote good. You stop seeing this alternative's actual value because you're so happy with the person that you have. Okay. So, this is a good thing and this is a real defense mechanism that people have. >> Is it a defense mechanism or I mean, but it's protective of healthy monogous relationship. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But I mean it in the best Yeah. You know what? That's so funny because in our jargon we say defense mechanism. I mean that in the best possible mechanism. >> Yeah. Protective mechanism. Right. Yeah. You're defending the relationship. That's so funny. I'd like forgotten. >> We've had a few too many uh psychologist. Right. Of course. that has a negative connotation for some people, not for me. Okay? So, it's a protective mechanism, but at the same time, people also do this thing that you might call like playing with fire, but it's more like, you know, playing with what really seems to be a harmless book of matches. And I just I'm just messaging these people. Well, what's the big deal? This isn't going to go anywhere. Uh I'm just, you know, we're we're we're chatting a little bit. This isn't going to go anywhere. And things escalate. Sorry to interrupt, but um and you know, one of uh >> our former guests on this podcast who's immensely popular in the dating relationships and romance sphere is Esther Prell, and I don't want to put words in her mouth, but I think the perception about some of her messaging, whether accurate or not, is that there can be some value to, you know, in in her first book, I think, and I haven't read it, but um the the excerpt that was uh relayed to me was this notion like, oh, like someone isn't feeling as much chemistry in a relationship. So, like the woman, this wouldn't happen nowadays most likely, but goes to a bar and like flirts a bit and then like some some sense of of um sexual confidence is restored and then her husband is then attracted to her differently again. And you know, I've heard the more crude phrase, doesn't matter where you get your appetite as long as you eat at home. This is more of the 1950s60s variety. By the way, none of these statements come from me, although my mouth is saying them. These are things that you hear out there, right? >> Yeah. directly uh in opposition to what you're saying, which is not to say that what you're saying is wrong. I just think that there was a there was about a 20 or 30 year period there where people kind of assumed that monogamy could thrive. >> Yeah. >> Despite the inputs and monogamy could thrive perhaps even better if people acknowledge this aspect of self that is still attracted other people. They talk about it. what you're talking about is really a more of a protective cloak around the commitment. I do sense people are veering back toward that what you're describing. You know how I think about it is is the protective cloak um that that's sort of there as a baseline but then signals will get through some sometimes sometimes cuz you're messing around on Instagram but sometimes because you went to the bar with your friends and there was this cute guy who was chatting you up and the evidence there too I interpret I think the way a stair would interpret it and and what you see in the data also suggests something like a protect ive mechanism again it's playing with fire but if you look in studies where they ask people have a sexual fantasy about your partner now how much sexual desire do you feel for your partner it has gone up great that's pretty straightforward now please have a sexual fantasy about I don't know whoever's in second place that's not your partner then you start having sexual feelings for that person and you start having sexual feelings for your partner at the same time. So, it's exactly the metaphor that you're describing that when we feel a sense of attraction, it can rebound onto our partner. And by the way, it doesn't happen in the reverse. Okay. So, the partner, your current partner, again, for most people in happy relationships, holds a special position, you might say, where even when there is a little bit of a threat, and I've noticed somebody, it it rebounds somewhat. I don't advise that people go out and do this. You're saying it rebounds like it's a it's a fuel for the relationship the way that Esther and other people have talked about that's a real thing. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. I mean it recent studies I can point to one or two. They're all like within the last few years. >> This is going to be very uncomfortable for some people to hear that their partner may come home immensely attracted to them because they had some sort of interaction during the day of either being attracted to someone or receiving signals of attractiveness. Right. Where I am a thousand% with with Estair is that the danger, the problem is not that your partner was sexually attracted to somebody else. The problem is usually in the escalation. It's yeah, but now are they like repeatedly hanging out with them and having like a conversations that they feel secretive about or that you know if if it's you that you feel secretive about? Those are the warning signs because then what will start to happen is that the protective layer that people typically put around their partners, it will start to erode and that's when people are at a greater risk of infidelity. It's usually a process like that. The simple fact that we can be attracted to other people that is not a problem for the average relationship. It's the repeated follow through on that attraction that becomes a problem. And that's something that evolved in recent years that there used to be far more transient interactions that would never resurface again. You sit next to someone on a plane, you'd have a conversation. Uh there might be attraction, there might not be, but you develop some degree of intimacy. Some people would disclose a lot on planes and then you never hear or talk to them again. Nowadays, there's almost always an opportunity for people to follow up and connect with people. That's what James Ston is referring to. Yeah. when he talks about social media being a um an uh borrowing other person's language here an attack vector, you know, on a relationship and maybe that is a good reason for people who are in committed relationships to just get off of social media period. But it's also a context where people spend quote unquote spend time with people for other reasons. >> Yeah, it's tricky. Uh if if I I don't recommend using that sort of process to bolster your relationship. I guess if you're going to do it, you know, try to do it by watching somebody. Um, yeah. Who's uh Yeah. figure out if you're a man who's with a woman, just ask her like what actor does she have the hots for and like be kind enough to watch a movie featuring him. Like maybe that's that's a way to make this work. >> Or the reverse. Yeah, sure. >> Some of the um what appear to be the strongest and happiest couples that I know, I know very little about their dynamics, period. >> Yeah. which is kind of an interesting thing in its own right, but some of the people that are in that set seem to have a pretty uh relaxed >> rapport around, oh yeah, uh so and so referring to their spouse really likes that actor or actress. Like it's like it's just kind of a thing that they understand, but it's over there, >> right? It's it's at a distance. Yeah. It's not um it's not like a looming threat. >> It's very different if it's about somebody that you both like know and spend time with. It's much more threatening in those cases. And and I think that also is part of why that deraggation process happens is because that threat feels very uncomfortable. Like even if it's your attraction, like you kind of want to downplay it because the thought of what would it mean if I'm like with the wrong person or like what would happen if this thing spiraled out of control, it it's upsetting for most people. I mean, we take all this time to build a relationship up to be this thing that we really value that's a central part of our lives. The thought that like it could disappear at a moment's notice because of of a a mistake that we would make, it it can be threatening to most people. E even if we're imagining ourselves engaging in the actions that would bring things to an end. I heard a really scary story that may or may not be informative. >> I think it is and maybe you can help me understand it. Anytime someone starts a story with I have a friend, it gets a a little [laughter] weird, but based on an observation I had a long time ago >> where I was going to a gym and I had a tr truly just platonic friendship with this woman. uh she would go to the gym too. Back then, not a lot of women worked out in gyms if I'm honest. Like like it was like not a lot of women lifted weights. It was like something that was kind of reserved for guys or for female bodybuilders, but she wasn't a bodybuilder, but she she liked lifting weights and super fit. She's a super accomplished athlete now. >> She um one day when we were leaving, she was like really upset. I was like,
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一种被感知到的共同点，然后 替代方案的推导由此产生 最终，这段关系 溶解。 我们思考人们如何处理 其他合作伙伴。如果你身处一个 据称是一夫一妻制的关系，这种 人际关系面临的挑战是…… 面对和 我感觉它们有点像两条平行的溪流。 同时发生。所以 通常情况下，你会看到这样的情况： 恋爱中的人 尤其是如果他们对此感到高兴的话。 关系， 任何其他你可以选择的合作伙伴 朝他们扔东西， 他们往往会认为这一点。 备选方案相当弱 酱。他们认为那个人不太好 比其他任何指标都更可取 可能需要想出一个办法 这个人确实很讨人喜欢。 这就是我们所说的解除限制的含义。 替代方案。感觉他们要来了 我在这里，但因为我是合伙人 和你在一起我很开心，我看到了。 他们认为他们不如其他人受欢迎 确实如此。顺便一提，这就是为什么…… 市场出现的原因之一是 比喻开始失效，因为 人们真的开始变坏了。 衡量所谓“是什么”的晴雨表 好的。你不再看到这种替代方案了 因为你如此快乐，所以它具有真正的价值。 和你的伴侣在一起。好的。所以， 这是件好事，而且是真的 人们拥有的防御机制。 这是一种防御机制吗？或者我的意思是，但是 它对健康的一夫一妻制有保护作用。 关系。 是的。是的。是的。但我的意思是…… 是的，最好。你知道吗？真是这样 有趣的是，在我们的行话里我们说 防御机制。我的意思是，在 最佳机制。 是的。保护机制。正确的。是的。 你在维护这段关系。 太搞笑了。我希望被人遗忘。 我们喝了太多“呃”了 心理学家。正确的。当然。有 对某些人来说带有负面含义 不适合我。好的？所以，它是一种保护措施。 机制，但与此同时，人们 还要做这件事，你可以称之为 就像玩火一样，但更甚。 就像，你知道，玩弄真正的东西 看起来像是一盒无害的火柴。 我只是在发这些信息 人们。这有什么大不了的？这 不会去任何地方。呃，我只是…… 你知道，我们正在聊天 一点。这不会发生的 任何地方。事态进一步升级。抱歉 打断一下，但是，嗯，你知道，其中一个 呃 我们之前在这个播客节目中邀请过的嘉宾是…… 在约会中非常受欢迎 人际关系和浪漫领域是 埃丝特·普雷尔，我不想说 她嘴里说着话，但我认为 人们对她某些信息的解读 无论准确与否，确实存在这种情况。 这可能对某些方面有价值，你知道的。 我想那是她的第一本书，但我还没读过。 我读过了，但是，嗯，摘录的部分是…… 呃，我听到的说法是这样的： 哦，好像有人感觉不太好似的。 恋爱关系中的化学反应。所以，就像 如今这种事不会再发生了。 很有可能，但他会去酒吧，然后喜欢 稍微调情了一下，然后就喜欢上了一些人 性自信的感觉是 恢复之后，她的丈夫…… 我对她再次产生了不同的感觉。和 你知道，我听说过更粗俗的说法。 这句话，无论你从哪里得到它，都无关紧要。 只要你吃饭，你的食欲就会一直保持旺盛。 家。这更像是上世纪五六十年代的风格。 种类。顺便说一句，这些都不是。 声明出自本人，尽管我的 嘴巴在说这些话。这些都是事情 你听到的那些话，对吧？ 是的。 直接与你所想的相反 也就是说，并不是说什么 你说的错了。我只是觉得 当时大约有 20 人或 在那里的 30 年间，人们都很友善 人们曾认为一夫一妻制可以蓬勃发展。 是的。 尽管投入和一夫一妻制可能 如果人们能够蓬勃发展，或许会更好。 承认自我的这一方面，即 仍然吸引了其他人。他们谈论 关于它。你说的就是 其实更像是一件防护斗篷 围绕承诺。我确实能感觉到人们 正在逐渐回到你所处的那个方向 描述。你知道我是怎么想的 它是防护斗篷 嗯，那有点像是…… 基线，但随后信号会发生变化。 有时因为 你在 Instagram 上瞎逛，但是 有时是因为你去了酒吧 和朋友们一起，还有这件事 那个跟你搭讪的帅哥 我认为那里也有证据。 楼梯会如何解读它呢？ 以及你在数据中看到的内容 暗示着某种保护措施 它又一次玩火了。 但如果你查看那些研究，你会发现他们 询问人们是否有关于……的性幻想 你伴侣现在的性欲有多强？ 你是否对你的伴侣感到难过，这段感情已经结束了 太好了，这很简单 现在请你幻想一下关于我的性幻想 不知道第二名是谁。 那不是你的伴侣 然后你开始产生性欲。 对那个人来说，你开始拥有 对伴侣的性冲动 同时。所以，这正是这个比喻。 你描述的就是我们感觉的时候 一种吸引力，它可以反弹 交给我们的合作伙伴。顺便说一句，它 反过来则不会发生。好的。所以， 伴侣，你现在的伴侣 再说一遍，对大多数人来说，快乐 人际关系，占据特殊地位， 你可能会说，即使在有 有点威胁，而且我 注意到有人，它反弹了 有些。我不建议人们去 出去做这件事。你说的没错 反弹就像是燃料一样 埃丝特和 其他人也谈到过这一点。 真品。 是的。是的。是的。是的。是的。我是认真的 最近的研究我可以指出其中一项或多项。 二。它们都像是在最后 几年。 这将非常不舒服。 对某些人来说，听到他们的 伴侣可能会非常高兴回家 被他们吸引是因为他们有一些 白天的各种互动 要么被某人吸引，要么 接收到吸引力信号。 正确的。我百分之百同意 埃斯泰尔就是那个危险，那个问题 并不是说你的伴侣在性方面有问题 喜欢上了别人。问题 通常处于升级阶段。是的， 但现在他们就像反复悬挂一样。 和他们一起出去玩，就像…… 他们觉得这些谈话很秘密 关于你，或者你知道如果是你的话 你有什么秘密想要保密吗？那些是 发出警告信号，因为接下来会发生什么？ 开始发生的事情是保护作用的出现。 人们通常会在周围放置一层 他们的伴侣，这种关系就会开始瓦解。 那时人们处于更高的状态 出轨风险。通常情况下， 像这样进行。一个简单的事实是 我们可能会被其他人吸引。 对普通人来说这不是问题 关系。这是重复的跟随 通过那种吸引力，它变成了 一个问题。而这正是…… 近年来发展起来的用途 更多的是短暂的相互作用 那件事再也不会发生了。你 在飞机上坐在某人旁边，你会…… 进行一次对话。呃，可能有 或许没有吸引力，但你 发展出一定程度的亲密关系。一些 人们会在飞机上透露很多信息。 然后你就再也听不到他们的消息，也再没跟他们说过话了。 再次。如今，几乎总是 为人们提供后续跟进的机会 与人建立联系。就是这样 詹姆斯·斯通指的是……是的。什么时候 他谈到社交媒体是一个…… 呃，借用他人的语言 这里存在一个攻击向量，你知道，在 建立关系，也许这是一种好事。 那些致力于此的人的理由 摆脱社交关系 媒体时期。但这同时也是一个背景问题。 人们在哪里消费，也就是所谓的“消费”。 因其他原因与人相处的时间。 是啊，这很棘手。呃，如果……如果我不 建议采用这种方法 巩固你们的关系。我想如果 你会做的，你知道，试着去做。 通过观察别人来学习。嗯，是的。 谁是呃，是的。弄清楚你是不是 男人跟女人在一起，直接问她就行了。 她到底迷恋哪个男演员？ 请各位好心观看。 他主演的电影。或许就是这样 这是让这件事行得通的一种方法。 反之亦然。当然可以。 有些看起来像是 我见过的最坚强、最幸福的夫妻 我知道，我对他们知之甚少。 动态，时期。 是的。这挺有意思的。 它本身就是一件独立的事情，但其中一些 属于那个群体的人似乎有 相当放松 和睦相处，哦，是的，呃，某某 指的是他们的配偶非常喜欢的东西。 那位男演员或女演员。就像…… 这只是他们做的一件事。 我明白，但它在那边。 正确的？它离得很远。是的。 它不是，它不像迫在眉睫的危机 威胁。 如果是关于……那就完全不同了。 你们都喜欢并认识的人 花时间陪伴。远不止如此 在这些情况下，这是一种威胁。而且我 我认为这也是部分原因所在。 去聚合过程发生的原因是 这种威胁让人感觉非常不舒服。 即使是你的吸引力，比如 你其实想淡化这件事，因为 想到如果我……那意味着什么 就像和错的人在一起，或者像什么 如果事情失控，就会发生这种情况 控制权的丧失，对大多数人来说都是令人沮丧的。 人们。我的意思是，我们花了这么多时间来 建立一种关系，使其成为这样的东西 我们真正重视的是核心价值。 我们生活的一部分。那种想法就像 它可能随时消失 因为我们犯了一个错误 这样做，对大多数人来说都可能构成威胁。 人们。即使我们是在想象 我们自己 参与那些会带来 事情到此结束。 我听过一个非常恐怖的故事，可能会…… 可能没有参考价值。 我想应该是这样，也许你能帮帮我。 明白了。任何时候有人开始 我有个朋友，他讲了一个故事，然后…… （笑声） 虽然很奇怪，但这是基于我的一个观察结果。 很久以前 我当时正要去健身房，我有一个 真的只是柏拉图式的友谊 这个女人。呃，她会去健身房。 也。那时候，女性并不多。 说实话，我经常去健身房锻炼。喜欢 感觉好像没多少女性。 举重。就像是…… 那基本上是留给男生的，或者 对于女子健美运动员来说，她不是，但她不是。 她是一名健美运动员，但她喜欢举重 举重，身材超棒。她是个超级 如今已是一位功成名就的运动员。 有一天，当我们要离开的时候，她…… 当时我真的非常生气。我当时想，

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"What's up?" And she's like, "All these guys kept coming up to me." And I'm like, "Well, that's happening all the [clears throat] time." you know, she's like, "No, they were all really unattractive." And I said, "Okay, well, you're good at dealing with you." Like, she was very skilled. She's very beautiful then and now, and so very skilled at like saying, "Thanks, but no thanks." >> And then she said something that was absolutely like shocking to me that I've shared with other female friends and some men and they always go, "No way." And she said, "I feel like I have to go like flirt with a really attractive guy now." >> Wow. >> And it was clear that despite being incredibly attractive, incredibly accomplished and s athlete, >> was questioning her own value, this is very evo evolutionary biology, because the guys that were approaching her were in her mind very quote unquote low value, unattractive. Ah, >> it it like got to her, you know. Of course, my interpretation was, "Okay, guys, the next time a really attractive woman walks up to you and seems like she's chatting you up, >> you don't know that it's actually about you, you know, you know, like just know that it may not be about you." Like, like note to self. And what's wild is that years later I observed and talked to someone in a basically same dynamic, >> but she's married and she said, "Yeah, if a bunch of people hit people always hit on this this other woman, too." She's like, "If they do that, >> I sort of feel like I have to go kind of um get a clear perception again of whether or not I could be with an attractive guy." And now granted, she's married to a super successful, what anyone, male or female, would describe as super good-look guy, >> and they have a super stable family. And I thought to myself, >> "Oh my god." And I don't know that this is unique to women. I don't know. But it's kind of weird if you think about it. Now, it could be their unique insecurity, but it's like if data start coming in, >> let's flip it. date. If a lot of really attractive people of the opposite sex start talking to you, whoever's listening to this >> that you perhaps start to wonder if something >> important is going on there. There's information there. I just would like you to reflect on this. I've been perplexed by it for a long time. In some sense, it makes total sense, >> but as a scientist, I've learned, yeah, but >> just like like what's really going on here? I think the part of the story that's the most headscratching is that they're in relationships. So shouldn't they >> in the second case? >> Yeah. In the second case. So shouldn't they be getting the feedback that's positive on a regular basis? Anyway, let's for the sake of argument just assume that she was. So she was getting positive feedback at home and yet the experience of having less appealing men come up to her led her to feel like I need to do something to reaffirm my >> I think it was a question am I losing it was the was kind of the language that came up am I losing it whatever it was >> one of the reasons that scientifically I am out here like questioning the usefulness of the made value construct is because I know that people of quote unquote low value can have absolutely fantastic relationships and people of quote unquote high value can have absolutely terrible relationship. >> I observed that many many times. Sure. >> There you go. So that happens all the time. I think one of the strongest uh most uh like resonant things that made value does for us or the way that we experience it most acutely is indeed in the attention we get from strangers and or the junior high type scenarios that we talked about. So that we do have a level of attractiveness and it changes as we age. There is a consensus out there about how desirable we are. And that consensus is not going to stay exactly where it is. It's going to shift. And you might be in a relationship and be very happy with the person who unambiguously thinks you're a 10. And yet still wonder, what does everybody else think? Like do they think I'm a seven? Do they think I'm a four? What has happened to me? So I totally get that. That experience of how am I coming across to the world? Is it less than I thought it was? And that the only great information that you have is how strangers respond to you. It's sort of a funny way of flipping all of this stuff around because again, as a relationships researcher, my bias is always your husband thinks you're a 10. You think he's a 10. You won the lottery. Like that's it. You did it. But I acknowledge, yeah, there can be cases where we still wonder about what strangers think of us and it might matter to our sense of selfworth and sense of who we are. So, so I'm not going to judge it, but it is a fascinating flip of the way I typically think about these things. >> It makes me wonder whether that our um >> notions of self and this goes back to the what we were talking about before the Esther Prell thing and attractiveness that sort of boomerangs back into the relationship. something that's going to be uncomfortable for a lot of people to to hear, but at at some level all of it makes me wonder whether um there's a healthy compartmentalization >> that >> we could adopt as as a society. Which is not to say like anyone can be attracted to anyone and therefore commitment isn't real. >> Nor is it saying like okay when you're in a committed relationship it's it's a complete black box. Right. Right. Because there is this thing called the internet and there's this thing called the human psyche and you study it and around these issues. But maybe it's if people understood that those are two different things. >> Yeah. >> Sometimes we refer to it like as the shiny object, >> but that that's a an aspect of self or it's an aspect of of wanting that's not it's not not real. It's real, but that maybe there's a way to compartmentalize it so that it's has the potential to be toxic to relationship. Yeah. >> But acknowledging that it's real, that it's part of our wiring >> might diffuse some of its power. >> Like I said, some of these couples that are like, "Oh, yeah." Like, what's the the phrase couples have where they're like, "Oh, you get a it's like a hall pass." >> Oh, yeah. >> Which is never going to happen, right? She's like, you know, so and so, you know, my wife gets a hall my I get a hall pass with cuz basically it's never going to happen, right? So, it's not really a hall pass. It's a it's a it's a hall pass that uh exists in this alternate universe where um the other person could actually sleep with someone. >> Be careful with the hall notion because I don't know where that could lead. I'm not suggesting >> not a protocol I suggest. Not a protocol I suggest. >> But um it's kind of interesting because uh the parallel that comes to mind is you know if you're in Los Angeles long enough you get to know some people who are actors. Yeah. And from time to time, you'll run into somebody, male or female, who is who was a spectacular actor, had an amazing run on a comedy series or movies, and they're no longer working. And it is a >> biodal distribution. People who are happy and content and focusing on their life and can see that was the younger, more attractive, >> working, funny, sexy, whatever. And this is men and women versus the like tortured I'm not getting work, the work is not as good as it used to be. I mean there it's like and I've seen this with people who had uh fame young for other reasons in sports and things like that and they are crushed. >> And so what you want to say is like just realize that you have this awesome aspect of self that doesn't live in you right now anymore, but it's still you. Like you got that. >> Yeah. You know, I think there's a similarity here. Like if people just be like, I've got everything I need and I'm good because yeah, that other stuff exists and I feel good about it. Not like I'm gonna pretend it doesn't exist. Seems like they could be a very functional way to move through life for people who have this insecurity. I totally agree. And in fact, I'll even go a step further, which is to say, I try. I don't always succeed, but I try to think this way about relationships that have come and gone, too. Because I think there's a real tendency I mean I was going to say in our culture but it might be a lot of cultures to see like past relationships that have ended and I'll even put divorces in this category to look back and say I failed. And I think people reinforce this even unintentionally. You know you you go through a breakup a dating breakup and people say I'm so sorry. I know what that's like. come over and have some ice cream. You go through a divorce and people say, "Well, what happened?" Because they're trying to make sure that it doesn't happen to them because they're interpreting it as a failure. And boy, I think if we give each other a little bit of grace and see it all as, yeah, that was a thing that happened. It was real. It mattered in that moment. Things happened along the way. It it it didn't work out. I changed. You changed. like being able to accept that like all of those things are real and have or had value. You know, I'd love to try to encourage people to do that. I know like there's so many people out there right now who are like, "Yeah, but my ex is a dick." And I I'm with you. I totally get that. And to the extent that there's any ability to hold these two thoughts in mind simultaneously, I think it's good. >> My girlfriend and I have a rule. We don't have many rules. One of the rules is we don't talk negatively about anyone else that we've ever been with. >> We we were very comfortable with the fact that we've had previous relationships because early on we realize that like in the end
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“这是怎么回事？”她就说：“所有这些 男人们不停地过来搭讪。”而我 比如，“嗯，这种情况一直在发生……” [清嗓子] 时间到了。”你知道，她 比如，“不，他们其实都很……” 缺乏吸引力。 我说：“好吧，你很擅长……” 和你打交道。” 就像，她非常 熟练。她那时非常漂亮。 现在，他非常擅长说…… “谢谢，不过不用了。” 然后她说了些什么…… 我简直不敢相信自己竟然…… 和其他女性朋友分享过 有些男人总是会说：“绝对不行。” 她说：“我觉得我必须走了。” 比如和一位非常有魅力的男士调情 现在。” 哇。 很明显，尽管 极具吸引力，非常 完成 以及一名运动员， 她开始质疑自身的价值，这是 非常进化生物学，因为 那些接近她的男生是 在她看来，非常低 价值低，缺乏吸引力。啊， 这件事好像影响到了她，你知道吗？的 当然，我的理解是，“好的， 伙计们，下次遇到特别有吸引力的人时…… 一个女人走到你面前，看起来像 她正在跟你搭讪， 你不知道它实际上是关于 你，你知道，你知道，就像就是知道 这可能与你无关。比如， 就像给自己记的笔记。而最疯狂的是…… 多年后，我观察并谈论了这件事。 对处于基本相同境况的人来说， 但她已婚，她说：“是的， 如果一群人总是打人 他也勾搭了另一个女人。 她说道：“如果他们那样做， 我感觉我好像得走了。 嗯，再次获得清晰的认识 我是否能和……在一起 帅哥。” 现在，她当然是了。 嫁给一个超级成功的人，什么 任何人，无论男女，都会描述 作为一位外形超级帅的男士， 他们的家庭非常稳定。和 我心想， “我的天啊。”我不知道这一点。 这是女性特有的。我不知道。但 仔细想想，这其实挺奇怪的。 它。现在，这可能是他们的独特之处。 不安全感，但就像数据开始一样 进来， 我们来换个角度。日期。如果有很多真的 异性中有吸引力的人 开始和你说话，不管是谁 听着这个 你或许会开始怀疑： 某物 那里正在发生重要的事情。有 那里有相关信息。我只是想念你 思考一下这个问题。我一直感到困惑 买它很久了。从某种意义上说，它 完全说得通。 但作为一名科学家，我明白了，是的。 但 就像，到底发生了什么？ 这里？我认为故事的这一部分 最令人费解的是…… 他们都有伴侣。所以不应该 他们 第二种情况呢？ 是的。第二种情况。所以不应该 他们会收到反馈 经常是正面的吗？ 总之，为了便于讨论，我们先这样吧。 就假设她是吧。所以她是 在家获得积极反馈 然而，拥有较少的经验却令人感到遗憾。 有魅力的男人们主动接近她，这让她…… 感觉我需要做点什么 重申我的 我想那是个问题：我是不是疯了？ 那是那种语言 突然冒出一个念头：我是不是疯了？不管是什么。 其中一个原因是，从科学角度来说，我认为…… 我在这里质疑 已创造价值结构的实用性 因为我知道引用的人 低价值绝对可以 良好的人际关系和人们 所谓“高价值”可能拥有 一段糟糕透顶的关系。 我多次观察到这种情况。当然。 好了。所以这种情况一直都在发生。 时间。 我认为最强的呃，最呃 就像那些能产生共鸣、创造价值的事物一样 对我们而言，或者对我们而言的方式 最深刻地体验到这一点的确是在 我们从陌生人那里得到的关注以及 或者初中那种情景 我们谈到了。所以，我们确实有一个 吸引力水平及其变化 随着年龄增长。已达成共识 这里谈到了我们有多么受欢迎。和 这种共识不会一直持续下去。 它就在那里。它将 转移。你可能正处于…… 建立关系并对此感到非常满意 明确无误的人 他觉得你是十分。然而仍然 想知道其他人是怎么想的？ 他们觉得我是七分吗？他们会吗？ 你觉得我是四号吗？发生了什么事？ 我？我完全理解。那 我如何看待自己的表现？ 世界？比我想象的要少吗？ 曾是？而这才是唯一的重要信息 你所拥有的，正是陌生人如何回应的。 给你。这是一种有点滑稽的方式 把所有这些都颠倒过来 因为再次强调，作为一种关系 研究员，我的偏见始终是你的 你老公觉得你美得像个 10 分美女。你觉得 他简直完美，你中了彩票。喜欢 就是这样。你做到了。但我 承认，是的，可能会出现这种情况。 我们仍然想知道什么 陌生人会想到我们，这或许会…… 关乎我们的自我价值感和 我们对自己身份的认知。所以，我不是 我会做出评判，但这确实是一个 这真是一次令人着迷的转变，与我通常的方式截然不同。 想想这些事。 这让我不禁怀疑，我们的…… 自我概念，这可以追溯到…… 我们之前在讨论的话题 埃丝特·普雷尔那件事 那种反噬式的吸引力 重回这段感情。某物 那会让某人感到不舒服。 很多人都想听，但在某些情况下 这一切都让我不禁思考： 嗯，这很健康 分隔化 那 我们作为一个社会可以采纳这种做法。那就是 并不是说任何人都会被吸引 对任何人而言，承诺都不是承诺。 真实的。 这也不是说当你……的时候，就像“好的”那样。 在一段稳定的恋爱关系中，这是一种 完全黑匣子。正确的。正确的。 因为有这么一种东西叫做 互联网上还有这么个东西，叫做 人类心理，你研究它， 围绕这些问题。但也许是如果 人们明白那是两个 不同的事情。 是的。 有时我们这样称呼它： 闪亮的物体， 但那是自我的一个方面，或者 这是欲望的一个方面，但并非如此。 这不是假的。这是真的，但是…… 或许有办法将其分类隔离。 它具有成为……的潜力 对关系有害。是的。 但承认它是真实存在的， 这是我们线路的一部分 可能会分散其部分力量。 就像我说的，这些夫妇中有些 就像是，“哦，是啊。”比如，什么是 夫妻之间常说的这句话 比如，“哦，你得到一个就像大厅一样的东西。” 经过。” 哦，是的。 这永远不可能发生，对吧？ 她就像，你知道，某某某，你 我知道，我妻子得到一个大厅，我得到一个 因为基本上从来没有过通行证。 肯定会发生，对吧？所以，并非如此。 简直就是一张通行证。这是一个 这是一个 这是一个 通行证，呃，存在于此 平行宇宙，嗯，另一个 这个人实际上可以和……睡觉 某人。 要谨慎对待大厅这个概念，因为 我不知道这会导致什么后果。我是 并非暗示 我不建议采用这种方案。并非协议 我建议。 但是，嗯，这还挺有意思的，因为 嗯，我首先想到的类比是…… 你知道，如果你在洛杉矶待很久的话。 足够多的人，你就能认识一些人， 都是演员。是的。而且时不时地， 你会遇到某个人，男性或女性 一位女性，她是一位非常出色的人。 这位演员在喜剧方面表现出色。 剧集或电影，它们不再是 在职的。而且它 生物分布。那些人 快乐满足，专注于自身 生活，可以看出那是更年轻的那一个， 更具吸引力， 在职的， 搞笑的、性感的，都行。这就是男人 以及女性遭受的类似酷刑 我找不到工作，工作也不太好。 和以前一样好。我的意思是，它就在那里。 我也见过这种情况，有些人就是这样。 年轻时因其他原因成名 体育运动之类的，他们是 碎。 所以你想表达的意思就像是…… 意识到你拥有这项了不起的技能 不存在于你体内的自我面向 现在可能不是了，但你还是你。 就像你明白的那样。 是的。你知道，我觉得有 两者有相似之处。就像如果人们只是 就像，我已经拥有了我需要的一切，而且我 很好，因为，是的，还有其他那些事。 存在，我对此感到欣慰。不是 就好像我要假装它不存在一样。 他们似乎很有可能非常 以实用的方式度过人生 有这种不安全感的人。我 完全同意。事实上，我甚至会去 更进一步，也就是说，我尝试一下。 我并非总能成功，但我会尽力而为。 这样看待人际关系 也曾有人来过，也曾有人离开。因为我觉得 确实存在这种趋势，我的意思是，我曾经也是。 在我们的文化中，可能会这么说，但也许 有很多文化可以体验，就像过去一样。 已经结束的关系，我会 甚至将离婚也归入这一类 回头看时，我会说我失败了。我觉得 人们甚至强化了这一点 无意中。你知道你去 通过分手，一段感情的破裂，以及 人们说我很抱歉。我知道什么 那就像。过来喝点冰吧 奶油。你经历了离婚， 人们会问：“到底发生了什么事？” 因为他们试图确保 这种事不会发生在他们身上，因为 他们将其解读为一次失败。 哎呀，我觉得如果我们互相给予对方 心存一丝宽容，并将这一切视为： 是的，确实发生过这件事。它 是真的。在那一刻，这很重要。 一路上发生了一些事。它它 没成功。我变了。你变了。 就像能够接受这一切一样 这些事情都是真实存在的，而且曾经存在过。 价值。你知道，我很想尝试一下 鼓励人们这样做。我知道像 外面人那么多，对吧？ 现在有些人会说：“是啊，但我前任是……” “迪克。”我同意你的看法。我完全明白。 那。而且，如果真有任何程度的话。 能够同时思考这两种想法 同时，我觉得这样挺好。 我和我女朋友之间有个不成文的规定。我们 规则不多。其中一条规则 我们不会说任何人的坏话。 我们以前交往过的其他任何人。 我们 他们对此感到非常自在， 我们之前有过恋爱关系，因为 我们很早就意识到，就像最后那样。

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英文原文
like that's all about our choices. So it's kind of a crazy argument. Um and uh and she said something beautiful. She said like I'm grateful to all the good and bad things that you've had to experience regardless of you know and I said the same to her because the relationship is great and we bring that >> and I do think it was built on the trials and tribulations and great things you know now I'm careful to not ask too many questions and she's careful to ask not ask too many we we actually have um uh selective uh ignorance around around certain we just like I don't care like I genuinely don't >> go down certain lines of inquiry and she doesn't either. And I think it's great. >> I think it's great. I think it's uh it sets up like a you're the we're here now. This is time move from now forward and where it goes we determine that. But but histories are real >> and I have always admired I have a few friends that um paired up >> very early and they went through all these developmental milestones together, first jobs, some even graduate college as couples, kids, you know, all this stuff. And there's something really beautiful about people that you you have a long developmental trajectory to big milestones that they reach together. Nowadays, people are pairing up later. They're getting divorced and remarrying. It's harder to build a common narrative, >> right? >> Is there any data about common narrative good or bad like we went through a lot can be building as well. Is time together a factor? Like when you control for everything else, is duration of relationship an indicator of sort of quality and satisfaction of relationship? >> So if we're looking strictly at relationship duration, honestly, on average, it tends to be a bad sign. In other words, wait a second. Staying together is bad. >> Yeah. No, no, it just means that like that over time people were the happiest early on in their relationship than they are today. Right. It actually kind of a bummer. Um >> can you just break up and get back together a bunch? >> Yeah. Right. Okay. >> We don't study that. We should um that might have some problems volunteering. >> Yeah. But let me say this. the the narrative, right? The idea that we experienced a lot, that we grew, that we faced all these obstacles, that is huge. So, it's so so literal time is not the best metric to capture, I think, the essence of what you're getting at. It's a sense that like we were in this together and that we had a shared story. This is also why breakups are so hard because not only are you often losing a source of support, perhaps for men it might be more likely to be their only source of support. Not only um do you have to face the possibility of getting back out there, but you're also losing the continuity with yourself. you're losing the stories and the narratives that you've built with this other person and all of those memories and all of those components. >> Well, I think that's why it can feel like a failure because there's this understandable and I think very desirable wish that the >> it's like a novel. It's going to have a beginning, a middle, and an end >> and the end is death. >> Like we're going to till death do us part. That is written into the script, right? And so I think if it ends early, I think a lot of people don't know how to integrate it into their life story. >> Yeah. >> The evolutionary biology part, which seems very real to me, >> is that all we have is time and energy. Yeah. >> And when we invest, >> time is running. There's no doover, right? >> You know, there's [laughter] no doover. So I think that people carry a lot of resent about the time lost. >> Yeah. and and the energy and the investments that you put into it. But and I think I think it's useful to think about those investments as being about like self and story and that to the extent that you can use it as an opportunity to like whether it's like reinvent or recreate or you know you preserve some of the parts of yourself from the prior relationship but maybe not all the prior parts of yourself. there are some things that you'd rather let go. To the extent that you can hold on to the good parts of the story, the parts that you want to remember, that you want to keep, it' be so painful when you're going through the breakup in the first place that I think a lot of times people just want to like take all of it, put it in a box, and get rid of it. Definitely throw away the photos at some point. >> Yeah. Yeah. Although, although now everything's, you know, in the cloud, it's very, very challenging. Hypothalamus versus forebrain. Does the good primitive stuff, >> meaning, >> yep, >> sexual attractiveness, outweigh the ability to think about how great someone is? Ideally, there's both. >> Yeah. >> But the good lover beats stated preferences model. >> Yeah. >> Is something that, >> okay, >> you've talked about before. In other words, is the real glue in a long-term relationship some form of physical intimacy that in or put differently, can we think and talk our way perhaps to ourselves? >> Yeah. >> Forward through a relationship that doesn't have that physical intimacy. Usually, you will see that things like sexual satisfaction or sexual desire for your partner are going to be pretty tightly related to how you feel about the relationship in general. It's an important component. I wouldn't say it's an essential component or even the central component for many people, but for other people it certainly can be. And I again I do believe in the church of Esther Pel which is that there are ways of recultivating sexual feelings about somebody that actually our sexual feelings about somebody. It's not like a switch where it's just on or it's off and we know just when we look at them that sometimes it's about the things we're talking about the time we spend together or the time that we spend apart and that that can be rekindling in various ways. So I think the key thing for me is not to engage in fatalism about the sexual desire component. That when like the when the passion fades in a relationship, that doesn't mean that it's gone forever. It might not be something that you feel like every day at 7:00 p.m. anymore. It might be the kind of thing that that comes to the four in certain circumstances or when you're not totally exhausted. I think that's okay. And a lot of relationships can absolutely thrive under those circumstances. And you can push it to extremes, too, where it's like, "My partner hasn't been sexually attracted to me in, you know, years and years." Like, that's going to be tough. And part of the reason that's tough is because you don't have the sexual intimacy. But also part of the reason it's tough is cuz it's making me feel terrible about myself. So these things all like cascade in various negative ways, but I think they can also be be helped in ways too that you know that engage some of these more, you know, the parts of our brains that at least we're more uh aware of and and have some agency over. >> So is it true that sexual attractiveness that rating the person's uh a person rating their partner as a quote unquote good lover is among the strongest predictors of how positively they feel about their partner because that's that I I really appreciate your answer, but I I want to make sure that if that's true, that comes comes through because what I'm hearing is yes, it can those feelings can uh wax and wayne and yes, life circumstances and raising kids and job and stress. Yes. Yes. And yes, I think uh everyone including me acknowledges that. But this idea that it's not important after a certain stage or that a really healthy romantic relationship can exist without that. What I'm hearing is the data >> point in the other direction. >> No, that is absolutely correct. the the subjective sense that and that's exactly the wording that we use the subjective sense that like this person that I am with or or this person that in that study we have people who are in relationships but we also have people who are reporting on like just folks that they're initially attracted to. But in both it actually doesn't really matter. In both cases, feeling like this person is a good lover or likely to be a good lover in the case of the attraction scenarios is a very very good sign for how [clears throat] positively you feel about the relationship in general and whether you want the relationship to continue it. But again, it's that it's that subjective sense and that's that's kind of where I'm getting to this component of like if if I start to feel like you're not a great lover, like that's going to rebound. So that then you don't feel desirable and it's going to sort of cascade in all of these negative ways. >> All seems to converge on it's an important feature of romantic relationships to cultivate protect from you know Yeah. And you describe some to me surprising um >> you know I I I think for some reason it it makes total sense and yet it's surprising that this kind of energy from the outside can >> provide positive support to the relationship. Um, but [clears throat] Esther said it, excuse me, has said it and others have said it. So, >> very interesting. Final question. Sounds like a game show. Final question. [laughter] Um, >> billion dollar question. >> Your course on this topic and related topics is incredibly popular for obvious reasons. It's super interesting topic. I mean at at the end of the day like our species evolved through these dynamics you know it it wasn't all like you know club the the lion you know gather food make it was there was a lot of dynamics
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好像这一切都取决于我们的选择。所以 这简直是个荒谬的论点。嗯，还有呃 她说了些很美的话。她 我说得好像我很感激所有美好的事物。 以及你不得不做的糟糕的事情 无论你是否了解我的经历 我也对她说了同样的话，因为 关系很好，我们带来了这一点。 而且我认为它是建立在……之上的。 考验、磨难和伟大的事 你知道我现在很小心，不会问太多问题。 她问了很多问题，而且问得很谨慎。 不要问太多，我们其实有…… 呃，选择性的，呃，周围的无知 确定我们就像我不在乎一样，就像我 真的不 她沿着某些调查方向进行询问。 也不。我觉得这很棒。 我觉得很棒。我觉得是…… 就像“你是，我们在这里”一样 现在。现在是时候向前迈进了。 至于它最终去向，则由我们决定。但 但历史是真实的。 我一直很欣赏我拥有的一些 朋友们结伴而行 很早就开始了，他们经历了一切 这些发展里程碑共同构成了 第一份工作，有些人甚至是大学毕业后的第一份工作。 作为夫妻、孩子，你知道，所有这些 东西。而且确实有些事情 你身上那些美好的品质，你拥有的。 漫长的发展轨迹，最终成就大 他们共同达成的里程碑。 如今，人们配对的时间越来越晚了。 他们要离婚然后再婚。 构建共同叙事更加困难。 正确的？ 是否有关于共同叙事的任何数据 不管是好是坏，我们都经历了很多。 也可以是建筑工地。时机已到 共同构成一个因素？就像你控制的时候 对于其他所有事情，持续时间为 关系 某种质量指标和 对这段关系的满意度如何？ 所以如果我们只看…… 恋爱关系持续时间 说实话，平均而言，它往往是一个 不祥之兆。换句话说，稍等片刻。 在一起不好。 是的。不，不，它的意思就是像 随着时间的推移，人们变得越来越幸福 在他们关系的早期阶段，他们 就是今天。正确的。它实际上有点像 真可惜。嗯 你们能不能分手然后复合？ 一群人在一起？ 是的。正确的。好的。 我们不研究这个。我们应该…… 可能在做志愿者方面会遇到一些问题。 是的。但我想说的是……的 叙述， 正确的？我们经历的想法 很多，我们成长了，我们面对了一切 这些障碍，确实巨大。所以，就是这样。 所以，字面意义上的时间并不是最好的。 我认为，衡量指标能够捕捉到本质。 你想表达的意思是什么？这是一种感觉 感觉就像我们一起并肩作战一样。 我们有着共同的故事。这也是 为什么分手这么难？因为…… 你只是经常会失去一个资源 支持，或许对男性来说可能是 更有可能成为他们唯一的收入来源 支持。你不仅要面对 重新出发的可能性 在那里，但你也失去了…… 与自己保持一致。你输了 这些故事和叙述 你和这个人一起建立了…… 所有这些回忆和所有这些 成分。 嗯，我想这就是为什么它会有这种感觉的原因。 就像失败一样，因为有这个 可以理解，而且我认为非常 令人向往的愿望是 这简直就像一部小说。它将有一个 开头、中间和结尾 而结局就是死亡。 就像我们会一直这样下去，直到死亡将我们带走。 部分。剧本里写得很清楚。 正确的？所以我觉得如果它提前结束的话， 我认为很多人不知道如何 将其融入他们的人生故事中。 是的。 进化生物学部分， 我觉得这很真实。 我们所拥有的只有时间和精力。 是的。 当我们投资时， 时间不多了。没有重来的机会， 正确的？ 你知道，[笑]没有重来的机会。 所以我认为人们背负着很多…… 对浪费的时间感到不满。 是的。以及能量和 你投入其中的投资。但 我认为思考这个问题是有用的。 关于这些投资，我认为是关于 就像自我和故事 并且在你能使用的范围内 把它看作一个喜欢它的机会 这就像重新发明或重新创造，或者你 我知道你保留了某些部分 摆脱上一段感情，但 或许并非所有先前的部分 你自己。有些事情 你宁愿放手。就此而言 你可以保留好的部分 故事，你想看的部分 记住，你想保留它，它就是 经历这一切时真的太痛苦了 首先，我认为分手是首要原因。 很多时候，人们只是想喜欢而已。 把所有东西都拿走，装进盒子里，然后拿走 扔掉它。一定要扔掉 某个时候会拍些照片。 是的。是的。虽然，虽然现在 你知道，一切都在云端。 这非常具有挑战性。 下丘脑与前脑。是否 不错的原始物品， 意义， 是的， 性吸引力胜过 能够思考某人有多么伟大 是？理想情况下，两者兼备。 是的。 但这位好情人却说…… 偏好模型。 是的。 这是某件事， 好的， 你之前也谈到过。在其他方面 言语才是维系长久关系的真正纽带。 关系 某种形式的身体亲密行为 或者换句话说，我们能否思考和 或许我们可以用对话的方式找到自己？ 是的。 通过一段关系向前迈进 缺乏那种身体上的亲密感。 通常你会看到诸如此类的事情 性满足或性欲 你的伴侣将会非常漂亮 这与你对……的感受密切相关 这种关系总体而言。这是一个 重要组成部分。我不会说它是 一个重要组成部分，甚至是 对许多人来说，这是核心要素，但是 对其他人来说，当然可能是这样。 我再次重申，我确实相信教会。 埃丝特·佩尔的意思是，有 重新培育的方法 对某人产生性方面的感觉 实际上，我们对性的感觉 某人。这不像是一个开关， 它要么开，要么关，我们都知道。 当我们看着它们的时候，有时 关键在于我们正在谈论的事情。 关于我们在一起的时间，或者 我们分开的时间，以及那段时间 可以通过多种方式重新点燃激情。所以，我 我认为对我来说最关键的是不要 对性抱持宿命论的态度 欲望成分。就像…… 当激情消退时 关系， 但这并不意味着它已经消失了。 永远。这或许不是什么…… 你感觉每天晚上 7 点 不再是了。这或许就是那种事。 也就是说，这四个方面都很重要。 在某些情况下，或者当你并非完全…… 筋疲力尽的。 我觉得没问题。而且很多 人际关系绝对可以蓬勃发展。 在这种情况下。而且你可以 也可以将其推向极端，使其变成 比如，“我的伴侣没有性生活” 多年来，她一直被我吸引，你知道的。 “几年。” 感觉会很艰难。 而这之所以困难，部分原因是 因为你没有性欲 亲密关系。但这同时也是部分原因 之所以觉得难受，是因为它让我感觉 对自己非常失望。所以这些东西 所有这些都像各种负面的级联一样。 方式，但我认为它们也可以是 在某些方面也起到了帮助作用，你知道的。 你知道，要更多地参与到这些事情中来。 我们大脑的某些部分，至少我们…… 更了解并且有一些 代理结束。 那么，性吸引力真的会……吗？ 给这个人评分，呃，就是给一个人评分。 给他们的伴侣打分，就像…… 好的爱人是 在预测如何变化的最强预测因素中， 他们对伴侣抱有积极的看法 因为那就是我真的 感谢您的回答，但我还想…… 确保如果情况属实，那么 事情进展顺利，因为我就是 是的，听力可以带来这些感觉。 可以呃，蜡和韦恩，是的，生活 环境、抚养孩子和工作 以及压力。是的。是的。是的，我认为 呃，包括我在内的所有人都承认 那。但这种想法并非如此。 在某个阶段之后变得重要，或者说 一段非常健康的恋爱关系 没有它也能存在。我听到的 数据 指向另一个方向。 没错，完全正确。的 主观感受，而这正是如此。 我们所使用的措辞是主观的 感觉就像我认识的这个人一样 与此人或此人 我们有研究对象在…… 人际关系，但我们也有人 报道这些事情的人就像普通人一样 他们最初被吸引的地方。但 实际上，两者之间并没有真正的联系。 事情。在这两种情况下，都有这种感觉。 这个人是个好情人，或者很可能是个…… 好的情人，在吸引力方面。 这种情况是一个非常好的迹象 你感觉如何？（清嗓子） 关于这段关系的总体情况 你是否希望这段关系 继续。但话说回来，关键就在于此。 那种主观感受，就是这样。 我大概要说到这个了 就像如果我开始感觉 就好像你不是个很棒的情人，就像 那将会反弹。所以， 你觉得自己没有吸引力，而且这种情况正在发生 以某种方式在所有这些方面产生连锁反应 消极的方式。 一切似乎都指向同一个结论：这是一个 浪漫主义的重要特征 建立和维护关系，以保护自身免受伤害 你知道，是的。你描述了一些 让我惊讶的是 你知道吗，我觉得不知为何 这完全合情合理，然而…… 令人惊讶的是，这种能量来自 外面可以 为……提供积极支持 关系。嗯，但是[清嗓子] 埃丝特说过，抱歉，是已经说过了。 其他人也这么说过。所以， 很有意思。最后一个问题。声音 就像游戏节目一样。最后一个问题。 [笑声] 嗯， 价值十亿美元的问题。 您开设的关于此主题及相关内容的课程 话题非常受欢迎，原因显而易见。 原因。这是一个非常有趣的话题。我 归根结底，就像我们一样 物种正是通过这些动态过程演化而来的。 你知道，事情并不像你想象的那样。 你知道，俱乐部里的狮子会收集食物 让它变得有很多动态因素

02:40:00 - 02:50:00

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I always chuckle when people say like you know stress is a holdover from when we were being hunted by saber-tooth type no that's complete like nonsense it was also there for when your spouse went hunting for the day or gathering and you didn't know if they were going to come back or they came back after sundown when normally They're there at sundown and it's for when your baby was sick. Like this notion that like stress was only about pation. Like so it's just so stupid. I'd like to uh have words with whoever came up with that. It's so dumb. It makes no it's not true. >> What are the questions that students are asking most often nowadays? Because I realize that as a, you know, 50-year-old male, uh, I suffer from a number of different delusions about relationships as it is for people in their 20s. uh 30s now. Um and maybe for everybody because we're all in our own experience. But I think even though the college classroom is not a perfect sample by any stretch presumably there a lot of different people in there. >> Yeah. >> Men, women, right? Some are most are probably straight, some are gay on average 2%. Like you're going to get a lot of questions. What are the big questions that that people seem to want answered that you're just hearing over and over again that are both in the direction of like this is a challenge but also like what's going right out there? Is anything going right? >> I think most of the questions are about like like there is often an assumption that like >> yeah but these days it's so screwed up like that's what they're saying. >> Yeah. like the I mean you just have this undercurrent. It's almost like and I worry about this sometimes that when I teach the science on these topics there's a general sense of okay but that this is science from the before times like what like today when the the apps have have controlled everything and like nobody goes out anymore like what are we supposed to do and sometimes I fall back on the well look like these these groups and things like we were talking about these clubs. They're still out there. You can still get out there and meet people. >> Activities. >> Yeah. Activities like through these avenues. They tend to work pretty well. And at the same time, I have to acknowledge that the generations are going to change and these folks experiences will be different than the experiences that my generation had. So I think in many ways this ends up being the challenge to like to convey the science to folks but also do it in a way that shows that you're being responsive and aware of the fact that any generation feels like but things have changed now and sometimes it takes a while to know like what has really changed. I do think that these students go out less often. I think they drink less often. I think they are they aren't spending time socializing in the same way and they're interfacing more with technology that's probably helping some people and it's probably really making it hard for some other people and so um you know I try to like live the example of hey like I spent time hanging out with people in groups and it was hard and I got rejected and you know my high school girlfriend dumped me but I ended up doing okay and um I hope that other people can like resonate with that message in my glasses. >> Love it. And I'm also hearing um perhaps don't just sign up for something, but be the person who organizes it. >> Yeah. Yeah. I love this. I love this. >> Like you can throw a picnic or a party and uh >> when I was a graduate student at Davis, uh I often didn't make it cuz I was in lab, but um every Friday there was a pickup beach volleyball game. >> Oh, that's fantastic. And then people would go to uh there was a Thai restaurant that was that was also a bar. >> That night sometimes ended the next morning. There was a tattoo shop right across the street that closed called American Graffiti. >> Oh yeah. >> Yeah. That some people got tattoos. Do not recommend and definitely don't get tattooed drunk. Probably don't even get Do what you want. But um [laughter] but but it was every Friday and there was only one rule which is that you had to at least attempt to do the kind of like bump set approach to beach volleyball. You couldn't just hit it across [laughter] >> and it didn't matter how bad you were, you know, >> you had to do the three >> and then everyone would go Thai food. >> Some people would have >> drinks if they drank. Somebody would have a lot of drinks they definitely drank. >> It's just a really cool thing. Anyone could come. >> Yeah. Things like that happened a lot and it took like zero planning. It was an email that basically just went out and no one person was in charge. It was just kind of in the collective. Yeah. >> They did uh like cooking competition things where >> you'd meet at someone's house and everyone would have to bring like a particular dish and then everyone would try them. And I had no time in graduate school. I was working all the time. I would make time for these things occasionally and they were a lot of fun. Like these things are super easy to do. Yeah, >> you don't have to have any real athletic ability or cooking ability, trust me. Um, it I just feel like there's so much opportunity for that, but the barrier must be really there for people if they're not doing these things cuz I think it was just reflexive. >> Technology has a pull. >> Um, and we can say it's the phones. Um, but we could also say that it's whatever is on your TV. I mean, there's lots of reasons these days for people to stay in that just weren't there 20 to 30 years ago. I'd hope that the message would resonate like you know gang like like these whether it's the entertainment companies or the apps they're they're trying to keep you away from real socialization. Young people, don't you like rebelling and stuff? Rebel against this, you know. Exactly. Like form these groups. go out and meet people again in person. I think it's coming back. >> I I really do. I I think the pand I think it's like it was like a long pandemic hangover where we we just kind of forgot this part of our social architecture, but but it's coming back. It it didn't go anywhere. We're still social creatures and we also have these great frontal loes. And even if you don't feel like going out and interacting with people, you can kind of nudge yourself to do it. Um, and I I think uh I think that's pretty fantastic. Thank you so much for the work you do. It's very brave. It's very brave because it runs right up against some long-standing theories of which I, you know, I I still think very highly of of a good fraction of the evolutionary biology and psychology literature. I now have to filter it through these new findings. Um, but you've created your own new field basically. uh which is of course why your book which we'll provide a link to um and your work is is so popular and and it I love the optimism that it shines into every interaction. I'm sure people picked up on that that you're not a doom and gloom guy, you're a solutions guy. Really appreciate your time here. Um many people will thank you both those in relationship. you learn some things to, you know, armor your relationship, understand your relationship better yourself, and uh and for those who are who are seeking partners or who are just observing the world around them and are content where they're at, um they're going to benefit. So, thank you so much. Really appreciate you. >> Thank you so much for having me. >> Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Paul Eastwick. To learn more about his work and to find a link to his book, Bonded by Evolution: The New Science of Love and Connection, please see the links in the show notes caption. If you're learning from andor enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel. That's a terrific zerocost way to support us. In addition, please follow the podcast by clicking the follow button on both Spotify and Apple. And on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five-star review. And you can now leave us comments at both Spotify and Apple. Please also check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode. That's the best way to support this podcast. If you have questions for me or comments about the podcast or guests or topics that you'd like me to consider for the Huberman Lab podcast, please put those in the comment section on YouTube. I do read all the comments. For those of you that haven't heard, I have a new book coming out. It's my very first book. It's entitled Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body. This is a book that I've been working on for more than five years and that's based on more than 30 years of research and experience. And it covers protocols for everything from sleep to exercise to stress control protocols related to focus and motivation. And of course, I provide the scientific substantiation for the protocols that are included. The book is now available by pre-sale at protocolsbook.com. There you can find links to various vendors. You can pick the one that you like best. Again, the book is called Protocols, an operating manual for the human body. And if you're not already following me on social media, I am Huberman Lab on all social media platforms. So that's Instagram, X, Threads, Facebook, and LinkedIn. And on all those platforms, I discuss science and science related tools, some of which overlaps with the content of the Huberman Lab podcast, but much of which is distinct from the information on the Huberman Lab podcast. Again, it's Huberman Lab on all social media platforms. And if you haven't already subscribed to our neural network newsletter, the neural network newsletter is a zerocost monthly newsletter that includes podcast summaries as well as what we call protocols in the form of 1 to three-page PDFs that cover everything from how to optimize your sleep, how to optimize dopamine, deliberate cold exposure. 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中文译文
每当人们说“像”的时候，我总是忍不住笑出声来。 你知道压力是过去遗留下来的。 我们当时正被剑齿虎追捕。 不，那完全是胡说八道。 当你的配偶去世时，那里也需要有人陪伴。 当天狩猎或采集，而你 不知道他们会不会来 他们回来了，或者说他们在日落后回来了。 通常情况下，他们会在日落时分到达那里。 这是给宝宝生病时用的。 就像这种认为压力是……的想法一样 只是关于 pation。就是这样，就是这样 愚蠢的。我想和……谈谈。 不管是谁想出这个主意的。真是太蠢了。 它并不能证明这不是真的。 学生们提出的问题有哪些？ 现在问得最多的问题是什么？因为我 要意识到，作为一个，你知道的，50 岁的人 男性，呃，我患有多种疾病 关于人际关系的不同错觉 就像 20 多岁的人一样。 呃，现在 30 多岁了。嗯，也许对所有人来说都是如此 因为我们每个人都身处各自的经历之中。 但我认为，即使大学 教室绝非任何事物的完美样本。 伸展运动大概有很多 里面有不同的人。 是的。 男人，女人，对吧？有些是大多数 可能是异性恋，也有一些是同性恋。 平均 2%。就像你会得到一个 很多问题。有哪些大问题？ 人们似乎想知道的问题 回答说 你只是反复听到这些话而已。 两者都朝着同一个方向发展 这既是一个挑战，也像是什么…… 直接出去吗？有什么事发生吗？ 正确的？ 我认为大多数问题都与此有关。 就像通常存在一种假设一样 就像 是啊，但如今 事情糟透了，就是这样。 他们说。 是的。我的意思是，你只有这个 暗流。这几乎就像我 我有时会担心这件事，当我 教授这些主题的科学知识 普遍感觉还可以，但是…… 这是远古时代的科学。 比如今天 当应用程序拥有控制权时 一切都像没人出去一样。 我们现在该怎么办？ 有时我会求助于井 看起来像这些团体和事物 就像我们刚才在谈论这些俱乐部一样。 它们仍然在外面。你仍然可以 多走出去，认识更多的人。 活动。 是的。诸如此类的活动 途径。它们通常效果很好。 与此同时，我必须 承认世代更迭 将会改变，这些人 经历将与……不同 我这一代人的经历。所以，我 从很多方面来看，这最终会变成 难以表达的挑战 向人们普及科学知识，但也要用一种方式去做。 这表明你积极回应。 并且意识到任何 感觉像是这一代人，但事情已经发生了。 现在情况有所不同了，有时需要一段时间 虽然想知道真正拥有的是什么 改变了。我确实认为这些学生 减少外出次数。我觉得他们喝酒 较少发生。我认为他们是，他们不是。 花时间在同一地点进行社交活动 他们正在以这种方式更多地互动 这项技术可能对某些人有所帮助。 人们，而且这可能真的会造成影响。 对其他人来说很难，所以…… 你知道我努力以身作则。 嘿，就像我花时间闲逛一样 和一群人在一起，这很困难。 我被拒绝了，你知道我当时有多兴奋。 学校女友甩了我，但我还是结束了。 一切都还好，嗯，我希望其他方面也一样。 人们可能会对此产生共鸣。 眼镜里的信息。 爱它。而且我还听到……嗯……也许 不要只是报名参加某项活动，而是要认真对待。 组织者。 是的。是的。我喜欢这个。我喜欢这个。 就像你可以举办野餐或派对一样 呃 我在戴维斯读研究生的时候， 呃，我经常没能成功，因为我当时在…… 实验室，但是，嗯，每个星期五都有一个 即兴沙滩排球比赛。 哦，那太棒了。然后人们 会去……那里有个泰国人 那是一家既是餐厅又是酒吧的店。 那个夜晚有时会以第二天结束。 早晨。前面有一家纹身店。 街对面那家关门的店叫 美国风情画。 哦，是的。 是的。有些人纹了身。 不推荐，绝对不要。 喝醉后去纹身。可能根本就不会 去做你想做的事。但是……（笑声） 但是，但是，那是每个星期五，而且 只有一条规则，那就是你必须…… 至少尝试去做这类事情 就像海滩上的障碍物一样 排球。你不能就这么打它。 （笑声） 无论你表现得多么糟糕，都无关紧要。 你知道， 你必须完成这三件事。 然后大家就都去吃泰国菜了。 有些人会…… 如果他们喝了酒的话。有人会 他们喝了很多酒，他们肯定 喝了。 这真是太酷了。任何人 有可能。 是的。这类事情经常发生。 而且几乎没做任何计划。那是 一封刚刚发出的电子邮件 而且没有一个人负责。那是 只是有点集体主义的成分。是的。 他们确实很喜欢烹饪比赛 事情发生的地方 你们会在某人家里见面， 每个人都得带上类似…… 特定的菜肴，然后每个人都会 试试吧。我毕业时根本没时间。 学校。我一直在工作。我 会抽出时间来做这些事 偶尔会去，而且很有趣。 这些事情做起来都超级容易。 是的， 你不需要具备任何真正的运动天赋。 能力或烹饪能力，相信我。 嗯，我觉得有很多事。 这方面的机会，但障碍 如果真的是为了人们，那它就必须在那里。 他们做这些事不是因为我 我觉得这只是下意识的反应。 技术 有拉力。 嗯，我们可以说这是手机的问题。嗯， 但我们也可以说，这无所谓。 正在你的电视上播放。我的意思是，有很多 如今人们选择留下的原因有很多。 二三十年前，这些根本不存在。 前。我希望这条信息能够 就像你知道帮派一样产生共鸣 无论是娱乐还是其他方面 公司或它们的应用程序 试图让你远离现实 社会化。年轻人，不是吗？ 比如叛逆之类的？反抗 你知道的。确切地。就像这些 团体。走出去，再次与人见面 人。我觉得它会回归。 我真的愿意。我认为熊猫 感觉就像是一场漫长的…… 疫情后遗症，我们只是…… 我们忘记了社交的这一部分 建筑，但是，它正在回归。 它什么也没发生。我们仍然 社会性动物，我们也有这些 额叶肥大。即使你 不想出门 与人交往时，你可以…… 督促自己去做。嗯，还有我 我觉得，嗯，我觉得这挺不错的。 极好的。非常感谢！ 你所做的工作。这非常勇敢。它非常 勇敢是因为它直面挑战 我的一些长期理论， 你知道，我仍然非常看好他 进化论中很大一部分 生物学和心理学文献。我现在 必须通过这些新方法进行过滤。 发现。嗯，但是你已经创建了你的 基本上是开辟了一个全新的领域。呃，这是…… 当然，我们会提供您的书籍。 一个链接，嗯，你的作品是这样的 很受欢迎，而且我喜欢这种乐观主义。 它闪耀在每一次互动中。 我相信人们都注意到了这一点。 你不是个悲观厌世的人，你是 一个解决问题的人。非常感谢！ 这里的时间。很多人会感谢你的。 双方都是恋爱中的人。你学到 有些东西可以用来保护你，你知道的。 了解你的关系 改善人际关系，让自己变得更好，嗯， 对于那些正在寻找 合作伙伴或只是观察者 他们周围的世界让他们感到满足，他们也乐于生活在这样的世界里。 他们会受益的。 非常感谢。非常感谢 你。 非常感谢你们的邀请。 感谢您收看今天的节目。 与保罗·伊斯特威克博士的讨论。到 了解更多关于他的作品，并找到 他的著作《进化纽带》的链接： 爱与联结的新科学 请查看节目笔记中的链接 标题。如果你正在向 andor 学习 如果您喜欢这个播客，请订阅。 欢迎访问我们的 YouTube 频道。那是一个 这是支持我们的绝佳零成本方式。在 此外，请关注播客 点击两个页面上的关注按钮 Spotify 和 Apple。在 Spotify 上也是如此。 苹果公司，你们就让我们自己决定吧。 五星好评。你现在可以离开了 我们在 Spotify 和 Apple 上都发表了评论。 也请查看赞助商。 开头就提到了， 在今天的节目中。那就是 支持本播客的最佳方式。如果你 如果您有任何问题或意见，请随时与我联系。 播客、嘉宾或话题 您希望我考虑一下 Huberman Lab 播客，请把那些 在 YouTube 评论区。我愿意 请阅读所有评论。对于那些你们来说 还没听说过的，我有一本新书。 出柜。这是我的第一本书。 它的标题是《协议：操作手册》。 人体手册。这是 我一直在创作的那本书 超过五年，而且这是基于更多 超过 30 年的研究和 经验。它涵盖了以下协议： 从睡眠到运动的一切 与压力控制方案相关的 专注力和动力。当然，我 提供科学依据 适用于所包含的协议。这 本书现已开始预售。 protocolsbook.com。 在那里你可以找到各种链接。 供应商。你可以选择你喜欢的那个。 最喜欢。这本书的名字是…… 协议，操作手册 人体。如果你还没有 在社交媒体上关注我的人，我是 Huberman Lab 在所有社交媒体上 平台。这就是 Instagram，X， Threads、Facebook 和 LinkedIn。以及 我在所有这些平台上讨论科学。 以及一些科学相关工具，其中一些 与以下内容重叠 Huberman Lab 播客，但其中大部分 与以下信息不同： Huberman Lab 播客。再说一遍，是 Huberman Lab 在所有社交媒体上 平台。如果你还没有这样做的话 订阅了我们的神经网络 新闻简报，神经网络 订阅电子报是免费的月刊。 包含播客的简报 摘要以及我们所说的 协议文件格式为 1 至 3 页 涵盖从操作方法到所有内容的 PDF 文件 优化睡眠，如何优化 多巴胺，故意暴露于寒冷环境中。我们 制定一套基础健身方案 其中包括心血管训练和 阻力训练。所有这些都是 完全免费。你 只需访问 hubmanlab.com，然后进入 右上角的菜单选项卡，滚动 向下滚动到“订阅简讯”页面，然后输入您的信息 电子邮件。而且我应该强调，我们确实如此。 不要与任何人分享你的邮箱地址。感谢 再次感谢你与我一起参与

02:50:00 - 02:50:15

英文原文
today's discussion with Dr. Paul Eastwick. And last, but certainly not least, thank you for [music] your interest in science.
中文译文
今天与保罗博士的讨论 伊斯特威克。最后，但绝对不是 至少，感谢你的音乐。 对科学感兴趣。

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  1. 1Science of Attraction, Compatibility & Romance｜YouTube

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